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ORC for CNN (PDF). 9/9-11. Republicans. MoE ±4.5% (8/24-25):

Rick Perry: 32 (32)
Mitt Romney: 21 (18)
Ron Paul: 13 (6)
Michele Bachmann: 7 (12)
Newt Gingrich: 7 (7)
Herman Cain: 6 (3)
Jon Huntsman: 2 (1)
Rick Santorum: 2 (1)
Someone else (vol.): 2 (4)
None/ No one (vol.): 4 (6)
No opinion: 3 (4)

I guess Mitt Romney is discovering Rick Perry didn't lose the campaign after all when he said Social Security was a "monstrous lie" and a "Ponzi scheme." In fact, if anybody's losing, it's Mitt. Check out the trend lines between Romney and Perry:

CNN Poll
So after Romney landed the "knockout" blow during last week's debate ... nothing. And it's not too complicated to understand why it hasn't hurt Perry: while he may be out of step with most Americans when it comes to Social Security and Medicare, when it comes to Republicans, Rick Perry is right in the mainstream. Mitt Romney isn't, and his attacks on Perry will seem increasingly desperate to Republican primary voters.

Romney's trying to make the case that the problem with Perry's Social Security stance is that it makes him unelectable, but even that isn't working: 42% say RomneyPerry is the most electable Republican candidate, compared with 26% for Romney.

It'll be interesting to see how Romney handles the issue in tonight's debate on CNN. Perhaps he'll be the one on the defensive. The debate begins at 8 PM ET and we'll be blogging it live right here on Daily Kos.

A few other things to note: This is a national poll, yet there is no national primary. So it doesn't take the primary calendar into account. A candidate like Bachmann is betting it all on Iowa; if she were to win Iowa, she'd probably jump back into contention.

CNN also tested a hypothetical slate including Sarah Palin. Romney and Perry stayed at about the same level, but Palin moved into third with 15 percent, bumping Bachmann down to 4 percent. Palin probably isn't running, but if she were to run, she'd reconfigure the race for third place.

Finally, take a look at Jon Huntsman's numbers. On the up side, he doubled his support. And the down side, he went from 1 percent to 2 percent. He has never in any poll demonstrated anything approaching a meaningful base of support, and he doesn't have a credible path to winning any of the early states, yet he gets more coverage than just about any other candidate in the bottom tier. It makes zero sense.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Elections on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:30 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  LOL OMG I thought Romney will surge with 8pt (6+ / 0-)

    HAHAHAHAHA I'm too rational to be Republican

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:32:45 AM PDT

  •  It's not that hard to understand. Rick Perry will (7+ / 0-)

    be the Republican nominee and he has a very good chance at defeating president Obama, no matter what he says about Social Security or Medicare, etc.

    The populace despises weakness and equivocation in a candidate more than anything else.

    •  Strong and Wrong beats Weak and Right (6+ / 0-)

      every time...

      Too bad our side doesn't get it...

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:42:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't think Perry can defeat Obama in a general (7+ / 0-)

      election. He is the weakest against Obama that's why Karl Rove is working hard to stop him from being the nominee.

      But I agree with you, Perry will be the Nominee no matter what. I said it last week. Last week Perry won the debate despite the Pundits spin. And he will win tonight debate.

      "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

      by LaurenMonica on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:45:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A piece of lint has a chance against Obama... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike

        Considering the energy lined up against him on the far right, the profound frustration by the indies, and the malaise felt by the left. It will be an uphill slog against any one of the candidates and I'm beginning to wonder if we should be pulling for a more moderate Repub considering that dipshit Perry will set the country on fire.

        •  Perry is loathed by the Dem Base and reminds ppl (6+ / 0-)

          of Bush enough to get the base fired up to defeat him in 2012. Perry's past secessionist talks are enough to turn off Indies.

          Indies aren't anti-federal government and know the history of this country and won't give Perry a pass for his secessionist talks.

          "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

          by LaurenMonica on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:55:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Conservative Democrats (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yellowstone2011, LordMike

          have been left out the last 5 years. Now it's coming home to roost? Media has reinforced the message that Democrat=spendthrift. Obama trying to cajole listeners that Republicans agree with him now? Just makes him look like a weak triangulator.

      •  Actually, not so. It's very highly possible (6+ / 0-)

        that Perry will beat President Obama. Why? The economy.

