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I was asked a question yesterday in a diary not about the subject of nukes and Fukushima, and figure it must be time to log another diary of my own that is to that topic. This will be fairly short, a run-down on what's happening now while I'm working on follow-ups to the Home Health Physics articles about protecting yourself and your family, about reported remedies for exposures in addition to potassium iodide and Prussian Blue. Then I'm planning yet another installment about decontamination of the environment once the dumping's done, which isn't feasible yet in Japan and won't be for the foreseeable future. It will be helpful to people outside Japan, especially to those who homestead and/or farm the land.

The run-down:

1. Another Exelon Executive Admits Non-Viability of Nukes

Following on the heels of ex-CEO of Exelon John Rowe's statements last week that nukes are a bad investment, the current Exelon executive chairman Mayo Shattuck III (sounds like a character from Hitchhiker's Guide) came out a few days later with the not-surprising information that nukes are still entirely incapable of competing in a free market or paying for their own costs and risks. Take-away quote:

"…the sovereign support of the state [is necessary], which really means it's on the backs of the ratepayers, not the backs of shareholders."
Exelon being the biggest nuclear outfit in the United States, people need to pay attention to what these insiders have to say.

2. Many Nuclear States Have No KI Stockpiled

Here's a good one. Turns out that 11 U.S. states hosting nuclear plants - including Illinois, which has more nukes than anybody else - have no stockpiles of potassium iodide on hand in case of accidents. Since KI needs to be taken as soon as possible when iodine-131 is released, this bodes ill for populations living nearby. Who, by NRC reckoning, don't need to be evacuated no matter what. Tough titty, all you 116 million Americans who live within 50 miles of a reactor. You're part of the "National Sacrifice" nukes and our government are willing to make in order to have lots of plutonium in their stockpiles and lots of cash in their pockets.

3. New AEC Released Documents Cast Doubt on GE's Analysis

Newly released documents detailing an exchange between Japan's AEC and DOE highlight the glaring incongruity between GE's insistence that its 'hardened' pressure venting systems at Fukushima "operated as designed" and the fact that four reactor buildings blew up from hydrogen released into THEM instead of out the stacks. Well, DUH. Best part of the highlighted pages are the mention of reactor head bolt "stretching" as an avenue of hydrogen release to the building atmosphere, something Arnold Gundersen outlined early on to explain why the buildings blew sky high. Looks like both the US DOE and Japan's AEC knew the same thing before the end of March, 2011.

4. Japan Polling: 3 of 5 Oppose Nuclear Restarts

A bit of good news in the wake of the massive din of propaganda and Yakuza-enforced arm-twisting in Japan as the last of their reactors nears its scheduled shut-down date. Seems that despite the faith of the crooks in the Japanese government and nuclear industry, the people are displaying a "radical shift" away from nuclear power that will not be so easy to overcome. Good for them! Now we need to do the same thing in this country, only louder because unlike in Japan, our government and nuclear industry doesn't bother to ask us citizens whether or not we want nukes. In Japan they need community approval. Here, they need only enough government subsidies to impose it on whoever's in the way.

That's all I've got for the moment, the floor is yours...

Originally posted to Joieau on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:06 PM PDT.

Also republished by Kosowatt and Nuclear Free DK.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Shortly after the accident, (5+ / 0-)

    Gunderson posted a video analysis in which he diagnosed one of the explosions as a criticality event in a storage pool. I think it was the third explosion, the one with the dramatic video of debris shooting straight up, with no hydrogen-style overpressure wave evident. Do you know whether that assessment was accurate and whether anyone has looked into it since?

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:16:46 PM PDT

    •  We don't have dramatic (7+ / 0-)

      videos of the blow-outs at units 2 or 4, so you're talking unit 3. I honestly haven't been following Arnie's many videos and posts since the beginning, but I'll presume you mean unit 3 - the one where they "discovered" (haha) this week that the 35-ton fueling crane (big thing you saw fly more than 100 feet into the air in that explosion) landed in the spent fuel pool. Meh. Just release of another of the first drone photos from last year (that was held back), telling me only that they knew where the dang crane landed right away, and are trying to divert attention right now from unit 4.

      I honestly don't think the #3 explosion was either predominantly hydrogen, nor originating in the fuel pool. That's purely from analysis of the explosion dynamics and the fact that the crane went straight up and fell straight down. Anything could have ignited built-up hydrogen on the refueling floor, including a flash fission event in the pool, but the power-point of the energy involved appeared to me to be deeper.

      I think that power-point likely originated in the core, or by that time from the drywell. Which if flooded (from pipe breaks and drainage from initial holes in the vessel bottom) would have set off a MASSIVE steam (+ hydrogen) explosion when a significant portion of the corium finished melting through vessel bottom and fell into the water. Would have driven the force straight up rather than "bubble-like" all around as happened with unit 1. Unit 3's blow-out was very, very dirty.

      Yes, a lot of spent fuel pieces-parts blew too (the building atmosphere part of the blow-out), some of it landed more than a kilometer away. Lots was scattered about and had to be remote-bulldozed before workers could even get to the other units. At this time, no one can get close to unit 3, though workers have been accessing units 1, 2 and 4.

      But I'm not an engineer, Arnie is. Who knows? Perhaps we are both right! I could be wrong about the difference between the explosions (and there were several at unit 3), but if you put unit 1's blow-out next to unit 3's, it is clear they were not equivalent.

      •  Goodard's Journal compelling steam explosion (9+ / 0-)

        argument: http://iangoddard.com/...

        The illustrations and animations over the schemata and the actual videos of the explosion and hot spots make sense to this layman.

        Conclusion:
        The multimodal empirical evidence reviewed above demonstrates that (a) plumes of steam, (b) thermal hotspots, (c) explosive forces and (d) a steam-like mushroom cloud all correspond with vectors whose origins converge around the lid of a large container of boiling water known as the containment vessel. Additionally, instrumental measurements show that pressure within the containment vessel dropped suddenly with the explosion (consistent with an explosion from the containment) and that the day before the explosion, water levels failed to rise in the reactor for a long time despite in-flowing water (consistent with water flowing out of the reactor and pooling in the containment vessel). Finally, given the presence of fire in two of the explosive plumes (Figures 4 and 6), the explosion in the containment probably initiated secondary explosions of hydrogen gas accumulated in both containment-vessel space and the upper-deck space above the containment vessel.


        Today, if you exist... that's already suspicious.

        by Jim P on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:58:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  J, could you do a weekly DK Fuku-update post? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, Andhakari, Joieau, Sandino

        You're needed around here to keep us honest, so don't give the 'usual suspects' the satisfaction of having you be absent!

        There are far too few sites that are still consistently posting about the Fukushima nuclear disaster. Moreover, only a handful of established sites are updated multiple times daily: like enformale.com where you are now posting - plus ENENews and Ex-Skf, both of which I've been reading for more than a year.

        I started re-reading Ex-Skf more closely a few weeks ago and I'm finding there's a decidedly hostile tone toward Gundersen, both in the editorials and in the comments. At present, I'm also not seeing a particularly high level of skepticism toward TEPCO. Laprimavera (the Ex-Skf site admin/host/author) is vocally dismissive of renewed concern over the hazards posed by the Unit-4 spent fuel pool. In fact, he's recently written a couple of posts that push-back against the "meme" (his word) that the Unit-4 SFP is currently any worse off than it was last summer when it was "reinforced with steel and concrete" (his words).

        The vast majority of Ex-Skf posts, over the past couple of months, don't deal with impending global catastrophe from ongoing structural deterioration at the site. The focus is on issues of radiation but, oddly, Laprimavera wrote a piece that minimized/ridiculed Gundersen's recent radiation findings from Tokyo. See: Fairewinds' Gundersen Scrapes Soil in Tokyo, Says It's Like Picking Flowers in "Radioactive Waste" (3, 26, 2012).

