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Do you want to see Mitt Romney get Mic Checked today in Iowa? I have the video right here! But first . . .

The Good:

Remember that memo that leaked out of Wall Street a while ago where they said the thing banksters fear more than anything else was an alliance between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street? Well, it is happening, and it is going to turn into the perfect storm, and that perfect storm is headed straight for a Wall Street Millionaires' yacht, The S.S. Mittens.

Now, about that Wall Street memo . . .

   The proposal was written on the letterhead of the lobbying firm Clark Lytle Geduldig & Cranford and addressed to one of CLGC’s clients, the American Bankers Association.

~snip~

    The CLGC memo raises another issue that it says should be of concern to the financial industry -- that OWS might find common cause with the Tea Party. “Well-known Wall Street companies stand at the nexus of where OWS protestors and the Tea Party overlap on angered populism,” the memo says. “…This combination has the potential to be explosive later in the year when media reports cover the next round of bonuses and contrast it with stories of millions of Americans making do with less this holiday season.”

http://occupywallst.org/...


Bold text added by the diarist

No candidate in the Presidential field in 2012 represents two faced Wall Streeters better than Mitt Romney. Occupy Wall Street knows it. The Tea Party knows it. Mitt Romney is Mr. 1%.

The Bad (Ass):

Mic Check Romney in Iowa from Today

Hat tip to ThinkProgress.org

Mitt Romney, Mr. "Corporations are people, my friend", a multi-millionaire worth over $200,000,000, a man who wants to cut taxes for the rich and make health care more expensive for the elderly, a man who refuses to release his tax records, a man who has been running for President for 6 years and made his vast wealth downsizing workers, that Mitt Romney got Mic checked today by Occupy protesters (twinkle fingers!)

And, of course, his response was to play it cool and say, "Isn't it great!" Don't take too hard of a stance, Willard!

For The Ugly and more, go below the fold.

The Ugly:

On the other side, Tea Party Nation Founder Judson Phillips yesterday announced on Martin Bashir's show that “The Tea Party will never rally behind Mitt Romney.”

    “Never!” Phillips reiterated. “I think I told you this before, we’ve done surveys on our site where it shows one third to one half of the Tea Party members will not vote for Mitt Romney if he is the nominee in the general election — which is probably going to encourage Team Obama to send out people to vote for Romney in the primaries. But Iowa is the first step in this whole process. A week from now we will be talking about New Hampshire, two weeks from now, we’ll be talking about South Carolina and three weeks from now we will talk about Florida.”

“In all the national polls, Newt Gingrich is still right up there at the top,” Phllips added. “He does well in South Carolina and Florida, of course, the other good news that will be coming out of this is at least one candidate is going to dropout. Since the conservative vote is so fragmented right now, whoever drops out, presumably Bachmann, her supporters are going to somewhere. Hopefully from my point of view, it will be Newt. Wherever they go, they’re going to help one of the conservative candidates.”

Phillips later said as the race goes on, we will see “this coalescing and it will be around Newt Gingrich. It will happen. Eventually it will send Mitt Romney to the showers.”

Bold text added by the diarist

   Dang. When 1/3 to 1/2 of Tea Party voters polled by Tea Party Nation say they will NOT vote in the General Election for Mitt Romney no matter that's gotta hurt.

   For Mitt Romney, this is going to get really, really ugly.

Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com   But Phillips is right, as the openly crazier Bachmann's and Perry's and other laughable GOP candidates fall off their supporters are going to go to some candidate who is NOT Romney. That's why they were supporting Bachmann or Perry or frothy Santorum in the first place, they just don't like Mitt Romney! I can see Huntsman supporters going to Romney, but there is no way in hell that a Perry or Ron Paul supporter is going to vote for Mittens Mitt Romney has been trying to appeal to more moderate voters and that makes him UNPURE to the "the gays are gonna burn in hell" GOP extremist values voter who thinks that the best way to reform Wall Street is to not regulate them at all. Mitt is screwed. If Mitt tries to pander to the crazy xenophobes in his tent as he did when he said he'd veto the DREAM Act he risks losing Latino voters, who he is already losing 3:1 to Obama. That is just the start of Mitt's flip-flopping worries. On issue after issue, if Mitt doesn't toe the most extreme right wing line he risks screwing himself with either his base or the general public, and even worse Mitt has his Wall Street friends to pander too as well. Mitt has taken more positions than a contortionist, he's a phony, two faced flip-flopper and all of us know it. You can't say "Let them eat cake" and then try to have your cake and eat it too.

   Mitt is going to get crushed from both sides, from Occupy for being a sold out 1%er-friendly plutocrat, and from the tea party for not being a flip-flopping opportunist who can never pass the pre-requisite conservative purity tests, and as Mitt vacillates between trying to appeal to moderates that he can't win the General Election without and extremists who he can't win his party's nomination without all I can do is sit back and laugh at the beauty of watching a phony Wall Street hack twisting in the wind.

   So there it is, the Tea Party/OWS alliance that the banksters were shitting themselves over has arrived. It happened organically, and without any outside influence both Tea Party and OWS activists can agree that Mitt Romney is a phony two faced clown and a Wall Street crony who should not be elected President of the United States of America.

   Finally! Bipartisanship we can believe in. Now someone go buy Thomas Friedman a drink, he's gonna need it.

Cheers!

Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com

You can follow me on Twitter @JesseLaGreca

Peace and love to all

Originally posted to MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 11:49 AM PST.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street, Progressive Hippie, and ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement.

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  •  Tips for strange bedfellows (374+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, commonmass, Debbie in ME, llbear, bluehen96, ItsaMathJoke, bear83, science nerd, ColoTim, cotterperson, Shahryar, Vetwife, bluicebank, blueoasis, Rumarhazzit, Mayfly, Azazello, Railfan, Thomas Twinnings, Yellow Canary, Marie, joe wobblie, Laurilei, theKgirls, TheGreatLeapForward, cany, LucyandByron, Herodotus Prime, TexMex, Captain Chaos, tin woodswoman, DeminNewJ, bibble, kevinpdx, AnnieR, beefydaddy18, zerelda, Loudoun County Dem, Evolutionary, concernedamerican, RunawayRose, thenekkidtruth, OLinda, JDWolverton, mconvente, number nine dream, Kamakhya, carver, DRo, buckstop, a2nite, greenbastard, TheGrandWazoo, cybersaur, ladypockt, fou, Cofcos, deepeco, vrexford, bfitzinAR, drewfromct, Dave in Northridge, DianeNYS, Eddie L, elliott, Betty Pinson, jgnyc, AnnetteK, SueM1121, Chitown Kev, qannabbos, tegrat, Vayle, dear occupant, lynncosbm, stlsophos, wyvern, tardis10, mdmslle, rapala, linkage, cookseytalbott, Tom Stokland, Puddytat, drawingporno, koosah, elengul, Missys Brother, peachcreek, adrianrf, djMikulec, blue aardvark, Dirtandiron, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Lepanto, Aint Supposed to Die a Natural Death, shari, EdinGA, citizendane, gsbadj, KBO, ontheleftcoast, kevin k, kestrel9000, semiot, DawnN, MikePhoenix, bglv, Brainwrap, MrJayTee, Terminus, Lisa Lockwood, emal, FindingMyVoice, Horace Boothroyd III, shesaid, pioneer111, Thinking Fella, Bionic, gerrilea, Kurt from CMH, SaintC, Prof Haley, alguien, hulibow, NYWheeler, LamontCranston, GAladybug, EquityRoy, tapestry, Clytemnestra, Brown Thrasher, Shakludanto, ichibon, Supavash, oceanview, Gowrie Gal, Winston Sm1th, SeattleTammy, BusyinCA, esquimaux, One Pissed Off Liberal, Rogneid, Executive Odor, molunkusmol, nannyboz, Crabby Abbey, SteelerGrrl, nother lurker, 1BQ, rb608, dmhlt 66, markthshark, 88kathy, tofumagoo, GreenDog, createpeace, Emerson, boadicea, noemie maxwell, Box of Rain, Free Jazz at High Noon, FarWestGirl, mungley, Susan from 29, dwahzon, Wreck Smurfy, vahana, G2geek, Caddis Fly, Bluesee, deha, FloridaSNMOM, pixxer, legendmn, admiralh, mujr, Renee, LillithMc, broths, magicsister, Skennet Boch, eru, Gorette, eeff, Jake Williams, Statusquomustgo, majcmb1, Alumbrados, SaraBeth, freeport beach PA, TigerMom, alrdouglas, bythesea, defluxion10, Damiana, glitterscale, Prospect Park, kathny, Bear, stevej, Brooklyn Jim, Nag, Floande, Dreaming of Better Days, maybeeso in michigan, notrouble, WiseFerret, water willow, bsmechanic, shaharazade, ItsSimpleSimon, jedennis, quill, maggiejean, AoT, sawgrass727, rasfrome, quaoar, timethief, DamselleFly, Shaking the Tree, jacey, hotdamn, frisbee, IreGyre, nofear, boofdah, Publius Cornelius Tacitus, banjolele, notdarkyet, bnasley, OleHippieChick, FrY10cK, glbTVET, ChuckInReno, fixxit, chimpy, kitebro, bula, Youffraita, CoyoteMarti, Agent99, La Gitane, viet vet, bloomer 101, Shockwave, goobop, BYw, thomask, SherwoodB, No one gets out alive, JayRaye, Mathazar, joedemocrat, timewarp, luvmykona, Ynilp, NBBooks, Jollie Ollie Orange, Catte Nappe, ruleoflaw, Lujane, Tam in CA, kaliope, PeterHug, millwood, Seamus D, California06, katrinka, c0wfunk, jimreyn, catwho, SadieSue, ferment, rmonroe, NonnyO, OldDragon, TexDem, Marjmar, frisco, Debs2, ClutchCargo, asterkitty, where4art, Had Enough Right Wing BS, SallyCat, jamess, EeDan, markdd, rlharry, Fiona West, prgsvmama26, dle2GA, PBnJ, antirove, Sharoney, Nailbanger, Bule Betawi, ChemBob, aerie star, trivium, Josiah Bartlett, ZedMont, peptabysmal, strangedemocracy, Cheyenne Mike, MRA NY, sailmaker, Yosef 52, doingbusinessas, VoteBlue, Libby Shaw, fumie, fiddlingnero, Spaghetti Western, Midwesterners, Xapulin, Creosote, 207wickedgood, rsmpdx, ozsea1, Unitary Moonbat, homogenius, SoulCatcher, Gemina13, kurt, radical simplicity, AaronInSanDiego, YellerDog, SoCalHobbit, AreDeutz, Sandino, Unknown Quantity, Democrats Ramshield, pgm 01, James Kresnik, riverlover, yaque, coppercelt, Egalitare, Crashing Vor, JimWilson, venger, the mom in the middle, gulfgal98, gramofsam1, Kentucky Kid, VT ConQuest, Dallasdoc, davelf2, MartyM, PBen, Indiana Bob, NJpeach, M Sullivan, Zydekos, hyperstation, trueblueliberal, catilinus, Matt Z, US Blues, OpherGopher, Shadowmage36, jw1, rambler american, TX Unmuzzled, flowerfarmer, dailykozzer, ocular sinister, Glen The Plumber, xylonjay, TheLawnRanger, MsGrin

    At least there is one thing Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party can agree on, Mitt Romney should NOT be President!

    #OccupyWallStreet ~ I will protest when and where I damn well please. I have the constitution in my pocket. That is my permit.

    by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 11:49:10 AM PST

      •  you remember the Clipper chip! (49+ / 0-)

        That ultimately is the proof that 9/11 wouldn't have happened under a Gore administration:  he took very seriously what the intel agencies were telling him.  So he would also have taken seriously the CIA warnings about Al Qaeda planning a major attack, and quietly beefed up airline security, thereby catching the terrorists before they could get on the planes.

        The headlines would have read, "Major terrorist plot foiled! Would-be hijackers caught!" and the public would have been shocked about "what might have happened."

        We would be living in a very different world right now.

        Just one more of the many things that was changed by that execrable Supreme Court decision in 2000.  

