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By now, every progressive who signed onto the Internet in the past couple of days has no doubt heard about the explosion generated by the horrible, horrible insult — the utterly fireable insult — that Chris Hayes made against soldiers on Memorial Day in a segment on his Sunday show.

Except that what Hayes said wasn't an insult. On the contrary, instead of the vapid faux patriotism that most commentators, both in print and in the broadcast media, offer up every Memorial Day, Hayes's thoughtful approach was profoundly refreshing and realistic. He didn't disrespect solders. He didn't disrespect heroes. He didn't make a mockery of Memorial Day the way so many politicians, pundits and assorted phonies inevitably, repeatedly and with impunity do.

For his trouble, he was called a "parasite," "reprehensible and disgusting," a "hater" of the troops. Ann Coulter, who gets paid by the pound for her insults, fired up her synapses for a patented slam along the lines of Arnold Schwartzenegger's "girly men" to her 143,000 Twitter followers.

Okay, in case you didn't hear or read what Hayes had to say that spurred the right to launch its mini-crusade, here it is:

I feel uncomfortable about the word "hero" because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect the memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.
That was a single minute of the 12-minute segment. Being the extemporaneous spoken word, it might not have had quite the polish or clarity it could have in a thrice-read-and-edited written commentary. In other words, he might have said it a little better. Nonetheless, I don't get the outrage. In fact, I'm outraged by outrage.

Look at the context. Here's part of what Hayes said in that same segment. Speaking first about Master Sergeant Evander Earl Andrews, who died in Qatar, Oct. 12, 2001, in an accident with a forklift while building an airstrip in preparation for the war in Afghanistan:

He was the first American casualty of Operating Enduring Freedom, the first door knock at the home, the first flag-draped coffin of this long era of war. He left behind a wife and four children. [... His mother said he] "always had a heart for others. I asked her if the wars and the deaths of those who fought them seemed an after-thought in American public life. She said, 'I think people want to go on and not think of war and losing people and deaths and all that stuff." She was critical of the president, telling me she felt he lacked the "feeling for the military that he should have" and she said the cause for which his son died was just. [...] "I think our grief is too private for public ceremonies and such," she said. "It's very hard for us."

Eleven days after Evander Andrews died in Qatar, U.S. warplanes bombed a remote area near Thori village in Afghanistan, apparently targeting a Taliban military base about a kilometer outside the town. According to Human Rights Watch, the bombing killed 23 civilians, the first confirmed civilian casualties of Operation Enduring Freedom. A 25-year-old man named Samiullah tells Human Rights Watch that he was outside the village when the bombs started falling. He rushed back to his home to rescue his family. He arrived at his family compound to find his wife and three of his children dead, the youngest just eight months old.

It is natural to grieve for those we know over those we don't. It is why those of us who are fortunate enough not to have lost anyone in this decade of war can go about merrily barbequing this weekend and not think we're being callous. And it is natural to mourn our countrymen rather than strangers, to grieve for people with names we can pronounce, who went to high schools that look like our own. But if the grief of our fellow citizens for their loved ones who've fallen in the war is increasingly remote to a nation in which only a tiny fraction serve in the military, the grief of those who mourn for their dead halfway around the world is even more abstract. For them we don't have a ritual or day on the calendar. [...]

But maybe Memorial Day can be a moment to reflect and to will ourselves to grieve for Evander Earl Andrews and to consider how broadly those sacrifices emanate, how many are sacrificed against their will in places remote and unpronounceable, where a man comes home to find his eight-month-old daughter killed from above. [In the words of Walt Whitman] "The dead, the dead, the dead. Ours all."

Rather the opposite of "reprehensible and disgusting."

As Michael Tomasky wrote Monday:

I don't want to put any words in his mouth, but Hayes was, I believe, trying to talk about the way certain words are used as bludgeons against dissenters. "Freedom" being an obvious example from the Bush years. If you opposed Bush-Cheney policies, supposedly, at least in the minds of some, you were against freedom itself. That of course was contemptible and directly counter to every laudable value this country stands for.

But "freedom," in the above debate, is kind of an abstraction. With soldiers it's much more concrete because you're talking about actual human beings putting their actual lives at risk. I'm the first to say I couldn't do it (not that they'd want me anyway). But the objectionable thing here is not the idea that soldiers are heroes. The objectionable thing is that there is a kind of blackmail associated with words like these, the majority saying to the minority that if you don't agree with us about X, it's the stockade for you. It's always been an ugly impulse; see Ibsen's Enemy of the People for starters. And in this country, the home of the First Amendment, it's more than ugly. It's unpatriotic.


After that was written, after two days of that relentless right-wing bludgeoning, Chris Hayes apologized.

Personally, I would not have apologized. I think demanding an apology was the insult. But I am not in Hayes's shoes nor was I subjected to either the visible public assault or any of the attacks that surely went on behind the scenes. I don't know if his MSNBC bosses pressed him to apologize or whether in speaking to his friends and political allies, he became convinced that it was the right thing or the smart thing or the necessary thing to do.

What I do know is that his apology was as thoughtful and respectful as his entire segment on Memorial Day. And that it ought to shut up the strutting bellyachers who think they own our memories, our mourning, our perception of patriotism. But, of course, it won't.

Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2005:

I have always had a hard time trying to figure out what General Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, really thinks about anything. Reading this account of his appearances this morning on the Sunday shows doesn't help. Indeed the statements are worrisome. Does he have a clue?:

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the U.S. has done a good job of humanely treating detainees.

Did he really say that?

The human rights group Amnesty International released a report last week calling the prison camp "the gulag of our time."

