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How would you feel if a United States Senator introduced a bill that made it legal for your employer to get away with not paying you for your overtime work?

What would you say to a Senator who was actively working to take money out of the pockets of the 99 percent and hand it over to Big Corporations, at once taking food off our tables and further damaging the already weakened economy?

Sadly, these are not rhetorical questions. Senator Kay Hagan, Democrat from North Carolina, introduced legislation in October that seeks to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act to place many new classifications of employees, not only directly in the IT field, but "including, but not limited to, work related to computers" into the category that makes them exempt from receiving overtime pay.

Here is the text of the bill, with further clarification following. [I have interspersed the current wording with the proposed new language for comparison.]

112th CONGRESS
1st Session
S. 1747

To amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to modify provisions relating to the exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, or other similarly skilled workers.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

October 20, 2011

Mrs. HAGAN (for herself, Mr. ISAKSON, Mr. ENZI, and Mr. BENNET) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions

A BILL

To amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to modify provisions relating to the exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, or other similarly skilled workers.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ‘Computer Professionals Update Act’ or the ‘CPU Act’.

SEC. 2. AMENDMENT TO THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT OF 1938.

Section 13(a)(17) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 213(a)(17)) is amended to read as follows:

[New language] ‘(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled

[Current legislation reads: (17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—]

[New language] ‘(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;

[Current legislation reads: (A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;]

[New language] ‘(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;

[Current legislation reads: (B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;]

[New language] ‘(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or

[Current legislation reads: (C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or]

‘(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;

[This is unchanged from the current legislation]

who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).’.

[Current legislation reads: who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour.]
[NOTE that the new bill would add the salaried employees that are not covered under the current legislation.]



So what does it mean to be "an employee in a professional capacity" under The Fair Labor Standards Act? It means your employer is exempt from having to pay you for your overtime hours.

Sec. 213
§ 213. Exemptions

(a) Minimum wage and maximum hour requirements

The provisions of sections 206 (except subsection (d) in the case of paragraph (1) of this subsection) and section 207 of this title shall not apply with respect to

(1) any employee employed in a bona fide executive, administrative, or professional capacity (including any employee employed in the capacity of academic administrative personnel or teacher in elementary or secondary schools), or in the capacity of outside salesman (as such terms are defined and delimited from time to time by regulations of the Secretary, subject to the provisions of subchapter II of chapter 5 of Title 5, except that an employee of a retail or service establishment shall not be excluded from the definition of employee employed in a bona fide executive or administrative capacity because of the number of hours in his workweek which he devotes to activities not directly or closely related to the performance of executive or administrative activities, if less than 40 per centum of his hours worked in the workweek are devoted to such activities);



And what is the salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulation?

Subpart G—Salary Requirements
 

§ 541.600 Amount of salary required.

(a) To qualify as an exempt executive,administrative or professional employee under section 13(a)(1) of the Act, an employee must be compensated on a salary basis at a rate of not less than $455 per week (or $380 per week, if employed in American Samoa by employers other than the Federal Government), exclusive of board,lodging or other facilities.Administrative and professional employees may also be paid on a fee basis, as defined in § 541.605.

(b) The $455 a week may betranslated into equivalent amounts forperiods longer than one week. Therequirement will be met if the employeeis compensated biweekly on a salarybasis of $910, semimonthly on a salarybasis of $985.83, or monthly on a salarybasis of $1,971.66. However, theshortest period of payment that willmeet this compensation requirement is one week.



In other words,  if you are one of potentially thousands of people in a job that is "related to computers," your employer would be able to call you exempt and not pay you for your overtime hours if this bill passes. That covers just about everyone working  in the computer industry.

So what lobbyist group do you think has put pressure to bear on our heretofore esteemed Senator from North Carolina? I cannot see how much of the language of this new version of the existing Fair Labor Standards Act benefits anyone in this country except corporations. This effectively takes money out of the pockets of even more working Americans and gives it away to corporations.

And a shout-out to @speaker2codecs for pointing out that "No overtime for waged [employees] means far fewer salaried positions."

This bill is bad for the 99 percent and it is bad for the economy.

►►► Phone Senator Hagan's offices ◄◄◄
►►► TELL HER THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! ◄◄◄

DC Office: 202-224-6342 Greensboro Office: 336-333-5311
Raleigh Office: 919-856-4630 Charlotte Office: 704-334-2448
Asheville Office: 828-257-6510 Greenville Office: 252-754-0707
Then call your own Senators and tell them not to co-sponsor this bill and to vote NO if it makes it to the Senate floor.

►►► Find your Senator's contact information here. ◄◄◄

We must take action to save working America!



This post originally appeared at reelectdemocrats. Please visit to read more of my posts.

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~ Anne Frank

Mon Dec 12, 2011 at  2:47 PM PT: A couple of people in the comments section pointed out that, in general, IT workers are already considered exempt, and that this bill only seeks to add language to include new fields within the industry since the original law was written in 1990. As such, I have slightly modified this post to acknowledge those facts and made changes where necessary.

However, my opposition to this bill still stands, as the language is far too broad and all-encompassing, including (but not limited to, of course) anyone working in a "computer related" field.

In addition, especially with the current conversation about income inequality in this country, it hardly makes sense to give employers yet another list of people who they can now re-classify as exempt so that they won't have to pay them overtime for their work.


Originally posted to jillwklausen on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 07:19 PM PST.

Also republished by In Support of Labor and Unions.

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  •  Tip Jar (252+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, penguins4peace, lcork, glendaw271, Player to be named later, Horace Boothroyd III, Leo Flinnwood, commonmass, kurious, ferment, wildweasels, GeeBee, G2geek, deepsouthdoug, superfly, ChemBob, glorificus, Gowrie Gal, WisePiper, Mr Robert, norwood, zerelda, begone, Siri, JeffW, elengul, Curt Matlock, m00finsan, mrkvica, jedennis, on the cusp, quill, badger, 0wn, El Zmuenga, itsbenj, Flying Goat, Kamakhya, ninkasi23, bakeneko, squarewheel, bnasley, ctsteve, bajadudes, geebeebee, PBnJ, bluicebank, alnep, buckybadger1988, Nulwee, Josiah Bartlett, Crazy like a fox, Simplify, BarackStarObama, Shockwave, statsone, blueoasis, beka, Ckntfld, LynnS, progressivevoice, Pinko Elephant, la urracca, DawnN, Oh Mary Oh, babatunde, fumie, Mathazar, eeff, rmonroe, Danno11, rasbobbo, James Allen, roses, LaFeminista, mofembot, DiegoUK, Angie in WA State, Dave925, Just Bob, sturunner, Calamity Jean, thenekkidtruth, radarlady, Clues, ActivistGuy, arlene, Sprinkles, JugOPunch, JimWilson, irate, sb, tonyahky, skohayes, Shelley99, Phoebe Loosinhouse, Setsuna Mudo, missLotus, shortgirl, beverlywoods, anodnhajo, Naniboujou, sodalis, run around, Actbriniel, haremoor, deviant24x, kharma, ManhattanMan, strangedemocracy, Keori, alizard, brae70, J M F, marleycat, democracy inaction, p gorden lippy, Nina Katarina, Shotput8, Fiddlegirl, Leftcandid, aufklaerer, psnyder, hkorens, blue armadillo, DamselleFly, glitterscale, white blitz, Dburn, Its any one guess, satanicpanic, dithered, Sherri in TX, wagdog, majcmb1, greenbastard, Spoc42, OnlyWords, HeyMikey, Marjmar, MKinTN, Iberian, ratzo, dalfireplug, gooderservice, Alma, profundo, Creosote, el dorado gal, redlum jak, Matilda, blue71340, randallt, Sychotic1, dotsright, dark daze, Unit Zero, pengiep, NMRed, miracle11, boadicea, cybersaur, Medium Head Boy, frisbee, tgrshark13, Fish in Illinois, Terminus, qannabbos, enhydra lutris, No one gets out alive, Involuntary Exile, artisan, cloudbustingkid, ontheleftcoast, Brooke In Seattle, Karl Rover, ER Doc, sockpuppet, Desolations Angel, sherlyle, blue aardvark, Zydekos, IndieGuy, oldmanriver, middleagedhousewife, SteelerGrrl, tbirchard, jayden, hubcap, operculum, BlueInRedCincy, texasmom, fiddlingnero, petulans, stlsophos, naperken, GenXangster, PBen, esquimaux, leonard145b, chipmo, tapestry, gloriana, Mentatmark, One Pissed Off Liberal, Wife of Bath, MJ via Chicago, Nica24, Punditus Maximus, Ivan, DeadB0y, notrouble, demnomore, Emocrat, peteri2, DeminNewJ, deben, Unbozo, DBunn, expatjourno, Arenosa, Trotskyrepublican, raincrow, myadestes, jeremybloom, Cassandra Waites, letsgetreal, SouthernLiberalinMD, rmx2630, prfb, James Kresnik, kevin k, divineorder, cpresley, millwood, Aspe4, ColoTim, cville townie, smokem2271, CTPatriot, Alice Olson, bunsk, mikeconwell, NM Ray, trumpeter, TiaRachel, James Hepburn, lippythelion69, NBBooks, kurt, Dirtandiron, splashy
    •  Clinton, concerning the media, (16+ / 0-)

      was especially conservative.

      An Eleanor, not Franklin, Roosevelt Democrat.

      by Nulwee on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:17:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, conservative is one way to describe... (0+ / 0-)

        ...the criminal act of taking shitloads of cash in exchange for supporting, writing, or just voting for particular pieces of legislation.

        Seriously, never attribute to ideology what can be better explained as corruption.

    •  From the European point of view (20+ / 0-)

      Everyone in American politics is "conservative", i.e. right wing.

      FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

      by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:40:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  How can we find the existing text? (11+ / 0-)

      I cannot tell what language is being changed here.   Is there a place we can read the existing law?    I've been in IT jobs most of my life, and I was a legally exempt employee from the first day.   The company said we were all exempt because of the nature of our jobs.   We all had tech degrees and we were all salaried.    

      I worked really hard and had to get up in the middle of the night often to feed the mainframes.   We got "comp time" but we were expected to use only about half of it.

      That being said, it was in most ways a wonderful job.  Nobody watched over our desks.  We took walks together in the middle of the day.   We came in at 10 AM and nobody even noticed.  Everybody was smart, engaged and motivated.   People who were not performing very well usually got laid off.   It was sad to see this happen, but the company always had made a strong effort to encourage training.   You could do masters level course work and be paid for it.  

      Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

      by bobtmn on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:18:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good luck. (7+ / 0-)

        We need a different kind of text program to deal with the scattershot revisions, something to merge the different versions so as to produce 1) what the language was, and 2) what the language becomes, with the differences highlighted.  I dealt with such applications during my (many) years working on mainframes, but I'm not aware of such an app for today's world.

