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Congratulations to India, where labor and business costs have risen enough that American companies are transferring their call-center work elsewhere:
Some Indian companies have tried to adjust by hiring less-expensive workers from small Indian towns or switching to high-end back-office work, including paralegal services, accounting and education.

But in the past three years, 13 Indian call-center companies have set up large offices in the Philippines and have trained and hired local workers, according to the National Association of Software and Service Companies.

“The growth in the Philippines is also being driven, to a large extent, by Indian outsourcing companies that are setting up operations there,” said Sangeeta Gupta, the association’s senior vice president.

Call-center work for Indian companies, like that "high-end back-office work," is still located in India. At least until the never-ending race to the bottom sends much of that to the Philippines, too. But when that happens, India should take heart in the fact that the U.S., after losing so many jobs to cheaper labor elsewhere, eventually itself became a source of cheap labor and got some jobs back.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 07:35 AM PDT.

Also republished by ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (139+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador, Getreal1246, Mike08, boadicea, MartyM, gchaucer2, JamieG from Md, jnhobbs, Mote Dai, terabytes, kat68, IndieGuy, Vita Brevis, jabney, Greyhound, Tam in CA, concernedamerican, We Won, porchdog1961, Ekaterin, Gowrie Gal, mofembot, Unit Zero, PatriciaVa, offgrid, SoCaliana, dsb, drewfromct, J M F, Its a New Day, Odysseus, Lujane, G2geek, CTPatriot, Keone Michaels, Thinking Fella, Mr Robert, Statusquomustgo, Unknown Quantity, northsylvania, DRo, fixxit, coquiero, xylonjay, KibbutzAmiad, LaughingPlanet, history first, dibsa, snazzzybird, anodnhajo, blueoasis, appledown, Powered Grace, ER Doc, Shockwave, Preston S, thenekkidtruth, asterkitty, onemadson, sleipner, Ex Con, gatorcog, icebergslim, Jill, boran2, cyncynical, DEMonrat ankle biter, barbwires, Jean Sloan, SadieSue, real world chick, millwood, Empower Ink, jgilhousen, Clues, divineorder, MKSinSA, SeaTurtle, djMikulec, Jim R, basquebob, reginahny, AllisonInSeattle, roystah, fromer, mrkvica, nupstateny, mygreekamphora, pfiore8, Trotskyrepublican, Hayate Yagami, greenbastard, UncleCharlie, luckydog, MI Sooner, zerelda, camlbacker, reflectionsv37, highacidity, Ckntfld, joe shikspack, ljb, SaintC, ColoTim, FogCityJohn, bablhous, shaharazade, Marie, maybeeso in michigan, mikeconwell, BarackStarObama, ferment, CA Nana, Keori, MNGrandma, science nerd, revsue, AnnieR, Into The Woods, a2nite, ctsteve, BobBlueMass, janl1776, defluxion10, IT Professional, WaltK, kait, jstrick, Oh Mary Oh, prettygirlxoxoxo, Egalitare, dkmich, Its any one guess, fotyc, Book of Hearts, liberalej, gneissgirl, Mistral Wind, Matt Z
    •  UAW also contributing to cheap labor (5+ / 0-)

      Have any of you seen how much a new autoworker at GM, Ford or Chrysler will earn?  Based on a search a couple of weeks ago, a new non-union hire at Honda in the South will earn more than a new hire at GM!!!!!

      If I were a second tier worker at GM, I would refuse to pay any union dues.  There is absolutely no excuse for how the UAW negotiated the last series of contracts.  If they had any pride in their work, the entire UAW leadership would resign en masse.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

      by PatriciaVa on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:38:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have a hard time taking you seriously (5+ / 0-)

        when you have a broken link to a Robert Rubin project in your signature.

        Why don't YOU learn about Centrist Economics?
        http://www.pbs.org/...

        •  It's not about Me..... (0+ / 0-)

          ...It's about the awful job the UAW did in negotiating awful contracts.

          It's as if the UAW has resigned itself to mediocrity.  And if it has, why not disband?  

          Is there really a need for the UAW when a new hire at Toyota Kentucky earns about the same or more than a new hire at GM Detroit?

          And you can't argue that GM or Ford aren't thriving.  

          Very similar to the case at Harley Davidson, where about one year ago, even as Harley thrived, the union agreed to a seven-year wage freeze - in effect, an inflation-adjusted wage decline.

          At GM and Ford, why didn't the UAW at least try to peg the pay the CFO to no more than 15x the pay of a new hire?

          Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

          by PatriciaVa on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:05:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Did The Union Get Health Care, OT, Vacation, (15+ / 0-)

            sick pay, job security, safety equipment, training benefits?  

            Since the union members reviewed and ratified (or not) the package, it's not reasonable to condemn the union or their leaders on the basis of a simple wage comparison for entry-level workers.

            •  They got jobs back from Mexico and China... (0+ / 0-)

              They got the lower tier raises.  They got every one else a bigger piece of the profits through profit sharing.  Not bad out of a companies that were bankrupt.

              Yes we can, but he won't.

              by dkmich on Wed Oct 19, 2011 at 02:37:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  It is about you, sorry, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            divineorder, Ivan, electricgrendel

            since I have no reason to take your conclusions on faith.

          •  Maybe it's because Obama sent a criminal (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Marie, scorpiorising

            to shut them down if they didn't agree to these terms.

            You know, an Occam's razor type explanation for what happened . . . .

            •  The facts are that at least 1 plant.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              scorpiorising, drewfromct

              .....rejected the UAW-negotiated contract, it barely passed nationwide, and then only because the UAW begin to leak to the press that a strike was inevitable.

              Instead of leaking, "we're aware that many of our members are unhappy with the contract, and we well renegotiate", the UAW leaks, "Prepare for a strike", so as to scare a "Yes" vote.

