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Well, that was a crappy weekend. Today the rank and file in each party get to enjoy the compromise.

The Krugman piece from today (The President Surrenders) can be discussed in diaries by bobswern and Lawrence Lewis.

A deal to raise the federal debt ceiling is in the works. If it goes through, many commentators will declare that disaster was avoided. But they will be wrong.

NY Times editorial:

There is little to like about the tentative agreement between Congressional leaders and the White House except that it happened at all. The deal would avert a catastrophic government default, immediately and probably through the end of 2012. The rest of it is a nearly complete capitulation to the hostage-taking demands of Republican extremists. It will hurt programs for the middle class and poor, and hinder an economic recovery.

It is not yet set in stone, and there may still be time to make it better. But in the end, most Democrats will have no choice but to swallow their fury, accept the deal, and, we hope, fight harder the next time...

President Obama could have been more adamant in dealing with Republicans, perhaps threatening to use Constitutional powers to ignore the debt ceiling if Congress abrogated its responsibility to raise it. But this episode demonstrates the effectiveness of extortion. Reasonable people are forced to give in to those willing to endanger the national interest.

Democrats can look forward to the expiration of the Bush tax cuts next year, and will have to make the case in the 2012 elections for new lawmakers who will undo the damage.  

NY Times/Jeff Zeleny:

For Mr. Obama, the most imminent blessings are avoiding a default and delaying the next fight over raising the debt limit until after the 2012 election. (House Republicans wanted to have another debate early next year.) He also can present himself as a deficit-cutting president, even though a fair share of the $2.4 trillion in cuts is unpopular with his core followers.

But the fine print of the agreement makes clear that Republicans received more of what they demanded than did Mr. Obama, who acquiesced in his initial call for a balanced mix of spending cuts and new revenues, despite repeatedly trying to seize the bully pulpit to build support for his argument.

For many liberals, this concession — and the president’s unwillingness to make a more full-throated case for greater action to address joblessness and protect other Democratic priorities — could undermine legislative support for the deal and increase the challenge of motivating voters in 2012.

NY Times/Carl Hulse &  Helene Cooper:

But Obama administration officials are also aware of the precarious risk the president was running if he strikes a deal that Congressional Democrats find hard to swallow. Mr. Obama’s top political aides, including Vice President Joseph R. Biden and the senior White House adviser David Plouffe, were on the phone Sunday afternoon with Democratic leaders, who gathered in the Capitol Sunday afternoon to explore the outlook for the measure.
If Nancy Pelosi says she has enough votes, she has the votes (not yet said, though everyone trusts her to get them.) But Boehner? He is a weak leader with no control of his nutter caucus, so the senior members of the GOP House will have to pretend to be grown-ups for a couple of days. They won't fool anyone, though they might get this passed.

Chris Cillizza on winners:

President Obama: The president needed a deal of some sort to prove that he was capable of making the government work — even if it took until the eleventh (and a half) hour to strike the compromise. Liberals are likely to be deeply unhappy about the nature of the deal, which includes no increases in taxes or revenue. But remember that Obama’s target constituency in 2012 is not his base but rather independent and moderate voters. And those fence-sitters love compromise in almost any form.
and losers:
Liberals: As the basic framework of the deal emerged, liberals began voicing their discontent about a bargain that left their side wanting more. With no revenue in the initial phase of the legislation and Medicare cuts on the table in the second phase, there’s not much for the ideological left to celebrate.
Some rare self-reflection from the tea party:
But as a deal was being crafted in Washington on Sunday, it was unclear whether the public, or even members of the far-flung tea party bloc itself, would hold the fledgling movement responsible for the crisis that sent the country to the brink of default. The tea party could see victory quickly turn to defeat if more Americans blame it for pushing its agenda too far.

Even some tea party activists agree. They say the politicians who are rejecting compromise in the name of tea party principles are misreading the views of the movement itself. They worry that, if the public blames the tea party for a default, the tea party’s influence — and electoral fortunes — will suffer. And those activists worry that such an outcome could end the momentum in Washington to improve the nation’s fiscal health over the long term.

More winner and loser stuff from WaPo:
One senior Senate Democratic aide said that averting a default was a victory of sorts for Obama, “but when you look at the emerging details, spending cuts and triggers with no revenue, the president got rolled.”

Asked if the deal was “balanced,” as the president had required, former Obama White House economic adviser Jared Bernstein said: “Not by any stretch of the imagination.”

but see also:
But an official argued that the ultimate trigger was the Bush tax cuts, set to expire at the end of 2012. Obama would block extension of the cuts, either as a final act in office after losing the November 2012 election or as a safely reelected two-term president.
Bottom line:
Nonetheless, liberals were furious as the terms of the agreement came into focus Sunday, and yet another capitulation by Obama on economic policy threatened to further dampen enthusiasm among the core Democratic voters he will need to win reelection next year.

But, for a White House eager to improve its standing with centrist independents who have been fleeing Obama, even a losing deal can be a winning strategy.

Next up: GOP wanna-be presidential candidates weigh in after the fact, thereby lowering their stature even further. Has anyone lost sleep wondering what Tim Pawlenty thinks? Don't wonder about Michele Bachmann... she hates it.

Michael Yaki:

The unsung hero is Democratic Leader Pelosi. She stuck to her guns on protecting Medicare and Social Security beneficiaries. By leveraging the confusion in the circular firing squad that is the House GOP, she won exemptions to protect safety net entitlements - which means to avoid the default deep cuts mandated in the legislation, tax reform (and increases) will have to be on the table.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Don't let it get lost in the mix... (11+ / 0-)

    CareGiving Kos: More Options for Care-Givers from yesterday builds on the CareGiving Kos piece from last Wednesday.

  •  Miss me yet? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eeff, prodigal, msmacgyver
    You bet I cut the taxes at the top. That encourages entrepreneurship. What we Republicans should stand for is growth in the economy. We ought to make the pie higher.

    Dream, that's the thing to do (Johnny Mercer)

    by plankbob on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:43:32 AM PDT

  •  "The president got rolled." (14+ / 0-)

    That's a polite way to say it.  

    It really wasn't the President who got rolled though.  Just business as usual since 2001.

    Scream at me all you want, but he's not getting my vote next year.

    That's understandable when I realize that I can't feel my body.

    by prodigal on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:47:25 AM PDT

  •  "Surrender monkeys": not just a term of (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lavocat, prodigal, mdmslle

    derision directed by Republicans anymore.

    Persistent member of the Emmanuel Goldstein wing of the Democratic Party. President Obama can't make me eat my peas.

    by Superskepticalman on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:48:49 AM PDT

  •  If a republican president had been 'negotiating' (6+ / 0-)

    this deal, the democrats would not vote for it. this is simply astonishing... how a democratic president can do this....................

    the only thing democrats can say is that it's not worse than it is.

    Bah!

    "Say little; do much." (Pirkei Avot: 1:15)

    by hester on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:48:56 AM PDT

  •  Obama's target is independents, huh? (5+ / 0-)

    Well, motherfucker, you can count this soon-to-be-former Democrat as a newly-minted independent.

    Mission accomplished, asshole!

    And can you guess who this independent will be voting for in 2012?

    Hint: it's not gonna be you!

