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So a funny thing happened in Rick Perry's march to the White House. It turns out that voters don't exactly appreciate what he's saying about Social Security. From PPP:

Americans strongly disagree with the statements Rick Perry made about Social Security in last week's Republican Presidential debate, and Barack Obama has nearly doubled his lead over Perry nationally in the span of just 3 weeks.

Only 20% of voters agree with Perry that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme to 70% who dissent from that statement.  Democrats (4/87) and independents (20/69) are pretty universal in their disagreement with Perry and even Republicans (39/49) don't stand with him on this one. When it comes to the possibility of actually ending Social Security voters are even more unanimous- 82% oppose taking that step to only 10% who would be supportive of it.  If Perry ends up as the Republican nominee and Democrats can effectively convince the electorate that he does want to end Social Security it could be an extremely damaging issue for him.

Perhaps because of that, the assault on Perry from other Republicans continues. Last night we saw a bit of that from Mitt Romney (the pundit declared "winner" of last night's debate, and without insta-polls, how else would we know?) on SS and from Bachmann and Huntsman on HPV vaccines and immigration. No one seems to be afraid of taking Perry on, and unlike when he went after Kay Bailey Hutchison in Texas ("It Takes Balls To Execute An Innocent Man") people really seem to care about what Perry is saying this time around.

That would be something of a first for Perry to deal with, and so far, he hasn't proven he can. In any case, in PPP polling he trails Obama by 11, and on Intrade, he trails Romney 39.8-34.7 this afternoon.

Because of the tea party's influence on GOP politics, Perry remains formidable, but he's nothing like a lock or a sure thing. Romney remains more electable, and after last night, the ever more obvious choice of the Republican establishment (for some typical bad press coverage, see Dana Milbank). Perry's tough days are in fact more ahead of him than behind—and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:00 PM PDT.

Also republished by Social Security Defenders.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Perry to walk back Ponzi scheme (16+ / 0-)

    in 3....2....1.......

    Under Ike we had 91% marginal tax rates and nobody called him as Socialist. - Robert Reich

    by lastman on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:01:40 PM PDT

    •  It's a big Genie to stuff back in the bottle. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      beltane, crystalboy, GayHillbilly

      I guess a little flip-flopping never hurt a candidate. Right Mittens? Right, John Kerry?

      "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

      by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:01:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm betting we'll hear something along the lines (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PrahaPartizan

      of "it needs a lot of work. We need to begin a transition. Nothing will affect people right now." etc.

      In other words, he'll weasel out of it and Fox will report that Obama claims social security needs to be killed.

      "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

      by sgtlejeune on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:50:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why are we calling this a gaffe? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GayHillbilly

      He didn't misspeak, this is his position. It may be a political mistake, but it's not an error.

      My biggest concern about this upcoming election is the normalization of the crazy. Calling it a gaffe makes light of what is a very dangerous policy position. He wants to own it, let him.

      You can't teach an old dogma new tricks. Dorothy Parker

      by garbo on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 05:16:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He isn't the first to call it a Ponzi scheme (0+ / 0-)

      there is a long line of politicians and pundits who have used this description (even Krugman). They just weren't running for president.

  •  Hey Greg (10+ / 0-)

    I heard on a radio show that Perry would be an easy opponent for Obama but Romney could be tough.

    Is that what the polls are saying?

    •  ;-) actually (7+ / 0-)

      yes, they are

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:15:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Romney trails by 4; Perry, 11 (6+ / 0-)

      Snapshot of this point in time. Ask again tomorrow...

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

      by blue aardvark on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:18:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep, good thing Romney can't win in the south (5+ / 0-)

      I would much rather Obama run against Perry than Romney.

      Looking at the primaries, I don't see a path for Romney after New Hampshire.  He'll consistently come in 2nd as the primaries move south, and maybe even a few 3rds.  He's trying to hang on until the primaries move north again, but I doubt he can.

