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Sorry to interrupt the chorous of folks patting themselves on the back and relieved that all the "troublemakers" have been banished from the kingdom, but has anybody stopped to consider the price that has been paid for all this "harmony"?

It would seem that folks are content to operate in an alternate reality where the way you can tell if things are going well, is if most folks agree with you and you are rarely challenged on your assumptions/perceptions. I cannot really think of a more anti-Democratic idea than that.

Is it really revolutionary that folks from similar backgrounds with similar viewpoints would be able to agree with one another on a blog?

Somehow, I don't think it is.

Also, I find it quite ironic how many folks express that they "can't understand" why anyone would want to boycott Daily Kos. Isn't that the point though? There are large numbers of posters here who "can't understand" how the things they say are received by folks who are different from themselves. . . so the easy way out is to just pretend that everything outside of your experience or understanding is largely irrelevant.

Not too long ago, I posted a diary that attempted to share what I thought was a unique perspective on President Obama's leadership style through a Civil Rights Movement prism.

http://www.dailykos.com/...

Although I have not been contributing to Daily Kos at the level I initially did for a long time now, the things that were written (and recommended) in the comment section of that diary really blew my mind. I mean, I couldn't even read it all . . . mountains and mountains of racially insensitive, condescending, bile.

This prompted me to write another diary . . . in an attempt to escape the super crowded comment section and address several posters at once . . . that produced quite the HR party.

http://www.dailykos.com/...

And I followed that diary up with two more over the next two days:

http://www.dailykos.com/...

and this

http://www.dailykos.com/...

I bring this all up, not to re-litigate the issues in those diaries or toot my own horn. I bring this up to point out that this is my real world experience in the not so distant past right here at Daily Kos.

Now if that is my experience, as a frequent reader, infrequent poster, I can only imagine what the folks who are trying to diary and interact here daily are dealing with.

Daily Kos is a big place. You can miss a lot of stuff if you aren't looking for it. Apparently, a lot of folks missed the racial tension that has been brewing here until it has now exploded in their laps.

But now that it has exploded, let's not pretend not to notice. Let's demonstrate that we can get over our collective selves and deal with it. Honestly. Openly. And not with a sneer and smug assurance that we are right because we are surrounded by folks who echo our feelings on the matter.

That would be a big missed opportunity in this black woman's opinion. Many of those who are boycotting are those who actually care about Daily Kos as a community and want to continue to be a part of it. I confess, I am not so entrenched and can take it or leave it. But I did want to offer up at least an attempt to shine a little light on how things look from boycottville.

(Please save the snarky "Are you boycotting or not?" stuff. Thanks.)

EDITED TO ADD: Must step away for a bit . . . I will check back later.

UPDATE: Since many are taking a very LITERAL interpretation of the word "echo chamber", I wanted to add this from one of my comments below:

". . . I am saying that basically, the "peace" that has been created at Daily Kos on the issue of race  is similar to the "peace" that they had at segregated schools . . . the "peace" that folks want from dealing with homosexuality . . . because it makes them "uncomfortable" . . . the "peace" that the majority feels when nobody is around to challenge their assumptions . . . sometimes "peace" is not the most noble goal.

There is a "racial" echo chamber, where all nuance is missed in an attempt to restore "comfort"."

Now I must leave again . . . . I'll check back.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The purge is not about ideology (9+ / 0-)

    it is about method.  

    •  This diary is not about idealogy either. nt (0+ / 0-)
      •  no it isn't (11+ / 0-)

        it's about backing bullies to the hilt.

        I am sorry, but that diary you link to is a great example of the kind of vitriolic bullying, distortion, and smearing that has been absent in the last week.

        I am afraid that one consequence of the purge has been that I have been looking at the comments and HRs of some of the banned people and some who are now absent, and I have come to the conclusion that a tremendous amount of the vitriol that had characterized this site did come from those now missing.  People still disagree here, but now the discussions of the same topics and ideas are considerably more civil and adult.  Count me among those for whom black kos has taken a massive hit in terms of my opinion and estimation of their credibility.

        If there is more uniformity, it isn't in view point, it is in the commitment to a civil discourse.

        Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

        by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 02:39:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I know... (16+ / 0-)

      I think the diarist is mistaking normal political debate with an echo chamber.

      you are rarely challenged on your assumptions/perceptions.

      I am still challenged on many comments every day BUT the difference is about 90% of the insults have been cut out of the loop...

      And, to be fair to those that are gone - some of whom were involved in completely different pie fights - a good part of that started before people walked out.

      Many people started to be a little more polite - or, at least, a lot less "dickish" - from the second kos said he would be the new mod.

      ePluribus Media
      Collaboration is contagious!

      by m16eib on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:16:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, it seems most folks agree with you . . . (0+ / 0-)

        so you must be right! :o)

        •  yes (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ohmyheck, skayne, IndieGuy, m16eib

          On consequence of this is that we have noticed the drop in insults, all the way acros the political viewshed.

          If by political diversity you mean we need to have a diverssity of people committed to civility and people completely opposed to it, no, I don't think that we need taht, no

          Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

          by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 02:41:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Just look at how many people in this diary... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skayne

          ... and are disagreeing with you without going all crazy.

          A few weeks ago? Somebody probably would have gone nuts in here.