              There is no excuse for such a lousy contract.  The UAW has morphed into the typical Mexican union.  Every year, it negotiates a mediocre contract for the rank and file.  And every year, the union claims it's the best it can do.

              Frankly, I'm surprised that so many Kossacks support the UAW's "efforts".  If a non-union shop had imposed such a draconian contract, many of you'd be up in arms.  If a Republican governor had imposed this contract, you'd be marching in the state capitol.

              But because it's the UAW, you support it??!!!

              Workers at Ford Motor Co.'s Torrence Avenue plant have overwhelmingly rejected a proposed labor contract that would add 1,100 jobs to the facility.
              ....

              But other workers rejected the contract because of how the union leaders sold the deal to them.

              “The actual contract has become secondary to the fact that the membership really (didn't) appreciate the scare tactics,” said one Local 551 member, referring to the strike talks. “If the contract was even marginally good, the approach, the professionalism and the salesmanship of our elected leaders was something that lacked immensely."

              Read more: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/...
              Stay on top of Chicago business with our free daily e-newsletters

              Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

              by PatriciaVa on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 12:07:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You don't think that the Wall Street Liquidator (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PatriciaVa, shaharazade

                Steve Rattner had anything to do with their behavior?

                I'd be shocked if things are otherwise.

                •  Rattner and The One that Got Away (0+ / 0-)

                  Don't let me get started on Steve Rattner....

                  http://dealbook.nytimes.com/...

                  “I know Steve pretty well; I’ve had dinner at his house; we’ve had good conversations; our kids have played together. He also is lucky that he’s not going to jail.”

                  – Joe Klein of Time Magazine

                  Arbusto was many things, but at least he went after his friends, as he showed when his Justice Department got a conviction against "Kenny Boy" and Jeffrey Skilling (both of Enron).

                  President Obama refused to go after financial wrongdoing of his car czar.

                  Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

                  by PatriciaVa on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 12:17:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Most traditional business unions are old (as in (4+ / 0-)

        the membership and leadership are older people) and undemocratic.  Older workers and staffers get entrenched and look out for their own personal interests, instead of the interests of the entire workforce.

        Hence, when it comes to crunch time at contract negotiations, selling out younger/newer workers in order to keep the benefits for older workers is a common occurrence.  That's the far easier route for graying officers thinking about retirement and staffers who just want a contract no matter what than actually fighting with management to keep or expand benefits for everyone.

        It is a shame and a disgrace.  It is the result of nearly eight decades of labor law that has completely taken the fight out of unions and turned them into the pitiful husks most of them are today.

        The IWW has a far better model for unions.  One that has no paid staff, is run democratically and focuses on direct action and solidarity to make things better for workers.  And with this model, the ultimate aim is to get rid the bosses altogether and run things for ourselves.  Remember, the bosses need us, but we don't need them.

        Between excessive citizen activism and excessive trust or passivity, the former is far preferable to the latter. - Glenn Greenwald

        by An Affirming Flame on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 12:48:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lower wages in the US were inevitable (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dkmich, An Affirming Flame

          with the passage of "free" trade agreements, wto, etc.  That is what those agreements were all about.  Any job that can be exported will be exported and domestic wages will be driven down accordingly.  The solution would seem to be "one big union--worldwide."   Sound familiar? It is good  to see that the wobblies are re-emerging.

          I'm truly sorry Man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union--Robert Burns

          by Eric Blair on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:29:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Endless pursuit of the cheapest possible labor (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fotyc

            is a never-ending downward spiral that benefits only those at the top of the corporate pyramid... not even the stockholders benefit much anymore as the money seems to go to the executives.

            'Free trade' has been a disaster for the West.  It is NOT a level playing field and has been economic suicide for western democracies - but then multinational corporations could care less about such things.

            Corporate America makes it near impossible for shareholders to oppose management on anything now - so the 'hired help' ends up writing themselves nice compensation package agreements and sweetheart golden parachutes.

            The new Nomenklatura looks out for each other - you serve on my board and I serve on yours.   Compensation Committees are a joke.  A friend got bumped off one when he had the audacity to question how meeting 50% of stated goals merited ANY bonus.   He hasn't been asked to serve on any since then.

            Those at the top seem to feel that serfdom - or outright slavery is a model worth pursuing.

      •  well, they did kind of Bankrupt GM last time (0+ / 0-)

        Well, the tried to be tough last time with GM and Chryler and look how that turned out.

      •  Do you expect them to strike companies that (0+ / 0-)

        got US loans?   I can hear the recriminations flying around about those damn autos and unions.  Do you remember how hard they had to beg and how much DC enjoyed humiliating them throughout the process?  

        They forced the autos to bring jobs back to the US from China and Mexico.   They got the lower tier raises, and they got everyone else a bigger piece of the profits.  Profit sharing is definitely the way to go.  Hard for a company to complain about a 1x pay out when they're rolling in cash.   The UAW saved the autos as much as the taxpayers.   You are totally off base with your criticism.  

        Yes we can, but he won't.

        by dkmich on Wed Oct 19, 2011 at 02:36:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Tracey Ullman had an awesome skit (14+ / 0-)

      in her State of the Union show where she was a call center person in the deep south answering tech support calls from people in India...I laughed my ass off.  

      Couldn't find a link offhand...

      New favorite put-down: S/he's as dumb as a flock of Sarah Palins

      by sleipner on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:07:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clearly India's Fault! (17+ / 0-)

    After all, with their militant unions that do nothing but protect bad workers and collect union dues, communist-liberal social policies, inflationary wage demands, bilious class warfare, Indian workers have no one to blame but themselves for pricing themselves out of a competitive world economy!

    Wait...inaccurate and inapplicable right-wing trope causing seizure...worldview shot through with logical, conceptual, factual holes...danger! Danger Will Robinson...Daisy, Daisy....mdh;dshbnn...

