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"The Great Shutdown" continues around the world. Only disinformation, as was seen by the censorship and manipulation of news by the British Government recently reported here on DK. In Japan, changing Prime Ministers does not change the goal: Zero Nukes.
From the Boston Globe
http://articles.boston.com/...

In his inaugural address yesterday, Noda said he was committed to phasing out nuclear power, a path set by Kan.

But Noda also stressed that reducing Japan’s dependence on nuclear power would be a gradual process and that reactors that have fallen idle over safety fears since the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant would be restarted, albeit after stringent checks and gaining the understanding of local communities.

To build new reactors is unrealistic, and we will decommission reactors at the end of their life spans,’’ he said. “But it is also impossible to immediately reduce our dependence to zero,’’ he said.

Clarified, by the nation's Industry minister Yoshio Hachiro, when asked:

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- Industry minister Yoshio Hachiro said Tuesday that the number of Japan's nuclear power plants would be "zero" in the future, based on Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda's policy of not building new nuclear power plants and decommissioning aged ones.

"Considering the premier's remarks at press conferences, it would be zero," Hachiro told reporters in answer to the question whether the number of nuclear plants would reduce to none in the future.


Mainichi Daily News
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/...

As I wrote in " 'The Great Shutdown' grows, Japan PM calls for the phase out Nuclear Energy"
http://www.dailykos.com/...

No laws have been passed yet, but such a huge bold statement, even as they continue to hide some of the worst, this is not a risky unpopular direction. The end of nuclear power in Japan has leaders, political power and government. I dare the (very right wing) Liberal Democratic Party to be the "ProNuke Party" as they attempt to regain power from this Party. It might even save this Prime Ministers ass.

Japan, the ultimate nuclear power nation, is abandoning the failed god. Joining Germany, Switzerland and more, with the US having built no nuclear power for more than twenty five years, our effective "moratorium" is understood as a Memorial, and we can gird our loins to battle any politician who would endanger our home.

Our job in the short and medium term is to take from office in party and nation all who would endanger our country land and world. I invite opponents to identify themselves for that purpose. We need lists. In the shortest term we must  work hardest to make sure leaners and doubters don't make rash compromises or stupid speeches.

No more nukes built anywhere, starting here, growing everywhere. Its up to us to act, not talk, about preventing action by nukers.

The Great Shutdown continues, it requires our undivided attention.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The Great Shutdown! Thanks for covering this (8+ / 0-)

    there is so much major news on eco issues our attention has been diverted from news on the nuclear power industry and how governments are reacting to Fukushima.

    Sure appreciate your keeping this in the spotlight.

  •  The number of reactors in the future should be (6+ / 0-)

    one.  That reactor is located about 8 light minutes from Earth.   One day in few billion years it will destroy our planet, but until then it is the answer to alot of our energy questions.

    I am the neo-con nightmare, I am a liberal with the facts.

    by bhfrik on Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 01:25:08 PM PDT

    •  I fully support all reactors (6+ / 0-)

      at least 7 light minutes from our "life envelope"

      I am sure people have no idea how fragile and small the envelope containing all know life in the universe is.

      Here is a helpful reminder:The smaller blue ball is all the worlds water, in the air, in the rivers, oceans, soil, lakes and that bottle you shouldn't have bought. The larger (still tiny) blue sphere contains all earth's atmosphere. Outside those balls, there is no known life for trillions of miles.

      And lest we forget, the ball behind the two small spheres is an immense ball of molten rock, except for a thin scab, an shallow unstable crust of death dealing 'cooled' rock, shifting and snapping at a whim.

  •  That seems a sensible approach to working towards (0+ / 0-)

    a nuclear free country.  It certainly wouldn't be feasible for any country that depends upon current nuclear reactors for any significant amount percentage of their energy production to just suddenly go 'cold turkey'.

  •  The future is a long time (0+ / 0-)

    IOW: ain't gonna happen

    Japan will introduce a New Breed of reactors, totally different from the last generation.

    And totally safe, of course...

    •  We will know how right you are in just a few days (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim P

      There are several reactors already cancelled, and several a good ways along as I understand  it:

      As for nuclear power plants whose construction has begun, such as Chugoku Electric's Shimane plant's No. 3 reactor in Shimane Prefecture and Electric Power Development Co.'s Oma nuclear power plant in Aomori Prefecture, Hachiro said he intends to make a decision based on discussions at the ministry's advisory committee on energy and natural resources.

      Japan currently plans to set up 12 reactors nationwide, excluding the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's No. 7 and 8 reactors, whose construction plan was canceled by the plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. in the wake of the nuclear crisis at the complex. But construction has not progressed much for most of the projects.


      http://mdn.mainichi.jp/...
      The Mainichi Daily news

      If the already started reactors are allowed to completed, then talk it is. If not then activists in Japan and elsewhere need to force the issue strongly.

      •  There are few activists in Japan (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mookins

        And they will have little to no effect.

        Any attempted pressure by external activists will not only be meaningless to the government of Japan, it will only turn public opinion towards the government.