        BTW, your story is very familiar.  When I saw the headline, I thought, big deal.  But then I saw that it's written to apply to hourly employees and "salaried" people getting shitty pay.  I was "exempt" and paid quite well.

        I don't doubt that the first thing that will happen is that people will be coerced into working a much longer work week, thus reducing their effective hourly wage.  This bill sucks.

        I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

        by tle on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:39:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not the nature of your job (9+ / 0-)

        it's the fact that you're salaried.

        I don't get paid overtime either, nor do I get comp time. But my schedule is flexible, I get vacation and sick leave. I can pretty much control my hours.

        Restaurants used to put every shift manager on some meager salary, and then schedule them 50-60 hr weeks. I think they've cracked down on that somewhat.

        Salaried workers are supposed to have some control over their hours - so if they need to work extra hours on a project, they can take off some other day. They're also supposed to be more upper level workers.  

        •  I worked in a state agency (0+ / 0-)

          where the work week began on Friday - So, the state would work us overtime as they needed - then force us to take "Flex-time" to adjust so that there would never be overtime.  The work involved child abuse investigations, foster care and juvenile justice.  We often had to respond on cases while on beepers.  State troopers were also on this "Flex" system.  Floridians knew that there were fewer state troopers on the interstates on Thursdays when they would need to "adjust" their hours.  Looking back, the system was really not employee-friendly.

        •  as someone who was also IT years ago... (0+ / 0-)

          it is very easy for us to be "distracted" and lose track of time and work extremely long hours.  i got lost in the software or program or problem and frequently didn't notice until 1am or later.

          also, though, as you pointed out, i was salaried and had good benefits and could have gone home but didn't because i was engrossed in the problem at hand.  i loved what i was doing - to be reduced to an hourly wage would have meant being told to go home when the project was half done, disrupting the mental process it took to unravel that particular problem.

          i am not so sure i object to this - as long as the salaries are commensurate with the job.

          this diary sounds like an overreaction by someone not in the industry.  maybe i'm wrong - after all, it was the mid eighties i was working IT - so things do change in time.

          will reserve judgement, but right now, i don't see this as a great injustice.

          Is GlowNZ back yet?

          by edrie on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 01:45:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Have you ever worked helpdesk? (0+ / 0-)

            That's a very UNfun place to be in IT and it is usually hourly with OT. This bill would make those folks want to kill themselves even more (they have a high suicide rate, I kid you not.)

            •  i can believe it - we didn't have "help desks" in (0+ / 0-)

              my day - we had clients call us to come out and "fix" the problem.  i worked for wang labs as a software consultant (and was also the system admin for the syosset office for over a year).  it was just ibm, dec and wang at the time - each company ran architect dependent software... and charged a HUGE fortune for yearly equipment and software maintenance.  wang ended as did dec when the pc was introduced and it was cheaper for companies to throw out a pc and buy a new one rather than paying the exorbitant maintenance contracts.

              back in my day, the companies were at the mercy of the computer companies.  now, with the pc, it's changed... with open source software, non-architech dependent software, apps, etc., the proliferation of hand helds - it's a totally different world out there.

              i can only imagine the abuse the help desk folk take - especially when there is a very frustrated customer and a hard to find problem....  i always try to caveat at the very beginning of the conversation that i am NOT upset with them, but i am frustrated at the lack of a solution to the problem.  most get it - a few still take any complaint about non-working software, billings, etc. as personal affronts.

              that's too bad... it puts a whole nuther dynamic into the equation.

              Is GlowNZ back yet?

              by edrie on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 11:15:18 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  The existing text is under the 1st horizontal line (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cville townie, kurt

        There is a link to the Fair Labor Standards Act so you can read if at the source. But the affected section is 213, which is reprinted in the original post, that indicates employees whose positions are legally defined as "an employee in a professional capacity" are exempt from overtime pay.

        What that means is that if your current IT job pays you for your overtime hours and you make at least $27.63 per hour or $23,600 per year, your employer could stop paying you for your overtime hours by law if this passes.

        •  So here it is: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          James Kresnik

          Before:

          (17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—
          (A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;
          (B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;
          (C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or
          (D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) the performance of which requires the same level of skills, and
          who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour.

          After

          (17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--
          ‘(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
          ‘(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
          ‘(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
          ‘(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;
          who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).’.

          Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

          by bobtmn on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 12:21:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  What's cute is that the $23600/yr (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nchristine

          or $455 per week translates to an hourly wage of $11.35 at 40 hours/wk. Not $27.63 (which would be an annual salary of nearly $60k). $11.35. I bet a large number of people fall between those marks. Even at an average of 30 hours/wk, anyone earning over $15/hr would be exempt, though I would expect many people working part time to be on a wage basis instead of salary.

          Somehow I'm really scratching my head at the wage value in the legislation, because the salary cutoff is so much lower it's not funny.

    •  Imagine our dismay in NJ when last summer, the (5+ / 0-)

      Democratic President of the State Senate (and an official in the Ironworkers Union, for good measure) collaborated with Governor Chris Christie on removing public employees health benefits from collective bargaining and ending the Cost of Living increases on former public workers pensions.   He then enlisted the help of Essex County Democrats in a slimy deal to get this through the Assembly (with the help of all the Republicans) just so the son of a former Democratic powerbroker in Essex County could get his own public TV station (the former NJ Network).  That was when public employees in NJ realized that they could no longer put their trust in the Democratic Party in NJ as the corrupt South Jersey and Essex County machines would sell them out to feather their own nests.  It is not necessarily conservatism, but also corruption and pursuit of personal financial gain that motivates Democrats in NJ.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:19:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Programming? Seriously? (107+ / 0-)

    It's already standard practice in the video game industry to demand 100 hours a week from the development team in crunch time -- which is generally the last six months before a game is released. Not paying them commensurate with that type of workload is just inhumane.

    Boo, Kay Hagan. I want my video game entertainment brought to me by people who are at least happy with their paychecks.

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

    by Geiiga on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 07:28:13 PM PST

  •  And lest anyone think it's "just" (93+ / 0-)

    about the money... well it is, about the money, but being required to pay OT is one of the best deterrents around to prevent employers from requiring IT workers to work ridiculous 60-80 hour work weeks.  

    As a veteran of one of those jobs, where I at first WASN'T classified as non-exempt, I went to HR and got my job reclassified (and everyone else who was working in the same position reclassified as well) and suddenly it became a matter of great concern that we didn't work all those crazy, soul-sucking hours cleaning up other peoples' messes.

    So it is about the financial compensation, but it is just as much about not being taken advantage of, and being required to essentially work two jobs for one paycheck.

    You hear about crazy, but it's rarer than you think. -Jon Stewart 1/10/2011

    Help Me Find Mister Boots

    by lcork on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 07:28:59 PM PST

  •  Not just video games...... (59+ / 0-)

    In my last job, I spent 25% of my time on-call.  Did I get called very often?? No, but I had to be available during my 'turn'.  Life had to be scheduled around that.  Did I get any extra pay for that??  Of course not.  Did I get comp-time??  Of course not.  It was all defined as customary duties of the position for which I was hired.

    IIRC, "they're" wanting to include the hourly (or sometimes salaried) operators that run the computer itself, help desk guys, technicians and the like in this new rule.

    •  I have been in jobs where I had to (25+ / 0-)

      take call but we got extra compensation for it--it wasn't much, but it was something. This was on the administrative end of home health. You BET we got called and often had to spend hours finding a replacement on a weekend for someone who did not show up for their visit or shift. It was a nightmare.

      Capitalism may be our enemy, but it is also our teacher. --V.I. Lenin equalitymaine.org

      by commonmass on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 07:42:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a senior IT guy (26+ / 0-)

      It's revenge on the IT staff.  In a LOT of IT organizations, especially in DC (where I live) all IT are exempt.  Because during some days you do well, no work, and then during the times of major server and email upgrades you crush 12 hours a day for a month.

      Combined with the assholes that work late everyday in legal or other areas that demand full IT support to support them (even if 99% of the time they won't do it) and having to pay any IT person any overtime at all ends up badly.

      In a nut shell a ton of most IT workers is sitting around waiting for some idiot to break something.  With the senior IT staff just pulling logs and figuring out when we need to overhaul stuff.  In a properly staffed IT department, most of them should be sitting on their ass doing nothing more than 50% of the time just in case all hell breaks loose (it can and it will), but that doesn't jive with the bottom line so the catch is you do some work after hours, which is fine.

      The problem is that now most companies are upset that "your sysadmin just goofed off today" (no upgrades, nothing crashed, all logs pulled normal) so let's slash staff so they are all working all the time.  Then when something does happen it turns into an epic nightmare.

      In a properly staffed IT department, it's not an issue, in one that's not this turns into abusing the techs and admins.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:09:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been in IT for 35 years (16+ / 0-)

        The only time I was an hourly employee is when I just was out of school, earning nothing and barely getting by as a tech.  Sure, they paid me overtime, but it didn't amount to anything. My friends in the building trades earned many more times than I did, and they got overtime.

        Most of the other time I've been in this business, I've been in those "properly staffed" departments where yes, there is some slack time but when the shit hits the fan, look out.

        Most of the bozos that I've worked for don't understand what it takes to keep an enterprise level IT operation running 24/7, how many skill sets it takes, and finding people qualified to do the work.

        When everything becomes an accounting department decision, including compensation, that's always been my signal to start looking for another job.

      •  What company actually has a 'properly staffed' (8+ / 0-)

        IT department???  I've not been in one.  The last place was actively finding ways to 'downsize' the roughly 200 person IT staff (server guys, tech, help desk, programmers, dba's, systems guys, sysadmins, telephone operators, etc) of a place that had 5k desktops, more than 100 servers, 2 mainframes, god alone knows how many miles of wire, more than 4.5 million transactions a day with more than 1 million patients a year.  They're now having to contract out the labor for the new 3rd party vendor software.

        •  And I'd wager that some jackass in management (9+ / 0-)

          got a promotion for that downsizing despite this:

          They're now having to contract out the labor for the new 3rd party vendor software.

          I've seen this many times. It's a matter of not understanding the real costs of enlisting outside help, more often than not, with a dubious level of expertise. If additional stress and frustration brought on by such a move doesn't translate to real dollars, no one really cares. Most of the time management doesn't care or understand that when you bring in "help" from the outside, your remaining inside crew has to compensate for the additional incompetence.

          I've managed to stay employed by doing things that outside contractors don't want to do, don't consider profitable, or just plain don't know how to do.  

