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Christians are trying to muscle their way into our public square and regulate our lives using a holy book that contradicts science. The question is whether we go back to the dark ages or use accumulated human knowledge to progress to a better future. Do we allow ancient norms and values to regulate our society or do we allow science to help point the way forward?

Consider the benefits of science. It was science that took us to the moon and back.  Science explains where we live and how we got here. Science teaches us how to live, prolongs our lives, and provides us with labor saving products and services.

On the other hand, the Bible tells us the earth is approximately 6000 years old, donkeys can talk, axe heads can float, diseases can be caused by demons, and dead people can live again. Science disputes these claims.

Which is right, science or the Bible?  Science is continually undergoing intense scrutiny and making adjustments based on test results. That's how science works. But can we test the Bible?

Yes, the Bible can be tested using it's own criteria (Mal 3:10). Elijah did it on Mount Carmel (I Kings 18:36-39). And Jesus proposed a test that can easily be measured. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him." (Mk 11:23)

A mountain relocated to the sea will be totally miraculous! The question will be resolved and the Bible will be proven true!

Meanwhile, as we wait for Grandfather Mountain to be moved off Cape Hatteras, I hope Christians will respect other religions and non-believers the way they would like to be respected.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Amazing. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Prinny Squad, emelyn
    Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him." (Mk 11:23)
    That's obviously a delusional statement.  
    But then lots of people delude themselves by believing that Jesus was not delusional.  
    •  To be fair... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milkbone, Ashaman, Steven D, Mortifyd

      Who knows if Jesus said that, or what he really said about anything.  After all, NONE of the 4 gospels were written by men who ever actually met him...

      "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

      by Brian A on Thu May 10, 2012 at 09:52:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But they were divinely inspired! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wilderness voice

        Despite looking much like some sort of scam concocted by fallible humans, this was God's plan all along. I mean, if Jesus had, say, used his magical heat vision to inscribe the truth in letters thirty feet high into the rocks of Jerusalem then we wouldn't have to take all this on faith, and believing things with no evidence is one of the most important parts of Christianity, or indeed most religions.

      •  Not so. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bubbanomics, wilderness voice

        Mathew and John the Apostle both knew Jesus personally.

      •  None of the New Testament was written by (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emelyn

        anyone who knew Jesus. Paul's letters were written by a man who had a hallucinogenic experience where he was blinded and heard voices from the sky.  The earliest gospel was written 30-40 years after Jesus died.  How much of the sayings in the Gospels attributed to Jesus were actually stated by him cannot be proven.

        Then throw in the fact that all of the Gospels contradict each of the others (especially John) and it is impossible to know what Jesus really said.  All we can do is make our best guess based on those instances where the Gospels agree on what he said.

        "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

        by Steven D on Thu May 10, 2012 at 10:10:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why can't the nut jobs just accept... (0+ / 0-)

          that the bible was NEVER meant to be a historical document.  Just like I don't read Aesop's fables and believe that a turtle really beat a rabbit in a race, I would never read the bible and believe that these events actually occurred.  

          The bible is a collection of fables, written down to guide man into behaving correctly, not a word-for-word verbatim account of history.

        •  You never heard of (0+ / 0-)

          the contemporaneous 'Q'?

          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

            And it is a "document" that was speculated to exist by German biblical historians around 1900.  No one has ever found a copy, and if they did, who could prove that those sayings were accurately recorded?  Jesus after all was speaking to a largely illiterate population during his "ministry."  

            "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

            by Steven D on Thu May 10, 2012 at 02:56:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Of course... (0+ / 0-)

        .. we don't even know if such a character ever existed or if he ever said any of the things his promoters said about him.  But -- to be fair -- if he's given cheers for 'feeding the poor' stuff, then he also deserves jeers for nonsense like the moving-mountain stuff.  

  •  Many of the bible thumpers believe it is true (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wilderness voice, Prinny Squad

    because it says in the bible itself that all those people witnessed these events.

    I've seen this argued on other blogs and the people saying the bible is all true won't see the illogical conclusion in their affirmation that it's all true.