        Japanese do not appreciate foreigners butting into what they view as their affairs.

        Foreign pressure, or gai atsu (外圧), works only when two criteria are in effect.

        1. The external pressure comes from an organization or government with status, such as the UN, the World Court, or the US government,

        2.  There is factional disagreement within the elite on what course to adopt.  

        In such a situation, one faction will use the foreign pressure a chip in the internal bargaining process.

        •  Build a boycott of Japanese electronics (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mookins

          if they go back on the shutdown.

          Drop plans for travel there.

          Do research for the many many new activists who ARE organizing demonstrations, marches and actions against nuclear power.

          I could go on, but the point is: the Japanese people have awoken to the danger past governments have put them in, and it is, or may be, the beginning of the end of a placid acceptance of authority that permeated so much of the pre- DJP ( Democratic Party of Japan  part of the centre -left) rule.

          Before the DJP, the same party ruled Japan since (and during) WWII, the right wing neoliberal Liberal Democratic Party

          •  There are growing energetic demos, to back (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mookins, Jim P

            the general anger and disgust.

            "Thousands demonstrate in Tokyo streets against nuclear energy."
            http://www.english.rfi.fr/...

            and this, and more on teh google.

            •  150,000 demonstrate against Nuclear power in Tokyo (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDATfOlccM

              •  150,000 (0+ / 0-)

                Wow, that's a big number.

                And where is your source for that?

                •  I am shamed, my eager typo added 135,000 people (0+ / 0-)

                  Please forgive me.
                  But wikipedia says demos are growing to give voice to the 80% of people who are anti-nuclear.:

                  In 1982, Chugoku Electric Power Company proposed building a nuclear power plant near Iwaishima, but many residents opposed the idea, and the island’s fishing cooperative voted overwhelmingly against the plans. In January 1983, almost 400 islanders staged a protest march, which was the first of more than 1,000 protests the islanders carried out. Since the Fukushima nuclear disaster in March 2011 there has been wider opposition to construction plans for the plant.[61]

                  Three months after the Fukushima nuclear disaster, thousands of anti-nuclear protesters marched in Japan. Company workers, students, and parents with children rallied across Japan, "venting their anger at the government's handling of the crisis, carrying flags bearing the words 'No Nukes!' and 'No More Fukushima'."[62] Problems in stabilizing the Fukushima I plant have hardened attitudes to nuclear power. As of June 2011, "more than 80 percent of Japanese now say they are anti-nuclear and distrust government information on radiation".[63] The ongoing Fukushima crisis may spell the end of nuclear power in Japan, as "citizen opposition grows and local authorities refuse permission to restart reactors that have undergone safety checks". Local authorities are skeptical that sufficient safety measures have been taken and are reticent to give their permission – now required by law – to bring suspended nuclear reactors back online.[63] More than 60,000 people in Japan marched in demonstrations in Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima and Fukushima on June 11, 2011.[64]

                  In July 2011, Japanese mothers, many new to political activism, have started "taking to the streets to urge the government to protect their children from radiation leaking from the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant". Using social networking media, such as Facebook and Twitter, they have "organized antinuclear energy rallies nationwide attended by thousands of protesters".[65]

                  and:

                  "It is the first time that I have protested to the government but I wanted to do something to change the situation," a pregnant woman from Koriyama, Fukushima Prefecture, said after a rally in Tokyo, at which she joined other women wearing aprons and carrying sunflowers, which are said to absorb radioactive materials from contaminated soil.

                  http://search.japantimes.co.jp/...
                  Japan Times
                  •  And this From "The Tokyo Insider" (notice wording) (0+ / 0-)
                    Anti Nuclear Protests Sweep Japan

                    Since 3/11, Japanese are waking up to the realities of their government and society.

                    For the traditionally closed society, this is a remarkable change.

                    All the news and message boards are filled with anger over the government’s handling of the situation,


                    http://www.tokyo-insider.net/...
                  •  No worries (0+ / 0-)

                    We've all been there.

                    RE: 80% being anti-nuclear and not trusting the govt, these numbers are over a decade old.  Japan's nuclear industry had a lot of problems in the 90s, and by the end of the decade nuclear power opposition went from the low 20s to the high 60s and even the high eighties, depending on how the question was framed, (as always). Particularly, if the question was whether you support more power plants v phasing out existing plants, v status quo.

                    There was also the whole issue of the new fast breed MOX reactors, which, while having a poor safety record, also are an essential part of making weapons-grade plutonium. Which involved Japan's so-called "nuclear allergy" and all the politics and unresolved issues of WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki and even the role of the Emperor.

                    It is, as you can imagine, all mixed up and complicated

                    The real issue is to what extent the growing roll of pubic opinion plays in Japan. Suffice to say, things are changing with the erosion of the beaurocratic control on state policy, the development of independent political power (as opposed to being extensions of the  bureaucracy during the heydays of Japan's post war boom) and the general stagnation of Japans economy and popular unrest against all of that.

