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On January 23th-25th, I had the opportunity to present a proposal on mitigating climate change to the United Nations Framework Convention of Climate Change(UNFCCC) and to Rio+20 coordinators Brice Lalonde and Elizabeth Thompson.  The presentations were sponsored and arranged by the MIT Climate CoLab  and I can tell you that the people involved in these meetings are passionately involved in trying to break through the stalemate of inaction that has crippled any positive movement on climate change. The meeting with the UNFCCC was a video conference with the committee which has an international composition.  Our group also had international participates but included several from the US, including myself.  I was totally embarrassed at one point in the meeting when the head of the committee asked those of us from the US if there was anything we could do about the Republicans.  The world knows that it is the Republican party of the US who is the major obstruction to any positive movement on climate change.

My proposal entitled The Planet Or Your Plate was presented jointly with Gerard Widderburn-Bisship, senior scientist at The World Preservation Foundation and was about reducing Short Lived Climate Forcers as this is essential to buying time to reduce CO2 which has an atmospheric lifetime of hundreds of years.

The Good News is that the US is Leading a New Coalition to Reduce "Short Lived"  Climate Pollution

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton Thursday announced a new global initiative to reduce short-lived climate pollutants.

Working together as the Climate and Clean Air Coalition, Bangladesh, Canada, Ghana, Mexico, Sweden, and the United States will conduct what Secretary Clinton described as "a targeted, practical, and highly energetic global campaign to spread solutions to the short-lived pollutants worldwide."

Of course, this is the beginning but the US is acknowledging the science and is leading on this vital initiative.   They also are missing the elephant in the room which is that the major contributor to the Short Lived Climate Forces is livestock production.  I know the United Nations is  aware of the major contribution of animal agriculture to the Short Lived Climate Forcers and I believe the US is too. Even on this site it is apparent that advocating for reduced meat consumption is not a political winner

The Obama administration has recently helped this new initiative by greatly reducing their meat purchasing for the public school breakfast program.  The school breakfast program served 8.2 Million children daily breakfast in 2002. So the US is also acknowledging that it is not necessary to build a healthy meal around animal protein that plant protein can be a healthier choice.

The US needs to broaden the coalition to include many more countries and also needs to acknowledge the contribution of livestock production to Climate Change.  But that is coming.  We can all do our part by voluntarily reducing/eliminating our meat consumption.

Here is a video presentation of the science of Short Lived Climate Forcers:

Originally posted to beach babe in fl on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:20 PM PST.

Also republished by Meatless Advocates Meetup, Climate Hawks, I Vote for Democrats, DK GreenRoots, and Good News.

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  •  Tip Jar (170+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joedemocrat, Radical def, GAS, antooo, burnt out, cotterperson, Hopeful Skeptic, John Crapper, JekyllnHyde, kevinpdx, Lawrence, indycam, victoria2dc, FishOutofWater, Yastreblyansky, jan4insight, worldlotus, ladypockt, elwior, carolyn urban, brasilaaron, ericlewis0, JayDean, roses, MKSinSA, susanWAstate, RonV, OLinda, greenbird, petulans, citisven, Wreck Smurfy, doroma, Gooserock, Setsuna Mudo, phonegery, Lorikeet, 2thanks, too many people, Meteor Blades, RLMiller, drewshaw, TBug, Pluto, kirbybruno, psnyder, Steveningen, the fan man, blue jersey mom, Gowrie Gal, dharmafarmer, royce, NYmom, MadMs, Zinman, Simplify, Moderation, markthshark, nailbender, Margd, ChemBob, glitterscale, Orinoco, JimWilson, ktar7582, bibble, pixxer, ranger995, yet another liberal, vacantlook, muddy boots, glorificus, mahakali overdrive, frisco, JanL, SolarMom, Odysseus, tb92, Matt Z, Chaddiwicker, Bush Bites, ExStr8, CS11, Ree Zen, WarrenS, juliesie, DamselleFly, high uintas, tgypsy, mr crabby, cfk, JanG, joynow, Wee Mama, Ignacio Magaloni, peachcreek, wayoutinthestix, bnasley, mythatsme, Trotskyrepublican, dRefractor, Mindful Nature, dotsright, Julie Gulden, WheninRome, Bule Betawi, Lujane, deepeco, buckstop, ORDem, YucatanMan, bronte17, Pam from Calif, SoCalSal, eeff, koNko, Creosote, Pat K California, antirove, radarlady, jimstaro, marykk, missLotus, RhodaA, marleycat, Crashing Vor, nzanne, emmasnacker, RunawayRose, Tyto Alba, rapala, blue71340, MartyM, tle, SingerInTheChoir, jfromga, kkjohnson, BMarshall, reddbierd, PeterHug, 207wickedgood, Catte Nappe, myboo, Gottlieb, LookingUp, afox, FarWestGirl, nickrud, gatorcog, Joieau, SCFrog, Alma, Barbara Marquardt, LaughingPlanet, Sanuk, OpherGopher, GreyHawk, EricS, Ocelopotamus, mikeconwell, ColoTim, Hedwig, Xapulin, CA Nana, Floande, Temmoku, lcrp, Milly Watt, fumie, Agathena
  •  Thanks for giving us a report (46+ / 0-)

    I was wondering how this went...I hope you had a very friendly audience.

    I had to chuckle at this but it is very sad for the planet:

    I was totally embarrassed at one point in the meeting when the head of the committee asked those of us from the US if there was anything we could do about the Republicans
    I don't know why some refuse to believe climate change is real. I know a lot of people are distracted by the economy and they are focused on getting by. But to outright refuse to believe as the Republicans is odd. I think it is just cover because they are in the pockets of big oil..

    At this point, far more people have now been arrested for protesting Wall Street's mortgage fraud crimes than have been for committing and presiding over them.

    by joedemocrat on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:37:22 PM PST

  •  hey bbif! I didn't realize that you'd already (22+ / 0-)

    presented at the UN!  I missed the MM post where you mentioned it a couple weeks ago (I just peeked at your previous diaries to see if I missed a more detailed account).  That must have been so awesome!  I can't wait to read more about it!

    And of course, this diary is great, too!  I had not heard about the initiative that Clinton is leading.  Good for her, and thanks for bringing it to our attention!

    "The death penalty is never about the criminal. They've already done their worst. The question is always "will we join them"?" - jlynne

    by Hopeful Skeptic on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:40:20 PM PST

  •  I just "herd" a real good one , (19+ / 0-)

    Vegetarians are pro enslaving/abusing farm workers .

    Never heard that one before yesterday , its an instant classic for me .

    Free the poor downtrodden/mistreated/underpaid farm workers by eating meat .  

    Whats the latest on mad cow / Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease ?

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:46:57 PM PST

  •  The whole world is watching... (28+ / 0-)

    ...with bated breath, hoping and praying that we will rise up, for a change, and crush the Republicans in November, for justice and peace, to save the planet.

    And it's all on us, whether the Party helps us "enough", or likes it or wants it or not, to bring forward the most viable candidates that we can from the grassroots for the primaries, and to mobilize the electorate to select them, rather than the less optimal candidates often put forward by the Party establishment.

    This is a critical moment, that will determine the field for November.

    Right now is our chance, to bring the kind of better Democrats that can overcome cynical defeatism and demoralization, to inspire the kind of massive electoral uprising that will be necessary to overwhelm the point-shaving dirty tricks and voter suppression tactics of the right, as well as the electoral boycott and splitting sentiments coming from the purported left, going into November.

    Seize the Time!

    Seize the Power!

    Bring the Better Democrats!

    All Out for the Primaries and November!

    Photobucket

     

    Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle.

    by Radical def on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:47:19 PM PST

  •  I too want to hear more about your UN trip (18+ / 0-)

    Cutting out breakfast meats (which tend to be high in fat) is good for kids, ecosystems and the climate. If people saw how sausage is made, they wouldn't eat it.

    look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

    by FishOutofWater on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:51:16 PM PST

  •  Just finished watching the video. (16+ / 0-)

    I knew livestock was a problem but had no idea it was such a big component.  Thanks so much for posting this and for providing a little positive news on the climate change front.  I'm not a scientist but I'm trying to work on this issue from the psychological perspective.   The issue needs to go viral in the public's mind and then pressure needs to be applied to top government officials for action.  We need a WWII type of effort in this country to deal with this but it won't happen without a public groundswell to demand it.   I was just researching how the US mobilized during WWII and it was amazing.  We can do it again.  

     I'm going to hot list this diary for further research.  Thanks again!

    If we really want to straighten out all this crap we need to really think about shit!

    by John Crapper on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:52:26 PM PST

  •  Thanks bb. So much more is needed but at least (8+ / 0-)

    it's encouraging to see the US at least talking about doing something. Hopefully it is more than just talk but I will be surprised if this turns out to be anything that makes any real difference. Even under normal circumstances any real developments leading to stopping climate change would be difficult but in today's political climate I'd say any significant programs would be DOA in the legislature. I give you a heartfelt thanks and respect for taking on the herculean task of promoting the reduction of livestock consumption. You must have the heart of a bull.

    Just give me some truth. John Lennon--- OWS------Too Big To Fail

    by burnt out on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 05:57:57 PM PST

  •  I have a few questions. (0+ / 0-)

    Please watch this lecture and tell me if what she says is true:

    I just watched this the other day and had a personal epiphany based on what I've actually experienced in the past 3 1/2 yrs.  

    I'm composing a diary on it and will post in the near future.

    But I'd ask you to address some things honestly if you can.

    1. Is or has the green agenda become a vehicle by which we will be de-industrialized?

    2. Are we losing private property rights by an unelected oligarchy through the not ratified "executive agreement" of Agenda 21?

    3. Are we being forced into urban "prison" complexes whereby we can be controlled, behaviorally modified (like Pavlov's dogs) and surveilled from cradle to grave?

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:01:19 PM PST

    •  ... (4+ / 0-)

      "Human-induced Global Warming" denier ?

      They aim to get people out of their private suburban residences and cars, and warehouse them in these large metro areas. These areas will also house California’s large immigrant population, including illegal immigrants.
      ???

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:45:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Get your tin foil hat on (7+ / 0-)

        its going to be a whacky ride !!!

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:49:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you accusing me of something because (0+ / 0-)

          I asked some honest questions based on a lecture I saw?

          Is this the "Delphi Technique" whereby someone is publicly ridiculed?  (Something that was pointed out in the lecture, by the way)

          You see, I've been through hell and back in the last 3-1/2 yrs after the company I worked for went bankrupt.  I was within weeks of being homeless and if it weren't for the gracious friends here, I would have become one.

          All the public monies for housing, etc were only available in the city of Buffalo and a select few "suburbs".  I didn't understand it at the time, why was where I lived "not covered"?  This lecture gave an answer and I seriously would like to know if the diarist can explain it to me.

          That lecture raised a lot of questions and put pieces into place that I never saw before.  

          Is it true?

          Are these questions "tin foily"???  I hope not because if you play the labeling game then you only want to manipulate public opinion and ignore my questions in the process, leaving them unanswered.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:01:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wasn't talking about you . (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea, YucatanMan, ozsea1

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:14:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Labeling game (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alizard, YucatanMan, bronte17, A Siegel

            Is the 'labeling game' part of Koire's lecture? I ask because I found it curious that she named her group 'Democrats against UN 21' and is always described as a 'liberal Democrat' but she doesn't talk to Democratic or liberal groups, just Tea Party, Right Wing and Conspiracy groups.

            Personally, I'm not inclined to watch an hour and a half video of a Tea Party meeting. Do you think you could give a summary of the points rather than asking questions without context?

            •  Actually she has a website and book: (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              2020adam

              http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/...

              She describes herself as a lifelong registered Liberal Democrat, Feminist and Lesbian. She's a forensic Commercial Real Estate Appraiser (for eminent domain purposes) whom is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and anti-war.

              She tries to break the false paradigm of "red vs blue".

              She talks about Planning Development and how if you live in a rural area you will be forced into urban human "habitat" areas with millions of square miles in America being designated as completely off limits to any of us. (Which I just saw on Animal Planet last night)

              She talks about how the green movement has been co-opted into taking our taxes for "urban redevelopment" whereby they take private property and give it to special private corporate interests. (Which I've witnessed here in NY personally)

              She talks about ICLEI (International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives) whereby we are losing our water rights, etc, etc, etc. You can't store rainwater, etc. I didn't believe it and did a search. On 7-19-10 Obama's Executive Order #13547 does just that, the government just nationalized our entire natural water systems.

              She talks about the "key terms" used: Sustainability, Stewardship, Smart Growth, etc, etc.

              She went over so many things, I was shocked and dumbfounded.  I'm still trying to process all the information.  

              Seriously, she may be talking to a bunch of "tea party" people, but you don't see or hear them at all, its only her telling them what's been going on since 1991.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:35:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, you are promoting this conspiracy garbage? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bronte17, ozsea1, A Siegel

                The way you have "asked questions about it" and carried on about "Obama nationalizing our water systems" sounds exactly like the panic over "Communists fluoridating our water!" in the 1950s.

                Frankly, this entire bit is getting very close to troll territory -- promoting paranoid Tea Party and "The UN Will Get Us!" conspiracies by "asking questions about how legit it is, then arguing the case."