        I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

        by slinkerwink on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:54:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Everything is possible I agree. But Obama can and (6+ / 0-)

          might beat Perry. Why? Bush.

          "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

          by LaurenMonica on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:57:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I wish people would take this threat (6+ / 0-)

          seriously. Perry's campaign tactics will make Rove's dirty tricks look like junior high pranks. He has no moral compass and will stop at nothing to advance his march to the White House. He's got unlimited funding through his "pay-to-play" promises for mega-donors, and voters are looking for a change. It's an incendiary combination: ignorance + greed + evil.

          You cannot enlighten the unconscious.

          by cassandracarolina on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:17:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Take Seriously or Defeatist Talk? (0+ / 0-)

            I find all of this hand-wringing over the inevitability of President Perry when the first primary is four months away and the ones that will really decide it more then six months from now ridiculous. I for one don't care who wins the Republican Primary, because it is pretty clear that whoever the nominee is they would be unacceptable. When the time comes, nobody is going to be taken an Obama win for granted. However, I fail to see the point of working ourselves into a state of depression when nobody knows how this plays out in the end.

      •  i think it'll be a tougher fight than (3+ / 0-)

        it should be, that's what.

        Obama should be able to landslide someone as nutty as Perry. But he won't. We have a shot at winning but we also have a very real risk of losing. The man is a damned good campaigner, regardless of how I feel about his wackadoodle policies.

        Obama's no slouch, mind you, he's a pretty good campaigner too but really he's got some string disadvantages this time out and we are vulnerable. No doubt about it.

        It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

        by mdmslle on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:18:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perry will definitely be the nominee (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassandracarolina, LordMike

        Against Obama? Not sure. It depends a lot on what happens over the next year, I guess. I'd hate to think that a pol like Perry even has a shot at that much power, but welcome to America.

      •  Why is anyone surprised (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sunbro, LordMike, txdemfem

        You are dealing with a primary electorate that at least half of whom believed he was/is born in Kenya, Muslim and a Communist/Socialist.

        In fact if you could get inside the heads of the GOP voter you would find probably 75% actually firmly believed those accusationsw but some were too afraid to admit it. Even now probably 33% of these lunatics still believe those things. in fact they would deport Obama if they could.

        No, I'm not kidding.

        Perry baring a scandal will win the nomination and will
        not beat Obama, not a chance and the protestations of Rove & Co. are proof positive of this.

      •  Rove is working hard against him for personal... (0+ / 0-)

        ...reasons.  If Perry wins, he starves all the money out of Rove's coffers and make Rove irrelevant.

        GODSPEED TO THE WISCONSIN FOURTEEN!

        by LordMike on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 09:57:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not So Sure Perry is a lock (0+ / 0-)

        Look at all of the big states that Perry has to take, most of which are not filled with the kind of Republicans that want to end SS and Medicare: CA (55), NY (29), FL (29), PA(20), OH (18), MI (16), MA (11).

        I am convinced that most Republican Primary voters are not paying any attention to the debates right now and national polls are only a measure of name recognition and a vague notion of what that candidate is like.  Most of them have no idea what he said at the latest debate or what is in his book. I am willing to bet if the question posed to Republican voters was "Perry wants to end SS and Medicare do you support him for President?" his number would not look so hot right now.

    •  So much FAIL here... (9+ / 0-)

      1) There is no way in hell Rick Perry will beat Barack Obama in a general election.

      2) While Obama would beat Perry no matter what Perry said about Social Security, what Perry has said about Social Security has utterly doomed any chance Perry ever had to get elected president.

       3) For you to define Perry as a person who doesn't equivocate  sounds more like something coming out of Perry's campaign war room than it does a Daily Kos comment.

       4) What the puplic despises is when a small cabal of resentful white people who becomes sexually aroused over eliminationist rhetoric (aka,  Republican party primary voters) propels unhinged nutcases onto the national presidential election stage.

      When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

      by wyvern on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:10:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wishful thinking. The concepts of strength and (5+ / 0-)

        equivocation when it comes to politics are all about perception.  If you are perceived to be weak, to back down, to give-in, to not fight for what you believe in, then you'll pay the consequences.

        •  Okay, I get it... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sunbro, txdemfem, dfe

          ..Obama is the milksop intellectual who pees his pants when things gets dicey;   Perry is the damn the torpedoes Daddy figure that is going to protect us from the terrorists, atheists, Muslims & Socialists.