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara

    by Remember Ludlow 1914 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 07:49:29 AM PDT

    •  The worm (5+ / 0-)

      The worm turns is an old adage.  

      In the meantime, how much is Jack Welch (former GE CEO) collecting for taking millions of jobs outside the US?  

      I also thank the one who rearranged deck chairs on the Titanic so those on board ship could get a better view of the iceberg.

      by NyteByrd1954 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:38:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Think of the US companies counting on the Middle (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ahumbleopinion, fotyc

      class of India to replace the lost purchasing power of the dwindling and stagnant Middle Class of America.

      What will they do now that the self-reinforcing downward spiral (aka 'race to the bottom') that ignores the connection between wages-purchasing power-demand has made another turn around the global screw?

      Maybe the Middle Class consumers in India will be able to buy their stuff cheaper if it's made somewhere else and that will allow them to continue to purchase things that are similar to what they did when they too were employed at a relatively decent wage.

      Maybe the Middle Class of India can be lured into going head-over-heels in debt by inflated house values, easy credit and low initial interest rates so that they stretch that consumption level out even further.

      It's been tried before.

      Thing is, it doesn't last very long and it ends rather badly.

      Someone in a very expensive suit is at the front door and says he wants to foreclose on our democracy. Where should I tell him he can put his robosigning pen?

      by Into The Woods on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:13:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I thought the Phillipines had higher labor costs.. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli, Mote Dai, Odysseus, Bronxist, forester

    ...than India.  That's the only sense in which this story surprises me.

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 07:51:16 AM PDT

  •  "wanted: english speakers who will work for (26+ / 0-)

    nothing - must be willing to call themselves 'scott' or 'brad'"

    Kick a "job creator" in the balls today!

    by memofromturner on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:00:25 AM PDT

  •  I live this, working for a F500 company (31+ / 0-)

    that has been doing this for several years ( and waiting for my turn to come).  We've degraded our internal operations to the point of it being meaningless but on paper, it's "cost effective". Just not so in reality as work is hidden, shadow staffs emerge, highly paid people are doing work that's been offshored so we're paying two people for the same work. And this is not call center work. This is analytical work. You know...those white collar jobs?

    The Phillipines will become too expensive and then they'll go somewhere else and eventually we'll become the cheapest because we'll have displaced all the Americans who once did these jobs and people will be desperate to work for 1/4 of what they once earned.

    I'm two faced. I hate this and yet I'm stuck in the vortex with a kid in college.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:01:42 AM PDT

    •  White collar work can now be exported (34+ / 0-)

      Don't kid yourself.

      Democrats for the longest time, the 70s, flipped the bird to blue collar workers as their white collar, college educated base was OK, and you know, to hell with those rednecks.  

      The thing is, your degree is worthless.  You have two masters, so what?  I can find someone who has two masters who will do it for less than half of what you do.  Granted, they aren't in America, but with all the great technology they are on the company WAN, their files and work can be shared in real time, and they don't need to be in the US.

      That's what seems to be panicking the people who's jobs are safe.  They aren't.  Technology has made the world a lot smaller of a place.  So you aren't competing with just another American for that nice white collar job, you're competing with Indians, Chinese, everybody on the globe.  

      I've seen a lot of that where I am.  We do global health work.  It was once a ton of people with post graduate degrees in the US.  The jobs pay well and people were flown all over the place.  Granted, the "jet setting bleeding heart wasting tax payer money" stereotype was true, and I completely agreed with closing off that end of it.  But what also happened is we ended up hiring tons of people outside of the US at vastly deflated salaries with next to no benefits at all.  And while that may seem "bad", it's really not.  It works just as well as they can VPN their files to the network shares and video conferencing equipment makes them just as good as being in the office.

      The end result is a paring down of DC operations to just a few big wigs that need to be here for close contacts to the Hill, STATE, and other major DC donors, a system replicated like that in Geneva and other areas, and then not much else.  To the point where people with ivy league masters are scrambling to compete for coffee pouring positions, to which the value has now bottomed out as you get 20 applicants for each one.

      And here is the thing, those jobs are NOT coming back, ever.  In fact, as technology improves even more jobs are going to be cut.

      The fact is, and nobody is saying it, is that Information Technology has removed the need to actually have workers in US offices.  And that pandoras box can never be closed again.  If it wasn't for the fact that someone physically had to upgrade servers and the lot here, I wouldn't have a job, they'd just remote it.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:16:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damned if you do, damned if you don't. (7+ / 0-)

      Classic conundrum, isn't it?

      And too many people who are hurt by these policies insist on mocking the OWS protesters.  Tragic.

      "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

      by IndieGuy on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:29:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not these policies but a lack of policy (18+ / 0-)

        Look, your jobs are gone and they aren't coming back.  That's it, end of story.  Someone will do the manufacturing working 16 hours a day in a labor camp with no protections for 2 bucks a day.  They can't sue when they get cancer and the waste is just going to be dumped into the local river.  And those savings are so vast, that transporting the goods back here is pennies in comparison.

        Even if you get an education those jobs are going as well.  I can configure and ship off a laptop fairly cheaply.  Once it arrives in our African or Asian office I can remotely fix any issues for the person and all their work is uploaded in real time to our network.  Due to VOIP and video conferencing there is no phone long distance charges at all.  Free phone and video conferencing is easy for a mere 15k investment in that office.  That money is instantly saved because instead of paying 80k for a person with a masters in the US, it will be well under 30k US for a person there with the same credentials.

        There are no policies that protect us from this.  The "saved" money is simply landed in corporate coffers and executive bonuses.