                    Despite all the change with Koizumi's populist administration in the begining of the last decade, and the fall of the LDp, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

                    •  Not old data, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Agathena

                      Brand new data.

                      By Gavin Blair, Correspondent / June 20, 2011
                      Recent opinion polls conducted by Japanese news agencies have found between 75 and 80 percent of Japanese people are now in favor of scrapping all of Japan’s 54 reactors.

                      http://www.csmonitor.com/...
                      •  Like I said, it depends on (0+ / 0-)

                        how the question is/was framed.

                        And it seems you did not really appreciate the point of my last post:  the central issue is to what extent public opinion will shape state policy.   And I will add, how long and intense pubic ire about the Fukushima disaster will last.

                        For the state to respond, public disapproval will have to sustain for some time.

                        If you are interested in how these things have worked in the past, I recommend you read up on pollution reform from the 1970s.

                        •  Demo's are sweeping the nation. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Agathena
                          "It is the first time that I have protested to the government but I wanted to do something to change the situation," a pregnant woman from Koriyama, Fukushima Prefecture, said after a rally in Tokyo, at which she joined other women wearing aprons and carrying sunflowers, which are said to absorb radioactive materials from contaminated soil.

                          and
                             Anti Nuclear Protests Sweep Japan
                              Since 3/11, Japanese are waking up to the realities of their government and society.
                              For the traditionally closed society, this is a remarkable change.
                              All the news and message boards are filled with anger over the government’s handling of the situation,
                          from above^
                          •  No they are not (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Its a quote from the "Tokyo Insider" (0+ / 0-)

                            I can't say how accurate his/her judgement is, who is to judge what sweeping is for a "traditionally closed society," that is " waking up to the realities of their government and society." (see quotes above with link)

                            I for one see the governments actions as recognizing if not the obvious danger, then at the very least the real popular anger and desire for change.

                          •  I can. She is wrong (0+ / 0-)

                            Anyone who writes about an immanent change in Japan's 'traditionally closed society" either does not know what they are talking about, or is being paid to lie.

                            The former are usually foreign journalists/busiessperson who do not speak Japanese and therefor must rely on the latter, who's whole job is to feed such nonsense to the unwitting foreigner.

                          •  see replies below and above (0+ / 0-)

                            You seem to want to merely repeat that the japanese wont do anything. I can not for the life of me figure out why.

                            Demo's work. Big demos work better. Sitting down works. Lots of people sitting down, or laying down tools works better.

                            They ARE doing it. Saying it wont matter is, well odd.

                          •  That is not what I wrote (0+ / 0-)

                            That is not my point.

                            My point is simple:  Japan is not taking its nuclear power plants offline.  The Fukushima disaster has raised public concern and ire about the nuclear industry.  To whether the storm, the state has temporarly halted its nuke programe and has offered a lot of nice words about phasing it out.

                            That will most likely not happen unless the storm does not blow over.

                            Street demonstations are counter-productive that end.  Most in Japan find street demonstations unseemley and representative of public disorder.  They are frowned upon.

                          •  wooops (0+ / 0-)

                            No they are not.  The numbers are near meaningless.

                            And the vast majority do not support street demonstrations.

                          •  You may have knowledge of that time, but (0+ / 0-)

                            These wonderful people disagree:

                            http://radioactivists.org/...

                            But we want to show to the world what is going on in Japan right now: the biggest protests in Japanese history since the 1970s!

                            Here look:

                          •  If you chose to trust the information from that (0+ / 0-)

                            source, that is your perogative.

                            But it does not make it true

                            Again, I urge you to read up on some of what I have offered here.   You appear interested in this issue.

              •  Your source says 1,000s (0+ / 0-)

                Not 150,000.

                And that was in March.

                Nope, your  not making your case that the "Japanese People have awoken" to anything.

                As I said, they know all about it. And have for a long time.

          •  Pardon me? (0+ / 0-)

            You presume much about the Japan and the Japanese people.  Incorrectly.

            Putting aside the impossibility of actually effecting a boycott, I will grant it for the sake of argument.  The people will not respond to a boycott of their exports.  All past boycotts of Japan have only angered the people and the state.

            All have backfired.  Every.  Single. One.

            Second, the people of Japan have not "awoken" to any danger. They are quite aware of what their state is, how it acts, and the nuclear industry, their reliance on it for their energy needs, and the rock and hard place that reliance places on their nation.

             

  •  A million dead since Fukushima. (0+ / 0-)

    Can anyone guess why?

    •  No don't tell us, it was coal, (0+ / 0-)

      was it coal? Did coal do it? We need to be radio active to keep coal down, is that right? Did i get it right?

      "We need nukes to stop carbon" is so old.

      Aint gonna happen.

      Are you on any board or committee? What state?

      •  I know it's tedious. (0+ / 0-)

        Doesn't change the fact that we haven't actually solved the problem yet.

        •  Nor is strychnine a cure for arsenic. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          workingforprogress

          Neither is cancer a cure for ebola.