          I'll just cherry pick this one thing since I could give you a thousand word response that would be full of nothing but factual & anecdotal evidence that Perry is doomed as a presidential candidate:

          Perry sunk his own ship with his "Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme" crack.

          Outside of the Daily Kos echo chamber (an echo chamber that seriously defined Michelle Bachmann as "disciplined") Perry is seen as a cooked goose.

          Just because a bunch of psychopaths roar with approval when Perry brags about how many death row imates he has murdered...that does not automatically mark Perry the next president of the United States.

          When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

          by wyvern on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:34:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Dismiss Perry as unelectable at your peril! (5+ / 0-)

        Do not doubt for a second that he can win.  Perry is the most dangerous when we forget what we are up against.

        •  I am defintely... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dfe

          ..dismissing Perry.

          I am dismissing him as being capable of winning a presidential election going against Barack Obama.

          What's in peril here is your emotions & ability to reason:  Please get those in check.

          When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

          by wyvern on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:37:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Two words: George Dubya (0+ / 0-)

        I'm glad you're fired up and shit, but discounting the chance that Perry has against Obama in this economic/political environment is really just delusional. Bush got elected not once, but twice. I wouldn't put anything past this electorate. This isn't real to a lot of them... it's reality tv.

        •  The dude called Social Security a monstrous lie. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sunbro, txdemfem, dfe, wyvern

          On camera.

          There's a reason that all the GOP establishment is lining up against the dude.

          On issues like that, the economic uncertainty may actually help Obama.

          During times like this, people are even more supportive of SS and medicare benefits. They'll support tweaks around the edges to make them more solvent. They won't support a candidate that appears not to believe in the very concept.

          Rick W. Perry will not be elected President in 2012.

    •  Every Tornado: "Obama's Katrina?" But Texas Fires (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LaurenMonica, salmo, sunbro

      .....did not bring the press leaping to hang the "Katrina" tag on Gov. Goodhair.

      There is still a honeymoon period in effect here.

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:21:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  uh oh (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro, LordMike
    Finally, take a look at Jon Huntsman's numbers. On the up side, he doubled his support. And the down side, he went from 1 percent to 2 percent. He has never in any poll demonstrated anything approaching a meaningful base of support, and he doesn't have a credible path to winning any of the early states, yet he gets more coverage than just about any other candidate in the bottom tier. It makes zero sense.

    it'll give the wingers another piece of "evidence" in their theory that the media is liberal

  •  Whoops--guessing "Romney" should be "Perry" here? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mdmslle, sunbro, Sychotic1, MartyM, mconvente

    Where I've bolded:

    Romney's trying to make the case that the problem with Perry's Social Security stance is that it makes him unelectable, but even that isn't working: 42% say Romney is the most electable Republican candidate, compared with 26% for Romney.
  •  Correction needed Jed: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, sunbro, MartyM, mconvente
    42% say Romney is the most electable Republican candidate, compared with 26% for Romney.

    It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

    by mdmslle on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:40:01 AM PDT

  •  Pundits were wrong again??! (8+ / 0-)

    NO WAY!!!

    As I said immediately...

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    On Perry, his support will go up, not down, in terms of his primary support.  Why?

    1.  Republicans like hearing anything that seems to refute what Democrats are saying.
    2.  He isn't saying anything uneducated voters will reject.  He basic case is SS needs fixing.  He just used a dramatic term.  His other option was flip flopping.  Republicans will reward the strength vs the policy 10 times out of 10.
    3.  If you wonder what happens to people who try to outflank Rs to the left on entitlements, look no further than Newt Gingrich.
    4.  Republicans will circle the wagons in the face of what seems like a media attack.
    5.  Remember when Senator Obama said he would negotiate with Iran.  The media pounced, to presumed front runner pounced, the President held strong, and it would up helping him.  This is no different.

    Lawrence O'Donnell...dead wrong in his analysis again...because he thinks Rick Perry is running in the West Wing primary...smh

    If Dems don't strongly create a far left firewall on SS, we will soon see a bunch of articles comparing SS to a Ponzi scheme and I guarantee non political voters will start buying the nonsense.

    Stop laughing and ACT.