        The only way out of this is through aggressive taxation that is used to create jobs in the US via the government.  Jobs in infrastructure, science, research, whatever.  These jobs either have to require the person live in the US, ie to build a bridge in Detroit people have to physically live in Detroit, or are protected via security clearance or other government demands that you must be a US citizen.  Hence why the defense industry is actually pretty good science and high tech work for US citizens.

        But unless that money is forceably taken through taxes and invested back into the country, the only jobs we will have left will be working at retail, fast food, or cleaning toilets.

        That's the sort of jobs plan we need.  And it just isn't happening, because no company is going to want to let those precious bucks they saved by sending your job to India be taken from them and plunked down into a job here.

        "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

        by overclocking on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:43:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did the overlords (10+ / 0-)
          Someone will do the manufacturing working 16 hours a day in a labor camp with no protections for 2 bucks a day.
          of the 1% ever stop to wonder who will be left to buy anything when nobody is paid enough to obtain food, shelter, and basic clothing?

          How many of the barefoot Vietnamese girls sewing Nikes can afford to buy a pair?

          It's the same for any other product. This is why the economy collapsed in 1929 and again in 2008. Lack of jobs means lack of wages leading to lack of sales.

          Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

          by drewfromct on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:56:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes and no (13+ / 0-)

            For one do you really think it actually costs say apple $400 to make an iphone?  It doesn't.  None of the junk you buy actually costs that much to make.  Take a trip to say China or anywhere and Asia and get a good hilarious laugh at what things cost there compared to what hey cost here in the US.

            Same rule applies to your Nikes.

            I think all business are acutely aware that if America, which is the cash cow, dries up and stops buying things are going to get nasty.  Which is why we keep getting force fed credit cards to keep purchasing.  There is also the innate logic of "well, crap, someone else can hire an American and lose that profit and he can buy my stuff", which worked while we farmed out the manufacturing.

            So while it's not sustainable in the long run, a mix of credit cards and relying on other business to supply the Americans to buy things has worked pretty well for the past 30 or so years.

            You should also pay attention to the frantic investment in BRICs countries and other "growing economies" that are turning into cash cows.

            The current system is monstorously nasty and harsh on people.  About the best thing you can say is that it is raising global incomes somewhat, but that's at the expense of incomes in Western and other advanced nations.

            Maybe given a long enough time frame global incomes will all equalize and this won't be an issue.  But that does nothing about the utter devastation happening to people today.

            Personally I like that places like China, Brazil, India are getting a middle class, and that's a great thing.  And I don't think anybody objects to that, was frustrating as hell is when the difference in price for that middle class is just going into some fat cats back pocket and someone here is kicked to the street.

            "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

            by overclocking on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:09:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Contrast that (7+ / 0-)
              So while it's not sustainable in the long run, a mix of credit cards and relying on other business to supply the Americans to buy things has worked pretty well for the past 30 or so years.
              with the wingnuts' fetish for blaming underpaid consumers for taking on too much debt so they can all have flat-screen TVs.

              If I were playing a drinking game in which I had to take a drink every time I encountered an example of conservative hypocrisy or outright cognitive dissonance, I'd have died of cirrhosis over a decade ago.

              Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

              by drewfromct on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:29:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Nasty, British, and Short. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              divineorder, bablhous
              That money is instantly saved because instead of paying 80k for a person with a masters in the US, it will be well under 30k US for a person there with the same credentials.

              Hey, you can hire an English person for that, and they speak English.

              "Bootstraps are a fine invention as long as they are attached to boots." blueoasis

              by northsylvania on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:34:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Today's CEOs will be dead (8+ / 0-)

            before this all comes home to roost, so they don't care.  Most leaders of publicly traded corporations can't (or won't) see past the next quarter's earnings report.  There is no planning and no accountability, only profit.

        •  That only works (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sarenth

          when there's an infrastructure that can support it, and when your equipment and people aren't going to be stolen or killed, or both.

          If there's no electricity to power those devices, no communications infrastructure to carry the conversations and files, no delivery services to get the computer and things to them - nothing will get done.

          And you also assume that there's a ready pool of labor that is educated enough to even USE the devices, and speaks English.

          Those jobs didn't go to India 25 yrs ago, because India couldn't do them 25 yrs ago. They don't go to Somalia now, because Somalians can't do them.

          It takes more than just giving a population a bunch of computers for professional jobs to be shipped somewhere.

    •  How well did the 13th Amendment work? (8+ / 0-)
      I hate this and yet I'm stuck in the vortex with a kid in college.
      Back in the 80's, I knew a high ranking official at the FAA. He was African-American and, at the time, at the vanguard of A-A mobility, a real Cliff Huxtable.  

      He once remarked to me over cocktails that slavery hadn't really gone away, but had just morphed from its 18th C. chattel form.  By breaking out and moving up, he found he had simply enslaved himself to his property and his job and that while he was ostensibly a free man, his bank and his employer were nevertheless his true masters.

      Of course the horrors of chattel slavery bear no real comparison to him and me soaking in his backyard pool during the Reagan Administration, slurping cocktails and whining about the oppression of our true free selves by our cruel lives as executives and professionals. Nevertheless, your plight highlights a fundamental flaw of pure capitalism as espoused by our right wing opponents: Capital is easily portable. Jobs, for labor, mostly are not. This inherently tilts the economic playing field in favor of owners and against workers. Safeguards like collective bargaining, fair labor standards, tenure and other regulatory innovations are essential instruments meant to help balance the inequity. The predictable result of a generation of Republican policies weakening these institutions has been Banana Republic style income inequality in the USA and record unemployment.  

      Bumpersticker: GOP. Cheering Death. Booing Soldiers. Join Us.

      by LeftOfYou on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:53:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Neal Stephenson nailed it in Snow Crash (6+ / 0-)
      As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. When it gets down to it -- talking trade balances here -- once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider prosperity -- y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else:

      music
      movies
      microcode (software)
      high-speed pizza delivery


      Frankly, we're already falling behind in the software, and I'm not feeling great about the music.