        And one more part of the reason we have got to GOTV as if our lives depend on it: for all his imperfections, Obama is light years ahead of any of the troglodytes the Republicans could possibly nominate.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:00:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tipped for "execrable". (3+ / 0-)

          (Besides the unasailable facts.)

          (That sound you are hearing is a paradigm being shifted at Warp Factor Infinity using no clutch.)

          by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 10:34:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think if Gore was president and (0+ / 0-)

          had prevented the 9/11 attacks from happening, headline or not, the american public would have shrugged their shoulders and yawned. We were living under a sense of false security, sure that no one could come from there and do that here.

          The attacks on 9/11/01 were only shocks because they succeeded. Had they been prevented, the masses could have gone on under the illusion we were too big to f with. I didn't realize until 9/12/01 how much I enjoyed that illusion and how it informed my world view. Oh, how I wish those days had not been so horribly interrupted! We would not have had the ensuing decade of fear-mongering and the subsequent surrender of our liberties and rights.

          The Goodle Days.

          The Right beats its chest over the symbols of America, while the Left works to sustain her substance.

          by Gentle Giant on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:52:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Media has turned us into saps and suckers (10+ / 0-)

        Kudos on the post.    Not all but far too many in the media play us a irrelevant saps and suckers so as to divide us on relatively mundane issues.    The important issues are war, liberty and the Bill of Rights, and of course responsible government of and for the USA people not the 1% or for global interests.

        The media profits from divide and they will profit from Citizens United all at the expense of our democracy.   We need a UNITED United States and the Parties and media  work hard to keep it divided and a poorer 99% at the benefit of the 1%.

        Make no mistake.......this observation of an alliance between the TP and OWS  will be fought at every opportunity by the Parties and the media and most especially by the 1%.

        Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

        by dailykozzer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:46:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Common cause can be made on economic issues (9+ / 0-)

          even where deep political differences exist. Many years ago  I was shop steward. Many of our members were Reagan type young republicans. Yet, when we had our big safety fight, we were totally united. Even with both the boss and our union rep against us. We won that fight. If the boss thot hiring from a radical right wing Christian college would bust the union in that shop, he was wrong. Those kids were educated thru struggle. I'm not saying that they were no longer Republicans, but their world view was broadened.  Writing off all Teabaggers, is a mistake. Can't help making fun of them at times. But important to keep the lines of communication open. Some posting on this thread have said that all Teabaggers are middle class, not my experience at all. There is a term for the Teabaggers that I know down here in Texas, but probably shouldn't use. At any rate, they frustrate me to no end, but some I am close to, so can't just throw them away. Educate, cajole, confront, but don't give up on them.

          If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

          by JayRaye on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 05:54:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Naww. The 1% would love that alliance. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe wobblie

          Why? Because they know it's a great way to tame the OWS movement and get them to compromise with the right.

          If I believed in conspiracy theories per se, I'd think they purposely tried to set this up all along.

          Great way to take the wind out of the sails of a left-wing movement for social and economic justice. Pair them with a right-wing group that fights against social and economic justice on behalf of the Koch brothers, Karl Rove and Dick Armey.  

          Actually, it's quite brilliant, if you think about it.

          •  The 1% already has their alliance (3+ / 0-)

            with the bipartisan Beltway Consensus. The grand alliance can gin up wars, get their taxes slashed, geld unions, expand oppression, export jobs and the push austerity on everyone who isn't a card-carrying member of the 1%.

            •  Well said (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              James Kresnik

              You said it better and more succinctly.    

              Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

              by dailykozzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 09:40:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The 1% would love such an alliance???? (0+ / 0-)

            I beg to disagree.  They are scared to death of average Americans of all ideologies that awaken to the reality of the shafting they have been receiving from the 1%.  

            THEY the 1% created ideologies to keep us bickering amongst our own while they plunder and pillage.   They are able to create beneficial propaganda for their own because they own the media.  They create false reasons to wage perpetual war for the mil-industrial complex.  They convince us that the casino of Wall St,  financial markets, investment bankers (like Mitt or Rahm), and the hired hand CEO managers should wear halos as "job creators".    

            THEY blindly brainwash us by putting job creation on a pedestal without defining the quality or potential harm of said jobs.   They made a big deal about 50K new McDonalds jobs?  They claim energy jobs that destroy our environment so we can ship our energy to China, are good for America.

            THEY the 1% ARE THE ALLIANCE.  As George Carlin RIP says:  

            "Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions.

            Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls."

            Read more: http://shoqvalue.com/...

            Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

            by dailykozzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 09:35:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The tea party loves the 1% (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe wobblie

              That's where your idea falls apart.

              They love capitalism and capitalists. They love personal wealth accumulation and couldn't care less about inequality.

              They're the perfect stooges for the 1%. And they have repeatedly blamed the poor, minorities, unions and middle class public servants for all of our problems.

              Come on. Wake up.

      •  Dogs & men (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ozsea1, Angie in WA State

        Insisting on the freedom of our love!

        So how do we make the Tea Smokers (really, you'd be surprised at how many of them are potheads) see that the Santorumoron is a dire enemy of the freedom they claim to love?

        •  go get high with 'em and talk. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye

          Progressives who are into recreational marijuana can go get high with the TP-ers and just hang out and chat.  

          And then casually bring up, "hoo-boy, if Santorum gets in, this shit's gonna' get more illegal and more expensive!"

          If we can't persuade 'em to "vote their wallets," maybe we can persuade 'em to "vote their pot stashes."    

          Now of course Obama isn't exactly warm & fuzzy about the green stuff either, having smoked it and then given it up long ago.  Right now he probably considers it an annoying habit that some of his old friends still have, and he wishes they didn't.  (I can practically hear him saying on the phone, "Dude, you been smokin' dope again.  Call me back when you can remember a whole sentence, OK?")  But none the less, the chances of making progress on this front are better with him in the WH than with any of the Rs.  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 10:29:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Rick, is that you... (0+ / 0-)

          :)

          /snark

          I couldn't resist, and I'm not sorry.

          :)

          * * *
          I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
          * * *
          "A Better World is Possible" - #Occupy

          by Angie in WA State on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 10:30:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You can kiss this alliance goodbye if Paul wins. (20+ / 0-)

      Tipped and rec'd for an interesting post.  Keep it up Jesse. We're all rooting for you.

      •  I disagree that the alliance can't survive a Paul (6+ / 0-)

        win.

        Why do you think it won't?

        In spite of the pop-culture vampire revival, we're still missing the underlying social metaphor of the original Dracula: Those exotically beguiling aristocrats are sucking our blood. - Pericles

        by citizendane on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:29:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What alliance? (19+ / 0-)

        This isn't an alliance.  There's no talk of coordinated efforts, etc.  This is merely two groups who equally dislike a third.  

      •  The Ron Paul people where at Occupy LA... (6+ / 0-)

        ...every time I went.

        They seemed quite comfortable there.

        Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

        by Shockwave on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 05:05:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So What? (6+ / 0-)

          I'm sure many people who don't support Ron Paul were also there.  I'm sure they were quite comfortable too.  

          Everyone was invited to OWS, even (gasp) Ron Paul supporters.  They didn't have a purity test whereby Ron Paul supporters, or anyone else's supporters for that matter, would be excluded.  Everyone was welcome.  

          •  You're missing the point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shockwave

            Ron Paul supports are natural Tea Party members.  He's the godfather of the Tea Party movement.  If they are also coming out to support OWS, then (gasp), there is a welcome synergy between the two camps.

            Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

            by lostboyjim on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 08:30:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ron Paul is Wall Street's best friend. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dallasdoc, Matt Z, fou, joe wobblie

              He wants to deregulate it completely. All corporate and business in America. Ron Paul doesn't believe the Federal government even has the constitutional right to regulate business. He thinks all of that's an infringement on property rights. Hence his hatred for the Civil Rights Act.

              And aside from deregulating capitalism in general, he's for slashing the taxes of the rich and their businesses. Oh, and he wants to privatize Social Security, which would send trillions of dollars into their greedy little hands.

              I am continuously baffled whenever I talk to his supporters and they say he's some kind of populist champion against corporate America. How? He's against government interference in the market place; he wants to dramatically cut their taxes; he wants to radically privatize public services . . .

              Come on, people. Wake up!!

              •  Wall Street depends on deficit spending (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RanDomino, Dallasdoc

                and government patronage to make their wild profits. A libertarian president wouldn't be a hindrance to wealthy, but he wouldn't be any real help either, and passively standing by simply isn't good enough for the super-wealthy anymore. They would much rather have a corporate socialist like Romney in power.

                •  can't believe it took this many posts to say (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie, Dallasdoc, JayRaye

                  If you're going to criticize a group, at least have an accurate idea of what its internal logic is.  Ron Paul libertarians and Occupy people see overlap in issues of civil liberties, war, and (most importantly) government collusion with big business.  Libertarians are capitalist ideologues, not necessarily corporate prostitutes, and on those grounds they see things like the bailouts as being against capitalism.  It's really an alliance of coincidence more than anything else, but that's what it is.  Conflating Ron Paul libertarians with arch-conservative value-voters just doesn't have anything to do with reality.

                  •  Ron Paul isn't a libertarian. He's a propertarian. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joe wobblie

                    And he puts "states rights" above individual rights, which is evidenced in his We the People Act:

                    Ron Paul's We the People Act

                    Read that and tell me he's not attempting to crush civil liberties and clear a path for theocracies, state by state.

                    And those "value-voters" you speak of? They love him. He's one of them and has been stroking them for votes for decades.

                    Read Michelle Goldberg's latest:

                    Michelle Goldberg

                    And this article, from Religion Dispatches, which goes deeper:

                    Better dead than Fed

                    •  I know they're propertarians, but (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      joe wobblie

                      they're generally called libertarians so there's no reason not to just go along.  Also I think there's an important distinction between Ron Paul and his supporters.  A significant portion are on the same page as him on all issues.  Others are civil libertarians.  The rest are propertarians (they would of course say they're pro free market).

                •  Wall Street doesn't need government support (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie

                  All they need is capitalism, which necessarily creates economic apartheid. The degree of destruction can be mitigated by government, but if government stands to the side, then Wall Street will will do even better. The financial sector quadrupled in power after government here and abroad deregulated it. Government stepped out of the way and made the financial sector vastly more powerful.

                  And if you think deficit spending brings them support, how about privatizing Social Security and the trillions it would bring to Wall Street?

                  Come on. Ron Paul is a corporate stooge. He's their dream come true.

              •  No, Ron Paul's ideas wouldn't work for anyone (0+ / 0-)

                in the real world. The 1% would be just as f@#$ed as everyone else without government bailouts, without government at their beck and call (they don't pay all those lobbyists for nothing). The real money people are in no hurry to return to the 19th Century. They can talk about how much they'd love real competition and free markets because they know they'll never have to face it in real life.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:40:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Not this supporter of OWS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe wobblie

        I'm fiercely opposed to any kind of cooperation with the tea party. It's a terrible idea, as is any cooperation with the Ron Paul Borg.

        The tea party is just the right-most edge of the GOP, and Ron Paul is just a neoconfederate hawk for capitalism in sheep's clothing.

    •  Whoa I Went Home With You? (9+ / 0-)

      I hope this doesn't turn into a walk of shame.

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:57:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And who do they want to win? (29+ / 0-)

      And what "common cause" do we have with them precisely?

      Nothing more than one mutual enmity. The 1%. And if I have no interest in allying with the Tea Party for any reason at all. They are bigots who would like to see the economic system fall apart under isolationist Libertarian anti-taxation rhetoric.

      There is no common cause other than a deal with the devil to be had there.

      Tea Partiers are part of the problem.

      •  I hereby commit a Godwin violation (21+ / 0-)

        but damn I'm glad Churchill and Roosevelt didn't share your opinions as regards the Stalin - Hitler issue.

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

        by blue aardvark on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:25:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Godwin Police (9+ / 0-)

          You don't violate Godwin, you sastify it. Violating Godwin is technically impossible since it allows for infinite amounts of time for it to become true. You merely sastified it in a relatively short amount of time which is sometimes appropriate. So it's just a misdemeanor this time for getting the sense of the term wrong.