Myers said that report was "absolutely irresponsible." He said the U.S. was doing its best to detain fighters who, if released, "would turn right around and try to slit our throats, slit our children's throats."

That inspires confidence in the humane treatment that will be offered General Myers. Boy, it suuuure does.

Tweet of the Day:

Romney says there's nothing improper about his Las Vegas fundraiser with Trump because prostitution is legal in Nevada.
@FrankConniff via web

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Comment Preferences

  •  More flip flops than the beach a Coney Island (37+ / 0-)

    Heard on the PBS NewsHour tonight.

    MARGARET WARNER: So he's shown an ability to evolve and to learn from past mistakes?

    MICHAEL KRANISH: Well, evolve certainly is a fair word to use about Romney.

    When he was running for the U.S. Senate in '94, he ran basically as a liberal. He as opposed to the Contract With America that Newt Gingrich was pushing. He said he was better on gay rights than Ted Kennedy. He favored abortion rights. Then, when he ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002, he called himself a moderate, and he pushed through a health care plan that a lot of Republicans have said they have problems with.

    And now, in 2012, he's called himself severely conservative. So we see many different places, many different things that he has drawn from ideologically that now shape who he is today. And perhaps if he is president, he might still pull from all of those things or depending on the Congress perhaps he would be as conservative as he has run in the primaries.

    Something is wrong with using the word "evolve" to describe going from liberal to severely conservative. It's more like "unnatural selection."
  •  370,386 registered users on dKos now. (27+ / 0-)

    Here are the 10 newest registered users on dKos. Hope to see their comments and diaries here soon!  (If they're not all spammers.)

    AmberWavesGrain (user #370,381: maybe the only non-spammer/bot here!)

    And since our society is obsessed with numbers that end in a lot of zeros as milestones, here's a special shoutout to users:
    #368,800: rossterp923
    #368,900: chimencipek78 (spammer)
    #369,000: nohlangranth1230
    #369,100: SRtasrnley460
    #369,200: hectorbuchan821 (spammer)
    #369,300: johandriscol1026
    #369,400: gahwag26
    #369,500: yusufgaarde37
    #369,600: ilyeskragelu922 (spammer)
    #369,700: elmorestephe615
    #369,800: shanepridgen922
    #369,900: ilias45segaa12
    #370,000: waumat39
    #370,100: clovismckay1230
    #370,200: diedineergaa24
    #370,300: djibrilmckee1129

    We've added a whopping 1,686 more users in just the last 24 hours.  This is a continuation of the past two weeks where we've been absolutely flooded with new users.  I'm pretty sure almost all of these new users are spammers or bots.  Notice how they all have a number at the end.  What are they planning?

    And for your Diary Rescue music pleasure, here's the viral video of the world's first LIVE lip-dub proposal!  It's to Bruno Mars's "Marry You".  :-)  Seriously, if this doesn't put a smile to your face, you may just be an angry Tea Partier who needs to get a life.

  •  How Nature Works: Gull Territoriality (14+ / 0-)

    The Cornell Ornithology Lab has a rather odd policy of requiring a paid membership to participate in one of their bird watch programs (FeederWatch) but there are open (free to join) projects such as eBird that they sponsor.

    At any rate I hope you all enjoy the bird watching.

  •  Darwin award? (20+ / 0-)

    A Pentacostal pastor in West Virginia who wanted to preserve the tradition of snake-handling has died from... a rattlesnake bite.

    Dude, you were dealing with a fucking snake in the grass, what did you expect?

    •  Some weird things going on in Ottawa (4+ / 0-)

      today (beside the normal political nonsense).

      A parcel was delivered to the headquarters of the governing party, the Conservatives.

      By Canada Post.

      The parcel contained a severed foot.

      Later on today, police found a parcel in the postal depot with a severed hand.  The same depot that the foot parcel had been processed through.


      The comments section on the Globe and Mail's version of the story is, despite the subject matter, worth reading for a glimpse at Canadians' sense of such a strange story.

      •  What is it with Canada and severed feet (0+ / 0-)

        There have been at least 11 shoe-clad feet that have washed up on BC beaches since 2008.

        I'm not particularly interested in crime things, but I find this phenomenon pretty bizarre. Why just the Vancouver area? Weird.

        •  Actually, that's been solved. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a gilas girl, bleeding blue

          Rachel Maddow covered the story back in March.

          They positively identified seven of the feet belonging to five people, they say.  The coroner's office officially ruled those feet to have separated by natural causes from people who killed themselves by flinging themselves into the Frazier River or who ended up in the Frazier River dead, but by accident.  As for why only the feet were found and not the rest of the people, you can thank the running shoe industry for that.  Apparently shoes are so well made these days that they protect your body part that's in the shoe even after death, even submerged in water, while the rest of you disappears because it is not protected.  Mystery solved.
  •  Colbert's Heroes (21+ / 0-)

    Stephen Colbert on his show frequently refers sardonically to all kinds of mundane people as "heroes", making exactly the same point that Hayes made.

    The dilution of "hero" to include anyone who joined the military for the perks instead of their deadend small town, but who got caught in Bush's endless "stop loss" forced re-enlistment, is the greatest insult. Reducing people who died saving friends or strangers in actual shooting to the same "hero" status of a forklift accident victim is indeed the insult.

    And calling anyone a "hero" who's part of a catastrophic loss in every way, built on lies, torture and murder, so it's easier to pull on the next generation, is far beyond insult to injury. It's treason. Next up on your local news channel, just like yesterday.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:40:53 PM PDT

    •  Hero is a distancing term. (10+ / 0-)

      They're better than me. They can and should serve. I'm just an ordinary person. I'm no hero. So I'm going to go back to my ordinary life where I don't have to be inconvenienced by such thoughts like "service."