          "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

          by Jim P on Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 09:08:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  *sigh* (0+ / 0-)

            I'm trying to get you guys to look at the real world consequences of a rush to eliminate nuclear power. Both Japan and Germany have made up for the shortfall in part by dramatically increasing their usage of fossil fuels.

            That's a big problem, and you're not going to make it go away by spouting slogans.

            •  You will either de-industrialize Japan (0+ / 0-)

              or build more NG and coal plants. Guess which is the way de-carbonizing Japan is going to go? SInce it is DE-carbonizing the energy sector that is going to fight against climate change.

              Japan will commit national ecoloigical suicide if it really gets rid of it's nukes. Destroy itself.

              Switzerland is already re-considering it's totally emotional reaction to Fukushima and is likely to phase out it's phase out.

              Japan's carbon footprint is increasing already since March...OH...but that's "OK" because it means less nuclear. Less nuclear means more carbon.

              Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

              by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 09:14:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hello David. You keep doing the same (0+ / 0-)

                thing: Make statements without sourcing them, thus forcing me go look up the real facts, but that's ok. I learn a lot that way.

                Switzerland: An interview with Jean-Christophe Füeg, head of international energy affairs at the Federal Energy Office, explains why, despite the decision to phase out nuclear power in Switzerland, the door remains open for the construction of new generation reactors. SOURCE: http://www.swissinfo.ch/...
                Published TODAY, I read this:

                The Swiss government declared in May that it would phase out the use of nuclear power by 2034. But is the door still open for the construction of new generation reactors in the future?
                J-C.F.: Yes, definitely. The door is always open in Switzerland, as in the end it’s always the people who decide; it’s a matter of ten or 20 years. Today’s governmental decision reflects today’s state of public opinion. No one can tell what the future holds.

                Now that is quite different from what you said. It's similar to Germany: The people decide, how's that for a novel idea? You are cherry-picking and twisting facts to suit your agenda. I won't stop calling you out on this until you start telling the truth. You only harm yourself and your credibility (that is, if you have any left on this site) by doing that. You know, we would probably agree on lots of things if it weren't for this particular topic. I'm really enjoying this, though. It's a challenge to refute you and very satisfying that I'm honing my research and debate skills, thanks to you. ;-) Have a great day, it's nighttime here in Deutschland.

                A proud supporting member of Native American Netroots

                by translatorpro on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 12:37:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-)
                  A Senate committee in Switzerland has drafted three new texts on nuclear power policy, all of them explicitly keeping the technology available and banning only 'current generation' designs.

                  The texts are the latest versions of cabinet proposals that originally sought to ban construction of any new nuclear power reactors. Three texts to this effect were approved by the National Council in June. Those moved on to the Senate, where a committee yesterday produced new versions which, crucially, would only ban construction of reactors like those currently in use - and not the latest models.

                  All the new-build options on the table for Switzerland referred to Generation-III reactor designs, which include more recent design principles and safety features than the current Generation-II designs that make up the bulk of the global reactor fleet.

                  The three new wordings will face a Senate vote, expected on 28 September, and then be sent back to the National Council for a new debate and vote there.

                  Whatever new build policy the two houses eventually decide on, the cabinet would then draft enacting legislation that will again have to survive debate and votes in both houses. The overall process may also require a public referendum as a constitutional matter. Complicating things further is the fact that a general election takes place on 23 October, positioning energy and nuclear safety issues as a campaign topic.

                  WNN  http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/...

                  The Swiss have not had a discussion. They will over the next year. As they realized they don't want to be in the same position as Italy, they are likely to reconsider. The Swiss take their time, historically, with big decisions. As the Senate will reconsider and the National Council does the same thing, it will be a year at least. Then over many years as opposition by conservative Swiss folks won't like the idea of raising their electric rates several hundred percent to give the subsidies ('feedin tariffs') to those building wind and solar (likely not solar, likely a lot of wind if they do it).

                  Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

                  by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 04:47:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Nuclear Power is a Big Problem. (0+ / 0-)

              Ask Japan.

              You aren't going to make that go away by pretending the issue is either nukes or fossil and nothing else.


              "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

              by Jim P on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 05:00:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  So recall can recall (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Andhakari

    It may take thousands and thousands of workers to this, but I'd like that.

    Seventeen Nuclear plants worth of solar peak power shipped in 2010. (alone)

    ~~ 17 ~~

    And if you are still with me:

    WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is providing a loan guarantee for a massive solar energy project that could double the number of glimmering solar panels on residential rooftops in the U.S.

    The Energy Department said Wednesday it provided a partial guarantee for a $344 million loan to San Mateo, Calif.-based SolarCity for the SolarStrong Project, which seeks to place solar panels on 160,000 homes across 124 military bases in 33 states.

    ....yep, no coal here.

    •  Obama is promoting solar, and that's great. (0+ / 0-)

      What you are doing is advocating policies that are promoting fossil fuel use right now.