          Kind of refutes the premise of your diary right there.

          ePluribus Media
          Collaboration is contagious!

          by m16eib on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 11:40:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I call your attention to the untrue comment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nashville fan

            just below in which it is asserted that Nf quoted Andrew Sullivan in her first diary. I suppose that comment is just a mistake, the product of careless reading, and Nf corrected its author immediately in a response. Nevertheless four kossacks rec'd the misstatement (and none rec'd the response). And after I pointed out the absurdity of rec'ing something totally untrue, three more people rec'd it (and none the correction).

            That's what happens in an echo-chamber.

            Kind of refutes the premise of your comment right there.

            Am I right, or am I right? - The Singing Detective

            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 06:07:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  There was a poll (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nashville fan

          ... in C&J the other day.  Boycotting, you likely missed it.  There was a poll about the President, giving a letter grade.  There was the most votes for a "B" grade.  Overall results:

          A - 763
          B - 1823
          C - 831
          D - 294
          F - 189
          No opinion - 117

          Keeping in mind that anyone can vote in these polls, without even logging on, that result shows overall favorable support of Obama.  It's a bit of an error to conflate a handful of troublemakers with calling the whole site an "echo chamber."

          I'm gonna be interested to see how Armando's approach announced for his new group will fly.  I like his intent, at least.  One of his guiding rules being:  Don't knee-jerk assume the worst of others, and act according to that.

          The river always wins. -- Mark Twain

          by Land of Enchantment on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 11:22:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Promoting civility of discourse ... (22+ / 0-)

    ... is an important goal for this site

    Time outs (and groundings) for childish incivility does not repress people's ability to discuss things like adults.  Robust debate need not descend to bullying, name-calling, trolling opponent's diaries, highjacking discussions, dredging up old faults repeatedly, etc.  Those practices are best abandoned.  And if some users can't live without the freedom to use these particular tactics, then they should find some other site to oppress.

  •  I don't think anyone wants this place to (34+ / 0-)

    operate as an echo chamber, and I'm very sure that nobody wants to exclude minority and/or black and/or female voices from Daily Kos. The question is how best to facilitate the most productive kind of discussion, and part of that has to involve establishing parameters for what is or is not acceptable behavior, and then enforcing them.

    I get the feeling that a consensus is developing that more minority voices will step into the void created by the bannings and boycotts, and that they will do so within an environment that is a lot more conducive to fruitful discussions of the issues.

  •  Let me put this politely. The reason you (22+ / 0-)

    got so many negative comments to that diary was because you basically accused white progressives of thinking President Obama is weak because of his race. You put a racial impratur on the President's weak confrontations with the Republicans, and mischaracterized progressive critics' opposition to the bad negotiating as having racial intent behind it.

    I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

    by slinkerwink on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 11:54:34 AM PDT

  •  Hmm (19+ / 0-)

    I could have sworn i've seen disagreement on this site in the past three or four days.

    Perhaps it's all simply much more politely done.  Hmm.

  •  In the not so distand future? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nashville fan

    Don't you mean not so distant past?

    "Fighting for us, good. Winning, better. Talking about fighting? Not so good."--Atrios

    by andrewj54 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:00:38 PM PDT

  •  two things: (15+ / 0-)

    1) You get to define which reality is real and which is the alternate?

    2) I'm not seeing a great reduction in critical diaries and discussion. I am seeing a great reduction in disruptive and emotionally manipulative diaries and discussion.

    This has been the meat of the matter all along, but too many people wish to willfully deny that part.

    That being said, you're right to acknowledge the danger you cited. The line between disruption and thoughtful provocation is both fine and subjective.

    I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

    by kenlac on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:03:43 PM PDT

    •  In terms if distinguishing between realities . . . (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kenlac, Dancun74

      I think my point is that in the real world, everyone does not think as we do.

      So, regardless of what your point of view is, in the real world, there are lots of folks who disagree.

      Not necessarily so in our self selected cyberworlds.

    •  In terms of the types of diaries you are now (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clem Yeobright

      seeing, I think the point is that creating an atmosphere where there is little tolerance for different viewpoints naturally creates "harmony".

      I think that when one is surrounded by folks who are unwilling or unable to see their point of view, there is a tendency to shout louder to be heard.

      And then, there one is scolded for being impolite.

      After a couple of cycles of this, some folks can take a hint.

      •  But shouting louder at unreceptive people (6+ / 0-)

        is something that never works. Certainly it's human nature, but doesn't really accomplish anything.

        At that point it might be time to reconsider how something is being said, rather than the volume with which it is being said.

        I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

        by kenlac on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:16:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  kenlac, stuff has been said all kinds of ways. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kenlac, Clem Yeobright

          The cries for "civility" are always the loudest when someone is saying something that you can't understand.

          Daily Kos has not been "civil" on a wide range of topics for a real long time.

          The sudden adoption of "civility" as what we are  striving for seems rather curious, but hey, I'm all for that.

          Too bad groups with non-majority opinions had to be viciously abused first, but whatever it takes, right?

          •  OK, I get you now. (5+ / 0-)

            You're talking about the very real, dishonest use of "cry for civility" as a tool to shut down debate and points of view that are contentious, but not necessarily uncivil.