      The Bush Administration told us that regular people who went to work just like they did every other day on 9/11 were "heroes." Yes, some were, like those who died on United 93  and the first responders who rushed into buildings. But many were very tragic, very esteemed, very beloved, and very desperately missed  victims.

       And all Americans had to do in response is "go shopping."

      When we demand that citizens serve they will stop other-ing those who actually do. Then we can have intelligent conversation in this country about war.

      But right now, it suits the military-industrial complex to have a volunteer Army that is cut off from the citizenry, and to have citizens who post pretty red, white and blue graphics with flags and eagles twice a year on the Facebook pages and honestly believe that they are sufficiently expressing gratitude for service with these utterly superficial self-congratulatory gestures.

      © grover

      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:38:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  More of a pedestal term, I think... (8+ / 0-)

        it forces people to elevate and in some ways idolize war fighters, and both attempts to foist some level of obligation upon those war-fighters to be worthy of such adulation.

        In a sense, "hero" as a distancing term is correct and proper. "Hero" should be the term used for someone who actually does go above and beyond by putting their own life in danger to help others. Not everyone is capable of such actions, but not everyone who's capable of such actions is presented with the opportunity either.

        However, all soldiers do put themselves in harms way because they have made themselves targets and made various lifestyle sacrifices, and even if they're in the supply line or at a home base, they may die from accidents due to the higher than civilian life risk from general military activity or unexpected attack on their positions far from the line of departure. But I agree, general military service should not equal the meaning of the term "hero", as it's not general military activity that gets one awarded with medals of bravery such as the Congressional Medal of Honor.

        The use of the word "hero", by the Conservatives tends to reflect their mindset of looking at people through the filter of lifestyle, perceiving honor-(or guilt)-by association, rather than by the merit of personal accomplishments. After all, if all soldiers are heroes and a soldier publicly announces that he is gay, then why else would republicans boo a hero?

        Sometimes I wish that Conservatives would stop with these in-group/out-group building exercises, but we all know that the more they people they cast out, the more we gain.

        I'm just waiting for someone to start calling CMH recipients "superheroes".

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:05:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course you're right. (6+ / 0-)

          The thing is that three of my close friends are active military, and I have a handful of other friends and acquaintances serving right now.  I just want to scream when I hear this "hero" nonsense, that the people serving aren't Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Superman.

          They're just our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters and husbands and wives.  And we want them home to celebrate long weekend bar-b-ques with us.

          And mostly, we don't want them forgotten 363 days of the year. Every day that we're at war, American citizens should be remembering our Verterans serving, those who have come home, and those whom we have lost.

          It's the only decent thing to do. And I'm afraid that Dems drop the ball on this too. We don't beat the war drums as loudly, so it's a little bit easier to excuse. But as a country, we don't like to think of the wars we've fought, the one we're still fighting and pay back the tremendous debt we owe.

          Yellow ribbons magnets and "support our troops" bumper stickers on cars suck. They're meaningless and make people feel like they're doing something when they're doing absolutely nothing.

          There are so many ways to help, so many great charities that need support and volunteers, so many military spouses who could use an offer of help.  I get so frustrated seeing how so much is borne by so few.

          © grover

          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:47:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

            I deleted a part where I mentioned that people should still be allowed to have a time to be emotional and that his timing might seem bad to some, although others will claim that it's a good time to talk about it. I believe people should use tact and that to everything there is a season, including a time for mourning. But I know there are people who think to be tactful is to be soft and that people need to be "tough". He might have made his point better if he had made it more obliquely, by praising service members and then referring to those who went above and beyond as heroes --that's a way he could have made his point without having to actually say it and without making a debate about it. In other words, leading the narrative instead of criticizing it.

            There is a wide gulf between Chris Hayes and Fred Phelps, but one might consider the similarities of funerals and memorials and the similarity of appearing to minimize the sacrifice of service members and proclaiming happiness that they died because "God hates [LGBT]".

            -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

            by JPax on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:19:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Good point! (4+ / 0-)

          On Monday (Memorial Day), over and over again I heard the phrases “made the ultimate sacrifice” and “a hero who died defending our freedom.” Not everyone who died in the 9/11 tragedy was a hero. Not everyone who died in Iraq or Afghanistan (or Vietnam or Korea or WWII) was a hero. Some of them were simply victims, not actual heroes.

          I think there were many people who did heroic things in those wars. But dying per se doesn’t qualify you as a hero. If you fucked up and did something stupid and then you died, you’re not a hero.

          To put it another way, how many times have you seen an obituary about someone who died “after a heroic fight against cancer”? Yes, cancer is bad, but does every single cancer victim count as a hero? The Onion once ran a headline that said “Local Man Dies After Cowardly Fight Against Cancer.”

          I think we shouldn’t be so cavalier about using the word ‘hero.’ Let’s use the word when someone does something certifiably heroic.

          But the angle said to them, "Do not be Alfred. A sailor has been born to you"

          by Dbug on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:23:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not All Soldiers Sacrifice (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          all soldiers do put themselves in harms way because they have made themselves targets and made various lifestyle sacrifices, and even if they're in the supply line or at a home base, they may die from accidents due to the higher than civilian life risk from general military activity or unexpected attack on their positions far from the line of departure.

