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NYPD very carefully chronicled the mass arrest of OCCUPYWALLSTREET protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge.  And so did the good citizens that were marching.

So, what really happened.  I just had to know.  Police say protesters were warned, protesters say they were led by police onto the bridge.  Somewhere the truth can be found.  However, in spending a few hours looking at vids and pics, I saw what look to be leaders of the Take the Bridge crowd.  So

Let's dissect that.  

And ask for answers to some important questions so the truth can be uncovered.

"Were there provocateurs that led people ONTO the Brooklyn Bridge?"  

Was it the original OccupyWallStreet plan to march ONTO the bridge?

Do any of the OccupyWallStreet General Assembly recognize these people?

Will the March to Brooklyn organizers and/or anyone please answer these questions for us?  Thanks.

In the beginning all were marching onto the Walkway, which is legal.  The streets from Liberty Park to the bridge were lined with police.

Occupy Wall Street

lined with

There are several people I want you to notice.  

There pictures are below.  Can we identify those who led the march ONTO the Brooklyn Bridge?


One woman has a green shirt on with an orange scarf.  Notice the tatoo on the right arm.  Does anyone recognize this tatoo?  What does it mean?

Occupy Wall Street October 1st

One woman has curly long hair and literally gets in front of crowd at entrance to the bridge and yells "Take the Bridge".  She has on denim shorts and a black shirt.  By leading the chant, I doubt many heard the Police warning.   She yells the chant as the Police Officer is warning the crowd.

Occupy Wall Street

And the man with no shirt.  I've seen his pics at others rallys.  He has a huge red star tatooed to his back.  There is also a tatoo on his right arm.  Only a number 6 shows.  What could that be?

Occupy Wall Street October 1st

Occupy Wall Street

Facing the crowd

Occupy Wall Street

In the front row these three hook up with other people that, quite frankly look frightened and confused.  

Occupy Wall Street

Occupy Wall Street

Occupy Wall Street

In the following video, you can see that the woman in the green shirt/orange scarf and the woman with the curly hair know each other.  They each hook arms with the confused looking people and lead the march onto the bridge.

Does anyone know any of these people?  

Did anyone see either of these people, or any of the confused looking people get arrested?Watch closely.  

Slow down the vid and watch the three mentioned above, hook up with the confused looking people and seemingly lead the march onto the bridge.  

It's a fair question "Are these three provocateurs?"  

Why wouldn't those in the front use the Human Mic to relay the Police Warning?

Provocateurs?  Or well-known leaders?  Anyone?

The Front row group facing the crowd and shouting "Take the Bridge"

Occupy Wall Street

While Police Officer issuing warning:

Occupy Wall Street

follow the leaders  

Here we are now, in the middle of the bridge facing the arresting officers.

Do you see the curly haired woman with the denim shorts?

end of

Oh, looks like she might have gotten arrested.  See minute 7:23

What do you think?  Anyone?

After kettling the protesters from front and back, this officer gives them a warning to leave or be arrested.  Kind of hard to leave at this point, you think?  Besides, what a huge waste of vans ready to cart away the people.

So, why post this tonight?  Kossack middleagedhousewife hit the nail on the head for me:

If they were the ones yelling "take the bridge" (9+ / 0-)

1) drowning out the police's clear warning that they'd face arrest on that bridge, and

2) not passing that warning back with the standard "mic check" followed by the people's mic,

it is a valid question.

I completely understand and agree with not wanting to falsely accuse anyone of causing trouble, but something went wrong here, and 700 people, most of whom did not have records, and some of whom were 13, 14, 15, 16 year old children, had to endure hours in cuffs and jail, and now have records.  I don't want to see it happen again.  At the very least, if these people were just overly enthusiastic, they need to next time, to be asked to pass back the police warning of arrest.

Originally posted to War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:10 PM PDT.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Very interesting. I have linked to this diary (22+ / 0-)

    in my New York Times diary. My guess is that the tattoos wash off. They are there as a distraction from the face.

    You are onto something here -- I am sure.

  •  that might be her (5+ / 0-)

    behind the bearded man in the light-green shirt (2nd to the right of green-and-orange).

    (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

    by PJEvans on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:27:55 PM PDT

  •  Well this is getting hilarious. (17+ / 0-)

    Not to question the questions, for sure.

    I have to say, the photo following your

    The Front row group facing the crowd and shouting "Take the Bridge"

    shows a group of people almost all of who are wearing the same shade of blue...some of their shoulders, or on their head, or in their hair, or on a button.

    A few others in this fashion tone are visible in some of your other fotos....

    H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

    by Knarfc on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:28:46 PM PDT

  •  The girl with the green shirt has (9+ / 0-)

    a tattoo on her right arm in Arabic script. 95% sure of that. I can't make out what it says. The red star tattoo is basically meaningless. It's a really big, somewhat poorly done tattoo. It kind of looks like an Anarchy star, but not exactly. They're usually red and black. He's also a skinhead (that doesn't necessarily mean something bad -- he could be an ARA Skinhead) so it could be an allusion to like red star records or something, since they put out a fair shake of punk albums in NY.

    That's all.  

    •  I think the first letter is Shin (5+ / 0-)

      Can anyone here read better Arabic than me? Or enlarge it? I have very rusty Arabic, acquired during a time when I dated a Muslim man.

    •  The smaller man in the orange shirt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      has a tatoo that looks similar...maybe.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:41:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Red star (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mahakali overdrive, bevenro

      could also mean what it's always meant, he's a communist of some variety. Occam's Razor says anyone with a big red star tattoo that's been seen regularly around NY demos is a marxist of some variety, not some double-secret police spy just lurking there wanting t to lure your children into crime and jail.

      it's funny how the wildest, most baseless conspiracy theories that would be met here with brutal denunciation, even banning, on every other topic suddenly become 100% OK, and joined in with total breathless and utterly groundless speculation with less basis than 9-11 tower demolition "theories" when it's about leftists and demonstrations.

      "The existence of a good thing is no evidence of its being enjoyed by the working class." ~ Daniel DeLeon

      by ActivistGuy on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:59:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see an assertion of conspiracy here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I see questions being asked about matters that have not already been answered, which is fine.

        My guess is: not police agents, but likely radicals who wanted (and wanted others) to engage in civil disobedience.  But chances are fair that someone here will know them by sight, so why not ask?

        In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

        by Seneca Doane on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:56:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This seems plausible. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          likely radicals who wanted (and wanted others) to engage in civil disobedience.

          but if it were true would it be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to all or some of the 700 who got arrested and who may not have been trying to get arrested?

          H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

          by Knarfc on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 05:47:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who's to judge? (0+ / 0-)

            I could give you an analysis in terms of foreseeability of harm and all that, but I don't know that I and they would agree on what is acceptable.  For them, this is the chance to foment a revolution.  I'm not going to dissuade them by saying "that's not nice."  They already know!

            In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

            by Seneca Doane on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 08:21:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  it's because of the framing. cops=bad and (0+ / 0-)


        lot of simplistic silliness.

        Most cops = good and most protestors = people who aren't happy with what's going on.

      •  My feeling on this is no one, not even (0+ / 0-)

        a real communist, would want to frame this march and this OWS protest as a communist led event.

        First off, it's not. Second, it just give fodder to Fox News or similar more virulent outlets for their theories on the unAmericanism of protesting Wall Street banks.

        So in that sense, this "Anarchist" with a "Red Star" tattoed on his back in more than suspicious.

        H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

        by Knarfc on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:00:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Some interesting furniture there. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Knarfc, martini
  •  I Saw It Happen Back in the Day (12+ / 0-)

    and this is one of the problems with leaderless organizing in the age of the super surveillance state.

    The question becomes more important when we see the police move against masses of people in the middle and rear who could not hear warnings or notices, nor be informed of any leadership from the front of the putatively leaderless line.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:35:40 PM PDT

  •  Oh, you can bet there are provocateurs. (41+ / 0-)

    We had them in Wisconsin despite Walker's denial. I saw three of them work their way to the front of the crowd one day when Walker restricted access to the capitol and we were gathered outside. They stayed for a few minutes encouraging people to rush the cops, but they were shouted down. Then they whispered to each other and left.

    Who sent them I have no idea, but I have no doubt you will see similar occurrences in New York.

    "Every day is a good day to point out hypocrisy"...PvtJarHead

    by Giles Goat Boy on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:36:22 PM PDT

    •  Some were LOOKING to cause an incident (15+ / 0-)

      and LOOKING to get arrested - as much as the Police were planning on making a ton of arrests

      Quoting someone new to all this who was arrested - 'It seemed like you had some hard core anarchist types who were TRYING to provoke the police - some of these DID clearly try to resist arrest while most of the protestors behaved and did as they were told '

      Note - 'NAZI/POLICE' signs insult ALL police - especially the regular guys who DID empathize with the protestors and were doing as told (often with clear distaste and unease).

