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With Mitt Romney now on board the "Obama is attacking Catholics" train, is he actually going to be able to sway Catholics onto his side? Romney has joined attacks on the new rules the administration has created, requiring that employers and insurance companies provide coverage for prescription birth control with no-copay, with an exemption for religious institutions who's primary mission in ministering to people of faith.

New polling from the nonprofit Public Religion Research Institute suggests that Catholics are a-okay with that rule.

prri poll
A majority (55%) of Americans agree that “employers should be required to provide their employees with health care plans that cover contraception and birth control at no cost.” Four-in-ten (40%) disagree with this requirement. [...]

Roughly 6-in-10 Catholics (58%) believe that employers should be required to provide their employees with health care plans that cover contraception.

Given the fact that 98 percent of Catholic women who've had sex are using birth control, and 99 percent of American women are using it, support for its coverage by insurance companies shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone other than maybe Rick Santorum (or Mitt Romney, depending on which day of the week it is).

The sliver of people who are offended by the idea of health insurance policies—which people pay for, with their own money—having to cover contraception is small. And extreme. And unfortunately, heavily male. "Women are significantly more likely than men to agree that employers should be required to provide health care plans that cover contraception (62% vs. 47% respectively)."

Fighting President Obama over contraceptive coverage might be a great way for Republicans to fire up their base, but it's not going to have much appeal when the primary is over.

Originally posted to Joan McCarter on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:17 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos and Pro Choice.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Great information (29+ / 0-)

    I never saw how this could possibly be a winning issue for them. The availability of contraception is pretty much up there with mom and apple pie as a Good Thing by 2012 in the United States. Those opposed represent such an insignificant extreme fringe as to be irrelevant to anyone running on the Democratic ticket anyway.

    •  Mittens just can't get that the (11+ / 0-)

      fundie nut job faction may end up supporting him on this point (or NOT) but he'll end up losing so many more voters because of it. Birth control is now well established.

      Center-Right country my @ss!

      •  Ask Romney to Reconcile Bishops' Position with (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ahianne

        REYNOLDS v. UNITED STATES.
        SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
        98 U.S. 145
        OCTOBER, 1878, Term

        One of the earliest, or the earliest, occassion on which the US Supreme Court addressed the conflict between personal religious beliefs and the requirements of law.

        Can the 'free excercise' clause act to exempt you from operation of an otherwise valid law?

        Nope.

        If it could, Mitt Romney's great grandfather would not have been forced to go to Mexico to continue practicing polygamy.

        In our opinion, the statute immediately under consideration is within the legislative power of Congress. It is constitutional and valid as prescribing a rule of action for all those residing in the Territories, and in places over which the United States have exclusive control. This being so, the only question which remains is, whether those who make polygamy a part of their religion are excepted from the operation of the statute. If they are, then those who do not make polygamy a part of their religious belief may be found guilty and punished, while those who do, must be acquitted and go free. This would be introducing a new element into criminal law. Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?

        So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? The permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances....

        Now the law in that area (as interpreted by the US Supreme Court) has obviously evolved since then and become a bit more nuanced, but the basic principles remain the same.

        The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

        by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 04:47:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, the laity using birth control keeps quiet (9+ / 0-)

      so there will be all sorts of howls about religious freedom in the media...but in the end, all the votes will be the same, because the employees want the benefit and the practitioners don't care. Let Romney keep trying to make that into something people vote about. He'll lose votes.

      “Romney’s ‘I’m not concerned with the very poor’ line may be the most idiotic thing a politician has ever said,” The Weekly Standard’s John McCormack tweeted.

      by Inland on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:50:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It would be better if the stats were right… (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, "99 percent of American women are using it", huh?

      I've slept with somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 women (hate that I have to give numbers, but work with me). Of that number, 4 were taking the pill when I first slept with them. Another 4 started taking the pill at some point in time while we were dating (including my wife who stopped before we had kids). At least six were neither on the pill and refused to let me wear a condom, is Joan seriously counting russian roulette, err, the rhythm method and pulling out in the 99%?

      Teh stoopidTM, it hurts. Buy smart, union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: DemSign.com. Get your We are the 99% Yard Sign.

      by DemSign on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 11:07:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  White Evangelicals once again prove that they are (26+ / 0-)

    a fringe group out of touch

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:22:30 AM PST

  •  One has to wonder why the Church didn't express (26+ / 0-)

    this amount of outrage over priestly abuse of children, mostly boys. Well, silly me. This is all about women, who still seem to matter not much to the clergy.

    "By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." Adolf Hitler

    by pittie70 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:24:18 AM PST

  •  I'm Catholic. (18+ / 0-)

    Fuck the Vatican and Bishops and their stupid bullshit.

    To love America is to hate the Republican party.

    by GOPGO2H3LL on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:26:53 AM PST

  •  I don't understand how churches maintain (27+ / 0-)

    their tax free status, while preaching against political policies from their pulpits.

    And the obvious point:

    No one is forcing anyone to take the birth control pills.

    The transaction is between the Doctor, the patient, the pharmacy, and the insurer.

    None of whom have the legal right to deny a woman her choice to use birth control.

    My head spins trying to square "Freedom/Free Choice" and "Keep the Government out of our business" with "We refuse, on persoanl religious grounds, to provide Freedom/Free Choice to others who don't believe as we do"

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:26:57 AM PST

  •  I expect the President to back down (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brooke In Seattle, CrissieP

    only because of a poor communication strategy early...

