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police pepper spray UC Davis protesters
Teaching the riffraff their proper place.
They don't want college for the masses.
Just six years ago, tuition at the University of California was $5357. Tuition is currently $12,192. According to current proposals, it will be $22,068 by 2015-2016.

It's not just skyrocketing tuition, it's also the coordinated campaign against Pell Grants and other forms of student aid.

At present course, only the wealthy will be able to afford higher education. And really, that would be perfectly okay with them.

Less competition for their offspring.

Originally posted to kos on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:08 PM PST.

Also republished by Progressive Hippie, ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement, and Daily Kos.

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  •  Don't forget student loan interest restrictions (112+ / 0-)

    Impossible to renegotiate rates, to refinance, to declare bankruptcy ... So banks can profit, so what if students are screwed for life? And if students can't go, well ... less competition for the bankers' progeny.

  •  Well, actually.... (65+ / 0-)

    ...the offspring of the rich never did have to compete with the children of factory workers.  Alumni status and a nice donation to the college work miracles.

    But, the hypothesis may be half correct. For whatever reason, they are doing things that will keep children of the 99% from getting a college education.

  •  I think the 1%ers will be OK with (30+ / 0-)

    some of those kids going to college, so long as they are compelled to take on crippling private debt to fund the quixotic quest for the American Dream.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:16:50 PM PST

  •  Today many are leaving college heavily in debt (41+ / 0-)

    to find that only minimum wage jobs are available. You can't pay off today's high level student debt working for the minimum wage.

    Gasoline made from the tar sands gives a Toyota Prius the same impact on climate as a Hummer using gasoline made from oil. ~ Al Gore

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:18:50 PM PST

  •  Assuming that the 1% (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    atheistben, JMoore, NYFM, FG

    are in charge of setting tuition costs at California universities, which is doubtful, the remainder of the state system is still a bargain...

    California Community Colleges: $864
    California State University: $6,489

  •  Oh, come on, Kos... (8+ / 0-)

    The 1% does not want only the 1% to go to college. They may not want to pay for the other 99% to go to college, but to make the leap to them not wanting the other 99% to go to college is a pretty weak sell...

    The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

    by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:19:58 PM PST

    •  Whether they "want" it or not (35+ / 0-)

      attacking public universities, Pell grants and federally-financed student loans has the effect of making it more difficult for anyone who isn't wealthy to afford higher education.

      In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
      The young emerald evening star,
      Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
      And ladies soon to be married.

      by looty on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:41:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually (30+ / 0-)

      He's pretty well on the money.  In the early 90s William Buckley argued for having universities sustained only by tuitions, with little or no state funding for any field, including the engineering and the hard sciences.  So who, apart from the 1%, would have been able to afford post-secondary education?

      Buckley's program would've turned America into a third class country over a generation, and it's one of the reasons empirical hard-edged analysis shows conservatism is bad for the country.

      •  William Buckley? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JMoore, Odysseus, NYFM, Balto

        And in 1869, John Purdue (a businessman in the top 1%) donated land and money to create the university I would attend some 130 years later.

        You can't make generalizations about what the 1% want from one person (especially when that one person is William Buckley).

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:49:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Conservative war on education (0+ / 0-)

          is pretty well documented.  They aren't undertaking that war for no reason.

          Generally those who are poorly educated are the ones who are easy to manipulate.  That isn't a new concept.  

    •  Worst diary ever (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and it needs to to be diaried.
      Tuition inflation, and more importantly, the "higher education bubble", is just like the real estate bubble- the academic complex (and lenders) want everyone to be able to play, and want everyone to be able to borrow so that they can keep pushing the tuition levels ever higher and higher.  They love having all these graduates with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.  They just need to keep up the illusion that a college education is affordable to all.  However, that reality is being pushed to the edge of breaking over the past decade, so the tuition inflation will need to be reeled in.

      •  The rise in tuition won't be sustained (0+ / 0-)

        The primary reason for the rise is not so that students will have to take out more debt. The reason is that states aren't funding at levels they once did. The universities are then forced to raise tuition to cover their costs. It's not a bank's get-rich-quick scheme.

        Anyway, funding can only be cut so far before there's just no funding anymore. Hopefully, it won't go that far, but the point is that there's an upper bound on tuition inflation. And that it's tied to real economic factors, not a speculative bubble or scheme.

        And by the way, higher education is still worth it if you're going for a marketable education. If you're going for Spanish Literature, not so much...

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:14:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  What gives you the right to judge the 1% (4+ / 0-)

      There is a reality buried here which is that the elite of the elite rich, i.e. the upper .2 percent are immensely more rich than the the 99.0-99.2 bracket.

      Wealth within wealth is without question stratified. p://

      But I don't think there's any evidence to sustain what you say here or elsewhere in this area. It's kind of pigheaded. You assign a slightly selfish motive and assume that it can be no worse, a defiance of a corollary to Acton's law or something similar, including behind every great fortune is a great crime.

      There is without any question a class in this country with immense wealth that spends immense amounts of money propagandizing against taxes, against shared responsibilities, against the public good and against any significant improvement in education where it most matters.

      You could send the sprouts of much of that elite income class to any school and their family connections would take care of them. It is, in their mind, just part of their entitlement.

      But what you are in the end defending is the attack on civilization that comes with the defense of those who take the most out of our system and put in terms relative to their income the least back in. Sure, they're willing to build schools with their name on it that preach their perverted religion. But that's about it. The Koch Brothers spent hundreds of millions on institutions who do that and nothing otherwise that they're not absolutely bound to do by law that is enforced. They're not alone.

      You say you know many of the one percent. I think my wife and I were at one time, but I've never forgotten where I come from or the debt that we all owe to having good public education.

      The so-called death tax is a typical tax dodge that frequently protects never-taxed income. It will probably affect us if it is in effect, but so what. We're both be dead and we worked for it. We can give it away before we die - or not.

      We consider ourself modestly affluent, but also civilized. We contribute in taxes and donations and I'd go back to the Clinton tax plan in a minute. That was the best eight years of our lives, both ours and our United States.

      •  Well... (0+ / 0-)
        behind every great fortune is a great crime

        The wealthiest man in the US is Bill Gates. What's his great crime? Stealing the mouse idea from Apple (who stole it from Xerox)? Some anti-trust stuff around Netscape (a shittier web-browser)? Meh. His company just made better products and he got a lot of the profit from those products. That's no crime.

        Plus, he started a charity to eradicate polio, malaria, hunger, etc. Plus it does a ton of other good things. It gives thousands of people jobs. Jesus Christ, people here think anyone rich must be a Smithers. It's re-god-damn-diculous.

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:19:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, that is how it always was (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      until about the 1960's and 70's.  In the "old"days, say 1950's, there were four kinds of college students:

      1.  1% class legacy types getting a "well rounded education" so that they would have the sophistication and culture to carry on the family business/legacy.

      2.  1-5% class types who went into the professions, often following the family tradition, i.e. doctors, lawyers, architects, and the like.

      3.  The occassional up-by-the-bootstraps types who got academic scholarships and/or worked their way through college by waiting tables occupied by the above, while getting precious little sleep.  While these folks were often a "novelty" to the rich, they did exist.  These guys became the engineers, accountants, etc,.

      All of the above were men,...and white.

      4.  1-5% class Women getting their "Mrs." degrees.  The wealthy and near-wealthy sent their daughters to college to become educated and cultured, and to find a nice college boy with good earning potential to marry.

      The GI Bill, finanical aid, and student loans changed all that for the better.  The downside, is that we sent "everybody" to college, and there weren't enough jobs or good majors for everyone.  I'm pretty sure that everyone of us who graduated from college knew somebody in college who was there taking up space because it was easier than working at a job.

      This is the period when the "trades" became devalued, and that made it easier for the 1% to depress their wages and benefits, and strip them of the honorable status they had throughout history.  College isn't for everyone, but with the way everything else has gone, you might as well take your chance.

    •  Nah, this isn't what they want (7+ / 1-)

      They just don't want to pay for the education of other people's children through taxes. That's it. If you take it farther than that, you're being unjustifiably cynical.

      The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

      by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:34:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (29+ / 0-)

        Are you a spokesperson for the 1%?   I think for too long, a few have exploited so many and created a society that is profoundly unequal.  

        But even if you are right, I am tired of using the armed power of the state to protect their wealth.   Let them use their wealth for private armies to protect themselves.  

        "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil. Government belongs wherever evil needs an adversary and there are people in distress who cannot help themselves." (Robert F. Kennedy, Speech, Athens, Georgia, May 6, 1961).

        by TomP on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:36:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not, but I spend enough of my time (5+ / 2-)

          with people in the top 1%. They aren't the Smithers of the world. They're generally good people who have done well financially. Doctors, Lawyers, Businesspeople, etc. For the most part, they want everyone to be able to enjoy the successes they've had. The problem comes with you start talking about giving everyone those financial successes at their expense. Many will shy away from that idea.

          However, when it comes to school and education, I think you get a lot more traction on support from the wealthy than on any other issue. The rich donate tons of money to colleges. A big piece of most university budgest is donations from wealthy alumni. The wealthy want the people educated.

          The rich know that they benefit from the inventions of poor people who were able to get a great education. They really do.

          The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

          by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:44:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Many doctors are not in the 1% these days. (15+ / 0-)

            It's a well-paying job, but it's not a get-rich job.

          •  I am going to pick apart 1 part of your post. (20+ / 0-)

            Doctors as part of the 1%.

            Some Doctors may be part of the 1% but the majority are not. They make a very good living, they generally have a steady income flow but not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

            *In 2008, physicians practicing primary care had total median annual compensation of $186,044, and physicians practicing in medical specialties earned total median annual compensation of $339,738. *

            In addition training as an MD is expensive. Very, very expensive.
            Rarely will you find an 18 y/o entering college and finishing through medical school paying cash. Like others they will take grants, scholarships and loans.

            Medical schools are expensive to run. I doubt that you will find many that don't take government funds.

            The idea that Doctors got where they are without the assistance of taxpayers or that they were able to fund their educations with part-time jobs is a nice story but can be classified as a fable.

            Also the idea that all, or even most Doctors are part of the 1% sounds great but is also a pleasant fable.

            Constitution and Bill of rights available for use from 6AM till 10PM Monday through Friday. At all other times the rules are made up for the convenience of the local police/politicians.

            by J Rae on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:15:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  To address your concern... (0+ / 0-)

              In 2009, the cutoff for the top 1% was about $344k. Which would put a little less than half of specialist doctors in the top 1%.

              Also, just because relatively small fraction of doctors are in the top 1%, that doesn't mean that most of the top 1% aren't doctors. To avoid the inevitable follow-up comment, I'm not saying most people in the top 1% are doctors, but I'm saying from the information we've cited, that could be the case. Personally, I'd love to see a pie chart that shows occupations of people in the top 1%, because I really don't know.

              The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

              by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:25:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You Just Proved They Are (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NYFM, ms badger, cardinal, orlbucfan

              The top 1% of income collectors starts at $344K. You just cited numbers showing that half of specialists make over 340. The difference between 50%+1 and 49.9% is meaningless. Half of doctors overall make over $186K, which puts them in the top 2-3% - again, a meaningless distinction from the 1%. Despite what you say, your numbers show that most doctors do have a steady income flow in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. And consider doctors entire households, where a spouse will boost its income to near double that or beyond.

              Yes, a doctor's education is expensive. But $200K debt invested in a career that pays about $200K a year for about 40 years is a great deal, especially paid off over decades while inflation eventually makes the interest rate negative.

              There aren't enough doctors, so the limited supply against the surging demand makes medical prices high. If we were serious about health costs and what they do to the entire economy, we'd ensure the country licenses at least double the number of doctors. We'd make public education through a medical degree free, paid by taxing the 1% - including the many doctors who make it there, to get that many doctors. There should be enough doctors that a house call is part of the job, not the punchline of an old joke. Medical schools, all of which are publicly subsidized, should be returning a lot more doctors to the public for the favor. Incomes would go down, but the economy would work a lot better for them and everyone else.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:53:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Uprated to counter HR abuse (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NYFM, mrbeen38
          •  You have passed my (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shahryar, Jackson L Haveck, esquimaux

            tolerance for dickishness. What is the difference between listening to your garbage which is spewing all over this comment thread and having Newt or Rand Paul here? your dickishness is not personally insulting but it reeks of everything I feel is wrong with having the 1% running the country. In short your a libertarian dick and a disgrace to atheists who have a heart soul or even some humanity.  I reject and am offended by your nasty elitist libertarian garbage.    

      •  It's hard (5+ / 0-)

        to be unjustifiably cynical these days.
        Every time we dare to think,
        "Nah, they wouldn't...."
        They do.

      •  I don't know why this is HR'd (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYFM, highacidity

        uprated. The HR'ing party is out of bounds.

        •  NOT that I agree with the commenters (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Egalitare, highacidity


          That should be amply made clear but is immaterial to these HR's.

          •  Nobody ever agrees with me when it comes to (0+ / 0-)

            economic issues. Meh. I get along a lot better with the community when social issues are the topic of the day. :-)

            Thanks for the uprate. I appreciate.

            The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

            by atheistben on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:52:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's what you will get around here (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LucyandByron, TomP, Matt Z

              for (seemingly) not being in favor of the middle and lower classes getting access to more wealth. If you are a libertarian (at which your allusion to social issues hints), it doesn't surprise me in the least--you will be despised by both left and right because your views are antithetical to both sides. It's just on different issues that this will take place.