    " ... or a baby's arm holding an apple!"

    by Lavocat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:49:05 AM PDT

    •  who will you vote for? (8+ / 0-)

      serious question

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:54:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You didn't ask me but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wbgonne, Four of Nine

        Since Sen Sanders said it is time for a someone primary Obama, I hope he either jumps in or endorses someone. But if no one steps up, I will stay home. There is no way I will vote for Obama again.

        "IJDH provides the tools for people who care about Haiti to make a real difference on the ground."-- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton

        by allie123 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:05:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sanders isn't a Democrat. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JC from IA, PsychoSavannah, skohayes

          How can he run in a Dem primary?

          Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

          by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:12:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why would I care if it is called a primary challan (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            graywolf1948

            or third party challenge?

            "IJDH provides the tools for people who care about Haiti to make a real difference on the ground."-- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton

            by allie123 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:15:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sanders won't run a third party challenge (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gchaucer2, allie123, bythesea

              he's a terrific guy, but he won't do it. No one is going to, this year.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:24:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You sure? (0+ / 0-)

                I see Kucinich starting to write diaries directly attacking the president here and I wonder what he's up to.

                Not that he isn't kind of a joke at this point....but you said "no one" not "no one serious."

                Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

                by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:29:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  At this point why vote for Obama? (0+ / 0-)

                I am not sure if you mentioned the supreme court. I know some here have. Which as of now isn't enough. I have never not voted or voted 3rd party, never thought I would. But at this point I see Obama passing legislation a Republican would never be able to.

                "IJDH provides the tools for people who care about Haiti to make a real difference on the ground."-- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton

                by allie123 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:35:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  This may change when the economy worsens, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                diffrntdrummr

                unemployment soars even higher, Obama's hands are tied by this deal to do another stimulus/jobs program, and his approval numbers plunge. (I've already seen a Gallup poll that has Obama down to 41% approval.)

                That's why, when people like Cillizza say this deal is going to help Obama with centrists and independents, they are  dead wrong.

                It's still the economy, stupid, (and even more so for independents and moderates with no Democratic party loyalty) and austerity is going to tank the economy as it did in 1937 here and as it's doing in Great Britain and Spain and Greece now.

                It's very possible Obama, some months down the road, will be seen as unelectable, and primarying may be seen as the only way there is of even any chance of keeping the While House under Democratic control.

            •  You said he should "primary" obama. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm telling you that I don't think it's possible.

              Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

              by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:25:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I said SANDERS said that it is time for (0+ / 0-)

                someone to primary Obama.

                "IJDH provides the tools for people who care about Haiti to make a real difference on the ground."-- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton

                by allie123 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:29:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, you meant primary. (0+ / 0-)
                  Since Sen Sanders said it is time for a someone primary Obama, I hope he either jumps in or endorses someone.

                  Nowhere in your post is "third party."

                  Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

                  by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:32:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Who are you? You are why the democrats (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Four of Nine

                    are labeled "elitists."  Petty, stupid, points you think make you look smart. I wasn't writing a f@#king legal brief.

                    "IJDH provides the tools for people who care about Haiti to make a real difference on the ground."-- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton

                    by allie123 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:39:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Please calm down. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      skohayes

                      His questions may have seem pointless to you, but your comments aren't being completely clear or consistent in this subthread.  "Legal brief" or not, clear thinking is still acceptable to ask for.  Then when questioned on it you get furious and call him an elitist.  Everyone is pissed today, but you might want to take a break since this reaction makes little sense (unless you two have some previous history that explains it, of which I and others would be unaware).

      •  ABO (0+ / 0-)

        Anyone But Obama.

        Because the Dems have not learned from 8 years in the desert, I deem that they need more time there.

        And the Dems are too stupid and cowardly to primary Obama.  Never gonna happen.

        I will be voting for whatever Republican is nominated.

        Bye-bye, Democratic Party.  I'd like to say it's been fun.  But it has been anything but.

        " ... or a baby's arm holding an apple!"

        by Lavocat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:52:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, because voting Republican (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NYCteach

          always forces the party to the left? We'll show those Democrats! They won't take our vote for granted anymore!
           For an example, see how well that worked in the 2000 election, or in the 2004 election, when people couldn't get excited over John Kerry (obviously more to the left than Obama), so we got 8 years of Bush and a centrist Democrat for president in 2008.
          Your plan is working out great, for Republicans and right leaning indies.

          You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

          by skohayes on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 07:01:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Why vote? (0+ / 0-)

        If someone doesn't represent your interests, then why vote at all?  I am rather sick of having to choose the lesser of two evils.

        It's this "Well, son.  You ain't got anyone else to vote for, so shut up and vote for me because I'm vaguely less incompetent than the raving loon I'm running against.  Oh- and don't expect anything much from me except from long decided token social issues.  And platitudes.  God knows I've got lots of platitudes for you!"

        Democracy is often an indictment of the voting populace.

        by electricgrendel on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:04:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I left the Democratic party (9+ / 0-)

      years ago and became an Independent. I'm just embarrassed to be associated with such a bunch of gutless wimps. As an Independent, I have never voted for or supported a GOP candidate. I have many friends and family members who are also "Independents" but are really disenfranchised or frustrated Democrats. I'm sure their are "Independent" Republicans, but I would guess in much lower numbers.

      Obama is a fool. And a fraud. He thinks he can not just ignore, but rudely abuse his base and they will come home to poppa because as Rahm said, "they have no place else to go."

      Well, we do have someplace else to go. We can go to a third party candidate or stay home like much of the base did in 2010. It might be considered self defeating behavior, but a person can only take so much abuse before they say enough is enough. I expect abuse at the hands of the GOP. But, when my own party treats me that way, I will not help them, pay them and reward them with jobs for that abuse. I am not a masochist.

      It's time for progressives to get out of this abusive relationship with the Democratic party. The frustrated and angry right formed the Tea Party. Perhaps the angry and frustrated left should take a page from their playbook and start our own "movement".

      This Independent will finally be declaring his true independence from Obama and the Democratic party. Enough is enough!

      •  more... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skohayes

        Gallup: Conservatives 41%, moderates 36%, liberals 21%

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:25:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Where does the Tea Party rank? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jm214, msmacgyver, tb mare

          They are lower in percent than any of the above, and yet they are getting everything they want.

          "Whenever a fellow tells me he's bipartisan, I know he's going to vote against me."-- Harry S. Truman

          by irmaly on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:46:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Tea Party has shown that threats work... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tb mare, irmaly

            In the House, they reject all compromise and vote against their own party.  In elections, they threaten to primary anyone who doesn't pledge loyalty to TP agenda...whatever that might be.

            I don't think it's too late to organize a TP counterpart on the Left.  I'm not too thrilled with funny hats, but I could dig out my old Birkenstocks and probably find some tie-dye.

            May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. George Carlin

            by msmacgyver on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:19:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with much of what you say, but... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bythesea

        The tea party is well funded by corporate America.  Who would fund an equally left-wing progressive movement?  The unions are broke.  

        I agree that we need a movement that puts the pressure on the Democrats to start acting like democrats and move to the left (which would put most of them in the center if they did) and remember what the party stands for - or used to stand for:

        SS, Medicare, Medicaid and unions/labor, the middle class and working class and the least among us.