                What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                by YucatanMan on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:17:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I was asked to summarize what she talked (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  207wickedgood

                  about.

                  She says nothing about water fluoridation.

                  You've created a red herring and have attacked it saying I'm promoting it and/or by asking the questions, I somehow support what was said.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 05:33:30 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Oh sheesh... so a *commercial real estate* person (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ozsea1, Hopeful Skeptic, A Siegel

                hits some quasi-truthiness points and you go ballistic?

                Urban redevelopment has not been co-opted by any green movement. If anything, development has been co-opted for too long by the wealthy buddies of urban councils and planning commissions. And eminent domain and expropriation of property hasn't been done by the green movement. You need to talk to Donald Trump and his buddies like Mitt Romney to get a handle on "how to cheat and dump grandma out of her home."

                 But, yes, the greenies amongst us realize that living in cities doesn't have to involve squalor and noise and grime and poverty. Nothing wrong with working to improve urban areas.

                Some of us are urban animals and we love cities.

                And, no, my gawd NO!, millions and millions of acres of the US have not and are not being stolen from you by Obama so he can round you up and force you to go live in the colorful urban city environs. My gawd...

                As for your silly question above about applying for housing and "why didn't the housing agency have some nice suburban housing like you are accustomed to freely available for you?"

                Well... free or reduced housing doesn't grow on trees you know. And suburban housing is oftentimes far more expensive and out of the district where the housing aid offices operate. They can't go out of their region or operational district. Beggars can't be choosers you know. And if nothing else... this is a very good reason to maintain the housing stock of our cities. There is nothing wrong with much of our urban housing if we would just clean it up a little and retrofit it with insulation and green energy.

                Plus the suburbs don't always have public transportation or public facilities for citizens to use. You would have to have your own automobile and other expense-related items in order to sustain suburban housing. Autos are expensive for a poor person. You might have to give it up and go cold turkey on the public bus.


                One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                ~Jean Richepin
                Bread & Roses

                by bronte17 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:38:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  She works for the State of California. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  207wickedgood

                  Or so I was led to believe.

                  Seriously, it's not about Obama, he's just continuing what each president has done since Bush I. The policies of Agenda 21.

                  Are millions of acres of land being deemed off limits to Americans through "sustainable development? Are people being denied the use of their own property? Are rural lands and farms being shut down for animal use?

                  Yes, and I just found this out because of her lecture.

                  Was Agenda 21 ever ratified by our Congress? Or did our presidents say, "it's an executive agreement" that didn't need to be? Yes.

                  Sound familiar? Yep, ACTA.

                  As for this:

                  As for your silly question above about applying for housing and "why didn't the housing agency have some nice suburban housing like you are accustomed to freely available for you?"
                  Hon, read my old diaries. You'll see that my questions are not "silly" nor inappropriate.  Have you ever been homeless? Have you?  Have you ever been given hope that was completely fabricated and predicated on you WHERE you live?

                  Help is only available to urban dwellers.  The only thing that crosses all barriers, food stamps.

                  And it seems you are the one going ballistic here in the rest of your rant. I guess there is truth in my questions.

                  Here in Buffalo, where I live there is very little "public transportation and what is here is garbage a never ending black hole sucking up scarce resources because of the "public-private partnerships". the director of the NFTA gets paid over $170,000 a year. They raise the prices, cut the services, routes and hours and they still get salary increases.

                  As for this:

                  Autos are expensive for a poor person. You might have to give it up and go cold turkey on the public bus.
                  Hon, if I gave up my 20 yr old car, I couldn't get to work (there aren't buses where I live) at the one goddamn job I was offered in over 2 yrs (after being a manager for 10+yrs), that job...a fucking cashier in a parking garage, oh wait, I'm a Rental Sales Agent, YAHOOOO, making less than I was 30 yrs ago as a cashier in High School.

                  And I ask, why's that again? Has our country been intentionally de-industrialized?

                  Looks like it to me.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 06:13:26 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you... or that *commercial real estate* person (0+ / 0-)

                    do either of you have any clue about land management? About sustainable agricultural practices? About ag-economics?

                    And you are bitching about farm land being taken over by animal use? What are you... a teabaggin' vegetarian? I presume you are talking about CAFOs? And the only reason the commercial real estate person probably even brings that up is because living next to hog farms seriously diminishes the value of property. People want their mini-mansions and their 10 acre estates, but they don't want the activities of the farmers next to them. The same farmers who support the local communities with sustainable food and the same farmers whose family have been there for generations. But, the newbie McMansion folks want their bucolic ambiance undisturbed by reality. And they want it now.

                    And you do realize that many communities have wised up to the egregious slash-and-burn activities of developers and corporations. With the internet, it is now easier for the people of communities to fight back and take back some control of perimeters of their living spaces.

                    Do you have any clue about the lack of proper infrastructure that developers skimp on? Have you ever seen the school yards that have fecal waste and tampons and any other number of waste products bubbling up from overworked shoddy suburban sewer systems? Too many people, not enough capacity.

                    As for your hatred toward cities not providing you with suburban housing... why do you not direct your blame at the suburb itself? Why do you think the city core... the same city core which is NOT supported by that suburban tax base because you suburban people fled out to your lily-white perfect enclaves to escape that same city. WHY do you expect the people of THE CITY to support your ass out there in your little perfect SUBURBAN world?

                    You need to go to your SUBURBAN city council and ask them why they don't have funding to help you. And then wait for either (1) the holier-than-thou lecture that tells you what a piece of shit you are for becoming poor and underemployed and that you need to pray louder or (2) laughing their ass off at your needy question.

                    Seriously. Why do you expect PEOPLE of THE CITY to give you their limited funds so that you can live OUTSIDE THEIR CITY in your SUBURBAN enclave? Go ask YOUR suburban community for THEIR support. And then get ready for the live-and-learn aspect of the consequences of running away from real community.

                    And if you have no public transportation or lack of sufficient funding, it is because the Republican rings of influence will not fund it. And that $170k salary for the director is not out of whack with the peers of other enterprises that manage our daily activities.

                    You just want to focus on that job because it is a public sector job that manages public facilities. Underfunded facilities, but that is not the manager's fault. And if you think that putting a private manager in charge will fix it, you are wrong. Not to mention the fact that the salary will exponentially increase for that private manager. And your taxpayer-bought public facilities will be sold off for pennies on the dollar to the corrupt friends of the private manager.

                    Finally... what the hell? Are you blaming "Agenda 21" for the deindustrialization of the US? Seriously?

                    There are so many peripheries of international interactions and our relationships. The US military forced its way into many countries by trading away our economic base here at home... and this happened over half a century's time. The self-centered corporations see no national honor or responsibility to the nation-state. The nation is a quaint by-product of yesteryears in their eyes. Human husbandry is what is left for the nation-state. And the church gets to pick over the bones.

                    But, to blame Agenda 21 is loony territory.


                    One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                    ~Jean Richepin
                    Bread & Roses

                    by bronte17 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 08:16:17 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Wow, you addressed nothing I stated, thanks (0+ / 0-)

                      It's not urbanites versus suburbanites.  It's about how the State and Federal Grants are appropriated locally. Why are city dwellers eligible and I'm not?

                      If you meet certain economic criteria, like the food stamp program then why can't someone living in what they deem a "suburb" get help?

                      FYI, the area I live in is all two-family or larger, there aren't any "McMansions" here.

                      I have no hatred for cities, I lived in Buffalo for over 12 yrs, and moved into an apartment (in a suburb) where I split the costs of living with roommates for another 15 yrs.  I was then forced back into Buffalo where my car was broken into then my apartment. The police response, "You really want to file a report?" They acted like I was wasting their precious time.

                      I begrudgingly moved into a duplex (for my own safety) that was only 2 miles from where I worked, 5 yrs ago, only to have the damn company go bankrupt less than 2 yrs later and put me out of a job. Sadly for me, it's deemed a "suburb".

                      Read this article just from 2 weeks ago here in Buffalo:

                      Riders speak out against NFTA cuts

                      the NFTA had a "top-heavy administration; it is overstaffed with managers," and suggested that the number of administrators and their salaries could be reduced instead of reducing services or raising fares.

                      -cut-

                      Lockport Alderwoman Anne E. McCaffrey said it would be "devastating."

                      "It would reduce the quality of life and stifle regional growth," said McCaffrey, who instead preferred a modest fare increase to the loss of bus service.

                      Carl Slenk of Niagara Falls said the cuts proposed in Niagara County were "disproportional in comparison with Buffalo."

                      As for this:
                      There are so many peripheries of international interactions and our relationships. The US military forced its way into many countries by trading away our economic base here at home... and this happened over half a century's time.
                      I don't see it that way at all, I see our military going into countries to protect the profits of corporations.  

                      And as for this:

                      The self-centered corporations see no national honor or responsibility to the nation-state. The nation is a quaint by-product of yesteryears in their eyes.
                      Agreed 100%.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:01:48 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You seem to have a black & white view of the world (0+ / 0-)

                        So, while I may provide one example for you, it is not the only answer to a complex issue.

                        Buffalo is a hellhole... I will give you that. I'm not quite sure of its claim to fame... i.e. what industries sustained it and provided the backbone for development of the city. What I know of Buffalo was gained in passing through... the apartment buildings look like prisons and the damn potholes are so big they could have swallowed my car.

                        Buffalo is a very sick city. Perhaps you should make every attempt to move away. And I know that is easier said than done.

                        But, you cannot view the entire world through the lens of the negativity emanating from Buffalo. And to blame the Rio Summit with all the toils and troubles of the world is simplistic and childlike. It does not begin to alleviate the problems that must be surmounted.


                        One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                        ~Jean Richepin
                        Bread & Roses

                        by bronte17 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:23:58 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And you are not aswering the question...you are (0+ / 0-)

                          attacking me personally, thanks...

                          Buffalo is a beautiful city and you may believe it's "emanating negativity" then you are the one with the "child-like" views, not me.  We get 80% of the available sunshine each year and I love the change of seasons.

                          It's rich history can be traced back before the American Revolution.  It was one of the contenders to be the capital of the Nation.

                          I must get to work, have a good day.

                          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                          by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:59:50 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  ah... so your city is not "so bad" after all (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            New Rule

                            once a stranger disses it.  

                            Whatever it takes.

                            There is a symbiotic relationship between all manner of our organisms and communities.

                            That it will take a great deal of pain for the suburbanites to understand those relationships is a sad testament to their approach to life.


                            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                            ~Jean Richepin
                            Bread & Roses

                            by bronte17 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 12:40:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow, you arrogant elitist.... (0+ / 0-)

                            "it will take a great deal of pain for the suburbanites to understand..."

                            So, you are now answering my questions in the affirmative, got it,  thanks for the truth.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:47:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Who's the elitist Burby? (0+ / 0-)

                            Project much?

                            You flee out to your conservative manipulative redneck burbs without a care about the infrastructure and institutions left behind because a little too much color might be found here and there. And then you whine when the unsustainable selfish bubble bursts.

                            I'm hardcore about protecting cities and their environs. Damn straight. The whiny clingy burbs are too self-centered for me. Why the hell you and your Luntz handlers associate cities with "elitism" is sick.


                            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                            ~Jean Richepin
                            Bread & Roses

                            by bronte17 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 05:08:53 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Orwellian doublespeak and assumptive personal (0+ / 0-)

                            attacks aren't a legitimate position.

                            Your zealotry and bigotry have blinded you.  I'm nothing close to being a "redneck".  How many transgendered women could ever be???

                            I haven't fled anything. I moved into an area that was safer and within walking distance of my job, so evil and selfish of me to want to walk to work and save the planet. Only to find out (through the lecture I linked above) that the green policies I supported were being used to enslave me.

                            Where I live it's called the Village of Blasdell, founded in 1896.  Today you elitists call it a "suburb" to justify your theft of our limited resources so that your corporate croanies can "revitalize" slums and drug & crime infested "blighted urban redevelopment zones" that you allowed to fall into disrepair so your buddies in the 80's, 90's & 2000 could get into property-flipping.

                            As flipping occurs more frequently in a community, the total cost of living there can rise substantially, eventually forcing current residents to relocate, specifically less affluent younger and older people.
                            I'm starting to see it for what it is and you don't want anyone to see that truth. Such hypocrisy breed by the divide and conquer techniques used throughout history.

                            You want to fix the problem then how about facing the facts first?

                            In 2006, the Department of Housing and Urban Development created regulations regarding predatory flipping within Federal Housing Administration (FHA) single-family mortgage insurance. The time requirement for owning a property was greater than 90 days between purchase and sale dates to qualify for FHA-insured mortgage financing. This requirement was greatly relaxed in January 2010, and the 90-day holding period was all but eliminated.
                            Nope it can't be about the facts can it? We controlled all elected positions in our Federal Government and "flipping" controls were eliminated, perfect planned failure to justify your Hegelian dialectic of "problem, reaction, solution."

                            Oh, wait, I'm too stupid to understand all this, I forgot...because I'm a "suburbanite"...UUGGGHHH!!!!

                            You want to protect your "urban environ" and get people to move back, then you work on making the property taxes low enough that someone living on minimum wage can pay them and make damn sure there is enough land for them to grow their own gardens so they are not beholden to anyone.