      You DID have a few protestors who were NOT helping things - to blame the police for their actions is stretching it.

      And, yes, the cops laid a trap - some of the protestors fell for it or deliberately led others into it.  

      Without bullhorns, communication sucked - and the event leaders did NOT pre-announce the route fearing police reaction.  

      But - being blunt - going on ANY bridge was a mistake.  NO alternate means of egress.  This was a wagon train going into a steep canyon with the Indians on the hillsides.....  

      Look... this may have worked out - the publicity was immense and the police overreacted and arrested TOO many.  

      Clearly, SOMEONE was trying to send a message (quoting a retired senior officer I know) - police or more likely city administration (this was VERY costly to NYC as far as police pay and would have required high up approval) .

      BUT much of the public reaction was not favorable.  

      Even those not supporting the demonstrations said 'What a waste of taxpayer money!......  You think all those cops could be put to better use fighting REAL crime...'  

      •  Great Points! LOL (7+ / 0-)
        But - being blunt - going on ANY bridge was a mistake.

        Good grief, they ticked off the Deficit Hawks!  Good one

        Even those not supporting the demonstrations said 'What a waste of taxpayer money!......  You think all those cops could be put to better use fighting REAL crime

        It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

        by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:40:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Were the ones looking for arrest sincere, or (8+ / 0-)

        provocateurs, that's my question.  And if they were sincere, have they apologized to the 700 others they got arrested who didn't mean to break the law?

        I personally think the police handled the actual arrests very well.  No one was hurt, and in an emotional crowd that size, that required a lot of skill and patience.   I respect them for being professional, even if the order to make an example was underhanded, that came from above.

        I think they can tell these are mostly just idealistic kids who really do care about the middle class, and that includes the police.  And I would hope that one Nazi=Cop sign or the like wouldn't tarnish the reputation of all the other protesters.  The vast majority of these people are well-behaved and just angry at corruption in politics.  Most LE can relate to that, I would think.

        And yes, these arrests did backfire, but I am sure everyone realizes these officers were acting under orders and doing the best they could under the circumstances.  Using provocateurs, though, with this crowd, is truly a waste of money, and unnecessary, not to mention slimy.  You can see right through most of these kids - they wear their hearts on their sleeves - not an ounce of guile there, and no threat to the peace whatsoever.

        Which side are you on?

        by wiseacre on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:02:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Provacateurs? or just Anarchists? (13+ / 0-)

        always a good question at any demonstration.

        In my experience the number of self-style anarchists that have any coherent philosophy beyond smashing plate glass windows and setting newspaper machines on fire is proportionately small.

        It is no surprise that there seems to be little difference in demo and appearance between 'left' Anarchists', 'right' Skinheads, the worst assholes in the mosh pits back in the heyday of Punk, and English and Dutch soccer hooligans.

        You don't have to be a paid police provacateur to not give a shit about just taking a peaceful march or football match and turn it into a figurative and literal firestorm.

        I lived in Berkeley from 1974 to 1993 and saw this same thing play out in just about every protest march and then again in the WTO Battle for Seattle here a couple of years later, the amount of collective political consciousness among these people can generally be measured in thimbles.

        That said the Red A people mostly trail demonstrations rather than march up front in front of people who might not like their cause hijacked by random acts of violence on fricking newspaper machines and plate glass windows, so I am not discounting this post at all. The NYPD has decades of experience doing exactly this kind of crap.

        Just don't discount the "Cool its a demo! Lets turn it into a riot burn shit/steal stuff thing!" The recent events in London showing how legitimate acts of social justice protest can just get hijacked by assholes. The photos are very interesting and lead to suspect there is indeed a mix of motives here.

        Please visit, follow or join our Group: Social Security Defenders

        by Bruce Webb on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:09:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anarchists are mostly staying away (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          War on Error, mahakali overdrive

          your astoundingly ignorant statements about Anarchists notwithstanding, there doesn't seem to be any kind of actual Anarchist presence at #OWS.  Usually we're among the best-organized group at a protest, but I haven't even heard of a single clear call-out from any collective at all.  There might be a few individuals here or there that call themselves "anarchists," but without a collective an anarchist is just some guy.  Red Star Skinhead guy is probably a Marxist who went off the deep end.  Really, no organized, self-respecting Anarchist is going to be so irresponsible as to potentially endanger hundreds of people like this without their consent.  And they certainly wouldn't get caught dead dressed like that.

  •  As to the tat on the right arm question (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive, Siri

    is it the Arabic sh symbol?

    Sorry not html link only.

    Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

    by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:38:48 PM PDT

  •  There were some of the same kind of instigators (10+ / 0-)

    at the 1999 WTO Battle in Seattle.

    Didn't end well.

    It's not how many votes are cast, but counted.

    by ozsea1 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:43:14 PM PDT

  •  "Take the Bridge" doesn't sound like something (17+ / 0-)

    they've been advocating.  That alone should be discussed in their meetings.
    What I want to know is that dude with no shirt, does his arm ever get tired?  Does he sleep like that?

    S.A.W. 2011 STOP ALL WARS "The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 07:44:06 PM PDT

  •  Can we not be too quick to label these folks (11+ / 0-)

    please? While I am sure there are and were agents provocateur there, we have no reason to really think these people are them. And if they are good protesters, this is really veering into unhelpful false allegations. Point being that we don't know. So why are we picking on a few people? Divide and conquer. If there is MORE PROOF than it's worth discussing. Otherwise, not good.

  •  The letters are in Arabic for guilt-by-association (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error, lotlizard

    purposes is my theory.

  •  I have put a link to this diary in a comment to a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error, Siri

    photodiary on the rec list: ##occupywallstreet Photo Diary: "Just the beginning" This is the comment. I have to sign off soon -- perhaps others could comment in more diaries. I also believe that Charlie Grapski has a treasure trove of photos and videos and might be interested.

  •  Here is the girl in blue in the glasses (6+ / 0-)

    in another news story from Friday night.

  •  Heres a photo the girl in shorts is on the left (7+ / 0-)

    side 19th photo down. About 10 feet back from the front as they make their way up the bridge.


  •  The Guardian interviewed several people... (13+ / 0-)

    and reported that Accounts vary as to how about 500 protesters ended up on one lane of the road across the bridge..

    Some accused the police of leading them on to the road as a sort of trap.

    Video clips posted on YouTube, showing a small body of officers marching on to the road ahead of the mass of demonstrators, appeared to support this view.

    But the NYPD rejected those claims, saying that many warnings were given by police to protesters to stay on the pedestrian walkway that runs across the bridge at a level above the road...

    The police version of events was supported by some protesters.

    Malcolm Harris, a blogger who took part in the march, tweeted that the police were wrong-footed. "The police didn't lead us on to the bridge. They were backing the fuck up."

    Other participants suggested the confluence of so many on the road was a misunderstanding. Robert Cammiso, 48, told the Associated Press: "We were supposed to go up the pedestrian roadway. There was a huge funnel, a bottleneck, and we couldn't fit. People jumped from the walkway on to the roadway. We thought the roadway was open to us..."

    In this report a day earlier, the Guardian quoted one of the protesters: "About half way across the group of people who wanted to occupy the bridge launched their action and stepped into the road....

    They wanted to get arrested. It was sort of the idea," said Yaier Heber, one of the marchers.

    But others said the sit-down protest appeared to happen only after the protesters were deliberately blocked off by police after actually being allowed onto the roadway.

    Seems that there was a lot of confusion, and it's possible that people had different experiences in different locations?

  •  Here is another very loud woman who disappeared. (8+ / 0-)

    Charlie Grapsky is looking for the girl who was dragged into the street by a white shirt reaching way in behind the barrier and then slammed to the ground. See item 2 in the blockquoted list of possible action items near the bottom of his diary entitled "Prelude to Pepper-Spray: Part 1 - The Prior Police Attack."

    2. We need to determine the identity of the woman in the black t-shirt (victim) and ensure that she has proper legal representation and was given appropriate medical care.  We need to find out what she has been charged with and whether she has been released from jail, has been able to post bond (if required), and if she is in need of any other assistance.
    She was apparently hurt and even had blood on her face, although I didn't see the moment of injury myself. I wonder why she hasn't been located yet.

    We have a lot of detective work to do. And I think that the leaders of any future marches should be made familiar to all the marchers. Perhaps they can be chosen by lot, so as to maintain the very-important lack of hierarchy.

  •  This is an ENDLESS epistemic question (5+ / 0-)

    I knew this would come up. It is a fair question of course, but it tends towards the mystical.

    How many people in Seattle during the WTo events were agent provocateurs? Real revolutionaries? Anarchists?

    My point is that there is a quasi-mystical leading edge to such movements, where the tectonic plates of the power structure and the people meet.

    This is an endless question and it will defy this type of approach.