    I personally still would state the rationale, and pivot right back to jobs, and let them throw their hissy fits about strawmen. But that is me...I don't see it happening, because the dem pundits have already come down on the side of Republicans. Now of course, they did that with no information, and have admitted it on TV, but they are still fomenting faux outrage.

    The bigger story is what will them backing down do to the overall legal justification for the the law during oral arguments. If exemptions can be created for a business getting public funds, why can a private business be forced to do something?

    Slippery slope if they back off...I am not very optimistic...

    "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

    by justmy2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:32:25 AM PST

    •  Not likely. Might postpone application till 2013 (0+ / 0-)

      which they can apply to get via a waiver anyway.

      But the IOM Study on which it was based would mean he's backing down on lives and health.

      And given the even greater vulnerability of Romney (under Romney care which goes further and covers abortion services and Romney's flip-flop on pro-choice/Anti-choice) he doesn't have as much to worry as many are imagining.

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:19:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Funny.... (10+ / 0-)

    I don't remember the Bishops getting so fired up and going on TV this much back when priests were abusing little children?)

  •  Yet another example of how (14+ / 0-)

    out of touch the Catholic Church is, especially from the lived experience of Catholics.

    the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

    by mijita on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:34:32 AM PST

  •  Terry O'Neill (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SBandini, Into The Woods

    is using your stats right now, as I type.

    NOW now on NOW (msnbc)

    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

    by Sybil Liberty on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:34:59 AM PST

  •  Then please tell the news media (27+ / 0-)

    to stop having on Catholic MEN to insist we don't want it.

    There was a smarmy jerk on MSNBC's Jansing & Co this morning arguing with a female NARAL representative, and when she said "99% of women have used birth control at some time in their lives," he snottily interrupted "Oh, does that include my daughter?" Wisely, the woman from NARAL ignored his idiocy and went on with her point.

    Of course, we don't know how old his daughter is, but if she's of child-bearing age, she might just surprise dear old daddy.

    This was after Chuck Todd during his hour had on two MEN insisting that Catholic women don't want birth control so they don't need it covered. Note to EJ Dionne -- you don't speak for all Catholics or even a majority of them. Shut up already, and stop ruining your credibility with progressives/Democrats.

    Clueless, misogynistic assholes the lot of them.

    Please stop having on MALE guests to tell women we don't want or need birth control.

    PS: Now the lie is that hormonal b/c causes abortion, so the Catholics can't in good conscience cover ANY kind of b/c.

    I am so sick and tired of these jerkoffs trying to control women's sexuality!

    "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

    by Brooke In Seattle on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:36:25 AM PST

    •  Righteous. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, SaintC, maf1029, Brooke In Seattle

      All of a sudden a few men have named themselves Spokesman for All Catholic Women. My mom grew up Catholic and used birth control. She ain't the only one.

      And now R-money's calling the "morning after pill" an "abortion pill." Yuck.

    •  Agree although (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brooke In Seattle

      I don't want female guests coming on either to claim that women don't need birth control ... and I expect they could come up with some.

    •  I have been surprised at how CNN and MSNBC (0+ / 0-)

      (well, daytime MSNBC) have been treating this. If ever a group of people should be perceived as way out of line pushing their agenda in this arena, it is the Catholic Bishops. Maybe the half-empty churches are making them nervous and they suppose larger families would translate to fuller churches and more priests. There are many bishops, probabaly most of them retired or no longer alive, who actively and knowingly transferred priests who were known child molesters in and out of various parishes all over this country. It was the same story in Canada: think of the Quebec orphans and the residential schools for First Nations children. Horror stories suppressed and perpetuated worldwide for centuries by, among many others, the incredibly arrogant
      Bishops of the Catholic Church. Could not believe I heard E.J. Dionne say that Catholics are tired of the Church being pushed around. As if. The Church and other organizations dererve all the pushing they get and more for what they have done. Yes, there are good things being done by many churches and people of faith. But this is not yet a theocracy. Time to tax the churches if they feel they are entitled to push policy with wanton disregard for past crimes.

      •  Let's try a thought exercise (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro, BlackNGreen, kellius, Timaeus

        Look across the pews on Sunday and you'll see that Catholics are not tired of seeing the church pushed around. They're tired of the church pushing them around.

        In reality, the liberal punditry class sees this issue as: Catholic church opposes birth control >> Lots of catholics in swing states in the midwest >> ZOMG Obama is going to lose the white working class! He just doesn't get them or respect their traditions! The old bugaboo is back!
        It just too easily fits their template for them to ignore it.

        But let's conduct a thought exercise. Imagine a practicing Catholic male that is open to supporting Democrats. De facto, he does not believe that church doctrine on social/sexual morality issues should be determinitive in how he votes (if he did, he'd vote GOP every time). He has reconciled the Democratic positions on gay marriage and Abortion with his Catholic background, and is ok with the differences in viewpoint.

        EJ Dionne and Mark Shields and probably Chris Matthews would have you believe that telling this man "thanks to Obama, lab techs at Catholic hospitals and secretaries at Boston College can get access to birth control pills covered by the insurance they pay for if they choose" is going to do what gay marriage and abortion could not -- drive these men in droves into the arms of a mormon Presidential candidate.

        I mean, come the fuck on.

        The only way this becomes an issue is if the media chooses to shove it down America's throats for long enough in an effort to make it an issue.

      •  I was in error when I wrote earlier (0+ / 0-)

        today that I heard E.J. Dionne saying that Catholics were tired of the church being pushed around. It was George Weigel, Catholic theologian, who was sitting beside Dionne. Still ticked about the Church position on this, but I at least want to be accurate when quoting.

