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This photo appeared in an ABC news exclusive.  It seems to show a bloody head that belongs to George Zimmerman.  

link to abc exclusive photo of a bloody head

brightened version - luminince only changed

What else does it show?  Look closely... the individual pictured seems to be talking on a cell phone, not in handcuffs as far as one can tell.  His right arm is visible but his left is not, nor does it seem to be in proximity to it.  This guy is not being treated as a suspect.  

When was it taken?  timestamp from photo (screenshot)  Three minutes after the shooting, before a second officer had arrived.  Before anyone checked on Trayvon, to see if he was breathing or not.  

According to the police report of one Sanford PD officer Timothy Smith, presumably the only live person there with Zimmerman, he should already be in handcuffs.  Here is the language of his report:

"I was advised by dispatch that the report of shots fired was possibly coming from 1231 Twin Trees Cir.. I was then advised, after receiving multiple calls, that there was a subject laying in the grass in between the residences of 1231 Twin Trees La. and 2821 Retreat View Cir. I responded to 2821 Retreat View Cir and exited my marked Sanford police vehicle and began to canvas the area. As I walked in between the buildings I observed a white male, wearing a red jacket and blue jeans. I also observed a black male, wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt, laying face down in the grass.

I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, 1 removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.

Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene. I advised Officer Ayala that I had not made contact with the black male subject laying on the ground. I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response, but was met with negative results. Shortly after this, other officers began to arrive on scene along with SFD Rescue 38 who began to give aid to the subject laying on the ground."

link to pdf of police report

Something is not right here.  

Either the photo is wrong or else Timothy Smith's report is wrong.  Then there is the question of the identity of the photographer - was there a third person at the murder scene that wasn't included in any police report?  Or is Timothy Smith the sympathetic photographer? Lots of questions here.  Few answers yet.  

And now here is the real rub: there is no ongoing outside investigation of Sanford PD, or Norm Wolfinger's office.  Special prosecutor Corey needs their cooperation and so in public has nothing but good things to say about them. Holder at the DoJ has announced he is looking into whether or not George Zimmerman violated Trayvon's civil rights.  On April 2nd, the family of Trayvon sent a letter to the DoJ asking them to investigate the Sanford PD, and Norm Wolfinger's actions in the wake of the shooting.

They have yet to receive an answer.  

8:15 PM PT: Please don't use this diary to talk about the blood, how much, or what your own head or nose did when you fell off your mountain bike.  Go start your own diary if that is your interest here.  

I'm hoping to begin a discussion on the corruption that is inherent in the case.  It's not about the blood.  It's about the lies.  I am not a doctor.  I doubt you are either.  

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Comment Preferences

    •  Look up the site's FAQ for Detailed Info. (10+ / 0-)

      Photos must be located on one of a few approved image services like Photobucket or Imageshack, you can't embed images directly from news sources, peoples' web sites and such. You have to put copies onto one of those services and then the service itself provides you with several different links already coded for different uses.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 07:19:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  please correct your diary (20+ / 0-)

          this is just not accurate:

          And now here is the real rub: there is no ongoing outside investigation of Sanford PD, or Norm Wolfinger's office.  
          http://www.cbsnews.com/...
          The shooting of Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., has sparked a Justice Department investigation of that city's police force. Authorities will be looking for possible civil rights violations in other cases.

          There are currently 17 major police and sheriff's departments under investigation for alleged civil rights abuses across the country.

          http://www.ktvu.com/...
          The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

          It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

          Never forget that the Republican War on Women originated with religion; the GOP is but theocracy's handmaiden.

          by Cedwyn on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 07:40:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, the first report is not accurate and the 2nd (5+ / 0-)

            is a suggestion box.  

            More succinctly, CBS is claiming there is an investigation with a different focus than the DoJ is announcing.  Don't be fooled.  It takes political will for the feds and the executive office to dig into state politics.  I'll wait for the report.  

            Please link to a press release from the DoJ if you want me to edit the diary.  

            Here is Holder's original statement, taken from the lede of a news report on his press conference:

            WASHINGTON, D.C. -- U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday called the killing of Trayvon Martin a "tragedy that we are all struggling to understand," and said that the Justice Department will act decisively if it finds evidence that the teen's civil rights were criminally violated.

            He is investigating GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.  Not the Sanford PD.  I am in solidarity with the family of Trayvon Martin on this matter.  Their letter asking for a real outside investigation of the Sanford PD and Norm Wolfinger's office has not been answered.  And I'll stop calling for it when they show results.  

            Regarding the invitation by Sanford City fathers for the DoJ to "come have a look a round"  I'd ask everyone to look closer there as well.  This is a PR move by the Sanford city fathers but NOT an announcement by the DoJ.  

            Here is a link to a story that points out there is no investigation

            The Department of Justice has not announced a sweeping investigation yet.
            link
            http://www.palmbeachpost.com/...
            •  whatever "sweeping investigation" means (7+ / 0-)

              and the fact that he hasn't announced one doesn't mean one isn't happening.

              that palmbeachpost article says this:

              Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

              ...Sanford officials will not know what this will mean for its police force until the Department of Justice tells them what it found.

              they're being investigated; that's what those words mean.

              Never forget that the Republican War on Women originated with religion; the GOP is but theocracy's handmaiden.

              by Cedwyn on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:27:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's a complaint box, essentially (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                from same article:

                city father sez:

                "I am now in the process of talking with the Department of Justice and instituting a mechanism whereby citizens that have concerns or complaints about the Sanford Police Department can have their concerns heard and investigated by an independent agency," Bonaparte said.
                This is a sop to those who felt they were not served by the hated Sanford PD.  They get to talk to a fed.  On the phone, probably.  This is NOT, "feds come on with a warrant and carry out all the files and put people on suspension and cast around for informers and whistleblowers."

                And i think it was a deal worked out by the Community Relations Service, to ease "racial tensions."  Not to investigate and clean house.  

            •  If the FBI is part of DoJ, they've started some (4+ / 0-)

              kind of an investigation. I saw video on Al Sharpton's show of FBI officers at the scene of the shooting.

              Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

              by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:34:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  again, that's not proof of much. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                The FBI was shown in a photo op style clip walking around the gated community in their stylish FBI jackets.  As I keep saying, this is to investigate the concept of George Zimmerman possibly violating Trayvon's civil rights, as explained and announced by Holder.

                I hope I am wrong, but I still don't see any proof that Holder is directly investigating Wolfinger and the Sanford PD.  Everyone cheered and toasted martinis when he announced the feds were entering the case, but no one looked closely at what they actually said they were up to.  Plenty of local news outlets and some national ones reported the story incorrectly.

                Later, city fathers of Sanford who want to save their own asses announced they were "inviting" the DoJ to look into the cop shop, and together the two set up a "program" or some such to listen to complaints.  This was likely the dual action of the Doj's Community Relations Service.  These people are NOT investigators.  Their job is to calm nerves and diffuse tension between groups and factions in conflict over an issue.  

                Think back to incidents like Wounded Knee 1973, or Bobby Kennedy and JFK needing to respond to MLK's marches, or LBJ and the same pressures from high school integration fights, etc., things like that.  

                It's a chess game between the executive office and the state governor as to who is going to deal with the "problem" at hand or not.  What we saw was the first moves by the Obama administration, where they basically told the governor of Florida that he better DO something about this loser Geporge Zimmerman whose actions have caused 2 million voters to be up in arms, or else they would.  And to that effect they announced a CIVIL RIGHTS investigation, and sent in the CRS people from DC. And some FBI jackets.  Their NEXT move, had the state of Florida not ponied up and announced a special prosecutor would have been to sweep in and clean house.  That stage of the game was never reached.  

                Hence, the letter from the parents asking specifically for an investigation into the Sanford PD and Wolfinger's actions.  

                The letter that was never answered.  

                I know i seem like the fool on the hill here, ranting at the monkeys in the jungle or some such metaphor, but I really don't see much proof that the locals are under investigation here.  Wolfinger has quietly resigned yesterday.  Zimmerman in the courts hands now.  Most of the outrage is actually over.  No one has reported on the FBI carrying out boxes of files form any office, have they?  Police chief Bill Lee is still on "temporary" paid leave.  No one from this original case handling has been served a subpoena, or given a deposition, or gotten a lawyer, or announced a book deal or plea deal.  If this were the Watergate, it's still in the third rate burglary stages.  Where is Chris Serino, lead homicide detective and what does he have to say about his coworkers?  Corey needs the cooperation of the Sanford PD still, but no one needs Norm Wolfinger to do anything but for his office to handle his current case load.  And that guy is either incompetent, corrupt or racially biased, BY DEFINITION since the special prosecutor is out to prove Murder2.  

    •  Do you have a photobucket acct? (5+ / 0-)

      You must work-we all must work-for a world that is worthy of its children. - Pablo Casals. Please donate to TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3).

      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 07:20:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  if you upolad pics to flickr . com (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ZappoDave, HappyinNM, worldlotus

      you can cut and paste the code in the text section of the diary or comment.

      Other allowed servers get more complicated. If it is the bloody head pic don't bother as most have seen it and it can be viewed elsewhere.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 07:22:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Vi-ola. (10+ / 0-)

      z head

      #occupywallstreet: Although I know the rhythm you'd prefer me dancing to, I'll turn my revolt into style.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:13:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I remember vividly (13+ / 0-)

    being a 7 year old who had one of those marvelous nickle six shooters dropped on my head from the upper bunk bed.  My head bled like crazy (not wimpy like that picture).  My mother just shoved my head under the tub faucet until it stopped with water and a pressure bandage.