          Not all soldiers sacrifice. There are plenty who join the military because they have no other options. These soldiers didn't sacrifice anything, because they had nothing to sacrifice - which is precisely why they joined the military. Many of these people spend their careers in a supply line, at home base, or doing some menial job away from combat with no risks greater than in a warehouse or desk job in a private company. Except those "soldiers" got jobs the government was obligated to give any healthy, obedient applicant, with housing, clothing, food and a pension. In fact there are hundreds of thousands of "soldiers" like this in our "armed" forces of millions.

          That is the point. Those people aren't heroes. They've sacrificed nothing. In fact many of those non-heroes are in that position because they screwed up their public education opportunity, even committed some crime the judge offered to expunge if they "served their country instead of serving time" instead.

          I agree with everything else you said. But our giant military is the most truly socialist institution in our country, right down to the authoritarian state control of all aspects of the person's life. Just being a prole in it doesn't have to mean sacrifice, and indeed is one of the last social safety nets available. That's not sacrifice, far from heroic. Nor should it be. In fact there is a strong role for a government job corps filled with people who can't compete in the labor market. Especially as climate change and other catastrophic effects of public failures (eg. infrastructure collapses) require large standing labor pools with training, organization and equipment to respond, and our educational and incentive systems become ever more corrupt and full of cracks to fall through, making more people society needs to put someplace constructive instead of in more strength-sapping jails.

          It just shouldn't be confused with sacrifice or heroics. Actually sacrificing for one's community is the definition of heroic. Giving up homelessness, jail or minimum wage debthood for dignity, community, work and life's necessities is not.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:34:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree, but sacrifice is still made (0+ / 0-)

            because even those service members carry targets on their back. We tend to ignore that fact because in the age of asymmetric warfare they don't seem to be targets. Of course, it's the asymmetry of our over-large military that maintains that status. We might argue over whether a super-sized military is good or bad and whether its missions are good or bad, but if we ever end up in a symmetric war again, for whatever reason, those supply depots and administrative centers are likely to be major targets in a counter-force strike and since they are under military command, there's always a possibility that they may be thrust into the breach regardless of their MOS, especially in their own defense. In addition to that, they do sacrifice other economic opportunities, often work more difficult schedules than civilians and are often held to a stronger ethic with stronger penalties than civilians. I agree that doesn't make them heroes, but it's still a sacrifice. For many of us it's the degree of sacrifice that makes one a hero.

            -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

            by JPax on Wed May 30, 2012 at 01:38:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sacrifice (0+ / 0-)

              The vast majority of people in the military are not anywhere near anyplace where they're at risk. I live and work in NYC. I have more of a target on my back than does the majority of America's military. Maybe it's because I'm a New Yorker and we don't make a big deal out of the risks we take to work someplace theoretically dangerous, but that sacrifice doesn't count.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Thu May 31, 2012 at 09:14:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  "Hero" is over-used... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DocGonzo, JeffW

        It is often used in reference to jocks.  The week, month, year, following a jock being called a "hero," he makes the first five minutes of the news hour for doing something stupid, like drunk driving, beating up and/or raping his girlfriend, or a strange woman he picked up at a bar, or his wife.  Kirby Puckett, who has a statue featuring him out front of the new baseball stadium in the Twin Cities was finally exposed for the fraud he really was when, after he quit baseball because of his eye problems, it was revealed he not only had a mistress for many years on the side and paid for her apartment, but he also beat up and threatened the lives of both is wife and his mistress (he held a pistol to the head of one or both of them, too).  Yet that butt-wipe was repeatedly called a "hero."  His wife finally divorced the cretin, but why either woman in his life endured his abuse for all those years (and his wife had her own business, her own income, so it's not like she was trapped into staying) is still beyond my ability to understand.

        Now the state will be paying for a third stadium, and the legislation included plans for something like two MORE stadiums down the line for in-state teams, and the state taxpayers will be stuck holding the bag for the cost of those, too...!

        Just a week or two before the latest stadium legislation passed, one of the football jocks was arrested for drunk driving, and that followed on the heels of yet another one who was arrested for something just a few months ago.

        They aren't qualified to be called "heroes" by anyone's stretch of the imagination.

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:31:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What's a regular enlistment for? (0+ / 0-)

      Two years?  Four years?

      That means military positions are temporary jobs, at best, since most who enlist do so in exchange for perks, like a free college education.  Most do not stay in the military as a career until they retire.

      Aside from heroic actions like saving the lives of one's co-workers, what, if anything, is so "heroic" about participating in war crimes, like torture, like invading a country that has not declared war on us, nor a country our congress met and voted to invade to go to war...?  Lt. Ehren Watada set an example for what the rest should have also done.  (He believes defensive war is okay, but not offensive war, and refused to deploy to Iraq on the grounds that he would be participating in a war crime if he did so.  He was right in his actions.  UCMJ follows the Nuremberg judgment and "I was only following orders" is not a justification for committing war crimes.  It then becomes an obligation to refuse to follow an illegal or immoral order.)

      Remember, al Quaeda is NOT a sovereign nation.  They're a little band of criminals (fewer than 100 left now) who engage in ter'rist criminal actions, but they are in a limbo of no-man's-land since no country will claim them.

      Is it worth the time and money to call out the might of the joint military forces of the US - plus mercenaries who make more money than the average soldier - to try to control a few criminals who brought the US to its knees by 19 men armed with box cutters?

      For this, hundreds of thousands have died.

      Seriously, more thought needed to be put into the idiocy that ensued after 9/11..., and Congress ought to have stopped Dumbya and Dickie from dragging into this quicksand mire of torture and war crimes, and taking away our constitutional rights was not the best thing to do....  WHY has Obama continued their policies, extended the unconstitutional legislation, and kept the Bushista people in place to continue the madness, the lies, and the war crimes...?