  •  The psychology of crowds is well known and can (3+ / 0-)

    be manipulated so the crowd takes on a life of it's own.  It almost happened on the bridge with some pushing by individuals.  Look for it to happen again and maybe violent action by both the protestors and the police.  A level of frustration will build on both sides.  A spark is all it takes to ignite a peaceful crowd or ramped up cops.

    Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:22:46 PM PDT

    •  The protestors are doing an awesome job (7+ / 0-)

      restraining their frustrations so far.

      I think they know the stakes are really, really high.

      That is why my eyebrows raised when it became apparent that the March ONTO the bridge seems provoked and led.

      I wasn't looking for this.  I was analyzing vids and pics to see if the police actions were in order with what they said they were.  I found that they did warn the people before they moved ONTO the bridge. The vid was backed up by the still pics.  Kinda hard to coordinate all that, so yes the people were warned.  The warning was drowned out; however.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:52:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well there's no REAL spontenaity in these things.. (6+ / 0-)

        whether the plan all along had been to take the bridge, or whether some of the  more fervent planned it 10-15 minutes in advance, or on spur of the moment, who knows...

        Might be worth finding out more about when the 'Whose bridge?  Our bridge!' chant started....

        There was probably a critical mass of people in the crowd (2%?  5%?) who were fine with a  more substantial act of civil disobedience, and the rest of the crowd was caught up in group mentality.  My guess is that only a relatively small percentage was really thinking about getting arrested...

        None of this looks like a trap set by the cops, though---protest movements say this sort of thing all the time--that's standard rhetoric.

      •  The question that remains... (4+ / 0-)

        is whether the police's warning was really a meaningful warning, regardless of any shouting up front by a few members of the crowd. An officer's actions in a crowd control situation like this should not seem to contradict his spoken (and easily distorted through a megaphone amplifier) words. The police didn't stop them from walking onto the bridge and arrest anyone that tries to pass. If they had, that action would have been consistent and immediately communicated their intent. They also didn't continue to repeat their warnings clearly to individuals as they peacefully passed by. So a few vocal speakers up front at that single moment of pseudo-'warning' doesn't really absolve the police.

        The man who moves a mountain begins by moving away small stones. -Confucius

        by Malachite on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:11:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I was looking at that same group (18+ / 0-)

    and it just raises my red flags.  

    This is what I said in my liveblog diary around 7pm about that same video:

    The footage was released by the NYPD and it shows an officer warning protesters at the beginning of the march that they would be arrested if they walked on the roadway of the bridge.  It is doubtful that the people in the rear heard any of this and the ones in the front look like they defied it on purpose and the ones in the rear followed unknowingly.  The whole scene seems a bit odd to me.

    Basically, I've got nothing except a sense that something is not right there and the people in that front row just don't seem right to me.  I also wondered about the two guys in hoodies.

    I have a whole bunch of pictures from the beginning of the march and videos.  I wonder if they are in the front at the beginning of the march.  Not that they could not have made their way out to the front, but the nature of the marching crowd -- just doesn't add up.  They were all in line, nobody leaving the sidewalks, the police were in front of the march, all along the side of the march and a lot of police were bringing up the rear too.  They were everywhere, down the side streets, everywhere.

    Below is one still shot from the very front of the march as it was one block away from the park on Broadway.  There may have been one row of people ahead of them that I could not get a clear shot of though, carrying an Occupy banner, black letters on white.

    I have video of the protesters walking by and I think I got video of the entire thing, beginning to end, except maybe for that first row but there are parts of the video where there is an obstructed view of them.  I should have that pieced together and uploaded to YouTube tomorrow.  I don't know if it would help you or not.  I'd also love to know who brought up the Brooklyn Bridge idea.

    •  I'm not there, as you are, but must confess (16+ / 0-)

      to a bit of an addiction to the livestream.  From listening to and watching that, what happened seemed very out of sync with usual protocol.  Just as an example, this evening, someone climbed a tree in the park during the assembly meeting, and the people's mic immediately, loudly and vehemently passed back the message to get out of the tree.  The 99ers have been very careful to be lawful and peaceful, except in the Brooklyn Bridge incident.  The police certainly seemed to be expecting large arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge -- they came prepared with loads of plastic cuffs and were there on the bridge waiting.  Maybe it was innocent, but it sure smells fishy.

      "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

      by middleagedhousewife on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:37:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It does (11+ / 0-)

        and yes, it's out of character from the march that I saw and I saw nearly every protester who marched out of the park.

        A few more things I am thinking:

        - If they marched from the park, they would not necessarily have been in the front of the march.  A lot of the march had already proceeded onto the passenger walkway by the time that policeman gave the warning and the scene happened.  The crowd was funneling onto the walkway.

        - I did read some accounts from other people who joined the march not at the park but closer to the bridge.

        - I also read accounts of people who joined the march along the way, who were not originally part of the march.

        - I heard Vlad on the livestream today answering questions about a march today.  He said that they usually like to rest on Sundays but that if a person wanted to organize a march, he or she could come down and do that (prob via an assembly?) and that there would most likely be people who would be willing.  There's a schedule for the weekday marches but I think it is a tentative schedule and subject to a decision from the assembly.  On Saturday, we were right there at the park and did not know that they were going to the Brooklyn Bridge.  We got there around 1 and were told that the march would be around 3pm.   We assumed it would be toward Wall Street or City Hall.  Nobody said it would be to the bridge.

        •  Communication gaffe? (4+ / 0-)

          That's bound to happen.  I have full faith the brainiacs will fix this.  And, with enough exposure, people can learn how to inadvertently end up kettled AFTER a police warning has been issued.

          I wish they had filtered out she young kids from the bridge and from the police arrests.  Shameful.

          It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

          by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:28:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Why so many command officers? (3+ / 0-)

        That's what jumped out at me right away. As I understand it white shirts are lieutenants and above and would not normally be on front line crowd control duties. Yet every early report of the bridge march emphasized the number of white shirts involved. Don't these guys have cops to supervise? On the other hand if disruption orders were coming down from the top these guys would be that more reliable than rank and file cops who might well be enduring their own screwing by the Banksters.

        An odd allocation of fairly expensive personnel resources. Unless Captains and Deputy Inspectors like Tony Baloney don't get to collect overtime (something I don't believe for a minute).

        Please visit, follow or join our Group: Social Security Defenders

        by Bruce Webb on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:30:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fabulous, Joanneleon. Can't wait to see them. (7+ / 0-)

      I think we will be doing a great service if we can piece this together for the folks.

      Peace and courage!

      Let me know, K?  What's your youtube moniker?

      I am waronerrordkos.  Please feel free to mirror my vids, time allowing, so if I get shut down, there will be backups.

      I'll do the same for you if you would like.

      Team dkos!

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:56:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're there and a little voice said "wait a sec" (11+ / 0-)

      People need to pay attention to that little voice.  We have sophisticated pattern recognition abilities in our subconsciousness for survival reasons.  They tested it recently and human pattern recognition outdid computers in terms of quickness and just seeing things computers couldn't.  I always listen to mine, even if I feel foolish at the time, and I've never been sorry, even if it turned out to be nothing, because you don't know how many other times it's saved my butt.

      Which side are you on?

      by wiseacre on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:44:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I look forward to seeing what you come up with. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
  •  pointing fingers can distroy the movement (17+ / 0-)

    unless one knows something for sure putting a "bad jacket" on fellow protestors is very dangerous. Have you or anyone attempted to talk to them in person before going so public with accusations of "provacatuer"?

    I've been a leader of many protests and take overs and I know one of the things that split people and render them too paranoid to work together is pointing fingers without evidence or sufficient reasons.

    Please be careful. In the first place the arrests on the bridge weren't all bad. Secondly the leaders may have been very sincere in their desire to occupy the bridge. And finally we still don't know if they were themselves entrapped by the police.

    Please be careful.

    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

    by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:29:40 PM PDT

    •  All of these warning are worth attention. (5+ / 0-)
      •  which warnings mine or the diarists? (3+ / 0-)

        I think folks should put themselves in the shoes of those being pointed out. For a tatoo or wearing blue? Very sparse evidence imo.

        America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

        by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:58:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, as for the guy with the tattoo... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          this video does show that he's pretty much moving things right along...

          •  and that's meaningless (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrkvica, mahakali overdrive, chuckvw

            unless you think 666 really is the mark of the devil.

            But we don't know if his taking charge was a bad thing or good. We don't know what his intentions are or were, all we know is he has a tatoo and was in the lead. Is that bad? Good? Should he even be pointed out and possibly face retribution by the police or some real provactuers?

            I say give them all a break and assume they're good guys working for the people. He's one of us until proven otherwise.

            Paranoia will distroy the movement as real provactuers prove all the time.

            America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

            by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:53:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i don't buy the provacateur bit here. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345, mahakali overdrive

              i was making an observation.

              in a crowd of a few thousand of this sort you're always going to have a bunch who are much more willing to take the civil disobediance route...sometimes for the cause, sometimes just to cause trouble....these guys might be a mix.