      YOKOSUKA, Japan — The half-century-old, oil-fueled power generators here had been idle for more than a year when, a day after the nuclear accident in March, orders came from Tokyo Electric Power headquarters to fire them up.
      “They asked me how long it would take,” said Masatake Koseki, head of the Yokosuka plant, which is 40 miles south of Tokyo and run by Tokyo Electric. “The facilities are old, so I told them six months. But they said, ‘No, you must ready them by summer to prepare for an energy shortage.’ ”

      Now, at summer’s peak, Yokosuka’s two fuel-oil and two gas turbines are cranking out a total of 900,000 kilowatts of electricity — and an abundance of fumes.

      The generators are helping to replace the 400 million kilowatt-hours of daily electricity production lost this summer because of the shutdown of all but 15 of Japan’s 54 nuclear reactors in the wake of the Fukushima Daiichi disaster. Across the country, dozens of other fossil-fuel plants have been fired up, and Japan is importing billions of dollars worth of liquefied natural gas, coal and oil to keep them running.

      link

      •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Recall

        Close 'em down.

        I will rely on you to stop the shipments of carbon fuels.

        I and 80% of the Japanese public will just go on our merry way closing down the Nukes.

        •  Recced for honesty. (0+ / 0-)

          You're the first anti-nuke person who's willing to admit that.

          •  I was anti carbon for forty years. (0+ / 0-)

            I am more anti carbon now than I was then. Nothing alters my deep conviction that we must pivot to solar tide and wind.

            NOTHING alters my deep conviction that that the threat of nuclear is not just greater, but deeper. And that is knowing what carbon is capable of.

            The oceans are becoming acid.

            End nukes, end carbon. Build green jobs with green energy.

            •  Your convictions are dead wrong. (0+ / 0-)
               I was anti carbon for forty years. (0+ / 0-)
              I am more anti carbon now than I was then. Nothing alters my deep conviction that we must pivot to solar tide and wind.

              NOTHING alters my deep conviction that that the threat of nuclear is not just greater, but deeper. And that is knowing what carbon is capable of.

              What you were told about carbon 40 years ago was not the whole picture. It has turned out to be far, far more dangerous to the longterm health of the planet than anyone ever thought.

              •  You put it in quotes, but didnt read it. (0+ / 0-)
                •  I read it. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  workingforprogress

                  You erroneously believe that nuclear power is worse than fossil fuels, when fossil fuels are a far greater danger.

                  •  Recced for honesty (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jim P

                    You're the first pro-nuke person who's willing to admit that.

                  •  Fortunately, the world is trending away (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Andhakari, workingforprogress

                    from both of them. If coal kills and harms x, nuclear's effect on the sum remains additive, you've got x+n. In fact, if anything, the presence of either enhances the negative effects of the other.

                    Since you need, and estimates vary, from 15,000 to 40,000 nukes to replace coal, and we have a bit more than 430 now, it's absurd to keep pretending that nukes are the solution to fossil fuels. Since the basic nuclear plant costs anywhere from 1 to 4 billion dollars each (not counting overruns) you're looking at

                    $1,000,000,000 x 15,000 =
                    $15,000,000,000,000 up to x 4 =
                    $60,000,000,000,000

                    That's $15 Trillion to $60 Trillion. For 15,000 plants. For 40,000 you'd need to multiply those numbers by 2.67, that's $40 Trillion to $240 Trillion.

                    And even if, in your wildest dreams we could find the money, and the place to put them, how long before we hit peak uranium, and the costs become impossible to sustain?

                    Time to drop the tired, and ludicrous, notion that the coal/fossil problem can be solved by nukes. In fact, it's just plain whacky.

                    The joining of the two as the only possible choices, nuclear and fossil/coal, is risible. Nuclear can only die from here, even if propped up temporarily until the next "impossible" accident happens. And everyone knows damned well it will.


                    "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

                    by Jim P on Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 09:26:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I support all non-fossil fuel forms of energy. (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't think that nuclear power should be our only source of fuel, but I do think that we should take advantage of it where we can.

                      Time to drop the tired, and ludicrous, notion that the coal/fossil problem can be solved by nukes.

                      CO2 doesn't cause cancer. Cesium doesn't cause global warming. You are choosing to conflate seperate problems for the sake of a good catchphrase, and we had enough of that in the 'Axis of Evil' days.

                    •  This is stupid on your part JIM: (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Recall

                      "15,000 to 40,000 nukes to replace coal"

                      It would take 300 nukes to shut down every coal plant in the US. It would take about 1,000 to do so in China. Where does "...40,000" come from? We need 6,000 nukes to shut down ALL fossil fuel generation in the world.

                      But the real truth here is that most of you are MORE worried about nuclear than abating carbon and climate change. This is the truly sad thing.

                      Fortunately most of the world isn't listening to Western liberal cry babies. China, S. Korea, Vietnam, India and how of other countries ARE nuclearizing their economies, thank god.

                      And they are going into solar and wind as well.

                      The future...and suckers bet on Japan, is that nuclear is going to always be around and slightly increasing. The future is the multiple "wedge" (nonsense) scenarios of nuclear wind hydro solar tidal. Why? Because it IS happening factually. That IS the future.