            •  earners vs takers (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jackson L Haveck, esquimaux, BradyB

              You assume that people at the very elite top actually earn their money instead of exploit people and resources to take more. I disagree with that assumption.

              The reason things are so bad right now is that those with money and power are taking more -- a LOT more -- than they earn from their position and efforts. You will see stats all over this website and elsewhere that prove this point.

              Its called restoring actual, functional checks and balances. It is not 'socialism' to address policies that lead to this kind of swindle. When they are able to stack boards with toadies and name princely terms for 'compensation' or 'severance packages' and hire loads of lawyers and PR firms to hide and confuse the details from stockholders and other interested parties, it is time for reform.

              Al Gore was right. Why isn't he president?

              by musicsleuth on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 06:04:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not earn, not take, trade (0+ / 0-)

                They trade for their wealth.

                They offer you a set amount of money for doing something. You accept it. That is a trade. It is a trade mutually agreed to by both parties. Generally, it is an arms-length trade.

                Aside: Slavery doesn't count here, nor do nepotism trades and all of that shit. That's not the way the system is supposed to work, and can be addressed through legislation. On the other hand, the "I have to accept the trade to have food to eat" argument is not slavery. There is a labor market, and you will get what your labor is worth. And things are worth what their purchaser will pay for them when markets exist.

                So, when the wealthy trade you money for your labor, and that labor results in something the wealthy person can then trade for more money, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with acquiring money in this way. This is basically the democratization of trade. Everyone plays a role in driving prices - not by votes, but by their freely chosen actions.

                The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

                by atheistben on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:09:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unless the 'trade' exploits (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cville townie

                  that talent and resources. There is plenty of evidence to support that the line has been crossed.  Our labor and resources are worth a lot more than the going rate. Just look at the exponential growth in top compensation in relation to the talent they hire. The market is broken. The 'freely chosen' actions you see now are mild compared to what will happen next if this unchecked greed continues.

                  Al Gore was right. Why isn't he president?

                  by musicsleuth on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:55:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                    What do you mean by "exploits?" The term is defined, generally, as a brilliant or heroic use or resources. What do you mean by it, and what exactly do you perceive going on that is negative? In other words, what line has been crossed?

                    What makes you think your labor and resources are worth more than the going rate? How would you quantify that?

                    Growth in managerial compensation demonstrates a shift in business thinking that says that management plays a much higher role in the generation of profit than the normal workers. For this, I happen to agree. I see it all the time.

                    And is that last part a threat?

                    The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

                    by atheistben on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 10:09:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not a threat (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cville townie

                      More like historical evidence. Who do you think determines that these fat cats deserve their compensation? If you look at schoolyard bullies you could make a case that they are better at 'profit generation' than their schoolyard buddies, too. Does that mean they earn it?

                      They have crossed the line thanks to lax regulation and unchecked greed.

                      Al Gore was right. Why isn't he president?

                      by musicsleuth on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 10:19:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  managerial compensation (0+ / 0-)

                      i dont agree...i myself am fairly well off but i can't for the life of me justify executives at some companies making the amount of money they make and being "worth it". I am all for empowering middle and lower management positions and raising the bar for performance there because those positions allow the managers to have direct contact with their subordinates to effect change. IN other words i would like to see these ceos who take home 20 million a year take at least half that and push it down to the middle management ranks...or the middle class.

                      THis is all anecdotally but the fact is that people at the very type of any organization are usually so far removed from the day to day operations that to say they are worth 300/400 times what their average worker makes seems suspect to me.As a matter of fact to me these higher positions just seemed ripped for good old boy pat on the back salaries that are just given because "thats what is expected". The claims that they can't possibly find the "talent" to fill these positions without offering the money is just ludicrous if you simply observe how many people have business degrees and how the same...stupid...people...who were in charge of companies that FAILED are hired again by another company. It is an old boys club through and through.

                      I am not against wealth or people holding massive wealth, clearly specialized fields (doctors, lawyers, hell even top sports players) deserved to be compensated for their talents. But i been through enough organizations to know that it doesn't take a genius to be in charge...just take a look at a few past presidents and a certain former godfather's ceo. As the old saying goes it is not what you know but who you know.

                      I think we would be wise to not think of those at the top of the pyramid as the most rational allocators of resources. The comedy of it all is that they have so much money sometimes they don't know what to do with might as well pay your buddies off and not bother pushing that down to the middle and lower workers...cause anyone could do those jobs right?

                      It is my belief that a lot of the top dogs marginalize the middle managers a great deal, but all this is just my opinion i tend to be long winded!

                •  You are assuming everyone agrees with an economic (0+ / 0-)

                  system that treats labor like any other commodity.  

                •  Like the freely chosen action of forming a union? (0+ / 0-)

                  How's that working out for workers these days?  Your argument seems to rest on the idea that the top income earners...the controllers of the means of production...(the bourgeousie if you will) aren't the ones in complete control of the regulatory structure.

                  Legislation is pretty useless when the democratic process is rigged to serve only the richest members of society.  

                  My point isn't necessarily that I think you are completely wrong.  Well regulated capitalism isn't necessarily an terrible thing.  Trading labor for wages isn't necessarily a terrible thing.  But when your political system becomes little more than a tool for the super rich well regulated capitalism is an impossibility.

                  And one last thing.  People need to stop getting so bent out of shape over the "1%" slogan.  It's a slogan, nothing more.  When people talk about the 1% they are speaking figuratively.  It's code, essentially, for "the oligarchs."  "We are the 99.99%" doesn't quite have the same affect.

      •  Isn't that the same thing? (5+ / 0-)

        who pays the taxes and for what are they paying for becomes the issue. Would I rather pay my taxes which are hefty, as I'm a self proprietorship business and a home owner to bail out the crooks that busted our economies, and anti them up for another round of pillaging and corporate wars,  or have them pay for social services like education both higher and lower that benefit our society and allow people to live productive lives that pay enough to live on?

        Education like health care should not be for profit it should be paid for by our taxes. I'm not the cynical one here nor is Tom P, you are. How cynical can you get when your argument centers around defending making good quality pubic education unaffordable and unattainable by most people? Selfishness and elitism raised as a virtue that makes people work harder or some such nonsense.  What are you arguing for here? Culling the rabble out of the educational system? Are you an Ayn Rand fan?

      •  I'm not so sure about that, but not cynically (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jackson L Haveck, orlbucfan

        I get the sentiment you're talking about, but as a product of the Deep South, happy to be an expatriate, there was a combination of both the cost and mental attitude.

        An overly educated class of people would not have gone along with a system that turned the state (as did others) government over to counties with a vast 70-90 percent African-American population at the same time they were disenfranchising African-Americans.

        While I think that part of your statement fits, they wouldn't be so concerned about keeping many people from registering or voting. Educated people are less apt to fall for those schemes. In the same way, I can't find a good reason for the vastly different outcomes for African-Americans and white accused of the same crime. One race is criminalized much more often than the other (on a purely statistical basis). This is in the end all about power. Money is just part of it.

        It's not cynical to look at the input and see what results.

        FWIW, I live in an area with very high property taxes with 60 percent of them going to schools. At 68, I've never had a child in these schools and never will. Nor Grandchildren, etc. But I favor it, especially if it's well run, because community is what we as a people and civilization are about.

        The difference between us and them, i.e. the hypothetical 1 % (which includes a few like us) is that they have so sense of shared civilization or community. They rarely have contact with us. And they don't see why they should pay taxes for anything, including that enormous defense establishment which gives them big fat contracts.

  •  Families that are part of the 1% (21+ / 0-)

    should have no problem paying full tuition at any private university that their kids can get into, and there are still a lot of good ones that are in decent financial shape. From that perspective, they can attack public universities with no real consequences for their families.

    However, if the anti-tax crowd succeeds in dragging down public universities such as UC Davis it will hurt the entire economy so badly that even elite private institutions will suffer.

  •  Amen! Keeping the populace down. (14+ / 0-)

    There was always a lot of racial discrimination in the South. Only a few were able to attend segregated black colleges, most families didn't have the money.

    The leading attorney in Birmingham, Arthur Shores, was unable to attend law school because no one considered such a law school necessary in the state to be "separate but equal." He earned his law degree in the 1930s by mail -- and still faced the stiff bar exam, something that white graduates of U of A didn't have to do.

    It's worth remember that blacks weren't the only victims of the planter autocracy. Poor and most middling class whites couldn't attend college. The state schools were in areas with small populations and urban schools were private and expensive. Some of us managed, me eventually, working my way all the way through, with a longish drop out for money reasons.

    The GI bill started to change things in the US, but not equally. One place where it made a huge difference was California where tuition was Zero in the pre-Kos days for residents. For good or ill, Berkeley was the source of Oppenheimer and most of the core Manhattan Project.

    If you look at what the result of the state education system of California, just look at the economic miracle that occurred in California. Then came the  famous prop stopping tax increases and then there was Ronald Reagan, the governor who effectively destroyed the California educational system as a source of equality and genius.

    Privatizing tuitions -- ending state support --hasn't restrained tuition, but caused them to go up. There seems to be no limit because, after all, you're not spending tax money, you're spending individual family money. Our goal needs to be to see that everyone gets an appropriate education. That   may not be college, but that's something we shouldn't deny anyone who's got the goods.

  •  No need for a college education when the (11+ / 0-)

    only jobs available pay $15.00/hr max.

    Welcome to the world as most know it.  Chaos, cronyism, and corruption.

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:25:13 PM PST

    •  2011-2012 College salary Report (4+ / 0-)

      Best College Degrees

      Human Resources (HR)    $37,900   
      Organizational Management (OM)    $42,300   
      Agriculture    $38,600   
      Psychology    $35,000   
      Medical Technology    $45,100   
      Health Care Administration    $36,700   
      Sociology    $36,100   
      Radio & Television    $35,000   
      Hospitality & Tourism    $35,900   
      Visual Communication    $35,600   
      Criminal Justice    $35,300   
      Fine Arts    $35,900   
      Spanish    $36,400    $58,400
      Interior Design    $34,300   
      Humanities    $34,900   
      Horticulture    $39,600   
      Theater    $34,700   
      Music    $36,800   
      Graphic Design    $35,600   
      Fashion Merchandising    $36,800   
      Dietetics    $41,500   
      Education    $36,800   
      Kinesiology    $34,200   
      Photography    $32,900   
      Nutrition    $38,600   
      Interdisciplinary Studies (IS)    $36,300   
      Exercise Science    $33,100   
      Social Science    $36,600   
      Drama    $37,800   
      Multimedia and Web Design    $40,400   
      Animal Science    $33,800   
      Paralegal/Law    $35,300   
      Art History    $38,300   
      Art    $35,300   
      Theology    $35,600   
      Public Health (PH)    $35,500   
      Athletic Training    $34,600   
      Religious Studies    $32,900   
      Recreation & Leisure Studies    $34,500   
      Special Education    $34,300   
      Culinary Arts    $29,900   
      Social Work (SW)    $32,200   
      Elementary Education    $32,400   
      Child and Family Studies    $29,600

      •  What's the difference between drama & theater? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        akeitz, BeeDeeS, mrbeen38

        That list seems loopy.

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07.

        by anastasia p on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:35:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  How long will it take to pay off a student loan (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        War on Error, marina

        costing $150K with these salaries? Hmm . . .

        •  Why in the world (0+ / 0-)

          would anyone interested in the above generate 150k worth of loans? Find a less expensive school.

          •  Total cost of UC is pushing $150k now (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            when you include living expenses, especially since with the cuts in class sections it's become very hard to complete a degree in 4 years.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:07:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The alternative is to not goto UC (0+ / 0-)

              The state of California has affordable alternatives.

              •  There are options, but (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                There are experiences you can have at UC that you cannot get at CSU, which does not have PhD programs or high level scientific research.

                There are experiences and opportunities you miss doing two years at home at the local JC and then two at a four-year college.

                At these prices, that's probably what today's kids should do. But it is a loss, to them, and to us.

                The generation that built California from a sleepy state into an economic powerhouse could go to UC nearly for free.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 10:26:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Right (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                esquimaux, bryduck

                Let's just accept that UC is only for the privileged few nowadays, shall we?

                We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

                by denise b on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 11:17:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Let's not pretend there are no alternatives (0+ / 0-)

                  Spending 150K on a degree with low financial payback is a personal decision that has nothing to do with making UC strictly for the privileged. There are alternatives.

                  Other alternatives include pursuing a degree that will allow a student to pay back large student loans and/or performing at a high enough academic level that other grants become available.

                  •  The alternatives may not be equivalent (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I went to a JC for two years, then a CSU school and then to law school at a UC.  I met only 2 other people in my law school class of about 300 that went to a CSU.  The big law firms, which offer the best pay, all want employees with degrees from high ranking Universities - both undergrad and law school.  None of the CSU schools, with the exception of maybe Cal Poly for engineering are considered top schools.  Thus, it appears to me that CSU candidates are under-represented in law school and at big law firms.   My point being that although there are other alternatives, the other alternatives do not necessarily provide comparable opportunities to graduates.  

      •  50% of Americans earn less than $26.5 K (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib, Actbriniel

        40% earn less than $20K.


        Housing $15K a year.

        Lot's of luck.  Better all get married.  Oh, wait.  Half of Americans are now single.


        It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

        by War on Error on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:39:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why did you cut off (0+ / 0-)

        the top half of that list?

