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"Our government is dysfunctional.  Everyone can see that.  And that is why our Party, the Republican Party, demands that the President and Vice-President must resign immediately so that the Speaker of the House, as new President, can solve this economic crisis with the cooperation of Congress."

Oh, don't worry -- it hasn't happened yet.  It would probably never happen -- I think.  But it could happen.  All that stands between that and this are our tattered political customs, our waning sense of what's "fair" in politics -- and that is increasingly like wearing armor made of tissue paper.

If you believe that the bottom line is that, in the end, Democrats must give way in order to protect the economy, then you believe that this Republican gambit would have to be allowed to succeed.  Ditto with anything else you could imagine: elimination of abortion, elimination of the Voting Rights Act, etc.  If you treat the Republicans like hostage takers, they will be more than happy to take hostages.

We are engaged in a negotiation with people who are either sociopathic imbeciles or who know how to do a fine imitation of ones.  If you act like we have no power, then they will act like we have no power, and the fact that they don't call for Obama and Biden to resign is simply a matter of their not wanting to develop a bad reputation.  I don't actually see why that stops them, though; for us to cave into the Republicans would be, among other things, bad politics.

So please, fellow Kosters -- don't make this into a contest over who does and who does not has "common sense," about who wants to avert economic disaster and who wants to embrace it.  All of us have lines that we would not cross to get a deal.  There are always fates worth then an economic disaster.  I hope that to prove that I need do no more than ask you about your emotional response to the diary title and introductory block quote were.  (Now, some of you may be so pissed off that you will say below that you'd welcome a President Boehner.  Please don't go down that path; I don't have the patience for it right now.)

I hate to take my friend Crashing Vor to task (especially as this was not really the point of his Rec Listed diary, but wealthy Republicans will be just fine if the government shuts down.  They have advisors that make sure that they are protected in such situations, as I discussed last night.  To win this debate, we don't have to scare them about economics, we have to scare them about politics.  Otherwise, what prevents the specter I present above?

Various suggestions have been made: we could call for the markets to be closed if there is no resolution of the crisis by July 31 -- so that people who want to bet on a brief plunge in stock prices are confused and hampered.  We can call for legislation that would confiscate all investment profits made on bets on economic collapse (on the grounds that they would likely result from inside information.)  We can demand our own reforms as a price of default -- be a little unreasonable by demanding federal preemption of new state rules that make voting impossible.  Do things that the public will sympathize with, respect, and appreciate.

But let's stop calling those of us who want to risk an economic calamity -- only if necessary as an alternative to something worse -- as hotheads and fools.  Unless you read the title to this diary and said to yourself "well, if that's what they demand, that's what we'll have to do," you too have your line that you won't cross.  Let's join together now and shout what we can agree: that unreasonable Republican demands are the threat to the economy.

President Obama addresses the nation in two hours.  Let's hope that he understands this.  He too has a line that he won't cross.  Once we establish that, then it's just a matter over whether avoiding his and Biden's resignations is more important than avoiding a massacre of entitlements.  I think that they're both important.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Please stop sweetening the deal, Dems! (48+ / 0-)

    It only encourages them and their addiction to sugar.

    In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

    by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:02:52 PM PDT

    •  but... (8+ / 0-)
      We are engaged in a negotiation with people who are either sociopathic imbeciles or

      There's no "either". They are.

      Republicans are slumlording America!!

      by Fe Bongolan on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:36:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Proof: they obviously believe that being elected (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover, Misterpuff, falina, incognita

        to a minority position in the House makes them more important than the President and all the people who voted for him.

        Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

        by RJDixon74135 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:23:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's what I can't understand. These (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lissablack, Seneca Doane

          nutjobs were elected by thousands of people and the Prez was elected by tens of millions.  They are not his equal and my reaction to the way these elected officials speak to him and of him is disgust.  They are not fit to be in the same government he is.  I mean Wilson, Walsh, DeMint, Alito and any others who speak of him with such disrespect and lack of civility.
          These people should be role models to our kids and they are more childish than 6 year olds.