                      Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

                      by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 09:19:18 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Which is it, shut down coal or end (0+ / 0-)

                        fossil fuel? All the other fossil fuels have negative health and climate consequences as well.

                        If you want to limit the discussion to Coal, then even your low-ball 300 plants aren't EVER going to be built in the US. No dough, nobody going to let them get built near them. You can try but you'll never get there, and what we'll end up with is what we have now, Nuclear AND Coal, except both of which suck supremely.

                        The Coal vs Nuke, the Fossil vs Nuke argument is nonsense.

                        Nobody in their right mind is going to say that we will not have a major nuke disaster, or two, or five, in the next day to thirty years, and you see what is happening to Japan as the result of just one.

                        Nukes are dead. The next disaster -- there will be a next disaster -- will put the stake in the heart, the bullet in the zombie's brain, and that's just reality.

                        Why risk it, why waste time with it.


                        "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

                        by Jim P on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 05:10:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If I go into detail on this, are you ... (0+ / 0-)
                          Which is it, shut down coal or end (0+ / 0-)
                          fossil fuel? All the other fossil fuels have negative health and climate consequences as well.

                          ... actually going to read what I say?

                          You haven't given me much reason to think that you will.

                        •  Jim there about 700 coal plants in the US. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Jim P

                          I think you would agree with this number. They produce 50% (49.1% I think is the exact number) of our generation. Our generation is about 1000 GW in terms of capacity. I think it's about 800GWs of actual production.

                          The 500GWs of coal capacity can be replaced with 300, maybe 350 nuclear power plants.

                          You just can't acknowledge that any power source that can produce on demand power can replace any other power source with on demand power, can you?

                          That the 20% of carbon free energy from nuclear replaced an equal amount of coal and oil (in fact it replaced about the old 15% of US generation that was produced from burning oil in the 1970s).

                          All issues aside -- safety, centralization of power, utilities, lies, truth, climate change, etc -- you have to acknowledge that nuclear can replace coal and oil where it's used to generate electricity.

                          Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

                          by davidwalters on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:24:12 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Sure, but on real earth there's no money (0+ / 0-)

                            and no desire to have a plant built next to one's home. Even going with your 300, that's $300B-$1.2T in cash. Before overruns, before storage costs, before socialized costs in radioactive releases... Now opponents say up to 1,000 in the US, proponents say the 300 you use.

                            So theoretically you can replace the coal, but you'd still have the other major fossils. So we'll have both kinds of poisons, not just the one. And then the getting of the uranium itself, which will only grow more expensive as you build more plants, is a big user of fossil. It's a whacky way to get water to boil.

                            Here's the reality: there will be another nuclear disaster. You are not insane, and you will not assert you know there won't be. Reason trumps sums, graphs, and calculations based on the past projected into the future, every time. We've got 434 plants, every microsecond they don't fall apart, is just raising the odds that they will. Just like any other mechanical device which has ever been created by humans.

                            btw, sorry I don't have the link handy, but famous France has actually seen it's carbon emissions increase every year, even though they have nuclear.

                            If it's not in my lifetime, it will be in my son's, or his kids that we have another disaster. And then that's it: these suckers will be shut down.

                            Meanwhile: http://www.dailykos.com/...(Cover-Washington-DC-with-Solar-PV!).

                            Nuclear doesn't solve any problems, it just compounds them, and adds new ones. Why not go for the real fix, not the faux one?


                            "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

                            by Jim P on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 09:19:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The reality: we have two Chernobyls a year. (0+ / 0-)
                            Here's the reality: there will be another nuclear disaster.

                            Even if you use the most hyperbolic, non-peer reviewed numbers for nuclear disasters, they still pale in comparison to our fossil fuel "non-disaster".

      •  and the point of the comment that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jim P

        you dismissed with:"Obama is promoting solar, and that's great."

        is that last year SEVENTEEN nuclear plants worth of solar peak energy were shipped.

        17

        lets double that every year.

        And Kids? Just say no to drugs nukes.

        •  You were blatantly changing the subject ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... in an attempt to evade discussing the actual consequences of what you're advocating.

          •  America hasnt built ONE reactor in 25 years (0+ / 0-)

            but 17 reactors worth of solar peak power were shipped in 2010, the point, of this delightful fact, is that adding 17 more is smarter, produces more jobs, has political backing, popular support, and doesn't irradiate our life envelope.

            Its also cheaper.

            All of which blow your carbon points into the Keystone Pipeline.

            Hey kids, when a stranger says, "Hey this candynuke is great, and asks you to get in his anticarbon car, scream "proNuke!!" until an adult comes to take you home.

            •  You wanted to talk about Japan's nukes when you (0+ / 0-)
              America hasnt built ONE reactor in 25 years (0+ / 0-)
              but 17 reactors worth of solar peak power were shipped in 2010, the point, of this delightful fact, is that adding 17 more is smarter, produces more jobs, has political backing, popular support, and doesn't irradiate our life envelope.

              Its also cheaper.

              All of which blow your carbon points into the Keystone Pipeline.