  •  I heard that in the 60s college cost $100 a year (20+ / 0-)

    Here's what happened since then:

    1) Tax cuts reduced the availability of public funds
    2) Tax cuts reduced the ease of obtaining research grants
    3) The disappearance of manufacturing jobs raised demand for college

    The perfect storm.

  •  well hell Ron Paul has been saying that repeatedly (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Donkey Hotey, Marie, martini, Tam in CA

    during the debates with the other bobbleheads agreeing with him. This is the primer behind getting rid of the dept. of ed.

    Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

    by yawnimawke on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:28:28 PM PST

  •  OWS demonstration of college costs (16+ / 0-)
    Mo Tarafa stood before students at a small, outdoor concrete auditorium at Florida International University and called for volunteers to sit in the 10 chairs before her.

    Each chair, she said, represented 10 per cent of the wealth in the United States and 10 per cent of the population.

    The students, mostly in their 20s and wearing jeans and T-shirts on a balmy autumn Thursday afternoon in Miami, took their places.

    Then Tarafa asked nine of the students to squeeze together into five of the chairs. This, she said, was the distribution of wealth in 1996.

    Next she asked nine students to fit into three of the chairs.

    This, she said, is the distribution of wealth today.

    “How are you all feeling right now?” she said.

    “Uncomfortable,” said one of the students piled up on one another.


    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:29:04 PM PST

  •  You know, a couple of years ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    before I actually took the leap and joined Kos, I could swear I read a diary here about some Rockerfeller Institute thing from way,way back, about only educating the rich.

    I've got a shocking memory and could be wrong. I've looked for it since and can't find it.

    Maybe someone else here remembers it?

    •  Job Polarization (5+ / 0-)

      Job Polarization in the United States: A Widening Gap and Shrinking Middle

      The chart shows that the dispersion in wages among occupations is clearly growing, with the gap being driven primarily by rising wages in occupations at the top of the distribution. The top five occupational categories—Legal, Computer and Math, Engineers and Architects, Management, and Social Scientists—have each seen rapid wage growth since 1980. For example, the median wage for Computer and Math occupations was roughly $49,000 in 1980, rising to $67,000 in 2009. By contrast, wages in the middle and lower portion of the wage distribution have been more stagnant, and for some occupational categories, wages have even declined over this period, particularly between 2000 and 2009. For example, the median wage of Construction jobs fell from $38,000 in 1980 to $35,000 in 2009. While the wages of the bottom five occupational categories—Building and Maintenance, Farming, Health Support, Personal Care, and Food Preparation—generally increased over this period, the dollar value of the wage gains were relatively modest. As a result, wage dispersion across occupations has steadily increased since 1980.

      As long as the requirements to get a job keep rising, people who do not have both the ability to compete and a resource base to compete from will continue to get squeezed.

      We need to ensure that a broad spectrum of American citizens have the resources to compete.

      -7.75 -4.67

      "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

      There are no Christians in foxholes.

      by Odysseus on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:57:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Woodrow Wilson, 1909 (18+ / 0-)
    "We want one class of persons to have a liberal education and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privileges of a liberal education." --Woodrow Wilson, 1909

    Passengers: Feel free to rearrange the deck chairs, but please remember that the bridge is off limits.

    by happymisanthropy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:33:56 PM PST

  •  So why should CA fund UC if it's overpriced (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JMoore, ColoTim, Laconic Lib, Matt Z

    ...for state residents? LAT:

    A first: UC fees exceed state funding
    Propelled by budget crises, California is becoming more like other states in passing more of the burden of a college education on to students.
    August 22, 2011|Larry Gordon

    For the first time, the total amount that University of California students pay in tuition this year will surpass the funding the prestigious public university receives from the state. It is a historic shift for the UC system and part of a national trend that is changing the nature of public higher education.

    Propelled by budget crises in California and elsewhere, the burden of paying for education at a public college or university, once heavily subsidized by taxpayers, is shifting to students and their families.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:34:00 PM PST

    •  We are in the golden age of right wing (8+ / 0-)

      economics. This is another measure of their victory.

    •  It's overpriced because CA doesn't fund it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      adequately. Are you suggesting that's a reason to give up funding it altogether?

      We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

      by denise b on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 11:22:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, but cearly the Gov and Regents need to reasess (0+ / 0-)

        ...the mission and purpose for UC.

        Perhaps the initiative process can penetrate the power structure.

        The Regents should be replaced with a responsive pedestrian structure (e.g., 1 year appointment, revolving appointees from each town, school, or zip code)

        Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

        by kck on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:09:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The mission is a world class education (0+ / 0-)

          What do you mean by reassess?

          Create a university system with much lower standards?

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:42:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, "a world class education" for whom? (0+ / 0-)

            Average Ca residents, surely every qualifying grad, should be able to attend the state university affordably, without debt. The Regents' generation had zero tuition. Are professors being paid in the millions? I don't think so. IMO, public colleges and universities are national assets and should be paid for by income and business taxes, not tuition. However funded though, an affordable "world class education" for all academically qualified Ca HS grads should be the mission.

            Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

            by kck on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 12:49:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I clearly agree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              that it needs to be better funded, but you seemed to reply to someone that was making that same point by saying that its mission needs to be reassessed. That to me means something quote different than better funding.

              Its mission should be quite clearly to serve California students with access to higher education. Through better funding. That's the current mission.

              The Regents however are not the ones cutting funding. The politicians are the ones cutting funding.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 01:27:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  The GOP depends on ignorance... (9+ / 0-)

    and only survives if the electorate is uneducated and misinformed.  So, OF COURSE, they only want the 1% to go to college!  80% of them are from REPUBLICAN families!

  •  I am of course old enough to remember tuition (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JMoore, Bernie68, Anna M

    at $300 a full-time term.

    Just six years ago, tuition at the University of California was $5357. Tuition is currently $12,192. According to current proposals, it will be $22,068 by 2015-2016.
    even with adjustments the cost of a university education at the  top national (yes, top) undergraduate institution for in-state residents should not have changed so radically, especially with technological improvements. Recall that in different years there have been proposal floated to remove undergraduates or at least lower-division undergraduates from the UC system on a model similar to what used to be the model in Florida of junior/senior colleges.

    There are better solutions and yes, if UC takes out-of-state students they should pay private tuition rates so Berkeley students from any other state ( with perhaps exceptions for Nevada/Oregon reciprocity who qualify ( yes there's be a serious quota if even any could do it without establishing prior state residency) would pay Stanford level tuition (45000), hence subsidizing poorer California students.

    other options are possible including reorganization of the community college system to offer different baccalaureate degrees like SUNY does.

    there are solutions, there needs to be leadership and political will

    I am off my metas! Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03)

    by annieli on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:40:56 PM PST

  •  Breaks a mother's heart (21+ / 0-)

    My oldest works two jobs and carries a full class load...I help when I can but it's so hard...

    Last night, he was upset because he is partnered with a classmate on a project that has to be completed together to get a passing grade before the holiday break...

    The classmate (a frat boy) emailed my son and told him that he had spent the weekend partying and that he had to head out early to spend Thanksgiving with his family in the Bahamas and he was thanking my son ahead of time for doing both halves of the assignment....

    This is not the 1st time this has happened to him and it always is a student who has more time on their hands than my poor kid...

    The 1% want the rest of our kids there to do the work study jobs that help the colleges save money and to fetch and carry for their 1% chidren so they don't have to strain themselves...and the indentured servitude never ends.

    “And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.” ~ Abraham Lincoln

    by JMoore on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:41:46 PM PST

  •  There's a poison ivy league pun in here somewhere. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JMoore, sayitaintso, happymisanthropy

    (damn you 99% dastardly dandelions)

    "There's nothing in the dark that's not there when the lights are on" ~ Rod Serling

    by jwinIL14 on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:42:27 PM PST

  •  skilled workers vs. lawyers and MBAs (10+ / 0-)

    In the short run, it's no contest, but in the long run, I'd bet on the skilled workers: the men - and women - who actually make and fix things.  They could do it all without us; they could "go Galt" and bring it all crashing down on our heads.  The 1% owe their position to their ownership of society, not any special skills (other than being psychopaths).  Take that away, and they have nothing: no ability to make us serve them and support them with our labor.  And at the end of the day, we outnumber their goons in uniform.

    Do you know why they call it the American Dream? Because it only happens when you're asleep.

    by Visceral on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:45:18 PM PST

    •  And, as a lawyer, I am trying to learn to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, Odysseus

      "do things" too.  I'm becoming more and more involved in the "maker" and "open source" hardware and software movement, although it will be self-taught.

      Liberals: Taking crap for being right since before you were born. - Driftglass (and the amazing Professional Left Podcast at

      by briefer on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:57:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wow, really? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That's outrageous! How do they justify it? I knew tuition was going up, but that's completely insane.

    by Therapy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:49:44 PM PST

  •  Add that to the growing drum beat from the Right (0+ / 0-)

    saying that getting a college education is for losers.

    Liberals: Taking crap for being right since before you were born. - Driftglass (and the amazing Professional Left Podcast at

    by briefer on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:54:32 PM PST

  •  Just wait (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stolen water, ColoTim, akeitz, Matt Z

    A propos this, I won't be the least bit surprised when California sells the community college system to DeVry or Kaplan or U of Phoenix, and the CSU system to whoever doesn't buy the Community College system.  Needless to say, none of the credits will transfer to anywhere else.

    All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:55:33 PM PST

  •  I don't know (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    that's kind of leap.
    Tuition increases aren't mandated by the 1%, and the tuition loan progam itself increases the inflationary pressure on tuition.

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 02:56:54 PM PST

  •  thomas jefferson and abraham lincoln (9+ / 0-)

    advocated free college.

    california's system used to be tuition free. reagan killed it.

    our one demand? return what was stolen.

    by stolen water on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:03:38 PM PST

  •  To all (ok 1) who say you just don't want to pay (5+ / 0-)

    does that mean that you don't want your tax dollars

    - funding research in innovative technologies?

    - funding research in disease?

    - providing higher education at a reasonable cost to overseas transfer students (who come here and spend money and return home with favorable views of the US?)

    - ensuring that the most competent get educated, not just the most priveledged (anyone for educating Ayn Rand's next Atlas?  Anyone?  Buehler?)

    - professionalizing civil servants like police detectives, district attorneys, soldiers, social workers, teachers, health inspectors, and civil engineers?

    - ensuring that there is viable competition in the higher education industry?

    - spur economic growth in a region?

    These are things that public universities do.  

    If "we just don't want our tax dollars to pay for their education" then why not disband the public universities in your state and be done with it?

    Could it be that public universities are very useful tools for economic development?  

    •  They probably feel the research should be done (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, akeitz, Matt Z, pgm 01

      at private companies rather than at the public trough.  That way, the patents are private and the money is kept in private hands.

      •  What they don't understand is that Universities (0+ / 0-)

        can research things that a corporation would never touch.  There are many interesting things that should be researched that we currently have no way to make money off of.  A corporation cannot just give money in pursuit of knowledge, the corporation's goal is to make money and they have to have a financial reason to pursue research and development.  The shortsighted greed of the Republicans will destroy this nation, by the time they realize just how much they need the government it might be too late to do anything.

  •  I don't get it. (0+ / 0-)

    My Ron Paul friend was actually at Occupy Oakland this weekend, but buys into all the bullshit Ron Paul says about getting rid of federal student loans because he thinks the "federal government" can only do wrong.

  •  actually they do want them to go to school (6+ / 0-)

    its creates debt slavery right off the bat.

    Debt is what they want, its the 21st century chains.

    Bad is never good until worse happens

    by dark daze on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:14:46 PM PST

    •  Tuitions in public schools need to be capped (0+ / 0-)

      as well as other expenses, because these loans, both public and private, are subsidizing the colleges, and the more college has been seen as an inelastic need, the more the colleges have just shoved those tuitions right on up.

      Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:42:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a right wing meme (0+ / 0-)

        that these loans subsidize the colleges and send tuitions up.

        What sends tuition up is lack of state subsidy.

        Some schools are now at 4% taxpayer money in the overall budget.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:44:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What is right-wing about a cap? (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not saying funding hasn't been decreased at all...but your figure does not note how much of that 96% was an increase (adjusted for inflation) from the college's inception, or 10 years ago, or whatever.

          Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

          by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:10:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Schools have seen 30% of their (0+ / 0-)

            budgets cut.

            There have been studies into this phenomenon. The driver is cuts in state subsidies.

            The whole "student loans" inflate tuition is a right-wing meme that has penetrated deeply, so that we can starve students of federally subsidized loans, loans which are now fully serviced by the gov't and which all fall under the IBR program.

            Whereas privately-financed loans do not.


            I wrote a diary about this in the link above.

            Just some food for thought. In the mid 1980s, the cap on subsidized student loans per year was $3k. It's now $5.5k. That's not a big rise. But right now subsidized loans are under attack. I maintain that these loans are still affordable for most students especially given the IBR program. It's the private loans, the ones that stand to gain as congress attacks the student loan program, that are poisonous for students.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:19:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not attacking federally-subsidized loans.

              I'm saying the mass availability of loans (subsidized or not, most are somehow backed by the gov) are subsidizing the institutions and enabling them to charge higher tuition rates, whether they are expanding their academic services or not.

              I'm also not EXCLUDING funding cuts at all, by no means. Remember though, it's not really a "cut" if it's "less of an increase".