            The phrase I've been using a lot lately is, "There are dishonest actors on all sides." In a war of rhetoric, every single thing gets weaponized, including 'civility'.

            I'd say yes, I do see that. But I don't see the current sense of 'peace' to be a result of that. Let's not forget the boycott was voluntary. I don't see the current calmness a result of people being banned -- I see it as the result of a lot of non-banned emo-firsts deciding they were going to put their act in cold storage for a time. I'm very much enjoying the fact that these people are not sucking all the oxygen out of the room. It's refreshing. But if it leads to a kind of bland homogenization, or if vital uncomfortable truths no longer have a path to the surface, then it's a bad thing.

            As for whether the banned or suspended or punished folks deserved what they got -- I'm afraid I'd have to do more research than is possible to make a determination on that. I acknowledge the possibility that in the 'purge' people who were fighting fairly got punished unfairly, but I can't say with any certainty whether that is so.

            All I know is that I've had more decent conversations on this site in the past 4 days (present conversation included) than I've had in the past 4 months. I'll try not to overblow the perceived cause-and-effect relationship here, but it's kinda hard to ignore.

            I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

            by kenlac on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:53:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  a self-serving excuse (4+ / 0-)

            The cries for civility have been going on for a long, long time.  Personally, I've HRd people on all sides for assholery, and if anything I will be more vigorous in doing so.   This is yet another example of the kind of insinuation and smear that is so typical of those who have left.  And I am sure we'll get more of the attacks sotto voce on people's motives for self0-serving reasons.

            Actually, I think we get a good sense of who has been doing the abusing, and it's the folks who are now on boycott.  It isn't that we are missing minority views, it's that we are  missing the assholes who made discussion impossible.

            HEre's hoping kos keep up the aggressive moderating.

            Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

            by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:13:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When it comes to assholery, you certainly know (0+ / 0-)

              of what you speak.

              And if think this diary is a smear, then clearly you are projecting.

              •  and again (3+ / 0-)

                Here we see again, another insult and a complete unwillingness to acknowledge that it was pretty damned offensive.  

                Did you say, acknowledge taht I and others, many others, having been crying for civility for a long time and it has nothing to do with shutting up minority voices or anything like that?  You have open to you the option of acknowledging that, but instead we see yet more insults.

                And do you wonder why I don't particularly relish the return of the boycotters? This style of argument is not missed.

                Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:36:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You reap what you sow. I don't even know you (0+ / 0-)

                  so why are you waiting for me to "acknowledge" you?

                  I am going to call it like I see it, and I don't need your permission to do so.

                  Who gives a flying #@# what you relish? I don't recall asking.

                  •  Precisely (2+ / 0-)

                    You didn't ask, and you don't care what I think.  What I percieve is an interest in making your statement, but none in listening to any response.  That is, I see an active denial of any intent to dialogue.  

                    Furthermore, you don't really seem to care all that much about whether you offend anyone else.  I haven't noticed a lot of effort to understand that.  Yet, I hear a lot of calls for others to listen or to understand.  So, you might consider whether you might be reaping what you sow.

                    Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                    by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:52:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You come in calling me and the other boycotters (0+ / 0-)

                      a$$holes, and now you want to play the victim.

                      You are dismissed.

                      •  well (4+ / 0-)

                        perhaps you might recognize that you have been calling me names and dodging all my points.

                        BUt yes, you write a diary that essentially portrays people here as naive and wanting a monotone echo chamber, and I and a lot of others respond that we don't have a monotone echo chamber, but we do have a place where vitriol is less common.  Yes, I think it does have to do with the boycottes having taken a lot of the trolls with them (and the fact that severalprominent trolls were banned.)

                        I am dismissed.  That's cute.  I love the fact that after making statements about people being insensitive and condescending this is your approach.

                        Very well, your royal highness, I take my leave.

                        Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                        by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:22:40 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  The "sudden" adoption of civility (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skayne

            isn't curious to me at all.

            Things have been getting uglier over time. Meteor Blades left. The ugliness got worse. Everyone was clamoring for Kos to to enforce some standards of discourse and community moderation. There is no easy answer. While he was working on a solution things continued to escalate. He acted quickly and decisively.

            What exactly do you find curious about this?

            We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

            by denise b on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 06:24:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think I explained it pretty well in my original (0+ / 0-)

              comment

              Daily Kos ain't never been a place for touch football, regardless of the topic, so the pretense that now things are "back to normal" and "civil" is comical to me.

              Things have not been "civil" since I've been reading.

              •  You never heard me say (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                skayne

                "back to normal".  I've been here a lot longer than you have, and experienced many periods where the incivility and HR abuse were worse than others, but yes, it's always been there.

                For myself, I'm not big on moderation; I prefer to let everyone speak and just disengage from jerks. For that reason, I decided not to bestow any more donuts myself, and I haven't for several months despite being tempted.

                Nevertheless, the majority of the community seemed to feel that moderation was badly needed after Meteor Blades left, that things were getting out of control. This was not coming from one "side" but from all directions. Eventually, Kos responded as he did. Most people seemed to me to feel it took him too long to do so. I don't think it was entirely clear to anyone on what basis he punished or didn't punish particular people, but I doubt very many people took the time to go back through history to try to figure it out. I certainly didn't. It's his site and his choice. Most blogs I read are moderated, and the moderators don't have to answer to anyone.