            •  He moved things along to a place where everyone (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345, War on Error

              got arrested. I think there is something not so good here.

              •  tell us why? do you know anything? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                and try to put yourself in his shoes. Some people think the arrests were a good thing for the protest. Some think it was done by the police. But everything is speculation.

                Only those on the scene should be speculating about other protestors actions and that should never be done behind their backs.

                It's ugly and distructive to the movement. It's something agents provacatuers do first when they infiltrate a movement. It sows the seeds of distrust among brothers and sisters. Why couldn't those in the pictures accuse the diarist of being an agent too? Or you, for pointing rhetorical fingers?

                It distroys trust and divides the people.

                Please be careful. Stop the finger pointing. Now.

                America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

                by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:41:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I guess that you feel the same way about (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buckybadger1988, lotlizard

                  Charlie Grapski, who is reconstructing things from other people's videos, if you require that "only those who were there" try to figure this out. Eye witness testimony is often faulty -- believing that it is superior has led to the murder of many innocent people by the state for crimes they did not commit. Video and photo evidence is more reliable.

                  These people led everyone onto a bridge and 700 people got arrested. Whether they were agents provocateurs is still to be determined, and it may never be. However, checking out photos and videos is not making accusations.

                  They can accuse the diarist of anything, but they will sound silly because the diarist did not lead 700 people across the bridge to be arrested. Do you see the difference?

                •  As for whether the arrests were a good thing for (4+ / 0-)

                  the protest, that is up to those who were arrested to decide. Why are you so concerned about the individual rights of people who led the march in a direction that got 700 people arrested, and who will not be arrested or hurt in any way, even if it turns out that they were employed by the police, yet so unconcerned about the rights of the 700 who got arrested for following those people at the front, whether or not they were agents.

                •  You're entitled to your opinion, and others are to (4+ / 0-)

                  theirs. One of the posters here was there on the bridge, posted her pictures, has the same questions.

                  Some people think the arrests were a good thing for the protest.

                  That's a little callous.  The hundreds of people who didn't intend to get arrested and now might have a police record sure didn't.  Everyone has the right to make that decision for themselves.  Even if these people weren't provocateurs they showed poor judgment and owe several hundred people an apology.

                  Which side are you on?

                  by wiseacre on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:56:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  If he intended good, why did he lead people onto (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345, War on Error

              the bridge? What is there to figure out? Also, what is it with the raised fist? That was totally out of place and seemed intended to be seen in photographs.

              •  why are you speculating and dividing people? (0+ / 0-)

                why are you pointing fingers without proof of anything? Are YOU being paid to sow distrust? What's your real name? How can we trust you now that you've done this shit?

                You see, specualtion can go both ways. I've raised my fist in a hundred protests but I'm not an agent. I've taken the lead in many protests and I've made mistakes. But I'm not on the wrong side.

                Your questions, done without a shred of evidence, are wrong, not only to the young man who is standing for all of us, but you're harming the entire movement. What are your motives? How can we be sure your answer is true?

                America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

                by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:50:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  at 4:00 he puts on the blue shirt (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ej25, worldlotus, War on Error

            with white lettering on the back...maybe visible in earlier/later video elsewhere before arrests started.

            In other video there was a moment when they started arresting where two hardons in white shirts start at the crowd, but a bluejacketed police guy stops them and lectures them with a finger wagging in the face of one, then the white shirts go and seem to select at random, or by that blue jacketed's direction. It appears that the jacketed guy was trying to keep a lid on things...imo

            The orange scarf/green shirt girl shouldn't be too hard to find in the arrested video, she was near the front..the guy I am curious about, and that's all it is, is tall w/black hair and has on a bright blue windbreaker and is always holding his hand over his face, well before the all pic sources I've seen...meaning what I have no clue, I do remember seeing similarly well dressed guys with shiny shoes busting out of a peaceful march to break windows, we always figured they to be police cadets or FBI probationers.

              I'm with cacamp on this, it's interesting but really divisive, and yes, it likely might happen, which is why the  real leaders need to make sure this can't happen again...whatever the motivation, this appears to be capital T Trouble that a march can be led so easily in this way..again, for whatever the motivations.

            ..squinting all the while in the glare of a culture that radiates ultraviolet consumerism and infrared celebrity...Russell Brand

            by KenBee on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:30:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No, for leading the march onto the roadway. *That* (0+ / 0-)

          is the main thing. The tattoos may be genuine, but they do distract from faces.

    •  All points well taken. (6+ / 0-)

      I struggled with this since last night.

      I followed my conscience on this one, cacamp.  How to explain?  I felt, in this case, it was the right thing to do.

      For instance, had I been the leader daring to move group onto the bridge, I would have made damn certain no children were included.

      Perhaps good will come out of this, it's possible, right?

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:59:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this diary was a bad fucking idea (4+ / 0-)

        You should have taken it up with the protestors themselves instead of pointing fingers at innoceent protestors who are standing up for us all. You could have asked the kossacks who are there to do it for you. There are all kinds of avenues you could have taken besides putting shit up in public without evidence.

        Now it's piublic and you've tarred people you don't even know. Read the comments, not a damn thing substancial has been said or discovered but all of a sudden some protestors are being called possible agents provacatuers without a shred of evidence. You may have put them in danger or tarnished good people for nothing.

        I'd be ashamed.

        America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

        by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:02:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't call anyone anything. (0+ / 0-)

          The question includes the option Brave Leaders.

          And, no, I am not ashamed.  I followed my conscience on this one.  I listened to the 'quiet voice' wiseacre mentions above.  I believe good will come out of this diary.

          And, really, accusing me of tarring people is a bit extreme, you think?

          It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

          by War on Error on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 07:25:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Tough. If they're innocent they are innocent. (0+ / 0-)

          If they have something to explain, let them decide to come out and do so.

          You should have taken it up with the protestors themselves instead of pointing fingers at innoceent protestors

          Most of the protesters you mention who should have been consulted ended up arrested probably not to their expectattion. I don't expect too many of them to immediately jump back into this protest. They are probably a bit disorientated and otherwise busy with their lives.

          Again I really don't think people expected to be arrested on this bridge. It's not a famous symbol of capitalist or Wall Street oppression.

          Now it's piublic and you've tarred people you don't even know.

          I don't see the point. If these people were protest march "leaders", maybe they're heroes. Or something.

          H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

          by Knarfc on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:13:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The diary isn't outing anyone. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The group about whom many have questions had no desire to remain anonymous.

      Their photos are everywhere.  Had they not been, these questions would not have surfaced.

      The original intent of this study was to look at the police behavior and check the visual record with the police claims of warnings.

      The blatant, public, and highly recorded intent to "Take the Bridge" by these people then became the story and raised these legitimate questions.

      Add to that compassion for hundreds of people that may have had no idea of the warning, drowned by the Take the Bridge shouting by this small group, as seen in the photos above.

      I understand your point of view; however, the title asks

      Are they BRAVE LEADERS, Provocateurs, or Agents?

      The possibility of brave leaders was intentionally included because it is a possibility as much as the other two.  It's a balanced question.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 07:20:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's the girl in the green shirt (9+ / 0-)

    with an orange rag tied around her face so that she isn't pepper sprayed, presumably, photographing while being half crushed while someone is being arrested:

    lower-right hand corner.

  •  I think it's a legitimate question (17+ / 0-)

    I don't think it hurts a bit for people to know that those who have "been there, done that" are keeping a lookout for provocateurs.  We learned some hard lessons back in the day, and we didn't forget them.  

    I, too, think it's odd that there was a concerted effort to get people to go on the bridge and no mic to broadcast the warning.  They all just as easily could have gone on the walkway without any problem.  The NYPD logistics and personnel waiting at the other end show this to have been a carefully thought out exercise.  You can bet provocateurs are part of any carefully planned police operation.

    As for "the arrests weren't that bad" in another comment - that's a weird thing to say.  Most of the protesters were not seeking arrest, as far as I can tell.  They should have been allowed to make that decision for themselves.  There should be a healthy skepticism of people who merrily lead the naive and inattentive or just unlucky into getting arrested.  Maybe it's nothing.  Maybe they're all just overly enthusiastic.  But if they didn't know better, they need to wise up.

    These kids don't know about provocateurs.  People would have a stroke if they knew how much time, energy, and money goes into LE developing political snitches and provocateurs in this country to monitor activity that should be protected free speech.  How many thousands of people earn a living doing it.

    If something seems off, pay attention.  We were naive and idealistic before.  No more.

    Which side are you on?

    by wiseacre on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:54:23 PM PDT

    •  You are wise, wiseacre. Age and wisdom (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ej25, KenBee, joanneleon, lotlizard

      can often be related.