  •  Mittens advocating cutting funding to (7+ / 0-)

    Planned Parenthood while opposing including contraception in healthcare plans? Talk about playing right into Obama's hands. If I didn't know better I would think that Romney was a plant.

  •  WTF is up with mainline protestants, though? (6+ / 0-)

    i thought those were supposed to be the moderate ones, lutherans and methodists and the like.

    •  There are. Don't vote in Republican Primaries! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW

      Why would the Religious LEFT vote for Mr. Frothy, anyway?

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:47:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

        i was referring to the 50% of mainline protestants who were opposed to mandated contraceptive coverage, not santorum.

        •  Where do you put Baptists, Church of Christ, (0+ / 0-)

          7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's witnesses, etc on the list?

          If the number is 50% for, then I think you have it figured out already.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          —Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:58:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  adventists and jehova's witnesses are numerically (0+ / 0-)

            rather irrelevant, but i would assume most baptists and church of christ would be under the aegis of evangelical protestants. mainline in my mind = lutherans, methodists, presbyterians, congregationalists, anglicans, episcopalians, etc.

    •  Maybe they are older. (0+ / 0-)

      Once you get past childbearing years, contraception is more of a sin than before.

      “Romney’s ‘I’m not concerned with the very poor’ line may be the most idiotic thing a politician has ever said,” The Weekly Standard’s John McCormack tweeted.

      by Inland on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:59:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  To paraphrase Lanie Kazan's (9+ / 0-)

    character from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"

    "The Bishops may be the head, but the parishioners are the neck, and the neck turns the head any way it wants"

    Even though the parishioners may not change the bishops official position, they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

    I was a cradle Catholic and beyond my grandparents generation, each of their 7 kids used birth control; each of their kids used birth control; everyone I knew while I was observant, used birth control.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:41:00 AM PST

    •  Saying and Doing Don't Always Coincide (0+ / 0-)
      Even though the parishioners may not change the bishops official position, they're gonna do what they're gonna do.
      Even if it differs from what they say they do or would do.

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:22:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Romney's position is for the Primaries, of course. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sun dog

    He'll flip as soon as the Republican Convention is over.

    Seriously, what additional political cost would a flip-flop-flip-flop exact from Romney at this point?

    I bet he's trying to resurrect the Nixon (right for the primary, middle for the general) strategy.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:44:39 AM PST

    •  Flip to what? Mother Church just needs to... (0+ / 0-)

      ..."buck up and deal with it?"

      No, he'll stay on this line through the General and assert this is yet another difference between the Commonwealth Connector and the ACA.

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:26:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I Wonder Who All's Included in "Mainline." (0+ / 0-)

    There's also the phenomenon of evangelicals taking over mainline churches and not necessarily changing denomination name. I've been in several "mainline" churches in recent years but rudely awakened by the classic fundy practice.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:45:16 AM PST

  •  I, for one, think that the Republicans (4+ / 0-)

    should run hard on an anti-birth control message. Do it!

    Please.

    My comments are not intended to be factual statements.

    by asm121 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:46:12 AM PST

    •  won't be the message (0+ / 0-)

      it will be about Democrats dictating to private organizations what they can and can not do....

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:34:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  As opposed to Churches or Govt Dictating What (0+ / 0-)

        Doctors can do (to treat or prescribe) for their women patients if they believe abortion or contraceptives are appropriate.

        Which is the real basis of Roe V Wade, prohibiting State interference with the Dr/Patient relationship until a point in the pregnancy that State interests are sufficiently implicated to support first regulation and then prohibition.

        The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

        by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:30:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  But should we help punish/force employees? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polecat, Oothoon, jhop7, Into The Woods

    Nobody talks about birth control, even the bishops and priests. [What's crazy weird about Santorum is that he actually preaches about birth control, something that every Catholic clergyman knows not to do as they scan the congregation and see mostly families of two and three kids, rather than the six to sixteen that were the norm a generation ago.]

    So the real battle for choice and freedom isn't between the government and the church, it's between the church and its employees: the church is using its power as an employer to increase the cost of birth control over the catholics and non catholics that work in their institutions. It makes as much sense as allowing those institutions to pay less than minimum wage because they fear that actual money will allow employees to buy birth control on their own or maybe indulge in some other sins.

    “Romney’s ‘I’m not concerned with the very poor’ line may be the most idiotic thing a politician has ever said,” The Weekly Standard’s John McCormack tweeted.

    by Inland on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:48:24 AM PST

  •  "Require Employers"? (6+ / 0-)

    How about universal health care that doesn't require employers anything?

  •  Should be a non-issue (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhop7

    Even if they are forced to provide birth control coverage, if the insurance is only for their faithful flock nobody will use it, right?

    Problem solved!

    I'll be running for both president and pope.

  •  The numbers you're reporting (3+ / 0-)

    are in response to whether or not people support contraception coverage in employer-provided health insurance.

    Just below the graph, the question is more specific and, while still encouraging, the results are not as clear.

    # Nearly half (49%) of Americans say that religiously affiliated colleges and hospitals should be required to provide their employees with health care plans that cover contraception or birth control at no cost. Forty-six percent say they should not have to provide this type of coverage.

      * A majority of Catholics (52%) say that religiously affiliated colleges and hospitals should have to provide coverage that includes contraception.
      o Among Catholic voters, however, only 45% support this requirement, while 52% oppose it.
      o Only about 4-in-10 (41%) white Catholics support this requirement, compared to 58% who oppose it.

    Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by NLinStPaul on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:51:54 AM PST

    •  The Churches (who are exempt) are making (0+ / 0-)

      the biggest stink.

      They are working very hard to create an issue where it does not really exist.

      ...In reality, the mandate is modeled on existing rules in six states, exempts houses of worship and other religious nonprofits that primarily employ and serve people of faith, and offers employers a transitional period of one year to determine how best to comply with the rule.

      It’s also nothing new. Twenty-eight states already require organizations that offer prescription insurance to cover contraception and since 98 percent of Catholic women use birth control, many Catholic institutions offer the benefit to their employees. For instance, a Georgetown University spokesperson told ThinkProgress yesterday that employees “have access to health insurance plans offered and designed by national providers to a national pool. These plans include coverage for birth control.”

      ...

      It would be intersting to know the population (and share of US total) that live in those 28 states.

      http://thinkprogress.org/...

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:37:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let's take the Komen protest energy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, OldDragon

    and make it clear to the administration that they shouldn't cave to the bishops on this.

    Stop politicizing women's health care.

    (There's no use lobbying the bishops; they never change their minds.)

  •  So much for the president... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew

    ..."throwing progressive Catholics under the bus" with this rule (as claimed in a piece shown by my area's Fox affiliate on Sunday, that quoted a column by E.J. Dionne, who I usually agree with on many things but definitely not this one.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Gandhi

    by alaprst on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:54:04 AM PST

    •  I'm confused -- are these rules revised from ones (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      justmy2

      that were released a couple of weeks ago? 2 weeks ago, our priest read a letter from the Bishop that basically said that the administrators (and the devil) were forcing the Catholic Church to cover abortions.

      •  Your priest was lying. The rules haven't (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        justmy2, Odysseus, Into The Woods

        changed. The Catholic church is choosing to lie about the rules to push votes to the Republicans. The rule states that except for churches (or religious groups that only employee/service people of the same faith) all policies have to provide contraceptive coverage with no copay. If they fail to do so, they will be charged approximately 2,000/employee each year. There are no requirements that abortion be covered. So, the government is not forcing any religious hospital or college to provide this coverage. They just have to pay a fine like any secular organization would do when employing/servicing people of various faiths.

        President Obama at Madison Rally 9/28/2010 - "Change is not a spectator sport."

        by askew on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:12:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Note: Churches are exempted. Abortion Services (0+ / 0-)

          are not required to be covered.

          The latter are required to be covered by Romney Care.

          Not sure if Romney Care offers exemption to Churches.

          The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

          by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:39:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  because Plan B and birth control pills, (0+ / 0-)

        and failed in-vitro procedures are considered abortion?

        I am not Catholic, but I thought that was the belief?

        "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

        by justmy2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:36:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wrote this to my pastor -- (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro

        Father --,

        A few weeks ago, the topic of the homily was a letter written by the Bishop regarding new federal health insurance rules. Although Mass was delivered by a different priest, I am sure that you are familiar with the controversy surrounding these rules. After reading the letter, there was some additional editorializing that left the message that the current administration was doing the work of the devil.

        The letter and other comments during the homily very clearly described rules which forces organizations, including Catholic and other religious organizations, to subsidize contraceptives and abortion. A very clear and specific point was made that these rules force the Catholic Church to financially support abortion. I was very uncomfortable with the demonization of the current administration. However, I was also surprised and alarmed that these rules mandated coverage of abortion.

        I agree and believe in the sanctity of life. Although I consider myself a strong Democrat - especially when it comes to education and social welfare programs - I was horrified that the federal government would mandate abortion coverage with no co-pay. I was also surprised because this type of mandate goes against the previous and consistent stance against federal funding of abortion that this administration has held since early in the health care debates. Furthermore, it seemed to be a stupid political move! Why enrage and provoke Christians and other religious people in an election year?

        Perhaps I am missing something. I reviewed the rules here: http://www.hrsa.gov/...

        The rules cover a variety of preventative women's health care services, including contraceptions. The rules also provide possible exclusions for some religious organizations. I do understand that there is some concern that those exclusions might be too narrow. I also understand, and conflicted by, the Catholic Church's view of contraception. I do understand why the Catholic Church has concerns about these guidelines. However, these rules clearly do not cover abortions.

        The letter from the Bishop and additional comments during the homily were deceptive, dishonest, and carefully crafted to provoke a political reaction. These rules do not force the Catholic Church to cover abortions as clearly stated during the homily. These rules are not about "the devil's work" or "evil spirits in Washington D.C." Instead, the rules are intended to provide equitable health service to women.

        It appears to me that the Bishop(s) had to mislead Catholics by talking about abortion because he knew that there would not be a reaction if the true intent of the rules - coverage for women's health including and contraception - was given. The message delivered in that homily was outrageous and disgusting.

  •  I'm just reading (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DB55

    in the NYT that the administration will be looking to compromise on this issue. A very good idea.

    I work in a Catholic hospital and while our insurance does not cover contraception, my institution provides over 30 million dollars each year in uncompensated health care to our community. (Out of a total budget of about 400 million.)

    In this day and age, a fairly righteous thing.

    Re-elect Barack Obama and elect Elizabeth Warren

    by al23 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:54:48 AM PST

    •  Yeah and your organization gets millions of (4+ / 0-)

      dollars from the government to do it. So, that's not really "free" coverage.

      And this was a compromise already. I'll be pissed if they compromise again to please some old white men.

