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Post Fukushima:

Dan Yurman of Idaho Samizdat penned an interesting summery of the situation with China's new nuclear expansion, and, in light of recent events and criticism, a slight roll back of these plants (from 80+GW to 60 GWs by 2020). Here is his entry. Quotes from his blog including the following:

Vice Minister Li said, after the occurrence of Fukushima nuclear accident, the Chinese Government attached great importance to it with quick and effective response.

“We start doing the following two activities:

1) Large scale inspection on safety of nuclear power facilities. This work started in April and will be finished within 6 months. Among them, inspection on safety of all nuclear facilities under operation will be conducted in the first stage.

In the second stage, we will carry out comprehensive review of the safety of all nuclear power plants under construction. At present, the work of the first stage has been finished with the safety check pace similar to that of EU and the United States.

2) Development of China National Plan for Nuclear Safety as soon as possible. The Chinese Government will suspend the review and approval of all new nuclear power plant projects before the approval of this Plan. "

(Complete Summary of Ganjie’s remarks in English)

Li has called for a major overhaul of China's nuclear oversight in the wake of Japan's disaster. However, regulatory developments are not seen as impeding China’s drive to build up its commercial nuclear fleet.

My comments on it:

I think it's worth while to look this blog because Dan quotes from "inside/outside" observers, Westinghouse Chinese engineers, former NRC China specialists, etc). It shows the real bottlenecks in this still exponential expansion of fission energy there and is a guide to those of us who want to see the US goes all out for non-carbon and nuclear energy.

Clearly the biggest concern is a lack of safety regulation, one that is both expert enough and, one that is independent enough from the purveyors of their energy plans, the large state and provincial atomic energy companies who are building these plants. There are 25 or so under consturction with 11GWS from 11 plants online now.

I think this is a concern but it's clearly recognized by the Chinese government as well. It is in my opinion the biggest "problem" with how the outside world perceives of Chinese nuclear plans.

The second area of concern Dan notes is the quality of the construction and the quality of the controls used for safety (all controls in a plant like this are 'safety' of course). It's unclear how much is domestically produced and designed, or how much is important from groups like Siemens and ABB. There seems to be a lack of confidence on the part of the western observers in Chinese controls and communications regimen for this tech. That there might be 'issues' with them. Unstated, but largley simply a 'trust' issue of unproven new Chinese designs. Some of this could be typical western chuavinism of course but real concerns of unproven equipment problably lies at the heart of this.

The third area of concern is simply the overall lack of trained personnel. Everything from welders to nuclear engineers [as Rod Adams pointed out on his blog today, there is a big difference between a Ph d. and Nobel winner in physics and a practical hands on nuclear engineer with experience in building or running a plant - not his words exactly but a stretch of a paraphrase of what he was getting at] to operators and mechanics.

The civil engineering involved has to be effectively "N-stamped". We're not building canals or bridges or high speed rail, but nuclear plant foundations, containment, and so on. There is no way to send some one to school for 4 years and they come out ready. There is a long learning curve for anything involved in practical applied engineering and operations.

About 15 years ago we had a delegation of Chinese power plant representatives come on tour of our plant in San Francisco. They were interested in everything, obviously. We asked them how they trained their operators. They answered that in addition to regular schooling of operators, they would double and triple shift their plants for years effectively over hiring to give people on the job training and then send them out to new plants (in the old, gilded-age original meaning of the term "Journeyman".)

China is also building massive training facilities including a "Nuclear City" reported on Dan's blog entry. Here is a description:

Plans are advancing for the construction of the first industrial park in China to help with the rapid development of the country's nuclear power industry, with detailed engineering and construction preparation work at the site in Haiyan, Zhejiang province, expected to start soon.  

The coastal city of Haiyan, on the Yangtze Delta, has been selected to house the 'Nuclear City'. It is some 118 kilometres (70 miles) southwest of Shanghai and close to the cities of Hangzhou, Suzhou and Ningbo. It also lies midway along China’s coast, where several nuclear power plants have been constructed or are planned.

