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Look at these brutal pigs, facing off with peaceful Occupiers.

Actually all they're doing is keeping the street open so traffic can pass.  But what the heck, why not whip all the civilians into an anti-police lather?  Then when they don't join the protest, why, you can blame them for being ignorant jerks who only work for the 1%.

Detroit's public safety, including police, fire, and EMS, has reached critical fail.  I wrote a diary about that last week.  Nobody gave a hairy rat's ass about it, total 5 recommends.  Supportive first responders, feelin the love.

But if I post something inflammatory -- even if it's totally false, as Occupy Detroit has done with the title I lifted straight off their video -- watch everybody flock to see the scumbag pigs.

What would you like them to do?  Really, truly, what in the hell do you want from them?  Seriously, civilians need to do a major re-think on the way they talk to and about police.

EDIT:  Many people have suggested that "face-off" is a neutral term, and applying it to police officers while at the same time commending them on their exemplary service is just fine; if I take offense at that, it's the voices in my head.

From dictionary.com:

face-off
   [feys-awf, -of] Show IPA
noun Ice Hockey.  
[NOTE:  hockey is a competitive sport, in which people often get their teeth knocked out. - XO]
1. the act of facing the puck, as at the start of a game or period.
2.an open confrontation.

Nothing in their about working together against a common enemy, i.e., GE.

5:11 PM PT:

For the people voting "no" below, by all means please leave me a comment explaining how it takes one to tango.  

If you vote "police are always wrong" (as someone did) below, it's possible that you're an overgrown child, and part of the problem rather than part of the solution.  Just a possibility, however remote.


Originally posted to Xavier Onassis EMT-P on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 04:54 PM PDT.

Also republished by ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement and Occupy Wall Street.

Poll

Do citizens have any responsibility for the bad blood between Occupiers and police?

55%22 votes
25%10 votes
2%1 votes
5%2 votes
5%2 votes
7%3 votes

| 40 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  And I was starting to wonder what happened (0+ / 0-)

    with the whole Occupy thing. I thought it fizzled out and died a quiet death...

  •  The Police and the Mayor very (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Xavier Onassis EMTP, elwior, Sean X

    supportive for the most part in

    http://www.facebook.com/...

    Photobucket

    YMMV

    •  The thing that gets me (5+ / 0-)

      is that the police, firefighters and paramedics of Detroit are fighting so hard for the citizens, so, so hard.  And so many Occupiers act like complete brats, it drives me nuts.  If people could take a more mature attitude and work together we'd really get some things done.  But no, we have little snots who think it takes one to tango.

      •  Brats (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster

        What more would you expect from the Children's Crusade?

        •  Thank you for your polite comments (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee

          On me and my fellow protesters.  It's good to know that you don't think people you disagree with deserve respect.  I will remember that when I talk with you in the future.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 07:35:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  most people have a disfavorable (0+ / 0-)

            opinion of ows.

            •  I'm not sure why you think I would care (0+ / 0-)

              to know your opinion again and again and again, but you keep telling me what you think.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 09:24:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  In the poll above (0+ / 0-)

            13 people voted that citizens have some role in the relationship with police.  That seems like a common sense sort of maturity in dealing with other communities.  It's the majority.

            We also have 5 that voted no, citizens have no role.  How is that possible?  Does one side determine the nature of a relationship?

            We also had people who voted for "I don't care, I just want what I want," "the police are always wrong," and "the police should take any amount of abuse happily."  All three of those are stone cold brat statements.  All three of those were intended to embarrass anyone who feels that way.  

            So we have 13 votes in favor of being accountable for our role in the relationship, and 8 in favor of not taking responsibility.

            I wouldn't bring this up if Occupy weren't so important to me.  It really pains me to see this lost opportunity.  Worse yet it's 35% of the vote that doesn't want to communicate well, a sizable minority.  This needs to be looked at.

            •  Well, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              the poll option "the police should take any amount of abuse happily" is obviously ridiculous and imprecise, thus I voted for it in the spirit of the absurd.

              What type of abuse? Verbal abuse- yes, the police should be sufficiently well-trained and with thick enough skins to handle verbal abuse. Mental abuse from protestors- yes, police should be able to deal with being made to feel like interlopers when they infiltrate meetings and entrap non-violent citizens. Physical abuse? Of course not. Abuse of their loved ones and families? No. So right off the bat your poll option is too unfocused to even be considered seriously.