    Unless we had arterial spurt -- we had no hysteria and butterfly bandages.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 07:26:50 PM PDT

  •  I saw the photo (11+ / 0-)

    Seriously, that's a life-threatening injury?  Head wounds bleed like crazy - that looked like a couple of scratches.  Someone as wimpy as Zimmerman shouldn't be allowed out without his mother.

    •  please comment on the diary, not the blood. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tunk, Tennessee Dave

      I was hoping that a discussion of injuries received and their severity would not be the focus of this diary.  It's not about the blood.  It's about corruption and the larger issues.  

      thank you.  

    •  that's not the question (14+ / 0-)

      It was whether Zimmerman was reasonably afraid of serious bodily harm or death, not whether he had already suffered the former.

      •  That's not the question either. (27+ / 0-)

        We all know that the being "afraid of serious bodily harm or death" came after the fact.
        If he were afraid of being harmed or getting killed he would have kept his ass in his vehicle as he was advised to do.

        •  How do we all know (5+ / 0-)

          that it came after the fact?

          •  Like she said, if Zimmerman was so scared of the (14+ / 0-)

            "scary guy", he should have stayed in his truck and not followed him, like he was advised. He left his truck with a gun and followed. Trayvon is the one who should have been scared here.

            •  Everything related to what Z has "claimed" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              debedb, HeyMikey

              is SWAG. His actual claims will come out in the legal system. That said, I would suspect that he would never claim to scared of the scary guy until he was supposedly attacked.

            •  Maybe he wasn't terrified at first (8+ / 0-)

              But was while he was (if true) getting the crap pounded out of him.

              •  Well, maybe he was getting the "crap pounded out (11+ / 0-)

                of him" because he was a stranger following the unarmed teen. The teen was probably trying to fight off this stranger who persued him. You can't start a fight then decide to be terrified in the middle and then kill your victim.

                •  Yes, you can under FL law (9+ / 0-)

                  Even if "initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself," if

                  (2)(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.
                  •  and that's why lots of people find this law (12+ / 0-)

                    controversial. According to this law, If I think someone is suspicious, I can stalk them and initiate a confrontation and if my ass is getting kicked, I have a right to use my gun because I freaked out. Fabulous law! I hope the law dies. Btw, lot's of experts don't think SYG applies to this case.

                  •  We seem to have forgotten this part: (12+ / 0-)
                    and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger
                    There is no evidence that Zimmerman even tried to escape - if I were to believe for one nanosecond that he was doing anything other than hunting.
                    •  well, the claim has been ... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Bensdad, Angie in WA State, HeyMikey

                      ... that Martin was atop Zimmerman and banging him into the sidewalk.  

                      •  Yeah, I heard that. I heard them tying (6+ / 0-)

                        themselves into pretzels to explain how Trayvon could have been banging his head on the cemented sidewalk while attempting to disarm him.
                        This kid! He was some sorta superman or something, right?
                        Yet he is now rotting in his grave.

                      •  and the one 'eye witness' who is reported to have (5+ / 0-)

                        seen that, actually saw the opposite: zimmerman on top of trayvon but was coached by the sanford police dept to change his testimony.  i hope the prosecution got that straightened out during a re-interview with the witness.

                        Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:56:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If they had (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          nextstep, erush1345

                          Wouldn't it hadn't been in the probable cause affidavit? Also, the ballistics evidence should be pretty definitive.

                          •  no. those first affidavits while not a slap-dash (0+ / 0-)

                            thing, only sketch out the pov/thinking of the prosecution for bringing the charge.  it doesn't have everything in it.

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:10:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Links, please? I believe you're mistaken. (1+ / 0-)

                          The first impression I had from media reports was the same as yours. But as I followed link after link, I got a different picture.

                          IIRC the witness who was advised by the cops to change her story was a woman who had heard the yelling but not seen it. She was assuming Trayvon was yelling from the sound of the voice only.

                          The man who actually saw part of the fight said the person on top was wearing red and the person on the bottom was yelling for help. (We know Trayvon's hoodie was red.) I don't think he was looking when the shots were fired--I think he had gone inside to call 911. After he called 911 he came back outside and saw that the person formerly on top was dead.

                          I would love to be wrong. I would be glad for you to provide links showing I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.

                          "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                          by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:53:59 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  trayvon's hoodie was grey. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            HeyMikey

                            it's in zimmerman's 911 call.  i don't think anyone ever called T's hoody red.  

                            http://www.npr.org/...

                            zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:03:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i'm not thrilled that i'm using a blog (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            HeyMikey

                            and not a news source as a cite but this is a recap of what that woman told anderson cooper 's sub that night, ashleigh banfield, about her interview with sanford police:

                            She told Banfield that she heard two cries of help, the second one more of a “devastating, desperate” yell. She said she believes that the yell came from Martin, and heard them loudly arguing outside her window, even if she couldn’t precisely decipher what she was saying. When Banfield asked if it sounded like a confrontation, she agreed. The eyewitness did call 911 and mentioned that she did hear a gun went off. She described the experience as like watching a movie and telling the dispatcher what was happening outside her home, play-by-play.

                            At one point, she held up her phone near the screen door so the dispatcher could hear what was happening. Banfield asked, when the gun went off, who it looked like was on top. The eyewitness answered that it looked like “the larger man,” meaning Zimmerman, was on top of Martin. At one point, Zimmerman started walking closer to where the eyewitness could see him, but could not discern whether his face was bloodied or not. When she was called in for questioning by the police, she said their questions did not necessarily have some depth to them, but merely just them asking her for a basic recap of what happened.

                            She offered to take them to the location of the crime, but claims that they were not interested. Banfield pressed her to explain why, but she said the police could answer that question better than her. And, in fact, the lead investigator told her that she misheard, and that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, not Martin. Following a community meeting to discuss the issue, she said she contacted the police two more times, but they did not get back to her.

                            http://www.mediaite.com/...

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:13:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I had red wrong. The rest right. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Adam B

                            I had the red sweater on the wrong guy--it was actually Zimmerman wearing red. But that confirms the overall picture. And I hate to cite a Fox News video, but here's what it says:

                            A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

                            "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

                            John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

                            "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

                            The video with John's voice: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/...

                            "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                            by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:20:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes. this is the testimony that police relied (0+ / 0-)

                            upon in their decision to let zimmerman go and not press charges.

                            but then you contrast it to this:

                            Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation.[113][114][115] Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground.[113][115] Mary Cutcher phoned police after the fatal shooting and said the black man was standing over another man, although Trayvon Martin was already dead.[116] According to the Orlando Sentinel article, "Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern [on March 15] issued a statement disputing Cutcher's version of events, calling her statements to WFTV "inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police."[117] However, Cutcher and her roommate maintain that their account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and they demanded the police retract that incorrect statement.[114]
                            the first anonymous witness'john' does not even recall hearing those blood curdling wails for help, does he?  the wails that horrified an entire nation.

                            just incidentally, witnesses who heard the altercations identified one voice as young and the other as older.

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:38:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The two can be reconciled. (1+ / 0-)

                            Cutcher is doing a lot of supposing without actually knowing.

                            It is fairly easy to see how everything that John saw and heard and everything that Cutcher saw and heard--as opposed to what Cutcher assumed--can be true.

                            "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                            by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:55:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah, i definitely see your point. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            HeyMikey

                            i'm not sure this is an echaustive list but here is the wiki entry for the witnesses:

                            A witness to the confrontation just following the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".[106] He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.".[106][107]

                            A 13-year-old boy walking his dog saw a man on the ground shortly before the shooting and identified him as wearing red.[108][109][110] His mother later disputed the testimony and claimed that the police pressured him into choosing what color the man was wearing, and that her son couldn't see any details in the dark. She also stated that the police waited five days before requesting to even question her son and said the police told her they didn't believe the shooting was self-defense.[111][112]

                            Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, appeared on AC 360 and Cutcher stated that she believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, and admitted that she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation.[113][114][115] Cutcher and her roommate heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees straddling Martin on the ground.[113][115] Mary Cutcher phoned police after the fatal shooting and said the black man was standing over another man, although Trayvon Martin was already dead.[116] According to the Orlando Sentinel article, "Police spokesman Sgt. Dave Morgenstern [on March 15] issued a statement disputing Cutcher's version of events, calling her statements to WFTV "inconsistent with her sworn testimony to police."[117] However, Cutcher and her roommate maintain that their account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and they demanded the police retract that incorrect statement.[114]

                            On March 29, 2012, an eyewitness referred to as a male said that he saw two men on the ground scuffling, then heard the shooting, and saw Zimmerman walk away with no blood on him.[118][119] The witness later appeared on CNN AC360 referred to as a female, giving more details on her account. She pointed out that she heard an argument between a younger and an older voice. The whole time she witnessed the incident the scuffling happened on the grass. She said that the larger man, who walked away after the gunshot, was on top, and that it was too dark to see blood on his face.[120]

                            A witness who arrived shortly after the shooting revealed photos he took that night that showed "blood trickling down the back of Zimmerman's head from two cuts. It also shows a possible contusion forming on the crown of his head," which agrees with the original police report. In revealing the photo to ABC News in mid-April, he noted he heard but didn't see the scuffle, but was one of the first to arrive, and was the first to talk to Mr Zimmerman after the shooting.[16]

                            Martin's mother says the shouting for help heard on some of the 911 calls is her son's voice.[121] Zimmerman's father says his son was the one calling out.[122] The former is relied upon in Corey's Affidavit of probable cause for second degree murder. The latter is not mentioned.[123]

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 05:03:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  However, Trayvon did try to escape. (9+ / 0-)

                      Shoe on other foot:  Trayvon is being followed by a suspicious character so he tries to run but the stranger chases him.