In Zhejiang province itself, there are currently five nuclear power reactors in operation and two under construction at Qinshan. There are also two reactors under construction at the Fangjiashan plant. By 2014, when all nine units should be in operation, electrical generating capacity will total some 6300 MWe.

The Nuclear City is expected to have four main areas of work: development of the nuclear power equipment manufacturing industry; nuclear training and education; applied nuclear science industries (medical, agricultural, radiation detection and tracing); and promotion of the nuclear industry.

On its website, the Haiyan Nuclear City said that it will be based on the Burgundy region of France, which successfully became an industrial centre for the French nuclear industry. Several small and medium sized French nuclear-related companies moved to Burgundy to actively participate in the global market.

The pay off for these endeavors, especially after the first Gen III and new Gen II+ reactors go on line won't be seen until after 2020, IMO. Once China has the base of 20 or so GWs of Gen III reactors online, and their new engineering schools start graduating students, I predict China will, by then, be ready to really initiate an exponential growth of their nuclear industry. Chinese long range plans, end-of-the-century perspective (gotta love real long range planning) is 1500 GWs of Gen III/Gen IV/Breeder reactors.

 

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    billmosby, bryfry, SCFrog, northstarbarn, Mcrab

    Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

    by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:49:11 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the info, David. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:21:17 AM PDT

  •  The good news is China is 7,000 miles (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, esquimaux, Russgirl

    from New York.

    You're probably aware that quality issues are systemic in the massively corrupt land of China. Whether it's trying to kill my friend's cat with their cat food (she got $1400 from them for the vet expenses); losing my neighbor's big toes with their flip-flops (not an internet rumor); killing infants with their formulas; or poisoning houses with their dry wall, incompetence and corruption is endemic.

    Ponder Chinese experience of grand projects. And the high standards of their business practices, and results, reaching from the Great Leap Forward to today.

    Perhaps the best overview comes from the Chinese. Here's an inspiring bit from a Chinese scholar on Chinese construction failures:

    Failure Factors in Chinese Construction Enterprises

    Only five years ago

    ...the failure rate of [construction] enterprises has reached unprecedented levels.  ...there are few academic institutions or scholars to conduct systematic research on the failure of enterprises. It is caused by various reasons: (1) it is difficult to collect failure samples; (2) the organizers or managers of failed enterprises intentionally avoid the investigation; (3) the organizers or managers cannot summarize the reasons for failure accurately, or after a long time, they cannot recall the cases clearly; (4) the failure reasons are various and complicated. ...

    ...In China, Considering failure of business and management on construction enterprise, the first important factor is failure of construction project, which usually lead to fail directly. Commonly, failure of construction project comprises nine aspects as follows: fault of project decision-making, fault of project financing, fault of project survey, fault of project design, losing control of time limit for a project, losing control of investment, losing control of quality, losing control of risk and technique fault.

    You raised realistic points of potential trouble with the Chinese nuclear enterprise, and the Party lines on how those problems are being and will be countered. A very fair effort on your part, and thank you for it.

    Nonetheless, I've not heard of anything whatsoever which shows that the Communist Chinese culture has fundamentally changed. Why nukes would be an exception, why all these to-be trained people won't be getting their certifications after paying the certificate-issuing authority (extremely common practice)... I'm not sure what on Real Earth would make anyone think the Chinese Communists moving forward on nuclear a comforting thing.

    Do you really want to be touting Chinese Communist movement on this as somehow reassuring on nukes? On the basis of positive statements by apparatchiks? If I were pro-nuke, I'd try to never mention it, given the context of actual experience.


    "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

    by Jim P on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:24:35 AM PDT

    •  Have you seen the Chinese plans re coal ? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Recall

      Being 7000 miles away will do no good .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:32:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nukes are always an exception Jim. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Recall, northstarbarn

        They've had nukes on line for 20 years. No recorded or even hinted problems with them. The record is actually good with regards to their nuclear energy program.

        Nukes are an exception because there is far more oversight on these projects as there is in other parts of the world. They are not building flip flops or cat food here. In the US, each industry and  the degree and quality of their regulation is completely autonomous from one another with completely different cultures. This is true from the FAA to the MOSHA to the FDA to the NRC.