      And if the Blue Sky Mining Company won't come to my rescue, if the sugar refining company won't save me, who's gonna save me?

      by Geenius at Wrok on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:18:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Been there, done that. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bablhous

      Lost my job to it.

      We've degraded our internal operations to the point of it being meaningless but on paper, it's "cost effective". Just not so in reality as work is hidden, shadow staffs emerge, highly paid people are doing work that's been offshored so we're paying two people for the same work.

      Sounds too damned familiar.

  •  It's completely logical. People in Philippines (5+ / 0-)

    need jobs as well. The same with manufacturing going from China to even cheaper countries.

  •  Talking with my boss, he's brought on some (18+ / 0-)

    offshore developers in India for projects before. He says they're 1/3rd the cost, but it takes 3 of them to get the same quality of work as one person in the US so he doesn't use them anymore. Of course, the bean counters don't see it that way. They see it as they can replace an employee with an outsourced one that's a third of the cost, and don't think about the consequences - lower quality work and takes longer to complete the same tasks. They're not forward thinking - they think about the present, and in the present, they're cheaper. They don't think about the long run.

    I have to work with some offshored employees at my job, and they are the most incompetent people you've ever met. I'm not sure if it's a language barrier, schools over there aren't as good, or whatever contracting company they work for goes for the bottom of the barrel and they're rejects from better companies. But there is no way in hell my employer is saving money by hiring them instead of Americans.

    TEABAGGER: Totally Enraged About Blacks And Gays Getting Equal Rights

    by yg17 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:32:31 AM PDT

  •  Ha, so now they are stabbing India in the backs (9+ / 0-)

    Yep, welcome to globalization.  All ships are rapidly sinking as money concentrates in the 1% hands at the expense of the entire planet.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:36:15 AM PDT

  •  Next they'll be training monkey, and then (6+ / 0-)

    it'll be The Planet of the Apes!

    Our government... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. Louis D. Brandeis

    by Lily O Lady on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:41:58 AM PDT

    •  They use robots (12+ / 0-)

      to build cars. We've all seen that on tv.

      One thing that nobody's ever seen or ever will see is a robot rolling into a showroom to buy one. And the same holds true for exploited Asians who make $2 a day.

      We need to bring back tariffs. Massive, punitive tariffs on all goods and services imported from  countries that refuse to meet or exceed American standards for the protection of workers, consumers, and the environment. No unions, no imports. No OSHA, no imports. No EPA, no imports. No CPA, no imports.

      We don't do ourselves any favors by trading with countries that undercut us in every way possible. It's long past time to end the Race To The Bottom.

      Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

      by drewfromct on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:02:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you get a call center employee from another (9+ / 0-)

    country, politely ask to be transferred to someone inside the US.  That's how you gets some of those jobs back.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:52:14 AM PDT

  •  Darn. The few times I've been forced to phone Dell (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caelian, Sarenth

    for tech support, I've enjoyed talking with the folks in India. In fact, one young man recommended to me a highly-acclaimed fictional depiction of the India / Pakistan partition originally written as a novel, made into a film, and now available for viewing online, part one starting here: http://video.google.com/...

    Okay, it's mostly in Hindi, but ....

    The last Dell tech I talked with was actually Mexican, working in Montreal and stressing over the difficulty of learning French.

    It's a small world after all.

    Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

    by RJDixon74135 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:56:11 AM PDT

    •  in india, was it Mobar? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RJDixon74135

      he's really into film.  we talk for hours about film.  he's usually on from around 9pm pst.  

      Je travaille, tu travailles, il travaille, nous travaillons, ils profitent --- I work, you work, he works, we work, they profit.

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:03:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm. I don't remember his name, but (1+ / 0-)

        that isn't ringing any bell. Nevertheless, a pleasant and helpful tech. I actually opened the conversation by asking  him how faithful to history he believes Midnight's Children to be. He didn't say that it's inaccurate, but he was quick to recommend something else. I'm sorry to see the Dell crew in India lose their jobs.

        Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

        by RJDixon74135 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 12:39:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  bank call centers (13+ / 0-)

    I think it is amazing that US banks can legally place call centers outside US.  The idea that sensitive financial information of US citizens is available outside the US has always been baffling to me.

    •  Hahaha! (0+ / 0-)

      If you only knew what happens to your sensitive financial information when you're not looking....

      I'm currently working on a project (US based, for a US company) where we are outsourcing all payment processing (e.g., your credit card and/or ACH information) through an outside company.  Which happens to be in Denmark.  Which means -- my company doesn't actually see your financial information.  But the company in Denmark stores the information in their databases.

      Which actually aren't physically located in Denmark at all.  They are in Lithuania.

  •  I have to laugh (through the tears)... (14+ / 0-)

    My best friend works for a high tech company in the US that manages corporate networks. They've outsourced some of their phone support to India and my friend has traveled their a couple times to train their workers.

    We were talking yesterday and he told me he's getting sent to the Phillipines next month. I'm like WTF? He tells me that some of their call center work was being moved to the Phillipines. Now I know the backstory. Unbelievable.

    Profits before people. Always and forever. It's no longer just the American way.

  •  Those jobs will be back in the U.S.A. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LamontCranston, OhioNatureMom, Matt Z

    Just as soon as the standard of living falls so low that America will become a source of "cheap labor."

    By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -George carlin

    by shutter1972 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:28:29 AM PDT

  •  This was absolutely not a surprise (links) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    divineorder, OhioNatureMom

    This was already happening in China. Businesses were relocating to the western interior in order to lower production costs (i.e. wages). What's interesting is that the Chinese government is encouraging this business migration.

    http://www.rieti.go.jp/...

    http://www.lexisnexis.com/...