                So no, I don't think this was either sudden or surprising.

                I don't buy that that the punishments should have reflected the proportion in which racial groups are reflected in the membership. Why should they? All they had to reflect is the behavior that Kos wants to stop.

                We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

                by denise b on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 10:07:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  denise . . . (0+ / 0-)

                  I have not commented on the punishments that were meted out or the racial background of those effected.

                  This diary is about the way discussions about race are handled (and mishandled) here.

                  One of the big problems is that foks bring so much baggage to the conversation and make so many assumptions, that it becomes impossible to communicate.

                  You just presented your feelings on a whole range of issues that I am sure are important, but are not all reflective of what I wrote the diary about.

                  This is part of the problem . . . I am lumped in with other folks with other issues, and the issues I am presenting are summarily dismissed.

                  •  Yes, you're right (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nashville fan

                    I was not specifically addressing your comments but the entire issue of the boycott as it has appeared to me.

                    My initial comment was triggered by your comment and maybe I misunderstood it:

                    The sudden adoption of "civility" as what we are  striving for seems rather curious, but hey, I'm all for that.

                    Perhaps I should have started by asking you to explain what you meant by this.

                    Based on other discussions in other diaries, I made an assumption about what you meant by "sudden" and "curious".

                    I assumed you meant that the punishments - which were the explicit reason given for the boycott - targeted certain black members in order to silence their anger and their views. I took the word  "curious" to suggest a belief on your part this was not actually about enforcing standards of acceptable behavior at all, but rather about some darker agenda.

                    If this was not in fact what you meant by your statement, I apologize and am ready to hear what you did mean.

                    We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

                    by denise b on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 02:18:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  denise, perhaps there was a misunderstanding (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Clem Yeobright, denise b

                      on my part as well. I have not been around Daily Kos as a frequent participant as of late, so I think that perhaps I have missed some of the efforts to restore civility that came before this latest blow up.

                      In light of that, I can see how the way I phrased the sentence you highlighted could come across in a different way to someone who has been more involved around here. It was not my intent to imply some type of nefarious reason was behind it all . . . I think I was more responding to some of the commentors linking the more civil tone solely to the absence of some of those boycotting.

                      Thank you for your comments and taking the time to read my diary.

                      Much appreciated.

  •  There's nothing wrong with (16+ / 0-)

    seeking out like-minded people with whom one can discours civilly.

    That's the reason why I prefer Daily Kos to Redstate, for example.

    That doesn't make it an echo chamber.

    "Fighting for us, good. Winning, better. Talking about fighting? Not so good."--Atrios

    by andrewj54 on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:06:15 PM PDT

  •  I suggest you read through more (14+ / 0-)

    comment threads:

    but has anybody stopped to consider the price that has been paid for all this "harmony"?

    I haven't seen "harmony" as you describe it.  There are many, many, many disagreements going on here, but for the most part, they're civil -- they're not flame-baiting, they don't involved name-calling, as has been happening here for too many months.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe. Meteor Blades 48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam

    by gooderservice on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:41:15 PM PDT

  •  Oh, and if you really want to see an echo (10+ / 0-)

    chamber, I've got the links for you.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe. Meteor Blades 48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam

    by gooderservice on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:43:00 PM PDT

  •  the Obama flame warring is diminished (4+ / 0-)

    My personal take is, if we really want to elect more and better Democrats, to stop obsessing about the top of the ticket. We'll all pull that lever (anyone who won't should step off now or soon) and Geithner can make up all of netroots in a single lunch or he's been playing the White House (which ... is a different speculative topic I have no original information or perspective on).

    A FP post on Warren just used the phrase "asymmetric warfare". We're going to lose the money game down ticket everywhere but let's concentrate our energies there and pull out wins with a message, vision, and real Democrats getting through the primaries. Instead of obsessing over internal pie fighting.

    Any dog whistling is out of line. Knee jerk accusations of racism are out of line. kos says he doesn't have time for flame warring assholes and I, for one, believe him. He's not worried about collateral damage and he shouldn't be. If all the cat people losing site privileges can swing even a state assembly election then we should rethink the power of the echo chamber. Let's focus.

    If you want racially tinged pie fights that's what youtube comment threads are for.

    If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

    by jgnyc on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 12:47:17 PM PDT

  •  haha (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shahryar, ohmyheck, churchylafemme

    This was snark, right?

    It would seem that folks are content to operate in an alternate reality where the way you can tell if things are going well, is if most folks agree with you and you are rarely challenged on your assumptions/perceptions. I cannot really think of a more anti-Democratic idea than that.

    "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

    by catnip on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:03:46 PM PDT

  •  Huh? (9+ / 0-)

    There has been substantial criticism and defense of President Obama on this blog in the past three days. Likewise, there have been discussions of race in which there was a diverse set of opinions and demographies represented. There have been a number of other debates about a variety of issues that disprove your "echo chamber" allegation. I don't know what you're talking about. There is still division and argument here, same as ever. There's not self-destructive "wars" at the moment.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:09:53 PM PDT

    •  It is interesting how this diary is full of folks (0+ / 0-)

      telling me the very thing I said they would tell me in the diary.