          Character is who you are when no one is watching.

          by incognita on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 10:16:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I would suggest that they simply could be (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Misterpuff, blueoasis, JugOPunch

        sociopaths and/or imbeciles. Or both.

        And some (Cantor) could be sociopaths while other (Teabaggers) could be imbeciles. That makes it harder to manage them because the sociopaths disdain the imbeciles, and the imbeciles haven't a clue what is REALLY going on.

        And then the Clown in Chief is trying to teach them all to play Adagio in g minor for strings and organ, when he himself is intoxicated much of the time.

        There are many options. I wouldn't limit myself to just the one.

        © grover. My sockpuppet is a fuzzy blue muppet.

        by grover on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:38:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, I don't think they'd agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Seneca Doane

      even to that. You think they really want to be responsible for solving this big shitty pile of problems? No, they don't.

      If Obama and Biden resigned, they could run again for election in 2012. And they'd beat President Boehner like a rented mule.

    •  "We do not negotiate with hostage-takers." (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Seneca Doane, lissablack

      That's how the US used to deal with hostage situations.

      The position was always the same:  If you harm even one of those hostages, we will send in the SWAT team in full force.  There are exactly two ways out of this for you: in handcuffs or in body bags.  Your choice.

      "Negotiating" was conducted by specially trained police offers or FBI agents, and was intended to do nothing more or less than wear the hostage-takers down so they could be arrested peacefully.  And the option of letting the terrorists kill a few hostages and then walk out of there as free as birds while issuing proclamations and manifestos, did not exist.  

      Yes, this occasionally resulted in a few dead hostages, but those situations also resulted in dead terrorists, and the the result was an effective deterrent to hostage-taking.  

      If I'm not mistaken, the Israeli military and law enforcement still use this approach, and nobody in their right mind dares to f--- with them.

      So that's exactly what we need to do here.

      Politely inform Boehner and the rest of 'em that there are two ways out of this for them:  in the political equivalent of handcuffs or body bags, and we are not going to let them walk out of there as some kind of cult heroes.  

      It may result in a few dead hostages.  

      By which I mean, some kind of economic dislocation or partial crash.  But at that point we declare a state of emergency and use emergency powers to make whole the "small guys & gals," such as seniors whose retirement accounts went down the toilet in the midst of the fight.  

      The only thing you NEVER do is give in to hostage-takers' demands.  

      That means taking a tough line and not being swayed by a bunch of weepy-woo that adds up to letting terrorists walk.

      Tough WINS.  Weak LOSES.

      "Mr. Speaker, this is Captain O'Malley of the SWAT team speaking.  You have five minutes to surrender peacefully."

    •  and in case I didn't say it already.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Seneca Doane

      .... you're f---ing brilliant.   Again.  

      •  You know ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        that just never gets old.  Thanks, G2G!  I'm glad you're on our side.

        In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

        by Seneca Doane on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 12:03:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm honestly interested (19+ / 0-)

    in what those who would accept default as a potential solution think the discussions will look like on Aug.3 or 4th.  

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:11:17 PM PDT

    •  We call for a "clean vote." (13+ / 0-)

      The stock markets will be way down -- and we'll be noting that investors have been using this as an opportunity for value shopping, profiting while the economy burns.  Obama has already set forth the narrative of him as reasonable and Dems as reluctantly following him.  We have to let people know that we dedicate ourselves to taking back the wrongful fruits of speculation.  It should play well.

      But my other answer to you: if you take that approach, what is wrong with their saying exactly what I suggested in the block quote?  They know that you're willing to do anything to deal.  With your experience, what does that tell you to expect?

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:19:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "We" can call for (15+ / 0-)

        anything we want -- in the meantime, many folks who can't recover, won't recover -- like those on fixed incomes.  A two day shutdown and global reaction does not recover in a day.

        There remains too many baggers who don't give a shite.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:24:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We introduce legislation to help them (6+ / 0-)

          We come up with a snappy name for the group and dare the Republicans to kick them while they're down, when they were the ones who caused the problem.