          •  The CEO that actually signed the contract (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc, rightiswrong, James Kresnik, kurt

            has since left the institution.  IIRC, they're on the second replacement by now???  Yeah, the high muckity mucks got pay raises, we didn't.  My 'revenge'/satisfaction is that the lab module that they purchased from the same company was a complete bust, costing at least 6 million and they may have burned the bridge to the previous lab software vendor.  I know that this little venture has cost the institution millions in extra expenses because of all the auditing to capture misbilling in the last 3 years that has taken place.  One month they missed 11 million in billing.  Serves them right!!!!  In many ways, I'm so glad that I'm no longer at that instititution, but it's costing the State taxpayers money.

            I'm waiting for the flood of retirements of the mainframers.  Then, I might get job security - cause a whole bunch of schools no longer teach anything mainframe.  We both know that it's gawdawful to convert existing systems over to new platforms.  There's still tons of Cobol and PL/I out there that will need maintaining and someone who can figure it out and be able to convert the programs/data over.  There's a whole bunch of stuff out there on IMS databases and many of the newer 'off the shelf' stuff can't talk to IMS, but can to DB2.... I'm in my third database conversion and that I've already been through 2 of them is why I was hired on for the third.

      •  Spot on (8+ / 0-)

        Most companies fail to understand that if IT is a core need of your business (and for most it is), then you SHOULD have staff with extra bandwidth for when things break. It's like having insurance.

        Personally, the last time I was an hourly IT employee with overtime past 40 hours was a little over 10 years ago. I only got that arrangement after walking into the owner's office (IT consulting firm) and told him if he wanted to keep me and the gravy train he had going, he had to pay me more and make it hourly with overtime past 40 hours. Otherwise, I was going to walk out the door and he could consider this meeting my resignation.

        I was young, single and had nothing to lose. And it worked. It was another 6 years after I left that job before I was making that kind of money again. Adjusted for inflation, I'm still making less now though. I averaged about 15 hours of overtime per week.

      •  I have never seen a properly staffed IT (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nchristine, ER Doc, James Kresnik

        Department.  I did the budget for an IT Department for six years and then later for another place for a year.  

        #Occupy Wallstreet - Politicians will not support the movement until it is too big to fail.

        by Sychotic1 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:31:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Allow me to temper your bitterness by pointing out (0+ / 0-)

        that all of those professional "assholes" you reference are the ones directly generating revenue for your company via their client payments.  

        Sheesh, if you could just rid of all those jerks who need IT, then you'd have... well, a pink slip actually.

        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

        by bigtimecynic on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:56:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The problem, milord, isn't the assholes (0+ / 0-)

          requesting available service, it's the assholes requesting service availbility without paying the attendant costs, as if all this work happens by elfin' magic. Internal billing, where it is implemented, cuts a lot of that free pony bullshit off at the pass.

      •  What this says to me (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        is that there is a fundamental flaw in our labor system for rewarding IT work. Having an hourly wage, and a 40 hour work week is great if you're talking about assembly line work, X amount of hours leads to Y amount of widgets produced.

        But our system is very bad at compensating people in certain lines of work. The one that always comes to my mind is artists- for the value of what artists generally yield to society, they are woefully underpaid. And for different reasons, there is a similar boom/bust cycle in productivity.

        We already have death panels. They're called insurance companies.

        by aztecraingod on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:16:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If you are oncall (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1, ER Doc

      they have to pay some.I got fired once to ask for that but I did not work for free.

  •  I Have Fought To Get Overtime For Programming (41+ / 0-)

    work. Many still think they can get away with using loose definitions of "professional" and "management" to get people to accept the "pay one price, we are going to ride you like rides at Disneyland till the midnight closing" attitude towards workers. The BS sweet talking line they give you is that they consider you a "professional" and it would be insulting to have you take overtime. The regulations are loose enough now that it allows for exploitation. There will be many more unpaid long nights at the office if this goes through.

  •  We have a similiar law in California for IT pros (27+ / 0-)

    The issue is who is considered a "professional" and therefore exempt from hourly overtime pay. This was a long burning issue in California which was finally resolved by setting a compensation floor for "professional" status for programmers and other IT professionals. It is currently just under $80,000/yr in California. So if you are a programmer with a salary of $80,000/yr or more you don't qualify for overtime.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 07:43:11 PM PST

  •  Race to the Bottom goes on overdrive (again). (38+ / 0-)

    These assholes have nothing better to do than making life worse for more and more people.  

    MEME:  REDISTRIBUTION.

    This is all about redistribution of the wealth: upward to corporations that are already turning in record profits.  

    Socialism for the bigs, the rest of us face the market?

    Hell no.   Unionize IT!

    "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:05:55 PM PST

    •  IT had a chance and rejected unions (15+ / 0-)

      go to the major tech forums, it was shat on and spat on.  They looked at teachers and police unions and threw up collectively and didn't want to be "a bunch of crooks".  Let alone the auto industry.

      It workers are pretty conservative on most matters when you break them down, not to mention a shit ton of them work for defense firms or banks.

      For the most part, IT workers are pretty Paul inspired Randians.

      Plus the pain of long hours and doofy schedules has become a matter of pride.  We are better than the liberal arts fuckers who get desk jockey jobs, make more than them, clobber them in income, and don't bolt out of work at 5pm to go happy hour it up.

      Plus most of us know that the importance of our job boils down to who many desk jockey's we can make useless through technology.

      Now call center people, they have another view.  But the sysadmin syseng crowd, hard core Randians.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:28:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Think it really depends... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, sb, boadicea, bobtmn, tle

        Wouldn't be surprised if it varied a lot by field, and by company/location.  Of those I work with (I'm a software developer), we do have a a fair number of libertarians...  But there are more liberals.  Most probably not as far left as I am, but if you get them talking about health care reform, or legalizing gay marriage, I think you'd end up with a pretty liberal consensus.

        •  yeah but ask them about their contract rates (16+ / 0-)

          I charge 300 bucks an hour for private work.  And I'm overbooked.  Plus a ton of IT people go into business for themselves.

          So while you will get a ton of support for socially liberal items among them, and even some social safety net items, it's still a "I work and win on my own" style of field full of highly competent people.  And they kinda like it that way.

          I identify as a social/civil libertarian economic liberal.

          My prior boss who was a syseng was a hardcore republican.... that supported gay marriage, abortion, and even healthcare reform.  He just fucking hated unions and taxes.  He also made 200k (not that high for the DC area) in base salary yet crushed that in consulting and the money he raked in on rent out in Columbia Maryland.

          He'd be a Democrat but "fucking unions and fucking taxes, I should make what I keep I do all the work, and assholes mooch off me" is VERY common in IT.  Because in a sense where we work, we do do most of the work that really counts, and get fuck all credit for it.

          Being in a similar (I don't make as much) situation, I do often wonder if I should try my hand and just quit my work and expand my consulting, which while it doesn't equal my work pay, still pulls down a nice 50k a year.

          I get where they are coming from about unions and all that, I do.  At the same time a pension would be nice and I don't need the extra cash I "might" get by going Galt.  I know this sounds crazy but I look at how I live, what I eat, where I hang out and I think "you know what, life is fucking good, everybody should live like this" and I'm not rich.  My old boss, ehhh he threw a fit when his 7 series BMW blew out and he got a 5 series for a rental, some people, just need to learn to live their life.

          Greed is the problem, and a ton of people in IT are in it to get rich fucking fast.  Me, I'm just happy working for an NGO in Global Health and having my toys, arcade machines in my apartment (electric bill fucks me on this), a quality seafood dinner once a week, great steak dinner once a month, and nice bike rides on the Potomac.  I can't ask for more than that.

          "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

          by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:16:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  $300 an hour? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt

            I never got even half that! Here in Europe, rates are lower, apparently.

            Worse, companies would rather pay millions for new software that requires major changes in operations (i.e., users have to learn a whole new way of working). I lost my last contract as a freelancer 8 months ago under these circumstances. The new software has cause major problems for the company, but they don't want to lose face by admitting that they screwed up. The custom-made software I wrote that was supposed to be replaced is still running, strangely enough.

            FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

            by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:31:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  security security security (0+ / 0-)

              that's where the money is, we make a ton more than anybody else in the IT industry.  Granted it's the hardest thing to break into, and the most expensive cert wise, but it's where the money is.  And since nobody invests in properly paying someone to do it on their own (too expensive to hire someone full time) when the shit hits the fan they all come screaming for help now that all their data is compromised and someone has their customers information.  

              you can pretty much name your price.

              "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

              by overclocking on Tue Dec 13, 2011 at 07:24:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  While I hate to generalize... (26+ / 0-)

          ... overclocking is pretty much right.

          I'm in IT, and you'd get laughed at if you proposed a union among most of my peers. Because we're educated white-collar workers, see? Not like those blue-collar schlubs who need someone looking out for them.

          We're just so fucking smart in IT, that some of us carry pagers tied to servers, and when the servers go down, we're expected to be in the office within an hour, no matter what time of day it is, and work until the problem is fixed, without receiving any extra pay!

          I mean, that's fucking BRILLIANT, being subservient to a machine, innit?

          Regards,
          Corporate Dog

          -----
          We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

          by Corporate Dog on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:48:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, that's their funeral I guess (0+ / 0-)

            I'm sorry for the rest of you guys that are getting dragged down by their sorry-ass Randian idiocy, but if they insist upon it even as they're getting screwed, what can you do?

            Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 12:44:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  yeah I know this one well (PBX eng. here) (16+ / 0-)

        I ran into plenty of Randians and similar instances of people with their heads planted firmly between their butt cheeks.  Also the whole Drexler nanotech immortality thing, which IMHO is a half-asssed religion that forgot to deal with ethics.    

        But interestingly, it changed during the dotcom crash.  "Social darwinists became darwinized socialists."  They all ran around meeping & moaning about using their startup shares for wallpaper and so on.  

        So I'd say there's a chance for another go at this.

        And yes we still laugh at the cubicle dwellers for whom "work" is clock-driven rather than event-driven, and everything stops at 5PM.  

        OTOH, methinks there's a bit of sour grapes there: wouldn't we prefer to not be on call 24/7, not have our lives dictated by anxious office managers' panic attacks, and not have to console ourselves with sarcastic jokes about "work weekends" and all that crap.  

        Meanwhile, here it's 9:00PM on a Sunday night, and I have a design & implementation task on my hands, followed by a bunch of admin catchup.  

        BTW, I was never a Randian.  More of a socialist actually.  Including long before the dot com crash.

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:02:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't mind "work weekends" (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, sb, boadicea, Sychotic1

          Though I'm senior in IT.  Most weekdays I remote people show up at about 10 and leave about 4.  So I have no right to gripe.  But my work is about 60% or so event driven.  I have the luxury of working 15 mins by subway from K /I street in DC.  So I just go the fuck home if it's slow, and show the fuck up if something kicks the bucket.