      I was hoping the youngers might invite the elders to form a working group.  A group of elders to run things by.  How we all could have benefited if our elders weren't high on two cocktails by 6:30PM every day and not prone to digging too deeply into 'issues' back then.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:16:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I doubt they will, but it won't stop me (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        War on Error, ej25, KenBee, joanneleon

        and others who know what's up from keeping a lookout. Besides, you and I both know we wouldn't have listened to our elders :).

        But those in the ether and on the ground can certainly speak up. I remember another comment in another diary where the person was talking to Internal Affairs and the officer admitted they were well aware they were under scrutiny.  So scrutiny of authority, in this day and age particularly, makes it safer for those critical of the status quo.  Especially since some of these kids remind me of my own.

        If anyone is offended by questions about the source of their inspiration for helping get 700 people arrested, well...I think they should be apologizing, myself.  

        Which side are you on?

        by wiseacre on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:33:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Curly haired girl appears (7+ / 0-)

    to get arrested @ the 7:30 mark of video in your diary
    Best Video Yet:...

    Could be a fake arrest. Plants appear to friends with real protestors to get information. About the same time police lines forms you'll notice a small number of the officers wind breakers are royal blue.

    "...on the (catch a) human network. Cisco."

    by hoplite9 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:58:41 PM PDT

  •  j'accuse sucks (9+ / 0-)

    Is this the place to crowdsource undercover cops?

    On the old indymedia, this would make sense.  On a listserv for the protests, this would make sense.  On a permanently preserved left wing forum?  My reaction to this diary was to recoil.  I think it reflects horrible judgement.

    There are certainly cops in the crowd and they may very likely have done exactly what you describe.  And this still rubs me entirely the wrong way.

    ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

    by jessical on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:11:09 PM PDT

    •  I'd be interested in hearing more. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jessical, martini, ej25, erush1345

      Anything can be deleted.  And, trust me, I did struggle, but in the end I had to follow my conscience.

      If I didn't post, and something really bad happened, I would have regretted it.  I already have a back pack of regrets.

      Does that make sense?

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:19:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sure (4+ / 0-)

        it is just one comment, and one person's reaction.  Like anyone, I have to run with my own compass, and I would not presume to be yours...but it bothered me enough to say something, so I did.  Generally cops get outed by people comparing notes, so that is a good thing.  But is it worth smearing one person who maybe didn't make the best choice in the heat of the moment but whose heart was in the right place?  To me, no, not ever, not on this potential scale.  I feel strongly enough to comment -- it is a potentially very nasty and damaging accusation that a person would never be able to truly refute...and the general impact might be to discourage people, I think...but have never been one to issue pious cries of "delete this diary".

        To me, we have a huge issue of demonstration training.  The folks in the 60s had it down -- they were there to train us for CISPES and anti war work in the 80s.   Now, at any given event, there are both over the top folks and undercover cops...and people who may simply have made a less than optimal call in the moment.  

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:31:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perfectly stated. Thank you so much for doing so (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ej25, jessical

          One might imagine that, at the onset, the scope of this movement might not have been anticipated.

          In my Pollyanna mind here is what I would like to see.

          In your imagination picture links of a chain.

          Each person is a link.

          Beginning at the park, one person becomes the first link and stays in that position, replaced by another at intervals for obvious reasons of need.

          The second person takes one hand and reaches forward, ready for another to take the available hand.

          Now (tell me if I failed to provide the vision here)

          Picture what I see as "Hands Across Manhattan"

          People walk out of the park, one at a time and take the last hand.  

          At street crossings, the person on THIS side of the street just points to where the next person is supposed to go.

          Here's the fun part.  If you are on the corner, you get to decide what direction the next person is to go.

          That way, there is no anticipating.

          Word can be spread that people can jump in if they are one of the 99% and give a LINK a needed break.

          Peaceful, spontaneous directions, enroll all of Manhattan because

          Most are the 99%

          Well, that's my silly vision.  It could go on 24/7, as people replace others.  And I'm sure there are a few link crimps to be worked out.

          Nite all.

          It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

          by War on Error on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:56:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This isn't to catch the person and smear him. We (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345, War on Error

          probably won't be able to anyway. He will disappear. But at least we will be on the lookout next time. This was 700 arrests -- it deserves to be explained.

    •  700 people got arrested. The point isn't to find (4+ / 0-)

      and punish any agents provocateurs, it is to find out if they existed and make sure that everyone is warned about them in the future (not warned about these particular ones, necessarily, but warned about what happened and told how to keep it from happening again.

      •  It is a person's picture (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        "it isn't about smearing" is disingenous and, to my reading, quite righteous sounding.  You're saying that persons x and y -- look, here are there pictures -- are probably agents procs.  

        A really paranoid person might note that outing actual undercover cops is against the law.  There's no win here -- either we are breaking the law in a forum which was not set up to take those risks (there are such forums, and they are important and do good work) or we are, indeed, saying that this or that person is a corrupt and vile agent of the state, when they are not.  

        The way to keep it from happening again is to write a diary about how to conduct pre demonstration training and how to change the culture of demonstrations which has evolvoved over the last decade or so.  And perhaps to reflect on whether such an approach is still possible.  

        Generally when folks combine a sense of righteous housecleaning with moral indignation, and point to specific individuals (without compelling proof), they make their biggest mistakes.  They stop seeing individuals who are hurt by our choices, or the impact of our speech and actions, and start speaking to some cause or threat.  It is a particularly pernicous way to surrender moral agency.

        Mileage varies.

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 07:51:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think anyone will be found to be accused. (0+ / 0-)

          Anyone who is able to be located is automatically not under suspicion in my book. I don't think anyone else is looking to find a particular person, either.

          There is a great deal of rumor and suspicion among the protesters. On Saturday night in Zuccotti Park, I heard all sorts of speculation - that police provocateurs had led the protesters to their demise, for example. Another protester claimed "none of us" recognized the protesters at the front of the march. But other protesters told me they felt they were making tactical mistakes when choosing protest locations, mistakes that have led to mass arrests.

        •  I am curious (in general) about this law you cite (0+ / 0-)

          that finds outing an undercover cop to be against the law. What is that? Does that mean that if someone sees a man with "cop" shoes, whatever they are, in a crown victoria and I nudge my friend and say "don't jaywalk, that looks like a policeman," that I am breaking the law?

  •  Oh give it a rest. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    How any of these protesters have advanced degrees?  Only in America do we expect a crowd made up of well educated (albeit poor) elites to be lederless.  Somebody got it into their head to take the bridge, and it seems to have been a PR victory (showing people willing to get arrested for the cause).  If the protesters want to prevent this in the future they need better lines of command.

    BTW if you want I can give you the names of the "proocatures" who broke the law at the Woolworths in Scottsboro in 1960. From Dictatorship to Democracy, Guide to Non Violent Protests.

    by sdelear on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:48:46 PM PDT

  •  It's possible that they were plants, just as it's (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Siri, erush1345, ej25, chuckvw

    possible they are just (A) idiots; (B) anarchists; or (C) just general troublemaking shit-stirrers.

    As we saw in the UK, those elements seek out protests.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:54:24 PM PDT

  •  Interesting theory (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brockman, War on Error

    This vid hasn't been widely seen yet and has some spectacular footage at the street level of the chants, march, stop by the police line and beginning of the arrests.

    I see the green shirt girl when they first sit down but not the red star guy or the curly haired girl. The green shirt girl disappears later too. It does look like the curly haired girl may have gotten arrested at the 7 min mark of your vid above but it's just not clear. At any rate, here's another view of the events and a really amazing vid in and of it's own right.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

    by Siri on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:57:15 PM PDT

  •  You can see the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ej25, Siri

    curly haired girl being arrested around 7:45 of this vid. Earlier, you see the skin-head looking guy put on a shirt with lettering on the back. I don;t see what happens to him after.

    Interesting thoughts about the life that a crowd takes and how, maybe a few individuals can shape it.

    "'club America salutes you' says the girl on the door/we accept all major lies, we love any kind of fraud"--The Cure, "Club America"

    by Wheever on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:01:37 PM PDT

  •  i have been involved wth NYC left politics since (6+ / 0-)

    the late 70's and there are always groups who want arrest Some groups show up at marches and jump in the front and tr to start shit. In well organized marches it doesn't work but when no one is in change or in a leadership role then it is very easy for a few individuals to cause chaos. No matter what their motivations the one thing you can be sure of is that a lot of those 700 people will not be  participating in anything any time soon, maybe never again.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:01:38 PM PDT

  •  Another provacateur? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ej25, DerAmi, lotlizard, Knarfc, War on Error

    At about the :50 mark of the police arrest 700 video a bicyclist comes up the on ramp and is beckoning the protesters onto the road. He's at least 50 yards ahead of the "leaders". There's no way he's in touch with them.As he comes up to the camera he yells "Take It."  