      None so blind as those who will refuse to see.

      Everything is great. Yay team.

      •  but the crux of your diary is that you say that... (10+ / 0-)

        we now have an echo chamber. by definition, an echo chamber would be a place where everyone was in agreement with each other and they sit around bolstering those beliefs.

        it's been pointed out to you by several folks in this diary that what has been experienced here by a whole lot of kossacks is anything but an echo chamber. there are plenty of disagreements all around. it's just a lot more respectful. that's the only thing that's been universally common over the past several days.

        Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. --St Augustine

        by poligirl on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:37:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You know, if it makes you "right" to take the (0+ / 0-)

          most literal interpretation possible and completely miss the point in the process, I'm okay with that.

          •  i just reread your diary in light of this... (7+ / 0-)

            comment and i guess what you mean by echo chamber is that we are mostly all in agreement that we like this civil place over the past few days. and i guess that's what you mean about echo chamber.

            seriously, i don't feel any need to be "right" about anything; i am just trying to understand what you mean when you call this place an "echo chamber". that was your term, not mine.

            Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. --St Augustine

            by poligirl on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:49:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  poligirl . . . I am not trying to be hateful . . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Clem Yeobright

              truly . . . I am saying that basically, the "peace" that has been created at Daily Kos on the issue of race  is similar to the "peace" that they had at segregated schools . . . the "peace" that folks want from dealing with homosexuality . . . because it makes them "uncomfortable" . . . the "peace" that the majority feels when nobody is around to challenge their assumptions . . . sometimes "peace" is not the most noble goal.

              There is a "racial" echo chamber, where all nuance is missed in an attempt to restore "comfort".

              •  i know you aren't trying to be hateful... (5+ / 0-)

                but when you say what you did above, i think it does a great disservice to the people of color who are still here posting and commenting who did not support the boycott; many of them have also noted the peace and civility that's been here for the past few days. this is not a segregated community at all despite the attempts of some of the boycotters to frame it that way.

                i don't think anyone here is afraid to talk about racism, both here and in the greater US. i just think that the easy way the accusation and others was thrown around toward other kossacks made an atmosphere where no issues, especially racism, could be discussed in a civil give and take conversation.

                that's all i'm saying. peace!

                Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. --St Augustine

                by poligirl on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:34:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I find it curious that being myself and sharing (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Clem Yeobright

                  my opinion is a disservice to anyone.

                  I don't speak for "people of color". I speak for myself.

                  Enjoy your "peace" and "civility".

                  Like I said in the diary, I actually do not really care as much as some.

                  But I still said what I had to say.

                  Even if nobody is listening.

                  •  NF if I may (8+ / 0-)

                    The reason I am responding to this comment is because this thread seems to be where the discussion has continued as far as I can tell.

                    I won't repeat what others have said about there being civil disagreement because of course you've read that enough.

                    It seems to me that one of the complaints is that there hasn't been any real discussion on race relations here since this "boycott" began and with that I have to disagree. Following the flooding of the wreck list with the me too diaries there were quite a few diaries sympathetic to some of the complaints made and questions put forth and discussed about how to approach the subject when it comes up. In those diaries there were many differences of opinion but they were either resolved between the people having them or others would step in and offer their opinions the thing was it was done without going for "blood" or what some might consider "the win"

                    As far as those conversations went they were fine but since the very people that supposedly have/had the biggest issues with discussion had left and weren't here to have those types of conversations. Possibly those people who have the most vociferous of these views will attempt to continue those types of conversations but at the same time I hope that they heed the Koserator and don't try and drag out old disagreements and insinuations in the process.

                    After seeing some of the actions since this began I admit I don't have much faith that is how it will transpire but maybe we all can get past the inevitable clash that is sure to come and get back to smash the heads that need to be smashed if we are to accomplish the objective we all, well most agree needs to be accomplished.

                    I hope you take this comment as it was intended and look forward to these types of conversations in the future just as I do.

                    In my opinion NR=Numerical Rater, nothing more, nothing less.

                    by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:09:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Congrats. (3+ / 0-)

        And likewise I could've predicted that you would respond exactly as you have. The ability to predict behavior or responses is meaningless and your anticipation of a certain response doesn't mean that those responses are untrue. It just means you attempted to proactively dismiss them so you wouldn't have to debate them -- that's it.

        Anyway, as to this...

        But now that it has exploded, let's not pretend not to notice. Let's demonstrate that we can get over our collective selves and deal with it. Honestly. Openly. And not with a sneer and smug assurance that we are right because we are surrounded by folks who echo our feelings on the matter.

        I read through this diary and say to you: Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 01:42:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry I only speak English . . . (0+ / 0-)

          Ironically enough, I have not "dismissed" anyone . . . now you on the other hand . . . oh well.

          I said what I had to say as plainly and as nicely as I know how.

          That really is all I can do at this point.l

          Other than leave of course, which based on the smug comments seems like another thing everyone can agree would be just fine.

          In the name of "civility".

          •  Okay. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ohmyheck

            Interested people can use Google Translate. If you're not interested, okay.

            Ironically enough, I have not "dismissed" anyone

            I didn't say you had. I said you attempted to prophylactically dismiss the responses.