          I can't imagine driving to work from an hour, I wouldn't have that freedom... on the other hand, I do pay a tad under 2 grand a month for a studio once my rent raise kicks in!

          "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

          by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:23:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i noticed a change in the industry, when... (10+ / 0-)

            .... it went from everyone being an independent consultant or member of a small tech firm with a number of clients on contract, to when geeks started going to work for e.g. banks, insurance companies, and so on.  

            When everyone was an indie and small tech firms were the norm, there was a much more autonomous workplace culture about it.  (I stuck with that model; still doing it; and easier to do it on the telephony side than on the network side.  Also my client list is consistent with my principles, which counts for something.)

            But when people started going to work for banks & insurance companies & so on, I could see the attitude change start to creep in.  Gradually the principles compromised for the pragmatism, and then came the excuses, e.g. "I'm not the evil guy who writes the fraudulent mortgages," and "I'm not the evil guy who cuts off peoples' health care when they get their diagnosis," and so on.  

            No, they're not the evil guys and gals who do those things, but they're supporting 'em with their labor.  The bright side of which is, they are in positions to have major impact "comes the revolution."  Merely walking away and spilling beans would be significant.

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:49:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yeah for me (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              boadicea, Creosote

              I've always agreed with the basic IT code of conduct "I do not care what the fuck you do or look at your data I am here to make it work".  While this does enable evil, it also prevents us from getting involved and picking pet causes in a company.  You HAVE to do that.

              I'm former Navy and a DOD contractor, and while I won't get into it, a lot of my friends went to work in NYC for the banks, and they do have serious moral reservations about somethings.  But part of the job is you have to sign on to shut your yap.  And that's a good thing, one rogue IT guy can leak everybodies personal information.  The down side is nobody talks about shit.  Other than nightly drunk on the printer (where you wear a paper hat sit on the printer and mock the people outside of IT) night.

              "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

              by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:59:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  the difference on the telco side is... (6+ / 0-)

                .... we can't look at content in any meaningful way without making a deliberate effort, such as monitoring a live circuit or logging audio, things that are only done as last-resort troubleshooting measures.  I've done logging maybe twice in nearly 30 years, the one that comes to mind was a case where someone's voice mimicked a touchtone digit and caused voicemail to malfunction: recording the audio was the key to solving that one.  

                And yes I also avoid getting entangled in office politics with any of my clients.  Though at times I've been the convenient person who's willing to listen when someone just needs to get stuff off their chest, and I treat that as "psychological counseling" which is also confidential & nonjudgemental.  

                ---

                The difference between military and corporate, is the difference between life & death on one hand, and making more or less money on the other.  

                ---

                A rogue IT guy can leak everyone's personal information, but a principled IT guy can turn over evidence of crimes such as conspiracy to defraud homeowners or investors.  And we all know the ways to do it anonymously & untraceably, so it's not as if it automatically puts someone's job at risk.  

                Seems to me that civic ethics take precedence over NDAs: if you see evidence of a serious crime, you are ethically bound to report it to the authorities.  By which I don't mean if you find a bag of pot tucked under someone's monitor, but rather, big things such as fraud and worse.  IMHO there is exactly no excuse for turning a blind eye when there are innocent victims at the other end: that's complicity in the crime.  Think of where we would be today if e.g. BofA's and Goldman's IT people decided that enough was enough.    

                On the telephony side, it's a federal offense to divulge anything we hear while monitoring circuits, and I take that to mean, not only people who work for the regulated telcos, but also people in "interconnect" who work on PBXs and so on.  But I long ago decided that if I ever ran across evidence of a serious crime, I'd turn it over, and in the unlikely event I was charged for divulging, I'd plead competing harms.  Fortunately I've never had to put that to the test (though I've helped catch a few baddies outside of my work).  

                ---

                The "nobody talks about shit" factor may also be a bit of "geek syndrome culture," which overlaps with mild Asperger's Syndrome: awkwardness about "social stuff."   Seems to me the plutocracy benefits when people don't communicate with each other about what's important and why.  

                ---

                "Nightly drunk on the printer"....?!  What, it's OK in some workplaces to be drunk on the job?  IMHO that's crazy; liability issues abound, it's like taking a romp through a minefield.  

                "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 10:29:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know guys in Wall Street IT (0+ / 0-)

                  and they, like me, and like you, are also bound by laws on disclosing or even viewing some information.  You can have access to a system and legally not be allowed to look into it.  Like an HR system.  

                  Drunk on the printer is an inside joke.  The IT room is always a locked vault with biometric security in and out of.  We used to have an internal happy hour in ours every Thursday where someone would get on the printer with a paper pirates hat and read off the stupidest, most assholish, or just plain god awful trouble tickets off the week.  This was when everybody else was out of the office and we were waiting on tape backups to be picked up and taken off to the remote vault that only 3 people knew the location of.  We'd head out after for beers.

                  We did bust people for some shit, I'd scan the network and nailed someone for kiddy porn, but we don't tap into files that are confidential for people outside of our department, that's a legal nightmare.  In one place I did work for that got nailed for fraud and was unable to compete for US government contracts for a year IT was specifically banned from snooping financial data.  We didn't have a need to know.  But we did xcopy the entire mess over once the investigation started.

                  "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

                  by overclocking on Tue Dec 13, 2011 at 07:38:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  We are all boiling frogs (5+ / 0-)

        To the extent the sock-and-birkenstock crowd (or is it khakis and belt holsters?) can come to understand this they're going to be better off. No one gives a fuck about a degree, and it's not going to save you when they fully commoditize the admin and systems engineering fields (perhaps a way off, right?). Whoever doesn't understand this will stay in the pot. Those that don't will move on and adapt, but this superiority bullshit is a self fulfilling prophecy of doom. It's like this article I saw regarding some "tech wiccans" in the bay who have delusions that they're effect on the world is much more significant than it is. Stay in your bubble (pot) and you're hosed. This isn't about a superior understanding. It's about your transformation into and ever more replaceable cog that represents a unit of profit on revenue.

        I'm in software, but it doesn't matter. I am not eligible from what I understand. I work soul crushing hours, weekends, and valuable moments of my life are stolen from me by corporations that own the politicians who are writing this legislation. It's a sad state of affairs when you've deluded yourself into a false sense of superiority that will ultimately be your undoing.

        Soon, it will be game over.

        Slap happy is a platform.

        by averageyoungman on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:51:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I can't really figure out why anyone's reccing you (0+ / 0-)

        You sound like a bitter idiot who hates his co-workers.  Which is pretty funny, since all IT is funded by company overhead paid for by those "worthless desk jockeys." Seriously dude, save the silly little Napolean complex for the on-line gamer forums.

        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

        by bigtimecynic on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:00:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Go to Slashdot and Ars and reddit. (0+ / 0-)

        Now, they're singing a different tune.

  •  This also has to do with their ability to (8+ / 0-)

    organize.  They are attempting to cut off any IT person's ability to join unions or be treated in any way equal to a union worker.  Union rules don't have to be applied to managers by a company, and the same would happen with IT people.

    Occupy the voting Booth!

    by anonevent on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:07:49 PM PST

  •  Long hours for many salaried workers (14+ / 0-)

    has become rhe norm. There is no shortage of people in line waiting to take our jobs if we don't happen to want them anymore.

    •  Not just IT workers, but (7+ / 0-)

      many other salaried workers have been in that category for a long time.  I was one of those who worked in local government and regularly worked long hours including many night meetings.  My last week before I retired was typical with two night meetings and a 50 hour work week.

      We did receive compensatory time, but with understaffing, it was hard to use it.  I also lost annual leave that I could not use two of the last three years I was employed.  When early retirement was offered, I took it, mostly because I was continually exhausted.

      Employers do this to avoid hiring more people and paying more benefits. Forcing anyone to regularly work long hours, regardless of compensation, is wrong and at some point becomes counterproductive.  

      The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

      by gulfgal98 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:03:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, we have to remember that (13+ / 0-)

    the Democratic party is a big tent. So big, in fact, that we apparently have some Republican congress critters inside it.

  •  Before I retired from IT work (8+ / 0-)

    I held jobs that were exempt mostly, but then I became a consultant and got paid for every hour I worked. Some of my clients were more than an hour away and I billed them "portal to portal". Hell, that's what attorneys do so why shouldn't IT consultants.

    As far as this matter is concerned, I think that any change to the labor laws that will hurt IT workers is a BAD idea and I'll be calling my two senators.

    Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. Kin Hubbard

    by Mr Robert on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:19:59 PM PST

    •  on consulting (5+ / 0-)

      I book 300 an hour.  You pay for the first hour up front (that is just for me to show up) the next hour you get charged from min 1 on.  Doesn't matter the time I spend.  After that we break it down hour by hour.

      Those are starting rates.  If after 3 hours it turns out you have a major mess.  I'll drop what your problem is, lay it out, print your logs, and tell you it's 500 an hour for the rest or you can hire someone else.

      Than again, i work in security which is the hardest field to break into.

      IT workers just need to learn to tell people to get fucked.  You're email is being spoofed and they pulled your entire list of 8000 workers and contractors, and are sending out spam, yahoo mail blocked you?  Yeah, that's going to cost and it's going to take a long time to unfuck this.  You'll pay me now please.

      Don't even have a degree and I pull those rates, then again, I was IT for the Navy and have done some cool work.  And a DOD contractor after that.  I know what I'm worth, pay me or I will walk the fuck out of your office.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:28:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sounds unscrupulous (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        progdog, kurt

        You are saying that you start a job at $300 per hour and then raise the price to $500  right when they are depending on you most?   How do they know you aren't cheating them?  

        It sounds a lot like going to mechanic for an estimate, during which time he pulls your engine apart and then tells you it will be $4000 to fix it, or just $2000 to put it back together.

        Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

        by bobtmn on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:58:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But he's not doing anything (0+ / 0-)

          but looking at their data to get an idea of what needs to be done. Nothing's pulled apart.

          It's much more like seeing a doctor than a mechanic. The doctor runs some tests, examines you, tells you what he thinks the problem is, gives you options, and an idea of how expensive the options are. It's up to you to take it further - or get a second opinion first.

          •  And, there is not engine.. (0+ / 0-)

            My point is that the client already owes him maybe $1200, but nothing has been fixed.  If Mr $300/hr  leaves, he takes $1200 bucks and the clients machine is still broken.

            Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

            by bobtmn on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 11:55:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't do IT security (0+ / 0-)

              It takes a LONG time to determine if their was a breach or any data loss, and to get a handle on what might have happened.  An actual IT company can and will charge you thousands for this, far more than I will.