    "...on the (catch a) human network. Cisco."

    by hoplite9 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:14:51 PM PDT

  •  I was at #occupyLA today (6+ / 0-)

    we went on a processional subway ride from downtown to North Hollywood and back.  Apparently, some of the protesters had checked with the polica ahead of time and continued to throughout the action, and it went off without a hitch.  But there were a few people who would shout "The police are terrorists" whenever a directive from the police (like "make sure you buy a ticket because we'll be checking them" -- they didn't) was sent out.  I suppose these elements are inevitable.

    "Fighting for us, good. Winning, better. Talking about fighting? Not so good."--Atrios

    by andrewj54 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:19:43 PM PDT

  •  War on Error are you on Twitter? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Siri, ej25, boadicea, erush1345, War on Error

    Anjali Mullany is trying to piece together this story for the New York Daily News and is looking for witnesses.  And I've been trying to connect her to kossacks.

    anjalimullany Anjali Mullany
    People who were there: did anyone actually see cops split the march on the Brooklyn Bridge? If YOU actually saw anything like that, tell me.
    4 hours ago

    anjalimullany Anjali Mullany
OK, now I'm looking for protesters who were on pedestrian level of the BK Bridge Saturday, please tweet me. I'll follow if you prefer to DM.
3 hours ago

    anjalimullany Anjali Mullany
@Newyorkist i am working on it with the daily news. we need to get our facts straight first. hold on.
2 hours ago Unfavorite Retweet Reply

    anjalimullany Anjali Mullany
Was anyone kettled on the lower deck of the Brooklyn Bridge yesterday allowed to say they were returning to Manhattan and leave?
1 hour ago

    anjalimullany Anjali Mullany
Ok, tweet me if you were on the pedestrian lane of the Brooklyn Bridge yesterday, #occcupywallstreet people. Need to talk to you for article
1 hour ago

    nydailynews New York Daily News
 by anjalimullany
BROOKLYN BRIDGE ARRESTS: Protester says cop told her to leave, but she couldn't, she was trapped:

    I'm going to send her a link to this diary.


    •  Successful Contact Made Finally! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kat herder
      TheOther99 TheOther99
      @anjalimullany Hi, are you still trying to find participants who were arrested on Bklyn Bridge??
      9 hours ago
      in reply to ↑

      Anjali Mullany
      @TheOther99 yes sure, would like to hear as many people's account as possible
      4 hours ago via Twitter for iPad

      Herding cats is never easy.

      •  Key Info Needed (0+ / 0-)

        We need testimony, if not photo, video, audio evidence, of the following key pieces of information:

        1) What caused the march to stop at the entrance - when initially people were going over via the pedestrian route?  Was there a police blockade or a police order to halt the march (that was then lifted with a new route)?

        2) KEY: What were the officers (including with bullhorns - I can provide video if wanted) stating as the march resumed - now headed across via the vehicular lane.

  •  My advice is to defame no one (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345, chuckvw, War on Error

    and not do anything one ordinarily would not do or which one knows is illegal--no matter what others are doing--unless you are willing to be arrested.

    Ordinary political process is dead. The Supreme Court killed it. In Chambers. With a gavel.

    by Publius2008 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:29:56 PM PDT

  •  i forget the title (8+ / 0-)

    but i was watching a documentary that covered some of the student activism during the 60s and cointelpro.

    one photo of a meeting one of the groups held, researchers with FOIA documents in hand, later went back and IDed everyone. they realized the fbi moles outnumbered real activists in that room. twas an eye opener.

    smash the chair, bust the needle !

    by stolen water on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:37:35 PM PDT

  •  What provoked the police to give the warning (4+ / 0-)

    in the first place? Most of the march was on its way across the bridge on the footpath. What led them to believe a portion would start walking on the street?

    "...on the (catch a) human network. Cisco."

    by hoplite9 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:37:55 PM PDT

  •  this diary should be deleted (4+ / 0-)

    This is one of the worst kangaroo courts I've ever seen. These people have done nothing except stand up for us and you peope want to question their actions? You dare post their pictures while asking pointed questions without a fucking shred of any kind of evidence? WTF?

    We should be praising them. Go back and read the stupid comments on this thread. We should all be ashamed to partake in such ugly speculation about innocent people. This diary harms the movement more than those people in the pictures did.

    Is the diarist pure or does he/she want to harm the movement? Ok, I'll accept that perhaps the diarist is sincere but that doesn't make the smear any better does it? I've led many protests and movement actions and this shit is just pure ugly, take it down.

    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

    by cacamp on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:14:15 PM PDT

    •  You know, as a veteran of marchers and other (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      War on Error

      protest movements myself, I would feel better knowing that some people out there were looking at videos and raising questions that might lead to identifying agents provocateurs.

      Your criticism seems based on (1) an outdated notion that the police don't have great videos and the ability to sift them and (2) a notion that either agents provocateurs either don't exist or are nothing to worry about.  The solution is for people to ask legitimate questions and for those about whom the questions are asked not to be offended, but to explain to their peers what they were doing when.  Suspicion comes with prominence.  But suspicion is a far cry from being convicted of something.

      This kind of groupsourcing is exactly what we're good at.  The notion that we could be outing provocateurs must be giving agents fits.  Good!  And if that means that some have to endure some suspicion -- well, as you know from your own time in the movement, the suspicion is there anyway.  This just lets us hone in on who is continually around when Bad Things Happen.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 01:24:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that's just bull (0+ / 0-)

        as you can see from the comments your vaunted "groupsourcing" has come up with nada except ignorant harmful speculation. If that's what your "good at" it's a damn pity.

        And my leadership of protests does in fact inform me that suspicion is always there, which is why I know how distructive it is to a movement. What I'm concerned about is the public nature of doing this. I say if there are real concerns they should be followed up privately by those involved not a bunch of people who have no way of knowing the people involved and who might themselves harbor ulterior motives.

        You cavalerly say if innocent suffer that's ok. I disagree. I say these people are innocent and they deserve respect. Hell, no one has even decided if what they did was wrong or if they are indeed the cause of going onto the bridge. But you and others want to willy-nilly point fingers without anything to back up your suspicions except a fucking tatoo.

        Asking questions is fine but doing so in a public, accusatory, finger pointing way is wrong. It must be done by those on the scene not some lawyer in California or Timbuctoo. You prove my point by ascribing dumb and wrong speculations about what my "case" is based on, look back at your (1) and (2) points about me and you'll see how ignorant it is to falsely paint others you don't know shit about. It needs to stop. Now.

        America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

        by cacamp on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 10:34:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  700 protesters on a bridge are innocent. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane

          Did you interview all of them?

          Are no one else allowed to interview them?

          You cavalerly say if innocent suffer that's ok.

          700 protesters on the bridge are innocent. And they suffered.

          H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

          by Knarfc on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:20:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  wake up (0+ / 0-)

            none of them are complaining about the accused leaders, in fact many of them say the police misled them. When one goes to a protest you'd better be prepared to get arrested.

            But in your haste to ask dumb questions you missed the main point which is pointing fingers without any evidence is harmful to the movement. It distroys the unity needed to function and spreads paranoia until people won't trust each other. That's especially true when the fingers are pointed by outsiders putting up pictures on a blog with accusatory questions and zero evidence.

            America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

            by cacamp on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 04:58:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You're concerned about the "public nature" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          War on Error, kat herder

          of trying to assess whether someone is a agent provocateur.  So that means that it's better if it's private -- or if it's not done at all?  What do you want here?

          In my work with activist organizations I've argued that we have to assume that we could be infiltrated and that our task was to make sure that such infiltration wouldn't matter.  That is: we don't plan violence, we don't plan law-breaking other than non-violent civil disobedience that the authorities couldn't stop anyway.  It's much the same way as the notion that when you blog, you should write as if anything you wrote could end up in the newspaper -- so be ready to explain it.

          Everyone in an activist movement is "under suspicion" in a surveillance security state such as ours.  That's a given -- we gain nothing by pretending otherwise.  What we can do is render that suspicion relatively benign.  So you're suspected, so I'm suspected -- so what?  We repel suspicion through our actions.  We keep such inevitable suspicion from being destructive to movements by limiting the harm that can be done to us -- for example, by shunning window-breakers.

          What people are doing here is noting that some people acted, in prominent roles, in such a way that it contributed to the arrest of many people who didn't seek arrest.  Maybe they're just activists using people toward what they see as revolutionary ends -- if so, those who see them can now ask them about that and treat them accordingly.  If they're infiltrators, their usefulness just got reduced.  If they're just normal, peaceable activists who need a refresher course on "mic check" -- that's cool.  They don't need to feel persecuted and they don't need to suffer; on the flip side, others don't need to persecute them or to try to make them suffer.  They just need to recognize that if their actions repeatedly lead to problems for others, they'll be viewed with caution.