      President Obama at Madison Rally 9/28/2010 - "Change is not a spectator sport."

      by askew on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:14:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They would be pleasing a majority of Catholic (0+ / 0-)

        voters who oppose the rule.

        Key word, voters.

        •  That is a horrible reason for changing this rule. (0+ / 0-)

          President Obama at Madison Rally 9/28/2010 - "Change is not a spectator sport."

          by askew on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 01:07:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Who would otherwise vote for whom? Romney? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew

          Who's healthcare system (Romney Care) requires not only the same thing but also abortion services?

          The Romney whose flip-flops on pro-choice/anti-choice make Kerry look like the Rock of Gibralter.

          They would vote for Romney over Obama based on this?

          When their own actions and own health and financial welfare (including the many, many Catholics who say one thing and do another on this issue) would be negatively impacted if the rule was undone?

          The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

          by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:43:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  And what of the people who work for the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew

          organization, some of whom may not be Catholic and some of whom may be Catholic but may not agree with the bishops on birth control? What of their right to the same health care that everyone else in the country can have? Or do we just say that no one can get birth control covered?

          The law says that insurance companies have to include birth control with no copay. The Catholic-affiliated hospitals and universities aren't providing contraception. They're providing insurance. The insurance companies need to follow the law of the land.

      •  so askew, you would prefer (0+ / 0-)

        that we go after people's wages and homes when they can't afford to pay?

        what you actually meant to say was that, in my hospitals case, about 70% of the monies we collect comes from Medicare and Medicaid. the balance from private insurance, like Blue Cross, etc.

        Re-elect Barack Obama and elect Elizabeth Warren

        by al23 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 05:31:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  sorry Askew (0+ / 0-)

        it is uncompensated. That means we get nothing from the state or the federal government. nothing. Your average, for profit hospital or many non profits have no problem going after your home or income in court. We don't do that.

        For example, at my place we have a dental surgery clinic. We get folks from all over, because they know we will provide the care, regardless of their ability to pay. You might brush this off, but if it was your jaw that was being wired for free, you'd be pretty damn grateful

        Re-elect Barack Obama and elect Elizabeth Warren

        by al23 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 05:44:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just don't get the point of this. This seems (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew

          like a defense against what the bishops have characterized as "an attack on the church." No one is attacking the church. What the Obama administration is trying to do is to make sure women can get health care.

    •  What sort of compromise? (0+ / 0-)

      I wonder how people would react to a compromise that required employers to cover at least some form of birth control, but not necessarily something such as birth control pills.

      •  Extend blanket waiver for anyone who would be (0+ / 0-)

        eligible to ask for the waiver for an additional one year.

        Puts it out past the election. But the difference in 'plan' might mean higher costs because it applies to a smaller group.

        The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

        by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:45:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, that's still discriminating against women who (0+ / 0-)

        happen to work at Catholic-affiliated hospitals or universities.

  •  The Obama team baited Rmoney using this decision (4+ / 0-)

    because Romney is on the record advocating for contraceptives in MA

    http://www.politico.com/...

    Frothy is all over that..(figuratively)

    /If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer/. Thoreau

    by hron on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 09:55:25 AM PST

    •  Argument....the state should be able to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Egalitare

      go against religious beliefs...it is the federal government that is going overboard...

      as insane as it sounds, that will be the argument....Joe Scarborough even tried it this morning...

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:16:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Churches Should Not Be Able to Trump Public Policy (0+ / 0-)

        on legal services nor use the State to inflict their religious beliefs on others.

        No one is saying anyone must use contraceptives (though 99% of Catholic women have at some point.)

        Nor should the Church be able to demand that the State interfere in the doctor/patient relationship or decision-making process.

        The rule just says that if you work in a hospital and seek that kind of prescription, it should not matter whether you or your employer is Catholic in determining whether what you want and your doctor prescribes should be covered under an insurance plan that is required to meet certain minimum standards.

        But the GOP is just fine with State Interference, when it's the 'right' kind of interference (according to their sole and complete discretion as dictated directly to them personally by Gawhd Almighty.)

        The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

        by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 02:52:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Facts, the truth, and reality DON'T MATTER.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maf1029

    ...in the conservative world! And they NEVER will.

    It is, has been, and always will be (despite facts, truth, and reality) that the conservative thinking is solely:
    "Our Way or eff off!!!"

    No amount of debate, discussion, or reasoning will ever penetrate the Great Wall of Stupidity that conservative thinking has erected to insulate itself and it's imaginary world.

  •  Now the next question is, how many of them conside (0+ / 0-)

    themselves to be "pro-choice"?

    I think many place birth control and abortion into 2 different categories. Especially if you take the Catholic view that life starts at conception into account.

  •  This is misleading - look closer at that poll. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    splintersawry, CrissieP

    It is true that a majority of Catholics believe that employers in general should provide contraception as part of a health insurance package. The issue at hand, however, is not employers as a whole but religious institutions that may have beliefs that oppose providing contraceptive services.

    This same poll finds that a majority of Catholic voters do not support this requirement for religiously affiliated colleges and hospitals:

    A majority of Catholics (52%) say that religiously affiliated colleges and hospitals should have to provide coverage that includes contraception.

      Among Catholic voters, however, only 45% support this requirement, while 52% oppose it.
      Only about 4-in-10 (41%) white Catholics support this requirement, compared to 58% who oppose it.