        •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

          I saw G2geek remarking that there should be a sort of equivalent Labor party within the Democrats pulling the party to the left in the same way the Teabaggers are pulling the GOP (and the country) to the right.  I wholeheartedly agree, but where would the funding originate?  As you say, I don't think the unions have enough funds available right now to fund such a movement.

      •  I no longer wish to be affiliated with losers (0+ / 0-)

        and cowards.  I am not a loser or a coward and I sure as hell do not expect to be represented by them either.  So, until there is a VIABLE Progressive Party in this nation (I have voted Green when I can), I WILL be voting Republican, if only to start getting rid of some of these gutless Democrats.

        Let me tell you, it felt GREAT voting Republican to get rid of Scott Murphy (Kirsten Gillebrand's old House seat) and it will feel GREAT voting Republican to get rid of Obama.

        I can't wait.

        " ... or a baby's arm holding an apple!"

        by Lavocat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:58:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Advocating voting Republican (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skohayes, tb mare

          is the most stupid response I can imagine.  Maybe you should just be a real rebel and stop voting altogether instead.  While you are at it you could stop participating in political blogs too.

          •  I could NEVER vote Republican (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bythesea, NYCteach

            I cannot stand Obama's capitulation but I get violently ill at the thought of a Republican president aiding the Congressional lunatics to abolish Medicare, to write viciously anti-women and anti-choice legislation, to re-establish DADT, to shut down Planned Parenthood, and lastly, to name more far-right Republicans to the Supreme Court.

            I will not donate to Obama or help the Democrats to get out the vote but I will vote for him because I don't see another choice. It is vitally important to keep a Republican out of the White House.

          •  Nah, I'd rather fuck with my former team (0+ / 0-)

            If there were a viable third party, I'd go there.

            NOT voting is unacceptable.

            And I am NOT voting for the Democrats again.

            So, the answer is easy.

            Besides, I'm in a high enough income bracket that whatever the Republicans do to America, I can survive.

            Plus, the Dems are only delyaing the inevitable at this point, whereas the Republicans are going to get us there in a hurry.

            Time to tear this fucker down.

            Cheers!

            " ... or a baby's arm holding an apple!"

            by Lavocat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 02:10:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Defense cuts = stock market investment (6+ / 0-)

    I know it sounds like a strange connection, but a large portion of the defense cuts are going to come from military retirement plans. The Defense Business Board is recommending that Congress get rid of our military retirement plan and save it with a substandard 401(k) program.

    Calls to Privatize Military Retirement.

  •  Why don't we have a President Pelosi for (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    graywolf1948, ratcityreprobate

    Gawd's sake?  She does more for the Dems than the so-called president.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:50:17 AM PDT

  •  It's encouraging (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wbgonne, graywolf1948

    to see so many kossacks at long last recognizing the fraudulent character of obama, and his treachery.

    Where now?  Primary challenge?  A third party candidacy?

    Hello, democracy in the US at the federal level is broken!  It doesn't matter whom we vote for, we still are stuck with the same toxic core policies, the same wars, the same accommodation of Wall St, the same supplication toward corporate interests.

    "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." -Jimi Hendrix

    by Four of Nine on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:50:54 AM PDT

    •  Not broken at just the federal level. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle, PsychoSavannah, One Opinion

      The corrupting influence of money is even more significant at the state and local level.  

      The entire system -- top to bottom -- is polluted by money and special interest influence.  Local governments have been giving away millions in tax abatement and special exemptions for the undelivered promise of minimum wage jobs, corporations write state laws and state legislators are, by and large, simply agents of the companies that own them.

      That's understandable when I realize that I can't feel my body.

      by prodigal on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:58:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, President Perry is most encouraged. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ratcityreprobate, skohayes

      Perhaps the most encouraged of all.

      •  Come on now (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wbgonne, Four of Nine, voroki

        The least you could do is give us something with "ponies", "adults in the room", and "ZOMG SCOTUS"

        •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

          It is clear from this weekend that self-styled "progressives" are on purity patrol.  Calls for the President's resignation and for opposing the President in the primary are numerous and nearly psychotic in their vehemence.

          I have no reason to believe that this minority will stop at anything in their pursuit of ensuring that the "right" kind of Democrat loses the next Presidential election.  Mr. Obama does not fit their definition.

          And, since I think there is reason to believe that Perry is the designated candidate for the GOP, the conclusion is obvious.

          •  "nearly psychotic" -- Thank you, doctor. (nt) (0+ / 0-)

            That's understandable when I realize that I can't feel my body.

            by prodigal on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:16:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, very nearly so. (0+ / 0-)

              Perhaps you should read them.

              •  i have to agree with you. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JC from IA, bythesea

                Although I've been very vocal against what's happening and what the president is doing, it's been quite hysterical around here.

                But the thing is, JC, people's lives are in the balance. Please consider that and give some leeway. People are scared. For some this is more serious than for others. I think we, all democrats, are disappointed with this less than good outcome. I'm sad that we didn't seem to get very much out of it.

                I'm very angry about it and I understand others may be more angry that me. And that anger is being vented.

                Don't disparage that. Its real and its raw. And yes, it can feel a bit hysterical compared to, maybe, how you feel. But "allow" people to vent. "Allow" them to express their legitimate anger. Its perfectly justified and understandable. Everyone deals with anger and disappointment differently.

                •  Well, I suppose it depends on one's convictions. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mdmslle, skohayes

                  The unfortunate fact of the matter is, we have a binary political system, and I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future.

                  So, anger needs to be properly channeled, and very carefully so, IMO.  President Obama did not create the situation he has been dealing with, despite what certain "progressives" are asserting; channeling the anger at him is pointless.  It changes nothing.  The same people that such thinking helped to elect to a majority in the House are still in the majority, no matter how much anger is vented at the POTUS.

                  The only thing that will be helped by such misguided venting is President's Perry's election prospects.  I, for one, do not think that is a good outcome, not for the Democrats, nor for the United States.

                  •  Your analysis is incorrect (0+ / 0-)

                    We most assuredly do NOT have a binary political system.  What we have is a unitary political system.

                    Choosing other alternatives is the only rational choice.  I for one will not lend legitimacy to this fraudulent system.

                    "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." -Jimi Hendrix

                    by Four of Nine on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:49:39 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  proper channeling of anger is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bythesea

                    important. I couldn't agree more.

                    But that is possible only after the intial shock wears off.

                    Imagine any other situation where a person is very emotionally invested: say a child.

                    Say you find out someone did something horrible to your child and the child is either harmed fro life or dead.

                    there's going to be an initial reaction that is very emotive. It won't be rational. It won't be channeled.

                    I'm saying, allow people time to vent. Some of (and I emphascize some) of the people who are most vocal are probably some of the ones who were most deeply "invested" in the president and this presidency. The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference. (some) people's investment can be measured by the amount of passion they display on being disappointed.

                    I once said to an ex who derided me sometimes for arguing with him so much: when i STOP arguing with you, then you should be worried. And indeed, when I decided to move on from the relationship, when I decided that he wasn't someone I wanted to be with in my life, the arguments STOPPED. Because I didn't give a shit. He (being the dumbass he was) actually said to me one day, "We're getting along so much nicer now". I thought, "Yea cuz I' already gone, dumbass".