    'We can make the trains run on time but if they are not going where we want them to go, why bother?' Neil Postman

    by history first on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:28:52 AM PDT

  •  Not buying from companies that outsource everythin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, bablhous

    Last night I had it.  I was having a problem with a Dell order and I was transferred to India.  I don't hold anything against these people in the call centers.  They are just trying to make a living to provide for their own families.  
    I just have the option and I'm not buying from companies that outsource everything.  

    I know, I know, it is almost impossible to completely get away from that.  It seems like 90+% of everything I buy is made in China.  I do get to make certain decisions.  As an example, Apple doesn't outsource any of their call centers.  I have always had fantastic support from Apple.  

    I don't like the Mac OS, so I'll buy the computer/laptop and wipe the OS and put Windows on it.  But their support for hardware is truly top notch.

    I buy from local farmers markets and independent stores when ever possible.  I just can't deal with outsourcing anymore.

  •  Fact check, please! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LamontCranston, divineorder

    Headline says that American companies are moving call centers from India to Philippines. This item, and the WashPost story that on which it is based, fails to same a single American company that moved a call center.

    Jeez, things are bad enough without having to make shit up.

    •  If it's not true now, it will be (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bablhous, Egalitare

      I agree with the sentiment though, sometimes it seems like facts are only required when it's someone you don't agree with.

      However, even if it's only one company, it's only a matter of time before India succumbs to the same fate as the developed nations. As India becomes richer and they demand better wages, workers in other countries will be able to do the job for less than an indian worker. This will repeat itself until workers in the US and europe become so poor that it's cheaper to hire them than someone in a place that's currently at the bottom of the list.

      •  Could be we're already close... (0+ / 0-)

        to that point.

        There are actually a lot of call centers still in the US.

        It would be interesting to know if the trend to outsourcing the centers to India is slowing down since the US now has an abundance of cheap English-speaking labor.

    •  Not stated but implied in article (0+ / 0-)
      The Philippines earns about $5 billion annually from call centers and will soon cater to the back-office operations of the pharmaceutical and health-care industries, according to the A.T. Kearney Global Services Location Index 2011, which rates business-friendly countries for the services industry....

      The loss of business from U.S. companies, however, does not mean that jobs have dried up for India’s swelling number of young graduates. As India’s economy booms and consumption rises, customer care has become a vital function, fueling growth in call centers for local businesses. Many graduates prefer to work at those centers, where they can speak Indian languages and live in smaller towns.


      Someone in a very expensive suit is at the front door and says he wants to foreclose on our democracy. Where should I tell him he can put his robosigning pen?

      by Into The Woods on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:32:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  China is now outsourcing to Mexico (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    barbwires, bablhous

    This was quite a while ago, actually.  Can't find the story again easily, but I commented at the time that a Chinese company was sub-contracting some of their sub-systems manufacturing to a factory in Mexico.

    The race to the bottom.  And it's a race none of us real people will ever win.

    I refuse to believe that Corporations are People until Texas executes one.

    by thenekkidtruth on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:57:55 AM PDT

  •  correction (11+ / 0-)

    We really need to stop referring to these companies as American. They don't pay taxes here. They take their money elsewhere.

    They are Multi National Corporations. They have allegiance to no one.

    "American" companies don't have all their workers in other countries.

    "I'll hold my nose and vote but I won't hold my nose and canvass or call or donate." Some Dkos Comment

    by onemadson on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:10:09 AM PDT

  •  Yes sir..Those $9/hr. call center jobs are (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    divineorder, dark daze

    springing up like all get out!  

    On a positive note:  At least we are winning the race to the bottom of the quality of life standard compared to the other modern world economies.

    "We're Number 1!"

    (or trying hard to be, that is.)  

    "You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes...." - Rolling Stones

    by LamontCranston on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:14:13 AM PDT

  •  The jobs can come back to the US but... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    divineorder, IT Professional, xrepub

    Will probably go behind prison fences as these companies have discovered they can get native English speakers for even less than they were paying the Indians/Phillipinos by using prison inmates.

    Inmates are already staffing call centers in several states and this trend will only expand.

    A - American L - Legislators E - Exemplifiying C - Corruption

    by Jean Sloan on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:24:29 AM PDT

  •  "The Flat Earth" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    divineorder, Caelian, Eric Blair, Matt Z

    turns into "The Flatlined Earth."

    Democrats give you the Bill of Rights; Republicans sell you a bill of goods!

    by barbwires on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:26:26 AM PDT

  •  Capital endlessly chases poverty around the globe (3+ / 0-)

    This is what happens when capital, goods, services and jobs have no borders, but people do. Jobs will flee from wealth towards poverty and people will be unable to follow. When one country's standard of living gets too high, the banksters will withdraw their investments in that country and move them to someplace poorer and more desperate. Once the standard of living in the first country drops low enough, the capital bandits might move the jobs back.

    As long as a small class of people own and control most of the planets resources, as long as money and goods can move unhindered from country to country but workers can not, we will be a planet of serfs, dependent on our corporate lords for our next meal.

    •  A planet of serfs with enough disposable income (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fotyc

      to continue to buy whatever is so feverishly being manufactured elsewhere?

      How many apples will the 1% buy?

      Do what you can with what you have where you are - Guild of Maintainers

      by bablhous on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 12:58:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, exactly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eric Blair

        Three steps:

        1.)  Area becomes wealthy as investors take advantage of poverty.

        2.) Investors withdraw funds to invest in a poorer area, but people still have money to buy things.

        3.) The first area becomes poor again, but now the new area has a booming economy. When it gets too rich, rinse and repeat with the nest poor shlubs.

        There will always be a temporary middle class someplace with enough cash to keep the whole charade going.  Also, not every country will have a corrupt enough government and complacent enough populace for this to work, for example, the social democracies of Europe may well provide a continual middle class with the purchasing power to keep the cycle going.