                            Stop stealing and then wasting our limited resources on pipe dreams that further enrich your 1%! You do know in these "public/private partnerships" the builders of you pack-n-stack redevelopment schemes are exempt from EPA regulations, right? How's that square with "saving the environment" again????

                            Stop policies that destroy the familial unit (drug laws) and add to the degradation of our communities.

                            Stop creating victims by withholding public funds from those that actually need them because of where they live.

                            How about our collective resources be funneled into empowering people to be self-sufficient? Wait, then your authoritarian control mechanisms won't work, now will they???

                            Enough of this bullshit, have a good life!

                             

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 09:29:01 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Property flipping is *not* a new phenomenon (0+ / 0-)

                            I've been dealing in real estate since the early 80s. There's not that much new under the sun other than the crash was to-the-bone-crushing. But, predictable by many except the George W "sElected-by-the-RATS" Bush cabal. But even that crowd of bottom-suckers got out of Dodge a year before the election. Many of them with the FBI on their heels.

                            Furthermore, the bubble market of 2006 and those sky-high prices... as well as the no-document predatory scum calling themselves "loan officers, mortgage brokers" or whatever lending ridiculous amounts of money on a home was NOT the same market of 2010.

                            Not even.

                            And just exactly who is involved with those private-public entities? The Koch Brothers. And any number of Republican scum whose life work is spent stealing the energy and wages and pensions and public wealth of communities and the rest of us.

                            The Chamber of Commerce. The National Board of Realtors. The Appraisers board. The Home Builders Association. ALL of them are hardcore Republican operatives. Yeah, there are innocent people who refuse to listen and join up and spend lots of money on dues, but those boards represent a sickness in this country. They do not represent the best for the US or for us.

                            You've got your teabags pulled over your eyes and ears so far that you can't see straight. And you don't want to listen.

                            You came in here quoting conspiracy theories and you're still spitting the crap out.


                            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                            ~Jean Richepin
                            Bread & Roses

                            by bronte17 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 07:13:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll listen if you'll stop labeling me, so far (0+ / 0-)

                            you've spewed political talking points that have no bearing on what I've personally experienced.

                            You've created a false dichotomy between urban and suburban and then used it to bash me over the head with it, claiming and stating falsities about what I stand for, believe in or ACTUALLY how I live.

                            You say the questions I posted are CT, how's that possible in light of the limited (and continuing) research that I done over the past few days because of what was said in that lecture? So far, most of it appears to be true from what I've gathered.

                            It's one thing to live green, which I do my personal best at, in fact, my carbon footprint is well below the average American (and that includes driving my 20 yr old Volvo that gets crappy mpg's).

                            Using this Calculator from the Nature Conservancy my footprint is 19 versus the Average American at 27.

                            http://www.nature.org/...

                            And, btw, I supported their efforts for years with donations (when I had a living wage job), as I did with Green Peace, the SPCA and the NRDC.  I buy locally grown foods (as much as I can afford), I buy (subsidize) wind energy through my NYSEG electric bill. I walk where I can, I never fly, I keep my heat at 65 degrees, I put plastic on my windows, I recycle as much as I can but NOOOOOOOOOooooo I'm a teabagger!

                            Is it teabaggery to want the truth? What are the results of these public policies? Why am I worse off today than I was just 5 yrs ago? Is it all BushCo's fault? I think not.

                            That's all you've accused me of here to ignore and belittle honest discussion that I thought I could get. Little did I know what a hornets nest of debauchery and pure hatred this topic has become. Even from the diarist herself!

                            That damn lecture said a lot of things. I've been fact checking against published (and readily available) UN Agenda 21 plans and my beloved "green movement".

                            So many things have come together, like I stated previously, a good friend not being able to actually "go green",  the banning of primatene mist (the only asthma product that works for me), the mpg's of "newer better cars", the skyrocketing costs just to survive.

                            In light of published quotes from Kofi Annan that tells me I shouldn't fight globalization because it's like fighting gravity.  The WTO, GATT and NAFTA have intentionally de-industrialized this nation, impoverished the Haitians, the Mexicans and millions more while the corporations get a free ride, make their own "international rules" that we are then forced to accept or pay billions in "fines".

                            The "executive agreements" that have become "vogue" like the most recent, ACTA!

                            How can there be any social justice when the powers that be are intentionally lowering our standards of living? Must I die sooner "to save the planet", so that the select few "public/private partnerships" that have become institutionalized can be absolved of EPA regulations for "smart growth" but I can't?

                            Where's the equity under law in all this????

                            It's insanity and your false labeling of me as teabagger and a suburbanite insults and offends me to my very core!

                            UGHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 06:52:35 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As for your stand on property flipping (0+ / 0-)
                            Property flipping is not a new phenomenon...
                            I've been dealing in real estate since the early 80s. There's not that much new under the sun other than the crash was to-the-bone-crushing. But, predictable...
                            THAT'S THE DAMN POINT.  How do these policies help any community or our country as a whole? OR is it the intent of these policies to bankrupt us to make us more "pliable", willing to accept serfdom again????

                            And you blame Bush, nope the fault lays squarely on Alan Greenspan's shoulders:

                            http://www.youtube.com/...

                            http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

                            The former Federal Reserve chairman, Alan Greenspan, has conceded that the global financial crisis has exposed a "mistake" in the free market ideology which guided his 18-year stewardship of US monetary policy.

                            A long-time cheerleader for deregulation, Greenspan admitted to a congressional committee yesterday that he had been "partially wrong" in his hands-off approach towards the banking industry and that the credit crunch had left him in a state of shocked disbelief. "I have found a flaw," said Greenspan, referring to his economic philosophy. "I don't know how significant or permanent it is. But I have been very distressed by that fact."

                            He was re-appointed by Clinton and Greenspan's prodigy, Bernake, was re-appointed by Obama.

                            How are we any better off again? Both parties are to blame for this.  Did our democrats re-regulate the banks or re-institute Glass-Steagall when we gave them total control? NOPE.

                            Did our democrats protect poor Americans when they voted for the Bankruptcy reform Acts of 2001 & 2005??? NOPE & NOPE!

                            http://www.commondreams.org/...

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            Did those "reforms" actually increase foreclosures? YEP!

                            Where's the difference again between our party and the republicans again?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 07:49:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are transgender and a teabagger? (0+ / 0-)

                            Quoting conspiracy theories like this and supporting Republican lies and blaming Democrats for this housing crash and the ills of the suburbs.

                            Your anger may be understandable, but your hatred is misdirected.

                            I dunno where you're coming from. Gonna have to read through your comments in this diary again... as a whole... and see who and what you are coming from. Because you immediately led out with a conspiracy theory and placed it front and center at the beginning of this diary. When I get the time to review... it's not like I have so much of it to waste.


                            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                            ~Jean Richepin
                            Bread & Roses

                            by bronte17 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 07:40:52 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I'm a woman. I do not define or live by (0+ / 0-)

                            your imposed labeling. Who's seeing the world in only black and white and has been all along here? It wasn't me.

                            You've finally said something true here:

                            I dunno where you're coming from.
                            I placed my questions "front and center" to go to the "horse's mouth" not it's "ass" (and I'm not calling the diarist a horse or any part there of).

                            Someone whom works with and supports the UN's agenda should know the truth and be aware of what is being said AND should be able to dissuade me of any false beliefs or impressions.  She should have been able to point me in the "correct" direction for answers, she didn't.

                            Her only response to me was a threat that was recc'd by others and then she HR'd me.

                            Not once answering my direction questions to her, nothing, nada, zilch....that leaves me with what was described in the lecture as the "Delphi Technique" AS the only answer here.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 07:14:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Quickly to answer you because I have work to do (0+ / 0-)

                            First of all, the diarist always has the right to request that people follow the rules here and the diarist can decided whether they want their diary to be a hatefest free-for-all with knock 'em down pugilist comments or whether they want to proceed with some decorum.

                            Your first comment was an attack and it was filled with incorrect and rightwing idiocy. Now, you may not know that because you are not fully familiar with the depth of the subjects you approached. So, you need to lay off with the intensity and absolutes and listen and grow a little during your interactions here.

                            There is academic work out there on the various cities that do not incorporate their surrounding townships. There is a lot of information of which you are not aware. You need to read more and flame, as well as blame, less.

                            You've bought into the teabagger bullshit though.


                            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                            ~Jean Richepin
                            Bread & Roses

                            by bronte17 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 09:48:55 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Seriously? I "attacked" by asking questions? (0+ / 0-)

                            Having been here almost 8 yrs, questions were never considered attacks.

                            Three simple questions qualified and quantified without malice.  The overreactions, the wild false accusations, the pure hatred caused by those questions tells me something, and it ain't pretty.

                            And why do you keep labeling it "teabagger bullshit"? Is this labeling meant to stop anyone from questioning? As I did?

                            What I've read and read and read in the last 5 days brought out more questions that must be answered.

                            I've found the answers and I don't like what I'm finding.  

                            Review my replies here, see my legitimate concerns, see the answers I've found, tell me I'm attacking anyone for finding out truths that have been hidden from most of us.

                            As I said, I was going to write a diary on what I'm learning. Clearly the lines have been drawn and the troops are dug in, little did I know.

                            I do my research and share my findings with friends, family and co-workers, I won't do it here...thanks for making that perfectly clear.

                            It's people like you that need to this:

                            listen and grow a little during your interactions here.

                            I'm not the enemy.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 01:12:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  kthxbai. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                samanthab

                No, the President isn't "nationalizing our entire natural water system". Cite a single quote from the order that supports anything you're saying.

                Until then, HR'd for playing around with climate change denialism.

                •  Where did I say anything about denying (0+ / 0-)

                  climate change? So, you've created a straw argument, claimed I supported it and then used it to justify an HR...

                  Thanks.

                  Did the president's executive order just grant himself authority to control water for sustainable development?

                  Yes or no.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 06:57:41 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no. (0+ / 0-)

                    quote it or it's still bullshit.

                    •  Here... (0+ / 0-)

                      Page #3 of executive order #13547:

                      The link is provided above.

                      This order adopts the recommendations of the Interagency Ocean Policy Task Force, except where otherwise provided in this order, and directs executive agencies to implement those recommendations under the guidance of a National Ocean Council.

                      (i) protect, maintain, and restore the health and biological diversity of ocean, coastal, and Great Lakes ecosystems and resources;
                      (ii) improve the resiliency of ocean, coastal, and Great Lakes ecosystems, communities, and economies;
                      (iii) bolster the conservation and sustainable uses of land in ways that will improve the health of ocean, coastal, and Great Lakes ecosystems;
                      (iv) use the best available science and knowledge to inform decisions affecting the ocean, our coasts, and the Great Lakes, and enhance humanity’s capacity

                      He then creates a new federal agency to enforce this.

                      Say whatever you like, it sounds to me like he just took over all waters in and around the US.  We must now go through this newly created agency and following it's orders if we wish to live and/or use any of it.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:41:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Water harvesting is illegal in many Western (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, Hopeful Skeptic

                states because of antiquated water rights. Not because of a nefarious plot by international communists.

                As others have said already, this is a conspiracy theory that walks hand in hand with the NWO master theory.

          •  You want to know why money was only available (8+ / 0-)

            in center cities and not in suburbs, generally speaking?

            Because for many years, only major cities (usually) and city centers have had Democratic majorities which run programs to distribute such funds.

            Suburbs have recently been the poaching grounds of conservative Republicans who believe you should be taking care of yourself. In their minds, if you are not working hard, then it is all your fault.

            Are you serious that this video "put pieces into place?"  No way.  It is the most common type of scapegoating and scare tactics there are.

            And having seen stuff like this for a long time, I'm here to tell you they have scarcely changed their tune in decades and decades. It is pure dirty energy, oil industry, and big finance propaganda.

            She's trying to sell books.  She's a "black helicopter conspiracy nut."  She's a huckster.

            What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

            by YucatanMan on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:56:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exurbs have become conservative poaching grounds. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan

              first wave American suburbs have become minority-dominated as white flight has reversed and urban housing prices have shot through the roof. Otherwise, yeah, absolutely. I'm in complete agreement.

              •  True from what I'm seeing. My niece grew (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan

                up in the grew up in the far suburbs of Philly, but she and most of her friends have settled in the city. She and her fiance are actually looking to buy a house there and raise their kids there. My sons, too, are gravitating toward the city.

                It's quite a reversal from when my husband and I were first married.

            •  Okay, then why does 90% of all the funds come (0+ / 0-)

              from State and Federal Grants? Not the community itself? Why can't the State or Federal gov't stipulate that funds go to anyone meeting certain criteria?

              If I'm to understand this better, you're claiming that it's because those communities refused the funding because they might be republican controlled? If this were true, then why do people get food stamps no matter where they live?

              This makes no sense.  You can't be denied food stamps but you can be denied help for your rent if you live in a "suburb"??? What good will food stamps do anyone if they are homeless, you can't cook the food you buy, you can't prepare the food you buy...

              As for this:

              Are you serious that this video "put pieces into place?"
              Yes, I'm processing all the information still but I had a good friend who bought a home that had a stream running through it, less than 75 feet from the house. He wanted to "go green" and put in a water turbine and create his own electricity. He innocently called the township to see if he needed anything and was told he couldn't do it without submitting an ecological impact study. That "study" would cost him well over $200,000 and 5 yrs of waiting, he didn't do it.