              Hey kids, when a stranger says, "Hey this candynuke is great, and asks you to get in his anticarbon car, scream "proNuke!!" until an adult comes to take you home.

              wrote this diary, why the change the subject now?

              •  Arguing about arguing is changing the subject. (0+ / 0-)

                Looking for a "win" ? I am working my hardest to get all nukes out of the tiny fragile life envelope.

                My point here, citing Japan for example, is to connect our efforts with the mass of people world round who are working as hard or harder than we are to shut them down, stop their construction.

                Identifying American supporters, so their stealth cannot surprise us later when they spring their plans for more points of radiation exposure.

                Keep the Memorial, formerly known as a moratorium, on American Nukes, is certainly part of the process, a big part, but as the life envelope is so small, so unique, so fragile, that struggle has to be worldwide. Particulate fallout from Japan is present, if too small yet to increase risk much, or so most scientists attest, but it is telling.

                •  Your activism is destroying the environment. (0+ / 0-)
                  I am working my hardest to get all nukes out of the tiny fragile life envelope.

                  My point here, citing Japan for example, is to connect our efforts with the mass of people world round who are working as hard or harder than we are to shut them down, stop their construction.

                  Instead of looking for more supporters to pat you on the back, you should take a few moments to consider the consequences of your actions. Replacing nukes with fossil fuels jeopardizes the progress we've made towards dealing with the greatest environmental problem humanity has ever faced.

            •  You mean like the 4 under consturction now? (0+ / 0-)

              what is with you people? You think history is a stagent paradigm where what went on in the past doesn't change? Really?

              I don't hold out much hope that the US will ever decarbonize with wind and solar married full face to natural gas. You have to look at this on a planetary scale. The US hasn't built a single plant in 25 years. So? Does this mean the discount rate is the same at it was in 1980? That no new technologies have come down the pike? That other countries haven't built nukes in this period? And on time? And at budget? Just curious but don't you READ? The US has stood still (obviously as we delocalized our industiral base to Asia) but the rest of the world is bypassing us big time, especially with nuclear energy.

              Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

              by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 09:23:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am not pleased that the world (0+ / 0-)

                is "passing us by" on nuclear, because that means some "spinners and media controllers" like the British government, are lying to people.

                Most recently it has been revealed that the UK government has been coordinating stories with the radiation industry to play down the crisis in Japan.

                Leaks Show UK Government Colluded with Nuclear Industry To Use PR To Down Play Fukushima Accident  

                Its nothing, the exclusion zone is "only" 20 km, they say, but the water in Tokyo is too radioactive for the already too lenient  standards for children. Its nothing, no one has died, but thousands are irradiated. It's nothing they are rebuilding, but Japanese exports are being blocked.
                Its nothing they say, Chernobyl was worse, but Fukushima is months away from controlling the radiation, months away as radiation levels are increasingly preventing remediation.

                Its nothing, they say, but we are going to stop it.

    •  This would be more significant (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Recall, Mcrab, Blubba

      if the qualifier "peak power" were not there.  Yes, at peak power - midday sun - there is this level of power delivery.  But that is FAR from the equivalent 24/7 energy provided by 17 nuclear plants.  A more relevant figure would be the total usable GW-HOURS generated by solar.  (I say usable because power dumped to dummy loads due to over-production during peak generation is simply wasted.)

      This peak power statistic makes it sound to the casual observer that solar can currently replace 17 nuclear plants worth of generating capacity.  That is hardly the case.

      Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

      by kbman on Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes yes, it only produces power when people are (0+ / 0-)

        awake.

        Here is the German experience with alternate power, so we can compare oranges to oranges, as you don't like paek apples.

        The "pattern" of energy supply, the infrastructure of energy delivery will change, and the price structure may change.

        So?

        I good with that.

        Pivot now to safe renewable, take no guff about difficulty, no sidesteps into dangerous alternatives.

        No nukes, green now. Its growing, its popular, its cheap, its safe, it creates jobs, its pretty.

        •  This is why they've built gas turbines all (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kbman

          over Germany and have TWO pipleines ready to supply MORE gas. Well done.

          Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

          by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 09:24:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  David, we can't help you. (0+ / 0-)

            We demand windmills, we demand solar, we demand tide energy, we demand geothermal.

            All will reduce carbon emissions, each will create jobs, each will build capacity for technology export increases, each will build our capacity to bypass death dealing energy systems.

            All Japanese windmills survived the quake, the tsunami and are producing power.

            Stop promoting danger, stop promoting wasting money, stop promoting energy industry concentration. Stop promoting the stockpiling of 'used' radioactive materials.

            Start working for the next generation of decentralized power generation.

            If you care at all about green energy, promote green energy, and get off the nuclear industry best buddies program.

  •  Post-tsunami Japan sticking with nuclear power (0+ / 0-)
    •  Doesn't contradict anything in the Post. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mythatsme, Andhakari

      For the time being, they have to "stick with nuclear" BUT they are not going to renew them as their time comes due. The PM said so, and is quoted.