          Compassionate Conservatism is letting all the bridges collapse so you won't have to live under one after losing your home when they cut off your unemployment insurance.

          by ontheleftcoast on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:35:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No. It implies that our nation and its needs (17+ / 0-)

          are fundamentally white, male, and heteronormative, since to my knowledge, the Tea Party eschews all that is not these things. In other words, to see eye to eye with them, to perceive that one needs what they need, one must be looking through white, straight eyes... would they not?

          That's not an America which I am interested in myself, sorry. I don't see common cause there of sufficient merit to override my aversion to bigotry.

          A more apt example might be something like Washington and slavery. Most are very glad that he set the ball rolling in starting the experiment that is America, but he did so on the backs of black slaves. Are we glad to have found common cause with him? Many whites are without much thought. But for those he would have enslaved? This was just in mind since I spent a few days at his estate, touring it, and viewing his slave quarters just days ago. Then, there was a small museum where one could watch various apologia for his slave-holding. It left me thinking quite a bit about how many principles people are willing to set aside for what they perceive to be a "greater good" when in actuality, principles of some sorts ought never be set aside. At least not in a Democracy which is meant to be inclusive.

          So the social element cannot, for many, be extricated from the fiscal element here. And that is that. If it can be, one may have to have a very limited vision of who is included in the Tea Party's vision of American reform. That is something well worth being very cautious about. I've seen too much of their hatred toward Latinos and Muslims firsthand to not notice it.

          •  well said, I agree completely n/t (5+ / 0-)

            America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

            by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:03:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  and yet, absent slaveholders Washington.... (5+ / 0-)

            ... and Jefferson, et. al., we would most likely still have slavery.

            Count on this: bigotry on the TP side is the direct result of their ill-informed reaction to their economic circumstances.  Once we start getting economic justice, that problem will begin to resolve.

            And once we start getting economic justice for the TP-ers, many of them will come around on other issues as well.

            Remember: "red meat" is what the burglar tosses over the fence to distract the guard dogs so he can break in and rob the place.  Don't take the bait!

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:13:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not at all. If we were still a colony of England (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wytcld, Dallasdoc

              emancipation would have occurred decades earlier.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:58:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The vast majority of the TP (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive

              HAVE economic justice already....they are predominantly upper middle class,  college educated, employed, and overall not adversely affected by the economy.

              Yeah, they are the 99%....but at the upper end of it. And for the most part seemed only concerned with themselves and people like them.

              I'm with MO on this one, sorry

              The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places ~Ernest Hemingway
              Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle ~ Anonymous

              by SwedishJewfish on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:02:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just factually wrong (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek, ozsea1, Egalitare, Dallasdoc

                The Tea Party is lavished with funds from the Koch bros. & friends, but the folks in the demonstrations and the local chapters are thoroughly working class. Look at their signs. They can't spell, most of them. You can't make it beyond lower middle class with language skills that bad.

                Much of the upper middle class is no smarter than most of the working class, but they've gone to better schools, for more years. There's a bit of a veneer on them, even when there's not much inside.

                As for the upper class, a large portion may be of questionable morality, but they ain't dumb. Whether they've gotten there honestly or by swindle, it took some sort of smarts to do it. Yeah, some inherit, but that's far less of the top 1% than it used to be. It's mostly new money now.

                Those Wall Street swindlers today are out of Harvard and the other Ivys. They all test as very bright. They all know how to write a least a signboard's worth of coherent English.

                And they wouldn't be caught dead at a Tea Party rally.

                •  Factually correct (4+ / 0-)

                  and that's only the half of it...

                  http://www.nytimes.com/...

                  Tea Party supporters are wealthier and more well-educated than the general public, and are no more or less afraid of falling into a lower socioeconomic class, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

                  The 18 percent of Americans who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters tend to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45.

                  They hold more conservative views on a range of issues than Republicans generally. They are also more likely to describe themselves as “very conservative” and President Obama as “very liberal.”

                  Tea Party supporters’ fierce animosity toward Washington, and the president in particular, is rooted in deep pessimism about the direction of the country and the conviction that the policies of the Obama administration are disproportionately directed at helping the poor rather than the middle class or the rich.

                  The overwhelming majority of supporters say Mr. Obama does not share the values most Americans live by and that he does not understand the problems of people like themselves. More than half say the policies of the administration favor the poor, and 25 percent think that the administration favors blacks over whites — compared with 11 percent of the general public.

                  They are more likely than the general public, and Republicans, to say that too much has been made of the problems facing black people.

                  Asked what they are angry about, Tea Party supporters offered three main concerns: the recent health care overhaul, government spending and a feeling that their opinions are not represented in Washington.


                  Tea Party supporters over all are more likely than the general public to say their personal financial situation is fairly good or very good
                  . But 55 percent are concerned that someone in their household will be out of a job in the next year. And more than two-thirds say the recession has been difficult or caused hardship and major life changes. Like most Americans, they think the most pressing problems facing the country today are the economy and jobs.

                  But while most Americans blame the Bush administration or Wall Street for the current state of the American economy, the greatest number of Tea Party supporters blame Congress.

                  They do not want a third party and say they usually or almost always vote Republican. The percentage holding a favorable opinion of former President George W. Bush, at 57 percent, almost exactly matches the percentage in the general public that holds an unfavorable view of him.

                  The image of them as working class stiffs engaged in a populist uprising, the idea that they are anti-wall street, or that they share ANYTHING in common with OWS is entirely based on a myth that has been perpetrated by the media. It's a much more interesting story than what is actually true-that they are white, conservative republicans who only took to the streets when a Democrat (and a Kenyan Muslim Socialist to boot!) got elected, and they had the nice chartered buses paid for Koch and Co. to take them there.

                  In other words, they are the republican base. And at least in political terms, they are the enemy of everything we stand for and believe in.

                  The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places ~Ernest Hemingway
                  Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle ~ Anonymous

                  by SwedishJewfish on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 10:19:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Again, very well said. And sourced. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SwedishJewfish, joe wobblie

                    They are in the opposite camp from us. Why on earth would the OWS movement want to go there, because going there means compromise with pretty much the most conservative Republicans around.

                    ???

                    We've seen too much god damn compromise for far too long. The right never does it. It's time for the left to plant its flag and refuse to budge. For once.

                    Bad move.

          •  Well said. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OnlyWords, joe wobblie

            I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for OWS to degrade itself by any merger with the tea party.

            Everything out of the tea party's mouth smacks of idiocy. They have no concept of social or economic justice. They don't believe in climate change, and think it's all a hoax. They think Obama is a crazed Maoist, or worse. A goodly portion think he's the antichrist, for goddess sake!!

            I don't support Obama, either. But it's because I'm looking at him from the left and see a conservative technocrat, which we can not afford. We need a real leftist with a real social and economic justice agenda. The tea party, OTOH, looks at him from the far right and sees a wild-eyed commie.

            I can't support them. Oh, and they want to cut spending enough to crash the entire world economy.

            Sorry, but it's pure insanity to want to find common cause with the tea party, just as it's insane to try to find it with the Ron Paul Borg.

          •  There are fault lines within the tea party (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe wobblie, JayRaye

            At the very least, pointing out their internal contradictions would cause it to implode.  So reaching out to them is really a two-fer.

        •  Godwin's law versus Godwin's rule (4+ / 0-)

          Godwin's Law states that any internet thread will reference Hitler or nazis given enough time. Godwin's rule states that anyone who attempts to argue "Hitler did that" automatically loses an argument.

          Or so I was taught. Either way, I see no Godwin violations here.

          "If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people." -Tony Benn (-6.38,-6.36)

          by The Rational Hatter on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:35:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and I was in in the online conversation where... (8+ / 0-)

            ... Mike Godwin first proposed his "law."  

            He said nothing about "automatically loses an arguement."  His point was that in a passage of text of unlimited size, the probability of a given semantic construct appearing, asymptotically approaches 1.0.  He used "Nazis" as an example because it was familiar.  And that was all.  

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:15:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  This isn't that kind of war (0+ / 0-)

          and I don't think there's a "Godwin" issue here because you haven't convincingly compared Mitt to Hitler. All in all though, it's kind of a ridiculous analogy...you're not just talking about violence, you're talking World War.  

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:48:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  this type of thinking is the problem (21+ / 0-)

        The fact that Tea Partiers were originally anti-bailout and anti-Wall Street, but then got taken over by the likes of Dick Armey.  THAT is A problem.

        The fact that you believe that Tea Partiers are THE problem is itself a problem.

        You are allowing the 1% to divide and conquer the 99%. Sure Tea Partiers are incredibly misinformed, occasionally racist and support some seriously fucked up politicians, but OTOH, we've got some serious slimeballs on our side.

        The opportunity is to educate ourselves and our fellow citizens - regardless of their political affiliations - so that they understand the large amount of common ground that we share.

        In spite of the pop-culture vampire revival, we're still missing the underlying social metaphor of the original Dracula: Those exotically beguiling aristocrats are sucking our blood. - Pericles

        by citizendane on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:33:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can only say that if you are (12+ / 0-)

          part of a citizenry that is white, however. Otherwise, how can non-white people find common cause with racists?

          But all that aside, why is it problematic to think that the Tea Party is part of the problem in the first place? I don't support radical Libertarianism with or without the corporatism. I never have and never would. To me, a good Democracy is far more egalitarian in the first place.

          This is not an us-them issue though. There we part ways. To me, OWS is not an apparatus of any party. It is its own venture. And as such, it ought to avoid sliming itself with racism and pro-Libertarian sentiment alike. It's too good for that. In and of itself. And there, people simply need more education about OWS as a state of possibility rather than shoving OWS into pre-existing boxes that accept crappy ideology. We have plenty of that as is.

          •  lots of good points you make (7+ / 0-)

            Here's the thing though - just because someone is wrong about something doesn't mean you should write them off.

            It is harder with racists and anti-Semites, but they need our attention as much as less offensive groups do.

            Everyone who thinks they are superior to another group is suffering from the same structural problem.  Here are some examples:
            - Americans think they are superior to non-Americans
            - Racists think they are superior to those not of their race
            - Christians think they are superior to Muslims
            - Adults think they are superior to children
            - Athletes think they are superior to non-athletes
            - Attractive people think they are superior to those less attractive
            - Wealthy people think they are superior to non-wealthy people
            - Smart people think they are better than "dumb" people
            - etc, etc.

            In every case where one group assumes superiority over a different group, the type of error is the same. Yes, we are more offended by some content than others, but recognize the structure of the problem is the same.

            What is tragic is that while we abhor the worst of these (Racism and Antisemitism) we often are guilty of participating in less obvious forms of the same problem, thus perpetuating the structural problem across all types of "content".

            If the structure is the same across all of these forms of supposed superiority, then the solution is the same too.

            The solution is acceptance of the flawed group while we work to bring the group out of their fearful, ignorant state.

            If we are not willing to help any such afflicted group, then we fall into the same trap from which we should be attempting to rescue them.  And worse, nothing changes.

            I think that our great spiritual leaders understand this implicitly. For that reason they accept all comers while striving to help all comers to become better human beings.

            In spite of the pop-culture vampire revival, we're still missing the underlying social metaphor of the original Dracula: Those exotically beguiling aristocrats are sucking our blood. - Pericles

            by citizendane on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:16:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your comments are of far more interest to me (3+ / 0-)

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Voting for Ron Paul, are we?

              Well, I suppose our conversation is fairly moot! And makes much more sense in context now.

            •  The tea party is more than just racist and (4+ / 0-)

              anti-semitic. Most of them are also homophobic and misogynistic. They are mostly opposed to public education and supportive of the death penalty for those convicted, guilty or not. And, too many are raving nationalists who've been heard to speak in favor of taking by force from any Muslim country whatever oil they think we need to perpetuate "the American way" regardless of how many innocent women and children have to be killed. If they want to vote for my candidate, I'm willing for their votes to be counted, but if my candidate wins, I won't be celebrating with any of them. And, I wouldn't want my candidate to pander to them in any way.

              Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

              by RJDixon74135 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:18:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'll believe they sit out an electionw (0+ / 0-)

                with Obama in it when I see it.  The trouble with the diary is it takes Judson Phillips at face value, and even if not, I'd rather have president Rombey than Paul or Santorum.

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:07:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Amen to that! You speak for me. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:23:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'm gay. But I'm not going to get distracted by.. (7+ / 0-)

            ...the anti-gay rants of some members of the TP.  (And when was the last time that a minority had state constitutional amendments passed to enshrine discrimination against them into state constitutions?!)

            "Red meat" is what the burglar tosses over the fence to distract the guard dogs while he breaks in and robs the house.

            It's 100% certain that "red meat politics" are being stirred up by the .0000001% in order to keep working class people divided.  Don't fall for it.  

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:22:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  wrong, badly fucking wrong (8+ / 0-)

          they wern't "taken over" by Armey they were created by his cronies and Armey was given leadership. They were created by the 1% as a bulwerk against the 99% and that's the only function they'll ever perform. The problem is when people like you swallow their bullshit and alow their sickness into decent society and politics. btw, the KKK isn't a part of the 99% either. Some groups are beyond the pale and teabaggers are one of them.

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:01:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  so the Tea Partiers official line is that they (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kurt Sperry, James Kresnik

            were taken over by Dick Armey? And that's the bullshit I've swallowed?

            And more impressively, when Armey('s cronies) created the Tea Party movement, they did it with an anti-bailout, anti-Wall Street stance so that Armey could suck in a bunch of people who he would later convince to become pro-Wall Street?

            Man that's some fancy footwork!  Too bad Democrats aren't that smart (oh wait... Candidate Obama v President Obama, hmmmmm).

            As for your version of "decent society and politics" I personally find extrajudicial murder by drone to be rather indecent. There are many other examples of indecency (gutting of the Constitution, prosecution of whistleblowers, protection of financial and war criminals), so where is this mythical decency you're talking about?

            You seem to be overly impressed with those who appear "decent" while doing very bad things. Our government, in the service of the MIC, not the People, harms vastly more people than does the KKK (not only through outright killing but also by drawing off trillions of dollars that should be spent on education, health, peace and protection of the commons). That sure as hell doesn't excuse the KKK, but you need to pay attention to the scale of the harm done. Otherwise you are penny wise and pound foolish in the extreme.

            In spite of the pop-culture vampire revival, we're still missing the underlying social metaphor of the original Dracula: Those exotically beguiling aristocrats are sucking our blood. - Pericles

            by citizendane on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:33:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you teabaggers have some strange beliefs (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OnlyWords

              They sure as hell don't belong on a progressive site. Your defense of the KKK is not only stupid it's on par with your ignorance about the teabggers and their origins. YOur hatred of Obama and democrats only serves to expose where your sympathies lie as well as discredit anything else you spew.

              America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

              by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 05:28:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                James Kresnik

                That wasn't a defense of the KKK. If you don't see the behavior of the US during the occupation of Iraq as being in the same category of racism as the KKK's terrorizing of black communities a century ago ... may I refer you to Tommy Friedman's famous quote at the time we went in about the desirability of telling some Arabs - any Arabs really - to "suck on this"? That's what the liberals were thinking. We went in with the definite mission of killing a bunch of brown people to make a point.

                Yeah, removing Saddam was a good thing, and freeing the Kurds was a good and deserved thing as they'd faced genocide and long been our allies. But once we got there, we were quite happy to kill a bunch of Arabs, for the sake of just doing that. Kind of a "Birth of a Nation" moment, right?

                •  the war was wrong and criminal (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OnlyWords, Matt Z

                  I'm glad Obama was against it and stopped it. I'm very brown and I organized against the war from its inception but I don't belive it was done for the purpose of "killing brown people". I think it was done for oil and geo-political power by neocons who cared only for money and power.

                  But if you read the entire comment I objected to you'll see that the commenter throws in bullshit rightwing talking points and brought in the KKK as a part of his blanket condemnation of democrats.

                  America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

                  by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 09:35:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ShoshannaD, lostboyjim

          citizendane, but who are the "serious slimeballs on our side"?

          Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

          by RJDixon74135 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:59:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Start with Lieberman, who is veneal to a fault (0+ / 0-)

            then the two Nelsons who will shill for wealthy special interests at the drop of a hat. Finally add the congressmen Senators who think that SOPA and PROTECT IP are great ideas.

            Really the problem with self-serving pro-corporate corruption is pervasive, wide-spread and easily crosses party lines.

            •  It's a Matter of Degree... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe wobblie

              5 out of 60 "Democratic" Senators stopped, or degraded, some really good progressive legislation passed by the previous House; however, 40 out of 40 Repub Senators voted against all progressive/liberal/moderate liegislation passed by the previous House.

              So because 5 out of 60 were bad, that means that Democrats are as bad as Repubs? Talk about false equivalences...

              How very White of you...

              I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican Party.

              60% of White-Americans voted for the TeaBigots in 2010. Yet, some Kossacks think Obama is the problem. I guess it's easier to blame Obama than it is to blame your momma

              by OnlyWords on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:58:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's always matter of degrees, until you fall off (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JayRaye

                a cliff. Relativism, compromise and tolerance should have their limits. The across the board pro-corporate corruption is now beyond the pail and directly effecting the stability and utility of governance for the average person.

                For example, there is no utility for the average person, regardless of race, when a large number, if not an outright majority of Senate Democrats join Republicans in pressing for measures to allow for wholesale internet censorship, on the presumption of protecting profits for big corporate media.

                It is extremely unhelpful for minorities when elected Democrats, in large numbers, help Republicans rush through one-sided free-trade agreements that undercut wages across entire industries, where the ensuing labor arbitrage benefit capitalists at the ultimate expense of workers and the environment in both countries.

        •  I would say that this type of thinking (2+ / 0-)

          is the larger problem:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Also, last I recall, this was grounds for banning from this site. Or has this rule changed and this site now supports rooting for Ron Paul during an active election cycle?

          •  The rule changed, (0+ / 0-)

            the poster was talking primary, not general, and you're violating Posting Guidelines yourself by making a call-out from another diary.

            If you really think someone needs and instaban, then fell free to email the proper parties.

        •  Yes, yes, and yes. n/t (0+ / 0-)

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:19:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sounds like their leader wants Newt to win. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        orestes1963, CTPatriot, OnlyWords, Matt Z

        So, OWS is rallying behind Newt too?

        I'm confused.

        If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

        by Bush Bites on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:57:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  we only need to work together on that one issue (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kurt Sperry, zett, Evolutionary

        Fix it, then go right back to fighting each other.

        No-one's talking about some European-style right/left "grand coalition" here, much less some kumbaya moment where OWS and the teabagger "populists" realize we were both on the same side all along.

        Do you know why they call it the American Dream? Because it only happens when you're asleep.

        by Visceral on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:01:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed, but having a common enemy and (8+ / 0-)

        recognizing that is a HUGE start.

        Don't look a mouth horse in the gift, right? : )

        #OccupyWallStreet ~ I will protest when and where I damn well please. I have the constitution in my pocket. That is my permit.

        by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:28:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  strategically challenged, are we? (4+ / 0-)

        The key to making the alliance work is to get both sides to get over their "red meat" and deal with reality: that we are ALL being milked, bled, sucked dry, and reamed out by the slimy bastards on Wall Street, and Job One is to bring them to justice.  

        Success on that front will lead to more: think of what happens when fraudsters are brought to trial and all the evidence is on the table.  "Holy cow, those liberals were right!"

        Or don't you have the slightest bit of confidence that we can hold our own in debates with TP-ers about other issues?

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:08:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wouldn't worry about them finding "common cause" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Betty Pinson

        Not going to happen.  The tea party is basically a sham creation of right wing media and other groups.  The hangers on who identify with the Tea Party do not strike me as a real open minded group.  

        I see basically nothing happening.  

        •  Hey ... (0+ / 0-)

          Are we doing a good job of playing the part of "a real open minded group" here? In this discussion? Yeah, it's hard to be open minded. It would be hard for them, and it's certainly hard for us. I'm not sure we can do it. But to condemn them on the presumption they're unable to, without demonstrating that we can do it ourselves, is a bit much.

          Look, we can't divide and conquer our enemies while at the same time keeping them all as our enemies. We need to have a narrow focus on the worst of them, and all the tolerance we can muster for those we might turn from them. Perhaps if we're true communists we'll manage a revolution with re-education camps in it for, say, all those especially in the white population who hold views we find deeply wrong.

          Maybe that's really our plan. But damn it don't write down stuff here that implies that there's no other road to a progressive future than that. Because that's the surest way to get a near future where it's President Santorum putting us all in the re-education camps instead. That's the way to unite them against us.

    •  fuck that, teabaggers = oligarch police force n/t (0+ / 0-)

      America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

      by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:51:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Make it happen, bro! (3+ / 0-)

      You of all people could help build the bridge between the Tea Party and OWS.  

      Change history, Jesse, you know you can!

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:41:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  To MinistryofTruth well said. Great diary! (0+ / 0-)

      sig...You just ran into a hardcore progressive who's just another working stiff with an MBA degree & therefore a vociferous labor union supporter [smile]

      by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 12:50:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When 1/2 to 1/3 of Tea Party Nation voters say (38+ / 0-)

    they will sit out the 2012 General Election if Mitt is the GOP nominee the GOP has a HUGE problem. Time to speculate in popcorn futures.

    #OccupyWallStreet ~ I will protest when and where I damn well please. I have the constitution in my pocket. That is my permit.

    by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 11:53:30 AM PST

    •  The Pew Research Center did a study on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peregrine kate, Evolutionary

      views of different religions/beliefs etc. There is a LOT of mistrust in America regarding the LDS church.

      You can view the July 2011 study here.

      202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Bernie Sanders 01/02/2012

      by cany on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:40:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And, I should add, that isn't likely to be (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tapestry, Evolutionary

        JUST TPers.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Bernie Sanders 01/02/2012

        by cany on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:45:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  cany, do you have any idea what the mistrustful (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Agent99, Evolutionary, cany

        Amerians are afraid the LDS church would do if given the power? The worst thing I know of them doing is meddling in the California prop 8 issue. I would think tea partiers would appreciate that.

        Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

        by RJDixon74135 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:01:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They want their own brand in charge. (4+ / 0-)


          People who advocate for teaching religious doctrine in public schools are forced to stop and think when you point out that the teacher may teach the kind, loving, social justice version instead of the angry authoritarian version of God.

          I always mention to people who advocate for mixing church and state that if we had a state-sponsored religion, their little church would not be in charge of their own affairs, and they certainly wouldn't be in charge of the country.

          Americans recoil at the idea of being forced to live under someone else's religious doctrines. If we could just get all of the fundies to look in the mirror, and stop trying to force their beliefs on others as well, we'd achieve relative tranquility.

          "Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope." ~Robert F. Kennedy

          by Agent99 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:37:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  it wasn't just meddling.. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RJDixon74135, ozsea1, cany

          They poured 180,000 from the church and individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign.

          And they may have violated campaign laws...

          that would be one reason to be concerned...

        •  RJ: It's sort of a long explanation but the LDS (0+ / 0-)

          was also incredibly nasty in their organizing against the Equal Rights Amendment and the history and documentation of that is pretty dang thorough. In that case, the church Prophet came out against it at the last minute more or less and all the supporters in the church HAD to en mass scurry to change their positions given their belief tenets cannot be outside of Prophet revelation. It was a mess. A number of people ended up being excommunicated among other things. The church tends to be VERY controlling of their members, as you may or may not know. It really IS a hive organization.

          And if you know anything about the hiarchy of the LDS church, "when the Prophet speaks, the debate is over" is literally how it is because the Prophet represents God and is, basically, infallable. The church worked with the likes of Phyllis Schafley and Pat Buchannon and portions of the Roman Church on the NRA (and these and other groups on Prop 8).

          Like the Prop 8 case, where the church raised enormous amounts of money then went to court to try (among other things) to keep the donor list secret (they failed), they literally called out the troops. And that means there just isn't any saying no. Take a walk through any number of the ex-Mormon (ex-LDS) or LDS recovery sites on the web and you will begin to get an understanding.