              There's more I am putting together. I was considering writing a diary on it...with the responses here today, that's not going to happen.

              As for this:

              Suburbs have recently been the poaching grounds of conservative Republicans who believe you should be taking care of yourself
              I don't understand how the suburbs are being poached, could you elaborate a bit?

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 07:16:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Public housing money (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea

            I can give you the explanation for why it's limited largely to inner city urban areas. It's called NIMBY - not in my back yard.  The "nicer" suburbs and semi-rural areas do not want any of "those" kinds of people who need government or welfare support in their communities.

            from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

            by Catte Nappe on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 07:46:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Nope, not that I'm aware of... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        207wickedgood

        that's a strawman argument.

        Global warming is real, ask me, I live in Buffalo and in my 30 yrs living here we've never had a winter like this one we are in...never...

        We've had 3 "snow storms"...and I laugh because we haven't gotten more than 10 inches of snow in any of them...We've always had snow on the ground from November to March...not this year...

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:51:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wasn't talking about you x 2 . (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea, YucatanMan, ozsea1

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:15:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  And you think that efforts to promote (6+ / 0-)

          "smart growth" and "intelligent land use planning" are a George Soros-backed UN conspiracy to control your lives, warehouse people, strip property rights, and generally destroy democracy in general?

          Because that's what the fear mongers like Rosa Koire and the Tea Party are selling.  Tea Party rabble-rousers have disrupted planning meetings around the country shouting non-sense about their property rights in ordinary cases about ordinary run-of-the-mill urban planning.

          Is asking people to drive cars which pollute less or contribute less CO2 to the atmosphere a "Green Mask conspiracy" to strip you of your "property right" to drive whatever car you damn well chose?  

          Or is it just a reasonable step that a planet with over Seven Billion people, all of whom seem to want autos, takes to stay habitable?  

           Hmm.....

          What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

          by YucatanMan on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 11:10:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmmm... your strawmen arguments (0+ / 0-)

            don't work with me.

            She said nothing about George Soros, a lot about the UN and Agenda 21.

            I better be able to, what did you say:

            to drive whatever car you damn well chose?  
            If I can't then I'll ask you this, are we free or not? Clearly your answer is we are not.

            Where did anyone say anything about not driving greener cars? I had a 1983 Dodge Omni that got 43 mpg.  Today, the average car gets what 22 mpg.  Why's that again?  The European's have cars that get 60 mpg.  We are offered hybrids that are an ecological disaster in the making (the batteries), just for $50,000 you can be put on a year waiting list for a Prius that will get maybe 40 mpg, that's 5 times the cost of the Dodge Omni.

            As for this:

            Tea Party rabble-rousers have disrupted planning meetings around the country shouting non-sense about their property rights in ordinary cases about ordinary run-of-the-mill urban planning.
            I've been doing the research between my shifts the last couple of days, trying to find out if what she said was true...and what you call "run of the mill urban planning" is anything but.  

            Those meetings, if you are allowed in them, the agenda is already set and you have no right to say anything, they tell you what they are going to do with your tax dollars, period. She described it as the "Delphi Technique."

            Again, is/has the green movement been co-opted to destroy the competition and give public funds to private corporations? Yep, here in Buffalo, Bass Pro was given tax breaks, etc, etc, etc and it wasn't enough and they backed out... Does Walmart get 5, 10 or 20 yr tax break deals? Yep.  The Walmart that was less than 3/10th's of a mile from my apartment closed and moved 6 miles into another community because their tax break deal ended, the new one they got is good for 20 yrs.  I can't walk there any longer (which I did). So much for "sustainable living".

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 06:37:54 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is not the Green party doing this -- it's (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan, gerrilea

              local governments buying the corporate pitch that these mega companies are providing jobs. If you want to see case after case of this laid out and explained read David Cay Johnston's "Free Lunch."

            •  Either (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe

              you are very bad at math, or you simply don't have any facts at hand and are responding with invented material:

              I had a 1983 Dodge Omni that got 43 mpg.  Today, the average car gets what 22 mpg.  Why's that again?  The European's have cars that get 60 mpg.  We are offered hybrids that are an ecological disaster in the making (the batteries), just for $50,000 you can be put on a year waiting list for a Prius that will get maybe 40 mpg, that's 5 times the cost of the Dodge Omni.
              I drove Dodge Omni's in the 1980s, but not by choice. It was the car that was in our car pools.  They were awful cars, rated among some of the worst automobiles ever made due to defective brakes, underpowered engines, rusting problems.

               Perhaps on a highway trip at lower speeds (50-55) you could do 40+ MPG but the EPA ratings in those years were almost never achieved in regular driving.  The cars I drove daily got no more than 25 MPG in 80% highway and 20% city driving.

               Sticker price of a 2012 Prius:  v Five = $29,990, not $50,000.  THe v Two is $26,400.

              An Omni, in 1983, cost around $10,000. 30 years of inflation and the $26,400 for a Prius is not a super high price.

              Comparing a Prius and a Dodge Omni which was a cheap tin box with zero safety features is not really a true comparison.  One of the major reasons the Omni was discontinued was the horrible safety ratings in collisions.

              If you really believe that the reason we don't have empty tin boxes available as cars for sale today has to do with the UN Agenda 21 taking over the world, then there isn't much that can be done for you.

              What does tax breaks for Bass Pro or Walmart have ANYTHING to do with "The Green Agenda?"    

              Cities, counties and states have been giving tax breaks for many years, but relating that somehow to "The Green Agenda" is just nuts.   Relating it to UN Agenda 21 is doubling down on the "nuts" part!

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:17:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hey, now I have to be a math professor??? (0+ / 0-)

                Well, my Dodge Omni got 43 mpg...And I did do work on it myself...brakes being the big one. And it's list price IN 1988 was $5,995

                http://autos.msn.com/...

                Opps, my bad on the costs...the company I work for calls them "specialty cars", never looked the list price up...

                In 2012 they cost around $30,000

                So, 1988 Omni = $6000
                2012 Prius = $$30,000
                And if I use this handy inflation calculator

                http://146.142.4.24/...

                we get a cost of $11,496.11 in 2012

                Hmmm, triple the costs and a bit better gas mileage...thanks for clarifying that for me...UGGGGHHHH!

                AS for this:

                What does tax breaks for Bass Pro or Walmart have ANYTHING to do with "The Green Agenda?"  

                It's Urban Redevelopment! And yes they are the same:
                Millions For Downtown Development

                “I want to thank the many experienced stakeholders in Buffalo’s downtown community who volunteered their time and effort to take an in depth look at Buffalo’s urban core, and then developed well-coordinated strategic ways to make all downtown buildings more commercially competitive. As a result of their detailed report, I made a commitment of nearly $12 million today to support downtown projects and development over the next three years,” said Brown, who also noted that Buffalo recently secured an additional $19 million for economic development through state and federal grants. “The report released today recognizes that there is a strong demand for people to live Downtown. My hope is that the money I commit will leverage even more funding for Downtown from other public and private investors.”

                Where does this stem from?

                http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/...

                The Queen City in the 21st Century: Buffalo’s Comprehensive Plan is a bold statement by residents, businesses and political leaders about what kind of future Buffalo can expect if we plan together and implement with commitment.

                Buffalo is the second largest city in the State of New York and the hub of the Buffalo- Niagara Region. As Buffalo goes, so goes the region. The Queen City in the 21st Century is based on that fundamental understanding.

                The plan makes an unequivocal commitment to the use of smart growth principles as tools to revitalize the City and stabilize the region.By building on our cultural assets, increasing the economic base through strategic investments in infrastructure and business development, and enhancing the green environment, we are confident that we can reestablish Buffalo’s position of greatness in the nation and world.

                http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/...
                Four general scenarios were compared:

                    *A: “Trend” – assuming that the City and region would continue with planning, capital investment and development policies and programs similar to those that have been pursued in recent years.
                    *B: “Urban Revitalization” – assuming that planning and redevelopment efforts would be focused on the revitalization of Buffalo’s neighborhoods, house by house and block by block.
                    *C: “Corridor/ Activity Center” – assuming redevelopment efforts would be directed toward key economic generators such as major transportation corridors and the Downtown.
                    *D: “Integrated Regional Center” – assuming the City will pursue both repair of the urban fabric and redevelopment of key economic generators in an integrated strategy.

                The alternative scenario analysis was based on one simple idea – that it is possible to change the direction of the city by changing the direction of Buffalo’s planning, capital investment and development priorities, policies and programs. That means choosing the right scenario and strategy can make the difference between meeting the goal of this plan and failing to do so.  

                Local Agenda 21 Model Communities Programme, ICLEI:

                http://www.iclei.org/...

                I guess you are mistaken, as was I.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:08:34 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you were driving a stripped down basic model, (0+ / 0-)

                  sure, you may have paid around $6000 for it in ... was it 1983 or 1988?  You've used both, I think.

                  But there were Omni models selling for $10,000 to 11,000 during 1988-90, specifically the GLH and GLHS.

                  Now, if you want to go through the exercise of comparing a stripped down Dodge Omni from 1988 (or 83) (which didn't even include air conditioning), then you have to admit that is a pretty poor comparison for a fully equipped, low polluting, safety feature-packed, every-feature-there-is Prius.

                  Not to mention the unreliability of the Omnis compared with any modern car, really.  They were cracker boxes.  I drove them back then because that's what our company provided.  Our company bought the $5999 models which didn't even have radios, let alone AC!

                  They weren't anywhere near the quality of a Nissan (which is what I owned) of the same years.  And nowhere near the features for the price.

                  What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                  by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 12:26:33 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pointless, really... (0+ / 0-)

                    I was driving a 1983 IN 1988...does that help you???? I paid $500 for it.

                    And there wasn't any air conditioning...to me that's a luxury that destroys the environment that I was glad it didn't have.

                    But there's a big difference between needing something to exist (primatene mist for me) and driving an air conditioned car. No one needs an air conditioned car to live.

                    BIG DIFFERENCE.

                    As for the misdirection of this thread you've attempted, it still doesn't address the points I've made twice now.

                    The Dodge Omni I had got 43 miles per gallon.  The Prius costs 3 times as much and gets a little better mpg's.  The Prius is also an ecological disaster in the making....what about the damn batteries? Or are they just going to magically disappear? Or is the owner going to have to fork out thousands more for disposal?

                    How are we any better? Oh wait, the Omni was unreliable and a cracker box, had no air conditioning or radio, etc, etc..

                    My, my, my, I love your double standards...really I do...

                    Nor have you addressed the facts presented in my last reply...just ignored them...

                    I see how this works with you, I really think I've had enough of this topic for awhile.

                    I'll continue my digestion of what she said in her lecture and I might actually have to watch it again and take notes and then fact check them myself...as I did to reply to you today.

                    Thanks for playing a game here.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 11:39:11 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You keep saying a Dodge Omni got 43mpg (0+ / 0-)

                      but it didn't!   Not in all driving, only on highway driving.

                      In city driving, it got around 20-24 mpg.  

                      In city driving, a Prius gets 40+ mpg or nearly double and is a much safer, more reliable auto.

                      You keep ignoring that fact, stomping your feet on 43 mpg, and insisting that is the only point.

                      You are intentionally ignoring everything else, just to insist over all facts and reason, that cars have not improved.

                      The average mileage of ALL cars has definitely improved in the last 30 years.  You ignore that fact too.  ALL cars, together, get better mileage these days.

                      Your example of the Omni ignores the Cadillacs which were getting 12 mpg or the 450 cubic inch Oldsmobiles which got even less.  It ignores all the improvements in emissions while maintaining the higher mileage.

                      You don't fact check.  You fact-select and then you mis-relate those facts to come to an unjustified conclusion.  That won't help you figure out that video.  

                      Anyone who thinks "the UN is coming to force us all into prison camps" needs their head examined.

                      What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                      by YucatanMan on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 02:08:27 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I tell you what I experienced and you deny it (0+ / 0-)

                        okay...I don't care what you say is your facts, what I personally experienced is the only truth that I can verify today.

                        That's not select fact checking hon, it's firsthand experience. What surprised me the most, my very first car that I bought was brand new, a Ford Escort Pony, in 1987...it got less gas mileage than the Omni...I could email you pictures of the cars I've owned if you really don't believe...due to an insurance agents mistake/theft, I had to have M&T Bank voluntarily repossess it, forcing me to find something I could use to get to work with.

                        And subsequent vehicles I've purchased through the years have always been newer and "better"...practical life experience has shown me there is very little difference in the newer/better cars, the only exception, safety, which contributes almost nothing to the total mpg's a car will attain.

                        Next time I go to work, I'll print out the current list of makes/models and fuel efficiency ratings. As I stated the only one that IS consistently good, the Nissan Altima.

                        Right now on their website they claim 23/33 mpg's. But if we go by the actual car readouts, they are getting about 37 mpg's...again depending on whom drove the vehicle last.

                        As for the huge caddies or H3's of today, I wouldn't buy or drive any of them...pure gluttony, in my opinion.