    "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

    by justmy2 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:40:35 AM PDT

  •  Ron Paul (4+ / 0-)

    has also indoctrinated voters, especially the young, to believe Social Security is a "ponzi scheme."

    The GOP says -- "firefighters are thugs!"

    by MartyM on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:41:42 AM PDT

  •  I knew this wouldn't hurt Perry. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cassandracarolina, mconvente

    He's their guy. And short of a live boy or a dead girl, they will spin virtually anything he says or ignore it altogether. Wasn't it just the other day a couple GOP governors or state folks lined up behind Perry's statement about Social Security? I knew then, they like the guy and if they're busy trying to spin THAT, what else could he possibly say to turn the GOP primary voters against him?

    I have NO idea.

    It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

    by mdmslle on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:41:56 AM PDT

    •  He would never have doubled (6+ / 0-)

      down with that being tested with the right people..

      Romney polls the village....Perry polls the people who can vote for him...

      Perry is in touch with the grassroots...Romney is making the same mistakes Hillary made trying to  win points with the media...

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:44:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Perry's going for younger voters (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cassandracarolina, LaurenMonica

      like Ron Paul, with their "ponzi" scam.

      The GOP says -- "firefighters are thugs!"

      by MartyM on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:21:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problem is, the more he reassures older voters (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sunbro

        The more that trades off with the pitch he's making to the kiddies.

        If you've been working for 5-6 years, you're already paying into the system enough to have felt it in your paychecks.

        His argument to older voters is that they'll be taken care of, regardless. But SS is financed by current workers. So the reality becomes that current young workers aren't going to see benefits to the system they're paying into.

        Its only under Perry's idea that SS becomes a monstrous lie and a ponzi scheme.

        It is sort of irrelevant anyway. You can't get elected calling a cherished program a ponzi scheme.

  •  I guess I'll be drunk tonight if I have to (3+ / 0-)

    cover the GOP debate. sigh

    I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

    by slinkerwink on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:53:48 AM PDT

  •  Because the GOP base likes Perry's position (4+ / 0-)

    If Romney thinks running to Perry's left will get him better numbers, he must not be paying attention to what the GOP has turned into. The hardcore conservatives don't like Social Security.

    On the other hand, in the general election, it will be more effective for Obama hit Perry on.

    25, Male, CA-24, DK Elections Black Caucus Chair.

    by DrPhillips on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 07:54:15 AM PDT

    •  I don't get it, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cassandracarolina, singe, mdmslle

      why conservatives, not wealthy ones, but ordinary working folks, don't like Social Security. It may be the difference between Grandma able to stay in her own home, if she's frugal, and a dependent Grandma needing to live the rest of her life with younger relatives who are struggling themselves. Surely even low-info voters can understand that much. Does this appeal to them?

      •  cuz when they get their paycheck there's (4+ / 0-)

        that FICA deduction taken out and it's going to the giv-mint.

        That's why.

        they, like a 3 year old. are unable to connect the dots beyond what's immediately in front of them. "Hey! The govt took $77.53 out from my check! That's not right!"

        that's why.

        Now when they get old, and have nothing they'll be bitching about how they "paid into it and deserve it". Honestly. You can't try to figure it out. It's completely illogical.

        It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

        by mdmslle on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:24:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  they aren't converting ideology to logical outcome (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassandracarolina, dinazina, LordMike

        so they see no connection between killing off socialistic fdr stuff and their grandparents or themselves starving and not having any medical care. the whole attraction of ayn rand and the other mothers of right wing invention is that you can think that what you rant about and how you vote has no connection to your real life situation. it only matters that you are "winning" against some intergalactic battle with evil. very sad.

      •  it's not that they don't believe in it (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassandracarolina, dinazina, LordMike

        I think it's that younger people think it's not going to be there for them when they get older anyway. They think it will go bankrupt ( thanks media)

         I argue with people all the time about it when they say "Why should I pay for it now when it won't be there when I get old?"  

        •  hahaha (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dinazina, LordMike

          It definitely won't be there for them if they let Rick W. Perry take their money now to pay current beneficiaries and then end the program before they get to retire!

          Thats why you'll never get younger voters to vote to get rid of social security, in practice. Once you've hit 28, you've already been paying in for a number of years, and you're also contemplating your parents' retirement for the first time.

          There's a reason that the GOP leaders know they can't touch social security. There is no constituency for that position.