    It's like saying Comic Books are true because people displayed in the comic books witnessed those events.

    Circular reasoning based in fear and faith of belief over reason.

    -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

    by Vayle on Thu May 10, 2012 at 10:07:29 AM PDT

    •  and their reactions are interesting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Prinny Squad

      when you point out to them that chapter 1 and chapter 2 of Genesis tell different creation stories.

      •  My family was frustrated with me bacause as a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wilderness voice

        child, I would not blindly accept the faith they insisted I should have.

        I refused to go to bible school and would stay for the adult sermons. All I could see was the hypocrisy of people.

        When I had questions, my hair got tousled as if my cute question did not deserve an answer. When I pressed later (still as a young child), their cast off actions became distress. That distress told me a lot about the true lack of faith in many people who make a claim to faith.

        -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

        by Vayle on Thu May 10, 2012 at 10:20:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's the most disturbing part of Christianity... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vayle

          or really any main stream religion, is that it's not acceptable to question these outrageous stories you're told.  It's either blindly accept a clearly made-up story or be considered a sinning non-believer.

          Like in school, we'd be taught to think critically, question things that don't quite add up, but as soon as you step into a church, you're supposed to turn your brain off and believe what you're told.  If I didn't know any better, modern day Christianity has all the makings of a good cult.

          •  My definition for religion is a cult which gets (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wilderness voice

            big enough and has been around long enough to shake off the 'cult' name. It's doesn't mean it is not a cult, but they get to use the big boy word of religion as opposed to still having to accept the cult label.

            -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

            by Vayle on Thu May 10, 2012 at 10:53:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You mean you got them to listen to you? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wilderness voice

        So few of these cultists actually read their own damn book.

        And if they do, they gloss over the logic-issues horrific-events by pretending it "meant something different back then/in the original language/blah blah", or listening to whatever their priest/preacher/whatever says it actually means even though the black-and-white text obviously means something horrible they don't want to admit.

        It'd be funny, if there weren't people like that in power in our secular government, Jesus-fying it, and damaging America's progress, as well as the progress of science and humanity in general.

        People have the right to believe whatever stupid things they want. They don't have the right to make civil-rights-destroying laws, oppress women, kill abortion doctors, or attack gay people because of said-stupid beliefs.

  •  Christians have every right (0+ / 0-)

    to participate in the public square, and they should not have to muscle their way into to do so.

    •  And they don't have a right to... (0+ / 0-)

      forcefully impose their beliefs onto other people.  I don't think they got the memo, but not everyone is Christian.  In fact (shocker!) not everyone is religious at all.  So for these religious nuts to force their religious laws into public laws violates my right to be free from religious oppression.

      •  They are entitled to their opinions (0+ / 0-)

        the same as anyone else, and they are entitled to equal protection and to vote. So yes, their collective opinion often becomes law with all of its associated force. Same for any other interest group.

        They cannot however create laws that violate your civil rights, so if you have an example of that it would be different.

        •  Which is it? (0+ / 0-)

          Do Christians have to "muscle their way into the public square" as you claim in your first post, or do Christians have so much power that "their collective opinion often becomes law with all of its associated force" as you claim in your next post?

          Here are some examples of where Christian laws violate my civil rights:

          Marriage laws: Christians say we can't marry those of the same sex

          Sodomy laws: Christians say, even if married, I can not have anal or oral sex with my partner

          Blue laws: Christians say certain creative works are forbidden and I may not purchase them

          I know, you will argue that those laws don't violate my civil rights because the Christian courts have decided that I do not have those rights.

          •  I did not make the claim (0+ / 0-)

            that Christians have to muscle their way into the public square, I was actually refuting that. And that in no way contradicts the entirely obvious truth that persons with collective interests and beliefs will often, with the power of voting, create laws that reflect their interests and beliefs. Christian or not.

            As for the second part, thanks for pointing out that your examples make no sense. You are correct that you do not have a Civil Right to same sex marriage or anal sex.