                        Shouldn't market saturation be a factor in these claims that gas mileage is better today? How many people are driving what cars, right? I don't see many people driving huge cars any longer. Ton's of SUV's that were deemed exempt from any regulations, so they can't be counted either, right? Light Trucks don't have to follow emission standards or mpg regulations right????

                        As for emissions improvements, how are we any better off after billions in research and everyone turns to driving SUV's which don't have to follow them???

                        As for this:

                        Anyone who thinks "the UN is coming to force us all into prison camps" needs their head examined.
                        I never said that...YOU DID! I asked if Agenda 21 was being used as the means to force us into urban centers and strip of our property rights...

                        Here's a nugget for you to chew on, as will I in the coming days as I research this further:

                        http://www.un-documents.net/...

                        1. Land, because of its unique nature and the crucial role it plays in human settlements, cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 03:52:07 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  FYI: Inflation (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              A Siegel

              $10,000 in 1983 = $23,316.91 in 2011.

              So for the increased size, the many additional safety features, not to mention advanced electronics and comfort, you are paying a whole whopping $3,100 extra in today's dollars over a 1983 Dodge Omni.

              The Omni, by the way, got over 40 MPG (if you were very very lucky) only on the highway.  In town, where most of urban America does their driving these days (most the nation lives inside larger cities and does their driving within the cities), the Omni got only around 24 MPG.  

              The Prius, meanwhile, in city stop-and-go driving, gets around 40 MPG.  That's the real difference.

              In the meanwhile, you compare the Dodge Omni which was ONE car sold in the 1980s, not the average of all cars, with the general mileage available in cars today.

              The national average MPG has been steadily rising due to US government regulation (has the UN taken over Washington? Oh No!?) since the 1970s.  On the whole - considering all cars - we have a national miles per gallon much better than the national average in the 1980s.

              You can drive whatever car you choose to drive, but when you go to buy a new car, it carries the safety features, emission controls and mileage ratings (on a CAFE average) required the the US government.

              Are you now "unfree" because you cannot buy a car that spews pollutants like a 1983 Omni?  

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:28:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ROFL, thanks for the strawman... (0+ / 0-)

                1950 Studebaker

                Studebaker engineers didn't overlook fuel efficiency with their V-8. In the 1951 Mobilgas Economy Run, a Commander won Class B with a 28-mpg average. A Land Cruiser posted 27.6 -- nearly three mpg better than the previous year's Commander Six. (The Champion, with an unchanged six, managed 28.6 mpg, tops for all full-size cars entered.)
                Hon, I never said this:
                Are you now "unfree" because you cannot buy a car that spews pollutants like a 1983 Omni?  
                I said I owned one that got 43 mpg...it was a zippy little car that I drove for almost 2 yrs...it did all I needed it to do...THE point you intentionally miss here is that it got as good mpg's as a Prius today.

                And you didn't mention the ecological disaster in the making for the batteries in the Prius....how much will it cost to clean that up in 50 yrs? Or will the owner of one today be required to spend thousands more to have it taken and disposed of somewhere?

                How are we any better off??? That's the question you don't want asked nor will answer here today...

                Thanks...

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:24:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How are we better off? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  A Siegel

                  Today's cars spew far less pollutants than the cars of 1983.

                  The car you mention never got 43 mpg in city driving. In fact, they barely got 20.  They were essentially tin boxes with an engine. There were no side crash bars, no air bags, hardly any safety equipment beyond seat belts.

                  Deciding that "we are not better off" from comparing two of dozens of cars available is just flawed thinking.

                  The entire country did not drive Omnis in 1983 and the entire country does not drive Prius' today.  Any conclusion based on those two examples regarding the state of the nation is simply a falsely drawn conclusion -- a fallacy of logic.

                  Your posts about cars from the 1950s making high mpg in Economy Runs -- driving not like the real world, but specifically designed for the highest mileage possible -- are also not illustrative.

                  In fact, from little green footballs to promoting UN conspiracy theories, I am concluding that you are a right wing CT case.

                  What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                  by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:32:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's your opinion, not what I experienced. (0+ / 0-)

                    You see, I actually re-did all the vacuum hoses, replacing all of them and poof, that car ran like a top, I was simply amazed.

                    I did a combination of city and highway driving and when I filled up, I checked the mileage...I do that with every car I've ever had...including my beloved 20yr old (1992) 940 GL Volvo today...it sucks on mpg's...I'm averaging right now about 16-18mpg each week (city driving) ON the highway it goes up to 23-25mpg's. Yes it's bigger, safer and has a radio, oh and air conditioning that stopped working years ago...

                    I do understand your "total sum" theory, really I do...I don't know how many people drive each specific brand of car in the US today, but the mpg's haven't gotten any better from what I've experienced, in fact, they've gotten worse.

                    I work for a rental car company here in Buffalo and I've been learning the differences in the vehicles, the only one that consistently gets good gas mileage, the Nissan Altima, it gives you a mpg read-out and most of them show 35-39 mpg's...depending on who drove it last. A Chevy Aveo gets 22 mpg's, it's smaller and lighter than my damn Volvo, why isn't it getting 60 mpg's?

                    NOW let's try to stay focused on topic? How many billions and billions of dollars have been spent on green studies, green meetings, green this, green that and where are we today? No further than we were 20 yrs ago, except a lot more deeper in debt and nothing to show for it.

                    Seems to me the green movement has been co-opted, as I repeat myself. It's like the never ending "war on drugs" and the "war on terror"...black holes meant to waste and impoverish this nation.

                    Want to fix the planet? I'll back you 100% but there's only one catch and two demands I'll make...retro fit all home insulation...it would take about 20 yrs and cost use a bit over a trillion dollars... we'd reduce energy usage by 50%....one step, one goal, one project.

                    Who's the biggest energy wasters on this planet? Big business and their steel and glass "ivory towers", ban any building over 50 stories high AND demand that these buildings have 90% less windows. These two simple acts will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 70%.

                    How about real solutions to the problem? Or will that upset the proverbial Apple Cart too much? That's my only catch, I want results not enslavement brought about by guile, deception and theft through "private/public partnerships".

                    Have fun, I'm done for now...really I am...

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 12:37:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Do you know what a "strawman" is? (0+ / 0-)

                  Because you pile them up like bales of hay.

                  The Mobil Gas Economy Run was a 840 mile highway route from LA to the Grand Canyon.

                  The cars were purposely driven only to achieve maximum mileage, not arrive first or even quickly.  As a result, they averaged 30-40 mph on the highway.  Is that how fast you drive on the open highway today?

                  By the way, lots of claims are made about winning that particular Economy Run. Here is another:

                  The "baby" Lincolns won the 1951 Mobilgas Economy Run this year, with an average of 25.448 mpg.
                  According to Mobil Gas, the best mileage was 25.448 (NOT the 28 claimed by Studebaker) and the average was 29.923.  See the actual results in this image:

                  http://www.tocmp.com/...

                  But that begs the question:  How is any of that relevant to the average mileage of all cars today?  

                  How does the example of what one car did in 1951 have anything to do with what ALL cars do today?  And how much different are the cars?  Are the emissions?  Are the safety standards?

                  In fact, your one-off examples prove nothing.  We have economy or mileage contests today with "cars" which make 100 mpg. So what?

                  What really matters is the average mileage of all the cars in the nation, as well as the pollution emitted by all the cars in the nation.

                  What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                  by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:45:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Typo: s/b "the average was 23.923 mpg" n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

                    by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:51:44 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Water Rights have to do with laws going (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hopeful Skeptic

              back centuries, not with the UN Agenda 21.

              If water flows through your land, any changes you may decide to make can affect people upstream and downstream from you.  Therefore, you have to take other people into account when you make changes with flowing water.

              This is not something new. An environmental study is just a new term for what has long been the law - centuries - that you cannot take, slow, remove, back-up, or otherwise affect water that others should have access to as well, without taking them into consideration; without discussion and coming to agreement.

              One person with water flowing past is not the only person affected. Everyone upstream and downstream are potentially affected.  A turbine requires a dam or swale or retention pool/pond and other structures.  A turbine has a discharge pipe.  

              How those things are built affects other people.

              I hope that part is not difficult to follow.

              Water use laws have their basis in common law that goes back many many years. Slapping a "UN 21" label on them and becoming paranoid is a poor excuse for trying to understand why something is necessary.

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:52:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is immaterial, really...EPA regulations (0+ / 0-)

                are for environmental studies and issues, not if your neighbors down stream or up stream are effected.  

                Big difference that you seriously have tried to obfuscate and brush off as "paranoid" so as to no answer or address the issue.

                Which is superior, man or animal? Having respect for and living with nature is important, but some unelected (and unaccountable) bureaucrat has decided these issues not neighbors or communities. Corporations that have bought off our (s)elected officials (depending on which Diebold voting system your county was forced to buy) get waivers to destroy vast tracks of mountains, water reservoirs etc, etc and any individual trying to do the right thing and live off the grid are prevented from doing it.

                Where's the equity under law again?

                What are the results again of these policies? Enslavement to our corporate overlords that have co-opted truly green environmentally beneficial individuals and communities.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 03:31:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  how much of the actual agenda 21 text (8+ / 0-)

      have you read?

      Because t looks to me that the things that Rosa is claiming are "goals" of Agenda 21 (like the ones you listed) are nowhere to be found.  

      She seems to have a pretty skewed view of the goals of the agenda, and seems to be mis-informing people based on her skewed views.  

      Her views are so detached from the reality of Agenda 21, that she reminds me of Orly Taitz.

      "The death penalty is never about the criminal. They've already done their worst. The question is always "will we join them"?" - jlynne

      by Hopeful Skeptic on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:03:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-)

        http://www.iisd.org/...

        Agenda 21 explains that population, consumption and technology are the primary driving forces of environmental change
        I don't know who Orly Taitz is.

        Is this "executive agreement" being implemented? Yes.

        Is it bad that we strive to protect the environment? No.

        Do I have any choices? No.

        Was Gibson Guitar Company raided under the Lacey Act?
        Yes.

        Were they told this?

        Worse, says Juszkiewicz, the government told him if he would just have all of the work outsourced to India, the problem would go away.  Yes, we've had the worst employment month since World War II and someone in the government that created this mess is telling an American company to outsource more jobs.
        YES.

        Gibson Guitars And The Lacey Act Misused

        The planned de-industrialization of America, prompted by the green movement.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 07:40:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A couple responses to your questions: (8+ / 0-)

      1) Where do you think the "green agenda" is stored, managed or decided?  Do you really think that there is one agreed "agenda" of this type?

      My answer: No, the very idea is simply scare-mongering.  All it takes is one look at the power wielded by finance (Wall Street-ish firms), oil, and coal to see that the obviously "dirty brown agenda" is more powerful than any "green agenda" even being proposed let alone having a chance of hell of being enacted.  Look up Al Gore's plans for reducing our emissions and you'll see that much of the required change to manage CO2 can be done with relatively mild changes in lifestyles.

      2) This is another flavor of "Black Helicopters from the UN are taking over your little town NOW - Run and Hide! Save yourselves! Run and Hide!" This lie has been spread by John Birchers and other radical to fascist right wing virulent anti-communists and racists for over 50 years. Seriously.  "The UN will get us!!!" has been a constant refrain among the Capitalist ultra-right.  

      Seriously, someone gave a talk like that in my college days which were well over 30 years ago.  Their proof the UN was taking over?  Photos of police cars with no logos!  No logos!  "GOD ALMIGHTY, It has to be the UN coming to GET US!"

      3) Are you serious?  What evidence do you see of any such thing taking place?  Yes, the US is has characteristics of a police state these days, but not because of the UN or "the Green Agenda."  The US looks more like a police state because of the policies of the Far Right Fright crowd who are peeing in their drawers about the terrahists around every corner lamp post.  9/11 is the impetus for

      Finally, this person may claim to be all those "liberal" things you list, but anyone who embraces this reframing of radical right wing conspiracy theory scare tactics is NOT a "liberal" in any way shape or form.  

      This is a common propaganda tactic: Claiming to be part of the group for which you are now "revealing" their "true" plans.  After all, if you are part of the group, you "know" the "real" "agenda," right?  Or at least, that's how the thinking goes.

      Sorry.  Fail.  Big time Fail. Pure lies and scare tactics.

      What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

      by YucatanMan on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:46:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay, then explain this to me. (0+ / 0-)

        CFC Ban Claims Over-Counter Inhalers

        And yes, that does say 2008. Hemingway's formulation notwithstanding, the rule was promulgated under the presidency of George W. Bush. Further complicating the narrative is the bipartisan nature of the country's adoption of the Montreal protocols that sought to ban the release of CFC's, as a blogger at Little Green Footballs notes. like all other members of the United Nations, the U.S. abides by the CFC ban treaty. It was signed in 1987, by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.
        https://www.federalregister.gov/...

        http://littlegreenfootballs.com/...

        Now I've had asthma since I was a child, as long as I did my deep breathing exercises, it was kept under control, no drugs ever needed.  After 20 yrs in the Restaurant Industry as Chef, the hot oils, heat etc made those techniques moot.  I had a severe asthma attack about 15 yrs ago and was forced into the hospital.  They gave me all kinds of stuff and I started to feel better within minutes.  I got the prescription for albuterol and within a week my lungs ached and then I started spitting up bloody sputum. I went immediately to the doctors office, we tried another inhaler (I can't for the life of me remember the name at this moment) and the asthma attacks got worse, as did the bleeding.