    I think this could in fact be a big issue with Catholic voters, particularly white Catholic voters in swing states such as Pennsylvania and Ohio, and that liberal Catholics such as E.J. Dionne, who otherwise support this president, are right to be concerned. I'd like to see some type of solution where this coverage could be provided to these employees without it being paid for directly by religious institutions whose beliefs it violates (see the Hawaii solution referred to be Dionne.
    •  But 90% Favor Using Birth Control/Contraceptives. (0+ / 0-)

      That's Catholics.

      So what's the real story here? The 1% within the Catholic Church (ok, 10%) are opposed to a legal, medically acceptable practice.

      The 90% support it.

      28 States already require what is in this 'new' rule.

      So the most recent snapshot you quote, concerning an issue that has seen more hype than facts, may not be the tell on how the 'Catholic voter' will actually vote.

      What we really have here is the 'Christian' RightWing, dominated by the Conservative-leaning Evangelicals, driving this bus.

      ...One very interesting finding is that the attitudes of Catholics are generally very similar to those of all adults and, on some issues, very unlike the official position of the Pope and the Church. For example, overwhelming majorities of Catholics favor contraception (90%), condom use to prevent HIV and STD infections (93%), the funding of international birth control programs (66%), embryonic stem cell research (70%) and the withdrawal of life support for those in a vegetative state (68%). A majority (56%) also supports abortion rights.
        On the other hand, born-again Christians, adults who think of themselves as "very religious" and Evangelicals are much less supportive of all of these programs and policies, with Evangelicals being the least likely to support them. For example, only 28 percent of Evangelicals support abortion rights (compared to 63% of all adults) and only 38 percent of Evangelicals support embryonic stem cell research (compared to 70% of all adults).

      ...

      2005- New Harris Poll Finds Different Religious Groups Have Very Different Attitudes to Some Health Policies and Programs

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 03:13:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Hawaii solution sounds very cumbersome (0+ / 0-)

      for women and it also sounds like it would interfere with her privacy.

  •  the title of this diary should read... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie

    Stuff It GOP - not Sorry......n/t

  •  Poor Reporting (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, mchestnutjr

    Correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is employers are required to offer insurance that covers birth control, etc under this new law in addition to offering plans that do not. Thus, in the case of the "faithful" they have the choice of which to buy. If this is true, the Catholic leadership and the media are doing a disservice and in my mind purposefully misleading people to create dissension and division.

  •  My beloved aunt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaurenMonica

    had 9 beautiful children (I love them all -- and trust me, they are all beautiful) ad 3 miscarriages because of the rhythm method (don't make me write comedy). She said to me in her dotage year that the better Catholic birth control was "NO." She couldn't because she had the most dear husband in the world.

    Many, many Catholics -- despite the contempt for them I read here -- are also progressive and despise the hierarchy. Just like a lot of progressive folks here and elsewhere, they are part of an organization despite the fact that they abhor many of the tenets.

    Do folks here condemn OWS because anarchists and Paulbots are part of the mix? I don't think so. Each Catholic thinks for themselves-- for good or bad. Many of you weren't even alive during the Berrigan brothers period.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:02:05 AM PST

  •  someone should tell Scarborough (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaurenMonica, askew, SaintC, tobendaro, Delilah

    He and Halperin were talking about how Obama has damaged himself with this issue. They were so worried about him! He is in such bad shape rasmussen had him at 51% approval today.

  •  Catholics at Sunday Mass (9+ / 0-)

    I would like to see the Catholic church at every mass to announce that every woman present who takes birth control cannot receive communion today. Let see the reaction they get from that kind of annoucement.

    Do not adjust your mind, there is a flaw in reality.

    by Shrew in Shrewsbury on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:04:48 AM PST

  •  Axlerod probably polled it (0+ / 0-)

    Before they went ahead with it.

    •  doubt it...he was backtracking this morning (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CrissieP

      as fast as he could...

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:18:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe this poll will get the concern trolls to (0+ / 0-)

    stop saying that Obama needs to reverse this immediately now.

    President Obama at Madison Rally 9/28/2010 - "Change is not a spectator sport."

    by askew on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:05:54 AM PST

  •  And as a Catholic, Romney shouldn't think that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Into The Woods

    Catholics (mainly conservative ones) would fall in love with him. Having attending Sunday classes and masses, I know for the fact, that most catholics dislike Mormons more than they dislike Atheist and Scientologists

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:06:22 AM PST

  •  On KNEW AM this morning Glenn Beck (ugh!) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Into The Woods

    was saying "when Obama was speaking to a group of Catholic Clergy and saying Jesus would have supported higher taxes on the rich, why didn't one of them stand up and ask Obama why he was forcing Catholic employers to provide contraception?"

    Well, now we know! They don't have a problem with it, is why! Who knew??

  •  and they have since 1966. (0+ / 0-)

    Surprise surprise surprise
    Mayberry GOP

    . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

    by 88kathy on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:07:00 AM PST

  •  Just a link to consider (0+ / 0-)

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/...

    I wonder about the validity of whether or not most catholics are on board with this provision in the health care bill with regard to birth control.

    - If you don't like gay marriage, blame straight people. They're the ones who keep having gay babies.

    by r2did2 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:07:25 AM PST

    •  Catholic League Threatens to Fight in the Streets (0+ / 0-)

      Of course, bark does not always equal bite, especially when 90% of Catholics approve of the use of birth control/contraceptives.

      “Never before, unprecedented in American history, for the federal government to line up against the Roman Catholic Church,” said Catholic League head Bill Donohue.

      Already Archbishop Timothy Dolan has spoken out against the law and priests around the country have mobilized, reading letters from the pulpit. Donohue said Catholic officials will stop at nothing to put a stop to it.