        NOTE: The comment section of that post also includes a full transcript of the screed that the Nuclear Energy Institute (a nuclear industry lobby group) published in response to the AP's report on Gundersen's work in Tokyo. Ex-Skf's site admin allowed it to stand without question.

        You may recall that Gundersen actually publicly recommended Ex-Skf (and ENENews) last summer. However, something seems to have changed around there at Ex-Skf and I don't think it's for the better. It's disconcerting because I believe it is still perceived as a highly trustworthy site. Maybe I'm expecting too much. Any thoughts?

        "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

        by PreciousLittle on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 07:10:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Oops? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim P, Joieau, blueoasis, Sandino

    Did SCE mislead the NRC at SONGS?

    Arnie Gunderson sure seems to think so!

    Linkie [http://www.voiceofoc.org/...}

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:22:43 PM PDT

    •  Heh. No more than (7+ / 0-)

      Dominion pulled the wool at North Anna last summer. When they 'convinced' the inspectors that merely "eyeballing" things, it amounted to "in-depth inspection of all hardened and non-hardened systems" (NRC posturing to the public).

      This industry regulates itself, basically. We all know the NRC is industry-owned and operated, Jaczko's the sole holdout on most of this stuff (he wasn't an industry insider like the rest), and all that got him was a public circus last December when the commissioners revolted against new rules after Fuku.

      They all lie. To themselves, to the NRC, to the public. Every chance they get.

  •  "The biggest ongoing story in the world today..." (10+ / 0-)

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:32:49 PM PDT

    •  Unfortunately, correct. (6+ / 0-)

      As I pointed out in my diary "a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/15/1065089/-Scientists-Big-One-Building-Beneath-Fukushima">Scientists: 'Big One' Building Beneath Fukushima, they have no time for beating around the bush pretending at busy-work at the Daiichi reservation. SFP #4 is listing heavily and increasingly un-level by the day. There were 20+ earthquakes just yesterday centered close to Daiichi in the 4.3 to 5.9 range. And yes, the groundwater continues to rise.

      The collapse of #4 SFP may be inevitable. They stuck some jacks under the floor last year, but they won't hold in a good shake - bad dynamics. There are more than a thousand fuel assemblies in the pool, and many of them -ARE- the actual core (offloaded before the accident for maintenance). It sits about 50 feet from the common SFP across the dirt road, holding more than 6,000 fuel assemblies. There are still two units with cores and spent fuel pools that can still melt down, melt through, and blow up.

      Moving fuel from #4 is probably impossible at this moment in time. Too damaged, too brittle from overheating, too broken, too melted - too much of a God-Awful mess. They would do better to get the fuel out of the common pool ASAP so that when #4 does come crashing down they can immediately dump the millions of tons of sand, boron and concrete it'll need to be covered with. ASAP. Without having to worry about those 'other' 6,000+ assemblies that are at least mostly intact in an operating situation.

      I have seen exactly ZERO indication that they're bothering with that, either. Though they did demand another trillion yen from the government to pay their Yakuza contractors. The government, of course, will comply.

  •  Regarding stockpiling of KI, (7+ / 0-)

    the linked article states that CA has 1,358,032 on hand.

    In CA,  here are the population numbers (Wiki) within 10 and 50 miles (and I am one of those well within the 50 miles):

    The 2010 U.S. population within 10 miles (16 km) of San Onofre was 92,687, an increase of 50.0 percent in a decade, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data for msnbc.com.

    The 2010 U.S. population within 50 miles (80 km) was 8,460,508, an increase of 14.9 percent since 2000. Cities within 50 miles include San Diego (45 miles to city center).[15]  

    Obviously in order to serve the 8,460,508 people w/i 50 miles, they would need to increase their KI tablet inventory by a little over six (6) times the amount they now have.

    So to suggest that we are sacrificial lambs of the industry is entirely appropriate.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:33:51 PM PDT

    •  nothing to bleat about, really (6+ / 0-)
      State lawmakers, alarmed that the facility's reactors could melt down if they prove unable to withstand an earthquake along one or more of the area's four little-understood faults, passed a measure in 2009 requiring PG&E to perform extensive seismic surveys. The legislation was vetoed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, but after last years earthquake-induced nuclear meltdown at the Fukushima Daiichi plant in Japan, the worst since Chernobyl, PG&E, under public pressure, announced that it was committed to completing the studies.
      http://www.nytimes.com/...

      You can trust PG&E to make sure nothing bad happens.

    •  Well, you know it might (5+ / 0-)

      create some public tension about 'favoritism' if they only passed out KI to people living within 3 miles of a melting reactor. That was the reason they refused to distribute ANY KI in the wake of Three Mile Island - it might make people think there was a problem.

      So I'd have to take the sure bet and suspect strongly that they would never pass out KI to anybody but themselves, no matter what. FEMA will get theirs, local and state officials and first responders will get theirs too. Everybody else is on their own with thyroid cancer.

      •  Is it something one can buy on the open market? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cotterperson, Joieau, Simplify

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 02:13:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've never tried, (5+ / 0-)

          but have seen it for sale on various meds-online sites. So I'm guessing it's not as hard to come by as Prussian Blue. If I lived within 50 miles of a nuke, I'd keep some on hand in the first aid/go kit (along with the Home Health Physics handbook). You'll want to start taking as soon as you hear it's got a problem - any kind that might involve a release.

          They will ALWAYS tell you there's "No Danger To The General Public." Literally, it could have melted and blown fuel rods a mile away (like at Fukushima) and they'd tell you the same damned thing. Worse, there's absolutely NO indication that any residents would ever be evacuated no matter how bad the accident is. It has never happened in this country, though advisories to the 3-mile crowd are fairly common.

          For the regular, ordinary daily releases of fission products (including iodine) into the air and water, I'd suggest careful attention to good natural sources of iodine in your diet. Seafood and seaweed are great high-iodine sources, iodized salt not so much but better than non-iodized. A mixed supplement high in iodine (available just about anywhere) too, just to make sure. Such supplements also tend to be high in potassium and calcium, which it's also a good idea to have plenty of in your system. Natural sources are sometimes easier to absorb, so I'd look for those.

  •  Japan is stepping up alternative energy (9+ / 0-)

    http://www.technologyreview.com/...

    Japan is a laggard on renewable energy, ranking well below the top 10 countries in both annual installations of renewable equipment and total renewable generating capacity. That, however, is set to change under a new energy policy that's been taking shape since last year's meltdowns at Fukushima.
    •  Good for them! (8+ / 0-)

      I applaud and encourage the rebellion of the Japanese people against this Industry of Death. Who better than them, all things historical be told? It also represents a significant push-back on the increasing corruption of their government and society, and just might let them lead the way.

      Nobody's got better minds or more inventive imagination than the Japanese, though there are great minds and inventive imaginations everywhere. Their industrial prowess is so impressive that they could easily become the world's biggest producers of alternative technologies, and the world is desperate for these now that it's clear there can be no "Nuclear Renaissance."

      I hope they go for it big time.

  •  Commercial reactors don't fuel nuclear weapons (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Simplify, FG, bryfry

    You write:

    You're part of the "National Sacrifice" nukes and our government are willing to make in order to have lots of plutonium in their stockpiles and lots of cash in their pockets.

    Plutonium for nuclear weapons does not come from commercial reactors, as implied by the above--it comes from reactors designed specifically to breed plutonium (see Hanford, etc.)  Plutonium found in spent nuclear fuel from commercial reactors is 'contaminated' with isotopes that make it unusable for nuclear weapons.  To produce weapons-grade Pu a commercial reactor would have to swap fuel rods way to often to be commercially viable.