        Specs for building, say, Chinese high speed rail are quite different than their nuclear projects. N-Stamp is actually their standard as well. They don't use N-Stamp quality on the high speed rail or their cat food. Certainly they should on their rail.

        At any rate these are all issues that need to be dealt with which is why I wrote and reviewed some of these issues. I take it very seriously and the more attention internationally that is cast on the question the more pressure there will be for the Chinese to respond.

        My point is that nuclear IS expanding (along with everything else). Indy asked about coal. Do you know that coal expansion so great that illegal power plants are actually built by factories to provide reliable power as the load is greater than the grid can provide. 4 to 24 hour industrial level black outs are common. They want to address this with more of everything, from peddle power to nuclear power. I want them to do it as safe as possible and do so with the idea of phasing out their coal, the real danger.

        Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

        by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:44:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But David, who keeps the records? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          esquimaux

          Great googly moogly, man, this is the Chinese Communist regime we're talking about! Yes, they are a government, but they are also gangsters. They made stories on the high-speed rail collision disappear two days after it happened!

          Go online in China with tales of nuclear troubles you've witnessed and then try to find out where your post went, and then where your family went.

          China has the 11th longest coastline in the world, and the 2nd or 3rd highest wind potential. They, no one, needs either the arsenic or the strychnine "solutions."

          Seriously, you don't want to be making people think about Chinese nukes if you want them to be believing nukes are a good thing. There simply is no reason to imagine that nuclear plants in China will be exempt from the 9 reasons Chinese construction problems continually fail, as listed above.


          "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

          by Jim P on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:59:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah Jim, who do you think builds nukes (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Recall, northstarbarn

            in the PRC? Bryfry is correct. I've had more conversations with Chinese physics students on nuclear at UC Berkeley than I have on politics (which I usually why I go there!).

            In fact, the Chinese blogsoshper is FULL of stories about problems with quality. This is not always or nearly censored. Discussion is usually free, action, however, is repressed.

            The Chinese "wind" is growing. IT cannot run, nor does a single person suggest (except westeners like you) that they can run their economy on wind. The Chinese know about energy and growth. Wind can't make it. They do NOT reject it but they want clean nuclear energy as well, and, as there is not indication it's not clean,they have plans to by the end of the century to go, it seems, to about 80% nuclear.

            The facts are that Chinese nuclear has done pretty well. Read Dans' blog I linked to. There ARE issues and they have to be addressed seriously, not in the 'cat foot' metaphor you use, which is un serious, and to be honest, borders on racism based on your own ignorance.

            The problem that you see a problem, and then project this all over the place when that is a false and inaccurate way to deal with risk assessment. Jim...you gonna stop flying because GE engines use Chinese parts? Of course you are not. So deal with HOW the Chinese can be brought more out into the open that is supportive of their energy plans. These plans include phasing out coal. A good coal only accomplished with nuclear...SAFE nuclear. That's what we all want.

            Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

            by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:37:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  One thing that China doesn't have (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cody

              is aging ex-hippies with an ancient agenda to advance, so that they can feel young again.

              Have they even heard of Jackson Browne in Beijing?

              An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
              -- H. L. Mencken

              by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:00:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I think, Jim (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      northstarbarn

      that you haven't been to an American University in a while.

      US graduate programs in science and engineering are swamped with students from China. Unlike some international students, these graduates often return to China.

      China has aggressively encouraged its young people to pursue advanced technical degrees, something that we in the US haven't done for a generation or two.

      An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
      -- H. L. Mencken

      by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:19:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Made in China (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux
    Unstated, but largley simply a 'trust' issue of unproven new Chinese designs. Some of this could be typical western chuavinism of course but real concerns of unproven equipment problably lies at the heart of this.

    I'm not so sure that this is a case of "chauvinism." It seems more reasonable to me that, when people think of "made in China," they think of the cheap products that they purchase at Walmart, which are of poor quality and which usually break within a year.

    It's only natural for Americans to associate China with cheap and low quality, given their experience.

    Don't you remember that scene in Back to the Future, Part III?