      •  They love Social Security, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassandracarolina, dinazina, LordMike

        for themselves. They hate that it's wasted on undeserving, shall we say, 'urban' Americans.

        When they say they're against Social Security, they're not against good Social Security. They're against that other kind.

        It's the whole 'keep the gov't out of my Medicare' thing. You're thinking about this rationally but it's irrational.

        I actually think that 'Ponzi scheme' is pretty good framing for Perry, politically speaking. Ten bucks says he's gonna come out with a better (and completely insane) program, one that only rewards real, hard-working Murkins, not the bad coastal parasites.

        "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

        by GussieFN on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:31:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  First good news in a while (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaurenMonica, mdmslle, txdemfem

    After seeing Perry in that last debate, I was nervous. He is the guy I want to see up against Obama. Yes, it will be uglier than a rattlesnake's guts boiling in the Texas sun, but Obama will beat him.  I was afraid he shot himself in the foot with the SS line, but I keep forgetting we're dealing with the Worst and the Dumbest when we talk about Republican primaries.

    •  I hope your right, but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle

      given the drubbing the Dems are about to take in NY9, it looks like people, even Dems, are angry enough at Obama to vote against him right now, according to PPP. Spite knows no logic. We are wading in to some truly dangerous territory.

    •  No, no... a thousand times no (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle, GussieFN

      Perry will appeal to millions of low-information voters who select their president based on fear, racism, xenophobia, greed, religious fervor, or the appeal of a swaggering bullshit artist.

      There are plenty of those people in America, and Perry's machine is getting out the vote.

      Be very, very careful what you're wishing for.

      You cannot enlighten the unconscious.

      by cassandracarolina on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:21:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Disagree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GussieFN, rennert, txdemfem

        I know there are lots of crazies and I know Perry will get lots of votes. But we are much more threatened by a Romney - who they'll see as reasonable and Presidential, ignoring his vacuousness - than we are by Perry, who is the proverbial bull in a china shop that will scare off anyone who isn't full blown wingnut.

      •  I think I'm with Hrubec. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        txdemfem

        All those xenophobic tribalist godhumpers will vote Republican no matter who the Republican is. They're locked in. They've vote Romney if they have to, just because Obama. But can Perry get anyone else?

        (Actually, I go back and forth on this every time I write a comment ...)

        "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

        by GussieFN on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:34:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perry doesn't need to get "anyone else" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlueInARedState

          if Obama's supposed supporters stay home and we don't GOTV.

          Immediately after the Prayer Event that Perry hosted in Houston, e-mails went out to all the attendees through one of the event organizers telling them how THEY could get involved getting out the conservative Christian vote. He'll have armies of people getting out the vote, while we sit around contemplating what's possible and not possible.

          You cannot enlighten the unconscious.

          by cassandracarolina on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:38:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually the godhumpers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GussieFN

          might reject Romney. The serious ones anyway. Romney would probably bring down their enthusiasm by a lot. But I think it would be more than made up for by middle of the road average Americans who think "we need a change" or "Obama's not up to the job" or all the low info claptrap that motivates the average voter.

      •  Can a charismatic candidate lose? (0+ / 0-)

        Since the dawn of television, the only two times a sitting President has been unseated is when an non-charismatic President faced off against a challenger who was a great orator and very charismatic (Carter-Reagan, Bush-Clinton).

        Obama is one of the best orators of our time. He is both telegenic and charismatic. Can Perry -- who is charismatic, but not a great orator -- overcome that?

        •  Perry's lack of charisma from our perspective (0+ / 0-)

          is seen as "tough-talking leadership" by his supporters.

          These are not ordinary times, and oratory will not carry the day in the face of fear, racism, xenophobia, and a desire to dump the status quo.

          You cannot enlighten the unconscious.

          by cassandracarolina on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 10:25:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  sidebar: computer decides (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    IBM's supercomputer system, best known for trouncing the world's best "Jeopardy!" players on TV, is being tapped by one of the nation's largest health insurers to help diagnose medical problems and authorize treatments.

    WellPoint Inc., which has 34.2 million members, will integrate Watson's lightning speed and deep health care database into its existing patient information, helping it choose among treatment options and medicines.

    2012 It's not about Obama it's about your Moma. ~ Rev. Al Sharpton

    by anyname on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:04:25 AM PDT

  •  fixer upper (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DGreenCPA, MartyM, mdmslle, sunbro
    but even that isn't working: 42% say Romney is the most electable Republican candidate, compared with 26% for Romney.