    Right now there is a glut of weapons-grade Pu in the world, due to decommissioning of Cold War era weapons--the challenge is to safeguard/dispose of what we've got, not to make more.

    Obama is still my guy.

    by AKguy on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 02:06:20 PM PDT

    •  True. But if the public were outraged enough (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, PreciousLittle

      so that commercial nukes were gone, do you really believe they'd think having nuclear weapons would be ok?  I think not.

    •  Not going to get distracted (2+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      PreciousLittle, Sandino
      Hidden by:
      Swampfoot

      into a pointless debate about the history of the technology, the treaties and secret agreements that kept (and still keep) it exclusive to "The Club" due to proliferation issues (Iran, anyone?), or even the fact that the good old Cold War's over now and there's no more excuses for these beasties at all.

      It's over, the industry needs to get used to it. Exelon already has, and they're the Big Boyz on the deployment end. Don't worry. The waste is still deadly for at least 10,000 years, Fukushima is still the biggest mess the planet's ever seen, and there will always be work for nukes shutting these things down, cleaning them up, and securing waste that never should have been generated in the first place.

      •  Nuclear 'waste' can mostly be burnt up... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arroganceisstrength, Swampfoot

        ...in molten salt reactors, a much safer, more efficient technology that has languished since being prototyped back in the '50s and '60s.  The very long lived components of the nuclear waste stream are mostly the transuranics (plutonium, neptunium, etc) which could help fuel molten salt reactors.  The fission products (cesium, strontium, etc) mostly decay away much faster, and have almost completely disappeared withing 2-300 years.  These are the 'deadly' parts--very radioactive, because of short half-lives.

        In any event, spent nuclear fuel contains most of the potential energy it had when it went into the reactor (since solid-fuel reactors can only use a small fraction of the fuel before build-up of fission products shuts down the reaction).  We should burn it up, not bury it.

        Obama is still my guy.

        by AKguy on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 03:29:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "2-300 years" aka 6 to 12 generations (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, S F Hippie, blueoasis, Andhakari

          in ordinary-mortal speak.


          Today, if you exist... that's already suspicious.

          by Jim P on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 04:12:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Nope. You're talking a (4+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          PreciousLittle, S F Hippie, Andhakari, Sandino
          Hidden by:
          Swampfoot

          desperately hoped-for future that's never going to happen (don't even have a prototype in operation, do you?) versus We the People having awakened to the true dangers these ridiculous overkill water-boilers present. We're done with it. So is Wall Street. So are Germany, probably Japan, and Italy (among others). So is Siemens. Arvida's not looking all that energetic these days either, nor does Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.

          We believe more in our ability - with motivation and support - to do much, much better for the future, than we believe in your pet industry's wet dreams. We won't be fooled again, none of us ever really liked nukes to begin with. Just went along because that was the lockstep post-WWII thing to do in the biggest boom the world had ever seen. That was more than 50 years ago, those people are dying off quickly. Now you're going to have to deal with the "Duck and Cover" boomers.

          Reality. Put your so-touted brilliance and superb engineering to work on something renewable and honestly non-polluting. Surely the kind of Earth-Shattering Eggheads who discovered and developed nukes can be counted upon to invent the REAL next step, right? Why do y'all love to smash atoms so much? Why can't you think of anything else?

          •  Swampfoot, I think (3+ / 0-)

            you may have hit the wrong ratings button? Just asking because I've re-read this comment and the one above, and see nothing that warrants a hide-rate.

            HR'ing for mere disagreement with an expressed opinion is frowned upon around here. If you wish to argue, present your position and I may (or may not) get around to addressing it. Tomorrow. If it's a mistake, you can re-click the hide rate to remove. Thanks.

            •  Heh ... you're one to talk (0+ / 0-)

              Let's not forget who had her ratings abilities taken away by Kos himself last fall for an inappropriate HR.

              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
              -- Albert Einstein

              by bryfry on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 04:46:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  At least she still has her stalkers (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau, PreciousLittle

                Did you miss the '2 wrongs don't make a right' day in kindergarten?

                •  The irony being: (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino, Joieau, PreciousLittle

                  Guess who got his ratings ability pulled for uprating an insult last year? None other than... the self-described "aspiring assholyte" bryfry. As I recently wrote: Rovian tactics - accusing others of what one has been verifiably guilty of. Then he gets all bent out of shape when I declare that I doubt he is a Democrat - the reaction was quite entertaining  :-D

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

                  by translatorpro on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 06:25:23 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Markos took out some trash (3+ / 0-)

                    last week, including one of "the usual suspects" who usually troll my diaries. Most of his sockpuppets too, which is semi-extraordinary. His mistake was to be non-specific in his trolling behaviors, hitting a variety of group topics instead of sticking with the paid-to-plays.

                    My 2-week suspension occurred for attempting to control the troll invasion after Markos told us all we could do so in group diaries (part of the new 'group' function as originally envisioned). Then he changed his mind and went back to the old "don't HR trolls in your own diaries" thing again, didn't bother to warn anybody about it first. You'll have this wherever the 'roolz' for moderation are arbitrary and diarists/group members are not allowed to identify and eliminate deliberate disruptors.

                    I did check out Swampfoot's profile, doesn't seem to to be a troll and I haven't seen him in my diaries before, so I'm presuming the HRs are a mistake. He didn't explain himself (or post at all), and since the comments obviously weren't HR-able, I'll give him the benefit of doubt.

                    •  I remember that incident, there was (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PreciousLittle, Joieau, Sandino

                      some confusion about the new rules, because Kos was laying down the law somewhat (seemingly) haphazardly at the time, as he went along. I think he only then realized what a tough job it is to pull up the right weeds and  - unfortunately - pulled up a few flowers with them.

                      „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

                      by translatorpro on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 10:18:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah, MB had gone on hiatus (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PreciousLittle, Sandino

                        and the trolls went wild. In a series of diaries about taking control of the situation (and promising to be entirely arbitrary), Markos seemingly gave carte blanche to the rapidly forming interest groups to moderate their own group diaries so as to eliminate the disruptions from troll/stalkers.

                        So I started doing just that, and other group members helped. Bry-guy complained, so Markos NR'd the whole lot of us . The bad behavior continues unabated, now we know we can't HR what has ALWAYS been HR-able so long as the subject is nukes. The very fact he's allowed to do this without reprisal tells me somebody's probably paying for his privilege. NEI is pouring millions into the PR effort, after all. It's not all 30-second cartoon ads.

                        The same carte blanche does NOT exist for Black Kos, GUS, IGTNT, RKBA and other topical groups. Not just gross personal insults, but also repeated attempts over a period of years to 'out' my real life identity that would anywhere else constitute stalking and get him banhammered post haste. So it is what it is. Guess we should feel flattered for our topic's 'alternative' status.

                        •  Oh, this is classic (0+ / 0-)

                          Your ego knows no bounds, does it? So, it's all about you ... yet again.

                          I find it hilarious that you accuse me of getting away with something, when here you have insulted both this site and its publisher by insinuating that they are somehow in my pay. Are you serious?!

                          I'm sorry to burst your bubble, Joy, but I never complained to Kos about you. As for what got you into trouble, it was for HR'ing a comment of mine that Kos described as "the very definition of civil."

                          Perhaps you have been in the business of insulting and insinuating so long that you've forgotten the meaning of civility.

                          Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
                          -- Albert Einstein

                          by bryfry on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 02:30:39 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Clueless (0+ / 0-)
                    Rovian tactics - accusing others of what one has been verifiably guilty of.
                    You do know the difference between a hide rate and an uprate, don't you?

                    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
                    -- Albert Einstein

                    by bryfry on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 08:14:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Civilian Reactors have long even part of weapons (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, PreciousLittle

      procurement.  Not necessarily in the US, but in most of the world. The current fascination with the dangerous MOX fuel is due to the need to reprocess old plutonium and make a buck.  Civilian nuclear power is only economically viable with huge subsidies from the state, which are paid because of the military value of plutonium stockpiles.