              It's not a "meme" to say that anything subsidized will then almost 100% of the time have a price rise. When we subsidized ethanol, for example.....corn prices rose.

              Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

              by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:37:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I showed you the studies that (0+ / 0-)

                dismissed the idea.

                The % of loans is higher for 2 reasons: For-Profit Colleges that now make up fully 20% of the college loan market, and the cost of private institutions which, dollar for dollar, are rising much faster than tuition at public institutions.

                The average at the publics is still $7k.

                But if you look at the total indebtedness of public school students as opposed to a decade ago, the increased rates are right in line with the cuts in funding.

                You shouldn't look at tuition rises for this comparison. You should be looking at the cost per student. That's the fundamental number. Then account for the increase in costs due to health insurance packages, maintaining need-blind programs, and new technology. I mention these three because these are the costs that are growing in terms of the studies. Faculty pay is down.

                You've also confused cuts with increases. Let me say this again to you: funding has been cut by an average of 30%. That is NOT an increase. It's a cut.

                It is a meme since it was designed by Horowitz's outfit who, together with some rightwing heavy-hitters, are funding rags pushing this meme. To ill effect.

                I urge you to look at the studies I point to in my link.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:57:13 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  A poorly educated populace is more malleable (6+ / 0-)

    Just sayin'...

    "If we want to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, we need to reduce the number of our senators dependent on fossil fuel contributions." - Rodney Glassman

    by Darryl House on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:20:58 PM PST

  •  Actually, college is a big business for the 1%.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    akeitz, Tam in CA, melo, scarvegas

    and the banks as long as they can keep thos private loans flowing and keep parents and students convinced that their kids should finance $34K a year to live in a dorm with a ceilling that leaks for a private college that is supposedly "prestigious" but graduates most four year degrees after six years of college.  I'm speaking from experience.  Once recruited, these colleges yank the initial teaser scholarship quickly for kids who don't receive the freshman supports they touted during recruitment.  Then the process of "but you can get it back" begins, which is nearly impossible upon examination of the proportion of students who lose their scholarships which I did too late.  The truth is that advisors are hard to come by and unavailable, kids schedule classes incorrectly due to stringent rules about prerequisites and have to repeat courses they couldn't get to talk to their advisor about b/c he/she did not answer repeated phone calls and e-mails.  The supposed student "support" consists of student RA's in buildings who are rarely there.  No adult supervision.  The security detail is not only anti-student, there is major drug industry being run right out of the dorms.  Yes, for $34K a year.  During my son's time in school there was a murder of one student, and reported and unreported rapes for $34K a year.   Then, there are professors who grade subjectively, and fail most of their students.  Having finally pulled my son out of this university, Hofstra, after four years of repeated failure for which we now owe the price of a house...well, I'm convinced that it's a very big  vanity school, especially since he is far from alone in his story about Hofstra.  The more I talk to other college students and parents the more I realize its nationwide.  The 1% have a big industry in what I'm now calling "fake education".  The only good thing to come out of any of this is that they will soon have exhausted the middle class entirely and will be unable to sustain as kids across the country, with their parents, default on their loans.  

  •  And that's what most of today's educational (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, esquimaux

    "reform" is intended to produce.  A high level of very low level education for everyone but those who can afford a quality private education.

    99%er. 100% opposed to fundamentalist/neoconservative/neoliberal oligarchs.

    by blueoasis on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:30:08 PM PST

  •  Markos, then there's the problem of TV adverts... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, akeitz, Cordyc

    for "colleges" or "institutes" and all that tripe. These are naturally for-profit programs that are not at all about educating students but instead removing money from their pockets. Professors? Oh please. They are, if anything, adjunct faculty that are payed only for contact hours and are not eligible as contractors for health, dental or any other coverage that traditional prof's would naturally expect.

    These unis in the adverts on non-network TV (Eastwood College, Food Institute, University of Phonics, not their real names, but you get the drift) engage in hyperbole, emotional hijacking and bulletproof contracts.

    It is what was covered in College, Inc. the documentary.

    So, the 1%ers want the 99% to go to college all right, but not to get edumakated. ;0)

    Ugh. --UB.

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

    by unclebucky on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:30:14 PM PST

  •  They want a corporation, to make $$ (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TracieLynn, dancerat, melo

    That is what the administration are doing. They are effective too. Chancellor Katehi's salary went up 75K from the previous guy, to 400K plus massive perks.

    They increase tuitions.

    Look, they gave me $1.80 per student for supplies this Semester and raised student fees for the 10th time in a decade, more or less.

    Yudof's house is a mansion.

    They are behaving like a private corporation.

    That's what's going on.

    They're not CONCERNED with education at all.

    Just making money.

  •  There's no way the USA stays a superpower (5+ / 0-)

    if only 1% of the population goes to school.

    It's a death sentence to the empire if this course is kept.

    It's a complete country-killer. It's that bad.

  •  kos is already behind the curve (7+ / 0-)
    Just six years ago, tuition at the University of California was $5357. Tuition is currently $12,192. According to current proposals, it will be $22,068 by 2015-2016.

    My daughter just started at UCI.  The tuition for this year is already over 14K.  Adding room & board and books then you're looking at 30K for the three quarters. Then you need money for essentials and to fly home (or find somewhere else to stay) during periods where the dorms are closed, like the coming 1-month winter break.
    Without some big subsidies, students will have to make 40K/year at the minimum to support themselves through colleges.

    •  UConn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      for in-state

      Tuition     $8,256
      University & Student Fees     $2,414
      Residence Hall (average)     $5,918
      University Meals (7-day program)     $5,132
      Estimated Yearly Expenses*     $21,720

      Now if you go to a regional Campus (no housing and no food plans)
      Tuition     $8,256
      University & Student Fees     $618
      Estimated Yearly Expenses*     $8,874

      You save money by going to a regional campus or by finding cheaper housing, however tuition is no where near what the UC system charges.  Connecticut also has the State University system which is separate from UConn, and those tend to be slightly cheaper, as well.

      •  My son's year at CCSU cost $18K with room/board (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pgm 01

        Slightly cheaper but out of reach for most middle class families without taking on debt.

        Occupy is not fighting for the rights of a few to sleep outdoors, but for the right of millions to sleep indoors. (VanJones - I think from a tweet).

        by Actbriniel on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:39:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  i'm a product of the CSU system myself (7+ / 0-)

    and when i entered san diego state back in 1977, the fees (because calling it tuition back then was kind of a dirty word) were no more than $91 per semester.

    hope springs eternal and DAMN is she getting tired!

    by alguien on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:46:54 PM PST

  •  they are perfectly ok (8+ / 0-)

    with you going to college. But they want you to borrow $100 grand to do so.

    That was the problem with the CA system.  it allowed for people to get an affordable education and not have debt.

    And guess what well educated young people without debt can do?  Organize.  Fight the good fight.

    Tough to do when you have $100K in debt at the age of 21.

    "I'll hold my nose and vote but I won't hold my nose and canvass or call or donate." Some Dkos Comment

    by onemadson on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:51:02 PM PST

  •  This Is Specifically Why Governor Reagan Tore Into (12+ / 0-)

    the CA higher ed system 45 yrs ago

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 03:57:58 PM PST

  •  The Plan is Debt Peonage (13+ / 0-)

    I like Kos' sentiment but disagree with the conclusion.

    They do want everyone to go the school - they just want to guarantee that going to school locks you into a cycle of debt peonage that forces you to pay your loans forever.

    And, with the increase in tuition - but with no corresponding increase in caps on federal loan guarantees or federal Pell grants - families are forced into the arms of private lenders who get to exploit students forever (since student loan debt is non-retireable via bankruptcy).

    I'm 33 and $50,000 in hock.


    "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

    by turthlover on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:04:33 PM PST

    •  My kid is 24 and $40,000 in hock (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      turthlover, akeitz, gmb, Actbriniel

      for a grad degree. She wants to go back for another degree, and her boyfriend is in law school with his own loans.

      She has three part-time jobs at the moment: one in retail, one secretarial, and one tutoring low income kids. They pay better than minimum wage (not a lot), but together rarely add up to 40 hours.

      She had no undergrad debt.

      It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

      by badger on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:25:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I sympathize (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, akeitz, Mr SeeMore

        I teach at an urban public university and I see everyday the hardship - and debt - my students are in to be able to get an education.

        I'm not sure if they know I'm one of them. At least my debt was from attending an elite public liberal arts college and getting a PhD. And I'm employed even if not particularly well-paid!

        "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

        by turthlover on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:41:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  $40,00 for the grad degree alone? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Or BA/BS+MA/Msc? If the latter, that's less than the median I've heard of MA graduates.

        •  A 12 month M. Litt. in the UK (0+ / 0-)

          Tuition was less than out-of-state tuition at a US public university, and a lot less than a private university. Living expenses were a little higher, but overall it was cheaper to do a year in the UK than in the US, even with travel and shipping. That was 2 semesters of coursework plus thesis.

          That may have changed, since I think there's been a big tuition jump at her UK school too.

          She didn't have any undergrad debt.

          It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

          by badger on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 09:01:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm 40 and about $150,000 in hock (0+ / 0-)

      and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.

      Calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate" still doesn't excuse defense of evil beliefs, opinions, and actions.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 05:16:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why would they want that? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    For one thing, the removal of state funding has put enormous pressure on Universities to lower admission standards and increase enrollment.

    I think they're happy to have people enrolling in college.  What they want is 1) to not have to pay for it, 2) to support the student loan industry, and 3) to force the universities to look for funding from private industry in exchange for allowing those entities to direct research agendas and obtain ip from the university.

    To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

    by sneakers563 on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:07:42 PM PST

  •  Real data on minimum wage and tuition with time... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, Egalitare, akeitz, elfling, Ahianne


    It used to be possible to work your way through without debt.

    •  That's a good comparison (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peachcreek, akeitz, Laconic Lib, Ahianne
      Put another way —perhaps more realistically for someone trying to juggle work and schoolwork — a student in 1981-82 could make enough money to pay for college by working just nine hours a week during the school year and full-time during breaks
      So what if a student today worked full-time during breaks, nine hours a week during the school year and could transfer every penny to the college bursar’s office?

      He or she would end up more than $11,000 short.

      from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

      by Catte Nappe on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:18:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Take heart, at least a little (0+ / 0-)

        That which cannot be sustained, will not. This situation will end somehow.

        It's just a question of how.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:33:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not to mention when. (0+ / 0-)

          I see two options:

          1) Everyone defaults on their student loans and the loan bubble bursts, causing even more economic damage than the housing bubble did. Nothing improves for debtors, but creditors begin to go belly-up. Other creditors buy up the bad loans and continue to harass graduates into their graves.

          2) The loans are forgiven by the government (or at least made bankruptable) and students are able to get a clean slate and start building their lives.

          I don't see a third option.

          Calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate" still doesn't excuse defense of evil beliefs, opinions, and actions.

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 05:19:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •   Well they could join the miltary (0+ / 0-)

    and if they aren't too damaged when they get out (from PTSD, toxic chemical exposure, IEDs, suicide, sexual assault, war disabilities, depleted uranium, etc etc), they could use the GI Bill to pay for their college.   It's always an option for the desperate.

    •  I got my start in the military (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akeitz, Anna M

      I joined the military during the early years of the all-volunteer military when there was no G.I. Bill.   We had a post-service educational benefits program that required a service member to contribute $2,700.00 in order to receive $7,100.00 in benefits (this program was known as the Veterans Educational Assistance Program).   Most people did not participate in the program because a new recruit earned a little over $300.00 per month before taxes (that's why the military replaced this program with the Montgomery G.I. Bill for new recruits who entered active duty after 6/30/1985).

      With the above said, I came out of the Navy earning more than most college graduates because I had five years of software development experience at a time when most people had never touched a computer.   The skills that I gained in the Navy paid for undergraduate and graduate degrees in computer science.  They also made me a single-income homeowner by the time that I was twenty-six years old (the mid-eighties).

      The GOP has become the "Jerry Springer" party.

      by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:51:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I had the VEAP also.  I got my B.S. degree while still in the Army, taking 1-2 courses at a time.  I got a lot of credits through the Defense Language Institute (Russian) which was harder than any college course I ever went through.

        If I had to do it today I think would try to get into 35P in Chinese Mandarin.   I expect that Chinese will be an important language to be able to speak in the near future.

        •  Crytologic Technician - Interpretive (CTI) was my (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          second choice.  

          Military schools are much more difficult than college.  The pace of instruction is much quicker.  Candidates with poor time management skills did not make it through my program.  

          The GOP has become the "Jerry Springer" party.

          by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:53:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I won't join an organization that is organized (0+ / 0-)

      around killing people. I find the military morally reprehensible.

      Calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate" still doesn't excuse defense of evil beliefs, opinions, and actions.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 05:19:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Education only puts stupid ideas (7+ / 0-)

    in people's heads.  Ideas about fairness and equality and repeating historical patterns, and maybe even an understanding of basic economics.  Things were so much easier when the peasants were stupid and blamed themselves for their own poverty.

    A "moderate" in this environment is a person who splits the difference between half-assed government and a total shitpile.

    by Dinclusin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:18:04 PM PST

    •  Ahh, the Khmer Rouge solution (0+ / 0-)

      Send the college students (and their liberal professors) out to work in the fields  - to replace the illegal immigrants.   Pol Pot would have been proud.

      Warning: Comment may contain sarcasm

  •  The great conservative lie (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    akeitz, Tam in CA, esquimaux

    was that after they destroyed access to the middle class for everyone without a college degree, they wouldn't go after the rest of us.