            In addition, those laws were created by society itself and often overturned by that very same society. They cannot be attributed solely to Christians when they are often strongly supported by Jews, Muslims, agnostics and the religiously disinterested.

            •  Read your own comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SuzieQ4624

              You said "Christians have every right to participate in the public square and they should not have to muscle their way in to do so."

              Why would you mention that they should not have to do so? By mentioning that they should not have to muscle their way in to the public square, you imply that they DO have to muscle their way in.

              Yet in the very next comment, you say that Christians have so much power that "their collective opinion often becomes law with all of its associated force"

              You imply Christians have to force their way into the public square, yet you acknowledge Christians are the dominant force in our culture.

              You are confused. I think it might be due to your religion.

              The reason I do not have those rights is because Christian judges have decided I do not. Your circular definition of rights amounts to "Whatever Christian judges say you have" so there is no way Christians could possibly violate my rights, as they are the ones controlling what my rights are. Very clever. But wrong, and sort of evil.

              You know who never made laws like the ones I mention? Atheists or agnostics.

              But I see that you are plainly disinterested in honest dialogue and merely want to defend your religious beliefs. Have fun with that, it's just "blah blah blah" to me.

              •  Another example of Christian Law nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                my inability to buy/sell liquor on Sundays in most counties of my state...

                Only Christian and Jewish clergy are allowed to administer last rights to a prisoner or soilder.  No other religions are allowed.

                Churches get tax exempt status for no apparent reason.  They make billions in profits every year.

                And yes, gay rights, gay marriage is illegal because Christians don't think it's holy.  Or as they so eloquently put it "god hates fags".

                Putting up a cross at the WTC in memory - when all the victims were not Christian.  That's offensive.

                Forcing kids, up until very recently, to recite the Pledge of Allegience, which references god.

                Having "One Nation Under God" on our money.

                Having the Ten Commandents carved in stone outside of many, many courthouses around the US.

                Trying to prevent access to abortions, birth control and other contraception because life is so holy and precious.  Also, legally, now life begins when the sperm touches the egg because the bible says so.

                Srsly, do you need more examples?

                Christianity and all the followers (or cult members) are either blind to the fact that not everyone believes in this shit or they just don't care.  Either way, your wrong.  My rights are trampled all the freaking time for Christians weird morals and ancient story book beliefs.

    •  We all have every right (0+ / 0-)

      to participate in the public square. And every right to have our political positions informed by our beliefs and ethics. The "muscling in" has to do with the heavy-handed attempts to violate the letter and spirit of our secular Constitution by encoding specifically religious beliefs into the "Law of the Land."

      That is what NC did when it passed a law against same sex marriage, then voted to amend the state constitution to ensure that law could never be overturned.

      But, just as the 1875 NC constitutional amendment "forever" forbidding citizens to marry outside their race turned out not to be so "forever" after all, this too shall pass. And a hundred years from now people will still be amazed and disgusted that they ever tried to impose people's mate choices.

      By the way, I can't recall a single instance of the secular government ever attempting to force Christians by law to marry anybody at all. Do you?

  •  In my heart, I want Grandfather Mt to STAY where (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau

    it is.  So unless you've got more pull than me, it ain't gonna move, at least not in my lifetime. :P

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Thu May 10, 2012 at 10:21:05 AM PDT

  •  Bible promotes science (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emelyn, homo neurotic

    The Bible is all about convincing the most zealous of believers that science is to be believed and that the Bible is not to be believed.  By spinning the most unbelievable yarns one has ever heard the Bible is testing believer’s common sense.

    Man created god to elevate man.

  •  Jesus did a good job on Mt. Rushmore (0+ / 0-)

    After coming to "the New World" Jesus, as we all know, gathered Native Americans, then called "Indians", around in a circle where he talked about the Golden Rule. Then he went to Branson, Missouri, where he set up the first hotel and theater on the continent.

    From there it was up to the Dakotas. Knowing all past, present and future, it was little problem for him to carve out the heads of Presidents-to-be.

    Finally, he stopped off in what became New York state, where he supervised the burial of golden tablets that could be deciphered with special "seer stones". Then he whooshed off.

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