        Reeling from the hospital emergency room bill and the costs of the medications ($90 a month), I went to Rite-Aid and saw Primatene Mist (for $11.00), I bought it and my asthma attacks stopped within seconds.

        I stopped using the "recommended and prescribed" treatments and when I went back to my doctor I told him, he said, if it works, that's all that matters. I've used it ever since, it's the only thing that works for me.

        As of December 31, 2011, I can no longer buy Primatene Mist because of the green agenda.  There aren't any equally suitable replacements.

        So, when I run out of the primatene mist I've stored up, am I expected to die?  Seems likely. You know, Primatene mist only works for over 5 million people, and costs next to nothing and you know, one of those bottles lasts me over 3 months.

        My practical life experience here is an example of that "private/public partnership" to save the environment and force people into an early grave, even though there was a treatment.

        The practical costs of prescription drugs (that don't work) versus an over-the-counter product that did are as follows: $90 a month x 12 months = $1080 yrly, this doesn't include the costs of doctors visits every other month at $65.00 (totaling $390 yrly). That is without health insurance, with health insurance, add another $1800 yrly and lower the doctor visit co-pay to $30 and lower the co-pay for the prescription to $25.

        So, without health insurance it costs $1470. With health insurance it costs $2280.

        Primatene mist by itself costs $44 yearly (at my usage).

        So, again, my LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS STAND.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 08:30:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So, you believe this episode in your health care (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hopeful Skeptic

          has to do with UN Agenda 21 controlling our lives?

          http://www.fda.gov/...

          Do you feel we should continue to use chemicals known to destroy the ozone layer simply to propel the actual drug itself into your nose?

          Consumers and patients certainly need more protection from predatory Big Pharma practices, but that doesn't mean that the UN is controlling our lives.

          In fact, the environmental movement would be more than happy, I believe, to have medications more widely available and at cheaper prices.

          It is REPUBLICANS who support big corporations over the working people, not the UN who is coming to get us.

          What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

          by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:02:13 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hon, relax, the drug isn't propelled into my nose. (0+ / 0-)

            Are you trying to make it out to be like cocaine or something...pluease stop.

            As for this red-herring:

            Do you feel we should continue to use chemicals known to destroy the ozone layer simply to propel the actual drug itself into your nose?
            Could you provide some verifiable studies where the user of primatene mist is destroying the ozone layer? How's that possible if I'm inhaling it? Are you saying the manufacturing process is flawed? What is it???

            http://today.msnbc.msn.com/...

            Asthma patients who rely on over-the-counter inhalers will need to switch to prescription-only alternatives as part of the federal government's latest attempt to protect the Earth's atmosphere.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:49:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  CFCs are known to cause damage to the ozone (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hopeful Skeptic

              layer.

              It is something called science.  CFCs leak at every stage of manufacturing, distribution, storage and use (inhaling).

              CFCs are in the mist, but it is not the medicine itself.

              The problem with not using any other available propellant is the fault of the manufacturer.

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:58:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope it was the Montreal protocols that were (0+ / 0-)

                adopted through the green agenda that was then "redefined" excluding "necessary uses."

                What I can't get my head around here is this, how is anything you or I do going to actually matter against the destruction occurring every day we use depleted uranium in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc, etc, etc???

                You do know that it's killed, and maimed thousands and is showing up in water in Kansas. You do know it will effect every plant, animal and everything for the next 4 billion years, destroying and mutating life where ever it lands.

                So, in comparison, my short life that just became shorter due to "green laws" is immaterial, isn't it???

                Watch this short video and pay attention to the pictures of what depleted uranium is doing right now and then tell me that any "green" living is going to matter 10 yrs, 20 yrs or 10,000 yrs from now. Go ahead and tell me it's the manufactures' fault, will ya???

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 11:06:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Now that you have outed yourself as a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hopeful Skeptic

          Little Green Footballs reader (right wing website), it's becoming a little more clear.

          At any rate:

          Armstrong Pharmaceuticals, Inc. is actively finalizing its internal development of a new, CFC-Free replacement for Primatene® Mist that will continue to use epinephrine as its active ingredient but will use a more environmentally friendly propellant (known as HFA, or hydrofluoroalkane).

          Please direct all questions regarding Primatene® Mist to our Customer Service Department at 1-877-462-8363.

          http://www.primatene.com/...

          Since this law was on the books for years, we can only wonder why Armstrong Pharmaceuticals has not finalized their development of a different propellant base sooner.

          However, this is a beef you have to take up with Armstrong, the manufacturer, and not another chapter in UN Agenda 21.

          What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

          by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:22:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hon, that was a link in original article I posted (0+ / 0-)

            from the Atlantic, are they now a right-wing website that I wasn't told about too???

            And the link was about debunking that Obama had anything to do with the ban of Primatene Mist.

            That the push came from the Montreal Protocols under the UN's "United Nations Environment Programme"

            Here's the pdf to the agreement.

            http://www.unep.org/...

            Thanks for forcing me to take the time this morning before work to research this for all of us.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:37:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No one "forced" you to do anything. (0+ / 0-)

              Your paranoia about being followed down the street by the scary UN may be forcing you to do things, but I don't force you to do anything at all.

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 10:53:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The article is about how right wing websites (0+ / 0-)

              like The Weekly Standard are framing the whole Primatine Mist issue.  That is what the article is about.

              It is not an explanatory article confirming that the UN is peeping down our chimneys.

              What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

              by YucatanMan on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 11:05:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Skirt the issues, thanks....did the Montreal (0+ / 0-)

                protocols originally allow CFC's that were deemed necessary as being the exception? Yes.  Did that same "agreement" then be re-interpreted under Bush to exclude them? Yes.

                Did that agreement make it illegal for a proven asthma treatment to be banned? YES.

                What does this specific issue have to do with your red herring of "the UN peeping down our chimneys"???

                Nothing.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 11:14:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  This is an awful speech. (0+ / 0-)

      What I'm about to tell you is all true. You're all right about everything already - you know most of what I'm about to say, because you're smart people, despite the fact that we disagree on the basic questions of how humans should organize themselves (called government).

    •  Sigh ... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hopeful Skeptic, Agathena, New Rule

      as so many have commented, this set of questions (and the video you have) sounds so much like Tea Party-ite propaganda seeking to forestall any sensible action to mitigate climate change and reduce U.S. dependency on oil.

      Simple (and truthful and factual) answers to your three questions:

      1.  No.

      2.  No.

      3.  No.

      Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

      by A Siegel on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 11:46:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you come into another of my diaries with this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agathena, Hopeful Skeptic, New Rule

      crap..I'm going to HR you into oblivion

      •  I'll join you BBinF. Great diary, keep up your (2+ / 0-)

        good work.

        ❧To thine ownself be true

        by Agathena on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 04:26:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Delphi technique exposed, thanks... (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        beach babe in fl

        And here I thought I you just didn't know the results of what has been termed the "green movement" that I've personally financially supported and lived.

        If you disagree with the facts presented, that's one thing point me in the direction where I might learn.

        In the end you've just stated that you will violate our HR standards here for whatever reasons...

        Thanks again for revealing the truth to me now.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 10:35:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  She lies, twists and turns and mixes issues (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hopeful Skeptic, New Rule

      This is not an American issue, it's her real estate issue.
      She advocates uncontrolled development of property.

      In the end, we need clean air and water to exist and that trumps her need to protect her real estate and development needs.

      BTW
      It's not climate change anymore, it's climate chaos.

      ❧To thine ownself be true

      by Agathena on Tue Feb 21, 2012 at 04:13:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks, beachbabe, (6+ / 0-)

    This is good news.  I saw it in the media and was appreciative of the state department and Hillary, duly noting, however, that they did not mention meat consumption as a shorter lived climate forcer.  Still it is a start.  Maybe Bill and Hillary will help save the world, between this state department initiative and and Bill's highly publicized veganism.  With the help of beachbabe and Gerard Wedderborn Bisshop  and all the rest of us who are not eating animal products and trying to spread the word.  It's a good feeling to have hope and ideas that could succeed!                  

  •  Good stuff (9+ / 0-)

    Looks like Rio+20 could really become a successful conference, for a change. Some really promising developments on the urban planning front as well, but if ever there was a more cynical attempt not only to ignore any warning signs but to actively speed up our demise, look no further than the ridiculous transportation budget submitted by House Repubs. These people are literally insane, I'm not sure how else to put it.

  •  Not going to happen.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    John Crapper, alizard, Kickemout

    ....at least that way. Most preaching of vegetarianism simply annoys people, partly because a great deal of it is suffused with a choking level of self-righteousness.

    However, if we could get the meat in some other way than by raising animals.....

    Roast peacock for dinner, anyone?

    When we are no longer children, we are already dead. (Constantin Brancusi) And whoever gave it, thanks for the gift!

    by sagesource on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 06:37:57 PM PST

    •  Beachbabe gives us beautiful recipes (9+ / 0-)

      not self-righteous rants.

      She is a great resource for everyone who wants to find a good new vegetarian recipe. That includes both people who eat some meat and people who are vegans.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:17:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing personal (0+ / 0-)

        But vegetarianism is in general a dead end. For instance, I deal with a lot of people from China. With the exception of the more devout Buddhists, they are all devout meat-eaters and would laugh in your face if you tried to convince them otherwise.

        Stop fooling yourselves. You will never convince people to stop eating meat fast enough to make a difference. The meat has to come from somewhere else if this major factor contributing to climate change is to be addressed successfully.

        Even if it does mean destroying the chief rationale for vegetarianism, which will become even less popular than it is today if you can watch a happy cow over an internet video link while eating a steak cloned from its muscle cells.

        When we are no longer children, we are already dead. (Constantin Brancusi) And whoever gave it, thanks for the gift!

        by sagesource on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:28:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Reducing meat consumption is an achievable (6+ / 0-)

          goal.  I lived in Thailad for 15 years and although many of their dishes have a meat element the quantity is quite small in comparison to what is served up in US restaurants like Black Angus.  There are lots of good health reasons to reduce meat intake irregardless of the benefits to climate change.  I attented a vegan trade show last year and was amazed at all the meatless meat tasting choices they were serving up.  I'm not vegetarian but I've reduced my meat consumption a lot and feel better because of it.

          If we really want to straighten out all this crap we need to really think about shit!

          by John Crapper on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:02:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thailand.... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alizard, blueoasis, ozsea1

            ....being a strongly Buddhist country, has never been high on the meat-consumption list. And even so, its per-capital meat consumption has almost doubled in the last few decades, so your impression of its "meatlessness" is false.

            This article from the Manchester Guardian lays out the figures per country. The "rest of the world" is going heavily into meat and there is no sign they are going to stop. If this has bad consequences for the environment, and it does, their desire for meat has to be satisfied in ways that are less environmentally damaging.

            When we are no longer children, we are already dead. (Constantin Brancusi) And whoever gave it, thanks for the gift!

            by sagesource on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:14:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh bullshit. Meat has been associated with (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FinchJ, Catte Nappe, indycam

              status for sometime now. To suggest that it's unstoppable is to contradict your own information, which makes it evident that meat consumption is societally influenced. You can't have it both ways.

              I've been a vegetarian for 23 years now. When I first became a veggie in the late '80's, you couldn't count on getting a vegetarian meal in any given restaurant. Now you can. That is a big impact that vegetarianism has made in this country, and it's complete bs to suggest it couldn't happen elsewhere.

              Also, seriously? You think that cloning meat is a quicker solution than minimizing meat consumption?

              And please don't tell me that all vegetarians are preachy. I'm not. When you're espousing the virtues of peacock meat, maybe you need to look in the mirror before you denounce people as irrationally evangelical.

        •  Who's self-righteous now? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          2020adam

          "But vegetarianism is in general a dead end."
          "Stop fooling yourselves."

          Yeah, it's vegetarians who're the self-righteous ones.

          Oh, and the instant anyone says "nothing personal" is the instant that they recognize that what they're going to say is personal.

          •  I congratulate you on your perspicacity.... (0+ / 0-)

            ....but I'm not self-righteous. I'm right.

            Read the Guardian article referenced above. Note the increase in meat consumption in China. What was it that was going to stop this rise, again? Sternly worded letters from vegetarians? Bill Clinton's wagging finger?

            Now, let us begin where I suspect we already agree: that the present number of burping, farting, methane-bubbling-manure-pond producing meat animals is not supportable in the long run, or even for that matter in the short run. Not that it's not virtuous: damn few people believe you on that. Just that it is not supportable, since methane is a greenhouse gas, and we do not need any more of those. And that action on this front is promising, since if the supply of new methane is controlled, the methane already in the atmosphere goes out of circulation more rapidly than does, say, carbon dioxide.

            So you see the problem isn't the meat. It's the byproducts of nature's sloppy way of making the meat. I suggest that with a bit of effort, we can do better.

            And if you put forward a "solution" to a critical problem that is a guaranteed failure, you either don't take the problem seriously or you love your ideology more than your fellow human beings.