                      Does SYG allow Trayvon, having exhausted every reasonable means of escape, to take a swing at Zimmerman or is he required under SYG to shoot him for it to be self-defense?

                      That's what has me baffled.

                  •  You miss the part where one has to be acting (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dancun74, JoanMar

                    lawfully.

                    Starting the fight and stalking Trayvon removes the SYG protection.

                    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                    by Robobagpiper on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:42:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Only reason GZ would not have been scared... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JoanMar

                ...of the "scary black guy" in the hoodie, in the dark, invading "his" turf, is because he knew he was packing.

                And so this little paranoid punk felt like a big man, got out of his vehicle despite being specifically told not to and acknowledging same, and pursued, something he also was not supposed to do as a "neighborhood WATCH" person.

                So paranoid "tough" guy has his gun, I don't for a minute believe he wasn't clutching that thing for dear life as soon as he got out of his SUV.

                And for a guy who was in a scuffle for his life, that blood looks awfully "neat" to me. This guy has a history, and it looks to me like he's a rage-filled wussie.

                And by the way, I don't like the diarist's tone here with his "and I doubt you are, either" snottiness, but I do agree that scant attention has been paid generally to mishandling of the case. To me, that is the bigger crime here, because it is suggestive of a pattern that is being reported in that area.

                Fuck Florida.

                Ich bin ein Wisconsiner!

                by Apphouse50 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:53:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  absolutely right (4+ / 0-)

              and Zimmerman was the one whose behavior was suspicious.

        •  At a different point (10+ / 0-)

          The legal question is Z's mental state, and the reasonableness thereof, at the moment of shooting.  You may not believe it -- and it may not be true -- but "we all know" isn't known yet.

          •  I'm begging you please write a diary (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            on this case. Just a basic, "let's clear the air" type of post to try to elevate the level of discussion here a little bit.

            •  Elevate? Meaning (0+ / 0-)

              let's focus on the minutia of the law? Legalese?
              Let's not talk about the dead black kid who was doing nothing other than walking while black?
              Yeah, it's pretty vulgar to be talking about race and murder, isn't it?
              I would really love to see that diary by Adam B because I don't mind telling you that it is pretty frustrating to see him appearing to be creating a defense for Zimmerman where none should exist.

              •  The problem may be the law. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JoanMar, Adam B, nextstep, CaliSista

                FWIW: I'm a lawyer, but I've never practiced criminal law.

                It appears to me Zimmerman is a bigot caught up in his own paranoid right-wing racist violent fantasies and fears. But even if that's true, he may be innocent of any crime under Florida law.

                What Zimmerman did may be a moral outrage yet legal.

                That seeming contradiction is important to understand.

                At this point we're all speculating--which is probably not healthy--but my speculation is that it's going to play out something like this:

                Zimmerman will claim he ran after Trayvon and did nothing but talk with him--didn't swing first, didn't show his gun. He'll claim Trayvon swung first. He'll claim that Trayvon was on top of him, punching him and slamming his head on the ground (or sidewalk). And Z. will claim it was only at that point that he pulled out his gun and shot.

                I have paid close attention to the witness statements in media reports, and though the witnesses may not corroborate all that, nothing I've seen contradicts any of it.

                If those are the facts that the jury believes, then it sounds to me like Z. may well have been within his rights under Florida's "stand your ground" law.

                Is that an "elevation" of the DKos discussion? I don't know. But I do think it's important to understand that Z. may be a bully, a thug, a racist asshole, a provocateur, yet not legally guilty. And that moral guilt alone will not send him to jail.

                "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:35:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As much as it pains me to admit (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HeyMikey, CaliSista

                  I know you are right.
                  That is exactly what he'll claim and I have seen nothing thus far to convince me that the prosecution has either the will or expertise to punch effective holes in that defense.

                  •  It may not be a matter of will or expertise. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Adam B

                    There just may be no evidence to the contrary.

                    If there ain't evidence, then there ain't evidence. You can't make people see what they didn't see, or hear what they didn't hear.

                    Here's how I deal with this all the time: I'm a Social Security disability lawyer. I do higher-level appeals. In a large majority of my cases, the SSA disability judge found my client's complaints of pain or fatigue or depression or anxiety or whatever not credible. Usually the judge is trying to fill in the blanks with evidence that doesn't really fit: "He can't be disabled because sometimes he goes to the grocery, or to church! He can't be disabled because sometimes he cooks a meal and does laundry!" You think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. The judge thinks he "knows" what the real situation is, and is willing to stretch the evidence to try to make it fit the judge's preconceived notions.

                    Since I struggle against that so often, I try to be on guard against it in myself.

                    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                    by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 05:09:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I really don't think Zimmerman is a racist (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HeyMikey

                  I don't know if you saw the hearing or read the transcript, but racists don't volunteer to mentor black kids or lead public campaigns to get the police to arrest a white guy who beat up a homeless black guy.

                  I do think he's foolhardy and likely what I would call a "hothead". Running around at night following "suspicious" individuals with a gun in your waistband if fucking stupid. Nothing good can come of that.

                  •  Thank you for that. (0+ / 0-)
                    racists don't volunteer to mentor black kids or lead public campaigns to get the police to arrest a white guy who beat up a homeless black guy.
                    I was unaware of those.

                    People are surprising, aren't they?

                    Tragic and ironic that the surprising George Zimmerman did not keep his mind open to the surprising possibilities of a hoodie-wearing young black male.

                    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

                    by HeyMikey on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:29:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  From my perspective (0+ / 0-)

                It's demeaning to our collective intelligence to engage in discussions that have false assumptions or are based on "facts" that are not so. It would be a lot of interesting to me if the discussion about what "should" or "should not" happen would at least start with things that are known, such as the what the law in Florida is, and the facts that have been established so far in this case. Adam B unfortunately, seems to have better things to do, like analyzing SCOTUS decisions. Can't say that I blame him.

                •  Not quite. (0+ / 0-)

                  It's that I don't want to draft something that purports to be a comprehensive primer when I think it's beyond my depth to do so authoritatively.  Florida criminal law and criminal procedure is a pool I can wade in, but not swim underwater from end to end.

                  •  Understood (0+ / 0-)

                    It's all relative though. If you can't swim underwater in that pool, and you're pretty damn knowledge on a variety of legal affairs, just think about all of the people around here who claim to know enough to make conclusive statements at this stage in process with respect to everything from self-defense laws to rules of evidence to forensic analysis to medical conditions, and on and on.

                    If you just wrote a diary setting forth everything that you know for a fact to be true with respect to this case, it would be a massive improvement upon anything that's been done here at Daily Kos to date.

                •  Either of you are perfectly free (0+ / 0-)

                  to write such a diary but I doubt things will turn out as you seem to think. Generally, the same group of Kossacks are commenting in diaries on this case. Just as you and others who feel as you do continually show up in the "demeaning to our collective intelligence" diaries, the wild speculating unwashed masses will show up in the "elevated" diary.

                  There is a lot of time between now and any trial. The more we know and that is revealed, the narrower the discussion will likely become. People are reacting to what is being reported. If you think about it, most of the discussion of evidence has come from what has been leaked or dribbled out from Zimmerman's side or in reaction to something they have done like the GZ website or trying to portray Trayvon as a delinquent.

                  Trayvon's parents have mostly confined themselves to calls for Zimmerman's arrest. It was Zimmerman's surrogates who were on TV flapping their gums about terms of endearment, wearing diapers, being jumped and sucker punched, etc. that is feeding a lot of the speculation as people try and reconcile those statements with other information that has been revealed and with their own common sense.

                  Especially now when emotions are still very close to the surface, I think it's difficult to have a dry legalistic discussion. Regardless of what goes down in court, many people (myself included) believe that Trayvon Martin is dead because he was a Black teenager profiled by George Zimmerman as "suspicious", "on drugs" and "up to no good'. Why that is still so in 2012, SYG, competence of Sanford police,the availability of guns, ALEC, Florida law, 911 calls, witness statements, etc. are all ripe subjects for discussion.

                  "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

                  by CaliSista on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:30:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not calling for a "dry legalistic discussion" (0+ / 0-)

                    I wouldn't come to Daily Kos for that. My only point is that if you follow the comments, Adam B has dropped by and had to correct misstatements of law and fact repeatedly. Given that wee pride ourselves on being a "reality-based community", I would just like to see him collate his comments into a diary that would likely be on the front page and/or the rec list, and so maybe at least the discussion would then start based on that foundation.

                    I would write such a diary myself, but I've got an infant sitting in my lap right now who won't tolerate me blogging for more than a minute or two at a time!

              •  If the law creates a defense, he's entitled to try (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                willisnewton

                And we don't abandon our support for the constitutional rights afforded all criminal defendants when the defendants happen to be particularly unpopular ones.

          •  The legal question also includes the lawfulness (0+ / 0-)

            of Zimmerman's conduct right up until the instant he decided he was threatened.

            Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law requires the person to have been acting lawfully to claim it. It's more than just his "state of mind".