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:29:46 PM PST

  •  Kos (7+ / 0-)

    The loans and grants are what is responsible for the high prices!

    I've posted about this before, but the mechanism essentially works like this. You can afford to pay, say, 5k/year for college working at Burger King or something. Tuition is $5k. Normally, you'd pay the tuition, graduate, and be done.

    However, the government comes along and 'helps' you with a $5k loan. Great, right? Not exactly, because the college just turns around and raises tuition to 10k! Now you have to flip burgers to pay the $5k and you have a $5k loan on top of it!

    Even 'non-profit' institutions will find ways to waste the extra tuition money (nicer facilities, gyms, big buildings, basketball courts, unreasonably high staff salaries and/or benefits, etc).

    If student loans were sharply curtailed (for example, by making them dischargable in bankruptcy), a lot of this bullshit would go away. Northeastern wouldn't charge $50k/year for tuition, because fucking nobody has that kind of cash (some rich people do, but there aren't enough of them to populate even a fraction of all the colleges out there).

    Tuition would drop like a rock, because it would have to. What are the colleges going to do, go out of business and be unemployed? Hardly, they would find ways to survive by cutting costs, which they have close to zero incentive to do right now. Their only incentive is to continue to whine to the government to ask for ever more loans to impoverish their graduates in the name of 'affordability'.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:34:14 PM PST

    •  You have some valid thought there (7+ / 0-)

      However, from my observation the biggest change in costs at public universities is the drastically shrinking amount the states put into the budget, so more and more and more has to be handled by the student.

      from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

      by Catte Nappe on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:14:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The student is only able to handle it... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        soros, cap76, thinkdouble

        ...because of the loans, Without the loans, the colleges would have to do what any other business has to do faced with a revenue drop, become leaner and meaner, cut staff perhaps, cut salaries/benefits, cut useless or unpopular programs, etc.

        If the state thinks that high education is important, it should fund it (while demanding cost controls on recipients of the funding). If it doesn't for whatever reason (Repubs in office, bad economy, etc), the burden shouldnt fall on the student. The college will just have to cut until students can afford it.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:19:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  No. Just no. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Costs go up>tuition has to go up, because there aren't state or federal funds coming in to cover them anymore, thanks to systematic defunding of all governmental bodies. How is a school calculating how any student is going to pay his/her tuition before letting him/her through the doors in the first place? Tuitions are set long before the applications are accepted. You are putting the cart before the horse with your argument.
      If you have any evidence, otoh, for your supposition, I'd like to see it.
      As far as what would happen if loans were eliminated, i would think not much, except far fewer Americans and no poor Americans would be able to go to college. Most public schools lose money per student in terms of simply tuition fees. They stay "in business" due to other sources of revenue. The school in question might actually make more/lose less money if loans were eliminated and their student body was reduced in number; many public schools take in new students at a loss overall as well.

      •  What incentive do colleges have to cut costs? (0+ / 0-)

        Just answer that simple question. Every single time colleges are faced with cutting costs, the response always is to demand more government education funding.

        Now don't get me wrong, I am in favor of government funding for higher education, but a dollar cut from waste is superior to a dollar spent extra, especially when the extra dollar is used to impoverish a future graduate.

        You say the colleges operate at break even, I agree, that's what they are designed to do because they are 'non profits'. But cut 20% (say) of their revenue stream and I guarantee they will find some savings, because they will be forced to.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:13:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Understand, at UC (0+ / 0-)

          they have had state funding cut for many years. It is not that costs are increasing and they want more support to cover those costs.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:41:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They have also really increased the breadth and (0+ / 0-)

            service they've been offering, as well, as have most colleges.

            Private schools have been raising their tuitions too, and since they don't receive any funding outside of research grants and public subsidization of student loans, I think that hurts your argument here. You're not wrong that funding has been cut, or at least "increased less".

            Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

            by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:50:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most private colleges receive large (0+ / 0-)

              grants from their foundations etc. also, which can be considered the equivalent of state funding. Those can waver somewhat, but are far more stable than what state schools get from their governments.

            •  Private schools depend on endowments (0+ / 0-)

              which are largely invested in the stock and bond markets. Research funding also has been a bit more scarce lately.

              But you're right that private school economics are different, and vary much more college to college.

              Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

              by elfling on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:05:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  It doesn't hurt the argument at all (0+ / 0-)

              Private schools have been raising tuition in order to keep their need-blind admissions policy going to redistribute funds to students who can't afford it.

              That's how it works.

              For the first time, private tuition has exceeded the actual cost of educating every student. That means there's a funding recycling mechanism at work that drives up prices.

              Remove it, and tuition drops. And only rich kids then go to private school.

              Some schools just announced huge 10% drops in tuition.

              My reaction: they just got rid of their need-blind admissions policies.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:51:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  What makes you think they need to cut costs? (0+ / 0-)

          Are the buildings getting better as they age? Are the computers repairing and replacing themselves at no cost? Has deflation really occurred so that the same level of "service" has become cheaper somehow?
          By asking for them to cut instead of increase revenue, you are arguing for "austerity" in our educational system. If you are a fan of the Shock Doctrine, then, you really do need to reconsider the answers that gave you the "Left" part of your political alignment test.

          •  Re (0+ / 0-)
            Are the buildings getting better as they age? Are the computers repairing and replacing themselves at no cost? Has deflation really occurred so that the same level of "service" has become cheaper somehow?

            Everyone needs to cut costs, all the time. The private sector is constantly searching for ways to cut costs. Universities need to be doing this as well. All institutions, public and private, need to be investigating how to provide the most services at the least cost.

            In any case, your argument only supports educational costs increasing at the rate of inflation, not several times the rate like it is now.

            By asking for them to cut instead of increase revenue, you are arguing for "austerity" in our educational system.

            What revenue? They are already consuming massive amounts of money based on loans from soon-to-be-impoverished graduates.

            Also, do you really think that any effort to cut costs is "austerity" and must be opposed at all times? This is a bizarre and economically untenable position to take.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 08:57:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then the question becomes, (0+ / 0-)

              what makes you think they haven't already cut costs to where raising revenue makes the most sense? Look around--most schools are only hiring recent grads (read: cheapest possible that can be found) to teach all but the most advanced classes--part time, no less--where most students learn. And as most people realize, it is payroll where the bulk of costs go.
              You start from a position that they are creatures of waste, but what I see are institutions where concerns of economy and (this should bug you the most, I'm guessing) efficiency are misguided in the first place. I don't want my school systems to be places where the bottom dollar is the dollar.
              In short, I totally and vehemently disagree that "everyone needs to cut costs, all the time." To me that is bizarre thinking, and also runs counter to all historical timelines for any endeavors that have succeeded. "You gotta spend money to make money" is not a hackneyed, outdated cliche, it is a truism. And while the phrase is not literally related to the non-profit world of education, nobody ever succeeded in producing something world-changing by cutting costs, and that is what we expect from our schools.

      •  I think there's some of both (0+ / 0-)

        I promise you that if SAT scores of applicants started going down, or if one of the elite colleges started seeing too many of their best applicants choosing other schools, that they'd either increase their grant packages or lower tuition. Probably more of the former.

        You see Harvard doing that recently, for example. They increased their grants. That's why sometimes the most pricey schools are sometimes actually less expensive than the public schools now.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:19:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But grants don't satisfy Sparhawk's (0+ / 0-)

          argument. Only loans do.

          •  Grants are not as bad as loans (0+ / 0-)

            But they both contribute to the same dynamic of higher education prices. At least grants are government funding, however, and are nominally controlled by representatives of taxpayers. Loans have no such controls: just whatever the student feels like taking out. If students want to take out $100k in loans for a Women's Studies degree, nothing stops them.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:02:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not true in re: loans, unless (0+ / 0-)

              they've changed in character since I was in school last (10 years ago.) There are indeed limits to what you can borrow.
              Your offensive denigration of liberal arts degrees is noted, by the way. You must be very happy in the modern MBA/CEO-run US . . .

      •  Colleges are notoriously inefficient (0+ / 0-)

        The facilities are used half the year.

        Professors might teach three hours a week.

        •  Have you been to a university lately? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pgm 01, Ahianne, esquimaux

          That their facilities might be used to generate revenue in summer is a realization they had decades ago. :-)

          Science faculty is still doing research - often with the assistance of affordable student labor, who in turn lives in the dorms.

          Public universities often have summer sessions - and would have more if they could afford to do so.

          A professor that teaches 3 hours a week still has to grade papers - potentially hundreds of papers - and most likely has other duties.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:39:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not where I went to school. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Uconn has the Spring and Fall Semesters, Summer Sessions, and intersession classes.  UConn will have Winter Intersession, for example, Dec.  27, 2011 - Jan. 13, 2012, 3 weeks of courses that are not watered down just highly compressed.  

          As for Professors teaching three hours, some classes are taught more by grad students or TAs but many classes also have the Professor teaching every class and having office hours every week.  It should also be noted that at least at UConn, professors were required to continue research in addition to teaching classes.

        •  Right wing BS (0+ / 0-)

          Colleges are actually highly efficient, and studies have been done proving this to be so.

          3 hours a week?

          What's your occupation by the way?

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:53:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Some of my fellow students (0+ / 0-)

        used their computer expertise to get the annual incomes of the professors and their home addresses.

        An income of about $30,000/year was a pretty good income in 1977.

        The home addresses would generally have been suitable for the society Blue Book.

        •  Would you rather university professors (0+ / 0-)

          be paid more poorly? What kind of educational system are you going to get then? Do you realize how long and how hard they have to work to get F/T work these days?

        •  You don'y know what you are talking about (0+ / 0-)

          Average salary for a professor in the USA is low 50k.

          Average time of training toward tenure is 20 years. 10 years of Phd, 2-3 years of post-grad, visiting, fellowship, 7 years to tenure.

          Average pay during those 20 years is $15k.

          Totally ridiculous what you're peddling today.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:55:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The University said (0+ / 0-)

        it cost around $6,600/year to educate a student and the tuition was around $3,800/year in 1977.

    •  oh, not this shit again (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      atana, Ahianne, esquimaux

      Public schools don't have to follow your libertarian theories about the market. Up until Reagun, tuition was free in California. I guess that means students worked for free in those days.

      A man, a plan, a canal, Panama

      by Karl Rover on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:15:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Like I said (0+ / 0-)

        What incentive do colleges have to cut costs with endless loan money coming in? Just answer the question.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:21:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it's not endless (0+ / 0-)

          and your assumption that there is profligate spending is I think off base.

          There's an easy way to change the incentives: make universities carry their own loans. Mine did.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:20:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Karl, would you like to return to admission rates (0+ / 0-)

        and educational offerings that the schools had until Raygun?

        Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:52:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  what would be wrong with that? (0+ / 0-)

          Was the rate of attendance lower with $0 tuition? The whole idea of ever-raising tuition was to force out students from the lower economic strata.

          A man, a plan, a canal, Panama

          by Karl Rover on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 08:38:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't have any problem with it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Honestly I don't think every state school needs to have every program under the sun, especially if there are several state schools to choose from. In Europe many of the unis are quite subject-focused.

            Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

            by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 11:12:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yes and no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There are some other factors in play - more kids going to college, less state support for schools.

      But you're right that they wouldn't raise their tuition if they didn't have enough people applying.

      Part of the philosophy is to try to get more money from students who CAN pay - that is, the intent was to raise tuition AND raise Cal Grants etc at the same time, so that families who were in the 1% would pay full freight, and theoretically not affecting lower income families. Private universities have done some of this too.

      It sounds reasonable in theory, but I'm not sure it always works out. If the family cannot or will not put out what FAFSA thinks they should, the student is in a world of hurt.

      And, much more "aid" has become loans that perhaps was meant to be grants, especially with the stock market crushing endowments. That's the real culprit in the high loan debt.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:15:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right wing meme and total (0+ / 0-)


      This has been studied.

      It's totally false

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:48:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  with intellectual giants like (5+ / 0-)

    Rick (C-minus) Perry and George W (C-average) Bush, and of course the glowing intellect of Sarah (Scraped together a BA in Journalism after transferring from one state college to another), the one-percenters need to cut out as many meritorious poor scholars as they can.  If they try hard enough they can make our education system reflect the British educational system of the 17th century, where the sons of parsons attended Cambridge and earned their rooms as body servants to the nobility.

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:47:49 PM PST

  •  I am about to sink lots of money (4+ / 0-)

    getting a bachelors, and going to graduate school for sociology.

    I really hope its worth it :/

    They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

    by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:51:14 PM PST

    •  Uh (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soros, strangedemocracy

      Think very carefully about your choice of major. Sociology is stereotyped as a useless major.

      I'm not saying don't do sociology (well, I sort of am), but ask yourself the following questions and think fucking hard about the answers.

      - What career are you planning on going into with a sociology degree?
      - If a professorship, say, what are the statistics on sociology majors being placed into these kinds of programs? What are your odds of actually getting a job as a sociology professor? I it worth it?
      - What private sector jobs are available for sociology majors?
      - What does the average MA or PhD in sociology make after graduation? What does the median make?
      - How much in the way of loans are you planning on taking out? What percentage of your first year's salary are the total loans?
      - How many years will it take to pay the loans back?

      If you do not have satisfactory answers to these questions, I would strongly recommend you consider carefully the wisdom of going massively in debt for that major.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:41:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I already have an idea of what I want to do (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I want to teach sociology at the community college level, thats why I chose it.