          Now, people know who they are and can ask them themselves what they are up to and what they want.  That's good.  You see it as an accusatory finger; it's not.  It's an invitation to talk, justify, and explain.  And if they do that well, they are more powerful and influential than before.

          You might say "but that's not the way it works!"  I say "we had better make it work that way."

          In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

          by Seneca Doane on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:26:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rec~~~ (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            War on Error, Seneca Doane

            I have a sense of where cacamp is coming from.  Been there.

            What I took from it was to assume that until I am known and trusted, I have to earn that trust.  And even still........

            I also took away from it to be conscious about how to place my trust.  I learned to base it on identity and judgement.  And even still........

            Hopefully those of us who have some "seasoning" can aid this movement, without sowing paranoia.  Still, it will remain messy.

            I think at this point the consensus is growing to hold NYPD accountable. That is becoming more clear.  And that is a good thing.

            I still plan to read your legal diary, but haven't gotten there yet.  :P


  •  They are protesters, not agents (6+ / 0-)

    The guy with the facial hair, who's got his arms linked with the girl in green and orange, is most definitely a legitimate protester.

    I recognize him from earlier protest vids. He's a charismatic speaker, so while this protest does not have designated leaders, I'm assuming he's someone people would be willing to follow. I can't find a link of him now, but he's definitely someone that's stood out on the youtube videos.

    What I've learned from my weekend at OccupyLA is that a leaderless movement has many factions. The group of people we're discussing here are most likely vocal activists who decided on their own to lead this charge.

    No matter, what, I think it was wrong of them to willingly lead people into breaking the law. No one should make that decision for people.

    •  See, this is the kind of productive comment (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      War on Error, hashby

      that asking these questions can elicit.  I hope to hear from people in NYC itself who may be able to vouch for some of these pics, or say "he's not a cop, he's a Trotskyite," or whatever.  Having been involved in marches, I feel safer knowing that others are trying to help weed out agents provocatuers.

      In my avatar, the blue bars show how many want Reps who COMPROMISE; the aqua bars show who wants Reps who STAND FAST no matter what. (Left=Overall; Center=Democrats; Right=Republicans.) And there's the problem!

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 01:17:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And how do we know YOU aren't a provocateur? (4+ / 0-)

    An old COINTELTPRO tactic was to accuse members of groups of being Agent Provacateurs to sow dissension and encourage paranoia in the ranks.

    Now, I don't really think War on Error is an Agent Provocateur, but he has no evidence that any of the people pictured above are anything other than overzealous demonstrators.

    This is the worst sort of rumor-mongering, hearsay and conjecture. And its counterproductive.

    "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

    by turthlover on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:29:00 PM PDT

    •  No, just a Grandma here with a big heart. (0+ / 0-)

      Who was moved to tears seeing the 13 year old girl not just arrested, but handcuffed.  It was that picture that pushed me to spend a few hours viewing vids and pics.

      And the question I posed in the title provided the option that those who led the Take the Bridge move might be Brave Leaders.

      I was raised by a mathematician/scienceguy to observe and question.

      But was also taught to seek the Right Question.  If we don't ask the right questions, we never will arrive at the right answers.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 07:38:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Real provocateurs shout insults, (2+ / 0-)

    throw rocks, "assault" cops, start fist fights with other protesters, and generally try to stir up real shit. This ain't it.

    Nolle prossed disorderly conduct charges are medals of honor. I have a couple of them. A few hours in jail with comrades is actually good for morale. Plus, it's great television.

    Believe me, if the occupy movement really takes hold, continues to spread, and threatens the status quo, far harsher things are going to happen.

    Having people on the ground with the experience to recognize undercover cops and other troublemakers will be essential going forward. Having elected marshals, or a marshal committee might help.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam - Washington isn't broken -- it's fixed.

    by chuckvw on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:02:11 AM PDT

  •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    white blitz

    Best to stay home, locked behind your four walls phonebanking for people to vote by mail.  Demonstratorsare  all evil villainous extreme left-wingers that want you to end up enslaved in a Stalinist gulag.

    "The existence of a good thing is no evidence of its being enjoyed by the working class." ~ Daniel DeLeon

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:06:41 AM PDT

  •  Who the REAL Snitches Are (6+ / 0-)

    a message on an IWW listserve:

    Yesterday, myself and several other Chicago wobs went to Occupy Chicago to show some solidarity. We really shouldn't have wasted our time, I'm sad to say.

    First, this is only my opinion. Second, from what I hear from Occupy Wall Street and others around the country, Chicago sounds like an isolated case.

    We get there, walked around, chanted a bit, you know the drill. Handed out some IWW lit, I read the statement from the GDC to the crowd, much applause. Around 6pm, the majority of the crowd marched off to Millennium Park for the General Assembly. We followed, and as their bullhorn was a piece of junk, I stood with the speakers so they could use my awesomely loud 55 watt horn and actually be heard. Cops made us leave claiming MP was closed, and sent us a couple blocks south to a large open area south of MP.

    The GA reconvened there. I was on the stack to read the GDC and IWW statements with FW Slavin to the crowd when I got a phone call from a FW who had walked back to her car after leaving MP. She had walked away alone, as it was only a couple blocks to where she parked. She had texted me shortly before to tell me that there was a car following her at a snails pace as she walked. When she called, she gave me the full story.

    As the car was following her, she stepped into a train station to be around other people. After waiting a little while, she walked out of the station and a plainclothes confronted her. He started asking her who she was, where she was going, who was she with, was she at the demo, etc. He had grabbed her phone to look through it, but it was locked. He demanded to see what her shirt said (her hoodie was zipped up), she refused to unzip it. At this point, he grabbed her zipper and opened her hoodie partway. He saw her IWW shirt, and said something like "Oh I see." He then grabbed at her again to open the hoodie completely and she started yelling. Pedestrians heard and started to turn and watch. The plainclothes dropped her phone and jumped into the waiting unmarked car, peeled out and turned the corner. She was very shaken up and understandably scared. She got to her car and headed home ASAP.

    I was given the chance to tell the crowd what had happened to our comrade. After I relayed the info, a couple Occupy Chicago people came up to me to talk. Several were NLG observers and one was a self-described "police liaison" named Joe. 20-something white kid, stereotypical hipster look (ironic jacket, bad mustache, cheesy glasses). He swore the cops said nothing had happened, and kept demanding the comrades name and phone number. I told him to sod off, he wasn't getting it because I didn't know him from Adam.

    Joe the police liaison then insisted that we don't tell anyone what happened to our comrade so we didn't "scare anyone". FW Haley from Chicago GMB called this kid out pretty well, asking him if he was serious that we not tell anyone that a woman walking alone was just grabbed by some dude who tried to forcibly unzip her jacket. He got defensive, but little did I know how defensive he would get.

    The FW who was assaulted also told me on the phone that paddywagons were headed in our direction; several of us decided that it was a good time to beat feet and leave. No sense getting arrested with a police snitch right with us.

    After we left, I got a phone call from FW Haley; Joe the police liaison was going around the crowd telling everyone that I was a provocateur or a fed, and not to trust me. OccupyChicago then put out over their twitter feed not to believe the guy who told the crowd about the assault (me!) and that I was likely a provocateur.

    FW Haley did an amazing job of standing up for her fellow workers and defending us against this badjacketing police informant. She called out his patriarchal "blame the victim" attitude (when he said the FW that was assaulted was lying), and his badjacketing in calling me and the others feds etc.

    An hour or two after we left, the twitter tags #occupychi and #occupychicago started getting hit with reports from people at the GA that the CPD admitted they'd stopped "one woman". It was now verified by the Chicago PD that our comrade wasn't a liar, but had in fact been stopped by undercover CPD cops. Despite this, Occupy Chicago refuses to issue an apology for calling us provocateurs and smearing the IWWs involved in this.

    Personally, fuck occupy chicago. They seem to have no idea how much damage calling someone a cop can do, much less saying that someone who was assaulted by cops is a liar. They refuse to apologize; neither has this Joe kid, their "police liaison", said anything to retract his smears.

    I hope you wobs around the country are having a better time at your Occupations than we had in Chicago yesterday. Because seriously, fuck occupy chicago and fuck this Joe police informant.

    p.s. if you know the name of the female FW I'm referring to in this email, keep it to yourself. She doesn't want to be publicly identified with this event, she's pretty shaken up and nervous.

    "The existence of a good thing is no evidence of its being enjoyed by the working class." ~ Daniel DeLeon

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:25:14 AM PDT

  •  Agent provocateur — recent actual example (5+ / 0-)

    People were shocked to discover that someone they had known as a friend for up to a decade was actually a police informer.

    UK Indymedia: Mark "Stone/Kennedy" exposed as undercover police officer

    Mark Kennedy article on Wikipedia:

    Mark Kennedy … (also known as Mark Stone and Flash) is a former Metropolitan Police officer who, whilst attached to the police service's National Public Order Intelligence Unit, infiltrated many protest groups between 2003 and 2010 before he was unmasked by political activists as an undercover policeman.