      We'll end up with a Perry/Romney ticket which balances the Tea Partiers with the country clubers.  Given the deepness of the depression on election day, It'll be very, very, very hard for Obama.

      •  Yeah, that's what I've been thinking. (4+ / 0-)

        If not Perry/Romney it'll be Perry/Some Other Northern Country Club Repub with Ties to Wall Street.

        Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

        by Bush Bites on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:26:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see a path for Romney either (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollwatcher

        And more so considering he has been running for 5 years and seems more awkward and out of place by the day. The teabagger influence just makes him look like the odd man out. The geeky kid that doesn't belong at prom.

        "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

        by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:10:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I thought that once (Romney couldn't win FL). (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollwatcher

        Now I hear from family members in FL (most are Democrats, however, they are conservative ones) that he's really in trouble over the SS debacle (not only the position, but the sub-literate explanation of it).

        I really think Perry is imploding. I disagree now that Perry will win, and I disagree if he does, that he'll pick Romney.

        If Perry does win, someone like Rubio or P. Ryan would provide everything that Romney does, plus they're from swing states, plus they  aren't Mormon (I don't agree w/ the discrimination, obviously, but it seems to be real w/ some Christian conservatives, and Perry is ruthless enough to realize that).

        The  President was always the favorite as an incumbent, but now I think he's moved to a firm favorite. Romney/Rubio would be a hell of a ticket...but I'm not sure Rubio would accept. If it's Ryan, it brings up the whole Medicare thing.

        Not only that, but in these swing states (WI, OH, FL, MI) they've got these unpopular governors. If you're a fan of the President this was a good week.

        Look, if I were a genius at this, I'd be in DC making six figures, obviously, but I think I've got decent instincts. I think the President's chances went from about 50/50 to about 55/45 (his favor) this week.

        For all his weaknesses as a political strategist, the President also has two truly great strengths as a campaigner.

        1) His oratory skills wear thin as President. As a candidate, they'll enthrall again.

        2) He is very, very, very patient. It's a very underestimated strategic quality. He'll wait for his opponent to make a mistake. His fans get pissed waiting, but if it's Perry, can anyone doubt (now) that Perry will make a mistake?

        The problem for Pres Obama is Gov Romney is also patient. If it's Romney, I really think it comes down to the  Vice-Pres. If he can unite the R base w/ it. He chooses wrong, he's probably toast.

        Perry already seems like Texas Toast. It's going to get to the point where they serve him w/ syrup and a side of bacon if it continues like this. I just don't see him winning  purple or light blue states now.

        Maybe when he busted a cap in that coyote's crown, and his poll numbers actually went up, he thought the whole US was Texas. Maybe I did too. Things can and will change, but as of right now: I'd say we were both wrong.

        District: Red-light...

        by trickamsterdam on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:49:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nice analysis, but then there's the depression (0+ / 0-)

          As long as we're in this depression, and I expect it to get worse rather than better, it's going to be really hard for Obama to say the other guy is much worse than I am.  It certainly didn't work in 2010 and it looks like it's not working in NY today.

          •  I would hate to bet against a Perry (0+ / 0-)

            candidacy.  For him to be that close (the Repub. nominee), and with the economy in the crapper, I have little faith in the broader electorate.  

            Perry wants this B A D and has the means and motivation and connections to try to make it happen.  

            He will pander to the stupid of the electorate, and will do the bidding of the money and power brokers.  Their only concern may be if he'll STAY bought, but that's just arguing over the price, now isn't it?

            "I'm offended that you think I can be bought for $5,000!".  OK, Rick, what IS yer price?

            Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

            by tom 47 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 at 06:53:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree with that. I think Romney would be (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Armando, Sherri in TX, Caelian

      easier for Obama. Why? Romney can't get up the enthusiasm he needs from his tea party base to get out to the polls. Perry's dangerous for that reason that he can do so.

      I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

      by slinkerwink on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:24:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Teabaggers will vote for him anyway (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Armando

        It's the moderates... moderates would probably choose "moderate-sounding", faux-business-experience Romney more than they would Perry.