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 02:03:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Physician, heal thyself" (0+ / 0-)

            a very cheap shot.

            Am I right, or am I right? - The Singing Detective

            by Clem Yeobright on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 02:03:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Welll, it's a long time in coming (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Great Lakes Liberal, IndieGuy

              To come here and lecutre anyone about blindness when the effects of the boycott are obvious to all, and to deny the reality that is beign communicated, well, take s a lot of nerve, and yes, willfull blindness.

              Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

              by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:15:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes indeed, how dare I share a perspective (0+ / 0-)

                different than yours.

                •  excellent example (4+ / 0-)

                  of the kind of snide, contentless comment I really don't miss.

                  You might, say, engage on the notion that perhaps it is the people who have left that have been blind, or try to respond in a content-laden way.  There are other approaches.

                  Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                  by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:32:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What substantive have you added to the (0+ / 0-)

                    discussion?

                    You are being a jacka$$ for sport and now you want to lecture me in my diary.

                    Whatever.

                    •  ironic (4+ / 0-)

                      Well, I count at least three comments where I explain my position and views without levelling an insult at anyone.  That pretty well qualifies.

                      INdeed, this exchange is exactly what has been absent. Namecalling and insinuated smears. Boy, I do not miss it.

                      It isn't sport.  It is trying to communicate clearly that our experience since the boycott has been oen where the vitriol and insult has declined markedly.  That's what we see.  It isn't a lack of disagreement or discussion.  You raised this issue in the diary, and to say that I am lecturing you for responding to your statemetns really strikes me as the kind of intolerance of other points of view that you accuse others of.

                      Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                      by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:42:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  lots of people share different perspectives (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  churchylafemme

                  but with most people I don't find that the simulataneously dismiss mine entirely while telling me that I need to be more aware of theirs.  I see your persepctive, but it's pretty much just flat wrong.

                  Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                  by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:33:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This diary is not about you, despite (0+ / 0-)

                    your transparent attempts to make it so.

                    •  the hell it isn't! (5+ / 0-)
                      Sorry to interrupt the chorous of folks patting themselves on the back and relieved that all the "troublemakers" have been banished from the kingdom

                      From the very first line, you make it about me and others here.  THe diary goes on to talk about folks and how "folks" here are being all smug.  You include a suggest that "let us demonstrate that we can get over our collective selves... "  

                      I am sorry, but I think I can be forgiven for thinking that your writing was addressing members of this community and that includes me.  

                      If it isn't addressed at me, who else could this language been addressed to?

                      I am sorry that you didn't get the response you were hoping for.  Maybe you expected a more favorable reception, but from what I see, those of us left here are probably steeling themselves more in their views of what has caused the piefighting, and I really don't think the boycotters will return to find this site as welcoming as when they left it.  People have had a taste of what it is like after the troublemakers are banished and they may well advocate for more of it.  I suspect they will be less tolerant of bad behavior going forward.  I could be wrong, but that's my early read.

                      Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                      by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:00:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  and how does this bear any relationship (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      IndieGuy

                      to what I wrote?

                      Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

                      by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:00:51 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  blind? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Great Lakes Liberal, IndieGuy

        I see blindness, but it isn't coming from us.

        Physician, heal thyself.

        Intelligent, passionate, perceptive people will always disagree, but we should not let that disagreement, however heartfelt, lead us to become deaf to those better angels of our nature.

        by Mindful Nature on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:14:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Pick any city on the planet with 300K+ people (4+ / 0-)

    Not one of them is an 'echo chamber'.

    Not even this virtual city, here.

    Unless I've been imagining all those fights I've gotten into over the years, some of them with other white folk...who can be just as parochial and proud and prone to bad days as any kind of folk you can think of.

    It's as if human nature was essentially constant across hair colors, skin colors, eye colors and stuff.

    Whoda thunk it? :)

  •  Nashville fun. Let me be the first to say (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nashville fan, Clem Yeobright

    something positive to you. This place feels cold without the obvious diversity that is missing this week. It might feel like home again when everyone returns. I am sorry about all the negative comments.

  •  I agree. (3+ / 0-)

    A certain "Team" has been missing and as thus, for someone with my views, the site has been less contentious. Despite their tendency to accuse those with whom they disagree of bigotry, to swarm diaries, and propose various "clean ups" of the site, I still support their right to be here.

    That is the irony, I support the right to be here of those who are voluntarily not here; they in turn don't support the right to be here of certain folks, some of whom are no longer here, involuntarily. Simon Daud for example.

    •  they still can read the site (4+ / 0-)

      and could have easily started new accounts already. Team swarming on a site like this is always going to be problematic. I hope kos takes a carpet bomb who cares about collateral damage approach. Blogsites are free to anyone who can type, adsense will sell ads for you. Don't like it here, go homestead somewhere. If your entire act is based around bullying people and thought policing someone elses forum and flame warring someone elses forum go over to the youtube comment threads and get your game on.

      Lets elect more and better Democrats.

      If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

      by jgnyc on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:49:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There's a flaw in your formula (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IndieGuy

    DK - π ≠ DK + ECHO

    -
    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:06:30 PM PDT

  •  There is a difference between conflicting opinions (5+ / 0-)

    and animosity. We still have conflicting opinions here.