          The other thing I think people are fearful of is the power of the church over elected leaders given the power of the Prophet. In the church, one cannot choose which prophesies to choose from. You MUST obey them all. That said, I think you see the problem people are concerned with.

          In many states (NY, Missouri, and Illinois and even Utah though majority LDS), the LDS church's early histories there were pretty harry. And by that I mean bloodshed. History has a way of tilting stories one way or another and, I would add, that is true inside the LDS church as well.

          The LDS church is really young unlike most large churches  and is also fast growing. Some religious tenets that people don't really know much about seem so incredibly odd to mainstream Christians do. Those that DO know of them just find the entire religion too odd for them. Of course most religions are viewed this way by some, and to non-believers, all religions are probably viewed this way!

          There is a concept in the church reflected as "milk before meat". The best way I can describe that is that the more difficult religious tenets (meat) are not discussed until one can accept the more basic ones (milk). For this reason, many people really do not know much about the church to any degree. Yes they know about the underwear (but probably not why)!  

          Don't take this as a sign from me that I am overall critical of the LDS church, I'm not. But theocracy scares the living daylights out of me and there is NO question that the LDS church is theocratic.
           

          202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Bernie Sanders 01/02/2012

          by cany on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 02:49:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Heavy on the butter and salt for me, thanks. I (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe wobblie, Puddytat, dzog

      Also recommend plenty of black licorice and chocolate malt-balls.  For this particular election, we are going to need a whole new snack industry.

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:41:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fine with me; they have caused enough trouble nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Puddytat, Dirtandiron

      The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

      by a2nite on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:41:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Where did they say that? (6+ / 0-)

      Oh yeah... on Judson Phillips's website.  

      Unfortunately, you assume Judson Phillips speaks for all Tea Party folks.  he doesn't.  he speaks for his own little group "Tea Party Nation".

      No one speaks for the "Tea Party" because it does not exist as a single entity.  Most people that identify themselves as belonging to or sympathizing with the Tea Party do not belong to any formal group.

      I have seen polls on conservative sites that state the same kind of thing, then a week later it is totally reversed.

      I would not take too much comfort in what this guy says.. he doesn't really speak for any sizable group.

      And, anyway.. This guy has his hopes pinned on a  has-been.  Newt is old news.  He's toast.

    •  "We've done surveys ..." (4+ / 0-)

      Not to rain on your popcorn, but has this claim that 1/2 to 1/3 will not vote for Mitt been substantiated? Could it not be an attempt to bolster the TP's legitimacy when its influence is apparently declining?

      I have a hard time imagining that most of the hard-liners won't be persuaded to "come home" to Romney, perhaps pacified by an ultracon running mate and a few more servings of red-meat rhetoric. But I truly hope you're right.

      Winning elections is great, but building movements is better.

      by Alvin K on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:16:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Empty talk (0+ / 0-)

      Just listen to how the talk about Obama.

      Republicans take care of big money, for big money takes care of them ~ Will Rogers

      by Lefty Coaster on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:02:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, but much like so many diarists (0+ / 0-)

      commenters and front pagers here who complain about Obama will vote for him readily next November, these people are going to vote for whichever clown pops out of that car with the nomination around his neck (or on his nose, if you prefer). I think the enthusiasm gap on both sides is exaggerated somewhat (in some contexts; under estimated in others).

      In any case, any enthusiasm gap created or exacerbated by Romney's lack of "correct" theological background is at least somewhat offset by the similar gap that apparently exists on the D side of the aisle.

  •  Agreed, Mitt is doomed in 2012 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, a2nite, GRLionsFan

    I fully agree that Mitt simply cannot get enough people to the polls to win the general election...

    ...and I would suggest anyone that wins the GOP nod will face the same problem....

    ...but, as a passionate progressive, this is of virtually zero consolation considering the massive favorite to win the general is an unopposed corporatist puppet of the 1% who gets worshiped by altogether too many here on Kos because he says things we like to hear.

    ...until the stubborn reluctance to primary Obama fades, the OWS movement really has no viable candidate from either party to vote for.

  •  Go to work, get a real job Mitt. (15+ / 0-)

    Try paying the bills flipping burgers.

    look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

    by FishOutofWater on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:04:05 PM PST

  •  i'd say "occupy mitt!" (9+ / 0-)

    but who wants to do that?

    My goal is to make the world safe for anarchy. - 4Freedom

    by Cedwyn on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:13:48 PM PST

  •  The Tea-Partiers are right and they are wrong. (19+ / 0-)

    They know something is wrong with the country.  That's where they are right.

    They don't understand exactly what is wrong, and are lashing out at liberals, progressives, feminists, "those other people" whoever they are.  That's where the Tea-Partiers are wrong.

    If the Tea-Party people ever catch on to the damage the 1% is doing them and their country--watch out!

    Empathy is going to change the world.

    by Mayfly on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:16:56 PM PST

    •  Too bad they rely upon FOX Snooze to tell them (11+ / 0-)

      who/what/where the problem actually is.

      Unless/until the corporate media stops making them chase chimeras (and trust me, FOX won't), the Teabaggers will continue to hate... and in this case hate those whom they perceive as the "Great Unwashed."  The meme that OWS == Hippies is alive and well.

      The Corporations ain't stuped.

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:26:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  having seen a few OWS events here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GRLionsFan

        it is hippies.  The left has never managed to get past it's image problem.  As long as they keep trotting out hippies, hipsters, and a slew of bad optics they can only blame themselves when people point out the obvious.  

        I've often had a feeling that parading around hippies and rallying to their defense is far more important to the left than actually changing anything.  And I keep being proven correct there at every chance possible.

        "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

        by overclocking on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:45:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Trotting out Hippies" lol (8+ / 0-)

          Are there big hippie communes where you live? I don't think hippies are a big group these days.

          Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

          by Dirtandiron on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:32:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Where are you seeing this? I have seen few actual (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Midwesterners, polecat, Dirtandiron

          hippies in Sacramento, Davis, Oakland, and SF Ferry Bldg.  The mix is all-American.  Every color, every gender, every age, many levels of wealth/un-wealth, many different ideologies, backgrounds, and religions.
          Occupy is as American as Apple Pie, Mom, and Baseball.

          Okay, there are the drummers.  They're, expressing themselves differently I suppose.

          Don't let the wrong-wingers fool you.  Hippies are rare.  Deadheads are many, but certainly a minor percentage of the crowd - as in all Liberal gatherings.  Democrats cannot be pictured by any specific race, ethnicity, age, gender, or sexual preference.  Republicans, however seem to tend to one specific race, one specific religion, one set of values, etc.  They are homogeneous. Put them in a blender and pour them out in identical molds, and they haven't changed.

          There are more of us than than there are of them.

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 06:42:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've spoken with a few Tea Party - adherents, and (12+ / 0-)

        they are dropping Fox News like a hot plate of dog shit.  Maybe not all are like the ones I have spoken to, but they were pointing out quite a lot of Fox News badness.

        It's a good sign.

        #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

        by Evolutionary on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:48:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The Tea Baggers allowed themselves (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mayfly, NoMoreLies

      to be bought out by the 1%.  And they sold themselves cheaply, too.  They allowed the Dick Armey crowd to change their message and position them to attack the policies that would have helped them (like single payer health care) and benefit the 1%.

      Support like that we don't need.  

      There already is class warfare in America. Unfortunately, the rich are winning.

      by Puddytat on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:18:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is always a possibility of enlightenment. (0+ / 0-)

        For some Tea Partiers the light will come on.  We must help all we can with friendly persuasion, without unkindness.

        Empathy is going to change the world.

        by Mayfly on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:40:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think the Tea Party rank & file did not sell out (0+ / 0-)

        but instead were fooled by the Dick Armey crowd.  

        I think among the Tea Party people there is a tendency to trust when certain buzz words are used.   But maybe that is true of all groups.

        Empathy is going to change the world.

        by Mayfly on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:58:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  LOL. (0+ / 0-)

          Yes they're pure as snow with hearts of gold.

          If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

          by Bush Bites on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 05:06:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The TPers and OWSers have a common desire (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, Mayfly, Kurt Sperry, bula

    for change - it needn't be the same change of course, but change nonetheless. Strange bedfellows indeed.

    Moreover, the Dem response to OWS has been somewhat ambiguous, restrained to say the least when it comes to the powers-that-be in the DP.

    Not surprising that a substantial proportion of OWSers would rather identify themselves wih Ron Paul than President Obama.

    Tough pill to swallow for Dems.

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:27:37 PM PST

    •  I don't think that's true. I've seen a few (6+ / 0-)

      Paulistas at the GA's, but not very many, and most Occupy folks I have spoken to, while tolerating the Paulistas, don't really like them very much.  They seem to be pretty cognizant of Ron Paul's extreme views.

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:51:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right. Paulistas is "everyman for himself." Occupy (5+ / 0-)

        is "We are all in this together."

        Empathy is going to change the world.

        by Mayfly on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:42:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Around here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        there are quite a few Paulistas or semi-Paulistas involved. It's been an interesting experience working with them, with some pretty intense conflicts at time.

        Michael Weissman UID 197542

        by docmidwest on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:29:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And despite the conflicts, we have more common (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zett, docmidwest, bula

          ground with them than we might think.  The ones I know are very, very slowly realizing that if they don't latch on to OWS, they will achieve nothing.  First they tried to co-opt Occupy, but I think they are finding the opposite is taking them by surprise.  The more interaction we have, the more they learn.

          Once you get past 'the bait' (end the wars, legalize the weed) - and get down to brass tacks, many don't realize what they have been fighting for.  They always demand proof, and I keep it on hand just for that purpose.
          I was initially attracted to them for the same reasons, but then they stupidly gave me the rest of the agenda.
          When Paulistas are confronted with hard facts, it is very difficult for them to return to the ignorance they were under previously.  We are, by existing, forcing them to rethink their priorities.  I invite them to jump on the OWS bandwagon, every chance I get.  I let them know that all ideas can be presented at the GA, and the popularity level of those ideas is given immediately.  No waiting.

          Occupy is large enough now that they realize the Tea Party isn't going to help their cause.  Even Tea Partiers are giving ground where they weren't before.

          OWS has definitely changed the conversation.

          #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

          by Evolutionary on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:24:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The identification with Ron Paul is simple (0+ / 0-)

      anti-war, pro-pot...everything else is basically beside the point. Sure, Ron Paul impresses a few starry-eyed Republicans as the true prophet of "limited government," but the serious folks know it's a crock. Basically Ron Paul is the crazy guy who advocates things that are utterly unacceptable to the powers that be.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:05:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This Christmas my cousin's very Republican husband (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mayfly

    said that he felt no on currently running will be the Republican candidate for President. [he's an optomist]

    His hope: someone the bankers fear, has executive experience, looks professional but not Scott Brown handsome, and capable of making speeches that people really want to hear. Or - as he put it - a guy that is what Herman Cain pretended to be but with a penius under control.

    One war ended. Bring those still in Afghanistan home NOW. The Afghans do not want us there, either.

    by llbear on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:31:40 PM PST

    •  Interesting. As Herman Cain never pretended to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      llbear

      know anything about government, it appears that a truly honest, for the people, amateur would be a god-send for many Republicans. But I think such a person would be nullified or stomped rather quickly by the Repub establishment.

      Empathy is going to change the world.

      by Mayfly on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:03:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Herman Cain seems to be attempting a comeback (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      llbear

      of some sort. He's been on CNN two nights in a row. I didn't hear what he had to say tonight, but last night he claimed to be about to announce a "big movement" he's going to lead. Maybe he's trying to follow in Sarah Palin's footsteps to the bank. I hope so since she seems to have all but disappeared.

      Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

      by RJDixon74135 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:33:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's waiting for Prince Charming (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      llbear

      to ride up on his white horse and declare himself a candidate for the Republican nomination...that guy's not just an optimist, he's living in a political fantasy world.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:08:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've been priming that pump in mid-Northern Ohio (11+ / 0-)

    for a couple of years now.