    The case against six activists accused of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass at Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station collapsed following the revelation of Kennedy's activities ….

    Danny Chivers, who was one of the six successful defendants in the case, said Kennedy was not just an observer, but an agent provocateur. "We're not talking about someone sitting at the back of the meeting taking notes — he was in the thick of it."

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

    by lotlizard on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:37:28 AM PDT

  •  By the standards set forward here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    One would have to assume that Joe Hill, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, John L. Lewis, Big Bill Haywood and Mother Jones were all police provocateurs.  I'm not buying it.

    "The existence of a good thing is no evidence of its being enjoyed by the working class." ~ Daniel DeLeon

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:43:16 AM PDT

  •  I just wanted to add another comment, (4+ / 0-)

    which is somewhat, though not entirely tangential to the idea of this diary, and equally or more relevant to some other OWS diaries (so I plan to make the same comment elsewhere)..

    There appears to be this ratio of ten in terms of the number of people reported to have been arrested at OWS over the past weeks. On the first Saturday, 7 to 8 were reported to have been arrested. One the next Saturday, the day of the now famous pepper spray incidents, I think 70 to 80 people were reported to have been arrested. At the Brooklyn Bridge, 700 to 800 (or more perhaps) were reported to have been arrested.

    H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

    by Knarfc on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 05:10:07 AM PDT

    •  My dad would have loved this observation. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Great eye/catch.

      So, we have a 1 to the ten power leap at each of these planned police arrests.  Can we look forward to 7,000 next time.  

      I think the same applies to those getting involved.  For each of these police actions, the number of those willing to come out and stand up increases, too.

      Sadly, arrests and violence get press, but the heartfelt stories of those who have been decimated by the corruption of the past decade are barely covered.

      I hope that will change soon.

      The media can choose to focus on the individual stores of pain and suffering of fellow citizens when the media chooses to ask

      "What are all these people so upset about?

      Then hand them a list of the top 10 grievances.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 07:56:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Breaking Good News (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive

    New York Daily News
    Monday, October 3rd 2011, 4:00 AM

    TWU blasts city for putting handcuffed Occupy Wall Street protesters on buses

    The Transport Workers Union will go to court Monday to try to stop the city from forcing bus drivers to transport Wall Street protesters arrested by the NYPD, the Daily News has learned.

    The union, whose leaders voted last week to support the protesters, said police brass commandeered three MTA buses to transport many of the 700 demonstrators arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday.

    Union President John Samuelsen called ordering bus drivers to drive prisoners "a blatant act of political retaliation."

  •  Anjali Posts Her Story NY Daily News (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error

    Wall Street protests: Daily News editor gives first-person account of chaos on Brooklyn Bridge

    Monday, October 3rd 2011, 4:00 AM

    I followed the protesters as they marched from Zuccotti Park to the Brooklyn Bridge and watched many of the arrests take place first-hand.
    Somehow, the march had been split, though I'm unclear where and by whom. At the foot of the bridge, protesters either chose to take the pedestrian or vehicular lanes, or they were guided by police on the bridge. Twenty-four hours later, I'm not sure which is the truth - or if it's a little bit of both.
    When I reached the bridge, the majority of the protest crowd was in the Brooklyn-bound vehicular traffic lane of the bridge. I followed them onto the vehicular lane, but I wanted a better view, so I climbed over the metal and concrete barrier between the vehicular lane and the pedestrian lane above.

    At that point, I could not see any cops and had not heard any of them tell protesters where to go. I've spoken to a number of protesters who claim they did not hear any instructions from police about where they should and should not go. This was curious to me because I have witnessed many of the protesters' marches through the Financial District during the past two weeks. During all of those events, and up until the point that Saturday's march reached the Brooklyn Bridge, cops on foot and on motorcycles guided the protesters, frequently telling them to stay on sidewalks and steering the course of the procession.
    I couldn't reach the railing, but after I shouted that I was with the Daily News, some of the protesters made way for me. I crawled on my hands and knees and found a space between some protesters' legs, where I had a great view of the arrests - but repeatedly had my head stomped on.
    There is a great deal of rumor and suspicion among the protesters. On Saturday night in Zuccotti Park, I heard all sorts of speculation - that police provocateurs had led the protesters to their demise, for example. Another protester claimed "none of us" recognized the protesters at the front of the march. But other protesters told me they felt they were making tactical mistakes when choosing protest locations, mistakes that have led to mass arrests.
    Nothing much happens during the protesters' twice-daily marches around sidewalks in lower Manhattan, accompanied by cops. Little happens as they protest in Zuccotti Park - occasionally cops come in and pull down tarps and projectors, something I suspect the NYPD will do even more as the weather gets rougher and the protesters need more protection.

    What sets off mass arrests and drama is when protesters venture out of their normal routines - and off the sidewalks, into parks and streets. I knew protesters planned to march to the bridge - that was a pre-planned destination - and I suspected arrests would take place.

    I never imagined more than 700 people would be arrested. Nor did I imagine that I'd be kettled in an area where, ostensibly, protesters and witnesses were allowed to go.

    This is a nice long detailed article I encourage everybody to read.


  •  Our friend Guardian UK weighs in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error

    They are so on top of this:

    Posted by
    Matt Wells Monday 3 October 2011 12.31 EDT

    Occupy Wall Street – the story of the Brooklyn Bridge 'trap'

    More than 700 people were arrested in an Occupy Wall Street march across Brooklyn Bridge in New York on Saturday. Here, those who were arrested tell their story.
    On Sunday, we asked people who had been arrested on Brooklyn Bridge to get in touch. So far, we have received about 25 first-hand accounts from people who were arrested.

    They tell a similar story: of confusion at the division between the pedestrian walkway and the traffic lanes on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge, of apparent police acquiescence to the march proceeding into the traffic lanes, of shock when it became clear the police intended to arrest everyone on the bridge, and then of hours of confusion in police precincts across the city as overworked police officers struggled to process a huge volume of arrests.
    One protester, who asked not to be named, said: "A small group decided spontaneously to 'take the bridge' and invited other people to join. The police pretended to give warnings but didn't act physically in order to stop the protesters."

    Some have suggested these breakaway leaders may have been "agents provocateurs". What is clear is that the march had now divided, and the hundreds of protesters bringing up the rear had no indication that walking onto the bridge would lead them to be arrested.
    I'll update this post later, with details of the confusion at police precincts around New York City

  •  I remain dubious. (0+ / 0-)

    There are far too many links in the comments at this time that many can safely claim to have seen more than a fraction.

    I am not on the bus, yet.

  •  Democracy Now! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error, Knarfc
    Liberty & Broadway, Lower Manhattan
    Amy Goodman & Sharif Abdel Kouddous Announce Major Settlement in Federal Lawsuit Over 2008 RNC Arrests in St. Paul/Minneapolis.

    700 Arrested on Brooklyn Bridge

    We host a roundtable discussion with Marisa Holmes, an organizer with the main organizing group of Occupy Wall Street, called the General Assembly, Marina Sitrin, an attorney who is part of Occupy Wall Street’s legal working group, and Laurie Penny, a writer and journalist who reported on protests in London earlier this summer [Transcript to come. Check back soon.]
  •  Guardian UK Story Expands to Cover Post-Arrests (0+ / 0-)

    Including Kossack Eggman's story
    Occupy Wall Street – the story of the Brooklyn Bridge 'trap'
    Matt Wells has been collecting first-hand stories.  He just posted a number of stories about what happened after people were arrested.

    Eggman's story is included, including a link to his diary.

    The stories don't do much to add to NYPD's integrity profile.

  •  Deja Vu all over again. (0+ / 0-)

    I remember the campus rioting in April of 1970 - think Kent State. Something similar occurred on the Ohio State campus Oval - a mass protest that ended in mass arrests. I barely escaped being collared myself, and I still have the stench of tear gas in my nostrils from that day.

    I can't say whether provocateurs - perhaps working for the police - were operating here. But it happens.

    It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Fish in Illinois on Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 08:15:37 AM PDT

  •  This Diary is Inappropriate (0+ / 0-)

    War On Error, as much as I love you, this diary is bad news.

    I have had seven people - seven - people that I trust come up to me today and mention this diary. "We're the daily kos guys" is one of the things we've been saying. They're asking if we wrote this, and begging us to take it down. They're telling us that they know the protesters involved.

    Both HankNYNY and myself have been accused of being cops. This diary is feeding paranoia that we've been fighting very very hard to combat.

    The Battle of Brooklyn Bridge is what brought this movement national media attention. It's what caused TWU Local 100 to sue the NYPD in federal court to prevent them from using MTA busses for the transportation of arrestees.

    These people aren't spies or rubes hired by shady characters.

    They're heroes.

    Please either correct your diary or remove their photos.

    You're scaring people.

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