    Young Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan."

    Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.

    Young Doc: Unbelievable.


    An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
    -- H. L. Mencken

    by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:40:45 AM PDT

    •  I don't agree. The looksee by the IAEA and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bryfry

      western experts, bryfry, doesn't stem from our experience with their cheap shit. Boeing 777s use Chinese components as does every high end product used or manufactured in the US.

      The problem really comes from 'not knowing' and it's scary for many in the industry. We know that China can produce the highest of quality. Most Americans are ignorant of this because think, as Jim P does above, at cat food. Not a good way to do comparisons, IMO.

      Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

      by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:47:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course their I-phones (0+ / 0-)

      are "made in China" too, as, quite likely, is their computer and hi-def TV.  Perhaps they've been programmed not to notice that?

      There's good, and bad, made everywhere.  Those reactors at Fukushima were, after all, American designs.  Turned out to be junk, didn't they . . .

      Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

      by Deward Hastings on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:30:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many people (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cody, northstarbarn

        keep an i-Phone or a computer for more than three years these days?

        It's not many.

        Meanwhile, the reactors of Fukushima "turned out to be junk" only after a full 40-year operating life and only after a natural disaster of epic proportions that killed tens of thousands of people.

        I shudder to think how many computers, cell phones, and hi-def TV's (with all of the toxic material that they contain) "turned out to be junk" after this monumental catastrophe.

        An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
        -- H. L. Mencken

        by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:24:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They don't keep them (0+ / 0-)

          past 2-3 years not because they stop working (except for those Apple products where the not-replaceable battery fails by design), but because they have been superceeded by more modern and superior Chinese technology . . .

          Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

          by Deward Hastings on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 03:09:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And you can get good money for them on Ebay. (0+ / 0-)
            •  Well, that's because ... (0+ / 0-)

              there are a lot of idiots on Ebay.

              One of my favorite stories is about a friend of mine who wanted to upgrade his cell phone. He sold his old phone (which had quite a bit of wear -- e.g., the vibrator inside no longer worked) on Ebay for more than enough money to cover the cost of a new phone that he purchased from Sprint (with discounts, of course). He made money from this deal.

              The purchaser called to ask about the broken vibrator, but after my friend explained that "Oh yeah ... that doesn't work," the guy was satisfied.

              Like I said ... one born every minute.

              An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
              -- H. L. Mencken

              by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:26:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Cellphones are subsidized by service contracts. (0+ / 0-)
                the cost of a new phone that he purchased from Sprint (with discounts, of course). He made money from this deal.
                •  Yes, but ... (0+ / 0-)

                  the clever thing was that the deal on the new cellphone was advertised as only for new Sprint customers. He called Sprint and complained that this was unfair to loyal customers such as him (he had been using Sprint for a year or more), and Sprint went ahead and gave him the discount.

                  An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
                  -- H. L. Mencken

                  by bryfry on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 03:09:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Public Hearings on "America's Nuclear Future' (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Heard a rumor at a Harvard seminar last winter that Duke Energy will be partnering with China to build nukes in the US, when and if there is a US nuclear resurgence.

    Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

    by gmoke on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:58:24 AM PDT

    •  Hmm....interesting. So far no Chinese (0+ / 0-)

      designer (or Korean for that matter) has submitted a reactor design to the NRC for approval. I expect the Koreans are going to submit their APR1400 in the next year or two but the Chinese? Hmmm...maybe. It could be the CAP-1400 or CAP-1700. The latter is 'talk', the former, they have plans for. We'll see.

      The key is how their CAP-1000/AP-1000s come out in terms of cost. Right now they are quite low cost to start with, but with their modular construction its possible, even likely, their construction costs will come down as Shaw Group and Westinghouse profit from the Chinese "First of a Kind" builds.

      Be interesting when it hits the news. I can see it now:

      "Chinese to Build Nukes in US, Cat Lovers Appalled".

      Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

      by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:14:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Chinese Design (0+ / 0-)

        The rumor I heard was not about a new reactor design but about using Chinese engineering and fabrication to build nukes for Duke.  The subtext was the lack of training and current expertise in the US but that may just be my mistaken impression.

        Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

        by gmoke on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 07:08:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Engineering Standards (0+ / 0-)
          ... using Chinese engineering and fabrication to build nukes for Duke.

          Unless Duke is planning on building and operating nuclear plants overseas, every critical component that is safety-related will need to be manufactured according to standards that meet ASME's "N-stamp" assessment system.

          An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
          -- H. L. Mencken

          by bryfry on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 07:25:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gsmoke might be onto something. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bryfry

            I'm thinking of engineering construction techniques. Currently the Chinese are building AP1000s and their own version, nearly identical, and the manufacturing learning curve is where all the savings can come from. The Chinese are doing ALL the learning...for us...and so if it's an exportable expertise, then Duke can use it. Components have to be N-Stamped, not not the building techniques.

            The PRC is absorbing all these costs, Shaw Group, no doubt, is picking up some of it. So assuming this is more of a consulting gig that Duke is paying for, it makes perfect sense now.

            Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

            by davidwalters on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 08:58:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good points (0+ / 0-)

              Of course, construction doesn't need a "stamp," because it is inspected on-site to ensure that it meets the relevant engineering codes and standards.

              I point this out to counter the notion that US reactors will be installing "cheap Chinese junk" in them that will cause problems.

              An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
              -- H. L. Mencken

              by bryfry on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 08:54:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Knee Jerk Reaction (0+ / 0-)

                I try to be an honest reporter of what I see and hear.  Any anti-nuke or anti-Chinese or anti-quality implication is in the eye of the reader not the intentions of this writer.

                Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

                by gmoke on Wed Sep 07, 2011 at 10:22:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You make it sound like (0+ / 0-)

                  any discussion of your comment is unwelcome.

                  Is anything that either David or I wrote incorrect? If you think so, could you please explain?

                  Talk about "knee jerk" ... jeez.

                  An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
                  -- H. L. Mencken

                  by bryfry on Wed Sep 07, 2011 at 12:01:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Comment Is Welcome (0+ / 0-)

                    But your anti-Chinese and anti-quality remarks had nothing to do with what I wrote and everything to do with your own opinions.  You jumped to your own conclusions without any real basis from my report.  Felt to me like a knee jerk reaction that misused and misconstrued my words.  I don't like to see my words twisted, even by mistake, or people mislead themselves based upon my report and their own inclinations.  You have a right to your own views but when you want to prop them up by mistaking my words, I believe I have the right to disassociate myself from such remarks.

                    Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

                    by gmoke on Thu Sep 08, 2011 at 11:40:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  WTF!! (0+ / 0-)
                      But your anti-Chinese and anti-quality remarks ...

                      Are you high? Where are these remarks? (BTW, "cheap Chinese junk" was in quotes for a reason.)

                      You say that you don't like to see your words twisted? Well, once again, I have to complain about the pot calling the kettle black.

                      Here, I was having a nice conversation with the diarist, discussing the Quality Assurance standards and procedures that are in place in the US nuclear industry -- i.e., I was adding value to the discussion -- and then you had to rudely interrupt with nonsense that turns out to be all about yourself.

                      Hey ... believe it or not ... not every comment posted on this site or in this thread is about you. Don't be such an egoist!

                      Since you apparently have nothing constructive to add here, I sincerely hope that you will just go away. Your self-centered whining is starting to tick me off.

                      An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
                      -- H. L. Mencken

                      by bryfry on Fri Sep 09, 2011 at 10:48:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  My Mistake (0+ / 0-)

                        I apologize if I offended you.  My intent was simply to make sure that any readers knew that your mention of anti-Chinese bias or lack of quality did not stem from me or my reportage of the comments at Harvard.  In fact, the context of those comments that Duke was thinking about Chinese firms for nuclear work had the flavor of being both pro-Chinese and esteem for the quality of their work, the exact opposite of your speculations.

                        Sorry for the misunderstanding.

                        Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

                        by gmoke on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 12:56:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Gmoke (0+ / 0-)

              No "s".  It's a simple mistake.

              Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

              by gmoke on Wed Sep 07, 2011 at 10:20:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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