  •  As a solar installer, this particularly pisses me (8+ / 0-)

    off:

    Exelon executive chairman Mayo Shattuck III (sounds like a character from Hitchhiker's Guide) came out a few days later with the not-surprising information that nukes are still entirely incapable of competing in a free market or paying for their own costs and risks. Take-away quote:

        "…the sovereign support of the state [is necessary], which really means it's on the backs of the ratepayers, not the backs of shareholders."

    I am constantly being told that RE (particularly solar) is unsustainable economically as the industry receives tax incentive moneys....

    "I can't do it by myself. No president can. Remember: Change doesn't happen from the top. It happens because of you." B Obama, 2008

    by nzanne on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 03:02:18 PM PDT

    •  Nuclear power flat out (7+ / 0-)

      couldn't exist if shareholders (utilities and their stockholders) had to bear the costs of licensing, construction, insurance, operation, decommissioning and long-term waste storage. This industry is the absolute epitome of "privatize the profits, socialize the risks."

      Solar proponents and wannabe manufacturers/deployers need to make a big issue of this, because nuclear is AGAIN (as always) hedging its bid for the lion's share of energy subsidies for this planned "renaissance." They want it all, will settle for at least half of what's left after Big Oil gets its share. They have dozens of clever deceptions and distractions they use like shields to defend themselves, but the cross-connected joints are weak. Go for their greedy little hearts.

  •  To Precious Little - (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PreciousLittle, Sandino

    To your point here, there does seem to be an anti-Arnie push lately in places where it wouldn't automatically be expected (EX-SKF, enenews, probably elsewhere).

    You mentioned that the EX-SKF admin seems to be in support of the campaign, and I mentioned enenews admin as apparently fighting back. Apart from what I've seen as personal observation of the exchanges at enenews (don't visit EX-SKF much anymore) about who's a closet shill and who are genuinely useful sources, the campaign has been entirely obvious. I don't think it's difficult to understand.

    Arnie's become the kindly, grandfatherly, calm yet knowledgeable "face" for the public to turn to for information that's not automatically suspected to be lies. He may not always be right about this detail or that, but he's always honest and gives his evaluation without emotional baggage or exhortations to panic. A large segment of the public has come to trust him, and part of that is because he's been so visible and accessible.

    The nuclear lobbies launched yet another multi-million dollar PR campaign just last month, in time for the first anniversary of Fukushima Daiichi. Nuclear PR isn't mostly - or even considerably - composed of happy sunshine and rainbows cartoons run every 12 minutes during a television show (like, say, Jon Stewart's Daily Show). Quite a lot of it goes to foot the bill for literally hundreds of pro-nuclear "trolls" who can be counted upon to either parrot talking points or simply disrupt online discussions that don't praise the nuclear Beast. A lot of these are smart-alec college kids earning ten bucks a post for pizza and beer, and who got their professional starts trolling chat rooms and forums across cyberspace beginning when they were about 12.

    Some of them are pretty good. They can ultimately discredit entire lines of thought about Fukushima and/or nuclear power by feeding bullshit into the conversation, they fanning any flames that start from the sparks. While still maintaining an ostensive "anti-nuclear," horrified by Fukushima persona in the group. There are other methodologies, but this is about the most insidious. Propaganda and Psy-Ops are actual, literal art forms these days.

    …and in the end, some folks with notable voices can simply be bought off or effectively silenced in 'the usual' Yakuza-style ways. Nuclear power is the most powerful criminal enterprise on the planet. And it's just a now-visible tentacle of the Ultimate Squid.

    We could expect nothing less than an instant replay of the kind of character assassination that made 'em so notorious in the first place. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever the nukes spend a lot of time, money and energy attacking public figures who speak out against them, it just makes the target more worth paying attention to. I take everything with a large salt-lick handy, from either 'side'. But I don't see that much to object to with Arnie's handling so far of Daiichi's Great Big ProblemS.

    •  J, While you were writing down here... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, semiot, Sandino

      I was re-writing a comment for you up toward the top of the thread. Have a peek.

      What you just said about Yakuza-style tactics for co-opting opposition is chilling. For expedience Wiki's definition will serve:

      Yakuza, also known as gokudō, are members of traditional organized crime syndicates in Japan. The Yakuza are very prevalent in the Japanese media and operate internationally with an estimated 80,900 members in 2009, the last year for which an estimate is available.
      NEWS FLASH: Mainichi Daily News, the English news site of Mainichi Newspapers, was officially merged into the Japanese-language Mainichi news site on April 5, 2012. (Here is the announcement that's currently posted at Mainichi Co. regarding the changes.)

      The Mainichi is still posting current stories in English, although the English edition is now a mere shadow of its former self. More importantly, until a few days ago, the entire English-language archive of Mainichi Daily News stories on Fukushima (both very old and very new) were still readily accessible. But now, none of the URLs work; and the stories don't connect when they are Google-searched, nor when they are searched internally by title on the Mainichi website. Likewise, none of the existing links to Mainichi's previous English-language stories are working on numerous Fukushima blogs that I read. I assume, the links are also screwey for every other media entity that has linked to Mainichi Daily News stories over the past year. This is a tremendous loss, as that site was widely regarded as the most independent of the English-language news outlets in Japan.

      CASE IN POINT: On April 2, 2012, Mainichi Daily News ran a column by their Senior Expert Writer, Taka Yamada: "In Light of Further Nuclear Risks, Economic Growth Should Not be Priority". This particular article was widely disseminated and widely discussed; especially within the context of a renewed sense of urgency about the special hazards posed by Reactor No. 4 and the spent fuel pools. On April 5, 2012, all existing links to that column became defunct and are now directed to a Japanese-language page. See, for instance this link at Fukushima Green Action. Good luck navigating once you're routed to the Mainichi home page.

      I tried to get some attention to this matter at Ex-Skf. Initially, it seemed strange that the demise of Mainichi Daily News was not greeted with surprise there, nor was it greeted as an unwelcome turn of events. Eventually, it became clear that Ex-Skf had NO love, whatsoever, for Mainichi Daily News. Note, I was able to retrieve a couple of Mainichi stories by using a special search protocol that is not at all user-friendly or self-evident. Maybe they're 'working' to improve it. Meanwhile, majorly bummed here.

      "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

      by PreciousLittle on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 08:36:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I liked Mainichi even more (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandino, PreciousLittle

        than EX-SKF through the past year, and it's been infinitely more reliable a source than Kyodo. Checked it every day for at least six months, often more than once or twice. So I'm sorry to hear they've been clamped, if that is indeed what is afoot. Will keep an eye on that, thanks for the heads up.

        Your source on the Yakuza neglected to mention the serial corruption of the Japanese government itself, which has gotten so bad that leadership comes and goes with enough regularity to make a Frenchman dizzy. And the French know a thing or two about revolving leadership (and Constitutions), believe me.

        But then again, look around. They're pretty much all corrupt these days. Maybe they always have been, but people didn't notice it as readily or do anything about it. Kan's going full-tilt anti-nuclear now, I've read. Perhaps on that stage he can accomplish more than he could taking on the Yakuza/nukes directly in the Big Arena. Who knows?

        •  Mainichi Daily News WAS a top-notch operation... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau

          Meaning the English-language edition we've all been reading for the past year. Their post-merger, downsized website is a nightmare now, looks like a nickle and dime operation by comparison. I wonder if their Japanese-language edition also took a major hit.

          BTW, tonight Ex-Skf has subtly doubled-down on spreading the news that things are looking up, albeit "slowly", at Reactor 4 -- sort of a static time-lapse photo deal (weird). See: Fukushima I Nuke Plant Reactor 4's Slowly Changing Look: Photos from March 2011 to March 2012. Feast your eyes.