        15 years old and a proud progressive and Phillies phan.

        by vidanto on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:27:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you're right (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Armando, Sherri in TX, crystalboy

        except Perry also can (as he is demonstrating) lose the center right even as the hard rigth falls in love.

        as I noted, he's still formidable and the part opeople (you excepted) don't get is how good a retail level campaigner he is. One of the best.

        But on policy? In a debate with the big boys? He can be beat.

        OTOH, as you correctly point out of Romney beats Perry, there's a price to pay with the tea party. Mitt will never be their man, heart and soul.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:30:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Will be interesting to see a GOP primary (7+ / 0-)

    poll post-debate to really confirm the slip. If he has fallen behind Romney, then he is in big trouble.

  •  Heh, heh, thanks, Greg! (5+ / 0-)

    So very glad to hear this.  What a pleasure to read that Perry is slipping.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:03:52 PM PDT

  •  My GOP Mother Gave Me An Earfull About Perry (19+ / 0-)

    After getting years of denial from her about the GOP's plans for Social Security, the penny finally dropped.

    But I also pointed out that Romney is being devious on this point since he wants to let younger people opt out. Mom was very clear that those are in fact the people that pay her benefits, and Romney's plan to "save" Social Security destroys it.

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:04:51 PM PDT

  •  Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are defending (9+ / 0-)

    hard Perry on Social Security and on HPV vaccine today.

    I think Perry is still going to be the nominee ....;)

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:04:59 PM PDT

  •  Careful, we don't want Perry (7+ / 0-)

    to lose support YET. I want him to make it through the primaries and win the nomination.

    I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

    by rennert on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:06:13 PM PDT

  •  Ponzi scheme vs. unconstitutional. They seem to (10+ / 0-)

    be trying to wiggle out of the Ponzi scheme thing.  IMHO though, unconstitutional is even more damaging.  Does that mean that someone (under a Perry presidency) should contest the constitutionality of social security (and medicare and medicaid) at the Supreme Court?  A Supreme Court with another radical judge, thanks to Rick Perry?  That is a slippery slope that I think most people can understand.

    Got Social Security? Thank a Democrat!

    by Fury on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:06:49 PM PDT

    •  The Dems (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fury, crystalboy

      should take note of that. Perry's 'unconstitutional' quote might be used against him even more effectively than the 'Ponzi Scheme'.

      To be well adjusted to an insane society is obviously not a sign of sanity. J. Krishnamurti

      by lejaz on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:46:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Soc Sec is a Ponzi scheme with Perrynomics (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fury, crystalboy

      Social Security is viable only if you assume people earning money now are making enough so that their Soc Sec payments cover retirees' benefits.

      Perry wants to drive down median wages to poverty level, which would in fact make modern Social Security not viable.  People should be driving home the point that when Perry says "jobs" he means sub-minimum-wage jobs.

      Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
      Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

      by Caelian on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:14:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not Gaffes (21+ / 0-)
    Rick Perry loses support because of Social Security gaffes

    Should be..

    Rick Perry loses support because his extreme anti-Social Security ideology is incompatible with American values
  •  None of the Republicans will stand... (4+ / 0-)

    ...up to close scrutiny.

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:07:52 PM PDT

  •  He's still in his comfort zone for now (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mdmslle, vidanto

    If he gets the nomination wait until he takes his radical, extremist message to middle America.

  •  Odd that folks aren't (7+ / 0-)

    worried about his rapture roots -- which would really eff up SS.  So many Xians lifted out of their cars and brothels -- so few non-believers left behind to pay for the . . . . oh, wait, most of us won't mind.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:10:36 PM PDT

    •  If You Take Them Seriously They May Get Violent (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kimball Cross, crystalboy

      You're just supposed to let them yell their gibberish without asking followup questions.

      They have their own rigid code of political correctness that encompasses everything, and asking questions proves that you hate baby Jesus.