        They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

        by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:55:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  and yes, its worth it to me (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I couldn't give a shit how much I get paid, as long as I can afford to survive for the rest of my life...I just want to teach college.

          They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

          by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:10:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Basing your decision on more than economics? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rexymeteorite, elfling

            Heresy, that's what that is. What if everybody did that? How would the Market respond!!

            -- We are just regular people informed on issues

            by mike101 on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:15:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I just want enough (0+ / 0-)

              to pay back my debts, live, and support my family.

              Other than that, I can do without lots of extra cash.

              They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

              by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:18:42 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You might not be able to even do that! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                If you don't play your cards right, you'll be another one of these OWS people demanding student loan forgiveness, and praying that it comes through because you don't know how you'll survive if it doesn't!

                Have the endless stories of people on this site complaining about being crushed by student loans made no impact on you at all? What makes you think you won't be one of these people?

                You are playing a very dangerous game here with your life! If you can't find a job you will be screwed. Even if you do find a job there is a high probability you will be screwed.  No one will help you other than maybe your family. Your major is very narrow and almost the single lowest paid major of any major.

                Heresy, that's what that is. What if everybody did that? How would the Market respond!!

                You know, I like sociology too. I really do. That's why I buy books on it with my engineering salary and read them in my spare time!

                You can decide to ignore economics all you want. Decide it isn't important, decide you're above it, whatever. Just don't come on here in 5 years with a tale of being $60k in debt and the government should forgive my loans. You have a choice now. It's your life, and if you screw it up, you've screwed it up. No one will help you.

                I apologize for my strident tone. However, I see a poster getting ready to make the same error that countless other posters on here have already made. They are buried in loans, have little to no income, and few prospects of making any. If a few strident words on my part can save you from that awful, soul chilling fate, then I feel that I must speak them.

                Again, I'm not saying don't do this, I'm saying to ask yourself why you are going to be more successful than others who tried it this way and failed. You may have a satisfactory answer, what do I know.

                Good luck whatever you decide.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:55:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  not everyone has the capacity to be an engineer. (3+ / 0-)

                  My talents lie elsewhere, outside of science, math and computers.

                  So what do I do, go into a major that I KNOW I will fail in, or go into one that I have some chance of success in...thats the decision I face RIGHT. NOW. Not five years down the road. Right now.

                  They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

                  by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:04:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  plus, there are careers (0+ / 0-)

                    you are making it out to be like I am going into russian literature, demonology, or art history. There are plenty of jobs in sociology.

                    marketing, academia, teaching, research, social work (and there is TONS of work in social work.), government etc etc etc

                    They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

                    by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:11:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sociology is the lowest paid major... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      ...out of all majors (it may have been supplanted recently, but it's still close to the bottom). All of the jobs you describe can and are done by Sociology majors, I agree, however they all share the fact that other majors are equally or more qualified for these positions (who would you hire for a marketing job, a sociology major or one of 50,000 marketing majors with resumes on your desk...?).

                      That's the problem: what specialized skills are you developing with Sociology that aren't superseded by some other major? You can say "well, I'm motivated and driven, that's my strength". Lots of motivated people are unemployed.

                      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                      by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:21:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Friend of mine just got his Ph.D. in Sociology (0+ / 0-)

                      and because he worked in demography, got a job with a private company as their statistician. Don't tell me there aren't jobs in sociology.

                      Calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate" still doesn't excuse defense of evil beliefs, opinions, and actions.

                      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 05:28:35 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  You could pick no major (0+ / 0-)

                    Or any number of other liberal arts majors with a better salary prospect than sociology. Or take survey courses in a number of areas and pick a major later.

                    Or, you could delay college until you have a better idea what you want to do. Or take a trade instead (plumbing, carpentry). Or do something like graphic arts, multimedia, etc.

                    You have to make the right decision for you. In the end if that's sociology, so be it. Just be aware that sociology is just about the lowest paid major out there, you know, for people who actually manage to get a job. Do the research yourself, you will see that I'm correct.

                    I'm just trying to impress upon you the gravity of the decision you are making and the major impact it will have on you in the future. I apologize if I have upset you, but I'd rather you hate my guts than be $65k in debt with no job in five years.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:14:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Lowest paying? (2+ / 0-)

                      uh no. I know for a fact thats dead wrong.

                      Full List
                      HIGHEST-EARNING MAJORS
                      Mining and Mineral Engineering
                      Metallurgical Engineering
                      Mechanical Engineering
                      Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering
                      Electrical Engineering
                      Chemical Engineering
                      Aerospace Engineering
                      Mathematics and Computer Sciences
                      Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration
                      Petroleum Engineering

                      LOWEST-EARNING MAJORS
                      Health and Medical Preparatory Programs
                      Visual and Performing Arts
                      Communication-Disorders Sciences and Services
                      Studio Arts
                      Drama and Theater Arts
                      Social Work
                      Human Services and Community Organizations
                      Theology and Religious Vocations
                      Early-Childhood Education
                      Counseling and Psychology


                      the only sociology degree on the lowest paying list is social work. And they help people which is a sight more fulfilling than having a fat paycheck at the end of the month.

                      the lowest paying major, according to this list is Art.

                      They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

                      by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:19:21 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  and picking "no major" is not possible for me (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      any more.

                      I am a transfer student from a community college. All of my core curriculum is done. Time is up. I have to chose a major this term.

                      and ya know what, debating you has made me happy and comfortable with my decision. thanks sparhawk.

                      They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

                      by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:21:22 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think even an engineering salary (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rexymeteorite, GoGoGoEverton

                  can cover $150k in loans.

                  Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                  by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:22:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Being a socio professor probably the best paying (0+ / 0-)

          job in sociology you can get.

          Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

          by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:53:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  of course it is worth it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I don't care what anyone says. i might advise you to double major in something along with it though. in fact I'd recommend an MSW over sociology, because i subscribe to the theory that grad level social workers are practicing sociologists. I have an MSW and work as a school social worker and it is a great, but very demanding job. And not every state requires them in schools. But training in sociology is very good prep for social work and a lot of other social sciences. Good luck with! By the way the pay is better than people think. Not great, but decent.

      •  My fiancee is going out for an MSW (0+ / 0-)

        thing is, I want to stay in academia...

        They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

        by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:04:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  PhD or DSW (0+ / 0-)

          are the academic credentials for social work research and academia. Perhaps you can consider some sort of joint MSW/Program in sociology as they do in some schools. i'm telling you, look into this further. i think you will be surprised at how your interest in sociology has practical overlap with professional and academic level social work. But best of luck with whatever you decide.

      •  I would recommend everyone get fluent in (0+ / 0-)

        a foreign language, or double-major in something that is related to will have a much better chance of always having a job, albeit maybe not always one that you want.

        Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:55:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Think about school in Europe (3+ / 0-)

      Can you speak a second language, even if poorly? My daughter is going to school in France (as an American) for about 286 euro a year. She's getting her Master's in Business.  Cost of living is very reasonable, the food is good and healthcare is covered for about 200 a year. If you are on a student visa, you can also work 20 hours a week.

      "Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

      by dancerat on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:51:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Master's or Bachelor's? (0+ / 0-)

        More courses are taught in English in Europe, though far more in the native language of the country. There are only a few cheap countries over there anymore for non-EU citizens unfortunately. France, Germany, Finland, Norway. The rest are quite expensive (yes, even Sweden and Denmark charge quite high tuition fees to non-EU students now).

    •  In a similar position (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I wanted to do a master's originally, but I took some time off and after spending several years thinking about it, I don't feel confident pursuing the master's version of my social science BA. Study after study just repeat the same thing. If tuition costs were lower, I may follow my heart, but it costs a fortune now so I'm looking for an option that has higher employment and pay potential that relates to my BA. Difficult.

      •  Well, I'll get my BA in soc (0+ / 0-)

        and see where it takes me from there.

        Grad school is a ways off, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

        They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

        by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 09:20:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Don't listen to Sparhawk (0+ / 0-)

      Right-wing memes aplenty about the uselessness of the Humanities.

      As though civil rights and liberal democracies popped up out of the blue!

      Lots of money? If you can afford private school, then great. Otherwise, if you mean public school tuition, then realize that the national average is still $7k. As for grad degrees, many MAs are fully funded and almost all Doctoral programs are totally funded so you won't have to spend your money.

      Don't listen to the naysayers.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:57:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Get even - be an electrician or plumber (6+ / 0-)

    and charge them a fortune........   the joke here in the burbs is that the local plumber is worth more than anyone else

    Reality is that many people should NOT be going to college.  Unless you have a trust fund, there are many degrees which, while improving your knowledge base, do NOTHING to make you more 'employable'.

    If you haven't looked at what your employment prospects are for the field you are studying you are a fool.  If you are incurring debt to get a degree that does not have the earning potential to pay off that debt, you are a fool.  If you've gotten a BA or BS and are unemployed and are incurring MORE debt to get an advanced degree you'd better make sure it makes you MORE employable - Law degrees and MBA's are often a waste of time and money - there are plenty of grads from mediocre schools that can't get jobs.

    Some areas of study are useful ONLY with advanced degrees and ONLY in academia.  If you are not absolutely BRILLIANT and at the top of your field, and can manage to get that education WITHOUT incurring debt, STUDY SOMETHING ELSE.

    The 'You NEED a college degree' BS has gotten people degrees that have done nothing to make them employable, gotten them into debt and kept them out of fields where they COULD make a good living.

    Traditionally the wealthy went to college BECAUSE they could afford it.  They didn't NEED a degree to be 'employable' - family contacts took care of that.  You had a 'meritocracy' in that the bright and intelligent and motivated COULD get a college degree in spite of their circumstances - and it meant something.

    But today - truth is that too many people go to college thinking 'education for education's sake' will make them employable.  It doesn't.

    I got an engineering degree BECAUSE I could get a job with it (and changed out of Civil Engineering because the economy stunk in the late 70's and that wouldn't get me a job).   I LIKED history and was good at it but what do you do with THAT?  Teach?  Go to Law School?   Those options meant another degree (and more money).

    Truth is - with hindsight - I'd have done BETTER with a trade    - earned more saved a fortune.  But I was the first in my family to go to college - the only kid in my family to do so.   I was SUPPOSED to go to college though it took me 6 years working on and off and going to school to do so (paying off loans for a decade).  As is I rehabbed houses all my life anyway.

    I know enough attorneys that say Law school was a mistake and waste of money - and others who got little out of college.  

    My own children will go to college - BUT we can pay for it (at least as of now) AND they are brilliant, at the top of their classes.   But if they had to take out loans or were mediocre in school.... There are better options.

    I'm astounded at how many tradesmen are barely competent and mediocre at what they do, awful  at business yet STILL make a damn good living.

    Life isn't fair but you should try to leave it fairer than you found it.

    by xrepub on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:53:36 PM PST

    •  And don't forget, their jobs can't be outsourced. (0+ / 0-)

      "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

      by AnnieR on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:42:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Plumbers need their own form of malpractice (0+ / 0-)

      insurance (unless they work for another plumber who has it) and it is expensive.

      I would recommend being an air-conditioning mechanic instead.

      Air-conditioning mechanics need special tools that keep the do-it-yourselfers at bay.

      Being an auto mechanic is another possibility. My local college trains Toyota (R) mechanics.

      My mother did her own plumbing when I was young and times were tough.

    •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

      But go back just 10, 20, 30 years and college was affordable. This is why our parents didn't warn us of the dire consequences because perhaps in their day, going to college wasn't necessary for decent employment, but those who did go graduated with little debt and better job potential. So, yes, now if you're a parent, you need to really stress that your child pursues something they like that also has high employment potential and isn't at risk for being sent overseas.

      On the other hand, a college degree is the new high school diploma, so if you don't have one, you're going to have even more difficulty getting a living wage job, a full time job with benefits when you have people graduating with college degrees applying for the same work.

      •  At the rate things change (0+ / 0-)

        no one should think they can predict what jobs are going to disappear in the future. Who would have ever thought 20 years ago that radiology and law could be outsourced to India? Or that there would be no or few opportunities for secretaries, or traditional librarians, or newspaper reporters, or travel agents? Or that consumer items would become so cheap that there are virtually no repair people anymore?

        I think we can assume that much of the so-called knowledge work that we've been pushing kids to prepare to do will either be outsourced or automated.

        The technological revolutions that we're living through make the future impossible to predict. We can maybe see 10 years down the road, but not much further. There will be many surprises. There always are.

        There's no advice I feel prepared to give young people except that demanding liberal arts courses - if you go to a decent school and work seriously at them - can giving you critical thinking and writing skills that not too many people have, even college graduates.

        We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

        by denise b on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 12:04:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm glad I got a degree in History (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      denise b

      It taught me to read, write and think.  I ended up with a career in high tech with several positions that called for and EE and MBA or experience.  I found that my training in History was a much better prep than my fellow workers with the "proper" degrees.  With the tech field always changing it was much better to have the reading and writing skills.

      Don't knock a Liberal Arts education.  It trains you for life.

    •  Typically I would agree with you, but the UE for (0+ / 0-)

      those with 4-year degrees or better is: 4.4%.

      Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 06:04:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This a lot of mularkey dressed up as "truth (0+ / 0-)

      -telling."  Word of caution, your brilliant children may got to college and find out that they aren't so brilliant anymore.   The number of former high school students at the top of their class now looking for work is high and growing.