          "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

          by PreciousLittle on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 10:44:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They have been doing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PreciousLittle

            'stuff' at unit 4 for awhile now. Workers have been "beam-walking" along the wall at refueling floor level, going up and down, looking busy. Now that most of the crumbling exterior wall panels have been removed we can presume the dose rates aren't immediately deadly. "Airing out" the building no doubt helps with that.

            I hadn't heard they were able to remove the crane, but if it was threatening to fall into the pool it's good they got it first. Whatever the plan is for the fuel in that pool, they'd need direct access for an exterior crane. They can't have that or worker access when they build the tent, which is apparently the next step.

            Without a refueling crane they CAN'T cask the assemblies underwater. The assemblies are in bad shape, in various states of brittle, broken, melted/empty and/or crushed by debris. Exposed to air they'll burn, be emitting immediately deadly radiation even before that. I see no indication they've got a stockpile of shielded, flooded port-a-casks to put the fuel pieces/chunks into even if they could just grab a bunch with a remote control crane-shovel. Hence the tent, not the unloading of fuel assemblies.

            ...and the common SFP is still right across the road, chock full of spent fuel. It probably still has a working crane and transfer pit. Surely they know it should be emptied first. But at least they're checking the level.

            •  J, what does TEPCO mean by... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau

              "Levelness of the water" in the Reactor 4 SFP? How do those findings help determine the "health of the building"?

              Based on the quotations, I still can't tell what they're even measuring there, or why. We all know how useful it is to have spokespeople obfuscate and play with semantics, and here there's the added assurance that lots of info will get lost in translation altogether.

              Moreover, how low have expectations fallen, when the photos (foregoing comment) are used to 'assure' the public that progress is being made.

              "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

              by PreciousLittle on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 09:12:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Water level measuring (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, PreciousLittle

                will tell them how much the pool - and possibly the containment wetwell - are listing. Relative to true vertical/horizontal, or relative to each other. I take it the wetwell is still flooded, or at least holding water. Which is more than we can say about units 1, 2 and 3.

                Water is always going to be level. Fluid dynamics. Thus if the levels on one side of the pool are inches closer to the lip than levels on the other side, the pool itself is tilted. From the measurements reported, this is the case. Worse, the pool is tilted relative to the wetwell too. This can account for much of the leakage, as it means ripped welds.

                The stresses on the physical structure of the pool - loaded to the hilt with fresh and spent fuel NOT checkerboarded as well as megatons of water - are considerable, and if it's tilted, not straight down on whatever jacks or remaining structural support is there. They could try jacking more on the low side, but that could further exacerbate the breaks at the wetwell, maybe cause an entire side of the pool to collapse - losing all the water. If they leave it tilted as-is, the multiple daily earth-shakes will tend to 'slosh' things in the direction of the tilt and it'll continue to tilt ever more until the whole thing flips over on its side and collapses/spills outside the building ruins. On the common pool side, btw. A tent wouldn't do a thing to prevent that, it would just take the wall with it.

                If they are not well prepared to hit the pile with the necessary tonnage of sand, boron and concrete when it does fall, the cladding will burn and the fuel will melt out in the open, forcing evacuation - and that means abandoning the common pool and maybe units 5 & 6 as well. These as well as what's left of units 1, 2 and 3 SFPs will burn/melt.

                •  J, that's a perfect and elegant (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino, Joieau

                  description of the process and the intent. I'm still stymied by the numbers though. Waah!

                  "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

                  by PreciousLittle on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 06:26:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Lucas posted (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    PreciousLittle

                    a brief (press release) with good diagrams today on what TEPCO's got planned for #4 SFP - Preparing to prepare - that might help for visualizing what they're planning to prepare for. If just thinking about their weasel wording doesn't make you dizzy.

                    If you've got a short glass, try filling it to within a centimeter or so of the lip and set it next to a similar sized box. Now tilt the glass just a bit so the water almost spills. You'll see the water is still perfectly level even though the whole set-up is askew. If you put something under one side of the glass to keep it in that position, then vibrate the table a bit with a bit of a hit or shake, you'll see that the water will "want" to slosh over the lip on the high side. Not hard to see that if this keeps happening, the whole glass will tip over.

                    Hope that helps!

                    •  I see why TEPCO is measuring the water "level"... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Joieau

                      At the time of the cooling system failure, on April 12, 2012, they measured the water "level" (the water depth) in the Unit-4 Spent Fuel Pool to determine two things: whether there is less water in the pool; and whether the "level" (the angle) of the pool is any worse than it was when they measured it on February 7, 2012.

                      It's the Result Data that I can't interpret. For instance, the top line on the chart:  

                      Reactor Well 1, SFP 5 - Previous Data (February 7, 2012): 462 mm. This time Data (April 12, 2012): 476 mm. This time Data (April 12, 2012): 468 mm.

                      Is TEPCO saying their results show that the depth of the water and the angle of Unit-4 SFP is the same now as it was in February?

                      More importantly, does the above data tell us  the actual angle of tilt on the SFP?

                      Thanks for your patience with this!

                      "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

                      by PreciousLittle on Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 10:02:09 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  This is one of those times (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PreciousLittle

                        when you need to look PAST the confident pronouncements and read 'between the lines'. Notice that the level at outlet 1 from the well is higher than the other three well readings. Also notice the varying levels at outlets 1-4 in February, compared to the relatively even levels now (more water in the system generally). Unless repeated earthquakes over the last two months have somehow UN-tilted the attitude - immensely unlikely - that little qualifier they added about "measurement error due to rubbles" has simply been zeroed out because it's convenient to do so.

                        The levels in the SFP points 5-8 also look to be zeroed out to look level (which of course the water IS), and they didn't bother to reproduce the February data on those. Probably because they are even more divergent.

                        Remember that the water is ALWAYS going to be level. That is its natural state no matter how tilted the container may be (until it spills out). The amount of 'rubble' at the bottom of the pool makes exactly NO difference at all to the level of the water at the top. Moreover, the 'other' qualification on the curvature of the well liner is also entirely meaningless. The shape of the container also has NO effect on the level of the water at the surface.

                        The only thing these arbitrarily evened-out measurements tell us is that gravity still works and there's more water in the system than there was since February. And gravity may prove to be Fuku-4's ultimate downfall. And I mean that literally.

                        •  Oy. Did TEPCO ever release any past (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Joieau

                          data about the degree of tilt on the Unit #4 SFP? Like before and/or after 'reinforcing' it last summer. Have outside observers made specific calculations about this? Or is it a matter of common-sense and eye-balling the ruins?

                          As you may know, the words "leaning", "listing", and "falling down" are a point of ongoing contention, especially at Ex-Skf. The discussion is, strangely, more focused on lampooning those terms than on the fact that the whole unit is FUBAR.

                          "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

                          by PreciousLittle on Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 01:19:04 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, there's of course (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PreciousLittle

                            the general state of public denial by TEPCO and the Japanese government (all levels). Getting accurate data is like pulling teeth, and contamination levels (in dose/dose rate) from the facility to all the many populated areas OUTSIDE the exclusion zone - as well as to the ocean - are almost invariably off by factors of ten.

                            But they do release some data about what's happening at the plants. The unit 2 endoscopies, for instance. And now the levels of unit 4's SFP. Which has been regularly noted to be listing (along with the exterior wall that -IS- one of its long-sides. I've seen the degree calculations off vertical in a few places from months ago, but am too busy right now to go looking for it.

                            What we're getting are water surface levels. From the ground floor (but not on the enenews graphic), and from the lip in millimeters (enenews graphic). And conveniently missing an entire data set from February on that one. When the FukuCams were showing worker activity along that wall every day for weeks. I don't believe they didn't measure points 5-8 in that evolution.