            When we are no longer children, we are already dead. (Constantin Brancusi) And whoever gave it, thanks for the gift!

            by sagesource on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:27:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you don't know anything about this issue (0+ / 0-)

              meat production is a HUGE water user.   And China which has a major environmental movement is imploding from pollution and 2/3 of it's cities have water crisis.  It will make a turnaround.    What we need to worry about is OUR consumption and we are the world leaders.

            •  "I'm not self-righteous. I'm right." (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              citisven

              That sentence = self-righteousness.

            •  This reminds me of sunday school (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, ozsea1, JTinDC

              when I quietly drew different conclusions from what the teacher preached.

              Animal raising is responsible for 33% of methane, a greenhouse gas.

              Deforestation causes a 25% increase in greenhouse gasses.

              I'm all for reforesting.

              But I'm real worried about the other sources for 67% of the methane, and folks getting diverted from controlling the lion's share of methane emissions from other sources.

              Reducing eating meat will help reduce greenhouse gasses but it is a fraction of the problem, and I fear getting diverted from the main source of greenhouse gas emissions--power production.

              •  not to mentioin that veganism represents the (0+ / 0-)

                actual far left fringe and will do nothing to get the broader population on board.

                Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

                by JTinDC on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 08:36:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Nature's sloppy way of making meat? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              indycam

              Yeah, a bunch of scientists really know how to make meat better than nature- who has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years.

              It is nature's fault that humanity forces animals to eat diets their bodies cannot digest properly. It is nature's fault that humanity demands to eat larger quantities of  meat at every meal. It is nature's fault that humanity has decided to suck out the fossilized solar power and spew it into the atmosphere.

              Nature shouldn't have made oil in the first place. We know better than time.

    •  How funny that vegetarian self-righteousness... (3+ / 0-)

      ...is what gets cited by them in defense of their desire to eat meat because what I see in their condemnation of vegentarians is their own self-righteousness.  They take on the attitude that they're going to eat meat solely as an act of defiance; it's a very immature reaction, like a child doing something solely because their parents tell them not to, not giving one thought as to the actual reasoning behind the "not to" argument.

    •  Just read your link - worth the read for sure!n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, blueoasis, Catte Nappe

      If we really want to straighten out all this crap we need to really think about shit!

      by John Crapper on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 08:09:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am totally getting a kick out of the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hopeful Skeptic, Matt Z, Catte Nappe

    fact that a user named 'beach babe in fl' also gives talks to major international policy groups. LOL! We've come a long way, baby.* Most cool - thanks very much for the update.

    (*In case you don't know the reference, it's the advertising slogan for Virginia Slims, a cigarette aimed at women, introduced in 1968.)

    "Maybe this is how empires die - their citizens just don't deserve to be world leaders anymore." -Kossack Puddytat, In a Comment 18 Sept 2011

    by pixxer on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 07:25:54 PM PST

  •  If you want to reduce ground level ozone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis

    ...the serious route would be to eliminate combustion of alcohol in motor vehicles. When you burn alcohol you emit acetyl aldehyde. Throw acetyl aldehyde in air and sun and soon you've got a soup of peroxyacetyl nitrates which are just dandy for catalyzing formation of ozone.

    When the big push for corn ethanol in fuel came down the political chute the EPA warned it would cause a spike in PANs and a spike in ozone and sure enough it came to pass,

    There are also a lot of things that could be done to limit reactive nitrogen in the environment and they would be even less politically palatable than ending production of corn ethanol fuel.

    Promoting vegetarianism is warm and fuzzy and yes it would have a lot of positive effects including reducing methane and ozone. It is secondary

    Given the choice between supporting corn ethanol and garnering 100 marginal votes in the Iowa caucuses or terminating corn ethanol and saving the planet our politicians will choose the Iowa votes every time.  

  •  If you want to reduce methane directly (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WheninRome, blueoasis, 2020adam, antirove

    just stop fracking. Stop it dead cold now. Subject all aspects of oil and gas production to monitoring and regulation in extremis.

    Since that is not politically palatable talk about vegetarianism instead.

    Check the AIRS 400mb methane levels in the Arctic. Going up fast. God only knows if we even have time to discuss this stuff anymore. But there will always time for diversionary tactics. Nothing to see here. Move right along. Have a veggie burger.

  •  I agree that the government is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, melo, Catte Nappe

    "acting now" and had read of the announcement in "regular news."  In future days, I hope to see many more nations join this initiative. I'm very happy to hear of each and every step being done to address the problem, which has already been affecting the earth for many years now.  The patterns are much different than they were in the 1980s and obvious to anyone with much of a memory, let alone an old set of USDA Planting Zoning Maps of the USA.

    And I agree that many -- probably most -- employees of the US government fully recognize the importance of global warming, it is far from clear that undertaking the massive sociological and political changes necessary to address the situation are a priority for the Obama administration.  This is the last year of his first term and the topic has rarely been addressed.  

    I have high hopes for his second term.  The US can lead the way or we can be pushed aside by nations like Germany which is full-on adopting alternative sources of energy, turning away from even nuclear energy.

    As diaried on DailyKOS recently, Germany's power system was stable during the recent record-setting cold snap, while France - heavily reliant on nuclear power - had many worries.   We can chose the path of Germany and modernize at full speed, or that of France, or just double-down on dirty fuel as the Republicans would have us do.

    To beat the Republican rhetoric that is bound to come up, the administration will have to destroy their arguments. "Compromise" with backwardness is moving backwards, not forwards.  

    I'll continue to have hope that this tack is taken.  The earth desperately needs leadership in this area.

    What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

    by YucatanMan on Sun Feb 19, 2012 at 10:18:52 PM PST

  •  I'll believe the US is "leading" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, ammasdarling

    When I see the US Congress enact some form of legislation to meet it's hardly adequate but token commitments to UNFCCC rather than hedging and obstructing to avoid acknowledging that elephant in the room obstructing real leadership and progress, which continues to be fed peanuts by this administration to keep it happy.

    BTW, to my viewpoint this is not a GOP elephant but a bipartisan one that couldn't even get to first base on carbon limits when the Dems controlled the Congress and obviously is going nowhere now and effectively at a standstill until at least after then general election.

    I do appreciate environmental activists making placeholder efforts (doing something is better than nothing), but let's not pretend it is more than that.

    But I really can't buy "what to do about Republicans" meme when so many Dems have obstructed or voted down any attempts to regulate carbon, even indirectly.  And that this includes some nominally "progressive" Senators such as Al Franken is something to think about.

    To be clear, significant legislation has barely even made it out of committee before being sand-baged or voted down. If this is leadership I obviously don't understand the meaning of the word.

    What about my Daughter's future?

    by koNko on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 02:06:31 AM PST

    •  complaint is easy making the necessary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayDean, FinchJ

      changes in your own life is harder.  That's what this diary is about.   Change has to come from the bottom.

      •  Calls for individual change are not enough... (0+ / 0-)

        I have heard dozens and dozens of pleas, exhortations, pledges, etc for the need to change individual behavior for environmental reasons ever since the first Earth Day in 1970.  Not once have any of those calls ever made any significant impact in how we do things as a society.  

        I strongly support individuals changing their behavior as a way to raise consciousness.  But the only way that society will change is through laws against or taxes on behavior that needs to change.

        Just one example: asking people to take their reusable shopping bags to stores so that less paper or plastic gets used up.  We hear that all the time with little real impact on a societal level.  I take reusable bags into all the stores I go into and I rarely see anybody else do so.  In Ireland, they enacted a tax that is the equivalent of $.33 per bag and within a year, use of non-reusable plastic bags dropped 94%.

  •  "First test-tube hamburger ready this fall" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    antirove
    The world's first "test-tube" meat, a hamburger made from a cow's stem cells, will be produced this fall, Dutch scientist Mark Post told a major science conference on Sunday.
    . . .
    Post spoke at a symposium titled "The Next Agricultural Revolution" at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Vancouver.
    . . .
    An alternative approach: "Brown said developing meat from animal cells in a laboratory will still have a high environmental cost, and so he said he will rely only on plant sources."

    there may be less to this than meets the eye... industrial-scale processing to turn vegetable protein into synthetic meat may be even more resource-intensive than vat-grown beef.

    Peak Oil is NOW! Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 02:57:28 AM PST

    •  Wouldn't 'test-tube' meat really be a hot-dog? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard

      (rather than hamburger)

      :)

      When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

      by antirove on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 03:21:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  depends on whether (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        antirove

        the researcher can manage to grow fibers instead of undifferentiated cells. But since he's starting from stem cells and there are techniques for structuring cellular growth using scaffolding, I'd be surprised if he didn't wind up with meat fibers.

        Cool would be if he can whip up a steak to go with that burger.

        I am wondering how he's going to get or mass-produce stem cells in industrial quantities.

        Not mentioned in the article is the $1M PETA prize for the first person who manages what Post is doing.

        Which is the only thing I can think of PETA (the crazies, not "People for Eating Tasty Animals) has ever done worthy of support. I hope Post wins and manages to collect.

        If the meat industry doesn't go for it, I hope some health food companies take on mass production and distribution.

        For me, methane-free trumps "cruelty-free" and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it.

        Peak Oil is NOW! Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 04:17:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If my GI tract would not produce methane when (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alizard

          eating such fare, I'd be grateful, as would relatives and friends (stalwart souls they be).  There's global warming to abate as well as keeping local fire hazards low.

          When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

          by antirove on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 07:13:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Eat more beans! (4+ / 0-)

    Even if you eat them with meat, eating them will cut down on your meat consumption, improve your cholesterol, and reduce your expenditures at the grocery store.  Some suggestions:

    Chickpeas with coconut milk and curry (lots of veggies)
    Kidney beans (rajma) with tomatoes, cauliflower and spices
    Lentils with bits of ham (for meat lovers) or sliced olives - with chopped onion and celery
    Black beans with diced sweet potato, red onion and a bit of hhoney and ginger
    Refried beans (veggie option) with chopped cilantro and salsa

    www.tapestryofbronze.com

    by chloris creator on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 04:24:12 AM PST

  •  Are there any stats (0+ / 0-)

    on raising/eating chicken as opposed to red meat? Thanks

    •  All animal raising depends on the methods employed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RhodaA

      Raising animals can be done in such a way as to increase the health of the land. Animals provide us many ecosystem services in a well designed system. So, it depends on how the chickens are raised.

      The problem isn't that people want to eat meat. Human desire for ever cheaper & more abundant meat is the problem.

  •  The Heartland Institute (0+ / 0-)

    is the Republican spearhead of "Global Warming Denial".  Heartland is estimating over $4.5MM (including over $600,000 in “Anonymous” contributions)   in donations to fight the "Myth".  It's interesting who is part of Heartland's elite Project Committee on Environment & Climate News.  Below is the Project Committee's participants and their backgrounds in the denial propaganda "News".  (Couldn't identify everyone)

    Environment & Climate News – Project Team
    Major Contributors ($10,000 to $500,000)  

    1.    BB&T (John Allison) ENC
    John Allison was born on August 14, 1948,[1] in Charlotte, North Carolina.[2] He began his career with BB&T in 1971 following his graduation from the University of North Carolina with a degree in business administration.[1][2] He also earned an MBA from the Fuqua School of Business at Duke University[1] in 1974, and since has received an honorary doctorate from East Carolina University and an honorary doctorate from Universidad Francisco Marroquín.[3] He serves on the Board of Visitors of the Fuqua School of Business.[2] He has a wife, Betty, and three children.[1]
    He is a major contributor to the Ayn Rand Institute and assigns Rand's Atlas Shrugged to all of his senior executives.[4] Calling Atlas Shrugged "the best defense of capitalism ever written," Allison has seen to it that "the BB&T Charitable Foundation has given 25 colleges and universities several million dollars to start programs devoted to the study of Rand's books and economic philosophy."[5]
    In 2008, Allison was nominated by MorningStar as one of the best CEOs in 2008 calendar year.
    While CEO of BB&T (Branch Banking & Trust) in 2008, John A. Allison IV earned a total compensation of $4,690,974, which included a base salary of $993,675, a cash bonus of $1,504,303, stocks granted of $995,089, and options granted of $973,800.[6]

    2.    Charles McQuaid ECN

    3.    Contran Corporation  ECN
    Contran is a holding company that owns stakes of varying sizes in subsidiaries, including the largest, Valhi, Inc. (a publicly traded company about 95% controlled by Contran). Primarily through Valhi, the company has stakes in diversified operations in chemicals (NL Industries and Kronos Worldwide); metals (Titanium Metals Corporation); waste management (Waste Control Specialists); and computer support systems, precision ball bearing slides, and security products (CompX International). Contran also holds a controlling interest in Keystone Consolidated Industries, a maker of fencing and wire products. Trusts benefiting chairman Harold Simmons' family (with Simmons as the sole trustee) own 95% of Contran.