      People don't snap their fingers and become tradesmen.  You need the skill, you often need the start up capital and you need the jobs - not every plumber is making 100k a year.   Some struggle to find work as the construction business dries up.  

      The fact of the matter is that a college degree from a respectable university does boost your earning potential.  There is nothing stopping a college graduate for one day becoming a plumber.  A non-college graduate will never hold a upper level job in an office.  Why sentence yourself to a lifestyle when you are 18 years old?

      We should not get used to the idea that college is only for rich kids.  That is classism and the hallmark of an inequitable society.  The United States is suppose to about the possibility that your hardwork and smarts can lead to upword mobility - not a get in where you fit in attitude.  

  •  Discretionary Spending (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    akeitz, AnnieR

    Tuition is going up at public colleges and universities because funding for higher education is discretionary spending.  States have the choice between cutting higher education or non-mandatory public services. Universities are trying to offset cuts in state funding by increasing revenue generated via research contracts and grants.

    The GOP has become the "Jerry Springer" party.

    by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:53:44 PM PST

  •  Why would slaves need to be smart? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, AnnieR, mrsgoo

    I think Newt is onto something.  Just lock all the kids in the school and let them educate themselves.  No cost at all.  "Lord of the Flies" as the new educational model.

    Still enjoying my stimulus package.

    by Kevvboy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:59:10 PM PST

  •  Takes a lot of money to pay (0+ / 0-)

    Professors and staff.  Here is UC Davis salaries. Didn't realize you could make so much teaching college.  

    UC Davis salaries

    Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 04:59:24 PM PST

    •  Most of those professors are medical doctors (6+ / 0-)

      Those compensation figures are misleading.   Compensation packages for professors at most medical schools are derived from three funding sources.  Each professor receives a base salary from the state for teaching, which is minor fraction of their total compensation.  Base salaries are offset with funding from medical research grants.  The balance of a teaching MD or MD/Ph.D.'s compensation package is earned in a faculty practice (i.e., they see paying patients at teaching hospitals).

      The GOP has become the "Jerry Springer" party.

      by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:24:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You can't, generally. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akeitz, elfling, pgm 01, sngmama, esquimaux

      Those are all med school professors who also earn money from the university hospital as practicing MDs (see comment above). On the whole, professors' salaries haven't even kept up with inflation over the last 40 years, and lag well behind private-sector salaries for comparable education levels.

      With every goddess a let down, every idol a bring down, it gets you down / but the search for perfection, your own predilection, goes on and on and on. . .

      by cardinal on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:50:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  They hate, hate, HATE (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, AnnieR, atana, Tam in CA

    the idea of educated masses, and always have. It's why they concertedly attack public k-12 education, too. The idea of people feeling "entitled" to university education, just sends these idiots into attacks of dread and loathing.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:02:53 PM PST

    •  And now Gingrich has propose at that level that (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      karmsy, mike101, Randtntx, pgm 01

      the union janitors be fired and the poor kids clean up after the rich kids in their schools.  These people have lost their collective minds, and we're getting sucked into their madness.  

      "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

      by AnnieR on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 06:38:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Read this thread and you realize (0+ / 0-)

      that they have made inroads in terms of hatred for higher education.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 09:59:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We got lucky, and continue to work through college (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    expenses without having our children take out college loans in undergraduate pursuits.

    Our daughter and son both live at home while going to U of CO locally (CO Springs), our daughter who is above average and carrying a 3.33 but her first year she only got in 18 hours because we were paying out of pocket in that she didn't apply for financial aide until she was accepted late. Then on she has received Pell Grants and CO State Grant originally paying 82% of tuition, fees and books the last semester it is down to 72%. The other trouble is is she can only afford with job and internship (w/ US Senator) take 12-13 hours.

    Our son who is brilliant has earned two full tuition scholarships, currently 3.90 the first at the local junior college and now at UCCS, but does not include living expenses. Though he too works work study and parts of semesters too. We look at the living expenses as the part we can control, but at the expense of the "college experience".  Our gift is no loans unless or until they go onto post grad school.

    But our siblings kids are deluged with expenses and weight of college loans even with their parents having saved in those deferred programs.

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty~Ben Franklin

    by RWN on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:11:57 PM PST

  •  I think the 1% should be peacefully pepper sprayed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Republicans only care about themselves, their money, & their power.

    by jdmorg on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:17:55 PM PST

  •  Yep, that's how a feudal society (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AnnieR, mrsgoo, esquimaux


    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:27:25 PM PST

  •  And what will they do with the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    hundreds of schools that will go under when there are no students - private prisons?

  •  ten years ago, it was just over $3,000 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    msl, Matt Z, mrsgoo, thinkdouble

    a crime against the state of california, really.

  •  I still remember all the complaints when (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    akeitz, Matt Z

    Pete Wilson and the UC board of regents started raising student fees dramatically back in the early '90s. When I started school in the mid-'80s, UCSD in-state tuition was around $500 per quarter, IIRC.

    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

    by AaronInSanDiego on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:54:07 PM PST

    •  Started in the late 80's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      UC tuition doubled in the time I was in college. (I didn't realize when I chose a private college that I was making the the less expensive choice on the net!)

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:28:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah, my time might be off. (0+ / 0-)

        I was an undergrad at UCSD from the mid-'80s to the early '90s. I do remember that once the door opened, it kept going. I might be mistaken in my memory that Pete Wilson was the governor when it began, but I think the increases under him were higher than before he was governor. That was also when the economy wasn't doing well.

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 09:20:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Comparison top world uni's. Americans pay far more (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Randtntx, elfling

    $38,000-$42,000 a year at most of our top universities. Oxford, Cambridge and Oxford, $14,000-$16,000 per yr and $22-24,000 per year for international students. Canadian universities are $4,000-$8,000 per year for domestic AND international students (though twice that per year for a master's).

    So maybe kids should start applying to those schools as they may find the total cost, including cost of living, to be cheaper.

    •  The US is asking for brain drain (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Price out the 99% and they may start looking elsewhere or will not live up to their potential. The kids of the wealthy are not going to have the same motivation and there just aren't enough of them.

      •  Plus, we used to cream off the best (1+ / 0-)

        of the rest of the world. Between tuition and restrictive visas, we're cutting that off.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:29:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  our kids don't learn foreign languages (0+ / 0-)

        But we get plenty of kids from India and China and Europe right now, especially in med school and high tech.

        I think what's more likely to happen is the shittiness/ugliness of our society will discourage foreign kids who are attending our excellent universities from settling here. Instead they will return home more often than they have done in the past. So it will be a reversal of the brain drain we've enjoyed to this point.

    •  Realize however that most countries (0+ / 0-)

      have public universities. In the USA private universities make up only 15% of the total.

      So the number are skewed.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 10:00:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Charles Murray of Bell Curve fame (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    strangedemocracy, Randtntx, esquimaux

    is going around arguing right now that working class kids shouldn't go to college...heard him on NPR Sunday morning. Said since 91 % of premed majors don't get into med school, they are wasting their time. really? 4 years of science education at the college level is wasted if you don't get into med school??? The idea that you might be able to do something with a science degree that could contribute to society, without going to med school, seems lost on these people. Ya know, i happen to think there is value in someone of average intelligence getting exposed to some Melville, Shakespeare, and college Bio. Silly me. At least they had someone on to counter him, some tech entrepeneur from Duke.

    •  Most pre-meds I went to school (0+ / 0-)

      with became doctors.

      I went to school to become an electrical engineer myself.

      I intended to get a job building medical equipment, but got jobs working in telecommunications instead.

      My boss attended the first Internet conference along with about 20 other people.

    •  We need more medical schools (0+ / 0-)

      That might have something to do with it.

      We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

      by denise b on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 12:07:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and don't forget that they want to get rid of the Dept. of Education (as Perry may have recently remembered). Let the lending that students depend on to get an education go unregulated. Sure, the 1% doesn't really want the 99% to go to college, but if we do, the 1% should make some coin off of 'em.

  •  Don't they see this will bite them in the ass? (0+ / 0-)

    Who are companies going to hire if so few people in the population can get a higher education?


    Where will our economy be THEN?

    This is all going to come back around--and sooner than they think--if they don't wake the hell up and see what kind of a situation they're creating.

    Caminante, no hay camino. Son tus huellas el camino y nada mas...-Antonio Machado

    by newyorknewyork on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 07:31:10 PM PST

  •  UC's Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    What it takes to be eligible

    Be a California resident

    Demonstrate income below $80,000 with financial need, as determined for federal need-based aid program

    Be in your first four years as a UC undergraduate (first two for transfer students)

    Meet other campus basic requirements for UC grant aid (for example, be enrolled at least half-time during the academic year, meet campus academic progress standards, not be in default on student loans, etc.)

    ...file a Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) and ensure that your Cal Grant GPA Verification has been submitted by the March 2 deadline of the year you plan to attend UC.

    You will receive the benefits of the Blue and Gold plan automatically if you qualify.

    What Blue + Gold covers

    Under the plan, your systemwide fees will be fully covered by scholarship or grant money if you are in your first four years at UC (two if you're a transfer student).

    The plan combines all sources of scholarship and grant awards you receive (federal, state, UC and private) to count toward covering your fees. If, for example, you receive Pell and Cal Grants and private scholarships that don't fully cover your fees, UC grant money will make up the difference.

    Students with greater financial need can qualify for even more grant support to help defray other educational expenses (like books, housing, transportation, etc.) In 2010-11, UC provided grant and scholarship assistance averaging $14,514 per student to more than half of undergraduates.

    •  The intent was (0+ / 0-)

      actually to cream more money from the top 1% and to give grants to the bottom half.

      Course, note that 4 year requirement. That's a way that kids end up screwed on student loans, because something happened - sections were full, illness, a change of major, or just general college confusion - ended up requiring a 5th year at $30k. And once you have 4 years sunk in, you pretty much feel like you have to just eat it and get it done.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:34:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What? Rich people are greedy and only look (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrsgoo, Sharoney

    after themselves?  Really?  You sure about that?  Well, as long as they fix the economy and provide us all with good jobs, who cares....

    ... Maybe we should give them more money so they'll like us more....

    •  LOL! Love the snark! (0+ / 0-)

      "We're here to start a dialog, nothing more. We keep quiet and let the press, the politicians, and the Wall Streeters hang themselves." From a veteran protester in the civil rights days at Liberty Park. h/t to pistols at dawn.

      by mrsgoo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:16:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks. I honestly don't get it sometimes, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        rich people get rich by finding new and creative ways to take other people's money, not by being charities.  They might get rich running charities, but that is different.  They then stay rich by not helping other people take their money, which includes not helping other people learn how to take their money.

        And, the craziest thing is - this isn't a secret.  It is a badge of honor for them.

        Anyone looking for rich people to do them financial favors might as well be looking for a king ready to renounce his thrown and give his crown away.  It happens on occasion but it is a crappy life-plan.

  •  Teachers make up about 2% of the workforce (0+ / 0-)

    and they are expected to have a college education.

    Nurses make up about 1% of the workforce
    and they are expected to have a college education.

    Doctors and dentists make up about .7% of the workforce and they are expected to have a college education.

    Lawyers make up about .4% of the workforce and they are expected to have a college education.

  •  And this needs to be screamed from the rooftops. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TalkieToaster, Ahianne

    The 1% are on a campaign to deliberately withhold education from the 99%. By defunding/privatizing K-12, promoting "home skooling" in the bible belt and making university education costs so onerous that you will graduate a wage slave - They are well on their way to turning the USA into a third world illiterate country.

    "We're here to start a dialog, nothing more. We keep quiet and let the press, the politicians, and the Wall Streeters hang themselves." From a veteran protester in the civil rights days at Liberty Park. h/t to pistols at dawn.

    by mrsgoo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:22:46 PM PST

  •  Squeezing out the poor (2+ / 0-)

    Here in Michigan (as in other states), there's a new method of pricing out the poorest students:  Changing public university funding formulas to reduce funding of colleges according to the percent of students who fail to graduate within 4-6 years.

    The students who work full or part time; who went to bad schools and are badly prepared; who are raising a family and must keep working to support them; who have trouble with English, as it isn't their first or primary language. . . it's these students whose colleges will get less funding.

    We once  praised people who worked, raised their families, and managed to get a college degree over many years.  Now those people are being condemned, as well as the schools that they attend.

  •  It's like that at ASU (0+ / 0-)

    They have raised their tuition almost 300%.  It went from being a place where even poor people with no family support could get a part time job and have a great and even chance to get ahead to being increasingly a party school for the privileged.

    I have zero debt from those days.  I wish I could say the same about the students attending now.

    Assassin: Its worse than you know. Malcolm: It usually is. 宁静

    by TalkieToaster on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:37:29 PM PST

  •  The 1% won't rest (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pgm 01

    until the 99% are enslaved.

    The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:40:21 PM PST

  •  Back in mid 1980's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rexymeteorite, Ahianne

    You could expect that a 4 year UC education would cost about $10k a year including expenses for a total of around $40k. You could reasonably expect with a UC education to get an entry level job at around $30k. $25k for a low paying job like teaching.

    So, a ratio of about $4/$3 in total cost of your education to your annual salary.

    Today a 4 year UC education has a sticker price of $120k, maybe closer to $150k considering how many students take 5 years.

    A fresh graduate might expect to make $40k.

    We've gone from a ratio that was close to 1:1 to a ratio that is now 3:1.