          But you didn't answer my last question.  Do we agree to, say, a constitutional amendment overturning Roe in order to get a badly needed deal?

          I say "no" -- sometimes you just let the chips fall where they may.

          In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

          by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:28:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've seen too many (6+ / 0-)

            negotiations to go off the deep end at this point.  To suggest that something like Roe would be on the table and Obama and/or the Dems would cave is ludicrous.  What that suggests to me is that anyone who is not pushing for default must be naive or a "clap louder" groupie.  

            And the chips will be falling on the elderly on fixed income and those depending on SS disability checks and combat pay and veterans pay, etc.  

            Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

            by gchaucer2 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:36:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What makes you think they want a deal? (9+ / 0-)

              Please take a look at my diary from last night.  Their sponsors will do just fine, buying stocks low, reaping a risk premium from bonds.  And what do they care for those on fixed incomes?  Fox will convince half of them that it was our fault anyway.

              If we're the only ones who can get hurt by a failure of a deal, then why can't Republicans put Roe on the table?  Because "saving babies" (as they call it) will look bad?  We've already crossed the line of them no longer seeming reasonable.  Now we have to figure out how to make them afraid to follow through with it.

              The only time when we are not hitting them squarely in the nose right now should be when we are kicking them squarely in the groin.  Anti-windfall legislation, now!

              In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

              by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:42:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I have a 2 part plan for dealing with this debt (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SoCalSal, falina

            ceiling mess and every other mess that comes up between now and January 2012:

            Step 1 - back Obama to the hilt.

            Step 2 - attack Republicans at every opportunity.

            Not snark btw.

            `You needn't go on making remarks like that, ... they're not sensible, and they put me out.'

            by seanwright on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:06:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  and how many of those baggers (6+ / 0-)

          who don't give a shiite are the same folks who are on fixed incomes?

          boggles the mind, doesn't it?

          hope springs eternal and DAMN is she getting tired!

          by alguien on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:44:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I got into an argument with a (6+ / 0-)

            teabagger today who has kidney replacement health issues. He just graduated and he can't find a job. I asked him why he would vote against his best interests and he told me he has "Philosophical" issues with the democratic party. Couldn't believe it. The kid's got no job, insurance is going to run out, and he's not going to be able to get his immuno suppression meds but he votes for the guys that don't want him to live. I lost hope for this country today after talking to him.

            This comment may not be reproduced or excerpted on other sites without my express written permission.

            by psilocynic on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:51:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I worry about the people who are retired (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane, alguien

            or about to retire with IRAs and 401ks that are just barely enough.

            If the value of these plummet, these retirees don't have time for the market to rebound. They can lose years and years of earnings and contributions in one fell swoop.

            1999, they lost money;, 2001, they lost money; 2009, they lost money; now, again, 2011, they're going to lose money again?

            It's so grossly unfair.

            Thank God (and the Dems, the AARP and the rational citizens of the United States) that GWB wasn't able to convert social security into market-based funds.

            © grover. My sockpuppet is a fuzzy blue muppet.

            by grover on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:45:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  What about the dollar? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover

        And how long will it take for the dollar to regain it's buying power? Would that happen before or after the warehouses run dry of product? Night now the USD is trading against the CNY 1:6.446. What happens to our economy when that ratio hist 25% Is default worth not being able to buy goods and services?

        This comment may not be reproduced or excerpted on other sites without my express written permission.

        by psilocynic on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:30:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So should Obama and Biden agree to resign (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jfromga, psilocynic, fizziks, esquimaux, PhilJD

          immediately if the Republicans demand it as the price of a deal?

          In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

          by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:34:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not at all. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane, Nulwee

            I have a tattoo on my arm in Greek. It translates to (roughly) "if you have to crawl to live, stand and die". I just feel uncomfortable making that decision for others, is all. If I were POTUS, I'd tell them all to fuck off. I'm not sure that's the responsible thing to do. Also, you'd have to consider and weigh the potentialities of such a decision. Would it be in the best interest of the country long term to put them in power? If Obama is guided by the 4 laws of robotics (yes there are four) like I think he is, he wouldn't agree to that.