                    •  You are certainly kind (0+ / 0-)

                      But outrage has been the dish du jour for the last 12-24 months here.  
                      It's getting very boring.
                      Yes, the deal didn't work out the way we wanted, but that's what happens when one of our three co-equal branches of government is run by insane ideologues that aren't interested in governing or what's best for the people.
                      This blog was so over the top for Obama after Edwards dropped out, there was no point in trying to have a dialogue with people, so a lot of information was simply ignored or tossed aside. Progressives wanted a savior, not a president.
                      Now that Obama has disappointed these progressives, they want to take their ball and go home, vote for Republicans (tantrum throwing by children), or find a primary opponent.
                      Daily Kos is turning into FDL ver 2.0

                      You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

                      by skohayes on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I love how expecting a democratic president (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            irmaly, jm214, ed k, Prairie Gal, tb mare

            not to capitulate at every turn is now termed purist.

            "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

            by voroki on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:47:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  By whom? (0+ / 0-)

              Certainly not by me.  Losing elections by not supporting sitting presidents in the name of your party is certainly purist, though.

              So is losing senate races, because you had to primary the Dem candidate to install a "better" Democrat.

              Say, how is Senator Sestak doing, by the way?

              •  LOL. I guess I misunderstood your statement (0+ / 0-)

                about "self styled progressives" being on "purity" patrol.

                "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

                by voroki on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:00:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I'd say you understood my statement just fine (0+ / 0-)

                  You just applied your own interpretation to it.

                  •  I can't wait to see the contortions you people (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tb mare

                    go through to defend Obama when he capitulates on letting he Bush tax cuts expire. It will be most entertaining.

                    "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

                    by voroki on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:07:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As I said. (0+ / 0-)

                      And, now, as if your purposeful misinterpretation were not enough for you, you predict for us all not only the future, by my reaction to it.

                      BTW, what is your current rank in the Dem Purity Patrol these days?

                      •  Yep, I predicted it and isn't it interesting that (0+ / 0-)

                        you won't say it won't happen or even say its not likely to happen. The fact that it isn't predictable says a helluva of alot doesn't it. Its a tax that americans largely support and all Obama has to do is say I'll veto it should the republicans  try and extend it. A complete no brainer and yet we have a president that we can't completely trust to stand against it. As for my rank, you tell me. You seem to be the one who's an expert on purity.

                        "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

                        by voroki on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:28:55 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  no. the system is broken. a primary (0+ / 0-)

      challenge is useless.. Third party is useless.

      What's going to happen is we will have a teahadist government in 2013. House, senate and presidency.

      that's what's going to happen as the teahadists in congress and our appararent inability to fight their hostage taking will plunge the country into a depression.

      we know that economically it will be far worse in 2012 than it is today.

      And by the end of 2013, we may very well see virtually everything we've come to rely on simply CUT.

      So the answer is simple. You know this going to happen. The best thing to spend you time and energy and money on is preparing for it. The good news is that the teahadist government, because of the overreach they will surely exert, will only last 2-4 years. (see: wisconsin et al)

      If you can get out of the country for two to four years, do it.

      If not, honestly, start planning now about how you will feed yourself and get clean water. I know this sounds wacky but the teahadists will privatize everything and slash funding for everything. They will bring their "constitutionalist" views into the government and everything will fall to the states that isn't "in the constitution". That includes many regulations by various federal departments: EPA, LABOR, FDA etc.

      Your food and water safety are most important so be sure to sure that up between now and 2013.

      Then consider electricity and communications.

      Then think about jobs. There won't be many and once the teahadists abolish all regulation of business, the jobs that remain will not pay well and you may not have very many workplace standards, including hours and overtime, benefits etc. try learning a trade over the next 18 months. Something useful. You might also want to learn how to hunt and fish.

      I know this sounds crazy. But unlike the crazies who stockpiled stuff because "obama was a socialist" (or something) we have seen FIRSTHAND what a tea party-run government would do.

      Do not waste you time or money with primary challenges. Or third party "protests". Vote the Dem, if your conscience allows, but PLAN for them to lose anyway. Plan for the worst case scenario.

      There's your answer.

    •  The Tea Party (0+ / 0-)

      needs to be counter-balanced by a vocal and just as forceful progressive group. The Democrats have to fear the progressives the way old time Republicans tremble before their Tea Party caucus.

      Nader is trying to round-up a progressive candidate to primary Obama, but so far no one is interested. Most look at a primary challenge to Obama as political suicide, at least for a Democrat. But, someone may step forward for the good of the country.

      The system is broken. I'm not so sure if it can be fixed at the ballot box, especially given the voter suppression and "black box" voting irregularities we've become accustomed to these past few years. I think we need to walk out of the Democratic Party and start a new movement. It may take a while to build an organization, but people have got to stop just talking about it and start organizing.

      •  you wont have to to this. (0+ / 0-)

        the 2013 teahadist takeover of the government and the subsequent agony it will cause to 98% of americans will itself bring about the change necessary to see a progressive movement in America.

        we're just a few years off. I'd say by 2013/2014 we'll see a major shift left. Assuming the economy is SO bad between now and 2012 that democrats get their asses handed to them AGAIN. I think there's a better than guaranteed chance of unemployment being 11+% by election day. If that happens, we lose big time. I don't see any other way Dems hold power, unless the party runs Bachmann or someone.

        The baggers are rolling dems and the only reason we averted a 4 trillion dolalr cut to federal programs THIS YEAR is because of democrats in the senate and a democratic white house. When they finally get all three branches, it will be devastating.

        BUT

        that devastation will lead to a full throated populist left. We'll have a good chance of taking back the house in 2014, with real progressives, no less. And possibly even the senate. By 2016, the right (as we know it today) will be history and will resemble the "conservatives" in Europe. They'll have to. If not, we take back the white house, possibly with a full on progressive president.

        The pain caused by a teahadist rule will likely wake people up abruptly. Including those who have voted against their own interests for years. Finally people will see the true motives of the GOP and how it hurt everyone except the richest 1%.

        Look at what happened in Wisconisin.

        •  Wow! This is an amazing prophecy from you! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mdmslle

          I have to agree with you wholeheartedly.  I think that it is sad in this country that Americans don't take their vote seriously.  Only fanatics do.  The reason we are in this mess is because Dems stayed home in 2010, don't forget that.  And from what I am reading on this board, they are planning on doing it again in 2012.  So your prophecy could very well come to past.  If Wisconsin hasn't shown Dems the damage not voting does, then I don't know what will.  What Wisconsinites are doing right now is hopefully what Americans will be doing in the future....Voting En Masse!

          •  Many Dems did stay home. Lots of reasons (0+ / 0-)

            for that but it wasn't the base that stayed home, angry as many of them were.

            In 2010 I canvassed the same neighborhoods I did in 2008. It wasn't disappointment with Obama that was a hinderance. It was not realizing the importance of midterm and state elections. I understand that as i once used to vote only in presidential elections and then never down ballot.

            It's education. They don't know it matters. Until it does.

    •  Never was a democracy, always a republic. (0+ / 0-)

      I wish people would quit mixing the two up.

      Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

      by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:22:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  oh and BTW (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not necessarily talking about "stockpiles". I'm saying: grow your own food. Raise your own meat (or hunt for it).