                            What this data tells us is that the top of the water 5 stories up is horizontal to the ground. Duh. Have you ever seen still water anywhere on or above the ground that wasn't horizontal in relationship to the center of gravity (middle of the earth)? Neither has anybody else.

                            And there is no excuse for the 'adjustments' to actually measured level (from lip in millimeters) of the pool due to some nutty bullshit about DEBRIS IN THE POOL. No amount of debris in the pool is ever going to affect the levelness of the water's surface once it's in there. Trust me on this.

                          •  J, love this long skinny exchange. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            The info you've given me in your very generous series of responses is the only meaningful discussion I have seen, thus far, of the whole "water level measuring" fiasco. Perhaps you can use your foregoing text and put it toward a future diary inclusive of this subject.

                            At any rate, I now feel better-equipped to get a handle on this particular element at Unit #4.

                            A million thanks as always for your time and expertise.

                            "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

                            by PreciousLittle on Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 04:27:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I recall a few years ago (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PreciousLittle

                            'they' (the astrophysics community) came up with a brilliant plan to measure the "speed of gravity waves" during a conjunction of Jupiter with some extremely massive but far-away object. Physicists from all over the world participated, the results were anxiously awaited.

                            They 'discovered' that gravity moves at the speed of light.

                            Then for some obscure reason, someone took another look at the data - and spurred others to do so as well - and 'discovered' that the only thing the experiment COULD have measured was the speed of light. As in how long it took for us to record a perturbation of the attitude of Jupiter from said conjunction, NOT how long it took for the distant object to cause the perturbation.

                            Sometimes it's the simple things that end up laying waste to the most complicated of human plans. One need not be a brilliant physicist to see what's going on here. They're just hoping (against hope) that you're too intimidated by their authority to ask the right questions.

                            Whenever you detect such a dynamic, you're dealing with lies. Whether you ask the right questions or not.

                          •  The CliffsNotes version (0+ / 0-)

                            for those who can't be bothered to read a clumsy description of an obscure, but controversial experiment:

                            Ignorance trumps knowledge, and anything that contradicts this is a lie.

                            It should be obvious to anyone with any sense why this position should be favored by members of the Nuclear Free DK group.

                            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
                            -- Albert Einstein

                            by bryfry on Tue Apr 17, 2012 at 09:06:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bry can you give me the non-CliffsNotes version... (0+ / 0-)

                            of that experiment? I'm open to hearing a more elaborate explanation if you've got one, in your own words.

                            I'm being serious here now, I'm not just poking at you with a stick, although that's what you do to Joieau -- ad infinitum. Your bullying behavior, toward a knowledgeable, outspoken, courageous woman is making you look petty, small-minded, jealous and shrill. You are giving off the taint of a deep-seated misogyny.

                            If you were harassing a person of color, in a similar manner, here at DK, your ass would be grass, and rightfully so. Failing that man, please try to save yourself from yourself. I can't bear to go on cringing for you.

                          •  My comment (0+ / 0-)

                            was not a CliffsNotes version of the experiment; it was CliffsNotes version of Joy's comment. If you're actually interested about the experiment itself and the various interpretations of the results, feel free to read the papers yourself. They're available online without charge:

                            The Experiment

                            The Criticism

                            The Rebuttal

                            More on the Lorentz Covariant Theory of Light Propagation

                            I doubt, however, that Joy understood any of the technical points that the physicists disagree about. No, to her, this is just an excuse to unfairly attack all experts, which I find particularly disturbing. I'm not here to say that experts don't make mistakes, but her attitude goes beyond mere mistakes into conspiracy-theory territory.

                            Courageous? You must be kidding me! It takes no courage to post nonsense semi-anonymously on the Internet. There is no nobility in making outrageous claims without even one shred of solid evidence.

                            If she were more important she might be sued for libel for some of the things she publishes here. However, she knows that she is too unimportant, so she is free to say whatever she wants, with only the likes of me to counter the disinformation. That's not very brave.

                            You want to talk about bullying?! Ha! I had to laugh out loud at that one. If you want to see bullying, try playing devil's advocate sometime and post some criticisms of the Nuclear Free DK diaries. You'll learn what real bullying is.

                            A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
                            -- Dryden

                            by bryfry on Thu Apr 19, 2012 at 05:18:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hi Bry, see my reply at bottom of thread. n/t (0+ / 0-)
                          •  J, thanks for playing ace in the hole! n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  Joieau Thanks this should be front page (4+ / 0-)

      I have been waiting for another of your reports.  You and Arnie are the only ones I see reporting on this possible end of the world as we know it scene
       I just checked the front page, wreck list etc.  nothing there is as important or rare.  I've signed in first time in a long time to T&R you.  Please keep at it
        I wish dKos would get behind this issue and require some action.  Just because nothing else in this country seems to be noticing how bad nasty this Fukushima  thing is.
         

    •  Agreed, foolknot... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, Joieau

      Interest in this subject HAS to be sustained and rekindled here at DK. This mustn't be allowed to go down the memory hole.

      I come here daily to see if there is something new on Fuku. My strategy: I search for "Joieau" in the comments section. If anything's posted, she's on it. I'm a groupie, not a stalker!

      "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

      by PreciousLittle on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 11:02:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  J, Thanks for opening the blinds again... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau

    See y'all in the Monday PM.

    "All the tales of miracles, with which the Old and New Testament are filled, are fit only for impostors to preach and fools to believe." ~ Thomas Paine

    by PreciousLittle on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 11:07:17 PM PDT

  •  Bry, I just looked at the info in... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau

    the links you posted for "The Measurement of the Light Deflection from Jupiter" experiment. Those are useful references, but I'd say one needs a hefty background in physics to grock it. I don't have that background, but Joieau clearly does. I don't know whether you do, as you didn't attempt to discuss the information. You said:

    I doubt that Joy understood any of the technical points that the physicists disagree about.
    If you won't back up this dismissal with a better explanation of your own, you are not "countering disinformation" -- you are interjecting yourself into the conversation for no reason other than to bully and harass Joieau -- as you frequently do.

    When I was drafting my initial comment to you, I wrote that there is nothing “manly” about your conduct toward Joieau. I ended up deleting that portion before I posted because, I thought, maybe it's beside the point. But I looked at your profile just now and I see that it is entirely on point.

    On your Profile Page, BryFry, you give two descriptors of yourself: "Pragmatism to the extreme. Aspiring assholyte". Moreover, there's  an 'aspirational' retro advertisement off to the side; a macho Mad Men character with the caption: "Being An Asshole Is All Part Of My Manly Essence". This I do understand since my area of work is, primarily, in cultural theory and media studies. So, you are evidently a fan of the late 1950s, early 1960s era. I'm a huge fan of the aesthetics of that period but my admiration pretty much ends right there. It was a time when a generation of men were scared shitless that women would cease to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen; when male insecurity went into overdrive and assholery toward women reigned supreme: in the bedroom and the boardroom and the bar.

    Fortunately, there were also men of that generation who had a genuine core confidence that enabled them to take an uncommon stand against the rising tide of assholery. My own father was a case in point. He was a life-long hard-rock miner (iron ore) and a carpenter by trade; a war veteran without a high school diploma, who became a proponent of peace and went on to marry my mother, a college-educated woman working in the field of education. Theirs was the most loving and mutually respectful relationship I have ever seen, to this day. By example, he taught his three sons and his daughter what it meant for him to be a “man” in a world where women were coming into their own.