    From a comment on 30 Oct 2011:

    I've invited myself to the local Tea Party meetings here in north central Ohio, and I won their respect.  I show up with my tablet computer and they use me as their "facts guy".  They usually don't like what they hear, but they want to know the real truth at least . . .

    And from another comment downthread from the last:

    Most of them got a huge case of buyer's remorse after the election of Nov 2010.

    This collusion represents an idea who's time has come.

    Teddy had the Square Deal. FDR had the New Deal. Obama's got the BFD.

    by thenekkidtruth on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:35:01 PM PST

  •  good to get Mittens, will still have problems (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    with the white supremacists aka the TBAGS.

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:40:43 PM PST

  •  I wouldn't put too much stock (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wyvern, irmaly, KenBee

    in anything the Tea Party says. Just like all the people here who say they won't vote for Obama, but you know are going to hold their noses and do it anyway. I expect the same from the Tea Party if Romney gets the nod.

    I'm no philosopher, I am no poet, I'm just trying to help you out - Gomez (from the song Hamoa Beach)

    by jhecht on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:48:47 PM PST

  •  An American Spring? (4+ / 0-)

    I just wonder if Fox News completely bleached their brains to the truth.  But if we really could find some common ground with them that would be so awesome.  

  •  Expect Republicans to vote for the Republican. (7+ / 0-)

    They dislike Mittens, but they HATE Obama even more.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 12:58:10 PM PST

  •  I do not get or support this idea. (5+ / 0-)

    The Tea Party was born in racism. it had nothing to do with anything else at all, ever.

    I do not et why anyone is doing this. I beg to be educated why I'm wrong.

    •  I don't know if it was born in racism (8+ / 0-)

      but I will admit that my direct experience with the Tea Party has been largely confined to anti-Latino sentiment; they show up at every pro-immigration rally.

      And that is what I know of the Tea Party firsthand. Racism. Bigotry. And intolerance. I am aware that they have other ideological views. But I am not able to tolerate these, first and foremost, to concern myself with their other points of view. I've had one too many pointing their finger in my face shouting horrible things at me at this juncture. It strikes me as a fair shake of privilege to even consider an alliance with them as positive, since it would not be positive for non-hetero-normative, non-white people (which includes a huge variety of people whom they loathe). To me, that's untenable.

      •  People here think the Teabaggers are anti-bank... (5+ / 0-)

        ....but they're really anti-people-who-can't-pay-their-mortgage.

        That's how they got started on Santelli's show! Calling people defaulting on their mortgages freeloaders and bums.

        How the liberals turned that into an anti-banking position, I'll never know.

        If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

        by Bush Bites on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:13:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This can't be quite right. (0+ / 0-)

      The tea-partier with whom I've had the most extended argument is black. He started the discussion by saying "I'm very wealthy and I intend to keep it all." There probably is a lot of racism among the teahadis but there are also a variety of other strains.

      Michael Weissman UID 197542

      by docmidwest on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:34:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think.. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    carver, irmaly, adrianrf, Mayfly, zett, Matt Z

    ..you are not coming to terms with how played out & irrelevant the Tea Party is currently.

    Since the Koch bros & Fixed News abandoned the Tea Party, their only viable presence currently is the House of Representatives. (That, & a handful of governorships that have all been monumental disasters).

    And the House teabaggers will jump behind Romney as soon as the House teabaggers' campaign donors & corporate owners tell them to.

    That said, I don't think the teabaggers are the only sector of the Republican party that hates Romney...Wall Street notwithstanding, they all hate him.

    But Wall Street is the entity that owns Mitt Romeny & Wall Street is the entity that will purchase Romney his GOP nomination.

    When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

    by wyvern on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:01:01 PM PST

  •  Who is the Tea Party? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mayfly

    Are you referring to the wealthy, far right funders that started the party? As far as individuals in the party, small as it is, there may be common ground on a couple of issues, but it would be next to impossible for these individuals to admit this to themselves. More importantly, an alliance with Americans that might be open to the movement is much needed.

    •  You may be thinking of the "Tea Party Express" (0+ / 0-)

      or other organized groups with corporate funding...there are also people who will say they support the Tea Party with not much idea of what it means, other than that they are angry at the government in a kind of uncomprehending way. The size of the "Tea Party" varies wildly depending on how one defines it.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:11:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A little off topic (0+ / 0-)

    but be sure to turn on the Youtube snowflakes for an extra-festive view of Mitten's mic-check.  

    Kinda makes you feel all cozy inside :).

  •  I wonder if the media will cover (6+ / 0-)

    a joint Occupy - Tea Party event if one could be arranged?

    Say on the steps of Goldman Sachs on the day of their next quarterly earnings release?

    The trouble will be getting the Kochs to pay for the buses required to get the Tea Brained to show up.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:23:38 PM PST

  •  Any Thoughts Regards Eric Hoffer Diary Jesse? (4+ / 0-)

    ...the lack of a common mythology has never stopped one movement from poaching members from another, and the Tea Party fanatics are disllusioned with their groups' shift to the status quo, so there are bound to be defectors. But the theme I see on OathKeepers is that they just can't make the OWS people understand that the country is actually controlled by George Soros, and that seems to be a conflict...

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:30:06 PM PST

  •  I was hoping the Tea Party + OWS alliance (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites

    was in fact something concrete.  There are overlapping interests (as well as diametrically opposed ones), but I thought for quite a while some limited alliance with a progressive movement made sense.  A few weeks ago you spoke about it as well and I was encouraged.  Going after the same guy in an uncoordinated attack is no alliance.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:42:51 PM PST

    •  They both hate the same person! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida

      How much more do you need to have in common?

      (snark)

      If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

      by Bush Bites on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:11:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's pretty much it (0+ / 0-)

        although actually what they both hate is "the government" though neither understands it very well or has made much of an effort to work within the established parties (many TP and OWS people have never participated much in politics before, some haven't voted or haven't voted in a long time).

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:25:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  So will OWS and the Tea Party rally (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lefty Coaster

    around the President?

    I didn't think so.

    The problem as I see it is neither the Tea Party or OWS really have a choice that supports their cause.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:49:37 PM PST

    •  Correct. Neither the Democratic nominee (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kurt Sperry, zett, Freedomfreak

      nor the Republican nominee will represent any interests other than: a) the 1% and b) themselves (which is directly impacted by how vigorously they engage in (a)).

      Any OWS member who intends to cast a vote for either legacy party candidate ought to step back and reconsider what he really believes. A vote for either is a vote for the 1% candidate. Period.

  •  teabaggers WILL go for Romney (4+ / 0-)

    the main body of teabaggers are there to form the gestapo for the oligarch. That's why they were created by the 1%. In the end they'll salute and vote as told.

    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

    by cacamp on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:53:46 PM PST

  •  So, OWS supports Newt? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aquarius40

    Geeze.

    If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, then Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

    by Bush Bites on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:55:46 PM PST

  •  Who do you think they hate more Obama or Romney? (4+ / 0-)

    Their hate for Obama is what what many of these Tea Party members are obsessed with.

    The Tea Party hate Romney for Romneycare, being open to climate science, and being pro-choice, not for being a spokes-model for the 1%.

    This in no way makes a common cause with OWS's goals.

    An OWS - Tea Party alliance is a far-fetched fantasy IMHO.  

    Republicans take care of big money, for big money takes care of them ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 01:59:20 PM PST

  •  Everyone should begin a letter writing campaign to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mayfly, geonerd

    their local newspapers in the Op-Ed section pushing for the alliance of the two.  We need to reach out to explain our common goals and point out the obvious problems that affect both groups.  It's possibly time to see if an olive branch could, and would work here.  I know that the local Tea Bag groups won’t do this, so we must take the initiative as everybody reads the local paper.  The divide and conquer strategy of Wall Street has been effective up till now, but if there is a crack in the ice, and both goups can begin to accept the differences of both groups for now but fight hard for the obvious similarities, then the crap may just really hit the fan in 2012.

    And wouldn't that make for a "Happy New Year"??

    Works for me:  Write.  Write.  Right?

    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution, inevitable." - President John F. Kennedy (1917 - 1963)

    by LamontCranston on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:03:19 PM PST

    •  No. (0+ / 0-)

      Ideology matters. In politics, you have to be for something...you can't solve the great problems of the day by just being against. Once you get past what the TP and OWS are against (things as they are...most of us are unhappy with that one way or another), there's no meaningful common ground.

      The TP is fundamentally opposed to socialism. It is my understanding the OWS for the most part supports socialist ideals, if not existing Social-Democratic parties. This is a fundamental divide.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:42:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe it is me, but an alliance requires an (6+ / 0-)

    agreement between parties and the basis of an agreement and cooperation. There is no basis for an alliance or a front here. Being anti-Romney from 2 different sides does not an alliance make ... that means they both oppose Romney but for rather different reasons. When I read your title, I had a moment of sheer nausea ... that the Occupy movement had been taken over by right-wing racists and fundies. Glad that I misunderstood; I think that you need to understand what an alliance is ... it is a conscious decision to cooperate, not a coincidence of position.

    "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

    by NY brit expat on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:18:43 PM PST

    •  "A coincidence of postion" is sometimes referrered (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NY brit expat

      to as "Common Ground"

      Maybe we should capitalize on that?

      •  Capitalize on it to do what? Oppose Romney? (5+ / 0-)

        We would do that anyhow ... we will not move those supporting the tea-party over to the left on the question of Mittens ... they do not oppose him because he represents the 1%, they oppose him for any number of reasons but primarily because they do not trust him to be far enough to the right and to support fundie causes and beliefs. The tea party is a tool of the most right-wing 1%ers; it is a proto-fascist organisation. They think he is running to the right and will move to the centre, they think that he is not really on their side. He may not really be on their side, but he is most certainly not on our side ... he is the candidate of the republican 1%. That is not really common ground ... it is a mutual enemy.

        I have a basic position of not crawling into bed with fascists and racists, it is an essential defining position. I am praying that this holds for those in the Occupy movement. We need to build a movement that is inclusive, not a movement that finds common agreement with the hard right in the US.

        "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

        by NY brit expat on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:51:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They're not all fascists and racists... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lepanto, BobBlueMass, Kurt Sperry

          any more than we're all hippies and communists.

          For better or worse, they're our fellow Americans and we have to find a way to bring them to our side.

          •  there are other americans that we can bring (4+ / 0-)

            to our sides rather easier w/o compromising each and every principle that we hold dear. When people are so completely convinced of a right-wing position as these people are, they cannot be easily brought over to a sensible position; we cannot waste time trying to reach people this far to the right. While the struggle to build a movement is a long-term one, there are those that have either through stupidity, ignorance or a combination of the two to choose to side with the enemies of humanity. If by getting information out and building a true grass-roots movement some of these people switch sides, great. But wasting time and precious resources in the hopes of getting them to shift leftwards rather than build something in the realm of possibility simply because they are fellow americans is not something I can be bothered to do. Understand that fascists had a large  base in the working class, there have always been those that sided with the right and we will never recruit them. We will not have unanimity, what we need is an inclusive movement, not something meant to win over the hard-right in the US.

            If each and everyone of them is not a fascist or a racist, the large majority are, there is no basis for an alliance with these people.

            "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

            by NY brit expat on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:53:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (6+ / 0-)

              Even without the racist tendencies, the TP is predominantly white, upper middle class, middle aged, and haven't suffered all that much in the recession. There are numerous demographic studies that back this up. This idea of them being some populist uprising of angry but misguided working class stiffs is an ILLUSION, and I'm stunned that so many here seem to have fallen for it.

              You want to make alliances? Make them with Occupy the Hood. Make them with the Latino community, the elderly, the poor and the disenfranchised- the people who literally ARE losing everything, who know the game is rigged and want to fix it. Do you think the Tea Party gives a crap about social justice, or preserving the social safety net, or the environment, or student debt, or people getting foreclosed on and thrown out in the streets? You think they are going to camp out in front of someones foreclosed home with us to fight their eviction? No, they will be like the idiot in the video screaming "get a job!" I know them, I've met them, I've seen them in action- unlike some people here, apparently.