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:57:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  Stalking (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JoanMar

                Zimmerman wasn't afriad of Martin. He was stalking him. First from his car and then on foot. He was in persuit as the "Neighborhood Watchman" of a suspect...in Z'mind. Martin had not committed a crime.
                So, there's that. Z was armed  and stalking a citizen who was minding his own business.

                Maybe you have never been stalked and attacked at gun point because of your body or purse or general appearance....but if you become aware that you are being stalked,especially if you are young and/or female, you become very focused....very,very focused on getting away from the stalker. IF the stalker managed to grab you, you will struggle like hell to get away all the while being acutely aware that at any moment you could be raped or killed.

                Would SYG protect people who stalk and attempt to rape women or young boys, if those individuals fought hard to get away and then the attacker shot them because of their frantic, possibly aggressive attempts to get away?

                Your interpretation of the SYG law is baffling. If the law was actually interpreted they way you seem to see it, agressors would be getting away with murder all the time.

    •  Well (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      frankzappatista, Lujane

      Well, but the question is how did he get the injury? It most likely means that he was right in his claim that Martin banged his head against the pavement. I can't see a wound like that happening any other way. So that means that at some point, Martin was on top of him.
      Of course, I'm not suggesting that means Martin had to be the one to start the fight - it would well be that Zimmerman started it and when he then started losing, turned to deadly force. But if I were his lawyer, I would be very happy this picture is out there.

      •  Too many options. So little answers. (6+ / 0-)

        It could be as simple as they both hit the ground, Martin face down, Zimm behind, face toward Martin. Zimm shoots, rolls off Martin. Zimm's back hits wet grass and hits head. But not because of a fight. Just because he rolled off.

        I know waiting for the evidence is frustrating, but it's necessary folks.

        cheerleaders need not apply.

        by kravitz on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:30:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  We'll know soon enough, because what you (10+ / 0-)

        said will all be evaluated during the SYG hearing. Apparently, if Z can show that, although he was the aggressor, at some point he became afraid for his life, he'll walk. The problem he will have is explaining why Trayvon was yelling for help right before the gunshot was heard.

        Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

        by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:46:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  he could have tripped (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doroma, worldlotus

        over his own feet. And the more I learn about Zimmerman, the more I think something like that is likely.

      •  Or he could have sustained it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sockpuppet

        when he tackled the kid and they both fell.
        A witness said he heard the shot and saw the guy on top get up and walk away.
        Personally, I would love that Trayvon was able to bang his head on the sidewalk. It was the least he would have deserved. However, that doesn't look much like someone banging another's head in concrete. With fear pulsing through him and feeling that he was dealing with someone who meant to do him grave harm, I am thinking Trayvon would have been pounding away with all his might. What the pics show doesn't look anything like that.

        •  Links to witness statements? (0+ / 0-)

          I believe you are mistaken about witness reports.

          I did a fair amount of reading of witness reports in the media. It's been several weeks ago, but IIRC the witness who was advised by the cops that she was wrong about Trayvon being the one yelling for help was a woman who had heard the yelling but not seen it. She was assuming Trayvon was yelling from the sound of the voice only--and apparently from knowing that Trayvon ended up dead.

          The man who actually saw part of the fight said the person on top was wearing red and the person on the bottom was yelling for help. (We know Trayvon's hoodie was red.) I don't think he was looking when the shots were fired--I think he had gone inside to call 911. After he called 911 he came back outside and saw that the person formerly on top was dead.

          If I am wrong, then I apologize for mucking up the discussion. But I got the same impression as you from reading the headlines, then when I actually clicked the links, I found what I have described.

          "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

          by HeyMikey on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:03:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It doesn't, really. (0+ / 0-)

        He could have grabbed Martin, and been shoved to the ground, striking his head.

        Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

        by JesseCW on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:17:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This: (27+ / 0-)
    I advised Officer Ayala that I had not made contact with the black male subject laying on the ground.
    This just rips up your inside and clogs up your throat. He doesn't even check to see whether the black male needs help.
    This should also put an end to the, "he is not white, he is Hispanic" argument. Perception, most of the time, is reality.
    •  Just left the kid laying in the grass (15+ / 0-)

      Yes, just left the kid laying in the grass while the officer hung out with his friend George.  This same officer answered many of George's other calls.  

      The Julianna Michigan Show on Itunes and Podbean.

      by libnewsie on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:06:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hate to say anything to defend the police (19+ / 0-)

      in this situation. But I think an officer coming upon a man who said he was armed and had just shot someone, would make his first priority to secure the gun.

      No idea how much time elapsed before anyone got to Trayvon. But I think getting Zimmerman's gun secured would be the first order of business for any cop.

      •  read the report. He SAYS cuffed him first. (10+ / 0-)

        So that's cuffs first, then disarming him from the holster.  

        But this photo seems to show a man not wearing cuffs, taken 3 minutes after his arrival.  He also says that after he put the man in cuffs, the second officer arrived and he asked HIM to look at the youth.  

        I'm critical of the idea that he put the guy in cuffs, since the photo seems to show something else.  It's possible he put the cuffs on when he took him to the station, and lied in his report.  

        •  I'm not sure why that concerns you so much. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          debedb

          Z called the police 46 times in a little over a year, so they sorta knew him. He didn't attempt to leave the scene, and admitted shooting Trayvon immediately. The officer may or may not have cuffed him immediately, but why does that bother you so much? If that's all the officers lied about in their reports, I'd be surprised.

          Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

          by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:52:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  point taken. It's still a lie, however (5+ / 0-)

            And yes, the idea that Ofc smith was friendly to GZ is one that should be investigated, since it is likely that his alibi was coached.  

            My concern is that there is no such ongoing, outside investigation of ANY of the reasons why the local authorities failed to charge GZ with any crime.  

            Cops lie everyday.  I've had them pull that routine on me, and spent the night in jail based on lies they told.  I'm not impressed either.  It's the way the world works.  But here we have a capital crime and a case where the lead homicide investigator thinks the alibi doesn't pass muster, and said so, said he should be charged with manslaughter.   Yet he's overruled by the prosecutor and the police chief.  And so on.

            Where there is smoke and lies, there is corruption and fire.  

            My axe to grind is corruption.  
             

            •  There was a witness at the bail hearing. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              worldlotus

              His name is Gilbreath. He's an investigator for the new prosecutor. They need to put on a case. They're investigating everything. They're at a disadvantage because the police may or may not have gathered all the evidence they might have had they thought they were going to charge Z. The prosecutor said on the day she announced the charges that the Sanford PD was cooperating. Maybe she didn't believe that, but that's what she said. All the people who have commented have ideas of things that should be looked into. A good investigator knows exactly what to look at in order to put all the pieces together. They're professionals. Additionally, the FBI is investigating. So we wait. And speculate.

              Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

              by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 11:40:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i'm glad GZ is in the court system. BUT!!! (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                amsterdam, blueoasis, devis1, native

                I'm not glad that the Sanford PD is not being actively investigated by an outside body.  

                There is the APPEARANCE of an investigation by the DOJ but in reality this investigation is only focusing on Trayvon's civil rights, not the Sanford PD and Norm Wolfinger, who by the way quietly announced he won't be running for re-election after 17 years.  He is 66, i think.  

                GZ is a loser and undeserving of much more of anyone outside of the jury's time.  But the prosecutor who let him loose the first time, after a few hours of looking into it deserves some of that same outrage, I feel.  And since the state NOW thinks GZ should be tried for murder, that seems to suggest that Wolfinger is either incompetent, corrupt or racially biased.  Maybe all three.

                Shouldn't someone be looking into this?  

              •  also, this about sanford pd and corey (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                you mention this

                The prosecutor said on the day she announced the charges that the Sanford PD was cooperating. Maybe she didn't believe that, but that's what she said.
                I agree that Corey is treading lightly on Sanford PD.  She needs their cooperation to get a conviction.  

                But that also implies that "Sanford PD is cooperating on the investigation into Sanford PD" which is a stretch several ways to say.  It's the potential for corruption in this case that concerns me and made me write this diary.  

                The whole case stinks from top to bottom, and no one with any real authority is going in to clean house on the locals.  

                •  The mayor of Sanford helped with the release (0+ / 0-)

                  of the information that we're speculating about. Do you think it's possible that there IS an internal investigation that we aren't privy to? Doesn't the city council have authority over the PD? It appeared that the mayor hadn't been in office very long. We can hope that he is not yet (or maybe never will be) part of the corruption within the PD. Note: I have had very little experience with police. The last police office I had contact with changed my tire. He said his job was to protect and to serve. So it's possible that my opinions are based on my naivete. Or my hope that now that the country is watching, the PD will perform properly. And perhaps the big problem was Wolfinger, and he's finished.

                  Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

                  by HappyinNM on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 06:02:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  b/c it is important if the cop LIED & WHY he would (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, willisnewton

            LIE

        •  Which is how it should be done. (5+ / 0-)

          Secure suspect, disarm him. Check on victim. If you go to victim first, suspect could flee or shoot officer.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:42:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I can't tell what is in the picture. (0+ / 0-)

          Seems it could be whatever you want it to be.

          As for the blood, well I know you don't want it to be part of the diary, but the fact that there is blood indicates some degree of trauma.

          Head wounds bleed profusely so a little cut can appear to be disproportionaly traumatic.

          Measure twice, cut three times, repeat as necessary.

          by SpiffPeters on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:18:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  try the 2nd link in the diary - better exposure (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, native

            But yes, people will see what they want to see, myself included.  I see a guy not in custody, talking on a cell phone around two minutes after the shooting.  He's darn sure not cuffed behind his back, and that to me seems to be contradicted by the police report.  