      This is going to be fought out with lawsuits, with court decisions, and, dare I say it, maybe even in the streets,” Donohue said.

      (From the article you linked to-
      http://newyork.cbslocal.com/... )

      Did Donahue and the Catholic League go to war on the contraceptives and abortion services required to be covered in MA under RomneyCare? Did the 'Catholic voters of MA' rise up and repeal that law?

      (Or did they vote their personal conscience instead of the Papal edict?)

      Did the Donahue's Catholic League do this much to get behind the Bishops' call to make January"Poverty Awareness Month"?
      Too bad the month has passed. Too bad the priorities of the Catholic Church (and Right Wing Protestants who are really driving this bus) are so scewed.

      I was hungry and you gave me food.
      I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink
      I was naked and you clothed me.
      I was a stranger and you invited me in.
      I was sick and you came to see me.
      I was in jail and you visited me.
      I was using a condom and you took it away from me.
      Which of those sentences don't belong?

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 03:56:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  children are not a punishment (6+ / 0-)

    The right wants wants us to stop using birth control and abortion. But why? Because sex is bad, and bad things should have consequences. Punishments. And what is that punishment? A child. That's why they'll slut-shame women on their way into the clinic. That's why they say "you shouldn't have had sex, then" when you suggest birth control or plan B. That's why they make an allowance for "honest" rape.

    I call bullshit on these fuckers.

    The best thing about birth control is that gives couples (and especially women) the power to choose when the sex that bonds them like glue and gives them pleasure will lead to a child. That makes the child a welcome member of the family, not a punishment from the almighty, who can't be bothered to punish people who actually deserve it.

    Birth control is a genie you won't get back in the bottle, conservatives. Time to give up trying and move on. The risk reduction that birth control provides leads to a better quality of life for everyone. I know you don't believe that people (besides you) deserve a decent quality of life, but that's something else you need give up on.

    "You're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic."

    by nominalize on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:16:08 AM PST

    •  Tell that to a majority of Catholic Voters. (0+ / 0-)

      Since that is the reason this is getting so much traction:

      •Among Catholic voters, however, only 45% support this requirement, while 52% oppose it.
      •  90% Catholics Approve of the Use of Birth Control (0+ / 0-)

        It's the rightwing evangelical protestants that are really driving this bus (and the small minority of Catholics and their church officials who adamantly oppose anything but the rythym method.)

        The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

        by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 03:59:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Only 62% of women want insurance companies (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, tobendaro, Brooke In Seattle

    to cover their birth control? I imagine a lot of those who don't want this benefit are old teabaggers who no longer need it.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have too much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little… I see one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clothed, ill-nourished." -Franklin Roosevelt

    by shoeless on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:25:46 AM PST

  •  Bishops are far more conservative than laity (2+ / 0-)

    Much like Republican selections for the courts, the priests that are becoming bishops and archbishops in today's American Catholic church are the most conservative of the conservative.

    As a practicing Catholic, I hope these men get some wisdom about current society before they make my religion into something it was not when I joined the faith 35+ years ago.

  •  Because the neanderthal wing of Catholic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foucaultspendulum

    church is louder and meaner than the sane 21st century end.

    thanks

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 10:28:03 AM PST

  •  Would you like religion with those fries? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, foucaultspendulum
    an exemption for religious institutions who's primary mission in ministering to people of faith.
    There's going to be a lot of back and forth over THAT slippery slope. Catholic Church (all churches for example) that run hospitals that "primarily" serve Catholics as well as employment for bus drivers, teachers, maintenance people etc. in all kinds of operations.

    Rule should have been all employers period. If the people have religious beliefs that prevent THEM from using birth control, that's the individual's choice. It should not be made for them by their employer.

  •  Hmm. (2+ / 0-)

    According to the figure, Catholics are, as a group, much more in favor of birth control coverage than either of the two other religiously affiliated groups. That seems counter-intuitive to me. In the past, Protestants and Catholics both objected to abortion but only Catholics to contraception. Now it appears that only Protestants are objecting to contraception.

    •  Born-Again Evangelicals Driving this Bus (0+ / 0-)

      Because while the Catholic voters may be split on their approval of the legal requirement, their personal beliefs make it unlikely to drive their choice between Obama and Romney (unlike fundie protestants, who are already against Obama no matter who's running against him.)

      ...One very interesting finding is that the attitudes of Catholics are generally very similar to those of all adults and, on some issues, very unlike the official position of the Pope and the Church. For example, overwhelming majorities of Catholics favor contraception (90%), condom use to prevent HIV and STD infections (93%), the funding of international birth control programs (66%), embryonic stem cell research (70%) and the withdrawal of life support for those in a vegetative state (68%). A majority (56%) also supports abortion rights.
        On the other hand, born-again Christians, adults who think of themselves as "very religious" and Evangelicals are much less supportive of all of these programs and policies, with Evangelicals being the least likely to support them. For example, only 28 percent of Evangelicals support abortion rights (compared to 63% of all adults) and only 38 percent of Evangelicals support embryonic stem cell research (compared to 70% of all adults). ...
      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      The time has come to put the "Occ" in "DemOCCracy". Support (or create) the "Occupy" movement near you. Ordinary Citizens Count in this extraordinary Democcracy.

      by Into The Woods on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 04:06:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The "Quiverfull" Movement (0+ / 0-)

      Leave your "Family Planning" up to God.

      This movement started to pick up momentum in the 1980's.