              So no, it's not about them being racists, and frankly it is not that they are uneducated. In fact, most of them are well educated (a high percentage of them are college grads) and they are informed in their own ways...they just have a completely different worldview. A worldview that is lightyears away from mine, and a vision for this country that would be my worst nightmare.

              Yeah, we might have a mutual dislike for Mitt Romney in common- but their dislike of him is based on the fact that they consider Mittens a LIBERAL.

              Other than that, there is no common ground. None. And I want nothing to do with them.

              The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places ~Ernest Hemingway
              Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle ~ Anonymous

              by SwedishJewfish on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 06:09:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is not rocket science. It can't work. (4+ / 0-)

                The tea party started basically after Rick Santelli's rant on CNBC. On the floor of the stock exchange. He ranted about the terrible oppression those day traders might face if they had their marginal income tax rates raised by three percent, and he went nuts over even the possibility that Obama might help troubled mortgage holders.

                That's what set the tea party in motion, and then it got all of that Koch brother money, went nuts again over HCR, and stormed town halls all across the country. They behaved like absolute thugs, and it was all because they thought poor people and working people might get a bit of help with their mortgages and healthcare, and taxes might go up a fraction on the very wealthy.

                We can't make common cause with these idiots. They're all in for the 1% one way or another. The only reason they might be angry at the 1% is because they aren't there yet.

                Dumb idea.

                •  But the energy was anger over the crash + bailouts (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie, JayRaye

                  That anger still exists, although it's been heavily diluted, misdirected, suppressed, etc.  It might not be a complete waste of time to extend a hand to the tea party on very precise grounds.  It might remind people of their anger, and make a mockery of what the tea party has become- and give them another choice.  Some will take it.

                  •  Yes, this is exactly my point. Give them a . (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joe wobblie

                    And the idea that they are all upper middle class is simply wrong. All of the people close to me who are Teabaggers are poor and white.

                    If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

                    by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:06:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No one is suggesting that we compromise our (0+ / 0-)

              principles. I know several Teabaggers personally and they are not facists. Racism can be confronted, and people can change thru struggling together. As a shop steward, I could not throw away my Republican fellow workers, had to work with all of them. This is the reality of working class struggle. When we give up on the reactionaries within our class, we lose them permanently.

              If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

              by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:03:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know several tea-baggers and they are (2+ / 0-)

                fascists. Racism can be confronted and must be confronted always; however there are those that cling to racism because in their minds they think it is true and also they benefit from it.

                I am not asking you to throw these people out of anything; I am telling you that we will not be able to recruit them to a progressive position. I am not telling you not to speak to them. What I am telling you is that there have always been those whose class allegiance is not with their class but with their oppressors, there are those who think that fascism offers better solutions that the ones offered by the left ... these are and will be the foot soldiers of fascism (the leaders do not get their hands dirty). These are the brown shirts, these are the people that no matter how nice you are to them will beat the crap out of you as their enemy. Have you met fascists? I have and trust me we will never turn them. I am not talking about those that may be fooled, I am talking about hard-core and many of these people in the tea party are those people.

                "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                by NY brit expat on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:16:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  If they're your friends and neighbors (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JayRaye

                by all means engage them and discuss issues with them if you can do it without anyone getting angry at each other...that's not the same thing as making common cause with the movement. A lot of people who say they support the Tea Party don't really understand what it means.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 09:10:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right, I mean common cause on certain issues. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie

                  Esp union issues. As shop steward, I had to work with ALL of my fellow workers, even the radical right wing Christians, who were about half of our small bargaining unit. Nevertheless, we were able to unite and win when we had our big safety fight. We only had each other, the local union leaders did not support us. Calling my fellow workers names based on some of the nonsense they preached would never have worked to unite us.

                  P.S. I can engage them for the most part w/o anger. And then I leave and bang my head as hard I can against the nearest wall.

                  If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

                  by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 09:30:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  David, why not start with convincing them a black (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alice in Florida

            president who pushed through "Obamacare" is whom they should support? Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm almost 65 and don't expect to live long enough to see that.

            Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

            by RJDixon74135 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:57:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not the point...we cannot allow ourselves (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JayRaye

              to descend into the same blind hatred that many of them engage in.  If we do we're no better than they are.

            •  Actually, that is exactly what I have been doing (0+ / 0-)

              with the Teabagger in my own family. I point out to her that she has medical because of the government, so why shouldn't her sons also have it because of the government, since they don't get medical thru their jobs. Believe me, talking to my own Teabagger relative makes me want to beat my head against the wall until I fall unconscious. But we cannot give up on our own.

              If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

              by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:11:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Why not ally with Democrats, then? (0+ / 0-)

            They're fellow Americans, too, you know. And there are more of them, and they don't all hate you.

            "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

            by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:44:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Agree completely (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NY brit expat, Aquarius40, gramofsam1

          Some very good things can come from short term/single issue political alliances - net neutrality being one such issue - but not with racists - that never ends well.

        •  Please, calling them all facist and racists is a (0+ / 0-)

          bit extreme. They are mostly misguided angry working people. Calling them names will not win any of them over.

          If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

          by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 05:57:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am not using these terms gratuitously (0+ / 0-)

            I never use these terms gratuitously; listen to what they are saying, listen to what they are advocating. Tell me how they differ from fascist organisations and parties. Denying what they are will leave you wondering what is going one when these people violently attack a leftist or progressive meeting as you cannot understand exactly where they are coming from and what they believe. The denial of reality will not help us fight for a better future or build a struggle of opposition; there are enemies and they are not only the rich, there are those that view themselves as allies of the rich, whose allegiance is protecting the interests of the upper classes. These are whom these people are ... they are not potential allies. There are those that do not understand truly what they are arguing and these can be spoken to and possibly shifted. But those are not the majority in this tea party movement who have clearly and deliberately chosen fascism and racism as political ideologies.

            "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

            by NY brit expat on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:22:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ironically, you remind me a bit of the Teabaggers (0+ / 0-)

              throwing around epithets at top volume and in hysterical fashion. Do you even know any Teabaggers?

              If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

              by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:47:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  P.S. Go to Protest Music Group (0+ / 0-)

                And you will see Pete Seeger making common cause with Arlo Guthrie, who tho sadly, a Teabagger, is hardly a fascist.

                If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

                by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:54:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am sorry about Arlo and I think his father (0+ / 0-)

                  would have been horrified. If Arlo does not know what he is supporting that is due to his ignorance and not my problem. Bless Pete Seeger, he knew his father and probably is trying to help him on a personal level. There is no basis of common cause with these people; nor did I tell you not to deal with them individually, I do not think that a movement should try to win them over, we have far better things to do and better targets to try and win over.

                  "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                  by NY brit expat on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 10:37:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  actually I know several of them and unfortunately (0+ / 0-)

                they are family members. I am not hysterical and your response to me is one that is a personal attack rather than a discussion which I offered you. Don't descend to this level, we can talk like people that respect each other but disagree on tactics and strategy.

                "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                by NY brit expat on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 10:35:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, I see, you can make the most vile attacks (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe wobblie

                  against what you call "these people" but then when someone criticizes you, you become the victim of a "personal attack." Now, who does that remind me of...?

                  If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

                  by JayRaye on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:51:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you described me as hysterical and now you are (0+ / 0-)

                    comparing me to Sarah Palin ... lovely ... why rush to the defense of fascists and racists but attack a member of the left that thinks trying to recruit them is a waste of time. That is a tactical difference, I describe these people on the basis of their beliefs and actions and yet you are in complete denial of the fact that some of them have chosen to ally with the most repulsive and backward members of the bourgeoisie; you think that they are deluded ... I know that they are deluded, but that does not make them allies.

                    "Hegel noticed somewhere that all great world history facts and people so to speak twice occur. He forgot to add: the one time as tragedy, the other time as farce" Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte .

                    by NY brit expat on Thu Jan 05, 2012 at 05:49:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yea, I can just inagine your strategy and tactics (0+ / 0-)

                      used on the shop floor in a union organizing campaign. First, identify all your Republican, Tea Party, and Ron Paul supporting fellow workers. Then bring out 2 sledgehammers, one called "facists" the other called "racist" and beat them over the head good and hard for awhile. Let them know that you don't want them in your nice pure union. That should work out great to bring them on board. The facts are that I was shop steward in a bargaining unit with more than half of our members from a very right wing Bible College. What happens over many  years of struggle together is that people change. I never hid from any of my co-workers that I was a Socialist. One of the most radical right wingers came to me when he left, specifically to say good bye and that he had learned to respect me, even tho he disagreed with my politics. I am neither deluded, nor in denial. I know from experience not to give up on my fellow workers.

                      If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

                      by JayRaye on Thu Jan 05, 2012 at 07:43:54 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

  •  There were times, early on, when I felt that the (5+ / 0-)

    Tea Party members where being manipulated and lied to by their leaders.  They were angry and confused and directed that anger and confusion to the target dictated by Glenn Beck, etal.  But the real source of their anger is the same as the source of the OWS anger:  the disparity of wealth that was enhanced by the bank bailouts.

    The problem is that it would require the TPers to accept a different version of reality in order to align with their natural allies in the OWS movement.  Just don't see that happening.

    That doesn't mean we won't benefit from their refusal to support Romney, however.  But I don't see any joint demonstrations going on anywhere soon.

    "I cannot live without books" -- Thomas Jefferson, 1815

    by Susan Grigsby on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 02:46:33 PM PST

  •  Re Friedman, he said the next six weeks (0+ / 0-)

    will be very very important......or was it the next three months.... Takes a lot of smarts to figure that out.

    When Mitt gets the treatment he gave Gingrinch, he may fare the same. As my dad used to say, "What goes around comes around," Mitt!

    Yay! Because every day I find Mitt more sickening, more fake, more disgusting. If he were president by some fluke, America would be in a world of trouble. He's reprehensible for the lies he tells about President Obama!

    "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

    by Gorette on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:03:10 PM PST

  •  SS Mittens (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    isabelle hayes

    "Well, it is happening, and it is going to turn into the perfect storm, and that perfect storm is headed straight for a Wall Street Millionaires' yacht, The S.S. Mittens."

    Wonderfully scribed sentence!

  •  The Teabaggers I know (3+ / 0-)

    previously (when they were hardcore Bushies btw) vowed not to support McCain in 2008.  Guess who they wound up pulling the lever for in the end.  I expect it will go much the same way this time for most of them, but it's good to know they are making strong anti-Romney noises and grumbling.

  •  I think there must be a better word (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    than alliance.  Maybe gauntlet, coming at him from both sides.  Maybe overlapping light filters that block different wave lengths shining off of the Romney "light",  maybe adjoining sink holes pulling large masses of his support under.  There just has to be a better way to express this than alliance.

  •  Establishment status quo and MSM will fight it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rasfrome, isabelle hayes

    The MSM has been a major factor in the economic decline of the USA and the 99% at the benefit of the 1%.  

    They are experts at keeping us divided and arguing while the 1% connive and collude.   The media consolidation has a major factor.   The  result in the decline of our economy for the benefit of the bankers and 1% began when the media was consolidated and gobbled up so they go present a common agenda.  

    They want an America run by the 1% that will send to us wars on their behalf.   They want a tax policy where the 1% pay less percentage wise than the 99%.  They want the 1% to have enough pocket change left over after minimal taxes to buy off Congress.  

    The agenda and the players and commonality between them are perfectly clear and it first began when Jimmy Carter was pushed out of office.   The final push began in earnest with the PNAC wet dream on 9-11.  

    Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

    by dailykozzer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:38:03 PM PST

  •  Both the TP and OWS are protest movements (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rasfrome, Kurt Sperry, Matt Z

    Perhaps instead of labelling them as "racists, etc" and "hippies, etc", respectively, and, accordingly, dismissing them out of hand without further ado, we ought to attempt to discern what the fundamental gripes are.

    Perhaps the fundamental gripe, and the common ground of these two in so many ways disparate protest movements, is that the banksters are in control and largely determine both American internal politics and foreign policy.

    Now, where's the Dem response to this fundamental gripe?
    Or, for that matter, where's the GOP response to this fundamental gripe?