              Then, who gets to decide whether the police accept the abuse "happily"? Who defines "happily" to begin with? Not you or I. I'd argue that a police officer, if s/he truly loves his/her job, should accept even negative interactions with the people they are paid to serve and protect with graciousness and good humor.

              Now, a cop who is, for example, ordered to remove Wells Fargo shareholders from a meeting just because the CEO doesn't like their statements, well, I wouldn't be happy about doing that job. Protecting private property and serving corporate interests, no, I wouldn't take that sort of abuse happily.

              •  I waited a while (0+ / 0-)

                to respond to this, because it was so incredibly offensive.

                the poll option "the police should take any amount of abuse happily" is obviously ridiculous and imprecise, thus I voted for it in the spirit of the absurd.
                Did you get the sense that I was joking about this issue?  Do you not get how you come across?  My frustration is ridiculous to you?  
                What type of abuse? Verbal abuse- yes, the police should be sufficiently well-trained and with thick enough skins to handle verbal abuse.

                Check.  Police -- and firefighters and paramedics -- put up with your verbal abuse all the time.  Day the fuck in, day the fuck out.  We also don't have 1st Amendment rights, so you get to talk any kind of bullshit you want and we get to bite our lips and walk it off.

                Mental abuse from protestors- yes, police should be able to deal with being made to feel like interlopers when they infiltrate meetings and entrap non-violent citizens.
                Really?  What about when they show up at a protest and treat everybody with respect, then get accused of "facing off with peaceful protestors"?  Well that happens anyway, so check 2.  Not to mention the other continual barrage of mental abuse police -- and firefighters and paramedics -- put up with from you folks all the fucking time.  (See, again, "no 1st Amendment protection").
                Physical abuse? Of course not. Abuse of their loved ones and families? No. So right off the bat your poll option is too unfocused to even be considered seriously.
                Well checkity check and motherfucking checkums, we get that shit all the time too!  So right off the bat ... well I'm glad you're having fun dismissing me out of hand.

                You're aware that the police have had to protect me from abusive (physically only, I deal with the constant verbal and mental on my own) citizens many, many, fucking times, right?  You get that this is a day in, day out lifestyle for us, right?

                Then, who gets to decide whether the police accept the abuse "happily"? Who defines "happily" to begin with? Not you or I.
                Uh, no.  I think I can pretty well provide some cultural translation from my community (which includes the police) to yours.  This person from Occupy Detroit made a stinky on the police, and it slows down the Occupation.  This attitude pisses us right off.  Fucking believe it.
                I'd argue that a police officer, if s/he truly loves his/her job, should accept even negative interactions with the people they are paid to serve and protect with graciousness and good humor.
                I'd argue that you have no motherfucking idea what you're talking about, or the world we live in.  How familiar are you with PTSD?  Have you ever done a 12-hour ride-along with any first responder?  Are we just like comic book superheroes to you?
                Now, a cop who is, for example, ordered to remove Wells Fargo shareholders from a meeting just because the CEO doesn't like their statements, well, I wouldn't be happy about doing that job. Protecting private property and serving corporate interests, no, I wouldn't take that sort of abuse happily.
                Has it ever occurred to you that you're not half as clever as you think, and the person you're condescending to might actually know a bunch of shit you don't know?  Take your smug ass through any academy - police, fire, or EMS - survive one fucking day in our lives, and then you can lecture me.   Meanwhile, anyone looking for clues about how and why Occupiers get shit stomped, see above.

                Honest to God, I can't even say what I'm thinking.

            •  I didn't answer the poll, because it doesn't (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              real world chick

              really make sense to me.  You want to shift blame in all case to be at least partially the fault of protesters by saying that citizens have some sort of responsibility to be nice to the same people who regularly brutalize them.  I was in Liberty Plaza in downtown Manhattan since day one and we were nice to the police even after they arrested us and brutalized us.  Do all police departments do this to protesters all the time, of course not, but they certainly do it all the time to some communities.

              In regards to the video, there are cops physically pushing people back.  It looks like the police facing off with the protesters to me.  These sorts of things occasionally get blown up, and this may well be one of the cases, but the fact of the matter is that I have friends who have broken bones because of the police and you want me to pretend like they are our friends and would help us if only we could see it in our hearts to reach out to them.  That's nonsense.