        But America? We're screwed, unless we do something. Fortunately, we are.

  •  so "Peggy" will have a new voice? (6+ / 0-)

    wow, and I just got used to the old one

    Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

    by Clytemnestra on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:38:21 AM PDT

    •  And the old "Peggy" will be buying less this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      Christmas.

      Just like the American "Peggy" has been buying less for the last decade.  

      Another turn round the self-reinforcing downward spiral.

      Wheeee.  

      Someone in a very expensive suit is at the front door and says he wants to foreclose on our democracy. Where should I tell him he can put his robosigning pen?

      by Into The Woods on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:34:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Did noone see "Outsourced" (0+ / 0-)

    -- the movie that is ...

    i am not offering any critical assessment of the movie (or tv series by the same name) -- but this IS how the movie ends ...

    The outsourced call center that moved to India gets outsourced to a cheaper center towards the end of the movie ...

    SURPRISE!!!! ... and Duh! ... who couldn't have saw that coming!?

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:01:29 AM PDT

  •  I work with a client that does legal document... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    djMikulec, Caelian

    ...review in the Phillipines.  Their lawyers get a weekly bonus - a bag of rice.

    The bear and the rabbit will never agree on how dangerous a dog is.

    by fromer on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:08:26 AM PDT

  •  i don't mean disrespect, but this is funny (0+ / 0-)

    i mean i had to laugh when i say the headline.

    say, let's OCCUPY fair wages for workers globally@@@@

  •  just a tidbit of possibly helpful info (0+ / 0-)

    If you call customer service and you are getting the third world run around.  Hang up and call the customer service line again, in many cases there is an option for discontinuing service.  Use that extension.  

    That will almost always connect you to a american center with their best trained and informed people.  They are trained to keep your business so they will attend to your need.

    Simply say, Im a long time customer, I really like to stay with you but currently I am having a problem with........  is there anything you can do to help rectify this problem and allow me to stay as your customer.

    If you know how to play the game, you can and will save time and thousands of dollars.

    Bad is never good until worse happens

    by dark daze on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:35:46 AM PDT

  •  subcontractor layering (0+ / 0-)

    Corporation A subcontracts its administrative functions to Corporation B, which subcontracts customer service to Corporation C in India, which now subcontracts the actual call center to Corporation D in the Philippines.  Each of these corporations has stockholders and CEOs to make rich, all of which trickles down to increased costs for us the customer.

    It almost makes you nostalgic for the days when truly gigantic 100% American corporations did all this stuff in-house and at a loss, rather than all these different and now mostly foreign corporations trying to squeeze profits and build fortunes off of peripheral functions.

    Do you know why they call it the American Dream? Because it only happens when you're asleep.

    by Visceral on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:45:01 AM PDT

  •  Hey at least we have a history w/Philippines (0+ / 0-)

    At least were exploiting post-American exploitation workers instead of post-British exploitation workers.

    We get what we want - or what we fail to refuse. - Muhammad Yunus

    by nightsweat on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 11:49:27 AM PDT

  •  US Corporations Are Now Building Ships To (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Utahrd

    House call center employees and they move them from country to country looking for cheap labor.  

    It is much more efficient than the expense of immovable buildings.

    Simply move the ship from India to Thailand and the wage paid is suddenlty 5 cents instead of 10 cents per hour.

    Soon the ship will dock in Texas and Rick Perry will brag about bringing jobs back to America with wages of 3 cents per hour.

    Americans will line up for blocks for those jobs.

    Livin' Large in a Tiny World

    by kerplunk on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:09:41 PM PDT

  •  Tom Friedman predicted this in (0+ / 0-)

    "The World is Flat"

    Assent- and you are sane- Demur- you’re straightway dangerous- And handled with a Chain- - Emily Dickinson

    by SpamNunn on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:22:34 PM PDT

  •  another lap in the race to the bottom (0+ / 0-)

    Two most obscene words in the English language: financial services

    by BobBlueMass on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 08:27:55 PM PDT

  •  Speaking of corrupt 3rd world places (0+ / 0-)

    Utah has lots of call center jobs.

    People in Bangalore don't speak Korean or Spanish too well.

    Lots of people in Utah spent 18 months or 2 years in Korea or Mexico.

  •  This is old news, very old news (0+ / 0-)

    Companies had switched to outsourcing to Philippine call centers years ago.  I myself have worked in the call center industry and I know that this has been going on since at least 2006 if not earlier.  Apparently the city people in Manila wouldn't work for the paltry wages they offered so they'd actually bus rural bumpkins from the countryside to work in the call centers.

    Argentina was another popular country for call center work.  Not sure how cheap the labor was there but it was probably cheaper than India.  So it seems like it went India ---> Philippines ---> Argentina.  No idea what the current popular country to outsource call center work to is.  South Africa seems a likely possibility as there are plenty of English speakers there and they're a third world country and pretty impoverished.  Gotta find the poorest country to exploit!

    Fight global warming. Be a pirate.

    by Orangebeard on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 09:32:33 PM PDT

  •  My job was outsourced to the Phillipines too. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine

    I worked for Clear internet support. The last 6 months were an ever spiraling downward hell of customers getting more and more pissed off as more and more of their calls got routed overseas.

    We had so many customers being blind transferred to us (by overseas 'techs' that didn't want to do their jobs) that many of them got stuck in hour+ long hold loops.

    Some of the basic questions and issues I saw that were being sent to our 'advanced' support were things I learned day 1. Things it was their JOB to do, that the documentation they were supposed to be using listed as what they were supposed to be doing. You don't transfer to second level support to have the customer unplug their modem!

    I got reamed so many times daily by customers venting about the poor service they were being subjected to by these people that I gave up and started admitting I agree'd with them.