    The financial aid picture has changed as well, but I find these figures alarming. And while you might say that only the wealthy have to pay full freight, I know what I see from kids around here: none of them go to UC, even though they are academically very qualified.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:49:45 PM PST

    •  120K?!?!?!?!?!?! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I am 23,000 dollars in debt for 2 years of education, and I thought THAT was a lot. Jesus, I saved a ton of money by going to a community college for 2 years, and going to Western Oregon University (they have a tuition guarantee of 17,000 dollars a year for 2 years).

      They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

      by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 08:52:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  btw 17,000 dollars (0+ / 0-)

        includes tuition, fees, books etc.

        I believe just the tuition is about 8000-9000.

        They call me Gato, I have metal joints. Beat me up and earn 15 silver points. -- Gato the Robot, Chrono Trigger

        by rexymeteorite on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 09:04:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most of the top 200 schools are $20k-$40k/yr now (0+ / 0-)

          Not including books, living expenses, etc. When you add on those (how many people going to a top college live with their parents?), it approaches $120k. They have to rely on financial aid to cut it down, but there's just not enough of it.

          Btw, fight tooth and nail for financial aid, work study, used books (or check them out from the library), anything you can do to bring down your costs. That debt follows you everywhere.

  •  Unless they go to Rupert School where they (0+ / 0-)

    will undoubtedly learn all sorts of amazing 'Fox Facts' about the world, but when questioned will simply lose any ability to recall a single one.

    Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp behind aggressive push into 'bold educational reform'

    Bold, or what's that other word, well with Fox a whole audience believes the most irrational things, so go after the kids and it becomes what - indoctrination?

    "You Still drilling for oil? Well good luck, I mean it. Idiot. Shine, Baby, Shine." JR Ewing

    by Unenergy on Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 11:50:49 PM PST

  •  I've thought that all along (0+ / 0-)

    Much of what they do is for that very reason, especially when it comes to girls and women, who they think should only be around to bear the heirs of the wealth. Girls and women should only be educated enough to not be boring, but not enough to actually make their own decisions, or to think they can make their own decisions.

  •  in 2002 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    state of California had a surplus biggest surplus in its history ( just like the Clinton surplus )

    Governor Gray Davis initiated a program and promised that every high school graduate who qualified for college entrance would get a first year grant from state of CA....

    of course when the wingnuts smell a pool of public money they find a way to TAKE IT and

    Texas El Paso Energy et all came along immediately thereafter and gouged/frauded every resident of the state of CA ... rolling brownouts, rolling blackouts, enormous increases in gas/electric bills.... CA went into the red;

    then Gray Davis was recalled and the program to give every graduating high school senior going to college CA state grant money was shut down;

    Oligarchy, Monopoly, Artificial Scarcity - - - All Day All Week Occupy Wall Street

    by anyname on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:33:50 AM PST

  •  Perfectly logical (0+ / 0-)

    All tyrannical regimes have limited education for (who they perceived as) underlings (slaves) or their political enemies  (the other 99%).  Koch and co. are famously cold--and logical about it.

    Old Hippies Never Give Up!

    by ravenrdr on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:43:08 AM PST

  •  It's demonstrably true. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They treat everyone who wasn't born wealthy as though they're lazy.
    They treat everyone who wasn't born wealthy as though any tuition assistance - even loans - is, somehow, evil and so-shuh-liss.
    Then - and you wold not believe how many time I've heard this from a 1 percenter, whether as a professor, an advocate, or an academic advisor - they think that an economic system that forces some people to never hope to attend college is A-OK because the world needs ditch diggers, too!

    It's that arrogance and disregard for humankind, the stupid cliches and lies they tell themselves to make economic oppression A-OK in their book, that keeps me astonished.

    To so many of them, it just honestly never occurs to them that they've been spoon-fed their silver-spoon lives of luxury from birth on - that they, in fact, are the one who have had these advantages handed to them.

    So he says to me, do you wanna be a BAD boy? And I say YEAH baby YEAH! Surf's up space ponies! I'm makin' gravy WITHOUT THE LUMPS! HAAA-ha-ha-ha!!!

    by Cenobyte on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 03:43:42 AM PST

  •  The goal is to raise a society of serfs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    to be an unlimited source of labor for the 1%.  

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

    by SottoVoce on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:13:53 AM PST

  •  College British style (0+ / 0-)

    This is a very important point, and it cannot happen. Education is food for change not to mention solidarity and compassion. The cost of college is now unconscionable. As Kos points out, it is part of the plan. Elitist assholes constitute the GOP.

  •  "Less competition for their offspring." (0+ / 0-)

    and eventually less funding and lower academic ranking for their schools too because, after all, their children understand that no effort is needed on their part.

  •  restricting entrance to the professions (0+ / 0-)

    only to "the best families" is a guarantee of mediocrity and  ultimately, of a economy that simply can not compete against more meritocratic societies  whether it's done by explicit class restrictions and quotas or by simply pricing the 99% out of the market.

    The world economy is not a "Special Olympics" where the rest of the world is going to slow their best and brightest down to provide "fair" competition for the unworthy  sons and daughters of the 1%.

    Aristocracies have proven a miserably ineffective way of ensuring that the best and brightest get into the jobs which actually require them.

    Peak Oil is NOW! Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 06:25:58 AM PST

  •  they saw what happens, in the 60s, (0+ / 0-)

    if you allow a bunch of underclass folk to get an education:  uppity Untermenchen with the nerve to stand up on their hind legs and articulately demand their fair share of the pie.

    Clear as glass to any observer that they've been back-pedaling on this whole "universal public education" thingie ever since.

    Educated serfs? How droll.  The MOTU are not amused.

    don't always believe what you think

    by claude on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 06:36:26 AM PST

  •  Stupid people are easier to control (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 06:48:21 AM PST

  •  and the irony is that these days (0+ / 0-)

    a college degree is considered the new high school degree. If you want a good job, chances are that bachelors will not be enough at all--all you have to do is read any job opening ad to see what employers want, and recent college grads is NOT what they are looking for almost ever. It'd a vicious cycle where in order to get a good job they demand an advanced degree but also X years of experience (X usually 5) but you can't get that experience because nobody will hire anyone without experience already. And that shiny new college degree is useless to get your foot on the door because you guessed it: no experience!

    Knowing the right people or incredible luck seems to be the only way to get a decent job with a college degree these days...

    "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

    by michael1104 on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 07:38:55 AM PST

  •  Public university? (0+ / 0-)

    Why can't we buy / build a site like "Phoenix University" online, where someone can go and learn / be tested on ANY subject they want to take the time to learn?

    Remove the education bottleneck in one fell swoop?

    Beyond the obvious fraud concerns, and the argument about "unfair competition" to existing schoools and Universities, what other flaws / challenges exist in the idea?

    -9.63 -6.92
    Fox News - We Distort, You Deride

    by rick on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 07:50:55 AM PST

  •  Reagan's life was saved by poor person (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theunreasonableHUman, Sharoney

    When Reagan was shot, if I recall correctly, the surgeon who performed the very risky operation remarked that Reagan had eliminated the very financial aid program which  had made the surgeon's education possible.

  •  On the practical side of education, though (0+ / 0-)

    I went to the University of California in the 1960s when admission requirements and fees made a college education something any good California student could aspire to.

    I also went to college in France in 1968 and saw first hand how pumping out young people with college degrees when there are really not enough jobs = big problem.

    My family had sent me to college to get a well-rounded Liberal Arts education and to broaden my views, with no particular job-related notions other than knowing some foreign languages. . . . .languages which enabled me to get  my foot in the door for graduate school and also for my first job.

    Kos--I think you don't go far enough because underneath the anti-Democratic actions of the 1% and of the Right = an ignorance of how Darwin's theory of evolution works, which led them to use the wrong measures for social programs like education.  They really believe that poor people are inferior, that the unlucky are inferior and that they should be culled from the herd.

  •  In 1975 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    tuition at the state college I attended was $570.

    Per year.

    A minimum wage worker could earn that much in a couple of months. Anybody with a little self discipline could save for college.

    Now it costs about $15000--more money than that worker earns in a year.

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 08:53:57 AM PST

  •  You're wrong kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    the proliferation of private, for profit colleges demonstrates that the 1% are quite happy to have as many student loan eligible kids as possible enrolled in these degree mills.  Academic capability notwithstanding.

    Pell grants, government housing programs, defense spending, SS privatization, Medicare vouchers. There's not a single government program, no matter how worthwhile, that the GOP won't try to turn into a revenue stream for their cronies.

    True patriots.

  •  I'm a graduate of SUNY PURCHASE (0+ / 0-)

    In 2001, i entered college right out of high school. I went to PURCHASE COLLEGE - Tuition was 3800k a semester. By the time i graduated - tuition was 7400k a semester. Public universities are no longer public.

  •  An ignorant electorate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    prfb, MKSinSA

    is a Republican electorate. And uneducated workers will take the shit jobs and be grateful for them.

    It's The SCOTUS, Stupid!

    by kitebro on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 10:24:33 AM PST

    •  So true, so freakin' true. (0+ / 0-)
    •  I don't disagree with your sentiment but (0+ / 0-)

      I want to push back on the idea that people without college degrees are ignorant or lean Republican.

      If you look at who has had access to higher education, its mostly people of wealthy backgrounds and middle-class backgrounds.  College education rates for people of color and those who grew up in working-class families is much lower. Those are also, incidentally, huge and important portions of the Democratic coalition.

      Historically college-educated people have been more Republican until recently; 2008 split that group in half. While those with advanced degrees have leaned Democratic for a long time, those with 4-year degrees leaned Republican.

      And would a wealthy Republican even imagine not sending their own kids to college? Their kids almost always go. They view it as a marker of socioeconomic status rather than an opportunity to expand or change their worldview.

  •  We need to re-think higher education altogether. (0+ / 0-)

    Liberals should be concerned about reflecting on why higher education exists in the first place.

    College used to be a place where you could be exposed to new ideas, learn a broad worldview outside what you know, become aware of scientific facts and the most up-to-date thinking on pressing issues, learn how to be better citizens and learn how to do whatever you end up doing more consciously and ethically.

    Nowadays, having a degree is a more of a symbol of class status allowing you to compete in a job market inaccessible to those without degrees.  Colleges and universities select applicants they judge to have slightly higher potential, and turn them in to graduates with significantly higher potential compared to those without degrees. I've never had an employer or interviewer care what I learned about in college; they treated my degree like a label stating "middle class or better" or "not riffraff" or something to that effect.

    We need to re-think that. If universities are simply institutions of privilege, it does make it more important that college is accessible to people of ALL socioeconomic backgrounds, especially people from poor families and people of color. But those with the more privileged backgrounds are always going to access higher education at higher rates, so if we want to to keep celebrating and pushing higher education we have to change its primary focus.  

    Most universities are public and taxpayer-funded. For a non-college-educated taxpayer to fund an institution that serves solely to disadvantage her or him is wrong. Schools need to orient themselves towards training people to be better citizens for the betterment of everyone, not just their graduates, or else they're betraying the citizens asked to pay for them.

    I'm not saying universities don't churn out brilliant intellectual work and important science and research - they do - but I still think we operate as though social status is the #1 reason to go.

  •  Why pay taxes to educate workers? (0+ / 0-)

    When you can bring in the best graduates from universities in India and China easily?  California corporations outsource jobs but they also outsource the training of their work force by not paying their share of the costs of operating the state, which includes educating the workforce.  I see it every day.  New homeowners in my neck of the woods in the $500,000+ houses are from everywhere but California.

    "The privatization of the country’s assets (such as health, education and water) for profit can only release destructive forces. You cannot play with the forces of life."
    - World Teacher Maitreya through an associate

    •  My concern is... (0+ / 0-)

      does a college education really function in our society as job training, or does it function more as a marker of socioeconomic status?

      I think the latter.

      In a very American way, a person with a low-income background can arrive at the "middle class or better" status signified by a college degree. But then again, there is a broad expectation that the children of "middle class or better" families will also go on to college, whereas the children of low-income families who attend college are the lucky few who arrived at the next level.  

      But I've honestly never had a potential employer care what my degree was in or if it prepared me for the field.  They only cared I had a degree.

      I'm a freelance writer right now and my income is very low... yet because of my degree, people still basically treat me as "middle class." I feel as though I'm automatically seen that way forever regardless of my income.

      I'm not saying my college education wasn't valuable and that I didn't learn important things, it's just that outside college nobody else cares about it - they just want to know I have one.

  •  Education and Healthcare (0+ / 0-)

    are human rights!

    Why are we putting up with this?

    We need to stay together to change things.

  •  Higher Education will be increasingly online (0+ / 0-)

    I can almost imagine a 2 tiered system where only a few can afford to have real college experiences and the rest will have to settle for an online education.

  •  Submit this to WaPo, Markos (0+ / 0-)

    You really ought to write a longer article fleshing out this argument -- it's one of the most important, vital problems facing us today, and one we can start fixing immediately if we try.  The question is, will Kaplan Test Prep Daily publish it?

    Oops, I just answered my own question. :-(

    Ventura 2012: "If not now, sklort?"

    by Tommy Allen on Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 11:40:57 AM PST

  •  What the 1% really want. (0+ / 0-)

    The SOBs in the 1% want only their inbred offspring to get a college education so they can manage the 99% who will be slaves.

  •  Lt Pike (0+ / 0-)

    the merry pepper-spraying campus cop at UC Davis makes more than 100K
    that's more than most professor there  make

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