              I'm just not sure what you mean by citizens having "responsibility" for the bad blood, but I certainly don't see it that way.  Some hyperbole in video titles isn't the cause of the bad blood, it's the attacks by the police.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 09:39:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I just watched it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                for the sixth time, and still don't see any example of this:

                In regards to the video, there are cops physically pushing people back.  It looks like the police facing off with the protesters to me.  
                Can you direct me to a specific point in the video?  All I see are police holding their hands up and gesturing, again, to keep the street open.  I even hear one saying please and thank you.

                Again, please tell me exactly where in the video the police are shoving anyone.

              •  With regard to this, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sean X, AoT
                You want to shift blame in all case to be at least partially the fault of protesters by saying that citizens have some sort of responsibility to be nice to the same people who regularly brutalize them.
                First of all, the Detroit police aren't regularly brutalizing Occupiers, according to Occupy Detroit, from the YouTube channel linked above:
                They did their jobs admirably and our relationship with them has been exemplary.
                The fact that Occupy Detroit doesn't think the title implies the police acted out is a separate problem.  

                How do you like it when perfectly nice people show up at an Occupation, make good points, and it gets reported as losers looking for a handout with no clear message?

                the fact of the matter is that I have friends who have broken bones because of the police
                This is what I'm asking you to get:  making every police officer in America guilty of every bad act by any police officer is as bad as saying every Occupier is a vandal because the black bloc are.

                Do you really not understand that?  It seems very simple to me.

                The bottom line is that GE is screwing both the citizens and first responders by not pulling their weight in society.  I think we all know that.  The Detroit police live in a hellscape where they try to protect their citizens the best they can -- as do their firefighters and EMTs.  Having Occupiers malign them while they do so is counterproductive, and frankly obnoxious as hell.

                •  It is not the same at all. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sean X
                  This is what I'm asking you to get:  making every police officer in America guilty of every bad act by any police officer is as bad as saying every Occupier is a vandal because the black bloc are.
                  I'm not saying anything about individual officers, I'm saying that the police as an institution is the problem.  The police, even "good" police like the ones in Wisconsin everyone here loves, have serious problems with violence.  To blame the citizens for that is outrageous. I'm wondering if you understand that the police is more than just a bunch of people and is in fact an institution that is and has been used to perpetrate violence on certain segments of society.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 07:46:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We actually agree (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    for the most part.

                    The distinction I'm asking you to make here is that I come from within the first responder community.  I'm trying to inject some cultural subtext, because it's really important.

                    I'm not saying anything about individual officers, I'm saying that the police as an institution is the problem.  
                    When you malign a large group of police officers who did nothing wrong, as Occupy Detroit did here, individual first responders -- including firefighters and paramedics -- take it very personally.
                    The police, even "good" police like the ones in Wisconsin everyone here loves, have serious problems with violence.  To blame the citizens for that is outrageous.
                    I guess what I'm asking for is a bit less of a Boolean mindset.  It isn't 100% either party, it's a two-way street.  Do you not see how the term "face-off" is loaded, and implies confrontation where there was only support?

                    Also, I have to challenge the idea that it's "outrageous" to assert that citizens ever do anything to legitimately piss us off.  I'm asking you to reconsider the tone you take in the conversation overall, not just here with me.

                    Despite what civilians often tell me, firefighters and paramedics get shit on by the public constantly.  We're not allowed to push back in any way, shape, or form, so you're mostly unaware of it.  But many firefighters and paramedics fucking hate you all because of the way you act.  Maintaining morale is a Herculean task for many of us.  

                    Are you aware that we don't have 1st Amendment protection?  Any idea what the implications are of that?

                    The police help us do our jobs all the time.  You seldom hear about that, either.  They are the only ones who ever get to push back against you, and sometimes they go overboard.  But I promise you it looks very different from our side, and when you counter our input with words like "ridiculous" and "outrageous," well, it eases the pain of seeing you get punched in the face.

                    I'm wondering if you understand that the police is more than just a bunch of people and is in fact an institution that is and has been used to perpetrate violence on certain segments of society.

                    You do understand that I've personally been indoctrinated by more than one such agency, right?  Fire department, EMS agencies, and the military.  Have you ever done any of those things?  If not, do you see how it might be a little annoying to have that information coming from you to me in quite this way?