    To complete the picture, my father had those classic chiseled features and, physically, he looked the part of those guys in a retro ad. But in terms of how he conducted himself in his life, he put those Mad Men weasels to shame. He was calm, cool, and collected; a thoroughly grounded and humble man, who was completely assured of his own worth in the world. He had remarkable composure and fortitude in the face of any hardship throughout his life: the sudden loss of an infant child; my mother's losing battle with Parkinson's disease; multiple moves in search of work; and multiple mining accidents ending in long-term disability. Yet, he maintained an even strain, right up to the moment death came for him. I know because I was there.

    I think you would have liked my father, Bry. He was the most "manly" man I ever expect to meet and he was a pragmatist through and through. He was a man of few words, but if he were here he would make it known that a man shouldn't go down the road of macho in-your-face assholery -- unless he intends to come off as a weak and insecure fool. I don't always live up to my father's standards, in fact, I often fail spectacularly. That being said, going forward, I hope you'll consider some different options when it comes to choosing what kind of man you want to be around these parts. I wish you the best and I mean it.

    •  Misconceptions (0+ / 0-)
      I don't have that background, but Joieau clearly does ...
      What?! Joy doesn't have any background in physics! Based on what she has written here, I doubt that she even has a four-year college degree. She's never confirmed that she has whenever I've asked.

      Not that this matters much to me. There are plenty of good, reliable technicians whose training is more vocational than liberal arts. What bothers me, however, is how she completely shits on the technicians who are working hard to complete one of the many work-in-training programs available today, which are often done in collaboration with a local community college. Yeah, Joy is a real class act.

      If Joy thinks that she is so much superior to them, then perhaps she can tell us where she received her Bachelor of Science degree and from which school she learned metallurgy and thermodynamics.

      Somehow, I don't think that we'll get anything from her, because telling us her real situation won't result in the belittlement of others, which is what she really enjoys.

      I do have advanced degrees in physics, by the way, and I would be hard pressed to explain the subtleties that the physicists disagree about when it comes to this experiment, since I don't work in cosmology. However, I have enough humility to admit my limitations in this area, and unlike Joy, I don't use it as an excuse to bash all experts.

      I can tell you have a very underused sense of humor, because you obviously didn't get the little self-deprecating joke that I have inserted into my profile. Nevertheless, you provide an excellent example of where this joke comes from.

      See, like many people I encounter on DailyKos, you choose to focus on me, instead of any of my arguments, because you don't have anything to counter my arguments. Thus, your only resort is to call me all sorts of names, from bully to misogynist to petty, small-minded, jealous, shrill, macho ... etc., etc. There are even suggestions from you that I might be racist -- anything that you think would defame me.

      You've done just about everything to me except ask me whether I still beat my wife.

      It doesn't matter. I've heard it all before. Thus, I've beaten you to the punch and already gotten the insults out of the way by calling myself an "asshole." Now that we have covered what I am, can we please get back to the point and make this not about me?

      You do not know me. You don't know anything about me, and in case you haven't noticed, you're the only one who is obsessing over Joieau's sexual characteristics. Personally, I couldn't care less whether this person is female, male, or hermaphrodite, other than to choose the appropriate gender of pronouns to use. I focus only on what she writes, particularly on the parts that are absolutely, completely wrong or are unforgivably insulting.

      A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
      -- Dryden

      by bryfry on Fri Apr 20, 2012 at 12:09:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bryfry. This: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PreciousLittle
        What bothers me, however, is how she completely shits on the technicians who are working hard to complete one of the many work-in-training programs available today, which are often done in collaboration with a local community college.

        Tis not how I read the linked comment at all.  Instead, speaks volumes about the comparisions in required training modalities past to present.

        Sadly, something not at all unique to this particular industry, IMHO.  

        Kindly re-think making comments that contain personal attacks or innuendo.  It does not become you or this site nor is it tolerated by site members.

        To counter that which you disagree with, simply providing facts on the subject matter- with supporting resource links-is what benefits & educates.

        •  Read whatever you want (0+ / 0-)
          Instead, speaks volumes about the comparisions in required training modalities past to present.
          It might, if Joy would explain how she has more than an associates degree herself.

          It has been my experience to observe that the technicians working in the nuclear industry today have vastly more experience and training than the yahoos that they used to hire back in the late-70's, particularly when the hiring was done in a very short time period for an emergency situation -- e.g., directly after the TMI-2 accident in 1979.

          Yes, I'm referring to Joy's lack of experience and training, in case you were wondering.

          The professionalism of today's nuclear work force speaks for itself in the statistics. The capacity factor of nuclear plants back when Joy had a temp. job working at TMI was in the 60% range. Today, the capacity factor of the US nuclear fleet exceeds 90% year after year. You don't achieve these types of results unless you have a well-trained, efficient work force.

          A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
          -- Dryden

          by bryfry on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 06:31:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bry, you've just written a 500 word screed... (0+ / 0-)

        and all but three or four lines are dedicated to denigrating Joieau and, now, me for commenting on your conduct toward her.

        You say you want people to focus on the content of your "arguments". However, there is no content here other than your highly emotional railings against Joieau. In the entire foregoing series of comments, you spend NO time, whatsoever, on refuting any of Joieau's writings with factual analysis of your own. Instead, you have, once again, expended all of your energy attacking what you perceive to be Joieau's character flaws and her qualifications, or lack thereof.

        I have been patient and personable with you in this present exchange. I'm not calling you a rotten human being. For all I know, in your private life, you could be a model citizen. I'm saying that, to this observer, here at DK, your intractable, rotten behavior toward Joieau is creating a highly unfavorable impression of you. To be clear, I will repeat what I said above:

        Your bullying behavior, toward a knowledgeable, outspoken, courageous woman is making you look petty, small-minded, jealous and shrill. You are giving off the taint of a deep-seated misogyny. If you were harassing a person of color, in a similar manner, here at DK, your ass would be grass, and rightfully so.
        By all indications, you are exceeding in your aspiration to be an "asshole" (per your statement on your profile page). The kind of chauvinist asshole (per the ad graphic caption on your profile page) who says: "Being An Asshole Is All Part Of My Manly Essence". This is, precisely, the kind of chauvinist asshole who would relentlessly belittle a strong woman, like Joieau, who has excelled in a man's world and, indeed, in a very male-dominated profession. You have chosen him as your role model and you are channeling him extraordinarily well.

        In summary: your extreme dedication to the pursuit of assholery, is leaving you no time to pursue your other stated aspiration of: "Pragmatism to the extreme". Of course, pragmatism would require you to set aside your decidedly non-pragmatic, personal vendetta against Joieau. As an "extreme pragmatist" you would need to write rational, erudite diaries and/or comments with an express focus on:

        Pragmatism: assessing the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application.
        You have said you have an "advanced degree in physics". If so, you are wasting your hard-earned education, since being an asshole requires no book learning at all. However, going forward, your education might serve you well -- if you actually choose to concentrate on being more of a pragmatist and less of an asshole. I don't see that happening though, do you?
        •  Bry, one thing I need to rephrase... (0+ / 0-)

          Re. my first sentence in the third paragraph, it should read: "I have tried to be patient and personable with you in this present exchange".

        •  I would need to write? (0+ / 0-)

          Have you ever actually read one of my diaries? Unlike you, I have actually written stuff here other than comments. But instead of reading, you proceed to speculate, in an insulting way, about me, without any knowledge whatsoever, which resulted in this little gem:

          This is, precisely, the kind of chauvinist asshole who would relentlessly belittle a strong woman, like Joieau, who has excelled in a man's world and, indeed, in a very male-dominated profession.
          Heh ... and exactly what "profession" would that be? Performing circus tricks?

          Do you know what career she has had for years and years? Here's a hint: she used to call herself a "professional fool." Perhaps you should learn a little bit about someone before you start praising them so blindly.

          Perhaps you should also bother to learn something about someone before you start criticizing them so harshly, but thank you anyhow for the insults, the childish pseudo-psychoanalysis, and the idle speculation of the value of how I spend my time, something about which you know absolutely nothing.