    The responses seem to be identical: give the banksters bailouts from working- and middle-class Americans' tax money and then let them do what they want and continue to ripp off the country as always.

    What seems to be happening (in my humble opinion) is a big split in American political life:

    On the one hand the protest movements (both of the extreme right and of the left) and on the other the two centrist parties (of the right and of the left).

    That's why the TP can't identify with Romney (the most likely GOP nominee) and OWS can't identify with Obama (who's likely to win in 2012).

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:43:31 PM PST

  •  Or ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    instead of downsizing workers, "supersizing layoffs."

    Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

    by dadadata on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 03:45:55 PM PST

  •  can someone splain why this is agreeable but not (0+ / 0-)

    when jane said it (~3 yrs ago)?

    methinks because she was talking w grover?  is that the big difference?

    regardless i tip and rec both.  anyone who can joins votes even temporarily to drain the wall st & DC swamp should get moved to head of parade. & DC dems are not to be trusted.

    i need a rails developer to help me with a cool map project

    by rasfrome on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:02:46 PM PST

  •  ummm, i'm not seeing the actual 'alliance' part (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster

    so the Tea Party isn't going to vote for Mitt.  the article doesn't say 'why'.  and i'm under the impression the tea party in general doesn't view OWS favorably.

    life: that awkward moment between birth and death

    by bnasley on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:16:05 PM PST

  •  I love it when he tries to act like (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Thousandwatts

    a person! Zero charisma. And I thought Kerry was wooden.

    It's The SCOTUS, Stupid!

    by kitebro on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:30:00 PM PST

  •  No one wants Mitt Romney to be prez (0+ / 0-)

    except Mitt (and I have my doubts about him sometimes).  I don't get the excitement.  Now, if you'd told me that OWS and the TP were planning an action together, even if it was just, say, toilet-papering Goldman-Sachs, I'd have been excited.

    Love you anyway, Jesse.  Keep on keeping on.

  •  There Is Common Cause (0+ / 0-)

    Look at the common issues that the Paulista wing of the TP and real progressives share enumerated in Greenwald's recent column.  It's not just minor stuff either but some of the most central policy issues of our time:  issues of foreign policy by constant war, of the continuation of the Bush/Cheney security state with its callous disregard for citizen's rights and Nixon's racist war on drugs.

    Major critical issues where interests overlap.

    Advisors for President-Elect Barack Obama feared the new administration would face a coup if it prosecuted Bush-era war crimes, according to a new report out this morning.

    by Kurt Sperry on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 04:46:28 PM PST

  •  Mitt Romney won that mic check nt (0+ / 0-)

    Frank Luntz: "Occupy is having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism.”

    by DeanObama on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 05:11:35 PM PST

  •  Among which issues will OWS and the Tea Party (0+ / 0-)

    coalesce? I have a few ideas. I just wanted to hear what others had to say.

  •  Fuck the teabaggers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    they can rot in hell.

    Fat, stupid and Republican is no way to go through life, son.

    by GOPGO2H3LL on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 07:42:34 PM PST

  •  I love you MOT (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, mahakali overdrive

    and I embrace and honor all that you do.

    As a proud card carrying liberal who lives in Texas, I simply cannot do the tea party thing.

    Their political agenda is far too extreme and fascistic.

  •  It's a terrible idea. Actually, it's insane. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, joe wobblie

    the tea party is diametrically opposed to everything the OWS movement stands for. Tea partiers have a problem with Mitt because he doesn't go far enough in their quest to roll back the New Deal and the social safety net in general. He's too centrist for them. They couldn't care less about his corporate ties. They love corporations and the 1%. They love business and wealth and the 1%.

    Again, it's madness to want to join forces with a group that thinks unions and minorities and public sector workers cause all of our troubles. It's madness to want to join forces with a group that wants to cut trillions in spending, which would send us into another Great Depression. Every survey of the tea party points to their hard-right worldview, their religious-right orientation, their social conservatism. They also hate socialism, and the OWS movement was started by socialists, left-anarchists and leftists, primarily.

    But, the real reason why this is madness? Joining forces with them means the OWS movement will have to compromise. That means watering down their demands, and moving closer to the center. And isn't that the main reason why we're in this mess right now? The Dems and their capitulation to the right?

    And you want more of the same?

    •  Since when is OWS about saving govt programs? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe wobblie

      As you said yourself, OWS was started in no small part by Anarchists.  It was an anti-Wall Street action.  In fact the original idea was to swarm the financial district in such large numbers that it would be physically unable to function.  Not to save social security or medicare or Keynesianism (imagine, anti-capitalists fighting for Keynesianism!).

      •  They're against inequality, right? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe wobblie, mahakali overdrive

        and under our present system, those government programs are about the only mitigating factor.

        Until we can overturn capitalism itself, and rid America of its duopoly, this is the only game in town.

        So, how on earth does it help the nation in the slightest to make common cause with the right-most flank of the GOP? How on earth does it make any sense to try to find common cause with the worst of the GOP?

        Again, it's utterly insane.

        •  I'll agree with that, provisionally (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe wobblie

          If things like food stamps, medicare, and social security were just tossed out tomorrow, it would be... well there aren't words to describe it.  But although they need to exist for now, we also want to develop alternatives that don't involve the government and eliminate the need for the existence entirely.

        •  Hurrah, Diomedes! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis

          The alternatives are good American high paying Union JOBS and Single payer Health care!

          Our Military is The Heart and Conscience of America.

          by joe wobblie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:54:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's a terrible idea. Actually, it's insane. (3+ / 0-)

    the tea party is diametrically opposed to everything the OWS movement stands for. Tea partiers have a problem with Mitt because he doesn't go far enough in their quest to roll back the New Deal and the social safety net in general. He's too centrist for them. They couldn't care less about his corporate ties. They love corporations and the 1%. They love business and wealth and the 1%.

    Again, it's madness to want to join forces with a group that thinks unions and minorities and public sector workers cause all of our troubles. It's madness to want to join forces with a group that wants to cut trillions in spending, which would send us into another Great Depression. Every survey of the tea party points to their hard-right worldview, their religious-right orientation, their social conservatism. They also hate socialism, and the OWS movement was started by socialists, left-anarchists and leftists, primarily.

    But, the real reason why this is madness? Joining forces with them means the OWS movement will have to compromise. That means watering down their demands, and moving closer to the center. And isn't that the main reason why we're in this mess right now? The Dems and their capitulation to the right?

    And you want more of the same?

  •  I'm pretty sure the tea party doesn't exist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie

    The second weekend of the Madison protests, they pulled out all the stops to bus in maybe 600 people.  Meanwhile we had 50,000 without really trying.  So I'm not sure why we should give a fuck about them, expect maybe to get indie cred.  Even then the goal doesn't need to be to actually work with the teabaggers- just to be able to project the image of being willing to if they're reasonable (while attaching conditions that they'll find unacceptable in ways that make no sense to most people, such as anything that challenges their veiled racism- for example challenging the blatantly unfair foreclosure of a veteran who's made all of his payments... oh and he' black.  and lives in 'that part' of town.  the reactions on their faces alone would be worth it.).

  •  RJ: Not being one of them, I don't know what (0+ / 0-)

    they believe he would do. I DO know there remains long concern over theocracy in the church (which, I too, don't care for).

    My take just from conversations is the same problem LDS has always had: They are very different. It is really hard for evangelical Christians--in fact mainline Christians--to understand the LDS church and there is, imho, some good reason and not good reason for that.

    I know people are VERY sensitive about the polygamy issue which pretty much attacks Smith and his integrity from the get-go of that argument.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Bernie Sanders 01/02/2012

    by cany on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 02:22:19 AM PST

  •  well, I don't know about this (0+ / 0-)

    I find it a little hard to fathom tea party and OWS joining forces in an overt manner.  The tea party is corporate funded.  The only way I see this happening is when the tea party totally rejects corporate backing, corporate influence in politics (starting with themselves!).  They sorta dance around that issue implying they are against corporate influence but then riding on corporate sponsored buses to their events.  That's problematic, dishonest and not a basis for moving forward.

    With all said, could there be people in the tea party who genuinely dislike the oligarchy?  Yes there could be.  I think that their stated "solution" is all wrong.  Reducing the size of government won't weaken the oligarchy, it will make them stronger.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 03:15:20 AM PST

  •  Huntsman supporters? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    where?

  •  In the end, the TP will pull the lever for Mittens (0+ / 0-)

    They won't like it, but he's not Obama, and that will be enough.

    "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

    by Apost8 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 06:54:51 AM PST

  •  This Diary is Proof Positive That White Males (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie, Matt Z

    whether they call themselves progressive or conservative, have more in common with each other than they do with me. You go "lie" down with the TeaBigots if you want to, Jesse, but all that you'll do is make an enemy of me. After all, if you're an American White Male, you're bound to have Repub family and friends, so you're more comfortable with demented, racist, sexist, war-mongering capitalistic degenerates than I could ever be.

    Next thing you know, they'll be an #OWS/TeaBigot alliance to bring down Obama. It seems that no matter what, left to their own, White Males just can't help but assist Repubs - see: Chicago, 1968; Nader, 2000;

    Jesse, I've been hyping you in my 'hood as an example of what is good about #OWS. I hope that I haven't fallen for the Okey-Doke again. You know, like how the Baby-Boomers were going to change the world, but in every Presidential election since 1972, White Baby-Boomers have voted Repub...

    I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican Party.

    60% of White-Americans voted for the TeaBigots in 2010. Yet, some Kossacks think Obama is the problem. I guess it's easier to blame Obama than it is to blame your momma

    by OnlyWords on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:20:01 AM PST

    •  The US ConsensUS (0+ / 0-)

      Non-Hispanic Whites will no longer make up the majority of the population
      by 2042. - (2012 US gov. census)
                 The Black/Latino Coalition will dominate the 2012 election!
      "If you wait by the river long enough, you will see the corpses of your enemies float by." - Sun Tzu
                                 ! Power to The People !

      Our Military is The Heart and Conscience of America

      by joe wobblie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:45:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I found this confusing: (0+ / 0-)
    “Well-known Wall Street companies stand at the nexus of where OWS protestors and the Tea Party overlap on angered populism,” the memo says

    So.  If BOTH the Left and the Right hate Wall Street....

    Just who was Obama catering to when he defended Wall Street's Excess by declaring them to be "Savvy Businessmen" who "Work Hard" for their "Success"?

    Is there some constituency out there we haven't thought of that the brilliant Obama was appealing to?

    Perhaps moderates and centrists shit themselves silly with glee at the thought of Banksters Gone Wild?

    Or is the answer staring us right in front of our face?

    Could it be that Obama believes those Wall Street Banksters are truly Hard Workers who deserve all their "Hard Earned" "Success"?  

    Transparency.

    It's there folks.

    You just have to open your eyes.

    Rethuglicans will always be worse than Obama. But damn, did Obama have to set the bar so high?

    by Johnathan Ivan on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 07:57:39 AM PST

  •  I disagree with this: (0+ / 0-)
    No candidate in the Presidential field in 2012 represents two faced Wall Streeters better than Mitt Romney. Occupy Wall Street knows it. The Tea Party knows it. Mitt Romney is Mr. 1%.

    I have no doubt Mittens loves him some Wall Street.

    But compared to Obama, Mittens is a light weight:

    JP Morgan Bankster Chief of Staff

    Bankster Lobbyist Running Re-Election Campaign

    Publicly Lauding Wall Street's Predators as "Savvy Businessmen" who "Work Hard" for their "Success"

    Ben Bernanke

    Tim Geithner

    Alan Simpson

    Cat Food Commission

    Eric Holder, who, when it comes to Wall Street crime makes Inspector Cleauseu look like Sherlock Holmes

    Championing Reform that does Nothing

    ----------------------------------------

    Rethuglicans will always be worse than Obama. But damn, did Obama have to set the bar so high?

    by Johnathan Ivan on Wed Jan 04, 2012 at 08:01:15 AM PST

  •  Jesse (0+ / 0-)

    I'm so glad to see your voice rising to prominence.  It's one of the few redeeming things to come out of 2011.

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