            This comment may not be reproduced or excerpted on other sites without my express written permission.

            by psilocynic on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:44:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Republicans are violating the zeroth law (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NearlyNormal

              as we speak.  So if Obama wouldn't resign, then we have to reconcile ourselves to the possibility of no deal -- and let's stop slamming those of us who already accept that it's a possibility.

              I acknowledge and appreciate your sensitivity to making such decisions for others, but in some cases the answer is to GO ON OFFENSE!

              In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

              by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:47:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, default is a distinct possibility. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Seneca Doane

                That much I know. I don't know how feasible are the suggestions of your earlier diary, i.e., shutting down the stock exchange and capturing profit taking. But I give you good marks for proposing them.

                The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little. -FDR

                by SoCalSal on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:18:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Will you agree to resign (0+ / 0-)

            as a blogger if you are wrong?

             Your premise is a bit ridiculous. But have fun with it.

            you just can not pretend like spitting in the face of some progress, because it is 'not enough ' is going to get you more progress

            by missliberties on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:56:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'll grant that more pressure would be made (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seneca Doane

        to resolve a federal shutdown than the Minnesota shutdown. But the parallel exists, and Governor Dayton blinked first.

        If Boehner can't work with Pelosi to get sufficient votes to pass something without a balanced budget amendment now, I'm not confident that he could get votes after default either.

        The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little. -FDR

        by SoCalSal on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:35:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  As I heard one (8+ / 0-)

      financial analyst say on CNN, asking what August 3rd looks like is like asking what you'll do after you commit suicide.

    •  The Rs will be peeing their pants (0+ / 0-)

      because Wall Street, the banksters, and the Kochs will be ready to cut their heads off. Not that the Kochs will be hurt, they've got their contingency plans made and like Cantor, will make money off the default.

      And the poor and middle class will finally be in the streets with pitchforks and torches.

      I don't see the default as a potential solution, just a possible one.

      Out in the west Texas town of El Paso...

      by falina on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:02:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wall Street will make money off this (0+ / 0-)

        I addressed that in my diary of last night.

        In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

        by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:14:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't give them any MORE crazy ideas n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wayoutinthestix, commonmass, Nulwee

    2012 bumper sticker: GOP = Greed.Oppression.Poverty

    by Barbie02360 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:13:13 PM PDT

  •  You saw the Reid deal as (11+ / 0-)

    "sweetened"?  I sure didn't.  I'm pissed red about no tax hikes - but also relieved that it didn't touch social insurance programs.  

    I guess it's important for me to disclose, here: I am beyond chagrined that budget issues (debt/deficits) were dragged into a debt ceiling debate.  I've always been in the "clean debt ceiling raise" camp.  What I've been able to read of Reid's plan counts heavily on ending the wars as an enumeration of its "cuts" (a brilliant foil, frankly, since the Republicans can't cry foul as their vaunted Ryan plan did the same thing).  Next to a clean debt ceiling raise, I think the Reid deal is close.  And it's probably the closest thing that could get through Congress - Obama endorsed it, Pelosi's behind it (which means she can deliver her Democrats), and it puts the onus on Boehner to get 25 Republicans for it to pass the house and avoid default.  It gives away not so much, frankly, and dooms Boehner politically by necessitating he gets in bed with Democrats.

    Just my opinion.  :)

  •  Who said this? (7+ / 0-)

    (Answer in my next comment.)

    “It is clear we must enter an era of austerity; to reduce the deficit through shared sacrifice.”
  •  There is nothing that can be done to appease (6+ / 0-)

    the Tea Party other than the total implementation of Grover Norquist's Randian fever-dream.

    There is no way out of a confrontation between fundamentally different conceptions of the state and in this confrontation people who depend on the state will suffer. There is no way around this.

    A default is catastrophic, and the evisceration of the state is even more catastrophic.

    But if the economic terrorism of the right works this time, it will be ingrained permanently in American politics, much to the Koch brothers' delight.

    Hard to see any upside there.