                    What I'm saying is, Occupiers need to re-assess their attitudes and communications with first responders.  As things are now, even the ones who were initially friendly (though not able to come forward) have most likely had to withdraw support.

                    •  Okay, first (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sean X

                      All first responders are not the police, and speaking as if they are muddies the subject.  They work together at times but the police have a very specific role.  That said, sometimes other first responders do play a police role.  In San Francisco they police use ambulances to break up protests some times.  In New York they did the same thing with fire trucks.  Those are fairly rare though, in my experience.

                      Also, I have to challenge the idea that it's "outrageous" to assert that citizens ever do anything to legitimately piss us off.  I'm asking you to reconsider the tone you take in the conversation overall, not just here with me.
                      I didn't say no one ever did anything to piss off police officers, My issue is that you blame citizens for the actions of the officers.  Being pissed off isn't an excuse to abuse your power, especially when it includes the power to kill.  And I'll say it again.  In New York we did our best to be on good terms with the police officers and it did nothing to stop them from beating people up or pepper spraying people.  Not every cop beat people up or pepper sprayed people, but they all supported those who did.
                      What I'm saying is, Occupiers need to re-assess their attitudes and communications with first responders.  As things are now, even the ones who were initially friendly (though not able to come forward) have most likely had to withdraw support.
                      And what exactly do you suggest?  Why is it our responsibility yet again to make nice with the police.  Note: Not first responders, the police. The problem is not with the fire department or paramedics, it's with the police.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 08:48:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sean X

                        for being willing to exchange ideas.

                        All first responders are not the police, and speaking as if they are muddies the subject.  
                        In your mind, maybe.  In our minds, police, firefighters, and paramedics are on the same team.  Civilians are the opposing team.  Civilians definitely widen that rift with the way they talk to and about us, whether they get it or not.

                        Think of it this way; you probably think of Afghans, Iranians, and Pakis as three entirely separate groups, right?  Well, they are, and they aren't.  Their languages are largely mutually intelligible.  They do have entirely separate cultures, but when the rubber meets the road, they identify more with each other than with Americans.  It's the same thing with first responders and civilians.  I have a mutual language and shared experience with the police that I do not have with civilians.

                        They work together at times but the police have a very specific role.  
                        Actually we work together all the time.  Firefighters and paramedics literally could not do our jobs without the police, and vice versa.  Be clear on that; we're a team all day every day, in combat-like situations.
                        That said, sometimes other first responders do play a police role.  
                        Police also play paramedic and firefighter sometimes.  I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up on scene to find a police officer attempting to control bleeding, assist with childbirth, or holding a ladder up to a burning building.  This is what I'd like you to consider:  things look very, very different from our side.

                        Occupiers tend to view us from within their little bubble of Occupy and what they've seen on the news.  For us, Occupy is a tiny fragment of what goes on in our world.  We're out there solving problems together literally day and night, 24/7/365.  You need to take a much wider perspective IMO.

                        In San Francisco they police use ambulances to break up protests some times.  In New York they did the same thing with fire trucks.  Those are fairly rare though, in my experience.
                        The examples you gave have nothing to do with what I'm talking about; those are agency-level decisions.  That may seem purely semantic to you, but from within the culture, there's a huge difference.  We are not our agencies, and vice versa.  The idea that collaboration is rare is an optical illusion that happens when you're at a civilian vantage point. Collaboration is constant.  The police are not as guilty as you make them out to be, and firefighters/medics aren't a completely separate issue.
                        I didn't say no one ever did anything to piss off police officers, My issue is that you blame citizens for the actions of the officers.  
                        I never used the word "blame"; it's overly reductive IMO, and shuts down problem-solving.  I'm asking you to inject some nuance into a position that I believe is overly black and white.  
                        Being pissed off isn't an excuse to abuse your power, especially when it includes the power to kill.  
                        Something that I have no idea how to communicate to civilians, and maybe you can help me with this.    The government's abuse of power gets inflicted on first responders before it works through the system to infringing on civilians.  Before your 1st amendment rights get curtailed, ours have been incinerated.  Same with privacy.  You're not telling us anything we don't know and haven't experienced.
                        And I'll say it again.  In New York we did our best to be on good terms with the police officers and it did nothing to stop them from beating people up or pepper spraying people.