              These sorts of problems often cost tens of thousands to fix, they can be horrid.  I can get you in and out of it for about 2 grand if it's not that major, or at least get most of the work done before you hire a professional firm.

              Heck, I can repair a broken hard drive and save the data from it within that first 3 hour charge, normally you'd pay thousands for that.

              Am I the type of person you'd call to fix a basic home computer, probably not.  You might have had a breach that has all your client and billing data on it, you're probably looking for someone like me or better and we are not cheap.

              "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

              by overclocking on Tue Dec 13, 2011 at 07:22:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Lucky guy (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nchristine, progdog

        Are you just gloating?

        Most of us are lucky to get a small fraction of your charnges.

        FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

        by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:54:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I contract out to business not people (0+ / 0-)

          I'm a CISCO and security guy.  You're generally calling me after you have a security breach or after you lost a ton of data due to hardware failure.

          That costs THOUSANDS for an actual IT firm to fix, often tens of thousands.

          "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

          by overclocking on Tue Dec 13, 2011 at 07:18:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CALLING! (0+ / 0-)

      You rock, Mr Robert!

  •  I thought Bush made sure all IT work was (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Moody Loner, sb, boadicea

    exempt. I have never received overtime pay since I have been in this line of work....the best I ever hoped for was comp time....

  •  I feel like I'm living in the land of Limbo (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob, sb, Lily O Lady

    How low can you go...

  •  Question (0+ / 0-)

    Isn't $27 an hour full time over 50k a year?

    "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom. " - Death (Terry Pratchett character)

    by Thorby Baslim on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 08:58:31 PM PST

  •  I will absolutely (9+ / 0-)

    Be calling her tomorrow.  She is my Senator WTF is she thinking?

    He died with his potential intact.

    by bajadudes on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:04:51 PM PST

  •  I Worked At A Company For 23 Years (18+ / 0-)

    When I first started I, along with all other non executives, was in a Union and paid for all my overtime work (which some weeks was double my regular salary).  Well, the owner wanted to retire and sold this company.  We got a new president and he (along with the new owners now located in a Red State) felt that they needed to get as many of us out of the union as possible.  I was asked to leave the union and given a (at the time) generous raise to do so.  I left the union and soon enough I was working 24/7, had stomach problems, no life whatsoever out of my job and was a total wreck.  Of course there was now no overtime pay. They then decided to get rid of all the "oldtimers" you know, the ones who still remembered the good old days when we were treated as humans and not dirt.  I was let go, got a life back and my stomach problems began to heal.  It was the best thing they could have done for me.  

    Of course, all non executive employees deserve to be paid OT.  This is why I am now more of a firm believer in union protectionnions and the protection they give employees.  

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011)

    by Rosalie907 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:13:11 PM PST

    •  I guess this is one way private sector (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jillwklausen, CTPatriot

      unions were killed--by luring workers away from them for what seemed to be more pay. A good illustration of the need for solidarity.

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:15:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not just IT workers -- (7+ / 0-)

    who are well paid compared to other "professional" or "managerial" workers.

    This tactic of applying rules for really well paid executives to us peons goes way back. Hell, I've worked plenty of crap jobs where a pretty title and fifty cents will not get you a cup of coffee, because you'll work too much overtime to drink it.

    There is a whole slew of labor sectors where people aren't paid overtime. Assistant manager of the local taco bender? Why, son, you're an executive!

    Take heart, IT brethren and sistren. Lawsuits have been filed and won on this subject before. Though I don't how that would pan out against an act of Congress.

    •  OTOH (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluicebank, kurt

      I worked at a large Swiss bank as assistant test coordinator (i.e., the one that did the actual work). I was expected to be at my desk before 9 a.m. in order to print out test results for the analysts. Despite the fact that I created macros and tools to allow them to print everything out for themselves, I was expected to do the work for them.

      However, at the time, batch tests could not be made before 6 p.m. due to limited capacity on the host system. This meant that I had to work until midnight, actually running tests and monitoring the runs.

      One night I worked until 2:30 a.m. and had to get a taxi home. I got into work at 10:30, and was informed by some of my colleagues (who were very angry), that my resignation had been announced at the monthly department meeting, with the comment from the department head that i "seemed to believe that I had to work too much!"

      The only things that kept me sane were copious amounts of coffee, and the fact that the computer was unavailable over the weekend from 6 p.m. Friday.

      At least I got overtime paid out at time and a quarter, but that didn't compensate for near run-in with a nervous breakdown. But the department head didn't understand why I wanted to leave such a lucrative jop (less than $300 a month above the minimum for my pay grade).

      FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

      by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:11:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's exactly the problem. A Democrat (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jillwklausen, Jim Neal, kurt

      in Congress is proposing this. Sounds like the hand of ALEC.

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:17:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  That $23,000 a year (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PianoGuy, sb, Spoc42, jillwklausen

    Is actually $11/hr for a 40 hr/wk, 50 wk/yr employee.

    The Republican Party: The Bridge to Nowhere

    by flounder on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 09:39:01 PM PST

  •  Maybe IT Workers can get "bonuses" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluegrass50, sb, jillwklausen

    Race to the bottom rounding the corner of the final turn...

    "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

    by justmy2 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 10:25:33 PM PST

  •  Anti-family bill. (12+ / 0-)

    Brother, if I were running against Hagan, I'd pillory her in ads for tearig NC families apart. That kind of message resonates down there.

    We reach for the stars with shaking hands in bare-knuckle times.

    by TheOrchid on Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 10:35:24 PM PST

  •  utterly contemptible. Clearly she is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calamity Jean, jillwklausen, Jim Neal

    bought and paid for by people in the software business.

    This is so blatant.  You could not make this shit up.

    When will the Repubs condemn this as "special interest govt" and "not having a level playing field"?  Oh wait, the GOP would want to apply this to every single job.  

    •  It's not clear at all if you believe (0+ / 0-)

      Open Secrets:

      http://www.opensecrets.org/....  

      Computer and internet contributions are listed in 19th place among industries, far down the list.

      I know Hagen was cheered here and elsewhere when she won in 2008.  Is she a Blue Dog, mixed type or what?  Perhaps someone from NC can comment on what she's done in three years, but it's not at all clear why she would support this retrograde legislation if we look only at campaign contributions.

      A petty criminal is someone with predatory instincts but insufficient capital to form a corporation.

      by stlsophos on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:27:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  what does it mean she "introduced for herself" (0+ / 0-)

    Mrs. HAGAN (for herself, Mr. ISAKSON, Mr. ENZI, and Mr. BENNET) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions . . .
    does this mean they are co-sponsors or something? And is Mr. Bennet Michale Bennet of Colorado?

  •  This type of shit almost got me killed (24+ / 0-)

    At Bank of America, I was working 90-110 hours a week, holding on "till help could be obtained through the budget".  To say that help didn't arrive would be an understatement.  I had to have a heart attack at age 34 for to put a stop to it.  I'd get in at midnight to download the ATM Transactions when they became available and was often there when Day Shift Went Home.  Because I was doing the job of 3 folks, there were 3 people doing my job when I got back from disability, 3 months later.  Yes, I was doing stimulants to stay on my feet and yes that was wrong.  But I thought that the promises made to me were real and that I'd be rewarded when it was over.  The only thing that was real, was that I undermined my health and the Senior Vice President who didn't hire anyone to be a budgetary hero, got himself a bonus.

    This is the kind of shit that will get folks killed, while some pig gets rewarded for the effort that someone else does.  Corporations like Bank of America will use this bill to avoid paying overtime.  Worse yet, they already do!  Bofa has already had numerous IT Overtime Related Lawsuits and you can bet that this bill was written with their (and other Corporate Pigs) in mind.  Now, what this bill does is to legalize these practices.

    •  I wish you could testify before Congress.nt (0+ / 0-)

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:20:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Three people (4+ / 0-)

      I worked at a large Swiss bank (different one, this time). When I left to go freelance, I discovered that they had to advertise for three people to replace me. It wasn't that I was doing three loads of work (only 1.5, actually), but I was and am a generalist, able to cover multiple programming languages, development systems and tasks. I covered such a wide spectrum of tasks that they had no other choice, unless they could find another generalist. Being a generalist is now a problem, as employers are looking for cheap specialists and beginners.

      FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

      by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:23:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  CALL YOUR SENATOR AND DEMAND A NO VOTE ON THIS (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      We have to be our own lobbyist because clearly no one else is doing it for us!

  •  This is basically a formality... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jerry J

    I've been in software development almost 25 years, and have never received nor been offered overtime.  You're simply expected to work at least 50 hours per week without complaint.

    •  Let's leave it at expectations and then (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux, jillwklausen, kurt

      roll back those expectations. The IT profession has matured since the Reagan Administration when this class war really heated up. We need to realign expectations to more equitably share the profits from work done.

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:23:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  With friends like that (10+ / 0-)

    who needs Republicans ?

    Teddy had the Square Deal. FDR had the New Deal. Obama's got the BFD.

    by thenekkidtruth on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:55:03 AM PST

  •  Hegemony is relentless (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cybersaur, Lily O Lady, kurt

    they want it ALL.  And have the means to get it.

    If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. ~Malcolm X

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 03:11:38 AM PST

  •  This is one (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boadicea, Actbriniel, kurt

    of the many reasons I'm thinking of leaving IT.

    And do what? Well, there's the question, isn't it?

    Are you on the Wreck List? Horde on Garrosh.

    by Moody Loner on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 03:41:45 AM PST

  •  Not mentioned here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina Katarina

    Could it be a swipe at H1B employees?  Not sure about it seems custom tailored to make wage slaves of some of them...

  •  More and better? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shotput8, Spoc42, esquimaux

    Besides, the Good Senator has no choice:

    The Rethuglicans control the House.

    Would you rather have a Rethuglican Senator?

    Also, don't we have to be willing to "negotiate"?  Governing takes compromise - it's not like the Senator can wave a magic wand!

    I know we'll get something out of this, just haven't figured out what.

    I'm also certain that, if this passes, the GOP will agree to consider some future piece of legislation beneficial to the 99%.

    Criticizing a Democratic Senator only helps the Rethuglicans.

    Lesser of two evils and all that.  

    /angry snark

    Congress drags Obama down just like my friends make me drink on weekends.

    by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 04:51:20 AM PST

    •  What are you talking about? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      Who controls the House has nothing to do with legislation introduced in the Senate.

      And the choice Hagan had was not to introduce this crap legislation in the first place.

      It's her bill.

      WHY?

      Why did she decide to make this particular change to the Fair Labor Standards Act?

      Did she wake up one day and say, "Ya know, those IT guys are getting paid way too much and should not be entitled to compensation for their overtime hours. Something really ought to be done about this for the good of the country"?

