Hi there all --
This is rexymeteorite, and I am introducing my new group "Courtesy Kos" and the new diary series "This Weeks Best in Civility"
I formed this group earlier this week out of a reaction to Kos' recent post about meta that blew up into an out-and-out flame war at the top of the comments section. This group is dedicated to fighting the flamewars through leadership by example. We hold ourselves to the highest standard possible of civility and respect for our fellow kossack. Not only that, but our group is dedicated to the ongoing discussion about what civility is and how to raise the level of civil discourse here at dailykos.
To that end, I have compiled some of our members thoughts about civility, respect, and civil discourse and would like to present them to you.
From Smoh
1. Disagree with an idea, do not disparage the individual.
2. Avoid blanket statements like, "that's completely wrong!". Instead something along the lines of, "I think it's more accurate to say..."
3. Discussions, disagreements never have to be angry...try to find common ground rather than flat out rejecting someone else's idea.
4. Sometimes I feel like...you're avoiding certain facts, you're not listening to me, you simply want to be angry.
5. Try to truly listen to the other. Civilly ask for clarification when you are appalled that the same information held by two people can result in completely opposite views. Explore where and how the facts led to divergent beliefs."
From
bjedward
[...]as i reflect on this, I think it also important to understand how we are impacted by the flurry of things that take place around us, the facts and the events. How we react to the recommendations of others for action or policy.
And as an engineer, it's hard to write this, but yes, to allow people to speak of feelings. How they feel about these things. It is important that they express their feelings, and in doing so not impugn or attribute motives to others. But the causality of "X said this" and "Y did that" and I feel this way about it is important to understand.
It does not then say we should deny X or Y the opportunity to speak as they did. But the impact of our advice, our thoughts, our policies, our actions on others is very important to the discussion too.
And this is where it can difficult, because feelings are so personal. They're mind. I feel this way about President Obama. I wish he would do more of this. I wish he did that differently. I wish he wouldn't do something else.
So this will be a challenge. But in the end, I think, sticking to our own personal feelings blended with the facts and acts of others, and not impugning and not insulting others will go a long way towards having a community we all love being part of.
Perhaps it is passe to say so ... but respect in the end is at the core of this. Respecting each other, indeed loving each other, even as we may disagree in some matters. I suspect we care passionately for more things in common than we disagree.
From
blue aardvark
1) We absolutely cannot be seen as participating, at all, in pie fights. Any response to a single comment in a pie fight will be likely be seen by someone as taking sides - and in some pie fights, it will be seen by both sides as taking the other side, especially if you make sense. I think responding to someone who is being uncivil with some sort of "Tsk Tsk" is going to achieve fail. So my first rule is "don't respond to any comment in a pie fight". But this rule is made to be broken (see #2).
2) Exceptions to non-participation in pie fights
a) Smacking an obvious troll around. Recipes and pootie pictures are sometimes needed. Why should we deny ourselves the pleasures of troll hunting? And by "troll" I mean someone that you expect is going to be banned today.
b) Cases where people are misreading and a quick "I think what Kossack X is saying is 'A', not 'B'" can calm matters
c) When you make a non-inflammatory comment and someone starts a pie fight with you. You can defend yourself, politely.
3) No inflammatory and derogatory language aimed at other Kossacks. As noted above, exception can be made for trolls; no other exceptions.
4) No derogatory language aimed at groups (except Republicans, Tea Partiers, and other groups whose membership is exclusively political in definition). For example, we should avoid shots at "fundies", Mormons, Southerners, Texans, and so on. There are members of all of those groups who vote for Democrats. There are members of those groups on this board.
5) Distribute sincere praise when it is deserved. Send examples of civil disagreement to the group via the "Send Message" button, which can be assembled for the Sunday diary
From
Melanie in IA
Anyway, seems to me one way to do this is NOT have a REACTIONARY group, where what we publish (written by us or repubbed) is always a reaction to something else, some flame war, some banning, some nastiness. Also we don't want to be the hall monitors controlling the shoving as the kids run from class to class. Instead, I think highlighting good behavior, modeling good behavior, asking people to tone down personal comments when we see them, AND stepping out of the way if things get to heated, are ways we can successfully improve the tone.
From
mahakali overdrive
--what do you think civil discussion is?
I think civil discussion is discussion which focuses on the conversation/topic, not the person. There are countless instances of discussion on the DK where a conversation really goes sour simply because people have trouble separating the two. Civil discussion is the kind of conversation which I aim for as a teacher. I may have profound disagreements with a student's ideas, but I genuinely like all of my students no matter how weird they are, so when they say something which is wrong, offensive, strange, and so on, I am polite and instructive and urge toward critical thought. To me, my "teacher voice" is civil discussion; it aims to educate, not to denigrate, and it accounts for everyone's personal differences in perception. It's easy sometimes to drop that on this site. But it's worth taking people at their word and addressing the content of their posts.
--What do you think the group guidelines for comments and diaries should be?