    ❧ to thine own self be true ❧

    by Agathena on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:22:24 PM PDT

  •  Maybe some posters don't want to view everything (5+ / 0-)

    through the lens of race relations? Surely we can discuss administration policies without the thread revolving around white privilege?

    The idea that kos is segregating this forum by race or for racial reasons is trivially wrong bordering on nonsense. There have been trolls (of all colors, shapes, sizes and genders) since the dawn of anonymous bulletin boards. kos has decided to smack down out of control asshole-ish behavior. If there are some tenuous statistics pointing at a group that is claiming an identity - this is the internet I could be a 15 year old girl or a cop for all anyone knows - it looks to the casual observer (me, and I'm a 6'7" German who used to play for Everton) that this crew was engaging in organized flame warring. Not allowed? That's up to kos. Some innocent victims? Who cares? It's a forum. No one has any "right" to post here except kos as he owns the domain/business.

    I honestly really hope kos keeps his attitude bad and his trigger finger itchy. Hey, if I go down flaming - and the only posters that would put me over the edge are truthers and they're banned - and lose my ability to uprate comments chances are I'll continue reading the front page.

    And I find the diary (it is still called that, right?) list more interesting with all the meta and pie fighting gone. Now if we could just get rid of those damned cooking diaries ... hey, kidding, just kidding ... ZAP

    If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

    by jgnyc on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 03:45:12 PM PDT

    •  I never said that kos was segregating this forum (0+ / 0-)

      by race or for racial reasons.

      Putting words in folks mouth is a big problem around here.

      Enjoy your echo.

      •  my bad - you are correct (3+ / 0-)

        I was referencing
        "". . . I am saying that basically, the "peace" that has been created at Daily Kos on the issue of race  is similar to the "peace" that they had at segregated schools . . . the "peace" that folks want from dealing with homosexuality . . . because it makes them "uncomfortable" . . . the "peace" that the majority feels when nobody is around to challenge their assumptions . . . sometimes "peace" is not the most noble goal."

        The issue here is flash mobbing diaries and bullying - not whether people are "comfortable" discussing race. I personally don't care about my level of comfort on the internet. I can always leave. I prefer the site without all the meta pie fighting and I don't think kos has an obligation to spend too much time figuring out who said what when.

        That said I apologize for imposing my interpretation on your diary. It was sloppy comment threading and my mistake.

        If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

        by jgnyc on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:54:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And another thing . . . (0+ / 0-)

      who is asking you to view EVERYTHING through the prism of race relations?

      If something is said that I don't like or I find insensitive, I am going to say something.

      It must be nice to have the luxury of only dealing with things when you decide to . . . some of us deal with stuff because we have no choice.

      Big difference.

      I am only asking folks to CONSIDER other folks perspective. Even if you don't agree, poo pooing folks is bad form.

      •  I watched threads devolve (3+ / 0-)

        by an insistence on the white privilege aspect. In cases where the thread was about the Administration I found that gratuitous in all cases but I certainly don't archive blog threads so couldn't say what happened where I wasn't reading. My impression, based on my limited browsing, is there was a crew teaming up and defending the President with race relations as a cudgel.

        I've considered the perspectives involved and I agree with the site admin (kos). Take the level of flame warring down or get out. I find threats of violence and violent rhetoric on anonymous forums amusing but not interesting enough to pay that much attention.

        If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

        by jgnyc on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 05:00:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Reminds me of The $100 Misunderstanding (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nashville fan

    by Robert Gover (amazon and wikipedia). It was written in 1962 and I read it back then and not again since (though I just bought it on Kindle for $1 so that won't be true next week).

    Anyway, Nf, you are not being 100% fair. You should acknowledge that (a) the dKos frat pledged an AA guy just last year and (b) it participates in a major inter-Greek project that takes a whole bus-load to 'the projects' one Saturday in the spring to provide career counseling to the residents.

    Besides that, spot on!

    Am I right, or am I right? - The Singing Detective

    by Clem Yeobright on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:32:10 PM PDT

  •  Classic case of Projection (7+ / 0-)

    The diarist does what most of the people boycotting like to do- project.

    Accuse others of the sins they commit routinely.

    The echo chamber was that group of people running around reccing each other's horrible comments and getting positive reinforcement for bad behavior from their allies.

    Even now, you'll scarcely find any of them admit to doing anything wrong. It was the fault of their "tormentors", and they should be absolved of any responsibility for their actions.

    All the bellyaching as if many of their "tormentors" didn't also get banned as well as have the ratings ability pulled.

    There's been plenty of disagreement. None of the accusations of racism. More for the better, IMO.

    When our deficit warring Republicans say today that they would never approve a tax increase under any condition, the only reasonable response is a hearty laugh, a reference to WWII, and a two-by-four across the brow. - L.Randall Wray

    by skayne on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:40:42 PM PDT

    •  No kidding (6+ / 0-)

      One look over at The Peoples View, where many have chosen to take up residence during this boycott, is all it takes to validate your comment.

      -
      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 04:55:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What sins did I accuse you of? nt (0+ / 0-)
      •  Your accusal of conformity (5+ / 0-)

        You accused the site of becoming an echo chamber, of their being some kind of conformity of opinion.

        That hasn't happened here, but it was what the boycotters have tried to demand happen.