      Nuclear is fucked. The next "impossible" accident -- and who in their right mind is going to bet there will not be a "next accident" -- is going to drive the stake right through the heart of this grotesque method of boiling water.


      "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

      by Jim P on Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 09:32:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't know very much about Japan (0+ / 0-)

        if you think that 'cause the present PM says something, it binds anybody other than him, and not even that.

        I am sorry, but you really do not know what you are talking about.

  •  Not wrong: just insensitive. (0+ / 0-)
    Japan's trade minister has resigned, after just eight days in office, following two separate incidents where comments he made were deemed to be inappropriate and insensitive.

    Yoshio Hachiro announced his departure at a news conference late on Saturday, apologising repeatedly for calling the evacuated area around the stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant "a town of death".

    From the Guardian a couple days ago:

    [The Prime Minister's] unease grew when his trade minister, Banri Kaieda, told him that Tepco was considering pulling its staff out of the plant and leaving it to its fate. "Withdrawing from the plant was out of the question," he said. "If that had happened, Tokyo would be deserted by now. It was a critical moment for Japan's survival. It could have been a led to leaks of dozens of times more radiation than Chernobyl."

    Kan demanded an explanation from Tepco's then president, Masataka Shimizu, but "he never told me anything clearly".


    It's hysterical that we're still discussing nuclear power as having any long-term viability at all, as if a great nation might want to just hand over its future to the fucking Yakuza.
    Yeah, we need the power, but this is totally fucking insane. If humanity can't do better than this we may as well just put our collective head between our legs and kiss our big radioactive butts goodbye.

    "Our answer is more democracy, more openness, more humanity." ~Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg

    by Andhakari on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 01:16:12 AM PDT

  •  The state of one or two trees does not define the (0+ / 0-)

    forest.

    The truth is Three Mile Island impacted but did not halt nuclear power world wide. Neither did Chernobyl. Neither will Fukushima. Yes, Japan will restart most of their existing reactors but not build new reactors. Yes Germany has shut down some of their older reactors (much to the dismay of German business people who are already hinting of moving some of their operations out of the country because of the resulting increases in electricity costs). Beyond that? Well, England is still going full steam ahead with the construction of a bunch of new reactors. China has around 17 under construction and South Korea is building seven. The US is completing two older reactors and will likely begin construction of at least one new reactor within a year. There are around 60 reactors currently being built world wide with plans for more.

    The world has been completing around 5 nuclear plants a year for the past 20 years. That pace is scheduled to increase with over a dozen reactors expected to come on line next year and every year for the next several.

    I am not claiming this is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just stating reality.

  •  I guess it will take 3 clear strikes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    workingforprogress

    to knock out nuclear energy for developed countries.

    Kan defended the gradual widening of the exclusion zone, and his conversion to a non-nuclear energy policy: "If there is a risk of accidents that could make half the land mass of our country uninhabitable, then we cannot afford to take that risk."
    People have an amazing capacity to deny uncomfortable truths, but when New York has to be evacuated, or when a chunk of France becomes uninhabitable, or even a strip of coastal India is written off - finally, maybe, we can get past the "it'll never happen again" BS.

    "Our answer is more democracy, more openness, more humanity." ~Norwegian PM Jens Stoltenberg

    by Andhakari on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 07:13:22 AM PDT

    •  Andharkar prays then for more accidents? (0+ / 0-)

      Each is a distinct set of circumstances. Real problem solvers look at the actual incidents, come up with solutions, and re-examine all assumptions. That is actually what most nuclear countries are doing, as they should (including the US), in the wake of Fukushima. China, S. Korea, Vietnam, UAE, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, India, Russia, Brazil and so on are all expanding and actively developing their nuclear energy sector.

      We look at what makes economic sense, what can account for a growing usage of energy and try to fill the needs of that increasing load.

      Andhakari like many others has their had burried as if the reaction in Japan by most Japanese is automatically transferable to the rest of the world, or that it's even permanent, or that it will actually change a damn thing.

      As I noted above the Swiss are already reconsidering their move away from nuclear, now demanding replacement of their older Gen II reactors with safer Gen III reactors. And thus it begins, again.

      Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

      by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 09:29:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Every coastal area is going to be written off. (0+ / 0-)
      People have an amazing capacity to deny uncomfortable truths, but when New York has to be evacuated, or when a chunk of France becomes uninhabitable, or even a strip of coastal India is written off - finally, maybe, we can get past the "it'll never happen again" BS.

      There's  this global warming thing, you know.

      •  One would have to ask how could this actually (0+ / 0-)

        happen, as well. Note likely. With ever new forms of nuclear energy/reactors, the issue of Fukushima-like events rececedes further into the past.

        Dr. Isaac Asimov: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny ...'"

        by davidwalters on Sun Sep 11, 2011 at 04:42:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Endposting, the last gasp of spinners (0+ / 0-)

          welcome, however belatedly, to making comments. Talking helps us define our understanding, and contrary comments can help too, even if filled with errors.

          Identifying nuke supporters helps determine who to prevent from holding offices, offices with powers that may endanger us.

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