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:17:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Rapture would eliminate a disproportionately (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amber6541, The Nose, Clarknt67

      older population so therefore would benefit the longevity of the SS trust fund.

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

      by blue aardvark on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:21:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  144K worldwide (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crystalboy

      Coulda happened yesterday, nobody would have noticed.

      Once ya figure that most Raptured won't be US residents, and of those that are, maybe half tops would be in the workforce... I dunno, I get maybe 10K who actually would be missing from tax rolls.

      Honestly, I don't see how the Rapture could affect our economy more than a really riveting Monday Night Football.

      Bargain at the cost.

    •  You just inspired me. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caelian

      Wouldn't that be a funny premise for a movie? A comedy set in post-rapture America where the heathens try to get the ball rolling again after 90% of the population is raptured? Sounds like a good project for Kevin Smith.

      "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

      by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:18:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe there is hope for the country yet! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    We have a generation of leaders – Merkel, Sarkozy, Obama, Cameron – who don't seem to have the faintest idea of what they're doing. Politics is now nothing more than people saying hopeful things with their fingers crossed... - David Hare

    by glitterscale on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:14:13 PM PDT

  •  Underestimate Rick Perry at own peril (8+ / 0-)

    This man is dangerous.  He is an excellent politician who can come back from the dead.  He has the teabaggers, Rush Limbaugh and very likely the Koch boys in his back pocket.   His campaign people are very disciplined and so he is he.

    A couple of weeks ago a poll showed if the election were held in Texas at the time Obama would have been 47 and Perry 45.   That is how popular Perry is in his own state right now.

    •  what does that even mean? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amber6541, LaurenMonica, Kinak, The Nose

      "Underestimate Rick Perry at own peril "

      Don't under or overestimate him. Gauge him for who he realy is and where he really stands.

      He is still the frontrunner and as I noted he remains formidable. But he don't got the Big Mo right now that he was expecting to. In fact, he is very much on the defensive, even on the right.

      Hey, even Sister Sarah is picking on him.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:20:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Libby's right. She's a fellow Texan. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caelian, Libby Shaw, crystalboy

        And has been blogging on Perry for years.

        I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

        by slinkerwink on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:26:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nonetheless (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bush Bites

          the question stands. Who is actually underestimating him and in what way? He's the frontrunner, after all. and see my reply to you above.

          This may well be a win win for dems since a Romney win comes with less enthusiasm and a Perry win can only happen after a bruising fight over SS that hurts him in the general.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:33:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As another Texan, after 10 years of Perry, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DemFromCT

            I second what Libby said.

            Inscrupulous, conniving, heart (and soul) less, power=-hungry.  With the means and motivation to win this thing.

            With respect, many non-Texans who wouldn't vote for him, and many who might, don't fully appreciate his nastiness.  Of those who might vote for him, or at least consider him, they may be able to be persuaded.  The result would be WAY worse than W.  By comparison, W had scruples.

            Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

            by tom 47 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 at 07:03:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I appreciate that (0+ / 0-)

              as a non Texan that's my view of him. So in what way is he being misunderestimated?

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Wed Sep 14, 2011 at 08:00:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Besides... (0+ / 0-)

        I think we flatter ourselves to think our pinko, socialist, homo, commie estimations--either over or under--of any of these candidates make a hill of beans of difference to the nutjobs that will be voting in GOP primaries. They listen to Rush, Beck, Fox News, etc. Not DKos.

        Which is not to say it's not a good time to assemble a war chest of opposition info and talk to general election voters about how crazy and unacceptable they all are.

        "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

        by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:25:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ;-) (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caelian, Clarknt67

          still, we are perfectly capable of analyzing the other side's political position.  For example:

          Interestingly, Rick Perry took it on the chin last night, and more from the right on vaccine policy and immigration than the left on Social Security (where he is certainly vulnerable.) Still, debates won’t decide who will be the nominee, but as many analysts have noted, whether Perry emerges despite his policy flaws or whether Romney emerges despite tea party un-enthusiasm, the eventual nominee will be outside the mainstream of the American voter, running against Social Security and cheering on the execution of innocent people or those who die without health care. I don’t expect that to change; the tea party is immune to reality.