        •  Cuffing Zimmerman helps secure the gun. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          If he's cuffed, the officer is safer pulling the gun out of the guy's waistband or wherever it is.

          Think about it. The cop's protecting both himself and the victim and anyone else nearby or who shows up at the scene by securing the weapon.

          As for the photo... I don't see anything the shows handcuffs used or not in that photo. Absolutely nothing.

          And yes, I suspect a lot of things were done wrong in this whole case. But this point -- cuffed first, not cuffed, securing gun over checking victim -- this means nothing. It's pointless.

          All of these things likely happened in seconds. You have a cop coming onto the scene of a shooting, a man telling him he has a gun and just shot someone. Decisions are made in instants. Reports are written much later. And while they might be falsified, they're much more likely to be someone's best recollection of a dangerous situation where things happened very fast. They're not like a court transcript, with someone taking notes every minute and recording what happens.

          If you want to focus on this case, try to at least do it responsibly and look at the important stuff.

        •  You're assuming the time stamp on the photo (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          native

          is completely accurate.

          Having checked all five of the digital cameras in my home, only three are accurate within a minute.  One is off by six minutes and the other is off by about 4 hours.

          The reports I've read say this was a photo taken by a neighbor, not by the police.  It is not unlikely that the clock on their camera simply isn't that accurate.

          Nuclear weapons don't kill people, Harry Trumans kill people.

          by JesseCW on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:23:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  My guess (9+ / 0-)

      is that it is standard police procedure to first disarm and cuff  the person with the weapon, which is absolutely to right thing to do.

      There is no evidence that he "hung out" with George and ignored Trayvon after dealing with Zimmerman

      •  Here: (11+ / 0-)
        Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene.
        While we do not know the duration of the "shortly" I would assume that if the life of the black male was deemed to be of utmost importance then immediately after securing Zimmerman  he would turn his attention to him, no?

        And note that it is not shortly after securing Zimmerman, I attended to the black male but, shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ayala arrived on the scene.

      •  no evidence except this photo. (9+ / 0-)

        Which contradicts his police report, which says, cuffs first, then disarming, then his cohort checked on the body.  

        yet the photo seems to show a man not in cuffs, 3 minutes after the arrival of the first officer.  Is the diary unclear?  I'm happy to update it.  The police report also seems to leave out the photographer's presence on the scene prior to a second officer's arrival.  

        •  How is that photo (5+ / 0-)

          evidence that the officer "hung out with" Zimmerman?

          As for the diary, yes you could be more clear about the 3 minutes. Is that 3 minutes after the shooting or after the arrival of the first officer, you claim both. For that matter, how do you know the exact moment of either?

          How do you know he was not front cuffed? How do you know the photo was not taken before he was cuffed? Why do you believe that police report would include the presence of any or every bystander who would arrive on a police scene?

          •  The timing is going to be important. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doroma, worldlotus, sockpuppet

            And it's all recorded. They have several 911 calls that record the yelling and the gunshot. The police have to call the station when they arrive. The time from when Z called the non-emergency line and the police arrived on the scene is minutes.

            Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

            by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:39:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  1918, a very long time ago, I worked for a police (3+ / 0-)

              dept.  Injuries were always recorded in the reports (end of shift)-including photo evidence & names/addresses/contact numbers of any bystanders.

              Typically, there were multiple reports generated-shift officers responding, investigators/detectives-each making a report based on their individual roles at the time.

              Photos were placed in (secured) evidence room with anything else removed/gathered at scene.  Added to if more physical evidence was found.

              Despite my experiences being long ago, this is still considered SOP according to those I know in the field today.

              Errors & ommissions can occur in any field.  However, as a layman I find it very odd that the first reports released made no mention of photo taken & by whom.

               Even if name of photographer was redacted-mention of photo taken would not have been.  Too important.
              Law enforcement training includes report writing-reports that must be able to stand in court.

               Perhaps I just did not see it or it is in later reports that I have not seen.

              •  The Sanford police (4+ / 0-)

                Released a version of the policereport, but then I stumbeled upon a link which probably contained a leaked version. In this link there were actually 2 versions of the report. They both were attributed to same responding officer, but the older one did not have ofc. Smith narrative.

                I've written a Diary about it. I have no knowledge about police procedures, but I do have knowledge about automated systems and process management. Their procedures and system security, seemed flawed to me.

                I would realy appreciate your opinion.

          •  Yes, it's possible... (0+ / 0-)

            ... that his hands were cuffed in the front in this pic. And it's also possible that they were cuffed (front or back) at first, but by the time this pic was taken, they had been removed. If they knew the guy, and based on that plus Z's 911 call, it's possible they only cuffed him long enough to secure the gun. Oh, and it's possible that the pic was taken by the first cop on the scene, AFTER the second cop arrived and was checking on Martin. And yes, all this could take place within a very few minutes. And by the way, we can argue that we don't like that other things went on before anyone even checked on Martin, but if you've paid any attention to cops at all, you know that's how it goes on ALL the time. They worry more about the person who is still moving around than one who's not, even if the one might be dying. That's just the way they do it. And I'm sure nobody wants to hear this, but I'll bet they also did a pat down of Martin before they ever checked his vitals. Again, that's just how it's done.

            Do I know ANY of this to be the way it went down. Of course not. I'm just trying to put forward a somewhat plausible scenario, like everyone else.

            "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

            by ratmach on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  would you front cuff a guy w/ a gun on his belly? (2+ / 0-)

            I wouldn't.  Video of GZ at cop shop show a man cuffed in the back.  According to the police report, GZ was addressed, ordered to comply, cuffed and THEN disarmed from a holster in his "waistband."  Is that front or back? We don't know, really I guess.

            the timestamp on the photo comes via ABC News.  

            As for the timeline, I'm no expert but it seems like ofc. Timothy Smith showed up within one minute of the shot being fired.  He was dispatched during the "911" call from GZ, and arrived having heard about a shot being fired.

            This is from his report:  

            "As I arrived on scene, dispatch advised of a report of shots fired in the same subdivision."
            So the three minutes (more like two, I think) are for both time from the shooting and the time the officer was there, give or take some period less than a minute or so.  

            As near as we can tell, the shot was fired about at 7:16:56  and the photo taken at 7:19:07.  That's two minutes, eleven seconds apart.  

            911 calls from residents mention seeing flashlights (plural) quickly.  GZ carried two himself but presumably would only operate one at a time.  Who knows what a real investigation could make of all this.

            I'm not about the answers, sorry.  I'm still asking myself questions here.  Maybe the cop showed up after the photo was taken.  If so, he fails to mention the photographer.  Seems a glaring omission for a homicide report.  

  •  This case stinks (11+ / 0-)

    The 911 logs also show that Zimmerman made a second call at 7:20 pm. But it doesn't show what was said during that call. Ofc. Smith doesn't report about that either.

    Congrats with your first diary.

  •  One of the discrepancies (8+ / 0-)

    I've wondered about is the reference to GZ's back being wet. Wasn't it raining?  Isn't that why Trayvon had his hood up?

    And if it were raining, the guy on top in the fight would have his back as wet, or more so, than the guy on the bottom.

  •  The photographer (11+ / 0-)

    The photographer is not Smith. It was a bystander who heard the fight but didn't see it until after the gunshot. The cell phone that Zimmerman is using belonged to the photographer

    The person who took the photograph of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible.
    The photographer said that after the shooting, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call his wife. When the photographer asked him what to say, Zimmerman blurted out, "Man, just tell her I shot someone."
    http://abcnews.go.com/...

    I really can't see Zimmerman's hands there. It's possible, I suppose, that he was handcuffed with his hands in front and that's why he needed the photographer to call his wife rather than use his own phone.

  •  there was ONE cop on the scene. (4+ / 0-)

    make up your mind people, are the cops supermen or incompetent?

    first of all the report says he was in custody shortly before the second cop showed up.  the pic could have been taken before the second cop showed up.

    Also, he is the ONLY cop on the scene after a shooting.  Do you think he is going to cuff the suspect and then ignore him and give the shootee first aid or something?

    I don't know exactly what their exact proceedures are but from my work in a police station (I was an electrical contractor), if a  guy is in cuffs or in custody, he has a cop assigned to him.  Only in the movies do you see cops cuff em and leave em to go do other more heroic things.

  •  This is hard to read (14+ / 0-)
    I advised Officer Ayala that I had not made contact with the black male subject laying on the ground. I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response, but was met with negative results. Shortly after this, other officers began to arrive on scene along with SFD Rescue 38 who began to give aid to the subject laying on the ground.
    I cannot stand this case. Trayvon did not have a gun. George Zimmerman did. Trayvon did not initiate stalking George Zimmerman but George Zimmerman is heard on tape being advised that he did not need to stalk Trayvon Martin and he did it anyway.,

    This boy is snuffed out for no damn good reason at 17, his life is just collateral damage in the War on Black Kids that Make Some People Uncomfortable and his reputation is collateral damage in America's eternal culture wars.

    These sentences never had to happen:

    'I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response, but was met with negative results.'

    'I am sorry for the loss of your son.'

    'On Sunday February 26th I was involved in a life-altering event, which led me to become the subject of intense media coverage. As a result of the incident and subsequent media coverage, I have been forced to leave my home, my school, my employer, my family and ultimately, my entire life. This website's sole purpose is to ensure my supporters they are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries.'

    TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com

    “The only thing that happens in an instant is destruction... but everything else requires time." - First Lady Michelle Obama

    by FiredUpInCA on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:41:00 PM PDT

  •  the picture was obviously taken before he was... (0+ / 0-)

    ...put in cuffs.  duh!

    •  that contradicts the police report by ofc Smith (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, MKSinSA, elwior, Dancun74

      which clearly states he was cuffed first, then disarmed immediately upon the officer's arrival.  Hence the questions.  

      next time, read the diary.  thanks for posting.  

      •  it doesn't say he was cuffed first. (0+ / 0-)

        It says:
        1.  I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject.

        2.  Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed.

        3.  Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs.

        4.  Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, 1 removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster.

        iow, the cops, by himself approached GZ and god knows who else was there (someone took the picture, right?), asks him a few questions (at this time someone could have taken the picture), he then cuffs him and takes away his phone and gun.

        also, the picture may have been take AFTER he was in cuffs.  we can't tell.

        we know that he did call his wife from the scene.

        thanks for replying.

        •  sorry, i don't know if he called his wife from... (0+ / 0-)

          ...scene

          •  now ABC says the photo was taken RIGHT... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            ...after the shooting.  could this picture have been taken even before the cop showed up?

            •  That was what I understood and read (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sockpuppet

              initially, that after Zimmerman shot Martin, some third party phoned his wife. I read this on ABC (I think) and the original article, the first one right when it came out a few days ago. I remember wondering if the call was made by a cop, scrutinizing the article for that information since the person was anonymous, and leaving with the impression that it wasn't a cop but likely a neighbor.

              The person reported what Zimmerman said as well.

              I strongly believe Zimmerman's guilty but am missing something in this account of the photo being a piece of evidence to indict the (repugnant) Sanford PD. I'm not following the issue of the time stamps despite reading several comments and the diary too.

              You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

              by mahakali overdrive on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:50:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  he's not cuffed behind the back (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          devis1, worldlotus, blueoasis, Voodoo

          unless that cell phone is glued to his ear somehow.  

          And yes, they exchanged words before the cuffs were said to go on.  What's your point exactly?  How long would a cop normally hold someone at gunpoint before bothering to disarm them?  "Cuff 'em and stuff 'em" is usually the drill.  Ask questions later.  It's dangerous out there.  

          Answer me this: If YOU were a cop walking up to a shooting scene, would you make a note of who was there when you got there?  The photographer, if present is clearly a suspect at that point, no matter who confesses.  At the least he is a witness.  He's not mentioned in the report.  Seems odd to me.  

          And yes, it's POSSIBLE that the photo was taken before the questions were finished. And some yahoo could stand around behind an armed homicide suspect taking photos while a lone cop holds the guy talking on a cell phone at gunpoint, but that seems unlikely.  

          If we can establish a timeline via the 911 callers, many of whom announce seeing flashlights arriving during their calls we might eventually better establish who was on the scene at what time.  

          But, like I said, no one is performing this type of investigation despite the fact that there are so many questions about the police and prosecution's ultimate decision to let the shooter go home that night after killing an unarmed teenager.  

        •  I like how George put the murder weapon.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          devis1, doroma

          ...back in his waistband, perhaps in preparation for the next kid who took a shortcut through the neighborhood.

          Personally, if I had just killed someone, I would probably be in such shock I would release the weapon to the ground.

          Gotta admire George's cool.

          Or I guess you could call it cold-bloodedness.

        •  you're wrong - cop report says he did NOT question (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          amsterdam, blueoasis

          Zimmerman

          Why do you post false comments on here?

          This quote is directly from Officer Smith's report

          "At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."
          Do you know what all those words put together in one sentence mean? ANS: It means the cop did not ask Z any questions
      •  It's clear the photo was taken by the bystander, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis

        and the police are not yet on the scene.  Hence Zimmerman isn't yet cuffed.

        What bothers me is that there is zero smear to the blood.  Not from the concrete, not from Zimmerman putting his hand up to the back of his head to see what's there (you know, as it was banged into the ground so hard he feared for his life)

        2012: the Year of the Voting Woman. And by the way, Republicans ... we're pretty pissed about what you've done to our country.

        by mumtaznepal on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:15:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  one obvious note (8+ / 0-)

    Even assuming that timestamp is authentic (what's the source?), not every clock involved in this case is synchronized with each other.

  •  GZ was ALREADY out of his truck when told... (0+ / 0-)

    ...not to engage.  he was attacked by TM on his way back to his truck.

  •  Amazing the spin that is being brought (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bensdad

    to every little detail.  Most of which are not relevant.  The case is collapsing.  The more that comes out the more it looks like it's going to be very hard getting a conviction if even to trial.  

    Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:52:55 PM PDT

    •  why (5+ / 0-)

      is the kid still not dead? zimmerman still killed an unarmed kids walking home.

      Bad is never good until worse happens

      by dark daze on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:00:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why do you say the case is collapsing? (7+ / 0-)

      It came out at the bail hearing that Z was interviewed 5 times while he was in custody the night of the shooting. The prosecutor seemed to indicate that the story changed from interview to interview. If those are material changes, he's got a problem.

      Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

      by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:02:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We really don't know what changed as you (0+ / 0-)

        said.  One of the tricks the police use is to interview someone many times to test their story and or trip them up. Things will change each time. Depends on as you say, whether they are material.  The biggest indicator the case is weak is the low bail.  Its far from a trial but the bail hearing failed to show any huge evidence to show a likelihood of conviction and therefore a likelihood of fleeing.  The prosecution would have loved to thrown out a smoking gun if they had one. Other factors in a bail hearing but what they presented wasn't very convincing.  Can't wait for the trial.  Should be better than any reality show.  The life of Trayvon will get lost in the newest "trial of the century".  That is the sad part.  

        Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

        by thestructureguy on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:43:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is that the only criteria for bail? (0+ / 0-)

          I thought it also had to do with

          the charged crime

          defendant's ties to the community

          prior criminal record

          defendant's cooperation (turned himself in)

          for this case, the defendant's notoriety.

          Any idea of what other similarly situated Murder 2 defendants get in Seminole County?

          "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

          by CaliSista on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:48:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's because the trial is taking place.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      ...OUTSIDE THE COURT. And that has been their intent from the very beginning.  Not every piece of crap that appears on ABC news is evidence.

  •  This is not a medical analysis. It is just my own (6+ / 0-)

    experience.  When I fell on the concrete last year, it took 6 stitches to close the head flesh.  They had to scrub the concrete after I left for the hospital because there was a lot of blood.

    If he had his head banged repeatedly on the concrete he would need stitches.  It does not close on it's own.

    There is no way they would not have done testing on his head and sewed it up.  The whole thing stinks.  It just does not make sense.

  •  what civil rights might have been violated? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil

    Holder at the DoJ has announced he is looking into whether or not George Zimmerman violated Trayvon's civil rights.

    I'm not being faceous, I really don't know.  Are people saying his civil rights were violated simply because he was black?

    •  Yes. It's hard to profile (7+ / 0-)

      It's hard to profile someone as a "suspicious" "African-American" guy "who always gets away with it" if he's not black.

    •  it's an investigation. They don't know yet. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, worldlotus, amsterdam, blueoasis

      The suspicion seems to hang on the goon/coon/cold/punk comment, mostly, plus the fact that the case just stinks from the get-go.  Holder has not finished a report nor preferred charges yet.  The announcement of his probe was on the same day that the guv of Florida announced a special prosecutor for the STATE to look into the matter.  

      It was looking like the state might not act, so the feds stepped in, in part to put pressure on the state to start a real investigation.  The state looked pretty bad up to that point considering the shooter slept in his own bed the night of the killing.  That's not much time for a homicide investigation to clear someone who shoots an unarmed person.  

      Release of the 911 calls, where it seems like the youth is being profiled - not necessarily RACIALLY profiled, but profiled nonetheless considering he was actually just a kid walking home, were the tipping point for a lot of public outrage and prosecutorial questions.  GZ looked like a vigilante to most who heard the tape of his call.  

      "People are saying" all sorts of things.  But yeah, "walking while black" is one of the things they are saying Trayvon was shot for.  

      Civil rights violations are not the same thing as hate crime laws, however.  IANAL, but hate crime laws were enacted to give the prosecution something to charge people with who are doing things like burning a cross in your yard, which is technically just a misdemeanor.  

      I hope this helps.  Now on to my two cents on the matter:

      Trayvon's parents want an outside investigation that focuses on police and prosecutorial corruption, NOT just the civil rights violations angle to take place, and they are currently not satisfied in that regard.  Yes, GZ needs to face justice, and that seems to be happening now.  But some sequence of events led to his being let go on the night he shot and killed their unarmed son.  And now the state of Florida thinks it was murder in the second degree,  so that suggests strongly that the earlier bunch in charge of this case was either racially biased, corrupt or incompetent.  Or some version of all three.  

      And the parents deserve answers.  

    •  Z's first lawyer who spoke to every media (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKSinSA

      outlet that would listen made it a point to say that Z wasn't a racist. He didn't know the facts of the case, but he was sure it wasn't racially motivated. I believe his purpose was to keep the DoJ out of it. This was before the governor appointed a new prosecutor (the first one wasn't going to prosecute). Z's parents have worked in the courts and they knew that the Sanford PD wouldn't do anything. But they weren't so sure about the DoJ. If this doesn't involve racism, the DoJ has no part. So that's what Holder was referring to.

      Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

      by HappyinNM on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:11:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would submit (2+ / 0-)

      that Stand Your Ground Laws places undue burden on prosecutors to prove assailant were not afraid for their lives, rather than asking assailants to justify their fear in court. Stand Your Ground denies victims their right to due process and denies them equal protection under the law.

      Presumably self-defense claims would protect Zimmerman in civil court as well as criminal court.

  •  Anyone as old as me might remember those (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    devis1, Bensdad

    ads in comic books where the "90-lb weakling" gets sand kicked in his face by a bigger guy at the beach. So the weakling takes some body building classes, becomes Arnold Schwarzenegger and is able to defend himself.

    Under SYG the weakling could just pull out his gun and shoot the guy eliminating the need for exercise and weights. Barney Fife and Mr. Peepers will be the most dangerous guys in town.

    Gives you an idea what kind of cowards wrote this law, doesn't it?

  •  I think the case is corrupt, but I don't see (0+ / 0-)

    how this is inconsistent with the report? I know that ABC originally reported that this photo came from the same person who first called Zimmerman's wife to tell her he'd shot someone. I presumed it was a neighbor or something.

    I think Zimmerman is guilty as sin, but I'm not following how this police report is inconsistent with the picture. Maybe I'm just missing something glaring though. I'd love to see this as a less-than-metaphorical "smoking gun."

    Can anyone explain what I'm missing? Thank you.

    You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

    by mahakali overdrive on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:45:03 PM PDT

    •  Police report (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mahakali overdrive, Dancun74

      states he was placed in handcuffs. Diarist is suggesting the picture proves that he was not cuffed as early as police claim.

      •  Yes but I don't get why? (0+ / 0-)

        In the statement, before the cops arrived, he made a call from an anonymous person's phone to his wife, Shelley's phone or their home phone,  before the cops arrived. In that, the person who owned the phone said he had heard the shot. Cops not yet on the scene with handcuffs, etc.

        Am I missing something?

        You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 11:48:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  first officer arrived at 7:17 (5+ / 0-)

          The timestamp on the photo shows the time as 7:19.

          •  that's what i think too BUT... ya know... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            amsterdam, Voodoo, mahakali overdrive

            but who knows, maybe we are wrong somehow, amsterdam.  Could it be that the cop arrived at the CURB at 7:17, while a nearby tenant was snapping a photo and then he went back into his townhouse?  Cop rounds the corner to find GZ alone with the dead or dying teen?

            That's the closest I can come to an innocent explanation for all this.  

            But get this:  as near as I can tell the SHOT was fired at
            7:16:56

            So if that's all true, the photographer acted awfully fast.  And the cop moved awfully slow.  

            Maybe this is all "garbage in, garbage out" reasoning.  But it seems worth investigating, doesn't it?  And by IT, i mean the Sandford PD's handling of the case.  Corey's not doing it.  

            And you know that I believe Holder isn't either.

            •  Yes it is possible (3+ / 0-)

              But we are being taken for a ride. We are given manufactured data.

              If the photo is used as evidence, the person who took the photo has to be identified. So, we will find out at the trial.
              Why is somebody willing to run outside, right after hearing a gunshot, take a picture of the person who just killed somebody, while standing next to that dead kid. Make a phonecall, and then run back inside when a police officer arrives.  

              The 911 log for Zimmerman's call has a status deleted.

              Just from an IT standpoint I can see they messed it up.
              It should show the dispatcher, because at least 2 officers were dispatched. You see Smith and Ayala being dispatched.
              It shows an arrival time for Smith, but not for Ayala.

              The second call shows dupl records from the first call. But in an older call where records are duplicated to a new event report, it also copied the original time, emp id and radio id. But that is not the case for that last call.

              I would have less of a problem if the logs were complete, with blacked out entries. At least I would know they didn't tamper with the data.

                 

            •  The other thing is why was the picture (0+ / 0-)

              even taken? If the police were about to arrive, why did this person take a photo at all?

              It's strange to me. I have a more complete picture of what the discrepancy is today.

              You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

              by mahakali overdrive on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:31:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  photo has the feel of a fender bender pic (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                And by that I mean the purpose of the photo is plainly to document damage so "somebody has to pay for this."

                I can imagine that GZ instructed the photographer to take the shot personally.  "Hey, get a shot of the back of my head, would you?"  It's that kind of a picture.  

                Maybe GZ's phone lacked a flash, but he wanted a picture.  It's curious that he wouldn't just hand his own phone to a bystander if "getting proof" was his goal, however.  

                But I understand the nature of your question.  Why take a picture like this at all?  Yet, it appears that on some level it was a fortunate occurrence for his legal defense.  The investigators didn't seem to bother.  

                Was his head about to be washed with a wet rag, and he wanted to document the blood flow?  Was he thinking about his legal defense THIS soon after being in a life and (mostly) death situation?  

                Or , maybe he just wanted to see the back of his own head and couldn't, so he had a passer-by take a photo and show him.  

          •  Thanks, that's the part that I somehow missed (0+ / 0-)

            That's exactly what I wasn't clear on. So the timestamp is after the police are reported to have arrived. Hm. That could be a technical malfunction but could also be something else. Curious. I'd want to hear a reporter address this. It's worth querying further about.

            You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

            by mahakali overdrive on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:30:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  1st cop claims he cuffed the lone shooter first (5+ / 0-)

      pasted from above, sorry

      this is a photo of a guy NOT in cuffs, i contend (8+ / 0-)

      hence the questions.  

      here is the sequence according to ofc Smith's report.

      He arrives, exchanges words w Z who informs him he shot the teen and is armed.  

      Ofc Smith places Z in handcuffs.

      Ofc Smith disarms Z

      second officer arrives, checks out body

      Second officer's report claims that when he arrived Z was in handcuffs.  

      I contend that this photo disputes that account, by depicting a man NOT in handcuffs, seemingly talking on a cell phone 3 minutes after the first officer arrives.  

      neither report mentions the photographer.

      does that help?  I respect your opinion, mo

      •  I respect yours too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cc

        it's in the published articles from ABC. They're saying these aren't photos from the cops (which makes sense why the report wouldn't have this information).

        I believe this phone call happened before Officer Smith arrived based on the anonymous statement from the guy with the phone calling Zimmerman's wife.

        I think the photo could be faked!

        Hope this is coherent. Two gin and tonics deep over here, sorry! Someone else linked to the article that I got my info off of.

        You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 11:51:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This would ALL be cleared up if (0+ / 0-)

          either Sanford PD came out and said he did not use one of their officer's personal or private phones, nor were any on the scene already (a conspiracy theory idea I've nursed since finding out about his cop obsessions and history) -- OR -- the person whose phone it was, a neighbor or whomever, simply said "I was with Zimmerman that night." They didn't see the scuffle so presumably they were a neighbor or a relative? That person should identify themselves. If they feel that's too threatening, they should say that they aren't a police officer but a private civilian.

          Truth is VITAL in this case. Esp. if we want to win it.

          You might want to re-think those ties. - Erin Brockovich

          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 11:55:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  maybe pre-ofc smith arrival, sure but (5+ / 0-)

          if so, where did the photographer scoot off to in the less than a minute or so time he had to take this picture?  And why did he or she feel they had to flee?  Was Z's wife or brother or mistress(?!)  with him and he told them to "run, just stay out of this?"  Seems like crazy talk to speculate like this, but you have to admit this photo begs a LOT of questions that aren't being answered by ABC or the photographer.

          For whatever reason, the police report fails to mention an accomplice or paparazzi hanging around when he arrives at the scene of a homicide.  Perhaps that's just a "detail to overlook" but if I were a cop and i came upon a dead body and two people, I'd put that in my report.  

    •  It's also not helpful that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mahakali overdrive

      the 'photoshop' brigade is on the case again, given how lousy their record is at this site.  

      People need to be patient and let the evidence unfold at trial.  I think Zimmerman is guilty, too - even if not strictly legally, then morally guilty for initiating the whole thing in the first place - but the self-appointed experts in 'shopping are going to get themselves into a tangle again.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:32:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We will only hear one side of the story.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freesia, worldlotus

    ....because the witness to the murder was murdered.

  •  Are Trayvon's Legs Captured In The Photo? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil

    Did Officer Smith tell Z to claim "self-defense" so he took the picture?

    •  i see head grass cell sidewalk arm and jacket (0+ / 0-)

      but no legs of anyone.  And a scratch, and a "strawberry" road rash abrasion, and a bit of dried blood.  

      •  do you see legs (blue jeans) on the right (0+ / 0-)

        hand side of Z's head?

        I think I see blue jeans with a horizontal hem (like jeans have) ... I can't be sure.

        Can you check again & let me know --- it's bothering me a lot b/c I hope Trayvon's legs are not in that pic.

        •  I see no jeans. Lighten the photo (0+ / 0-)

          Make sure you are looking at the whole photo and not a crop.

          Cell phone pics are set to be contrasty at default setting to give more vivid color.  The exposure can be changed in almost any program that handles images.  Or look at my linked second url in the diary.  

          What I see is the orange-red trimmed jacket arm of GZ, holding up the object to his ear that seems to be a cell phone.  The jacket arm is grey, and you can just make out a bit of what would be his right thumb at his neck, between the collar and the cell phone.  His left arm isn't visible.  The shadow from the phone helps establish the distance to the arm - it's not something on the ground.  

          On his left it looks like a sidewalk can be seen.  On his right, green grass.  