          Eh, I've seen it all before, for years and years. People who don't like what I say retaliate by personally attacking me (or unfairly HR'ing me, see some of the comments above), and this is yet one more example. As we see here, even when I try to explain myself, I am met with further personal attacks and criticized for taking some effort to defend myself. sigh

          I've have been correcting the errors in Joy's comments and diaries (under two user handles, by now) for about half a decade now. So I find your criticism that I have spent "no time, whatsoever, on refuting any of Joieau's writings with factual analysis" of my own to be utterly hilarious.

          A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
          -- Dryden

          by bryfry on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:17:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So, you're the "victim" now, Bry? (0+ / 0-)

            Do you even read what you write? You wrote:

            I've have been correcting the errors in Joy's comments and diaries [snip] for about half a decade now.
            So, you are saying: you have singled-out and targeted an outspoken woman (Joieau) and, under cover of complete anonymity, you've essentially stalked her DK diaries and comments to correct her errors -- for an entire five year period.

            You've just made quite a self-incriminating admission of an extreme preoccupation with a personal vendetta. Moreover, your comments on this thread are abundant proof that you are NOT here to "correct errors" with "fact-based analysis" of your own. In your foregoing 10 comments (around 2000 words in total), you have expended your time making spiteful, malevolent remarks that are intended to denigrate the character, and qualifications, of the only female, Nuclear Free DK diarist who is educated in the field of nuclear technology; and who has further on-the-ground expertise that was directly gained from working in the industry.

            As you well know from the public record, Joieau and her husband (a nuclear Navy vet) both served at Three Mile Island. They subsequently became whistle-blowers who publicly disclosed information that was being suppressed in the aftermath of the accident at TMI. They were subject to death threats that compelled them to leave Pennsylvania for New Mexico -- where the situation became all the more dire. I will leave it at that, since it is Joieau's personal life and she may not wish to have it discussed here in this openly hostile environment -- of your making, Bry. Suffice to say, I'm probably not the only bystander who finds your treatment of Joieau to be a menacing form of harassment that is, evidently, NOT intended to debate her premises, but rather to silence what she has to say in a manner that conjures the ghosts of the past.

            Bry, other commenters have made it known that they think you are incorrigible. Nonetheless, I thought it was worth expending some of my time in an attempt to help you see how your toxic conduct is eroding any remaining semblance of your credibility. I was hoping you would be receptive to this wake-up call, but you've doubled down. Now you're crying victim out of one side of your mouth while continuing to spew defamatory vitriol out of the other. I sincerely hope you never have to experience the fullest meaning of victimization, as Joieau and her immediate family have.

            Per your profile page aspirations of being both a "pragmatist" and a chauvinist "asshole": no doubt, you have found that the latter option requires far less discipline and rigor than the former. Under other circumstances, I would turn a deaf ear to trifling assholery; but here, in this context, you are giving us sinister assholery and it needs to be called foul.

            Over and out.
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

            •  Amusing (0+ / 0-)

              You really have no idea, do you?

              Look, before you go ranting further about an "extreme preoccupation" and a "personal vendetta," you should know that I'm not the one who had her ratings privileges removed by the founder of this site (i.e., Markos himself) for inappropriately hide rating someone, namely me. In fact, during my entire time here at DailyKos (during which, I was supposedly "stalking" and "harassing" this person), I have never hide rated her even once.

              Furthermore, I should point out that I'm not the one who has been doing "call out" diaries about other people. Since you're relatively new here, I should explain that this is something that has been considered very, very bad form for a long time now:

              "Calling out" other site users by name in diary titles is prohibited. Diaries which "call out" another by name tend to needlessly inflame. If you feel compelled to address another user's comments or diaries in a diary of your own, please do so cautiously. Avoid ad hominems and stick with substantive, constructive criticism only.
              You can see where Joy has called me out directly (along with at least one other member here), using some rather insulting language, both here and here. Both of these diaries are rather interesting, because they include some of her so-called "whistle-blowing" activity from the eighties.

              Far from being someone "who is educated in the field of nuclear technology," she has repeatedly exposed herself of being completely ignorant of the design of the one and only nuclear plant in which she has ever claimed to work.

              If you want to know when I have corrected errors, then please take a look at this diary, in which I explained what happened at TMI and finally put the myth behind that "whistle-blowing" effort to rest. Unlike Joy, I had the decency to leave personalities out of it and focus only on the facts. If you actually take the time to read this material, you might notice that, while she calls me out by name and insults me directly, I never mentioned her even once.

              I guess that I'm a pathetic "stalker" and do a very bad job and conducting a "vendetta." My only excuse is to claim inexperience. Maybe I should go read the rulebook again, so that I can live up to your standards.

              A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
              -- Dryden

              by bryfry on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:24:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bry, I gotta hang it up buddy... (0+ / 0-)

                before I fucking die of boredom.

                The links in your last comment are feeble and only serve to further demonstrate that you have NOTHING to say here that isn't entirely dependent on, or reactive to: Joieau.

                I've indulged you enough. Don't go away mad now, just go away. I'm way past done. Seriously.

                •  You're welcome (0+ / 0-)

                  and thank you for demonstrating that you are not interested in any technical details, any flaws in Joy's "knowledgeableness," or examples of how Joy does not "play well with others." I cannot say that I'm surprised; I know the type.

                  However, before you "fucking die of boredom," realize that you were the one who started this exchange, not me. You have only yourself to blame.

                  Personally, I sincerely hope that, in the future, you will leave me the hell alone and refrain from sharing your pop-psych analysis of me or my motivations. It is so tedious and boring to read your claptrap, after all. Don't worry about me. I'm not mad, just bored.

                  Continue to venerate Joieau if you want. It's not like I care, unless you decide to personally attack me again. But if you go beyond cheerleading and post your own nonsense, don't be surprised if I comment to correct your errors.

                  A fool is nauseous, but a coward worse.
                  -- Dryden

                  by bryfry on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 05:13:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Great. Now I'm also in your crosshairs, hey Bry? (0+ / 0-)

                    Now, you're threatening to track me and "correct errors" in my future comments, as you boasted about doing to Joieau in several of your preceding remarks. And when you say "correcting errors", you must mean that you will seek to discredit me mostly by defaming my character and assailing my motives, as you have done to Joieau.

                    Perhaps you also intend to do this to me for at least "half a decade", as you have done to Joieau.

                    If so, you will have Precious Little time for anything else; which is not actually a problem for you if you have no ambition to ever do anything else. That being said: I urge you to reconsider your options and not squander the “advanced degrees in physics” you've laid claim to earning.

                    YOUR CHOICES: 1) Double down on pursuing your stated aspiration of being a chauvinist "asshole" who intends to spend another "half a decade" on "correcting errors" in other people's comments and diaries. 2) Focus on pursuing your stated, but thus far under-achieved, aspiration of being an "extreme pragmatist" who is capable of generating his own independent, original, erudite, fact-based diary content.

                    Btw, it's quite revealing that you feel it is you who has been "personally attacked" herein, Bry. Self-pity is a trait commonly seen in belligerent, chauvinist "assholes" who feel threatened and "victimized" by the emerging power of historically marginalized groups. (Remember, you have featured one of these prototypical, mid-century, “manly assholes” as a mascot on your profile page.) This is the kind of guy who prefers to build himself up by tearing down others.

                    You obviously don't like what you're seeing here now. But, I have done nothing more than utilize your Personal Profile, and your own stated aspirations, to flesh out the picture you have drawn of yourself. No, it ain't pretty but that's not my doing. If you want to change the way it looks, you know what you need to do -- and you can't do it by going another round of tit-for-tat here on this page.

                    NOTE: If you need me to be the cooler head and the bigger man, here it is: I fold.

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