    The Democrats need to stop accommodating their clearly unhinged opponents and argue vociferously against the phony austerity narrative. Hard to do that when the president talks about "living within our means." What a mistake to embrace that right-wing rhetoric.

    "Soyez réalistes, demandez l’impossible" "Be realistic, demand the impossible." Graffiti from Paris, May 1968

    by absolute beginner on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:17:46 PM PDT

  •  I think we should take a page from Berthold Brecht (6+ / 0-)

    (Slight paraphrase, 'cause I don't have the exact quote here..Brecht was speaking about the German Democratic Republic...)

    "Perhaps it would be easier if the Government dissolved the People and elected another".

    If the Virgin Mary were alive and pregnant and living in Texas today, Rick Perry would find a way to deny her WIC and Medicaid. equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:19:33 PM PDT

  •  They are not psychopathic imbeciles. (6+ / 0-)

    The Teabaggesr were created by corporations. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many copies. And they have a plan.

    This comment may not be reproduced or excerpted on other sites without my express written permission.

    by psilocynic on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:22:27 PM PDT

  •  SD - Wall Street doesn't have the leverage (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cassandracarolina

    The House GOP don't fear Wall Street as much as they fear the Tea Party. I thought when we got down to the last few weeks Wall Street would pull some strings and their puppets would dance. I was wrong. The pressure from right wing radio and the Tea Party is for the GOP to not make a deal. Right wing pressure is overwhelming Wall Street, who would really like to see a deal done now.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:24:05 PM PDT

  •  Seems to me (0+ / 0-)

    that entitlements are off the table on this round. So that one's old news.

    One issue over strategy is important to keep in mind. The only time Republicans can take us hostage is when inaction has serious consequences, ie, government shutdown, debt default, etc.

    That doesn't take away from the argument you're making, I just think its important to note.

    Secondly, I think its also important to take a look at the power of voters in making sure this habit of hostage taking is ended. We will have to wait to do that at the ballot box so it won't have an immediate effect on this one. But the true test of whether or not Republicans will continue with this strategy when its available to them will be whether or not voters hold them accountable for it in November 2012. As a matter of fact, I think that's the only real remedy.

    •  It seems to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming

      that we don't know what the hell is or isn't off the table.  At this point, it's whatever Republicans say is off the table.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:31:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The only thing (0+ / 0-)

        you have with entitlements right now is "what ifs." Meanwhile, there are a couple of proposals on the table that don't touch them. They're the reality right now.

        So if you want to continue fighting a battle that - for now - is over, feel free. Or you could get in the game that's actually happening.

        ps, that was the least significant part of my comment. The rest had more to do with the actual premise of your diary. I'm sorry its the only thing you chose to respond to.  

        •  I agreed with the second paragraph (0+ / 0-)

          but possibly not with all of its arguable implications.

          In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

          by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:21:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  As Republican Governors and Legislatures (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      absolute beginner, Seneca Doane

      Limit the right to vote to the "right" kind of people.  

      I half expect them to start restricting the franchise to property owners, just as it was in 1787.  And I have no doubt the 5 Hacks on SCOTUS will uphold it.  After all, there is nothing in the 15th, 19th, or 26th Amendment about property.  It would be an indirect poll tax, in violation of the 24th Amendment, but don't expect the 5 Hacks to so hold.  That would enshrine Republican rule forever.

      "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

      by Navy Vet Terp on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:39:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wow.....what a rabbit hole we've gone down........ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee
  •  what is that line? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, NearlyNormal, Seneca Doane
    President Obama addresses the nation in two hours.  Let's hope that he understands this.  He too has a line that he won't cross.  Once we establish that, then it's just a matter over whether avoiding his and Biden's resignations is more important than avoiding a massacre of entitlements.

    Personally, I think his line is not getting a deal.  If he has a deal, he gets to cross it off his list, and ad it to his accomplishments list which will be sent out to prospective voters.  