          My sense at this point is that Romney will be the stronger candidate but Perry is still ahead. But forget a coronation; Perry’s tough days lie ahead, not behind.

          http://www.politico.com/...

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:44:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's popular? (0+ / 0-)

      Losing to the Muslim Kenyan Socialist Usurper in his own state?  We should hold rallies for that shit-kicker nincompoop.

      Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

      by Tuffie on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:29:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The first part of your comment doesnt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sherri in TX

      seem to fit with the second.

      He's dangerous because he is doing poorly in Texas?

      I agree though, we should underestimate him.  

    •  He doesn't look to have the charm of a Reagan (0+ / 0-)

      or a George Bush and heaven knows he's not as smart as W.

      He got D's at A&M and Bush got C's at Yale.

      Big difference.

      George Bush looked good in a suit.  Rick Perry looks like he trying to squeeze his shoulders out of a suit.

      He is a nasty little man and he will make a real "gaffe" that will cost him.   He is not smart enough to do a "there you go again moment and get away with it".

      As Winston Churchill said, "If you are going to get in a battle of wits, come armed."  Perry thinks only of a 45 (IQ or caliber).

      "Don't dream it, be it" - Brad, Janet and Frank

      by captainlaser on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:44:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't trust voters (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        crystalboy

        If the majority of voters were stupid enough to vote for W. twice, or stay at home and not vote at all,  as our party did in 2010, why would I not think a Perry win is possible?  

        There are no limits on contributions to political candidates in Texas.  And this is precisely why Rick Perry has managed to win election after election.

        And now with the SCOTUS Citizen's United decision we will see money flow to Slick Perry just as it has in Texas.  Rick Perry will reward them with a prestigious job, a tax cut or grant. A lobbyist needs to pony up nearly $30K just to have a conversation with our governor, by the way.

        Voters will see the same pay to play crony capitalism in Washington D.C. if Perry should get there.  And as in the case of W. they will have voters remorse.

        After it is too late.

  •  Romney remains more electable... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jj32

    until people do the math.  He's embraced Cut, Cap, Balance and cutting taxes.  What happens to Social Security to make that work?  I mean, appreciate you not using the words "ponzi scheme" and all...

  •  I think Perry can salvage it. Not sure how (6+ / 0-)

    because I'm not a bagger, but if he gets in front of it, he can still assuage the panic mostly because the GOP electorate really WANTS to believe him. They really don't want Romney. They are going to be more inclined to believe Perry IF he can get in front of it and spin it right. In fact, I think he might be able to play it "humble" and everyone kiss and make up:

    "Look, my own mama is on social security. Now, maybe I was shooting off at the mouth when I said that word. And my mama always warned me, she said, 'Rick, [insert endearding southern saying here]'. Truth is, I want everybody to be able to have security in their old age.....blah blah blah"

    The self-depricating, aw shucks, walk-back would work here. throw in a little Jesus and he's golden.

    It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

    by mdmslle on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:15:51 PM PDT

    •  What you said... and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle

      There's way too much time to recover before January.  IMO he'll recover from this, The RW media is finding lot's of quotes and video going back decades where Dems and Pundits said similar things in similar language.

      Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

      by EdMass on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:19:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  maybe so (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle, Sherri in TX

      but that will only hurt him more in the general... all the infighting and pull to the R will do so for whoever the GOP nominee is.

      The rules have not changed. General elections take place at the center, primaries at the margins.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:26:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You've lost me (0+ / 0-)

        After Perry spinning his SS stance for for the coming year up to and through the primaries, how does this become a DEM advantage in the general?  

        We still have to get past the implications of the Grand Bargain and whatever the frig comes out of the Gang of 12 or doesn't then triggering auto cuts to SS and Medicare.

        Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

        by EdMass on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:41:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  how does it not become a Dem advantage? (0+ / 0-)

          Perry thinks SS is unconstitutional and a Ponzi scheme, and the public disagrees (see main post). That's a world away from what Obama is discussing about medicare (not SS.)

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:49:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because he has already started walking it back (0+ / 0-)

            to a more acceptable general position and has a year to do it?  

            By the general won't both sides be at a "some form of reform is good for the future" position?  Both sides have baggage on this already.

            I just not seeing this as the killer argument in the general.  Been wrong before :-)

            Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

            by EdMass on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:02:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  indeed. I want him damaged because of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        crystalboy

        his gop primary win. I want an gop primary winner to have pulled so far to the right, that they are practically unelectable afterward.

        It's the difference between losing a fight and refusing one. (h/t Kossack james richardson)

        by mdmslle on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:42:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, I think his advantage over Romney (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle

      is he is much more comfortable on the campaign trail. If he does well in those campaign settings, and runs some good ads, then I think he could win.

    •  Good one (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mdmslle

      Not likely he'll be reading this or he would no doubt steal that 'my own mama...' good ol' boy schtick.

      To be well adjusted to an insane society is obviously not a sign of sanity. J. Krishnamurti

      by lejaz on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:57:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, the dilemma of the modern Republican (8+ / 0-)

    Perry "wrote" a book designed for sale to conservative book club members, feeding them all the red meat they could desire, and now that book is being quoted as though he actually meant what his ghostwriter said. The idea was just to cash in a la Gingrich, not to make a contribution to American political thought.

    And he can't just deny "his" book without angering the sorts of people whose opinions are similar to those who join conservative book clubs. That sort of person weighs in heavily in GOP primaries.

    For what does it profit a man if he gain wingnut royalties and lose the general election?

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:18:24 PM PDT

  •  I'll be shocked if Perry loses this. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaurenMonica, Kimball Cross

    But, I guess, it could happen.

    Not only is he gaffing all over the place, but he seems to have lit a fire under the Mittbot.

    Ideology is an excuse to ignore common sense.

    by Bush Bites on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:20:33 PM PDT

  •  Good. :-) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT

    I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

    by slinkerwink on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:24:00 PM PDT

  •  Good news ...this... excellent news...nt (0+ / 0-)

    GOP = Grossly Ostentatiously Preposterous

    by Poetic Mind on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:24:43 PM PDT

  •  We should root for Perry (0+ / 0-)

    Romney is trouble ... he can convince the millions of dopes in this country that he gives a shit about them, plus yammer about 'businessman' and all that nonsense.  

    Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

    by Tuffie on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:25:35 PM PDT

  •  hmmm. could be. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dehrha02

    Richard Adams in the Guardian has a good insight:

    Politico's Ben Smith reports that Karl Rove thinks this will be a long, drawn-out primary:

    [Rove] anticipates a dragged out Republican primary, depending on "one or two" more candidates getting in, an apparent reference to Sarah Palin and perhaps Chris Christie.

    "We could have a long extended contest that could be as good for the Republicans" as 2008 was for Democrats. In Iowa, Perry "does not have an insurmountable lead, particularly in a state where organization matters a lot."

    Given Karl Rove's track record of late, that probably means there will be a Republican nominee once polls close in New Hampshire.

    "Every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible." - Janet Malcolm

    by slangist on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:29:04 PM PDT

    •  Rove is letting his (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kimball Cross, DemFromCT

      hatred for Perry cloud his prognostication skills (which, as we recall from 2006, can be shaky in the best of times). I'm not saying it's impossible that Republicans will have a drawn out primary. But like I say with all things predicted to go against form, "I'll believe it when I see it."

      With every goddess a let down, every idol a bring down, it gets you down / but the search for perfection, your own predilection, goes on and on and on. . .

      by cardinal on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:34:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  just saw something about this (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kimball Cross, cardinal

        in the 'financial times' the other day, john kay remarked,

        "When the data seem to point to an unexpected finding, always consider the possibility that the problem is a feature of the data, rather than a feature of the world."