    You seem to be saying that Romney is more electable than Romney.  I think you meant to say that one of those is Perry.
  •  How out of step is Perry? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thematt523, sunbro

    There are two different issues:

    1) How do you assess the health of Social Security?
    2) What do you do about it?

    Perry is probably out of step with the mainstream on 2, but now so much on one.

    A lot of non-Republicans believe that Social Security will no longer be around when they retire, or will be severely diminished.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:10:34 AM PDT

  •  they consider him electable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro

    this goes back to what i was saying the other day, republican primary voters consider "electability" something else, or in another way than other people do.  

  •  Huntsman gets (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jerry056, sunbro

    more attention that warranted because he was hyped as the one that, if he got in, would instantly be Obama's biggest nightmare, since he was popular and reasonable. All of that fizzled, but the media is still blowing on the cinder hoping it will catch fire.

  •  Re: Huntsman (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    It makes sense when you look at it from the Karl Rove/RNC point of view.

    Rove hates Perry and the RNC sees him as a dangerous Tea Party pandering nutcase -- like Bachmann. They'd rather support someone dumb as rocks like Romney but he has the problem of having zero charisma -- for D&D fans, he rolled a 3. Santorum is nutty, unlikable and unelectable, Herman Cain is there as Reverse Obama from the 50th Century, and Newt Gingrich might just be the most detestable person in politics even if 7% of Republicans are his sycophants. Not a lot of choice if you're the establishment which leaves Huntsman. It's not that the GOP loves Huntsman, it's just that they need an attack dog against Perry while they hope that Romney finally beats Algernon to the cheese.

    This head movie makes my eyes rain.

    by The Lone Apple on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:14:45 AM PDT

  •  Gotta disagree on this one, Jed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cassandracarolina, txdemfem
    when it comes to Republicans, Rick Perry is right in the mainstream

    Perry might be in the "teaparty" mainstream, but the more he makes these kinds of statements and the more true mainstream republicans find out just who this nutjob is, the less they're going to be answering polling questions as they are right now.  Sometimes I wonder who the people are that are being polled in these, to be honest.  I have a number of republican friends and they absolutely HATE this Social Security stance Perry is taking.  I'm thinkin' that if Romney stays with his gameplan and keeps banging Perry on his far out statements/positions, the more he's going to gain in popularity with the majority of republicans.  There are a BUNCH of folks currently on Social Security and about to go on Social Security that aren't gonna go along with Perry's B.S.  

    - If you don't like gay marriage, blame straight people. They're the ones who keep having gay babies.

    by r2did2 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:16:26 AM PDT

    •  For Romney, the trouble is (0+ / 0-)

      that he'll have plenty of controversies of his own, and my guess is that they'll involve issues that make Republicans extremely uncomfortable (much more so than Perry's SS position does): things calling into question Romney's "purity" when it comes to abortion, gay rights, health care, climate change, etc.

      For Romney, the headwinds will be persistent. Perry, on the other hand, has the wind at his back.

  •  CNN GOP Tea Party Debate Tonight !!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    Political carnage guaranteed!

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:18:41 AM PDT

  •  Bachmann (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mconvente

    Its interesting that Bachman is cratering, but Paul and [somewhat] Romney are the ones gaining. I would have expected her voters to go to Perry and Paul.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that Bachman votes are going to Paul - it could be that her voters are going to Perry as fast as Perry's voters are going to Paul and Romney.

  •  Perry is going through a whole lot of (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mdmslle, LordMike

    retraining and coaching right now. He's still stupid, but he'll be retrained and repackaged by the time of the general. He'll be a very difficult challenge, not in the least because of his looks. He represents a sexual ideal for conservative men, both straight and gay.  That in itself is an enormous asset.

  •  perry easier to beat than mitt but more horrific (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, sunbro

    if he beats obama. what's a poor boy to do but play in a rock and roll banc?

  •  About Huntsman not making sense: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    He believes in Science, that's news for an R,  and why he gets coverage.

    and he doesn't have a credible path to winning any of the early states, yet he gets more coverage than just about any other candidate in the bottom tier. It makes zero sense.