                        I don't know if you looked at the other comments, but I suggested to Sean X that we need to take a longer view and vary the Occupy strategy situationally.

                        Not every cop beat people up or pepper sprayed people, but they all supported those who did.
                        OK, let me just throw out a scenario.  Let's say there's 10 people who are going out for pizza.  What are the chances of 100% agreement on toppings?  Or 5 people define the word "love" and come up with the same definition?  Virtually impossible, I think.  

                        So how is it possible that in an agency the size of NYPD, they all agree about anything at all?  Do you not see how bizarre that statement looks to us?  Remember, we don't have 1st Amendment rights.  In context, silence is not agreement, though it may look like it from outside.  I guarantee you the internal discussions are intense.

                        So let me again suggest that it would be good to inject some nuance.  This idea that the police are monolithic serves the 1% very well, and it drives people like me insane trying to convince civilians otherwise.

                        And what exactly do you suggest?  
                        I have an entire blog devoted largely to those suggestions.  For one, we need to focus more support on police whistleblowers.  Most importantly though, we need Occupiers to wrap their heads around what I'm saying in this blog.  Insiders don't get listened to.  

                        That person from Occupy Detroit is incredibly rude and condescending, apparently s/he feels that having talked to a mounted officer at a protest makes him/her more of an expert on blue shirt culture than I am.  That is something that needs to change, IMO, if we actually want to win this.  You need to get civilians and blue shirts on the same page, and this is not the way to do it.

                        Why is it our responsibility yet again
                        ::squealing brakes sound::  Hold.  That approach right there is not going to come across as reality-based to any first responder.  In our world, civilians get themselves into problems that we then get them out of.  We have more responsibilities and less rights than civilians do.  This isn't you taking responsibility "yet again," it's you getting on the path to catching up with us 10 miles down.

                        And the reason it's your responsibility is that you're the one who is actually empowered, though it doesn't seem that way.  The system shackles us on the way in the door.  What the 1% fear most is a clear line of communication between us and civilians, and they've socially engineered that very well.  I'm asking to you step back and see a different perspective that will serve the mission.

                        to make nice with the police.  Note: Not first responders, the police. The problem is not with the fire department or paramedics, it's with the police.
                        Here's where you're very wrong again.  I am confident in asserting that the vast majority of us are sick to death of making nice with civilians.  Remember, we don't get to set boundaries with you people.  We don't get to speak.  We are "the help," and they (both the system and the civilians) never let us forget it.  

                        I would drop the whole idea that you're tired of "making nice" with the police.  You're not doing them a favor, you're moving the ball towards the goal.  It's that simple.

                        This division between us and the police is true within our own tribal groups.  However, go back to the Iranian/Afghan/Paki analogy.  Each of those groups is very clear on who America is to them, regardless of who they are to each other.  It's the same with us.

                        Ultimately Occupiers need to take a different perspective that will be more strategically sound.  It requires integrating a lot of nuance that unfortunately most people seem to simply get defensive about.

  •  DFHs deserve all the pepper-spray they get (0+ / 0-)

    Beatings are too good for them,,

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 07:24:23 PM PDT

    •  I'm a DFH (0+ / 0-)

      I'm also a first responder.  I'm also an adult who wants the new paradigm to reign supreme.

      •  ActivistGuy's comment was snark. (0+ / 0-)

        Subtle snark, but snark none-the-less.

        The perfect is NOT the enemy of the good. The perfect is the course you advocate in order to ARRIVE at the good. When you choose the path of merely good, inevitably you wind up at meh.

        by WisePiper on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 10:49:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It wasn't subtle (0+ / 0-)

          but I don't know him, so it could be interpreted either way.

          Nonetheless, he doesn't know me, either.  Make no mistake what my intentions are here; I'm an Occupy supporter and have been all along.

          But this attitude, so rampant in the poll especially, makes me have to really re-think it.  Maybe we need a version of Occupy that's for adults, if this is how it is.  This is why first responders can't get on board, FYI, the idea that they and they alone take responsibility for the relationship.

          •  Don't take that poll seriously (0+ / 0-)

            Even if it were well-written and people responded seriously and sincerely and if it were a large sample (many responders), it would still only be a poll of registered D-Kossers who chose to open this diary and chose to respond to the poll. Good grief.