      Seriously.

      Why?

      •  I was being sarcastic... tossing out some of (0+ / 0-)

        the revolving list of excuses used to explain away some of the actions Obama has taken - that didn't involve the House, Senate, or anyone else.

        Such as calling for more job outsourcing Free Trade.

        Sorry if the /snark wasn't apparent..

        Congress drags Obama down just like my friends make me drink on weekends.

        by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 11:04:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  yeah, so glad we got her elected (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 12:49:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, Lily O Lady

    how would this affect government IT workers?  It's the one sector of IT that has decent union representation.  

  •  Sadly, it's Democratic SenatorS. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, chancew, jillwklausen, kurt

    Added Michael Bennet (CO) in tags.   #onhisass

    The rich are eating the world. The Republicans are their teeth. The Democrats are dentists who refuse to pull those teeth because they are so beautiful and sharp.

    by Leftcandid on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 05:45:48 AM PST

  •  Yet another blunt fact (8+ / 0-)

    telling us that the Democratic Party is no longer the party of the people but just the other party of the owners. I'm fed up. Is it beyond redemption? Probably.

    "It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." George Carlin

    by psnyder on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 05:54:15 AM PST

  •  I would say "I don't work overtime" (5+ / 0-)

    At least that's what I'd say if I had a job and somebody didn't want to actually pay me for that overtime.

    We're not supposed to be indentured servants.  "Fair Labor Standards" means getting paid for the time you work.  All of it.

  •  You know why they're targeting us? (4+ / 0-)

    My guess is because we're just about the only sector which is still highly in demand.

    For example, I'm (still studying to be) a Ruby on Rails web engineer. When I make my resume available on Monster I'm inundated with offers, from $60k to $110k.  The last call I got I said I didn't think I was a good fit for the position, she said she didn't care, because they had searched for 4 days and hadn't come up with anyone who even remotely qualified. She said 'forget all the other requirements, we're just looking for someone who knows Ruby on Rails.'

    All this senseless bill will do is lower productivity.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." - Originally said by someone who can do neither.

    by bondibox on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:23:26 AM PST

  •  I lost my overtime pay years ago (0+ / 0-)

    I'm salary, not hourly, but officially we only work 40 hours a week.  We used to get overtime pay if we went over that, but they took it away a long time ago.

    I'm on a large project and worked 60 hours a week all through September/October.  Got paid exactly the same as if I'd gone home after 40.

    So I'd love to feel sympathetic on this.  But at this point in the game (I've lost my pension too), I don't know why I should fight for someone else to get better treatment than me.  Lost your pension and overtime?  Join the club.

    •  That is the way to go (5+ / 0-)

      Agricultural workers and restaurant wait staff don't get minimum wage.  So they should oppose wiping out minimum wage laws, right?

      If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. ~Malcolm X

      by ActivistGuy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:11:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raincrow, Cassandra Waites

        Kind of reminds me of something I saw on the news this AM. A local reporter was talking to a guy that drives trucks and was at the Port of Oakland waiting to drop off a load. He was talking about how backbreaking his work can be (I don't doubt him for a minute) and that he still barely gets by and can't afford to lose even a few hours of pay due to the port blockade and so he was adamantly opposed to it.

        The irony of what he said was completely lost on him.

      •  Actually I believe that restaurant (0+ / 0-)

        wait staff do get minimum wage. It's just that it's officially set lower. I remember seeing an official Department of Labor poster displayed at work (I worked food service in the summers while in college) that showed what minimum wage was for tipped employees. It was abyssmal, but official. This was many years ago.

        But to your implied point that applying the standards of the lowest common denominator to the rest of us rather than including those at the bottom into minimum wage is well taken. And minimum wage should be a living wage.

        "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

        by Lily O Lady on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:46:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If it was only minimum wage for some, yes (0+ / 0-)

        Unless you really don't believe in equal treatment for all.

        For your example, no, ag workers and wait staff should demand the same minimum wage that everyone else gets.

        But if you tell a group of workers that they don't deserve minimum wage, do you think they'll support giving min wage to others?  Why should they?  That's GOP bullshit, forcing the poor to support the rich.

        My case explains why public unions finally fell.  No Dem politican, no big special interest group ever came to defend me and others like me when we lost our overtime and pension.  No one said a damn thing.  No one also said a thing when outsourcing and H1B visas decimated the engineering field.

        Now do I think IT workers deserve overtime?  Yes.  I also think I deserve overtime.  But if I can't get it back for myself, how can I defend it for anyone else?

        When workers get divided and it gets broken up as private workers get shit on, but public workers get great pay and benefits, then the system collapses.  When workers aren't treated and protected equally, the system collapses.  And I stopped expecting politicians to care about me a long long time ago.

    •  This is why they are successful (4+ / 0-)

      everyone is more worried about someone getting more rather than fighting for what is right.

      I don't get any overtime either, but I think that non-managerial employees should

      #Occupy Wallstreet - Politicians will not support the movement until it is too big to fail.

      by Sychotic1 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:42:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I also think they SHOULD get overtime (0+ / 0-)

        But SHOULD isn't reality.  Reality is that in the land of global free trade, any worker who demands overtime finds his job shipped to India or China.

        So until this site is prepared to start demanding tariffs and the end of "free" trade pacts that only encourage outsourcing, it's going to be SHOULD for a long, long time.

        No one on this site wants to discuss tariffs.  OWS isn't demanding them.  And I still don't know why.

        •  Probably because it's pretty low on the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jillwklausen

          list of priorities in reality.

          What would help is definitely compensation reform and heavy taxation. Something like taxing a corporation the difference between all their outsource labor costs and the average salary per outsourced individual for the same job here might be a good start (obviously more technical and other assorted details notwithstanding, especially to take into account contracting with overseas firms rather than having an overseas operation run directly by the company).

          But then people here might complain about the subsequent rise in prices. This country has no idea how expensive our lifestyle really is. It's all subsidized by sweatshops (or worse).

  •  Surely a bill targeting particular workers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1

    and targeting them in a way so as to deny them rights of compensation can't be constitutional. This is legislated discrimination. What's to prevent such a law from being applied to disabled workers or gay workers?

    If Obama were to sign such a bill I would be stunned to the point of disbelief. What are the prospects for the bill at present? And what about states that mandate overtime pay? In New York State the law can be pretty strict about employees working more than 40 hours per week. Companies in NY have had to compensate many workers in court for overtime they have been denied.

    If this law is enacted, every IT person in charge of every server or database having to do with financial transactions should simply quit, walk away, and make themselves available as independent contractors. For double their original hourly wage.

    •  And send all their jobs to India, right? (0+ / 0-)

      Listen.. I'm at IT worker.. and I politely ask you to just butt out.

      We don't need your concern.

      We don't work regular hours and we don't expect overtime.. go meddle in some other industry.

  •  Not sure this makes much difference. (5+ / 0-)

    My wife has been a computer programmer-analyst since 1983, with a few years off to stay home with young kids.

    1. Most programmers and analysts at the companies she's worked for have been salaried employees. Which means they were already exempt from overtime-pay requirements.

    2. The trend is to make programmers and analysts "self-employed independent contractors," even though they sit in the same cubicles, work on the same systems, fix the same problems as the salaried programmers and analysts working in the same department, perhaps for years on end. When you're a "self-employed independent contractor," you get paid for every hour, which is the good part, though the company rarely permits you to work over 40 hours a week, and even when they do, you probably don't get a higher hourly rate. But the bad part is you don't get:

    A. A health plan.

    B. A retirement plan.

    C. Unemployment benefits.

    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

    by HeyMikey on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:42:10 AM PST

    •  i disagree, it is part of a bad management cycle (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt

      I have seen this in practice where some middle managers think this is a great idea and make all their IT workers contractors or outsource them to a company.  Then everything begins to suffer and grind to a halt usually coming to some major crisis and they, sometimes the very same middle managers, bring a bunch of them back into the company.  I have worked at good and bad companies and good companies don't do this.

      •  Why I think it's happening. (0+ / 0-)

        The company my wife has mostly worked for had a few long-term "independent contractors" in its IT department, including one who held that status for 15 or so years, while being generally regarded as very well-managed.

        Now that company has laid off 2/3 of its IT department (including my wife) and has hired a few people (including my wife) as short-term "independent contractors." The company has already sold off a few of its divisions, and I suspect they're getting ready to sell the remaining core. I think they want their permanent payroll to appear lean, to make their profit margin appear higher, thus inflate the company's sale value.

        In the broader market: Unfortunately executive compensation is often linked to short-term stock performance, which in turn is linked to short-term profit margin. Thus executives have an incentive to think short-term.

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:55:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Been there, done that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HeyMikey

      Had to create a company that did all three for me.

      FOSI: Full Of Shit Information - Both my sister and I are trivia freaks...

      by Spoc42 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:32:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And Johnathan Coulton becomes Prescient. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1, kurt

    That's RIGHT folks... your degree that you worked hard for?  Well, guess what!  You're now another code grinding monkey who will do what is told of them!

    (And I went into this field because it "Paid Well"... thanks folks...)

    One of these days, I'm gonna learn that I'm only really good at convincing people when I'm being a wiseass. Reviewtopia.net

    by detroitmechworks on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:44:34 AM PST

  •  Overtime? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jerry J, CatM, raincrow, kurt

    I am not sure what this amendment is trying to change.
    I thought the FLSA changed the status of 'Computer Professional" to Exempt (salary- no overtime) in 1992.
    Computer Employees Professional Exemption

    I have long been a salaried IT person. I might work 35 hours in a week or 86 (3 weeks ago).  

    I also have my own business and bill an hourly consulting rate.

    •  This is silly. IT workers do not get paid overtime (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow

      as it is.

      Perhaps you can legally ask for overtime.,. not sure if you are right or not..

      But it doesn't matter.. If you demanded overtime, you would be out on your ass looking for a new position.

    •  Well that does appear to be correct - for SOME (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, Cassandra Waites

      However, Section 13(a)(17) currently reads:

      (17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—

      (A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;

      (B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;

      (C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or

      (D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) the performance of which requires the same level of skills, and

      who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour.

      And that's where it ends and all it encompases.

      Senator Hagan's bill would change it to read (changes in bold):

      ‘(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--

      ‘(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;

      ‘(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;

      ‘(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or

      ‘(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;

      who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations.

      ~~~

      This not only adds the salary restriction to the hourly one, it creates many new positions that will no longer be entitled to overtime pay if this passes, including work merely "related to computers".

  •  I wonder how this would affect (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, raincrow, kurt

    contract workers. About half of all IT workers are not employees of the company they are doing the work for. They are contractors who are quasi-employees of an IT consulting  or recruiting firm. Hours are billed by the consulting company.