      Plant some nut trees or fruit trees in your yard. Favor drought resistant edible crops because water may not be in abundance or it may become very expensive once the teahadists "relegate that back to the states" and states (being money starved because the feds have slashed spending) privatize your local water treatment facility.

      Look into communal living where you can your share work and your money with others, living simply.

      Learn about alternative medicine treatments. Get healthy (as much as you can) now. Lose a few pounds. Or gain a few.

      That's what I mean. THINK about what you know the teahadists would do if they were in control of all three branches. Work to prevent that. But prepare in case we fail.

      •  I don't think (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mdmslle

        that survivalist tactics are going to be useful for a majority of us.  But I do think that we need to think in terms of community based alternatives for some social services.

        Most of us can't grow our own food in any significant quantities, nor can we ensure the protection of the water supply (I'm in Chicago, for example, where the growing season is about 3 months long, and few have room or time for any serious gardening).  

        That said, if one looks at what other organizations did in the absence of a working government - say, in the Gaza - I think there are templates that can be useful for social service provision.

        "never trust a rich man when he offers you a truce"

        by KibbutzAmiad on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:52:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  survivalist - blech (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KibbutzAmiad

          I hate that word. And it makes me hesitant to even post stuff like this cuz it sounds looney, even to me.

          I agree that many of us in major cities can't do those things (or at least presently aren't thinking about it), year round. But we still ought to be thinking about how.

          You may not be able to protect your water supply but you could buy a water purification system, even a portable one or a ionic swizel stick. We have to think about HOW we would provide for ourselves because honestly, that's the GOP mantra (you're on your own) and we may be closer to it that we want to believe.

          You're not helpless because you're in chicago. You can grow wheatgrass (healthy and full of nutrients, doesn't require lots of water or light) and various other things in your kitchen or on a balcony. There are community gardens. And canning. Beans are also easy to grow and you can do it on a stick. They're healthy too. Just because you live in a city doesn't mean you can't do some of this stuff. The time to research what's possible (and not) is now. Don't just accept that it can't be done just cuz you live in an urban environment.

          Further, establishing networks will be important too. For example I have a home in FL on 1/4 acre. I'm not even living in it right now. It could support multiple families. And food growth, if done smartly. Many progressives live in larger spaces than that. We need to be building these networks.

      •  This is really out there (0+ / 0-)

        Whether or not the teabaggers win the next election or not, survivalist techniques are virtually worthless in large cities.
        The system is not going to fall apart because we've got whackos running the asylum.
        There will still be grocery stores, there will be still be agriculture and electricity and running water and doctors and firefighters and police.
        Honestly, these kind of posts are just as bad as the ones from Glenn Beck fans who are stockpiling survival seeds and old MREs.

        You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

        by skohayes on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 07:18:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, we disagree. It might sound wacky (0+ / 0-)

          But if you really want to have a discussion about it, I'm open to it.

          I'll simply say this: (and these are facts) the current strain of conservatives in this country are hard right. The GOP is ruled now by people who believe that all government not specifically outlined in the constitution is unnecessary and should be "returned to the states". They also don't believe in taxes or social services. They would gladly starve federal agencies responsible for the regulation of, for example, drugs, food, environmental safety, workplace safety, roads, etc. Under a GOP led government you could reasonably expect that many of the things being regulated today would be deregulated. And agencies reduced (if not eliminated) or privatized.

          And since states will not get much federal funding for such things as education, transportation, environmental maintenance, infrastructure, health care etc, where will the states get the money from? Well, blue states may raise taxes. So if you live in a blue state you'll be a bit better off but still state taxes won't be able to make up for the deficit caused by not getting federal funds. (by the way, this is already happening in 2011, friend. The stimulus helped keep states afloat. But now with the baggers austerity fetish, states will have to cut deeper. As I said, you may think what I'm saying is wacky but it's already happening a little bit.) once states have to start cutting things, they'll do what many are doing: looking at pensions, schools, public services etc. to privatize them or eliminate the financial requirement of paying for them. Services will be cut, first to poor and middle class people. Privatized services - including possibly utilities - will end up costing more than many can afford (what with the deregulation of business). Jobs and employment regulations at the federal level via the department of labor will be all but gone and/or enforcement will be lax. (again, not wacky. This is what we know the GOP will do. In some places they've already tried or done it on some scales. I'm not a wacky person. The GOP is 100% predictable). Perhaps minimum wage will be eliminated. Or unions made illegal. At any rate, people may be working more for less, with very little recourse of action.

          I'm saying this is not outside the realm of possibility if the GOP is in control. We've seen teeny attempts at it in wisconisn, Ohio, Florida (my state), Michigan. We can hear plainly federal baggers say exactly that these agencies are umconstitutional. Heck the GOP has a major presidential candidate that has taken that position and she's leading in Iowa.

          Dismiss it if you want. But to me, it's not all that far fetched. We know what they want. They aren't hiding it whatsoever. The only thing that's prevented it has been a democratic firewall. Without it, what would prevent them from doing it?

          As I said, liberals need to fight them. But we also need tonprepare personally and politically in case we are unsuccessful. Yes grocery stores will exist. You just may not be able to afford to buy anything in them.

  •  I don't believe for one minute... (15+ / 0-)

    that the GOP will allow the Bush/Obama tax cuts to expire without again taking hostages.  Anyone who thinks the cuts will quietly sunset is a fool, a tool or a liar.

    It's time to purge the Democratic party of the corporatists, apologists and the spineless, and start standing-up for the middle-class they are supposed to represent.

    "What's next?" - President Josiah Bartlet, The West Wing

    by shaf on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:51:39 AM PDT

  •  just another day (4+ / 0-)

    on dialykos. The average American doesn't spend 2 minutes a day thinking about what this site gets all waded up about.

    I've read a lot of comments that stated "I won't vote for Obama. but lets say 2000 Kossasks go that route.
    how many of the average voters out there will follow?

    be interesting Nov 8th 2012 that's for sure

  •  Like I have always said (0+ / 0-)

    Obama will cave...he always has and he will always will

  •  Yes, Boehner is the wild card. (4+ / 0-)

    Whether he has the capital to get this passed in the House is very much the question, I think.

    I expect he is going to have trouble; as near as I can tell, he has no allies on the other side of the aisle, and precious few on his own side.  On top of that, this is Canto's big opportunity, the one he's been waiting for since last fall.  Both he and the POTUS know exactly who they're trying to deal with, and they are not rational.

    •  It is SO important for House Dems (0+ / 0-)

      to vote against this bill. I mean certainly because the bill is a disaster, but also for political reasons. If they vote for this bill, it will be hung around their necks for 2012. By the Republicans, who are PRAYING they can get away without voting for the hot potato. It is SO IMPORTANT. I hope they realize it.

      "Whenever a fellow tells me he's bipartisan, I know he's going to vote against me."-- Harry S. Truman

      by irmaly on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:52:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  elections have consequences (6+ / 0-)

    the fight to have had was in November of 2010.

    We, the grassroots activists, failed to hold the tea party congressmen back.