            Resistance Is Fertile - Occupy

            by Sean X on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 05:12:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It was actually intended (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sean X

              to make people think about what their attitudes are.

              Unfortunately I do think the brattiness is rampant.  This is nowhere near the first time this has bothered me.

              •  Maybe now we need some of our livestreamers to (0+ / 0-)

                engage in some discussions and/or interviews on the topic of brattiness.

                Resistance Is Fertile - Occupy

                by Sean X on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 05:58:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think if we can (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sean X

                  just get people to entertain the idea that maybe the other community (i.e., uniformed personnel) legitimately sees things very differently, that would help.  For example, I frequently state opinions on these things that get automatically dismissed as "ridiculous," "bullshit," etc.  

                  That's all well and fine when people don't really give a shit.  But once you go through the ordeal of leaving the civilian world behind, things are 100% serious in a way that can't be retracted.  Then a very high percentage of us develop PTSD, making it really hard to be patient.  

                  Then civilians say things like the comment in this thread, that police should have bottomless patience for any abuse short of physical.  The fact that they get physically abused all the time apparently rocketed past that poster at a high rate of speed.  The fact that no human being can be 100% patient 100% of the time -- much less with PTSD on board -- is also a non-factor to him/her.  We're not cartoon characters, you know?

  •  I suspect the title of this video, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Xavier Onassis EMTP

    written by the person who posted it to youtube, was just intended to be descriptive of what was in the video and not to imply much hostility or violence. The video is hardly worth a view or a mention, in my opinion.

    I do love to see positive human interchange between the police and protesters, as in the video featured in the "I raised my voice on Wall St." diary posted this morning. It shows, I think, things moving in the right direction--the protesters weren't bratty and the police weren't thuggish. Everyone was just sort of, you know... doing their job. Interesting to note that the protesters who laid down with the signs (to draw heat away from other protesters, as I recall), WERE SILENT, except perhaps speaking in a conversational tone to the police as they were being arrested.

    Reduction of bratishness by protesters might be aided by having more older citizens present. Also groups of young adults who strategize, instead of just reacting in a scattered manner seems to help.

    Reducing police thuggary, Im not sure. What can be done towards this on the part of protesters?I guess it varies by what kind of police you are facing, hardcore proven thugs or cops who might go either way.

    Resistance Is Fertile - Occupy

    by Sean X on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 04:36:26 AM PDT

    •  Thanks Sean (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with everything you said.

      I suspect the title of this video, written by the person who posted it to youtube, was just intended to be descriptive of what was in the video and not to imply much hostility or violence.
      Scenario:  Say Occupy shows up at a Special Olympics to protest defunding of programs for the disabled, right?  They show up, the kids feel the love, we let it be known that we value everybody in our society.  Then the local news station reports:  "Occupiers face off with disabled children at Special Olympics."  Sound good?  Or is that propaganda?

      There was no face off here.

      It shows, I think, things moving in the right direction--the protesters weren't bratty and the police weren't thuggish.
      I agree, I loved that video as well, same reason.  I think one good step in the right direction would be for our community to notice that sometimes our people ARE bratty.  That would be a huge step in the right direction.  Look how many people voted that they play no role in the creation of bad blood between police and protestors.  Being blind to your own bad behavior doesn't excuse you IMO.
    •  Reducing thuggery (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sean X

      is a bit of a harder issue.  One thing that would help IMO would be for our community to get that the same police who bully Occupiers also bully co-workers who really are there to serve and protect.  This is not a monolith, it's a huge collection of humans inside a political structure.

      Reducing police thuggary, Im not sure. What can be done towards this on the part of protesters?I guess it varies by what kind of police you are facing, hardcore proven thugs or cops who might go either way.
      I think that the most helpful thing will be to have more people taking the long view; recognize that sometimes things will go one way and sometimes the other, and don't get sucked in.

      Look at it this way:  the Occupation has exposed which of our police departments suck from the top down, and which ones are hard-working, good people who fight for their civilians.  

      The Albany police refused to be dicks.  Detroit has apparently been great.  Philly police read the constitution over the radio in case anybody forgot what it says.  I think the department linked above is Atlanta.