        Most of them went over to the People's View, where everybody can agree that Obama is the Greatest and that the Dailykos is full of racist ignoramuses who fail to comprehend Obama's greatness.

        When our deficit warring Republicans say today that they would never approve a tax increase under any condition, the only reasonable response is a hearty laugh, a reference to WWII, and a two-by-four across the brow. - L.Randall Wray

        by skayne on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 05:29:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most of them? And you base that on what? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clem Yeobright

          The issue is not Daily Kos in general, it is the fact that a large number of folks here prefer not to hear how racially insensitive many of their comments are. So instead, you seek to villify.

          Its cool . . . I'm used to it.

          •  Just calling like I see it (3+ / 0-)

            The vast majority of comments weren't racially insensitive. Just people as unrelenting in their criticisms of Obama as the Obama defenders were unrelenting in their defense. The defenders decided that people making those repeated criticisms hid a deeper pathology.

            They decided to use accusations of racism to stifle
            dissent with Obama.

            When truly beyond the pale statements were made, the kossacks making them were almost immediately banned.

            When our deficit warring Republicans say today that they would never approve a tax increase under any condition, the only reasonable response is a hearty laugh, a reference to WWII, and a two-by-four across the brow. - L.Randall Wray

            by skayne on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 06:30:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I remember you. (0+ / 0-)

    'Nuff said.

    "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

    by IndieGuy on Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 07:28:26 PM PDT

    •  I remember you. (0+ / 0-)

      'Nuff said.

      "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

      by ehrenfeucht games on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 07:40:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Cool. (0+ / 0-)

        I have my own nasty little stalker.

        "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

        by IndieGuy on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 07:48:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And apparently, so does the diarist. (nt) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nashville fan

          "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

          by ehrenfeucht games on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 07:52:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. (0+ / 0-)

            A diarist writes a diary, which is published publicly for all to see and participate in.  Stalkers follow other members from diary to diary, in order to rehash old issues.

            A pissing match started here.

            You didn't like the outcome, so you brought it here.

            Then, not liking the outcome there, and apparently following this observation...

            Now - as creepy as it may be, please feel free to drag this discussion into yet another diary, if you wish.  We can pick it up then.  

            ...you bring it into this diary.

            Well, I fibbed.  I don't feel like picking it up again.  And neither should you.  It's not healthy.  And it really is creepy.

            So good night, sir/ma'am.  

            "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

            by IndieGuy on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 07:58:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's not a pissing match. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nashville fan

              That's two persons engaged in a conversation where one of them suddenly HR'd the other for disagreement in the middle of the conversation in violation of the FAQ, while simultainiously calling that person an "asshole".

              "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

              by ehrenfeucht games on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 08:57:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Awesome. (0+ / 0-)

                For anybody bothering to read this now-ancient thread, you have got to follow it through the various alternate universes through which it has now travelled.  There is no other way to truly savor this last comment.

                "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

                by IndieGuy on Sat Sep 17, 2011 at 08:04:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You posted a link to your own HR abuse from... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nashville fan

                  ...Monday.

                  Why did you post the link if you feel that it is ancient history?

                  It does go to show that Daily Kos has not become any more peaceful and/or civil this week, I suppose, if that was your intention in posting the link to your own HR abuse.

                  "If I can't dance, then I don't want to be in your revolution"--Emma Goldman

                  by ehrenfeucht games on Sat Sep 17, 2011 at 10:43:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  ... (0+ / 0-)

    I learned more in one evening last night about DailyKos, dissent, race relations, interpersonal communications, life...reading through all of the comments of our dearly departed friend. My heart is still heavy.

    I'm not getting that there's anything here to learn.

    When I was still working I spent great sums of money on professionals like cognitive psychotherapists to work on emotional intelligence, cultural diversity, personal, and group development with my management staff and let them use the same pros with their staffs on an ongoing fashion or on special issues. I believe in deep continuous introspection, no matter how difficult, in advice, in the value of action to improve relations. When I see a diary that attempts to teach something on meta I pay attention.

    This diary is off point IMHO and not helpful.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 07:55:46 AM PDT

    •  That thought has been echoed quite a bit . . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clem Yeobright

      but thanks for sharing it anywho.

      I am not going to apolgize for having an "unhelpful" perspective.

      The constant repetition of that phrase I find curious, as if sharing my thoughts can only be validated as it relates to your needs.

      Deep.

      •  My presumption is that everything clicked in... (0+ / 0-)

        ...is intended to add value, certainly by serious writers like you. Obviously you and I both know that not everyone, certainly not every click, adds value. I think, I'm confident, that your goal is to add value. None of us hits our goal with every attempt. Trying to teach such a large group that does contain so may very valuable, talented, and different people, is a pretty hefty task. Few people could do such a thing. I know I couldn't. It's a great task just to share one's own fully-owned reactions with the kind of honesty that "adds value". Insults, projections, assumptions, dividing off "folks" from a diverse audience - these never work, IMHO. Good luck.

        Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

        by kck on Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 08:32:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  While I appreciate the thoughtfulness of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clem Yeobright

          your reply, I think one point that you are missing is that, at least in my case, much of what I write is for me as much as for all of you.

          I said what I needed to say. Everything else is ultimately a byproduct of that.

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