    Hopefully, in 2012, many (if not all) of the tea party congressmen will be removed

  •  Katrina vanden Heuvel speaks the truth (7+ / 0-)

    her column on the debt ceiling "deal" is a must read

    I write about it in this diary

    to which I call your attention

    "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

    by teacherken on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:56:35 AM PDT

    •  "Negotiating with fiscal terrorists..." (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DRo, irmaly

      She hits the nail on the head in her column.  This just makes them appear to have credible and legitimate economic policies, when in fact its already been shown that their proposals will damage the economy even more.  Which will amount to a win-win for them.  They can go home to their districts and say, correctly, they stood their ground.  When the economy tanks even further they can blame Obama.
      The Tea Party caucus must have known that once the debt issue was pushed to the brink, Pres. Obama would be forced to sign anything.  You cannot go on the air bemoaning the lack of "compromise" and then refuse to do so at the last moment.  However he comes across as more of a Gilligan than anything else.  You know, "I won't wear that dress, you can't make me wear that dress", and he ends up wearing the dress.  Just substitute "I won't sign off on anything that doesn't have a balance of cuts and revenue" and "I won't sign off on anything that has a two step process" for "wear that dress".
      I understand the need for compromise. I'm not unreasonable. Just don't go on the air with those kind of demands unless you're willing to back it up.  Period. Christ, he makes Tim Pawlenty look tough.

      •  Terrorists (0+ / 0-)

        I think more people need to be using the terrorist angle. The tea party has just pulled off what OBL couldn't pull off in his wildest dreams. Holding the entire US economy as a hostage.

        Since when do centrists and independents support the use of terrorist tactics? Someone should be pounding this message home.

  •  reflections from a tired teacher (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floande, FindingMyVoice

    reflections from a tired teacher

    a diary written at the end of Save Our Schools March and related activities, and in light of debt crisis

     http://t.co/...

    "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

    by teacherken on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 04:57:12 AM PDT

  •  odd to me the media is saying it's a done (8+ / 0-)

    deal. It's not a done deal until the votes are in.

  •  Introducing! New! Pop Obama's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TampaCPA, graywolf1948, tb mare

    Dry Powdered Cat Food.

    Available in Original Pea Flavor and New! Wormwood!

    Courage is contagious. - Daniel Ellsberg

    by semiot on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:00:35 AM PDT

    •  Cooking with Congress: Friskies Chili (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      semiot, tb mare

      1 can Meaty Bits Gourmet Grill Friskies brand catfood, drained
      1 can kidney beans
      1 can tomato sauce or crushed tomato
      1/4 Diced white onion
      1/2 cup water
      seasonings as desired

      Brown Meaty Bits in saucepan and add other ingredients.  Simmer until pungent.
      Enjoy!

      Your Government At Work!

      That's understandable when I realize that I can't feel my body.

      by prodigal on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:10:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the analysis of indies is dead wrong. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wbgonne, msmacgyver

    I was one from the age of 18 all the way through THROUGH the 2008 election. I didn't switch to Dem until late 2009.

    I was an indie who voted from BOTH parties in those 20-something years I was an indie. I can tell you that this fiasco would have completely turned me off to both parties. I would have said "politics really sucks balls" and it would have (in my mind) justified why I chose to keep my distance from it.

    Which I did.

    I wish I could be as detached about politics as I was at the time.

    Bottom line: my vote basically went to whomever I felt was getting something decent accomplished. I can say I was a left leaning indie. yes. But I also voted for republicans before. I would compare the two candidates (I never voted in mid terms) and choose the one I felt was right for the job AT THAT TIME. Obama won indies in 2008 because of that type comparison. And he seemed the right person for the job AT THAT TIME.  This time out, his accomplishments won't help him - especially since we stand to be in worse economic position than we are today. And IF the GOP puts up someone who seems like a better more capable actor for THE TIME, he's toast.

    I am going to make a prediction: (mark it) you won't see any movement in polling TOWARD Obama after this debacle on the part of indies. Mark it. They will not see this as a positive accomplishment. The numbers will stay the same or tick down slightly (due to anger at "all government"). Watch.

    •  Listening to the political advisors instead (6+ / 0-)

      of policy advisors was a terrible mistake on the President's part.
      Plouffe is good at organizing campaigns, but was never meant to be a policy expert.  As someone who has been in his corner more steadfastly than many, I'm crushed.  I remember him saying that he'd rather be a one-term President and do the right thing.  That, to me, was the promise that he really broke.  

      Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

      by SottoVoce on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:11:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree completely and yet another (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle

      "consensus" opinion from the White House.

      May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:27:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  same scam, different 'crisis' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo

    "TO BIG TO FAIL"

    just how many MORE times are voters going to fall for that same OLD scam ?

    every time we are told there is a crisis and whatever is in crisis is to big to fail BANKERS and BROKERS walk away with gigantic bonuses and we get left holding the empty bag.  every single time... and THIS TIME is no different.

    "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

    by KnotIookin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:02:37 AM PDT

  •  That's not "self reflection" from the Teabaggers. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA, ratcityreprobate

    It's blame shifting.

    Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

    by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:07:08 AM PDT

  •  Hey you got your compromise on my chocolate! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TampaCPA, prodigal, lurkyloo

    It tastes like fucking shit now.

  •  Yes Nancy Pelosi protected Social Security, (3+ / 0-)

    Medicaid, and Medicare beneficiaries.

    Without her these would have been on the chopping block.

    As bad as this deal was, this deal is far better than the "Grand Bargain" that Obama had proposed which with have cut Social Security benefits, increased Medicare from 65 to 67, and only given us $800 billion in revenue.  

    Now since the Bush tax cuts are set to expire Jan 2013 there is a potential of getting $4 trillion in revenue and I am one of those people who believes that ALL of the Bush tax cuts should be expired.

    President Obama, May 5, 2011: "When we say we will never forget, we mean what we say".

    by Drdemocrat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:07:33 AM PDT

    •  Unfortunately, Obama has not given up on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, msmacgyver

      Entitlement Reform. He mentioned it again late yesterday as something that yet needs to be done. Nancy Pelosi and the liberals in the D caucus in the House or the only barrier to the President's desire to cut SS and Medicare.

      Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. Harry Truman

      by ratcityreprobate on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:22:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Only from the trigger (0+ / 0-)

      the entire idea of the committee is to ressurect the other parts of the grand bargain...so she has a lot more work to do...

      we already have the Senate side (gang of 6) taking the hatchet to entitlements....they just need 1 house Dem to 1 house Rep to join and the cake is baked.

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:28:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That will never pass and everybody knows it (0+ / 0-)

        That is why the trigger is so important for it will be triggered.

        There is no way this Congress will pass tax reform and entitelemtn reform.

        President Obama, May 5, 2011: "When we say we will never forget, we mean what we say".

        by Drdemocrat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:12:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  call your reps (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TampaCPA, prodigal, KibbutzAmiad

    I love this prez, but we need to reject the deal.  Now.
    If we force default, then wall street will force the gop.
    We need to call republicans and democrats to emphasise that we'd rather default.  We are the ultimate authority.

    For those of you who prefer Bartlett to Obama, re-watch the West Wing. For those who prefer Clinton, re-watch old news videos.

    by Ptolemy on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:08:20 AM PDT

    •  If we force default (0+ / 0-)

      the US will plunge back into a recession and lose it's triple A ratings forever.
      That's simply idiotic to think that Wall Street will force GOP teabaggers to do anything, since they've been trying for weeks now to get the GOP to deal.