      Then we have Oakland, Portland, New York, Denver, and others that we now see in the clear light of day.  Now that we've identified who's who, we need to develop different strategies for places where we've seen major problems.  Like don't meet the Oakland Police on their terms.  They called in the worst people from all around for that little hoedown.  Maybe throwing them fresh, crackable skulls isn't the best plan for the particular area.

      IMO the best thing to do is focus on, "The inconvenience sucks, but we're trying to change the world here."

      It's maddening to me, that people don't even see what's wrong with the title of this video, or how shitty it looks to an ethical first responder.

    •  It's so painfully clear (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      from those who actually know, that the police have been systematically abusive, I'm not sure what the purpose of this diary really is.

      Did anyone see Montreal last night?

      "A Republic, if you can keep it."

      by Publius2008 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 09:02:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the purpose is (0+ / 0-)

        to mediate between the two communities.

        It's very common for one or both parties to believe they are 100% wrong and the other party is 100% right.  It precludes improving the situation, though, unless both parties can get that they have a hand in the situation.

        I'll assert for your consideration that the police are not a monolith; that there are many among the uniformed personnel who not only would love to see the system change, but have vitally important inside information that could facilitate that happening if they had any civilian support.

        Does the attitude you've displayed here help or hinder that goal?  Will it be easier to change the system from outside or inside?

        •  Haha! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          Of course I reversed that.  

          It's very common for one or both parties to believe they are 100% wrong and the other party is 100% right.
          If everyone looked at their own accountability there would be no mediation needed.
        •  I don't know that this is the place to do it (0+ / 0-)

          Nor does now seem like it might too late.  After you've been regularly abused by the police you aren't likely to be open to mediation, especially when there has been virtually zero accountability on the police side while occupiers continue to be abuse.

          Where you are might be a different story. I don't know the situation in Detroit, but in Oakland and New York the police are beyond mediation as far as I'm concerned.  These problems have been brewing for a long time.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 02:09:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's what (0+ / 0-)

            I really need you to understand:

            After you've been regularly abused by the police you aren't likely to be open to mediation
            ,
            The police (and firefighters and paramedics) feel exactly the same way about you.  When you get abused by the police, it tends to be in single, dramatic incidents.  Us getting abused by you is like the law of gravity in our world.  I don't know how else to explain this.  The idea that you're the rightfully aggrieved party and we owe you an explanation sounds bizarre to us.
            especially when there has been virtually zero accountability on the police side while occupiers continue to be abuse.
            Do you have any idea of the fury that gets unleashed on police whistleblowers?  The only chance they have is for civilians to take up the charge -- which they almost never do.  So there's zero accountability on systemic abuse of first responders -- either by agencies or civilians.

            The part civilians don't seem to understand is that they are the ones with the actual power, not the first responders.  Our worlds are governed by politicians, who (at least in theory) answer to you.  They own us, not unlike chattel.

            These problems have been brewing for a long time.
            Yes, they really have.  Welcome to our world.
            •  Once again, this has nothing to do with (0+ / 0-)

              Paramedics and Firefighters.  This has to do with the police.

              Do you have any idea of the fury that gets unleashed on police whistleblowers?  The only chance they have is for civilians to take up the charge -- which they almost never do.
              They never do because there is generally a majority that will support the police no matter what they do and vote against anything or anyone who might want to restrain the police.  Police violence is an epidemic in our country and we can't even talk about it without someone imploring us to think of the feelings of those imposing that violence on us.  And the violence isn't just short bursts, it's part of a larger systematic violence that the police are part and parcel of.

              And I definitely am aware of the fury unleashed on police whistle blowers, it's part of the institution of the police.  In fact, at this point I think we'd be best of just getting rid of the police and just starting over with something new.  Maybe similar powers, but different people and a different mission.  Although without massive changes in other parts of our society I imagine that it will end up in the same place as it is now.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 04:35:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is what (0+ / 0-)

                makes my brain explode:

                Once again, this has nothing to do with Paramedics and Firefighters.  This has to do with the police.
                I am a paramedic and a firefighter.  I'm telling you this idea that you and many other civilians have is 100% false. What's the deal?  I realize the communication gap is deeply ingrained.  I'm asking you to hear what I'm saying.  What do I need to do?

                Do you not see how maddening it is to have people who have never even been to my world opine to me on why it's messed up and how it needs to change, while completely disregarding my input re: same as though I were wrong and they were right?  Do you really not get how aggravating that is?