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:51:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  two interesting stories i read tonight (19+ / 0-)
    Tribe may take  control of 1st Tribal National Park

    Sec. Salazar is working with the tribe and congress to draft a legislative measure to make the South Unit of the Badlands national park a tribal national park. The South Unit is on Pine Ridge Reservation.  The Park Service and Tribe have "worked together" to manage the tribal lands for over 40 years after  government stole land for military uses:


    The South Unit of Badlands National Park is an oddity, having been born of an administrative decision that incorporated a large tract of Indian-owned land into a national park in a rather heavy-handed manner. A gunnery and bombing range was established on OST land in 1942 shortly after America entered World War II. When the range was declared excess and closed in the 1960s, it was returned to the Oglala Sioux in the form of a government-held trust, and with the provision that it be part of the expanded Badlands National Monument. A Memorandum of Agreement stipulated that the OST-owned land was to be managed by the National Park Service.

    ...There has never been any argument about the basic fact of Indian ownership of the land, or that Indians were badly treated when the gunnery and bombing range was established nearly 70 years ago. The military gave the Indians then in residence -- about 800 of them -- just one week to vacate. Subsequent decades of U.S. Air Force bombing and gunnery left the targeted areas of tribal land crater-pocked and littered with unexploded ordnance, some of which remains to this day.

    In all states, 40 hour, minimum wage not enough to afford 2-bedroom apartment


    The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour, but that figure varies depending on where you live. A few weeks ago, the National Low Income Housing Coalition (NLIHC) released their annual housing report documenting the disparity between what minimum wage workers can afford to pay for rent and how much rent costs. While it’s not surprising that these workers have trouble paying their rent, it is shocking to see just how big the gap is in many states. For example, in Hawaii, the most expensive state, a person needs to make $31.68 an hour to afford a two-bedroom apartment. (An apartment is considered affordable if rent and utilities cost under 30 percent of a person’s income.) For someone making minimum wage, that would mean working 175 hours — which isn’t even possible (since there are only 168 hours in a week). The disparity exists for every state and commonwealth with the shortest work week in Puerto Rico, where you would still need to work 55 hours to make the rent.

    source link

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:44:20 PM PDT

  •  Ah, mind blown!! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, palantir, Aunt Pat, msmacgyver, NonnyO

    31 Acronyms and Initials All Spelled Out

    Never even thought of some of them AS acronyms, or that they were initials for something else.  I do remember 3M from last year's pub quiz, though.  :-)

  •  Right on, MB. There goes my diary for the week (45+ / 0-)

    but it's OK. I could not agree with you more. There was nothing to apologize for.

    I love and tweet Up with Chris Hayes every weekend and I was proud that he had the guts to explore the proximate rhetoric used to start wars and keep them going while going out of his way with the whole segment to explain his point and  in doing so respect those serving.

    ‎"Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin - Thank you! I'm now going to Netroots Nation!

    by priceman on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:45:25 PM PDT

    •  Up with Chris Hayes (6+ / 0-)

      I DVR Chris' shows every weekend so I can watch them at my leisure and blast through the ads. I chose to watch his show from last Sunday on Memorial Day, since I knew what the topic was going to be about.  I agreed with what Chris was saying but being an "elder" my ears did perk up when he made the statement and I said to myself, "He'll get blow back on this."
      Given what has happened lately, I think Chris had to apologize, otherwise any number of right wing groups would have sent MSNBC petitions demanding his firing.
      His apology was gracious and heartfelt, unlike Rush-boy's recent one.

      PS-Does anyone know for sure whether the Coulter-gist is female or male?

  •  My husband, Dan's last birthday here, his 59th, (46+ / 0-)

    was 7 years ago today, as many here know, he was a Vietnam vet who survived torture.

    Mr. Hayes was thinking about and talking about what makes a hero, which I think is an extremely suitable subject for Memorial Day, and he was doing it in what I believe to be a manner respectful of the troops and their families. I consider a much graver insult the cuts that the Republicans want to make and have voted for to the care for those who have served and those who have been wounded, those are unconsionable.

                            For Dan,

    Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

    by Chacounne on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:49:36 PM PDT

    •  I certainly don't consider myself a hero for my (22+ / 0-)

      actions in Afghanistan, and I felt very awkward being greeted by all those people at the airport.

      Not to say that I am not proud of my service, I tried hard, but hero? I wish we reserved that for people who do constructive and not destructive things.

      "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

      by ranger995 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:46:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  (((((((((((((((((((((ranger))))))))))))))))))))))) (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ranger995, JeffW, msmacgyver, tb mare

        I think being willing to put your life on the line for your country is heroic. I also definitely see Mr. Hayes point that some actions are more heroic than others. I see both sides.

                                For Dan,

        Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

        by Chacounne on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:51:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That really isn't what he said. (14+ / 0-)

          He was saying that by using the word "hero" to describe those in the military, it makes more wars easier to wage. I used to have a bumper sticker during the Viet Nam war that said, "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came." I think what he was saying is by hyping up the participants, it allows for more wars. It creates an obligation for those who consider themselves patriotic. I wish I was as good a wordsmith as Chris Hayes.

          Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

          by HappyinNM on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:40:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and he also ended it with a very important phrase: (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            parse this, JeffW, HappyinNM, navajo
            maybe I'm wrong
            which indicates he was voicing his own, conflicted thoughts about the subject and that he was raising the points for discussion and thought, not as an assertion.

            Given that, I can see why he might choose to apologize, even though the inclusion of those very words signal me that no apology is necessary.