    I worked with people of Philippino descent, they were some of the most brilliant people I've ever met. The only thing I could figure is they found the most uneducated people in the country, gave them google-translated training materials to read for a day, and then put them on the phones.

    Because nothing else could explain the godawful customer service and horrific 'tech support' they were giving people. When I found out they were going to start handling billing and retention, I wrote the company off. I really don't think Clear will survive the next two years with customer service like that.

    They also can apparently staff like 12 people in a week for what I got paid in a day, and I was barely making enough to get by in my city.

    Clear didn't even have the balls to let us go themselves. They transferred us to another company with the threat of 'you accept this position or you'll be marked as voluntarily quitting and thus be ineligible for unemployment' and the warning that the job would be gone in 60 days. I got the call about this about 8 hours before we were to be transitioned to the other company. I had almost no time to think or to research my options.

    At least when dell started outsourcing to India we were given more warning and trained for another campaign. (dell used to outsource to a US based company with US based call centers and we routinely performed better than their own internal support. But apparently 9.50 an hour per tech was too expensive to maintain)

    We had over 200 signatures on a Trade Act petition and I'm praying it goes through. I've done call center tech support for 10 years now and I just can't do this any more. We're treated as expendable warm bodies by our employers and as enemy #1 by the customers. The things people have said to me (or yelled at me) over the phone would make internet trolls blush.

    Insert witty slogan here.

    by SniperCT on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:18:22 PM PDT

    •  Oh... (0+ / 0-)

      That wasn't the only stupid thing Clear did, but it was the crowning glory of the stupid things they did.

      Advertising high speeds and unlimited video streaming and then implementing a draconian throttling system was close though.

      Insert witty slogan here.

      by SniperCT on Tue Oct 18, 2011 at 10:21:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lets invent our own currency... (0+ / 0-)

    take everything we own and form businesses at home that pay the workers fair wages and benefits, respect the environment and protect consumers, then we'll boycott everything else we can

    ...and all the economic growth of our shadow economy will stay with us.  We'll write the pricks out and what can they do about it?.

    That's all sarcasm... Ron Paul's "free market" solution to all our problems... but I can dream.

  •  Free enterprise, free people. (0+ / 0-)

    Okay $.05 a day people. Hell, that's damn near free.

  •  Reserve army of labour (0+ / 0-)

    One of the principal results of the free trade agreements has been to throw US workers into a global pool of labor where there are far more workers than available work.  While capital can easily move around the globe searching for the cheapest labor, workers are unable to re-locate easily.  

    •  Yeah and that's always been one of the reasons why (0+ / 0-)

      the civil rights movement screwed labor over.  During an economic downturn, and now all sorts of other people competing toss in affirmative action and you can get where some of the right wing populist rage comes from.

      Now I think the civil rights movement was a great thing.  I also think that raising the quality of life in China, Korea, Brazil, India, are wonderful things as well.  However the point remains that more workers competing for the same job = great for business and horrible for workers.

      People forget that the "high wages and quality middle class" in the US wasn't just because of "good education and high taxation" not at all.  It was because people used racist hiring logic which shrunk the work pool, a whole ton of xenophobia over foreign goods, and the fact that every other "industrial nation" had been bombed to hell and back in WW2 and most other nations just flat out could manufacture anything.

      Everything has changed since then, and it's going to keep changing.

      And this remains a problem with capitalism, it's a zero sum game.  For someone to win, someone else has to lose.  Protectionism, xenophobia, and racism were at the heat of the "thriving middle class post ww2 boom", that's not so much the case now.  Government tax revenues are in the crapper, and technology has made all jobs global.

      To get a thriving middle class back it's going to take a hefty dose of socialism, extremely aggressive taxation, local job creation through government, and destruction of "too big to fail" monopolies forcing jobs into smaller and more local markets.  Goods are also going to have to get more expensive to make sure proper wages are paid, and it's going to be a huge shift.

      I think it can be done, not sure if it's in my lifetime, but something's got to give at some point or shit's going to get ugly.  There's only so many you can force into the streets, and we're starting to run out of world regions to pillage (We've got South America and Africa left and even South America is starting to move  up) before the rich don't have anyone less to screw.

      It's also why I'm glad OWS is global.  Our governments are outdated.  We have old, Western style Democratic governments, trying to save us from global corporations that owe no allegence to anyone and export jobs.  Just wait though, watch people start coordinating their votes in various nations and that's when the shit will really hit the fan.

      You think the rich get freaked out now?  Wait till some saps in America, South Africa, India, Korea, Brazil all realize they are getting screwed and start coordinating global politician voting, the freakout will be hilarious.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Wed Oct 19, 2011 at 12:11:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  won't change until other countries catch up (0+ / 0-)

    Rich countries will always bleed manual labor jobs and jobs  that can be trained easily to poorer ones. It will only balance out when cost parity is achieved world-wide.

  •  We are the new third world! (0+ / 0-)

    This, of course, has been the Republican (businesses') plan from the beginning.  Turn American into the Third World, and bring the jobs home!--This will be so much easier without unions and the middle class!

    Old Hippies Never Give Up!

    by ravenrdr on Wed Oct 19, 2011 at 01:23:15 AM PDT

  •  you want to do a good u-tube do this (0+ / 0-)

     Post clips of Herman Cain making his jokes and then PAN across the crowd, showing them laughing at the humor. THEN, fast forward to the statement, THIS IS YOUR REPUBLICAN PARTY.

  •  So...where's the next source of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    cheap labor for the US...the planet Endor? I hear those Ewoks are tired of foraging in the woods and are ready to embrace technology...

    "You put a monkey in a tuxedo, it's still a monkey" -Kellybee's Uncle Leon, From Chicago

    by Kellybee on Wed Oct 19, 2011 at 04:08:02 AM PDT

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