    I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

    by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:29:43 PM PDT

    •  I hope for better than that from him (0+ / 0-)

      but it is just a hope.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:32:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not to psychoanalyze the president... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WheninRome, marty marty, Seneca Doane

        but in Meyers Briggs parlance, the president would be known as a strong "J" (judging - versus perceiving).  They look at the world as it is, rather than how it should be.  That's something he's proud of.  He calls it pragmatism.  Strong J's are frequently leaders, CEOs, and managers.  They are seldom artists.  

        Strong J's sometimes gloss over the details of the process in order to cross things off their list.  They say things like "Get to the bottom line".  

        My wife is one such person.  When we paint the walls, she'll splatter paint all over the ceiling and the baseboards, because she doesn't care how it looks, only that it got done.  And to be fair, as a strong "P" I'd still be painting that room, trying to get every brush stroke right.  That's why we're a good team.  

        If Obama doesn't have a counterweight to his tendencies on his staff, he'll keep this up until he leaves office.  

        And wonder why we're all not thrilled that he cut the corporate tax rate to zero, and eliminated the minimum wage and child labor laws when he GOT STUFF DONE!!!!!!!!  Look at my record!  Its a mile long!!!!!!

        I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

        by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:42:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ADDENDUM (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane

          I sort of screwed the above up.  There are three other dimensions to MB type analysis.  The one about seeing the world as it is is the T or thinking dimension, rather than intuiting.  The J is about wanting results over process.  

          I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

          by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:44:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm an INTJ........ IIRC. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane
            •  close (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Seneca Doane

              ...intp here.  

              I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

              by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:19:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  INTJ's are the smallest cohort (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nada Lemming

                as I remember.

                •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                  I fluctuate between E and I and J and P.  Sometimes I get different scores, depending on how I feel that day, so that's why it really isn't useful to diagnose a politician.  

                  I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

                  by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 08:38:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •   I always get the same result. (0+ / 0-)
                  •  INTJ (0+ / 0-)
                    As an INTJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you take things in primarily via your intuition. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things rationally and logically.

                    INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.

                    With Introverted Intuition dominating their personality, INTJs focus their energy on observing the world, and generating ideas and possibilities. Their mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it. They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas. Their need for closure and organization usually requires that they take some action.

                    INTJ's tremendous value and need for systems and organization, combined with their natural insightfulness, makes them excellent scientists. An INTJ scientist gives a gift to society by putting their ideas into a useful form for others to follow. It is not easy for the INTJ to express their internal images, insights, and abstractions. The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand. However, the INTJ is driven to translate their ideas into a plan or system that is usually readily explainable, rather than to do a direct translation of their thoughts. They usually don't see the value of a direct transaction, and will also have difficulty expressing their ideas, which are non-linear. However, their extreme respect of knowledge and intelligence will motivate them to explain themselves to another person who they feel is deserving of the effort.

                    http://www.personalitypage.com/...

          •  Addendum addendum. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane

            Introvert/Extrovert,
            iNtuitive/Sensory,
            Thinking/Feeling, and
            Judging/Perceiving.

            J is not about results over process.

            grieving citizen of the murdered Republic, unrepentant rebel against the Empire.

            by khereva on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:14:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

              I was doing it from memory.  

              But yes, the J indicates someone isn't about thinking too much about process, just wanting to get to a decision because ambiguity bothers them.  

              Hence, if my wife wants to paint the bedroom and I'm not home, she paints the bedroom and doesn't bother herself with things like drop cloths and tape.  She needs to get shit done.  When I tell her about something I've been thinking about

              I am INTP.  I frequently go on vacations where I don't have a destination in mind.  

              Anyways, I was trying to future this out in my mind while I typed.  it's interesting but certainly not scientific and doesn't prove anything.  

              I just think the president sounds like my wife, in that he tends to list what he's done as a laundry list, rather than as a series of concepts or ideologies that he follows.  

              I so wish you were right, but sorry, clapping louder doesnt do anything in real life except confuse my dog. -dark daze

              by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:17:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You can't assign MB rating to someone else. (0+ / 0-)

          One has to do the test and answer the questions honestly.

          And none of the 4 components can exist without the other 3 in play and make any sense. They are interdependent.