        "Every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible." - Janet Malcolm

        by slangist on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:50:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh f@ck....... (0+ / 0-)

      .....Rove is at "teh Math" again.

      I'm poopin my pants now.

      "I Welcome Their Hatred." - FDR

      by dehrha02 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:53:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "as good for GOP as 2008 was for Dems" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caelian, crystalboy

      except that Dems didn't debate crazy shit like whether Social Security was a ponzi scheme, evolution is a fraud, vaccines are tyranny, black people were happier under slavery, the virtue of letting the unisured die, and who sent the most people to the electric chair.

      I mean, if Rove sees win for the GOP to carry this conversation on as long as possible, what do I know? I am not a "genius" like him.

      "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

      by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:36:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hope this keeps up (0+ / 0-)

    “If you think I can be bought for five thousand dollars, I'm offended." Rick Perry. It takes a helleuva lot more.

    by Paleo on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:33:05 PM PDT

  •  the real beauty of all of this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kimball Cross, Clarknt67

    ...is that the primary schedule would tend to favor Perry more and Romney...with Romney likely to skip the Iowa caucuses (or at least put very little into it in order to be able to try to "write off" the results), followed by New Hampshire, whereby, even if Romney wins it will not be considered any kind of a big deal since it's considered his virtual "home turf," being located right next to the state he governed. Then comes South Carolina followed by a lot of other Southern states, all of which are likely to be much more receptive to Perry's out-of-the-mainstream brand of radical, right wing extremism than that of Romney's brand of conservatism.

    So...basically...the odds seem stacked in favor of a Tea Party candidate like Perry...how sweet...

  •  It's fun to watch (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crystalboy

    the not totally insane faction of the GOP taking hits from the nutjobs. let's hope some of those punches leave marks.

    GOP is pretty talented at falling in line when the game whistle blows though.

    "A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead 

    by Scott Wooledge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 02:59:17 PM PDT

  •  Perry will simply backpedal & all will be forgiven (0+ / 0-)
  •  Dana Millbank is not an example of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ukit

    the Republican establishment. Thats ridiculous.

    Examples of the Republican establishment attacking Perry are DrudgeReport, Fox News, the Bush's, Karl Rove, Mike Murphy, Scarborough, Ann Coulter......

    They all are for Mitt Romney, they don't think Perry can beat Obama in the general election. They feel pretty confident that Romney will.

    Limbaugh and Hannity are staying on the fence even though its obvious that Romney isn't a real conservative and is a flip flopper. They know he may be the nominee though so theyre avoiding taking sides.

    Michelle Bachmann and Santorum I think are also doing the bidding of the republican establishment. They know they cant win the nomination but they could be the vp for Romney. They also are insiders, theyre doing whats best for the party.

    •  didn't say he was 9and you're right he;s not) (0+ / 0-)

      said it was an example of bad press.

      The front-runner has no clothes

      The establishment examples are everyone on the R side who gave the win to Romney, more bad press for Perry.

      Perry needs to hit the books

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:55:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Perry is formidable (0+ / 0-)

    it is obvious from watching the debates that regardless of his positions, personality and record....politically he is well prepared and slick.

    Should he get the nomination and distance himself from his quacky calls to freedom to get the tebagger vote, he just might find a sell for independent, especially low info independent voters....which could be horrifying if there is voter apathy in Obama's once vibrant base.

    At this point, Perry would be a worse nominee because he will get the enthusiasm of the evengelicals whereas Mitt probably will not. So if he gets the nom he will have to do something incredibly stupid like McCain did such as pick Bachmann as his VP.

    Perry's value is he will not be wanting such stupidity as McCain's and will have direct appeal to the nutjob wing of the nutjob party.

    I have no doubt that he is capable of beating Obama in a general election.  Once everything lined up behind him, he could be very difficult indeed.