    But most of the IT workers for these consulting companies are sort of employees in name only. They don't usually get benefits like the rest of the professional staff.  They do not get paid vacations and receive no pay for holidays.

    Since these workers are hourly they seem to be included under this bill. So no overtime pay and no benefits and no paid time off.

    "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government" -Thomas Jefferson

    by Phil In Denver on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:40:24 AM PST

    •  Most don't get OT, benefits or time off. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      IT contractors may get  employee benefits (but not OT)  from the contracting firm if they're FTE's (i.e., hired and sent out on contracts and when not on a contract still compensated while "on the beach").  But lots of contracting firms just broker placements and do not actually hire the worker (i.e., not an employee so no employee benefits and no pay when not on a contract).

      The client who dictates the hours wouldn't pay OT.  The reason why contractors get higher hourly rates is because they're theoretically temporary and don't merit the investment (approx. 30%) of employee benefits and perks.  At least this is true in my very large degree of experience in NY and Ca.

      Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

      by kck on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 11:29:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not necessarily (0+ / 0-)

           I worked for a large contracting and software company - Compuware. Since the client was billed for the extra hours (if approved in advance), we were paid for that work. As a contractor I never gave anyone a free hour. When I worked for Union Bank as a salaried employee, we started out getting overtime, then just comp time and then nothing. A bonus system was instituted to make up for that loss, but bonuses were given out more for political reasons than actual extra effort. The bank CEO expected all salaried people to put in an extra 5 to 10 hours a week. Fortunately, I'm retired now.

        •  I should clarify that all hours are paid straight (0+ / 0-)

          ...time as opposed to what I call OT pay which is time and a half or some amount grater than 100% of the hourly rate.

          I think we 're on the same page.

          Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

          by kck on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:38:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think it might be in how one defines overtime (0+ / 0-)

        I've been a contract IT professional for over 15 years. I've never been paid a penny over my regular hourly rate no matter how many hours I worked, but I have ALWAYS been paid for every hour I worked.

        The clients almost always are paying an hourly rate and do indeed pay for the hours I worked, although whether that classifies as OT is another matter.

        "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government" -Thomas Jefferson

        by Phil In Denver on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 01:52:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Overtime is not a "Benefit" (0+ / 0-)

      It is a regulated right under federal law. You must pay overtime to entitled workers, or you will be fined, the employee will receive back overtime and the Feds will be in your books, looking for other violations.

      It is a CRIME not to pay overtime, not some wonderful favor from your boss.

      If you feel you are cheated, call the Dept. of Labor and have them handle your case for free.

  •  My Senator (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lily O Lady, raincrow, Jim Neal, kurt

    I called first thing this morning. Talked to a polite, well informed young man. I unloaded. Polite, firm, outraged.

  •  I hope there is organization in the industry's (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lily O Lady

    workers against this....the trade is highly specialized and solidarity would mean so many companies and corporations would grind to a halt.

    Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 08:16:02 AM PST

  •  another problem is that way too many (4+ / 0-)

    workers are now classified as "salaried" going down to very low levels of staffing in all kinds of organizations.  Very few people with office jobs get overtime.  These overtime laws are a joke

  •  IT work is not skilled labor (0+ / 0-)

    According to the Dept. of labor IT work is not skilled.
    It is technical not skilled.  It does not require a high degree of manual dexterity.  ie a carpenter is semi skilled a cabinet maker is skilled.

  •  Kay Hagan Is My Senator (5+ / 0-)

    and I just called her Raleigh office to register my dissatisfaction with the bill. She usually sends me a nice note about emails and does not make it responsive to my concerns. I wish I thought we could do better but I do not see her as responsive to progressives.

  •  Hagan's pushing because of the Research Triangle (6+ / 0-)

    Someone in NC and that area is convincing her the competition from China and India require the US and its tech hubs to ratchet down pay in order to compete.

    Tech IT folks thought they would be immune. And economist profs taught the bullshit in econ classes. I'm not quite sure where the political economists were when the tech flight took off for China.

    China hasn't been bashful at all about stealing advanced technology and patents. Someone thought exploiting Chinese workers would be a piece of cake.


    Bridge Closed: Republican Tax CUTS At Work

    You just gonna stand there and bleed
    Or you gonna do something about it?

    by bronte17 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:15:31 AM PST

  •  $27.63/h is more like $55k/y not $23,600 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bigtimecynic
    If Ms. Hagan's bill is passed, IT staff making $27.63 per hour or more, or $23,600 per year or more, will no longer be eligible for overtime compensation by law.
    This is confusing and sounds incorrect.

    IT pros are exempt for good reasons. Professionals starting at wages like $27.63/h and jobs that are not easily constrained to a 9-5 schedule are appropriately categorized at exempt.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:41:04 AM PST

  •  False Premises (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kck, kurt

    This is an update to the existing law which already exempts most IT workers.

    It adds testers, documentation types, and non-managerial "managers", e.g. scrum co-ordinators to the exempt list; some of this makes sense, esp. testers, who in the past decade or so have been asked to take on a lot more programming knowledge.  It also sets a minimum wage for exemption. (The current law has no minimum wage, which means that ALL workers meeting the criteria are exempt!)

    I've been an exempt IT worker for as long as I've had a direct hire job, I think.  This isn't the BFD everyone is making it out to be.  In some ways - the minimum wage part - this is actually an improvement on the current law.

    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

    by Phoenix Rising on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 09:55:38 AM PST

    •  I respect your disagreement (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, marvyt, CTPatriot

      We all see things from different perspectives, and that's okay.

      I posted a "side-by-side" analysis of the current text vs. the proposed new test above.

      I think it goes a lot further than adding just those few categories of workers that you listed.

      And I keep going back to, "why should the law tell my employer that he's allowed to work me like a dog and not compensate me for my time?"

      I do realize that many, many, many employees in this country already suffer from that fate. But do we need to keep adding more to the list?

      Don't big corporations already steal enough from our pockets by not paying us a fair share of the ever-increasing profit pie that we as employees are the ones actually generating?

      Just a few things to think about.

      I really appreciate your input, though! Thanks for posting!

  •  Hrm, I've worked in IT over 20 years (0+ / 0-)

    and I've never been compensated for OT except for the few jobs where I was hourly.  Usually the expectation is that I work as much as it takes to get the job done - and if I'm not working lots of OT then they obviously haven't assigned me enough work...

    New favorite put-down: S/he's as dumb as a flock of Sarah Palins

    by sleipner on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:11:24 AM PST

  •  Screw you Senator n/t (0+ / 0-)

    there is never time to do it right, but always time to do it over -6.88/-4.31

    by DeadB0y on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:38:32 AM PST

  •  Are you sure of your salary data? (0+ / 0-)

    I read this:

    However, in order to be exempt from overtime, both under current law and the CPU Act, IT workers must be paid $27.63 per hour or more, which translates to approximately $57,470 based on a 40-hour workweek.

    Here is the link.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 10:47:15 AM PST

    •  That's the law on all overtime in U. S. (0+ / 0-)

      The bill would make it any wages over $12 an hour, which is a big deal for some impoverished chump from overseas ready to put another American out of work.

      It's Bill Gates, plan for charity at home.

  •  Once there was a staff meeting (0+ / 0-)

    where I was forced to accuse (truthfully) co-workers of doing their work off the clock (at home sometimes) just to keep up with the casework.  I was a child abuse investigator in a unit that worked evening and night reports.  The work was complex and difficult.  Sometimes we would be out on cases until 3:00 A.M. then home for a few hours and in court at 8:00 A.M. to explain why we removed children from a home or facility.  I was forced to do so because at times we were assigned up to six cases each afternoon/evening and that was totally unreasonable and impossible.  The supervisor was trying to make a name for herself within the agency.  The high case turnover, on paper, was impressive.

  •  She's Honorary Co-Chair of Third Way (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CTPatriot, Jim Neal, jillwklausen

    The same group that wants to hike the Medicare age and lower Social Security benefits - the Ben Nelson wing of the Neo-Dem party.

  •  I JUST WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CTPatriot, Jim Neal

    For taking the time to post comments here. I've found solidarity and I've learned a couple of things, too. So thank you to everyone!

    But I'm especially flattered and thankful because this is my very first diary posted here at Kos, and I was certain it would sink like a stone. Wow, am I ever gobsmacked!

    So thank you again!

  •  I oppose this law, but (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, CTPatriot, Jim Neal

    just to be clear, this is an expanded but not a new exclusion; it amends one for computer professionals that has already been in place since 1990 (additions italicized):

    Section 2.13 Exemptions
    (17)
    any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled

    (A)
    the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
    (B)
    the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
    (C)
    the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;   or directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
    (D)
    a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and
    (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill; and

    who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations.

    The last sentence already applied to the workers previously covered by this section.

    The intent of this is clearly to update the law for changes in technology since 1990. Have any database administrators or network analysts actually been getting overtime pay? If there are, I think they have been keeping it under their hats.

    That said, I will add that I think salaried employment is a one huge scam perpetrated on workers. We give you a fixed amount of money, and in return there is no limit to what you give us. Fuck that. Pay people for the hours that they work.

    We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

    by denise b on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 12:02:40 PM PST

    •  Thanks for adding that, denise (0+ / 0-)

      I inserted the same to another reply above, as well.

      And while it appears to merely "update" the law to include changes in technology since 1990, not the addition of the verbiage, "including, but not limited to, work related to computers."

      That's a veeeeeeeery broad brush she's painting with, don't you think?

      •  Yes it is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jillwklausen

        and I don't see why IT workers should be excluded at all, or most people for that matter. Piece by piece they are chipping away at the FLSA.

        I had already been a programmer for 8 years when the 1990 amendment was made, but I wasn't aware of it until 1997, when I started wondering why it is that I was exempt although I wasn't a manager and wasn't a professional person directing my own work. When I found it, I asked around and none of my co-workers were aware of it.

        Or cared, for that matter. Not a one. It was a mark of status to them not to be an hourly worker, a 9-5er, a clock-watcher, and uncommitted slacker. They just accepted unpaid overtime as the price of being a "professional".

        I don't think I minded the occasional overtime during the 80s. I wouldn't have demanded to be paid for it in any case, because no one did and I didn't want to ruin my career, but also because I was still basically working a 37.5 hour week back then, with overtime limited to an occasional end-of-project crunch or production emergency.  And because, although it was usually not hour-for-hour, we could and did take comp time. And our extra efforts were noted and appreciated as being above and beyond.

        I realized later that it had been right after 1990 that things started to change. The occasional production emergency, followed by taking some time off when it was resolved, turned into working in the middle of the night for days on end and being expected at 8 a.m. to work a full day the next day. It turned into a workday that never ended. They really needed a second and maybe third shift to handle 24-hour operations, but they had no intention of paying for them - hence the changes to the law.