    It's the fascism, stupid!

    by lastman on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:29:20 AM PDT

  •  He worrying about Social Security (0+ / 0-)

    When the State of Texas pension could become insolvent in few years ,quicker than Social Security will be , is the State of Texas pension fund  a   Ponzi scheme ,these people will be left without  any pension plan ,they are not elgible for Social Security because they are vested in another pension that is not  guaranteed by the US government

  •  Stupid and Evil (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro

    That's basically what has become of the Republican party, now that a violent sociopathic Jesus freak leads the polls for the nomination. The Republican party is the greatest threat to the world today.

  •  Zero sense? That's the "gatekeepers" showing (0+ / 0-)

    their preferences.  It makes perfect sense.

    Obama is "a good man" to many democrats like Bush was "a good man" to republicans.

    by The Dead Man on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:39:30 AM PDT

  •  ROMNEY'S GONNA WIN!!!!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rennert, sunbro, itskevin

    HE WAS JUST ENDORSED BY TIM PAWLENTY!!!

    THIS IS BIG PEOPLE!!!!

    HE'S UNSTOPPABLE NOW!!!!

    NOW HE'S GOT ALL OF PAWLENTY'S VOTERS BEHIND HIM!!!

    oh wait

    nevermind

    PLEASE donate to a global children's PEACE project: Chalk 4 Peace

    by RumsfeldResign on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:45:04 AM PDT

  •  The time for dirty tricks is nearing. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, sunbro

    These are Republicans.
    I can't imagine that the swift boaters and the welfare queens are going to take all of this sitting down.

    All of the power players who have a horse to back will start with the nastiness eventually.

    Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. - Poor Richard's Almanac 1755
    The government exists to protect us from the thugs who got rich ripping off our ancestors. - Mungley 2011

    by mungley on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 08:56:34 AM PDT

  •  bounce off? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    seaprog

    not really. Perry's rise seems to be stopped and it helps Romney

  •  Then why is Perry softening his views on it? (0+ / 0-)

    How The Doctor does redistricting: 'I'm going to need a SWAT team ready to mobilize, street-level maps covering all of Florida, a pot of coffee, twelve jammie dodgers and a fez.'

    by KingofSpades on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 09:21:12 AM PDT

    •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

      This poll took place in the days immediately following the debate. Only the plugged in people would reflect change for those polls.

      The thing to realize is that the SS moment in the debate fundamentally changed the contours of the campaign because both campaigns think it did.  That's all you need to know. In the coming months, the race will crystalize along fault lines that will define it through next spring. Attack ads will be rolled out on this issue, surrogates will use it as a wedge. Sides will be chosen on it.

      That process has barely started.  Let this play out, check back in 3-4 months before we determine that the SS issue has no effect on or helps Perry.

  •  The Tea's Boiling (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    Why be surprised? The GOP has been captured lock, stock, and barrel by the boiling Tea Party. It's the standard line among them that Social Security is a "Ponzi scheme." Look at Wis. TP- backed Sen. Johnson, or presidential boycotter and TP Caucus member Cong. Joe Walsh. He also is a member of the "Ponzi scheme" Soc. Security club. As long as Obama doesn't yield on his Jobs for America Act and calls it pure politics blocking him, he will look strong and can take on W "to the 10th  power Perry." For more on Rick "W" Perry and Joe "TP" Walsh, read   this    

  •  Proof of intelligence in the cosmos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    My partner, a Republican for thirty years has finally jumped the shark. Although he voted for Clinton, Gore and Obama, he still claimed he was a Republican. He kept waiting for his Party to come to its collective senses.

    We had a discussion the other day in which he said he was no longer a Republican. He couldn't be a Dem (he kind of shuddered at this possible identification, but indoctrination is still strong, so I gave him a pass) so I said no, soothingly, you're an Independent. He was okay with that.

    Perry's record in Texas is not going to get a free pass in the general. The media liked GW, Perry on the other hand, does not have good relations with the press. Too, although the press may be fiscally conservative, they are not all social conservatives and Perry's Godspeak is going to freak them out a little.

    Look, we can panic about Perry, buy my feeling is that if Americans are so stupid they would vote for Perrry in the General, then the whole country has jumped the shark and I don't want to live here, anyway.

    "The white race is the domineering race, which is why I'm voting for McClain." Anonymous voter on NPR

    by txdemfem on Mon Sep 12, 2011 at 10:41:45 AM PDT

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