      You will never know what it’s like to work on a farm until your hands are raw, just so people can have fresh marijuana. Jack Handey

      by skohayes on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 07:25:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think the Bush Tax Cut compromise... (5+ / 0-)

    ...will be looked in as the key failure of the Obama administration in years to come.

    It helped set up the house of cards that are falling now and may lead to a double-dip recession.

    Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

    by Bush Bites on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:10:35 AM PDT

  •  How's That Sandwich Taste This Morning? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly

    I am normally supportive of President Obama, but it seems he has once again served progressive Dems. a "Sugar-Coated, Satan (i.e., Shit) Sandwch" with little if any sugar to sweeten the shit.  And he of course expects us to swallow it with a smile on our face ("eat your peas" my ass).

    Even if we don't have the votes to stop it, its important for us to get as many Dem. congress critters to vote "NO" to send a message to the WH and leadership that Progressive Dems. cannot be taken for granted.  If this "deal" passes with a majority of House Dems. voting "no", it will at least look like Obama and Reid made a deal with Republicans which was not supported by their own party.  Hopefully we can gain as much respect someday with our "leaders" as the Tea Party obviously commands today.

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:13:42 AM PDT

  •  cant believe tea party won.. (0+ / 0-)

    Dowd was right...Obama surrendered.

  •  I would love to see a FPer talk about (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA, skohayes

    what anyone can reasonably expect to get done with the House of Representatives we have this term.  It's not just your typical opposing party in charge of one chamber, it's a bunch of loons willing to harm themselves as long as others get hurt.  

    I imagine it this way:  You're one of the two people in the prisoner's dilemma, and you find out that the other person wants both of you to die.

    I'm also curious what kind of precedent you want Obama to set up for the next president?  How about President Perry using the 14th amendment to overturn Roe v. Wade?

    I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it. - President Obama

    by anonevent on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:17:18 AM PDT

  •  I wish I could be a low info voter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FindingMyVoice, mdmslle, irmaly

    I think that's the only way to be happy.  If you pay attention, you see how your being screwed, and there is still nothing you can do about it.

    Fat, dumb and happy.  If I start a diet, I'll be 0 for 3!!!

    In an insane society, the sane man would appear insane

    by TampaCPA on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:17:55 AM PDT

  •  Boehner had Obama over a barrel from the start. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FindingMyVoice, skohayes

    Obama's highest priority, if he could get nothing else, was to prevent default.

    Boehner's highest priority was to bring down the president. If a default happened, he expected Obama to be blamed by the public for it. Besides, many in the GOP caucus believe (mistakenly) default would be no more damaging than the 1995 government shutdown over the budget.

    If default didn't happen, he could force the President to accept budget cuts that would damage the President's standing with his base and weaken his re-election chance.

    Either way, Boehner wins. His dead-in partisanship put Obama in an impossible position.

    For relevant sci-fi and fantasy, go to http://www.betty-cross-author.net/

    by Kimball Cross on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:21:26 AM PDT

    •  the position wasn't impossible (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      msmacgyver

      difficult...yes...impossible...no...

      He said don't call my bluff...once he admitted it was a bluff, it was game set match.

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:29:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jonathan Cohn notes... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FindingMyVoice, Kimball Cross
      Why we’re in this situation (hint: it involves this guy) and what progressives could do to repair the damage afterwards (hint: it involves the Bush tax cuts) will be the subject of another post. For now, though, the best outcome would be to make this awful deal less awful. And even that may not be possible. As Greg Sargent concludes, "it appears the GOP is on the verge of a huge and unprecedented victory." But that may be a foregone conclusion.

      http://www.tnr.com/...

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:31:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This spin just defies belief (4+ / 0-)
    But an official argued that the ultimate trigger was the Bush tax cuts, set to expire at the end of 2012. Obama would block extension of the cuts, either as a final act in office after losing the November 2012 election or as a safely reelected two-term president.

    Are we not supposed to remember that the next President could sign the same deal after being repassed? Or are we supposed to believe the President loses and the House and Senate go fully Democratic AND just do nothing as everyone in Americas taxes are hiked?

    I guess that is the best they can do...but it feels like the old pissing on my leg and telling me it is raining syndrome...

    "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

    by justmy2 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:22:57 AM PDT

    •  It is understood. If Republicans (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      abraxas, FindingMyVoice

      take over Presidency and legislature, you are going to see another round of tax cuts and Ryan's medicare plan will probably pass as well because they will see their victory as a vote of confidence for tea party and , unfortunately, so will a lot of Democratic congressmen.

  •  It sounds like Obama took all of our (3+ / 0-)

    milk money and handed it over to the school-yard bullies.

    We'll see where it goes to from here, but I'm pretty confident that both houses will fall in line, pat us on the heads, and tell us that milk isn't all that good for us anyway.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:27:47 AM PDT

  •  "I hate to do this but it is for your own good" (0+ / 0-)

    Remember when parents would say this?

    Now our government has picked up the phrase

     

  •  Note the date/time: I'm with Bachmann on this one (0+ / 0-)
  •  Biggest "win" for we dems (0+ / 0-)

    We didn't get much out of this whole process (if, in fact it does ultimately pass through both houses of congress and the prez signs it)....but one thing we did get and to me, at least, it's a biggie.  We stopped Boehner and Boys from making this just a 6-month deal so it all would be argued again in the national spotlight before the next election.  

    -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

    by r2did2 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:39:30 AM PDT

    •  r2 that was a win for the president NOT (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      r2did2, irmaly, tb mare

      the people.  seems Obama cut the deal that got HIM what HE wanted... to push this entire fight off until after 2012.  WE won nothing by  that but OBAMA surrendered a lot of what WE wanted in order to get a 'clean' path to the presidential campaign for himself.

      "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

      by KnotIookin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:43:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good points... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tb mare

        Can't really find anything in that to argue with.  I was just trying to put a little lipstick on this ugly pig they've come up with.  You're right...it was more of a win for Obama and anything.

        -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

        by r2did2 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:53:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Primary now! (0+ / 0-)

    No doubt about it, President Obama needs to primaried by a Democrat, any Democrat, which would be leagues better than him. I do not vote for Republicans and neither should you...

  •  All you need to know is that Grover Norquist backs (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jazzenterprises, msmacgyver

    the deal. Via TPM.
    Great, just great!
    See how voting democratic works out so well for us?

    "Say little; do much." (Pirkei Avot: 1:15)

    by hester on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:41:14 AM PDT

  •  Not that this is exactly on topic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, msmacgyver

    but if the Republicans retake the Senate in 2012 do you think they'll get rid of the rules that allow the filibuster?

    In a minute would be my guess.

    is Obama the only sane Republican running for president in 2012?

    by al23 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:41:43 AM PDT

  •  Mr. Obama will have to count on those independents (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jazzenterprises, irmaly

    because he won't have my vote or the votes of other progressives if they are to be believed.  

    I have finally been set free from Mr. Obama.  I can no longer be threatened by democrats to support anyone with a D behind his or her name just because republicans are soooo much worse.  This democrat is no better.  

    I am a LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE and if you don't have the credentials, then you don't get my vote or my money, and if my only choice is between a republican and a weak kneed capitulating democrat, I won't mess up my schedule by worrying about getting out to vote.