            Sometimes the things that aren't necessary can still be advisable, or even recommended.  In this case, Hayes had already signaled that he recognized this was a difficult and emotionally-fraught topic.  But still he raised it, which does show some intellectual and political courage.

            There was a subtlety to his language choice and his approach which the right wing (and Coulter in particular) have absolutely no ear for.  Their "language as bludgeon" approach to commentary can't really make sense of this kind of approach to a conflicting and conflicted topic.

            Good on Hayes for raising the subject, on Tomasky for expanding the discussion, and MB for reporting it to us.  That it ended the way it did, is probably (unfortunately) not surprising in this our still right-wing dominated public sphere, but the fact that the subject can now be raised and reasonably discussed for a short period of time with intelligence and sensitivity "only" 3 years post-Bush Cheney years, shows that the horrors they committed against public discourse can possibly be corrected.

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:30:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  HuffPo had a nice little musical (8+ / 0-)

    tribute, "The End of the 60's" and this one does it for me...

    When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:51:27 PM PDT

  •  Finally! Donald Trump's birth certificate. (8+ / 0-)

    Star Date: CHERRY OH I 8 1 2.
    Birth Place: Arcturus.
    Hospital: (Redacted).
    Birth Name: ^*>! (Loose translation: WTF!)
    Mother's Name: ~()! (OMG!)
    Father's Name: ~(-)! (OMFG!)
    Doctor's Name: <~>#! (ROFL!).
    Update: Nurse still in coma.

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:51:49 PM PDT

  •  Behold the Mighty Right Wing Wurlitzer (17+ / 0-)

    in all its shrieking obscene cacophanous glory.

    If we keep showing up
    If we keep fighting the good fight and doing what we know is right then eventually we will get there. We always have.
    Michelle Obama

    by smileycreek on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:51:56 PM PDT

  •  People often call others "heros" (17+ / 0-)

    in order to appear morally superior by association. It's like, when I was a kid, you were thought to be "cool" if you said you liked Led Zeppelin, whether or not you could play an instrument or knew anything meaningful about their music.

    And, since being cool is obviously out of the question for wingnuts, they settle for appearing to be "heroic", by some magical process of association.

    People who know what a hero is don't abuse the word or use it indescriminately. Hayes was right. Simply being in the military doesn't make you a hero any more than going to a Zeppelin concert makes you cool.

    Plus, they've made a career of manufacturing fake heros on the right, people like Reagan, Bush II, John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Norris.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:52:33 PM PDT

  •  Chris Hayes was right.. (19+ / 0-)

    Reminds me of the impassioned talk James Garner gave in the movie "The Americanization of Emily" - which is a very good movie.  - here he comfronts a woman who refuses to believe her husband died in combat and hangs on to his memory - The protagonist doesn't think much of "heroes"... it's the most intense part of a movie that is more comedy than drama, and a damn good performance...

    From IMDB quotes... ( emphasis added by me )

    "War isn't hell at all. It's man at his best; the highest morality he's capable of. It's not war that's insane, you see. It's the morality of it. It's not greed or ambition that makes war: it's goodness. Wars are always fought for the best of reasons: for liberation or manifest destiny. Always against tyranny and always in the interest of humanity. So far this war, we've managed to butcher some ten million humans in the interest of humanity. Next war it seems we'll have to destroy all of man in order to preserve his damn dignity. It's not war that's unnatural to us, it's virtue. As long as valor remains a virtue, we shall have soldiers. So, I preach cowardice. Through cowardice, we shall all be saved.

    I think I should perhaps read the book.

    "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

    by zipn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:53:08 PM PDT

    •  I found this other jem on IMDB quotes too... (9+ / 0-)

      If you've never seen it, you really should watch the movie...

      Here there is a discussion about a monument to a fallen soldier from D-Day...

      Mrs. Barham: ...They're going to put up a monument on his grave.
      Emily Barham: What on earth for? All he did was die. Dear me, we shall be celebrating cancer and automobile smash-ups next.
      Lt. Cmdr. 'Bus' Cummings: [fervently] He didn't just die, Emily. He sacrificed his life.
      Mrs. Barham: That was very pagan of him.
      Lt. Cmdr. 'Bus' Cummings: He was the first American to die on Omaha Beach.
      Emily Barham: Was there a contest?

      "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

      by zipn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:57:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So how much of a role... (7+ / 0-)

    will this 21-year-old millionaire play in November?

    Meet The 21-Year-Old Millionaire Who's Bankrolling The New Ron Paul Revolution

    He's already bought an election in Kentucky's 4th district, where the GOP primary was the real election (there's almost no way the Democrat will win in that district).

    I've been warning y'all not to ignore/dismiss these people.  They've been brainwashing young people all too easily in recent years to support not just Ron Paul's stances on war and drugs, but now all his batshit insane economic prescriptions for our country as well.

  •  I'm not sure my late father (25+ / 0-)

    (WWII, US Navy, Water Tender 2nd Class) would have considered himself a "hero".

    He went out, did his job, did it to the best of his ability, came home, married, raised four kids, and died too damn young.

    To call every single soldier a "hero" seems to me to minimize the actual heroism that occurs, not just in war, but in everyday life. And the way the Republicans treat our returning soldiers, and the way the right-wing treats the soldiers who are gay/lesbian, well, it's obvious they'd rather see them return on their shields than with them.

    Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

    by Cali Scribe on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:54:45 PM PDT

  •  Chris Hayes was right (29+ / 0-)

    The problem I have is that when we call all soldiers heroes, we treat them as a monolith, which is dehumanizing.