    4.    David Herro ECN
    David Herro launched his $5.4 billion Oakmark International fund in September 1992 and since then has achieved strong performance in all market conditions. To maintain this record, David goes shopping for bargain stock wherever that may take him – anywhere in the world. "The best reason to invest overseas," he says, "is to have greater access to undervalued companies. Why limit yourself to just one stock market? When you buy anything from a car to a washing machine, rarely is just one retailer visited. The same should be true for your investments."
    To minimize risk, David puts disciplined stock selection ahead of industry or country selection. "The best way to navigate is to know your course ahead of time. Know the risk factors of the markets, avoid fads or trends and never invest if there's a lack of proper investment or regulatory infrastructure."
    David Herro, CFA, joined Harris Associates (Chicago) in 1992 as an experienced portfolio manager and is now a partner and CIO of international investments. Previously with the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, he has over 16 years of investment experience. David holds a B.Sc.(Business/Economics, ‘83) and an MA (Economics ‘85) from the University of Wisconsin, and is a member of the Financial Analysts Federation.
    David Herro, the financier, who follows climate science as a hobby, said NOAA “lacks credibility”.

    5.    James McWethy ECN

    6.    Kayser Family Foundation ECN
    The Kayser Foundation in Houston, TX is a private company categorized under Clubs (Civic and Social Organizations & Associations)  . Our records show it was established in and incorporated in Texas.
    Services: Rexplex Recreation Club, Armed Forces Recreation Club, Brookside Recreational Club, Rochester Recreation Club and Recreational Sports Clubs.

    7.    Lynde & Harry Bradley Foundation  ECN
    "The Bradley brothers were committed to preserving and defending the tradition of free representative government and private enterprise that has enabled the American nation and, in a larger sense, the entire Western world to flourish intellectually and economically. The Bradleys believed that the good society is a free society. The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation is likewise devoted to strengthening American democratic capitalism and the institutions, principles, and values that sustain and nurture it. Its programs support limited, competent government; a dynamic marketplace for economic, intellectual, and cultural activity; and a vigorous defense, at home and abroad, of American ideas and institutions. In addition, recognizing that responsible self-government depends on enlightened citizens and informed public opinion, the Foundation supports scholarly studies and academic achievement."
    The foundation is a major contributor to the Heartland Institute making a $125,000 donation in 2011. Leaked documents from Heartland Institute suggest that an organization known for attacking climate science is planning a new push to undermine the teaching of global warming in public schools, the latest indication that climate change is becoming a part of the nation’s culture wars.
    The documents, from a nonprofit organization in Chicago called the Heartland Institute, outline plans to promote a curriculum that would cast doubt on the scientific finding that fossil fuel emissions endanger the long-term welfare of the planet.
    “Principals and teachers are heavily biased toward the alarmist perspective,” one document said.
    While the documents offer a rare glimpse of the internal thinking motivating the campaign against climate science, defenders of science education were preparing for battle even before the leak.

    8.    Murray Energy Corporation  ECN
    Murray is the largest privately owned coal company in America, producing approximately 30 million annual tons of bituminous coal that provides affordable energy to households and businesses across the country. We have eight (8) underground and surface mining operations, plus 40 subsidiary and support companies. Transporting coal via truck, rail and waterways, we operate the second largest fleet of longwall mining units in the country. With a support team of 3,000 hard-working, dedicated, and talented employees in six (6) states, Murray Energy Corporation provides efficient, safe, and affordable high-quality coal to the country's leading electric producers, domestically and abroad.
    CEO Robert Murray, has dismissed global warming as “hysterical global goofiness.  Murray also said: "The hysterical and out-of-control climate change or global warming issue, and the legislations  that have been proposed, will lead to the deterioration of the American standard of living and the accelerated exportation of more of our jobs to China and other developing countries, which have repeatedly advised, as recent as last week, that they will not limit their carbon dioxide emissions....

    9.    Nucor Corporation  ECN
    A Fortune 300 company headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina, is one of the largest steel producers in the United States, and the largest of the "mini-mill" operators (those using electric arc furnaces to melt scrap steel, as opposed to companies operating integrated steel works with blast furnaces). Nucor claims to be North America's largest recycler of any material, recycling one ton of steel every two seconds. The total annual steelmaking capacity of the company is 25 million ton.
    Nucor is one of Heartland Institutes largest donors in its fight against global warming. Donating $502,000 in 2011.  

    10.    Searle Freedom Trust ECN
    The Searle Freedom Trust was founded by Daniel C. Searle in 1998 to foster research and education on public policy issues that affect individual freedom and economic liberty. Through its grant making, the foundation seeks to develop solutions to the country’s most important and challenging domestic policy issues.
    Recognizing that good policymaking relies on the availability of high-quality research, the foundation invests primarily in scholarship that results in the publication of books, journal articles, and policy papers. Funding is typically provided in the form of research grants, fellowships, and other types of targeted project support.
    The Searle Freedom Trust also provides funding for public interest litigation and supports outreach to the public through a variety of forums, including sponsorship of research conferences and seminars, film and journalism projects, and new media initiatives.
    Searle Freedom Trust funded "Stossel in the Classroom", gave $1.5 million to AEI in 2009, $96,000 to Americans for Prosperity, and $100,000 to the Heartland Institute, among others. Donors Trust's co-founder and President is Kimberly O. Dennis, who also serves as President of the Searle Freedom Trust.  Kimberly O. Dennis, of the Searle Freedom Trust, a libertarian foundation, suggests that the Kochs are acting against their economic interest in promoting "getting government out of the business of running the economy. If they were truly interested in protecting their profits, they wouldn’t be spending so much to shrink government; they’d be looking for a bigger slice of the pie for themselves. Their funding is devoted to promoting free-market capitalism, not crony capitalism.”

    11.    Stanley Hubbard  ECN
    Stanley S. Hubbard, Chairman and CEO of Hubbard Broadcasting, has been mailing global warming contrarian literature to public schools urging its inclusion in the curriculum, according to the Minnesota Environmental Partnership, which is cited here.
    “Apart from a few clips from the news media  the packet contained only two articles-both from sources that are not peer-reviewed by scientists, one published by the Exxon Mobil-funded Heartland Institute.

    Interestingly, the packets contained no information from the peer-reviewed scientific literature on climate change, nor any information from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report on climate change states clearly that human-induced climate change is unequivocal, and it summarizes in detail the causes for concern and the realistic options for reducing the damage from uncontrolled climate change.”
    Stanley Hubbard has been identified as a major donor to “American Solutions for Winning the Future,” a conservative group that helped support the recent GOP theme of Drill, Baby, Drill during the presidential elections as a way to solve the energy crisis.
    12.    Stuart Family Foundation  ECN
    Is dedicated to transforming the public education and child welfare systems so that all youth can learn and achieve in school and life.
    They are a partner and convener in melding the resources, thinking, and energy necessary to create and sustain system-wide change in California and Washington. They invest in programs and practices that are scalable and sustainable and that inform policy.

    13.    Triad Foundation, Inc. ECN

    Minor Contributors ($2,000 to $9,999)  

    14.    Baldwin Crosstown Animal Clinic ECN

    15.    Bruce Branyan  ECN

    16.    H., Leighton Steward  ECN
    Leighton Steward is a geologist, environmentalist, author, and retired energy industry executive. He has written about the reasons for the loss of much of the Mississippi River Delta (Louisiana’s national treasure) and has given advice on how the nation can achieve “no net loss” of wetlands in the future, advice that has been accepted by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Army Corps of Engineers.
    Steward’s Myth 1: The planet Earth will be healthier with lower CO2 levels.
    He says: More CO2 is needed to bolster plant life, which turns the gas into oxygen while also providing food.
    Steward’s Myth 2: Rising CO2 levels cause temperatures to rise.
    He says: Temperatures over time have fluctuated while CO2 levels have remained steady. What’s more, temperature increases have historically led increases in CO2 levels.
    Steward’s Myth 3: Sea levels will rise 20 feet by the end of the century.
    He says: The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicts only a 17-inch rise, and “most climatologists predict a rise of only 7 or 8 inches.”
    Steward’s Myth 4: Scientists unanimously say that CO2 caused by humans is the dominant cause of global warming.
    He says: Not so. “Many, many reputable scientists believe that natural factors overpower the current influence of CO2 on global warming.”
    Steward’s Myth 5: The United States is the largest contributor of human-caused CO2.
    He says: China, which has no CO2 restrictions, has recently exceeded the United States. Plus, it is “opening a new coal-fired power plant every week, and its production of automobiles is growing at a much more rapid rate.”
    Steward’s Myth 6: Storms are more frequent and intense because of global warming.
    He says: “According to the National Hurricane Center, storms are no more intense or frequent worldwide than they have been since 1850. Temperatures were high in the 1920s and 1930s when there was much less CO2 in the atmosphere. Constant 24-7 media coverage of every significant storm worldwide just makes it seem that way. Insist on the facts, not just what some individuals or reporters say to support their cause.”
    Steward’s Myth 7: Polar bears will go extinct if this warm period continues through the 21st century.
    He says: “A jawbone of a polar bear has been found that is 120,000 years old, a time during the previous interglacial when temperatures were 5 degrees Celsius warmer and sea level 19 feet higher than today. They adapted then; why not now?”
    Steward’s Myth 8: CO2 is a pollutant.
    He says: “CO2 is a great airborne fertilizer, which, as its concentrations rise, causes additional plant growth and causes plants to need less water.”
    Steward’s Myth 9: As Earth warms, the climate will become much drier and windier.
    He says: Ice cores prove the opposite. The colder times were both windier and drier.
    Steward’s Myth 10: Higher levels of CO2 than the current 385 parts per million in the atmosphere are harmful to humans.
    He says: The warning level of CO2 in submarines isn’t reached until the atmosphere has 8,000 parts per million of CO2.

    17.    Jack & Margaret Caveney ECN
    National Republican Trust coordinates with the Republican Party and other conservative groups.  NRT coordinates with the Heritage Foundation, Republican lawmakers, and polluter lobbyists. The organization is registered to a UPS drop box on M Street in Washington DC.  The National Republican Trust is supported by prominent conservatives such as Panduit CEO Jack Caveney.  PANDUIT was founded in 1955 and is headquartered in Tinley Park, Illinois with manufacturing facilities in Costa Rica, China, the Netherlands, and Singapore.  Its products are used by customers in telecommunications, original equipment manufacturer, construction, utility, maintenance and repair operation, office/factory automation, transportation, education, healthcare, finance, government, food/beverage, and wind power industries/markets.

    18.    James Van Pelt  ECN
    James Van Pelt is an American science fiction author who began publishing in the mid-90s

    19.    K. Tucker Andersen  ECN
    K. Tucker Anderson is a large donor to Republican and conservative causes.
    Mother Jone's Coin-op congress reported in 1994 that Tuker and his wife Karen had given $8,450 to Newt Gingrich's campaign committee during the last three elections, an undisclosed amount to the Progress & Freedom Foundation, and $50,000 to Republicans in soft money contributions during the 1993-94 election cycle (source: Common Cause). Andersen has also been a member of the Political Club for Growth, a PAC whose members individually funnel money toward conservative political causes and charities. According to the Reason Foundation's 2000 annual report, Andersen is a "platinumn donor," meaning he individually gave $10,000 or more. It is known that Andersen gave similar amounts in 1997 and 2001.

    20.    Marathon Petroleum Company LLC  ECN
    We recognize and share concerns about climate change and its potential impact on our environment. The use of carbon-based fuels results in the generation of greenhouse gases (GHG) which some believe contribute to climate change. Nevertheless, the use of carbon-based fuels will be required in increasing amounts for the foreseeable future in order to meet the world's growing demand for energy.
    We believe:
    Climate change is a global issue that will require global solutions.
    Research, development, and deployment of innovative and cost-effective technologies are required.
    Improved energy efficiency is an effective and necessary means to conserve resources and mitigate emissions.
    Governmental policies and legislation must be equitable, transparent, and avoid harm to the economy.
    Marathon is, therefore, committed to the following actions that allow us to provide reliable, affordable energy to our customers while minimizing the impact to the environment:
     Strive to improve energy efficiency in our operations with associated GHG emissions mitigation.
    Invest in the research, development, and deployment of cost-effective technologies that reduce the GHG emissions intensity associated with carbon-based fuels.
    Work with governments and other stakeholders to develop technically sound and economically viable policies that protect the environment.
    Report our actions and results, including GHG emissions, to stakeholders.
    While Marathon puts up a good front, it contributed $500,000 to support Prop 23 in California, which would allow more pollution and continues to expand its crude oil facilities in Detroit's “Most Poluted” Zip Code.

    21.    Richard Waterfield ECN

  •  Militant veganism, that's your primary agenda. (0+ / 0-)

    I should've known by user name alone that's where this post would go. It's not about climate science, it's about clinging desperately to anything percieved to support militant veganism.  

    Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

    by JTinDC on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 08:32:45 AM PST

  •  International Initiative is words; no action yet! (0+ / 0-)

    I will believe this is meaningful when the US government backs up its words by taking action.  Surely there are things the Executive could do to reduce emissions of short term climate pollutants by government agencies.  Also, Obama could talk about this and has not.

  •  So they're planning to phase out fossil fuels? (0+ / 0-)

    How real are they?

    "I think the Obama campaign would be taking this populist-sounding tack even if Occupy had never happened." -- Paul Street

    by Cassiodorus on Mon Feb 20, 2012 at 09:56:59 AM PST

  •  If we ended FDA meat inspection/regulation, (0+ / 0-)

    would the public respond by decreasing their consumption?  I know I would.  This might be one way of dealing with climate change that the Republicans would back.

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