      Like every other movement, it has a spectrum.   The Duggars of "Nineteen and Counting. . ." fame are on the extreme end.

      "He not busy being born is busy dying" -- Bob Dylan

      by Kascade Kat on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 07:57:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  BWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAA!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foucaultspendulum

    Catholics are more likely to favor coverage of contraception than Americans in general.

    How rich is that?

    What'd the devil give you for your soul, Tommy? He taught me to play this here guitar REAL good. Oh son, for that you traded your everlastin' soul? Well, I wuddn' usin' it.

    by ZedMont on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 11:12:59 AM PST

  •  So let me get this straight... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Into The Woods

    Whether or not you obey the laws depends on the name on the side of your Building?

    Peter's Hospital has to follow the laws?

    St. Peter's Hospital gets to ignore them?

  •  Separation of Church and State for Dummies: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jakewaters, bdop4, Mgleaf

    Today's coverage of the HHS ruling on contraceptives is NOT controversial when the doctrine of separation of church and state is applied to the discussion.

    The issue is simple:

    The "Cloister" vs The "Commons".

    In the "Cloister", the church has ultimate authority and
    responsibility over those who choose to be a part of the cloister.

    On the "Commons", all participants are under the authority and control of secular law and order, all participants being treated in the same manner.

    The conflict over the HHS ruling is that the church wants to be immune from the secular authority when it ventures out to participate on the Commons.

    The church ventures onto the commons in order to seek new members by doing good deeds. To proselytize, recruit new members and grow the church.

    For the government to acknowledge and allow the church to exert its doctrinal authority on the Commons would be to assist the establishment of the church.

    Good deeds done on the Commons by the church is not authority to allow the "establishment of church" on the commons by allowing immunity from secular law and order, resulting in SPECIAL treatment to the church.

    *Austerity is the opposite of Prosperity*

    by josmndsn on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 11:30:08 AM PST

  •  ANTIS will lose on the contraception issue. (0+ / 0-)
  •  Obama jumped a 2000 year old shark & got bit (0+ / 0-)

    "Fighting President Obama over contraceptive coverage might be a great way for Republicans to fire up their base, but it's not going to have much appeal when the primary is over"

    Delusional.

  •  Regarding churches and other places of worship (0+ / 0-)

    A majority of Americans (57%) say that they should not have to provide employees with health care plans that cover contraception or birth control.

    I would be curious to hear from people who believe that religiously-affiliated colleges and hospitals should be required to provide such health care plans, but churches shouldn't. (And I consider that to be a stance that a reasonable person can hold.)

  •  The more I think about it, the more it seems (0+ / 0-)

    what is really at issue here is health coverage as a right. Mainly because the argument on the government's side has to come back to the justification that everybody should have access to the same health care options, whether employed by the government or a private entity, or even by a religious group that opposes certain medical items on theological grounds.
      I think they're drawing a bright line and saying that what's legal for one is legal for all, which is good policy and can ultimately strengthen both our government and our churches.
      Of course, the RCs have been known to cop out on issues that cede any authority to the government, so maybe they'll just drop insurance coverage for their employees altogether.
      Although what I'd dearly love to see is the end of the "conscientious" denial of women's services by all unethical health services providers. Maybe that's in the pipeline, too.

  •  This has probably been said already in this thread (0+ / 0-)

    but let me just chime in to reaffirm that the bishops are always way to the right of the laity.

    Very few lay Catholics think this is a big issue, and I doubt very much that this will have any impact on the presidential race.

  •  Speaking as a Quaker (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow

    As someone who is opposed to war as much as any Catholic Bishop opposes abortion or contraception, I would very much like to be exempted from having my taxes used to fund the Defense Department.

    If Catholic organizations should be exempted from paying for insurance that covers contraception, why shouldn't Quakers be exempted from having to pay taxes that fund war and killing.

    Will the Mittster stand up for my religious freedom too?

    I didn't think so.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 03:19:49 PM PST

  •  Right-wing AM talk radio agrees: no big deal (0+ / 0-)

    So many Catholics and conservatives use contraceptives that the guys I've heard on the radio tonight are not beating their breasts about Massive Government Intrusion.

  •  But a majority of Catholic VOTERS oppose it (0+ / 0-)

    From the linked article:

    •A majority of Catholics (52%) say that religiously affiliated colleges and hospitals should have to provide coverage that includes contraception.
     •Among Catholic voters, however, only 45% support this requirement, while 52% oppose it.
     •Only about 4-in-10 (41%) white Catholics support this requirement, compared to 58% who oppose it.

    PROUD to be a Democrat!

    by leevank on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 07:21:14 PM PST

  •  Obama won 54% of the Catholic vote in 2008 (0+ / 0-)

    About the same percentage as the ones who think employers should provide contraception. So I don't think this will cost him the "Catholic vote" --other than the ones who voted against him last time, the Opus Dei bots.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 08:51:45 PM PST

  •  There is also this: If a Catholic-affiliated (0+ / 0-)

    institution should be allowed to deny contraceptive coverage to its employees, then what about any employer who is anti-birth control?

    Do we just have to throw out the requirement to provide insurance with contraception coverage?

  •  Birth control pills available in Italy (0+ / 0-)

    Are birth control pills available over the counter in Italy

    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/...

    OK, where do our kooky Catholics get off—you can get birth control over the counter—in ROME.

    I swear we have become the most stupid people on the fucking planet.

    F*ck those idiots and the voters they rode in on.

    by roninkai on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 02:52:02 AM PST

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