    They are human beings. Individuals. Each and every one of them.

    And some of them may be heroes. Many of them may be. And giving your life for your country can be a noble thing.

    But when we start conflating the deaths of our soldiers with heroism, we minimize the tragedy of those deaths, and glorify war.

    Death is not heroic. It is tragic.

    Forgive me if I'm going in circles a little bit here, but I'm upset by the glamorization of war, and the assumption that dying in war is a heroic thing. Tell that to those who get left behind at home. Tell that to the soldiers who survive with severe injuries and have their lives changed forever.

    And when you call every person who puts on a uniform a "hero" you take away from those who actually commit acts of heroism.

    Soldiers are people. Not heroes, not superheroes, not creatures set aside from humanity.

    If a person is noble, kind, or brave before they put on the uniform, that doesn't change.

    And if someone is a thief, rapist or murderer who hasn't been caught, putting on a uniform does not make them a better person. It just doesn't.

    Let's not glorify war. Let's END it. Stop finding reasons to feed the military-industrial complex, and sending our young people out to die "heroic" deaths so that someone at Halliburton can make an extra buck.

    Just STOP.

    Hayes was absolutely right. He understands nuance, which is sadly all too rare these days.

    "We have only the moral ground we actually inhabit, not the moral ground we claim." - It Really Is That Important

    by Diogenes2008 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:57:34 PM PDT

  •  I am sorry Hayes felt the need to apologize. (20+ / 0-)

    He is a bastion of integrity in a sold-out field of hair and teeth and parrots.
    I hope we don't lose the intelligent journalism he offers from a huge media platform because of the tempest that seems to have formed around his heartfelt, thoughtful commentary.

    •  Once they've whipped him (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and got him apologizing, he'll never be a bastion of anything again.  He's now broken to the yoke, if he's very very good in terms of hegemony he may get to join a Sunday gasbag roundtable some day.

      The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

      by ActivistGuy on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:20:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think his apology fell into the (7+ / 0-)

        proper talking point propaganda cesspool. It was circumspect and genuine. To my thinking, his integrity hasn't been diminished by it.
        I still wish it wasn't necessary and I hope this is the end of it.

        •  He's also said in prior interviews (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lostinamerica, 714day

          that he never felt censored by his network.

          If he doesn't see that now, he never will.

          Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

          by Simplify on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:45:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  agree 100% (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, 714day

          this was no non-apology apology.

          And as I noted above, he also ended his comments with the observation" maybe I'm wrong", which places his comments in a different context altogether.

          I don't think the apology was "necessary", those words signal to me that the apology was Hayes' choice and that it was a choice he considered carefully.

          I'll not presume to judge whether he did the "right" or "wrong" thing with it, only note that he did so, with integrity as you note and that I can respect both his choice to do so and the manner with which he did it.

          I don't believe that puts an end to the discussion, either, which is the most important thing.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:39:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-), did anyone get to see the live performance of "New Fire: To Put Things Right Again"?

    ...heh...and the Mitt Rmoney campaign's latest gaffe - kinda ominous - mispelled "America" as "Amercia"...shudder.

  •  FLOTUS Michelle Obama on The View (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10, 88kathy, msmacgyver

    It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision. ~ Helen Keller

    by Pam from Calif on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:02:07 PM PDT

  •  There was actually a conscientious objector, (3+ / 0-)

    a medic, who won a Congressional Medal of Honor.
    Wonder how they feel about that?
    How about it Right? Hero?

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:02:30 PM PDT

  •  A Hero and Non-Hero (0+ / 0-)

    If you fight in combat, you're a HERO; if you do the laundry on a battleship, you're not a hero, just a person who decided not to take out Stafford loans. DONE!

  •  The Guardian's Paul Harris sees a missed (12+ / 0-)


    Job done. Once again, one of the most valuable conversations that ordinary Americans (in and out of uniform) and their elected leaders could have had been shut down in a blaze of pointless emotion and fury. An opportunity to debate just why America has spent more than a decade fighting two lands wars and a burgeoning drone campaign had been lost.

    ❧To thine ownself be true

    by Agathena on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:08:43 PM PDT

  •  I found the clip - The Americanization of Emily (10+ / 0-)

    For a comedy.. this is a very intense clip...

    Seems to fit in the the faux Chris Hayes dust-up.

    All about Heroes and bravery. Pretty good speech on war. Funny at times, but very reflective.

    "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

    by zipn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:12:58 PM PDT

  •  One last thing on, 'heroes:' (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, JeffW, howabout, citisven, zedaker

    Ever notice that they never refer to themselves as such? It's always, 'Us.'

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:15:20 PM PDT

  •  I have a million things to say. (13+ / 0-)

    But it is late so I will just drink a beer to Chris Hayes.

  •  Quite a different topic in a different place (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    citisven, tardis10

    but not  wholly unrelated to the point of the post, Richard Seymour decodes the ideological product in What BBC Newsnight Did to Shanene Thorpe at his blog,  Lenin's Tomb.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:16:55 PM PDT

  •  I appreciated Mr. Hedges' comments (0+ / 0-)

    when I first heard them & still do. Even his unwritten words are eloquent. Love his show.

  •  FLOTUS Michelle Obama on The View (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10, 88kathy, JML9999, msmacgyver

    It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision. ~ Helen Keller

    by Pam from Calif on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:18:06 PM PDT

  •  Of course Chris Hayes was right.... (12+ / 0-)

    which is the kiss of death on TV.

    All the pundiies who were wrong about WMD and Iraq are still bloviating while those who saw and said what was really happening were banished before the first cruise missile.