    I'm done.

  •  The precedent bodes ill (0+ / 0-)

    Now there are two demagogic budgetary hurdles that will have to be passed every couple of years: the annual budget itself, which was already a disaster, and now the debt ceiling, no longer a pro forma exercise, will have to go through the same kinds of crap.

    Can we survive this? By “we”, I obviously am concerned about the American nation as a whole, but more specifically, I mean progressives. The budget process had already been framed more in terms of cutting spending and cutting taxes than in terms of raising the revenues necessary to fund the essential programs funded by Congress. But the debt limit by its very nature seems to be all about cutting/limiting.

    How can we turn this around? How can we somehow point our collective finger at the greedy wannabes who seem to be striving to turn us into Afghanistan?

    Can we somehow rehabilitate the ideas of paying our way; of doing our share; of helping the less fortunate? And perhaps most important: of a government that is of, by, and for the people, not the people's enemy?

    Maybe we can't. Maybe America's moment of glory has really passed for good. Maybe we are doomed not to succeed in overcoming our own greed and piousness. It's sad. For a while there, I was starting to be sort of proud, which, as we should always remember, tends to cometh before a fall.

  •  ONE PARTY SYSTEM (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenSooner, Jazzenterprises

    Enjoy.

  •  Our leaders suck...but so do we! (0+ / 0-)

    Around the world--from Athens to Tel Aviv to Madrid--people are in the streets protesting ruinous economic policies that punish average people for the sins of the financial elite.

    Here?  We write a few angry words on a blog and go about our business.

    No wonder we get these policies.  Arguing amongst each other about which Democrat or Republican we should be blaming for this disaster is not--and never will be--enough.

    Nor will it be enough to ElectMoreAndBetterDemocrats.

    Unless and until we are once again willing to put our bodies  upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and make it stop, it will just keep on rolling over us.

    "[S]ince Obama keeps talking nonsense about economics, at what point do we stop giving him credit for actually knowing better? Maybe at some point we have to accept that he believes what he’s saying." --Paul Krugman

    by GreenSooner on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:51:12 AM PDT

  •  I hope Obama wins elections only because it is (0+ / 0-)

    obvious that the Republicans will never again field a candidate that is serious about leading this country.  That said, I am not sure how many more of Obama's "victories" we can take as a nation.  This may not have been the issue, but there will come a time when he will have to stand up to conservatives.  He's yet to do it on anything.

    And, honestly, liberals are not Obama's base.  We're the voters who are stuck with him because there isn't a liberal in the mix and who else are we going to vote for?  Moderates are his base, and that's one of the reasons why his negotiations have gone so disastrously.  Moderates don't stand for anything.  They just moderate the views of the other two parties.  Since Obama obviously doesn't care anything about liberal policies all that ends up happening is that we get less crazy conservative bullshit.  That is until the next time, when the hard right pushes for even more.

    I hope the seniors that voted in the tea party and sent the Obama White House running even further to the right enjoy the gutting of Medicare that is sure to come.

    If anything good came out of this it is that the Republicans were shown to be the greatest supporters of cutting social programs.  Democrats will have to vote for it, and Obama will have to sign it into law but hopefully the electorate can hold in its fruit-fly-length memory the fact that it was Republicans that fought for the cuts.

    Democracy is often an indictment of the voting populace.

    by electricgrendel on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:59:12 AM PDT

  •  Bad deal all the way round (0+ / 0-)

    Mainly because everyone seems to have bought into cutting the budget in a recession.  The msm is right in lock step with the Repubs.  How does that make sense in a rational world?

    The only glimmer of hope in all this is the distinct possibility that the House Democrats might vote en masse against it.  It'll pass without them.  But if that doesn't happen, at least the progressive and black caucuses will vote against it.  At least they might be saved in the catastrophe waiting for Democrats in 2012.

    "It was like that when I got here." - Homer Simpson

    by rbird on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:01:46 AM PDT

  •  "And those fence-sitters love compromise (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shoeless

    in almost any form" (Chris Clizza). Yes, fair enough, but Obama's supposed to LEAD and, hopefully educate and push a segment of these voters left, not just stick his finger in the wind and do what he thinks they want.

  •  Averting disaster for whom? (0+ / 0-)

    This reminds me of all those Wall Street bailouts that supposedly averted a depression.

    Well, averted one for the folks on Wall Street and those who've been able to hold on to their jobs.

    Not so hot for the millions and millions of long-term unemployed and underemployed and just plain "I give up. I can't take it anymore" people.

    True "Screw you" class warfare lives.  From the look of things, it will continue to live until everybody's in the screwed class.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:24:56 AM PDT

    •  same old same old (0+ / 0-)

      and I don't want you to have to live thru an alternative depression (a real one) for you to see the difference.

      Of all the arguments to bring up, yours is the least compelling. what was needed a few years ago was needed. what it didn't do was stimulate enough (Krugman was right then and now, not you.)

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 07:35:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No, Paul, it isn't just you... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tb mare

    Link from Diary: Krugman

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    Maybe it’s just me, but I see a pattern here.

    Did the president have any alternative this time around? Yes.

    First of all, he could and should have demanded an increase in the debt ceiling back in December. When asked why he didn’t, he replied that he was sure that Republicans would act responsibly. Great call.

    And even now, the Obama administration could have resorted to legal maneuvering to sidestep the debt ceiling, using any of several options. In ordinary circumstances, this might have been an extreme step. But faced with the reality of what is happening, namely raw extortion on the part of a party that, after all, only controls one house of Congress, it would have been totally justifiable.

    At the very least, Mr. Obama could have used the possibility of a legal end run to strengthen his bargaining position. Instead, however, he ruled all such options out from the beginning.


    May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:34:36 AM PDT

  •  Screwed, blue-ed, and tattooed. (0+ / 0-)

    I think I've finally had enough of this.

    If this is Hope and Change, I want my money back.

    by Palafox on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:57:28 AM PDT

  •  Guess What? (0+ / 0-)

    The GOP will go back on their word, will cheat and steal.  Our side will get trolled again.

    Lucy's got the football, and Charlie's idiotic faith will convince him to try to kick it once again.  

  •  "...fight harder the next time..."? (0+ / 0-)

    When did they fracking fight at all THIS time???

    You can reliably depend on congressional Democrats to bend over next time too. And probably not even have the courage to request a lubricant.

  •  Pelosi is rapidly becoming my hero. (0+ / 0-)

    Except she already pretty much was. Short list of potential heroes in public service at this point...

    "...I think a good chunk of the Republican caucus is either stupid, crazy, ignorant or craven cowards..."
    Bruce Bartlett on Hardball, transcribed by SharksBreath, 27 July 2011

    by pixxer on Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 08:58:44 AM PDT

  •  I've Got A Bridge I'd Like To Sell You (0+ / 0-)

    "Democrats can look forward to the expiration of the Bush tax cuts next year" says a NYT editorial.  Well, until the GOP pouts, threatening to hold their collective breath unless the cuts are extended.  The DINO"s (most Dem's) rush to their aid and Obama provides mouth to mouth resuscitation (with tongue) in extending current tax rates, thus saving CEO's, Boards of Directors, Banksters and Hedge Fund Managers the embarrassment of supporting the country where they reside.

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