  •  Parry is the "pundit flavor of the day" (0+ / 0-)

    So was Bachmann in her time.

    So was Mittens in his time.

    Even Cain and Huntsman got a "new guy" bounce when they announced.

    Still, Mittens can. not. win.  There is no path to nomination for him, much less the general election.

    Repeat after me:

    1) He has a Massachusetts problem.
    2) He has a Mormon problem.

    Parry will be the nominee.  It won't be a pretty process, but he'll be the nominee.

    Tea Party manifesto: We're resigned to our collective fate because we don't want no stinkin' collective future with the likes of you

    by Richard Cranium on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:34:19 PM PDT

  •  So here is my question to Perry and Romney (0+ / 0-)
    I just saw Contagion and I'm pretty scared (No, I won't shake your hand).  If you become President, where will you get your information on stopping a pandemic after you have closed down the CDC?

    "Don't dream it, be it" - Brad, Janet and Frank

    by captainlaser on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:37:40 PM PDT

  •  Thus confirming the wisdom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crystalboy

    of my decision to leave the state of Texas and never return.  As a group, Texas voters are more gullible, more superficial, and less compassionate than those of pretty much any state in the Union. I'm not trying to paint every Texan with that brush, but let's face it:  W and now Perry are pretty strong arguments against an intelligent electorate.

    Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

    by Simian on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 03:59:28 PM PDT

  •  and so does Obama (0+ / 0-)

    how stupid can anyone be to vote for a Democrat who not only promises to cut back on Social Security and Medicare, but has already tried it?

    google: what is a Kossack?

  •  I'm hoping to see Bachmann resurge (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crystalboy

    I heard some snippets from last night's debate on the radio this morning and I'm hopeful that Michelle Bachmann will get back some of the support she lost to Perry.

    I think Bachmann lost a lot of support to Perry because he has more or less the same loony Teabagger positions but has the advantage of being a man so Teabaggers don't have to compromise on suppressing women's rights.  However, in the debate she scored some good points, including the Merck HPV connection.  I'd like to see the Teabagger vote split so that the GOP nomination is as messy as possible, producing plenty of material for Dem adverts.

    Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
    Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

    by Caelian on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 04:37:50 PM PDT

  •  A couple of speculations............. (0+ / 0-)

    have come to my mind. The first is that Mittens will not drop out of the race due to some losses in southern primaries.  He had been running for POTUS for…ev…….er……AND he is apparently backed by the rethug establishment.  Numerically the southern states, even if Perry were to carry them all, can not produce enough delegates to wrap up the nomination. Mittens will be in it unless he loses badly in a number of states OUTSIDE the south or the delegate count becomes untenable (which can only occur with more states counted.)

    The second is that MAYBE, just maybe, the “powers that be” among the Rethugs don’t want a clear winner coming out of the primaries. Run a bunch of crazies on the right throughout the primary season to keep the Teahadists fired up and, at the same time,  prop up mittens to the middle.  Then in a brokered convention they can slip in someone who isn’t a Mormon or who doesn’t have to run away from the right wing rhetoric in the general.  

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

    by cazcee on Tue Sep 13, 2011 at 06:10:44 PM PDT

  •  So What? (0+ / 0-)

    Eventually the Republican primary will end.  Then what?  Right now Perry's dancing to the Tea Baggers tune.  So he wins the primary.  Then what?

    He'll never be able to walk it all back & win the General.  Never.  Not ever.  The Republican establishment doesn't want him.  Karl Rove & his American Crossroads donors don't want Perry.  Rove's nursing a grudge against Perry.   Expect the dirty.  

    I got a call from Washington DC at 8 pm tonight my time.....ll pm there.  They're working the phones at ll pm.  It was all about the American Jobs Act.  Obama is hitting it hard.  I just made my first campaign contribution to Obama.

    Never underestimate the Democratic base.  We're paying attention to the Republican debates.  I like the odds.

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