          It would be ghoulish if it were the dead body, but we know he;s dead and we know who shot him. So it's a moot point anyway.  But yes, this is a real tragedy involving a real mother's son.  

          •  Well, that's just the thing... (0+ / 0-)

            The jacket arm wasn't grey.  Take a look at the YouTube video in the police station.  The fabric on the entire length of the arms of the jacket was red.

            •  disagree, sorry. (0+ / 0-)

              police station video is inconclusive regarding full pattern of two tone jacket.

              It's true that the outside panel of the jacket it orange/red but in the police station video only the outside is visible since GZ is cuffed with his hands behind his back.  It's a two tone jacket.  The shoulders are charcoal/grey/dark whatever.  The armpit is not visible, not is the inner side of the sleeves.  

              If you look at the closest video shots carefully, you can see that the BODY of the jacket has a panel of charcoal on the underarm to hemline area, and I think the design may include a two tone scheme on the sleeve as well.  But we never see it since the arms never change position.

              The jacket is in evidence, we're told so maybe we can know for sure some day.  But it's something to wonder about, yes.  

              I see a right arm w a cell phone.  Others may see blue jeans,  but i don't.  I also feel the video is inconclusive on the full color scheme.

      •  BTW: I think your Diary is BRILLIANT - absolutely (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, worldlotus

        BRILLIANT.

        I've noticed that many people will give a Diarist crap for "conjecture."

        I think it's because they confuse the term, Diary, with journalist's article.

        Oh well, you're Diary was BRILLIANT and thank you for sharing it.

        •  cc, i started writing this diary as a PM to you. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          worldlotus

          You ask some interesting questions yourself, pal.  I admit it's "out there" on the fringe of credibility at points.  So I decided to put my own dumb name on it instead of asking someone else to make a diary about it.

          In the end, this photo might be real and taken by a neighbor who wanted to go back inside and remain anonymous.  And that's all there is to it.  And it happened before the cop showed up, and no one else besides GZ knew about it until the tenant sold the pic to ABC.  Problem solved.  

          Or it might be something far worse.  I really don't CARE personally about George Zimmerman's case.  I care about the fact that the AUTHORITIES in charge let him go and are not being investigated themselves.  But when I keep learning all the ways in which it seems that his entire account stinks, I get suspicious.  Who would believe this guy?  

          Norm Wolfinger quietly resigned on Friday, essentially.  He won't run for re-election after 27 years as a prosecutor.  he is 66 years old, i think it said.  

  •  There is not enough information at this point to (0+ / 0-)

    talk about lies and corruption.

    •  that leaves incomptence then (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cc, blueoasis, FG

      because if the state of Florida now thinks GZ is guilty of murder2, whereas ten days ago they thought he was an innocent man, what does that tell us about Norm Wolfinger?

      (besides the fact that he quietly announced he needs to spend more time with his family and won't be running for re-election)  

      There is also not enough information to confirm if there is a credible outside investigation ongoing to determine which of the three choices, racism, corruption or incompetence was at the heart of the decision to let a killer go free, (the first time, anyway) either.  

      Color me skeptical.  I'm betting it was a combo, best two out of three, perhaps.  Too bad we may never know.  

    •  Yes there is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      the mere fact the Sanford Police closed the case and said they would not arrest Z b/c they (cops) thought Z satisfied SYG Law is, IMHO, corruption

      So if the Police Report has lies, untruths and half-truths in it it is very important to know

  •  are there other photos? (0+ / 0-)

    it seems to me that a real photographer would have taken many photos of the scene. not just this, which is too lucky for GZ

    www.tapestryofbronze.com

    by chloris creator on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 11:52:27 PM PDT

    •  we dont know.Did abc buy the photo or the iPhone? (0+ / 0-)

      Having the phone would go a long ways towards proving if the time stamp is real or not.  The pics before and after the shot in question might be clues as to when it was taken, or faked if that applies.  

      The phone and photo have not been entered into evidence yet, either by the prosecution or the defense.  We haven't heard the end of this by a long shot.  

      But that's hardly the point here I still contend.  The point is, we need a real investigation of the Sandord PD's handling of this case, separate from the case against the person who shot Trayvon. Things are fishy here.  When can we expect that to begin in earnest?

      Coery needs to stay on the good side of the Sanford cops.  But no one needs Norm Wolfinger to do anything except instruct his office to handle their case load.  Investigate the bejeebus out of him while we are all waiting for GZ to go to trial.    

  •  I've always wondered (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cc, blueoasis

    If GZ was working with that first cop who showed up, maybe others as well. informally, acting as their racial profiler, in hope of graduating to the force someday. The local pd probably enjoy using someone of mixed race for such a demeaning task. But as it turned out, GZ was a homicidal whack job stalker sociopath. I honestly don't even trust GZ and the first cop not to have scratched his head after the fact to try and cover up the pd's involvement with GZ in the first place. Witnesses have claimed not to have seen blood immediately after the shooting. It obviously wasn't serious and a little prick on the head can easily create the blood in the photos going around. I'm not saying that all happened. I'm just saying it's very easy to believe.

    •  hence, we need an investigation of the Sandord PD (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greengemini

      That's the part that flabbergasts me.  Everyone is focused on this nobody, George Zimmerman, yet the cops and the prosecutors get a pass when they coach his story, file exculpatory reports and let him WALK.  

      A fish rots from the head.  

      •  The local college (0+ / 0-)

        I wonder if Zimmerman's college or instructional center where he was taking his criminal justice courses had a program in which Sanford police officers visited the classroom or if students had contacts within the Standford police departmant for their research,etc. That kind of thing is fairly standard.
        Clearly something stinks with the way the Stanford PD handled things, they seemed to be giving Zimmerman preferential treatment...and we don't know why.

  •  Zimmerman's NOT Bald (0+ / 0-)

    This guy is quite bald. Also, Zimmerman has a round head. This guy's head is more elongated. Anyone know what kind of cell phone Zimmerman carried? This one looks very dated. Looks like something from about 2002.

    I seriously doubt that this is a photo of the back of Zimmerman's head.

  •  Are the photos real? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Gryffin, Dancun74, orphanpower

     Or was the picture taken later and circulated around in order to poison the potential jury pool? Without knowing the provenance of the photos, it's hard to draw any conclusions about the events at the scene of the crime.
      The supposed blood in the hair doesn't match Zimmerman's appearance on the video of him arriving at the police dept. Did they let him take a shower befor they brought him in?

    •  Doubt it. (0+ / 0-)

      Photo looks doctored. Remember the "enhanced" photo from the police station when they supposedly zoomed in on 2 marks on the back of the head? That was clearly doctored and they don't show that one anymore. In the live video of Z entering the station, you can't see a scratch on him.

    •  photo, not photos plural (0+ / 0-)

      So far ABC news has released only one photo, which they say is time stamped around 2 minutes after the shooting.  The photographer wishes to remain anonymous.  We don't know if ABC has the actual phone or not, but examining the phone itself would help speak to it's veracity, but may not satisfy a jury.  

      The picture has "been seen by investigators" according to ABC news.  

      Just about everything beyond this is speculation. We don't know yet if it will be admitted/ allowed as evidence at trial.  

      so here is my speculation:

      If I were to be a conspirator here and fake a photo in order to help Zimmerman's claim of self defense, I'd include more blood, and add bruising which is easier to fake anyway.   To me this is a photo of a slight injury at best.  Head wounds bleed profusely usually.  Also note there is no pic of the nose/face.  It doesn't identify the face of the subject, so that also might be something a forger would be motivated to fake.  

  •  I don't see any proof that this is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini

    a photo of Zimmerman. If this is a screenshot from ABC News, why doesn't the image link back to ABC? Is there a link to an ABC website that displays the image? Why are there no police in the photo? Why does the flickr info claim the image was snapped yesterday?

    Seems like a fake to me.

    "Hey, what's a girl gotta do around here to get a Tiffany's tiara?"--Callista Gingrich

    by The Gryffin on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:57:06 AM PDT

  •  What this picture shows me (3+ / 0-)

    is that the photographer was building a stand your ground defense for Zim.  

    Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. -Douglas Adams

    by rambler american on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 05:27:48 AM PDT

  •  Is it normal (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini

    for only one officer to show up on a crime scene where someone has been shot and the person who did the shooting is still armed? That seems rather odd to me personally.

    I know, at least where I live, more the one officer will come at the same time for non-violent crimes. I'm assuming this is for safety reason, which makes sense.

    Are police procedures different in FL?

  •  Who is this "neighbor" who arrives right after the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini, worldlotus

    shooting and immediately starts taking pictures?  It appears Zimmerman knows this "witness" because he directs him to call his wife.  The man knows the wife and the number to call?  Who was Zimmerman talking to on the phone?

    What are the officers doing during all this?  At the time the picture was taken (7:19) at least one office was on the scene and perhaps even the second officer by that time.

    Could this neighbor be his fellow Neighborhood Watch member who has been defending George so vigorously?

    Very convenient to have a friend/ally present at the scene only moments after the shooting.  

    •  Wierd also that this photographer allegedly stated (0+ / 0-)

      that gunpowder was clearly visible on Trayvon's hoody.

      How?  If Trayvon was face down, was shot in the chest & there is no exit wound, how can gunpowder be "visible" on Trayvon's hoody???

      Plus Z has the presence of mind- after being allegedly head banged/nose broken AND killing a human being- to put his gun back in the holster in his pants???

      Am I the only one that thinks this is-um-very very strange?

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