        The last year that I was working they decided that the on-call period started on Friday night instead of Sunday night, meaning that if you thought you had a two week vacation that included both weekends, or a 4-day holiday weekend, you didn't. You were due back on Friday at 5 p.m.

        You have opera tickets that you paid $200 for six months ago? Tough. You want to be reimbursed? Tough. You have guests coming to your house for dinner? Tough.

        I haven't worked for four years but as you can see this still gets me into a state just thinking about it. I got to the point where I was angry all the time.

        It's a scam. They get to own you, for a fixed amount of money. What other "professional" would put up with that? Anyway, it's not like we're there saving people's lives or launching rockets or anything. All we are is workers whose time the company doesn't want to pay for. Is that a good reason to throw my theater tickets in the trash?

        We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

        by denise b on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 06:05:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Preach It Sistah! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          denise b

          Oh denise I feel your anger and frustration. My husband is in IT, so when he's on call, I'm on call (meaning I get woken up in the middle of the night when he does and I have to plan events around when he's going to be on call).

          His last manager decided to make the on call schedule run from Tuesday morning through Monday night. At first they all thought she was an idiot, until she explained that any time someone was on call when a Monday holiday was on the calendar, they could still go away for a long weekend and not have to worry about being back to be on call on Monday. I thought that was rather thoughtful, actually.

          A lot of things have changed in the workforce since the late '80s and early '90s. That's when "Reaganomics" started taking hold.  And even after he was out of office and Clinton was in, Republicans still controlled congress!

          Republicans have been chipping away at worker's right for so many decades that there are people alive who actually think working 40 hours a week is a privilege and not the norm. And get paid for it? Pshaw!

          We fought long and hard to win these rights from our corporate overlords and look where we are now.

          No more middle class.

          No more 40 hour work weeks (seriously, I don't know anyone whose week is that "short." Anyone).

          Very little employer paid health care.

          Almost no union representation anymore.

          It's like they blew us back to the early 1900s!

          But what makes me the most angry about this is that Democrats have been complicit this entire time! I have been screaming from the rafters for decades that there's no such thing as "trickle down" economics. YEARS!

          But even Democrats took it as gospel. Why haven't they been calling the lie that businesses are the "job creators" all this time? Why did it take massive, cross-country protests for people to start telling the truth in this country?

          Okay, I could goon and on, too, so I'll stop here. I just want us to start paying attention to every bit of legislation being introduced and lobbying either for or against it as a population so our voices are as loud and as strong as the paid lobbyists.

          Thanks again for your informative posts!

  •  Yes, this is an expansion of existing law (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jillwklausen

    However, the law should be moving in the other direction. More workers need to be eligible for overtime. This law is just another step in the race to the bottom. Hagan is a corporate Democrat who needs to be exposed for the cretin she is. The 99 percent need to kick her ass out of office.

  •  Sen. Hagan's Sponsorship: No Surprise (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jillwklausen

    Kay is and always has been a corporatist politician. She operates under the naive belief that by joining forces with Senators Enzi (R-WY) and Isakson (R-GA) she is ushering in an era of bipartisanship. Her support for this legislation is no more than a hat tip to corporate America. Consciously or not she is a disciple of trickle down economic theory.

    This was not the only bill she sponsored in October. She and Sen. McCain sponsored the Foreign Earnings Reinvestment Act in another show of bipartisanship. That legislation was an ~$300 million bounty to American corporations that shelter profits abroad.
    In return for the repatriation of an expected $1 trillion in profits, those earning would only be taxed at rates between 5.25% and 8.75% in lieu of the normal 35% corporate tax rate. Sen. Hagan spun that legislation as a jobs bill, notwithstanding the fact that US corporations are already sitting on about $2 trillion in cash. She held a press conference to unveil the legislation at the HQ of an international corporation based in Research Triangle Park, NC flanked by corporate CEOs and the Chamber of Commerce.

    The only bipartisanship that legislation has garnered thus far has been opposition by both the Heritage Foundation and the Institute for Policy Studies.

    Obviously I understand Sen. Hagan well. I was neither surprised by her introduction of these bills nor the parties that they benefit.
    •  We got a notice in the mail this weekend (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      The U.S. government has signed some kind of new treaty with Denmark, so now my husband's bank and retirement accounts over there (his home country) will be sending earnings statements directly to the U.S. government so we can't fudge our personal tax returns and avoid paying tax on that $20 a year his money earns over there.

      At the full individual tax rate, of course. No "repatriation holiday" for us schmoes!

    •  The Only Way to Compromise with a Republican (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim Neal

      Is to do it their Way!  Bend Over and tell them Thanks, That was Nice!

      Republicans Don't Compromise!  They insist that it has to be their Way, Only Their Way, And All Their Way.  Then, they  will allow you to put your name on it and call it a Compromise.

      Hope the Senator Hagan enjoyed it!

      Impeach Grover Norquist! Defeat a Republican!

      by NM Ray on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:50:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Awesome! My career that I want to get... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim Neal

    and who the hell does this woman think she is trying to put us down? I know that I'm going to have to study my ass off and work long hours, but I love programming. I'm trying to teach myself PHP, and I know a little bit of Python, and I'm the webmaster of a site that uses Drupal. It's fun work but I like everyone, would deserve overtime. She probably thinks we're "lazy."

    http://punkitechs.blogspot.com/ (Punk, Technology, politics-my blog)

    by greenpunx on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:10:33 PM PST

  •  screw anyone who thinks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jillwklausen

    That we're just a bunch of nerds getting payed to play on a computer. I am so sick of people trying to make it about them saying "well that's the career you chose, I have to work 85 hours blah blah blah"... Boo hoo. Stop trying to "outsuck" people. We are fighting for social justice here, join us or get out of the way.

    http://punkitechs.blogspot.com/ (Punk, Technology, politics-my blog)

    by greenpunx on Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 02:20:21 PM PST

  •  Low Income Jobs targeted by Language of Bill (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jillwklausen

    There are a whole lot of jobs that are very low paid that would fall under the umbrella of this bill. People who answer the support lines, internal corporate help desks, the people who configure the computers or fix them, people who have glorified titles but just swap out images on websites - these are all hourly jobs that pay close to minimum wage.

    This isn't the first time that Congress has introduced a bill to try and target an entire Industry, playing of the ignorance of people who imagine that all IT workers are well compensated  Computer Programmers.  For every Computer Programmer with a six digit salary, there are ten IT workers in support roles who barely make a living wage and depend on the overtime and Holiday pay to make ends meet since the support staff is often called upon during evenings, weekends and holidays to implement changes.

Ottoe, Angie in WA State, renska, DeminNewJ, Alma, norwood, itsbenj, teacherken, deben, El Zmuenga, Ivan, glitterscale, badger, Gooserock, Danno11, Sprinkles, superfly, DDinIND, Shockwave, Emocrat, SanJoseLady, LynnS, Aspe4, KateG, eeff, xynz, jancw, hubcap, Creosote, missLotus, wonkydonkey, lippythelion69, boadicea, PBnJ, roses, Frederick Clarkson, ivote2004, Clues, bincbom, jalbert, ctsteve, Iberian, naperken, splashy, NMRed, kharma, psnyder, Moody Loner, hangingchad, danthrax, sockpuppet, ManhattanMan, DeadB0y, TiaRachel, potatohead, texasmom, HeyMikey, Sychotic1, alizard, zerelda, Curt Matlock, randallt, lonespark, Wife of Bath, marvyt, Josiah Bartlett, rmx2630, iliketodrum, Gowrie Gal, averageyoungman, joanneleon, G2geek, radarlady, Ckntfld, Unit Zero, el dorado gal, JanetT in MD, CTPatriot, democracy inaction, OpherGopher, PBen, run around, ChemBob, Brooke In Seattle, ratzo, Spoc42, majcmb1, peteri2, babatunde, Isara, Ozzie, WisePiper, Shotput8, sodalis, bunsk, peacestpete, zozie, begone, lcork, esquimaux, Medium Head Boy, Pinko Elephant, sherlyle, cybersaur, BlueInARedState, profundo, ActivistGuy, Naniboujou, arlene, pengiep, raincrow, blueoasis, NBBooks, TalkieToaster, MJ via Chicago, gooderservice, Terminus, Preston S, ER Doc, onionjim, thenekkidtruth, bajadudes, JugOPunch, James Hepburn, Timothy J, fiddlingnero, kurt, kurious, bstotts, Nulwee, cpresley, ammasdarling, One Pissed Off Liberal, bluicebank, ColoTim, gloriana, 0wn, blue71340, FishOutofWater, la urracca, wildweasels, tbirchard, operculum, Unbozo, bnasley, artisan, jayden, progressivevoice, jedennis, letsgetreal, millwood, pioneer111, leonard145b, Zydekos, janatallow, cloudbustingkid, Azubia, on the cusp, rmonroe, MKinTN, hkorens, JeffW, ferment, Sixty Something, Involuntary Exile, skohayes, wagdog, Its any one guess, Calamity Jean, Cassandra Waites, alnep, glendaw271, petulans, elpacifico66, James Kresnik, Karl Rover, Nica24, SpiffPeters, greenpunx, shortgirl, statsone, squarewheel, LaFeminista, Fiddlegirl, satanicpanic, J M F, Dirtandiron, aufklaerer, divineorder, An Affirming Flame, dark daze, notrouble, Partisan Progressive, BlueInRedCincy, RageKage, geebeebee, Shelley99, dalfireplug, sfarkash, haremoor, strangedemocracy, deviant24x, Leftcandid, Amber6541, Just Bob, commonmass, Broke And Unemployed, p gorden lippy, stegro, marcus38, Johnnythebandit, GeeBee, Arenosa, OnlyWords, DiegoUK, melfunction, Betty Pinson, elengul, kenwards, Oh Mary Oh, Actbriniel, redlum jak, freesia, myadestes, swale44, Cintimcmomma, Player to be named later, m00finsan, kevin k, Gamblndan, Alice Olson, trumpeter, marleycat, IllanoyGal, slooterdam, beka, enhydra lutris, Keori, bakeneko, SteelerGrrl, stlsophos, Mentatmark, SouthernLiberalinMD, No one gets out alive, Mathazar, DawnN, quill, Tentwenty, GenXangster, anodnhajo, Flying Goat, greenbastard, Siri, We Won, IndieGuy, Eric Nelson, Horace Boothroyd III, Mr Robert, pot, Fish in Illinois, the Don, radical simplicity, qannabbos, notdarkyet, Marjmar, Jonathan Hoag, DamselleFly, ocschwar, glorificus, Setsuna Mudo

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