I'm not sure yet. I think something like not ever attacking anyone and, when someone is personally attacking you -- other than in cases of obvious, outright trolling -- to thank them for their perspective and, if you can't continue the conversation without personalizing it, to say you're done talking for now, sorry. I do this a lot. Just walk away. Be firm but polite. But how to phrase this? I don't know.
--How can we raise the level of discourse here at dailykos?
The group will inevitably attract malcontents seeing if they can get a rise out of us. That should be ignored. I think one thing that is VITAL is to have people willing to fairly discuss issues from both sides of the fence without namecalling or even denigrating what another side brings to the table. A good example of this is how I talk with some of the pro-nuclear folks on this site who I fiercely disagree with, as an anti-nuclear proponent. I am genuinely understanding of how someone might not share my view. I can even respect this. I feel like talking without being adversarial raises the discourse. I had a teacher once who I really disagreed with politically (a mentor). He was an African-American man who was former military; I was working with a Black Panther in my area on racism in law enforcement issues (and others too). I wound up in a class he was teaching about race in America where we were looking at the Rodney King issue. There was a march I was going to that was related; I asked him if I could announce it in class. He balked and eventually said, "Do what you have to do. We don't see eye-to-eye politically, but I respect your convictions." It was a moment I never will forget. It was humbling. To me, I learned a lot that day by that kind of graciousness. Especially because he often came off as "fierce." To me, that is something I often reflect on and strive toward when talking to someone who may not see things my way. Unsure if this helps, but I hope so. The one case I really can't seem to do that in still, however, is with bigotry. I just can't although occasionally, I've had to IRL and it's all baby steps.
Finally, some of my own thoughts about civility
1) I think the first rule should be as simple as possible. When all else fails, remember kos' saying: "Don't be a Dick". Simple as that.
2) Civility is about respect. Above all else, respect your fellow kossack (exceptions include trolls, shills and republicans, much as Blue Aardvark alluded to above. But even then don't go too overboard. A simple recipe or "fail" photo will suffice. For sure, don't get baited into an out an out flamewar with the troll, shill or republican).
3) Even in the face of extreme disagreement, even hurtful words, members of Courtesy Kos should try to avoid -- at all costs -- getting "hooked". In the call center biz "getting hooked" means responding in kind to an angry customer. In the context of this blog...getting hooked means getting dragged back down into the flame wars by someone looking for a fight. DONT GET HOOKED!!
4) Lead by example. This group is not dedicated to using civility as a bludgeon in a political debate. If you want people to be civil, don't tell them about it! Walk the walk! Become an example of civility.
update: From Calvino Partigiani --
I think that he has done us a favor by disputing the very premise of the Courtesy Kos group, and thereby presenting an early challenge. In my view, civility needs rules, but at the same time cannot be achieved simply by setting out guidelines of what is acceptable language, discourse, etc., and what is not. As jbou points out, this it too easily subverted by sarcasm and so on.
Instead, and as you say in the diary, we should have
leadership by example. We hold ourselves to the highest standard possible of civility and respect for our fellow kossack
To me, this means that we to acknowledge that we absolutely cannot control other people's behavior and language, but rather, we should be decent and civil in spite of the spite.
Indeed, it's very easy to be polite when your opponent is polite. It's extremely difficult when your opponent is obnoxious and vicious.
In short, I think that to be realistic, and effective, people need to be civil and decent, and find creative and constructive ways to deal with those who want nothing to do with nice or respectful discourse.
Although we address these thoughts about civility to our own group, I thought these were some ideas that maybe the community at large could apply to their own comments and diaries.
But, Courtesy Kos is dedicated to leading by example. That is why we all pledge to follow our own guidelines when posting comments and diaries. When you see that a person is a member of Courtesy Kos, it means they are dedicated to civility and respect for all kossacks, regardless of their opinions, affiliations, or cliques.
And to the end of boosting civil discussion at dailykos, our group is introducing a new diary series -- "This Week's Best in Civility". This will be a Top Comments-esque diary series where users are encouraged to send in -- via private message -- the comments and diaries they think are deserving of the special honor -- The weeks best in civility. We do this because civil discussion is rarely recognized and celebrated here. It is my opinion that we should start recognizing those individuals that show a respect to their fellow kossacks, and this diary series will do just that. The series will run every Sunday night around this time. If you do have a comment or diary that you would like to submit as a "best civility" please send any one of our members a private message with a link to the comment or diary. I, and the group, will also be searching around on our own for examples of civility. Look forward to seein' you next week!
So, there is our short introduction.
Now, I will direct the question I asked the members of Courtesy Kos a few days ago to the community at large -- what do you think civility is, and how can we raise the level of civil discourse throughout dailykos.
To borrow a phrase from Something the Dog Said -- "The Floor is Yours"
And now for some administrative type stuff --
Thanks for reading the diary! We at Courtesy Kos love questions and messages, if you want to reach our group, you can do so by sending the group a message. If you would like to join, please toss me or any one of our admins a private message.
Because Courtesy Kos is dedicated to raising the level of discourse around daily kos we politely ask that if you do have a comment that includes personal attacks, viscousness, or past personal fights, please keep it to yourself. This is NOT the venue to re-litigate old meta matters.