  •  Pay individuals first... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Seneca Doane

    Geithner is the one that decides what will be paid when we start taking in less than we are scheduled to pay.  The dollars that get paid first need to be the ones that go directly into the economy....social security, medicare, wages.  Maybe Halliburton, sorry, Xe, can wait 30 days.  Those who reaped record profits out of our GDP need to be last on the list.  This is a matter of fairness that the Obama administration alone controls.

  •  14th amendment...again! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nada Lemming, WheninRome, Wolf10

    "Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
    Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

    Wouldn't standing in the way of the debt ceiling raise, and causing a default in national debt be an impeachable offense?

  •  Nah, Boehner & Cantor should resign, (0+ / 0-)

    their poll ratings are even lower than Obama/Biden and B&C are more expendable, more readily replaced.

    SD, your point here goes over my head. So far no one is talking about resignations (that comes after default). Prioritizing the points of Boehner's and Reid's proposals would be useful to me.

    I'm glad the Grand Bargain is off the table, and extension of the Bush tax cuts, and entitlement cuts.  I draw the line on a balanced budget amendment, a two-thirds majority to raise taxes, and a short term agreement that would dredge up another messy deficit ceiling negotiation before 2013. I could probably accept some spending caps (depending; some analysts say caps don't work anyway) and another damn commission as long as the commission isn't granted too much authority.

    The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little. -FDR

    by SoCalSal on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:09:08 PM PDT

    •  The point is that if we need to avoid a default (0+ / 0-)

      and Republicans put the full onus on us to avoid one, they can demand anything.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 06:26:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is one thing wrong with your premise (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WheninRome, esquimaux, Seneca Doane

    It is not a binary choice, as DDay says here.

    There is the 14th amendment option.

    And the Treasury bond destruction option.

    Coin seignorage.

    And the get out of the way I need to save the country option, defended here by two law professors.  

    Obama wants a deal above all else.  Any deal, as has been clear while we watch one line in the sand after another disappear.  But come August 2 and there is no deal, he had better take one of these other options or he'll take us all into the ditch.  Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism has been on the case for a while, and also speculates on this scenario:

    Remember, we have both Geithner and Bernanke again in powerful positions, and both went to extreme efforts to prevent damage to the financial system. Why are they merely handwringing at such a critical juncture? Might they have a trick or two up their sleeve?
    ...
    The volume of margin calls on Black Monday and Tuesday were putting serious pressure on the Treasury market, which was beginning to seize up. ... So keeping the Treasury markets liquid was a key priority in stabilizing the markets.

    Japan is a military protectorate of the US. The Fed called the Bank of Japan and told it to support the Treasury market. The BoJ called the Japanese banks and told them to buy Treasuries. Sumitomo and the other Japanese banks complied.

    I could see the same phone call being made again in the event of a default or downgrade. First, the yen is already at 78 and change, which is nosebleed territory from the Japanese perspective. The BoJ intervened once in the recent past when the yen got slightly above this level. Purchases of Treasuries is a purchase of dollars, and done on big enough scale would help lower the yen. Second, if you buy the hedgie view, buying in the face of forced (as in AAA mandate driven) and not economically motivated selling means this trade would have near term upside.

    Is this scenario likely? I have no idea. Is it possible? Absolutely.

    More on what could happen next from Yves here:

  •  I'm no longer sure this is true: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Seneca Doane
    All of us have lines that we would not cross to get a deal.

    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

    by PhilJD on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:33:39 PM PDT

  •  whats your line (0+ / 0-)

    mine is 1 trillion in non-discretionary and no change in entitltlement beneifts.

    What's yours?

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:46:53 PM PDT

  •  I find shouting at walls pretty effective. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.Emerson’s “Self Reliance”

    by JugOPunch on Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 07:36:38 PM PDT

  •  I think the idea of Boehner as president is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Seneca Doane

    the funniest thing I have read in months because that is what would happen if Obama and Biden resigned.  BWAhahhahahah.  Yup, I'd just love to have a damn drunk with his hand on the nuclear button.  Right on!

    Character is who you are when no one is watching.

    by incognita on Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 10:19:15 AM PDT

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