                •  So your saying that firefighters get (0+ / 0-)

                  people that hate them because they systematically inflict violence on communities?

                  Let me ask a different question then.  What does the antagonism OWS feels toward the police have to do with Firefighters and paramedics, because I just don't see the connection other than they are all first responders.  I never see people saying "Fuck the Firefighters!"  or "Fuck the Paramedics!" while I do see people saying "Fuck the Police!"  and I completely understand what the difference from that side is.  So how does that translate into needing to mediate between us and paramedics and firefighters?

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 04:51:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No (0+ / 0-)
                    So your saying that firefighters get people that hate them because they systematically inflict violence on communities?
                    No, that's you taking what I said and pasting it into your frame.  I'm saying that firefighters, paramedics, AND police get shit on by citizens continually.  Constantly.  Literally every day.  You have this whole other mythology about the police that makes us feel sorry for them.  Probably sounds bizarre to you, but it's true.

                    I know you think the only beef is that sometimes the police abuse the citizens.  What I don't seem to be able to communicate is that the abuse by citizens on us is constant.  Usually lower level, except when someone shoots or stabs one of us, or threatens to spit in our eyes like one of my AIDS frequent flyers does.  

                    But even more so, there's a certain condescension and dehumanization that I don't seem able to get most Occupiers to notice.  You all feel entitled to take any potshot you want at us, all the while quite certain that we owe you an apology.

                    So how does that translate into needing to mediate between us and paramedics and firefighters?
                    Because every civilian believes -- for some unknown reason -- that they know just as much about our world as we do.  They demand that everything happen within their frame, even when they would actually get what they want a lot better and quicker if they'd try our frame out for once.

                    It's utterly maddening.  Very few of us even attempt to talk to you people, are you aware of that?

                    •  I've actually known a number of paramedics (0+ / 0-)

                      and a firefighter or two.  I have heard stories about the crap they have to deal with, but they certainly aren't on the side of the police and definitely don't identify with them.

                      I do however see what your saying now and I can see how that could be a problem.  I'm not sure how much of this is local to you and how much of it is everywhere.  Do you have experiences in places other than Detroit?  Or could this be Detroit specific?

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 05:25:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've never actually (0+ / 0-)

                        been to Detroit.  But it's a hotspot for first responders right now, because it's the largest city where our safety infrastructure has actually crumbled.   New Orleans is screwed blue, too.

                        Detroit is so weakened right now, politically, that the firefighters and paramedics are coming right out and giving their opinions on camera.  That's unheard of in our world.  The city is so powerless that the good police have taken over.  In a way it's a good thing, but actually it's a sign of pending disaster.

                        I have heard stories about the crap they have to deal with, but they certainly aren't on the side of the police and definitely don't identify with them.
                        I don't know if you saw the Iran/Afgh/Paki analogy I made above.  It's like that.  Amongst ourselves?  Yes, the police are dicks a lot of the time.  But we have a unique worldview that is closer to theirs than to civilian.  And a lot of things civilians believe about police are wrong in a way that's really obvious to us.

                        Mind you, I know medics that have been pulled over by the cops while running lights and sirens with a dying person in the back.  No shit.  But I also see cops doing all kinds of things they don't have to do, constantly solving problems for people.  They don't get thanked or acknowledged for those things.

                        I do however see what your saying now and I can see how that could be a problem.  I'm not sure how much of this is local to you and how much of it is everywhere.  Do you have experiences in places other than Detroit?  Or could this be Detroit specific?
                        I think this is a somewhat universal thing, really.  I blog about this extensively, I think if we can get a good line of communication going where civilians listen to us, we can really carry the day with a lot less blood, sweat and tears.  Put it this way:  the 1% has gone to great lengths to make sure you and I don't compare notes.  Why do you think that is?  Hmmmm....

                        Bayonne's Bravest

                        Here's a good sort of primer on internal police friction
                        Cops Behaving Badly:  West Palm Beach

                        My thoughts on first responders and Anonymous joining forces
                        The Path to a Just Society

                        One of my responses to a tiny fire department getting repeatedly curb stomped by unreasonable civilians
                        Obion County Firefighters:  Still Not Guilty

                        There are others you may find helpful, if you're interested in reading them let me know.

                        Thanks

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