    No more "single payer." No more "universal coverage." Just say, "Medicare for every American."

    by masswaster on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:18:46 PM PDT

  •  open thread (0+ / 0-)

    remember Bresinia Flores

  •  While I Doubt More of Our System and Heritage (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, erush1345, JPax

    than almost anyone here or anywhere, I think Hedges blundered.

    While he's right about societal forces' manipulative application of the hero concept, he was wrong to make it on that day and wrong in some details of the application.

    Memorial Day is the day we honor the million plus Americans who gave or had taken from them the last full measure of devotion.

    --Not the troops, not veterans, not American exceptionalism, not the Constitution or mom or apple pie. Just those who bought the farm whether they were self-sacrificingly pulling a comrade improbably from death or just dismissingly quipping "Nonsense--they can't hit an elephant at this dis--."

    Thing to remember is that while people like me put myself into harm's way for inflaming a few wrist tendons in touch-typing computer code, those who are memorialized had first put themselves into harm's way for the risk of being maimed or killed to defend our country.

    So whenever we might nitpick the qualities of some particular situation where they died, we have to remember that they signed up  --or in so many cases, consented to be drafted into-- a term of service where that ultimate price was a risk known up front.

    I have more than my share of objections to mindless hero- and troop-worship. But we have 1 day a year when we specifically honor those who lost it all ostensibly for the rest of us, and that's a time to wait till the next day or so to resume the essential fight against the manipulation of those sacrifices.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:35:03 PM PDT

    •  IF that were what happened on Memorial Day... (17+ / 0-)

      ...I would agree with you. But it isn't. IF we had a holiday devoted not only to Chris Hayes's mild remediation but to much sharper critics of the greed-and-empire-fueled slaughters that comprise the majority of the war America has been involved in, then I would agree with you. But we don't.

      Individuals who lost family members do honor their loved ones on Memorial Day. Bless them for it.

      But as for the rest it is a day of propaganda, a platform for festering sores upon the nation like Mitt Romney, who, in his speech in San Diego said:

      We have two courses we can follow: One is to follow in the pathway of Europe, to shrink our military smaller and smaller to pay for our social needs. The other is to commit to preserve America as the strongest military in the world, second to none, with no comparable power anywhere in the world.
      If Chris Hayes can be excoriated or asked to tone it down on Memorial Day, why should Romney and the rest of his ilk — not all of them Republicans by any means — not also be told to zip it on the drum beating and stick to the somber faces and the black armbands we ought all to be wearing on Memorial Day?

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:28:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because emperors don't need (0+ / 0-)

        clothes.  (??)

        While I agree with you, MB, I also see something a tad bit hopeful in this genuine apology by Hayes, rather than the standard shutting down of dissent (which it so clearly is).

        The push back was to be expected.  The Coulter hit-piece was to be expected.  Hayes had to know that going in.  And his own words reveal that: he said (as I've now noted three times in this thread)

        maybe I'm wrong

        That signals a very different kind of discourse, and a very different kind of approach to the topic, one that has been missing.  His apology, after that phrase, really is a choice, and one I believe was made with integrity.  Whether or not I agree with his choice, I can respect it.  

        And that makes all the difference in terms of follow-up conversations and discussions.  Even with apologizing, Hayes has done more than anyone else to break through the unproductive hood of Bush-Cheney speak about the topic of pseudo-patriotism that we've all been living under since 911.  It is unfortunate that the conversation can't be had as a whole in one place, but the work of the media and the right wing propaganda system makes (still) impossible.  That means it has to be chipped away at, and Hayes has done an excellent job of chipping off a first chunk.

        The rest of us have to continue that work now.  His apology does NOT preclude us doing so, because it was done with integrity.  

        "Reasonable people can disagree", but for too long our public discourse has been designed to deny this.  Hayes opened up a window for that to begin again.  

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:56:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It was hero-worshippers not heroes that he... (10+ / 0-)

      offended with his remark. For those who have not sacrificed or risked as much feel compelled to rationalize away the cognitive dissonance of their self-perceived lack of character with public displays of temporary sadness. Their anger at his words are merely a reflection upon themselves. It not only reminds them of the fact that they have not themselves lived up to their own ideals, but that their symbolic lip service is a poor and hollow gesture and the cruelest irony. Those why cry crocodile tears hate to be reminded of it.

      Those who did lose and are remembering a service member will remember their fallen friends and family members in their own way, recalling their life and who they really were, the good and the bad and the sublime, in all its human individuality, without having to paint with a broad brush of obligatory and impersonal sentimentality.

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:45:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Honor them best by not making any more. (0+ / 0-)

      I haven't seen 'The Americanization of Emily', but that clip in the threads up above sums it up pretty well.  It is exactly that treatment of the dead that gives permission to create more dead.

      We should have memorial day, and it should be a day of remembering the tragedy of those lost, not glorifying the 'nobility' of sacrifice in in war.  A national day of grief for the dead, not worship of their deaths.

  •  November is coming!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Why can't College Humor videos not be embedded onto DailyKos??  Argh.

  •  I dunno what the big deal is (19+ / 0-)

    I really don't. The whole hero thing seems like such a Disney/Hollywood fabrication, and as Chris Hayes said, it's just used as a bludgeon to send more young kids to die in useless wars. If you don't pray at the altar of military might in this country, you're basically called a traitor. Being from Germany, I just can't go there, too much pain and suffering from glorifying war. It's like Chris Hayes is the 2012 version of the Dixie Chicks. I hope he survives this BS, he is one of the best young voices on television. I love his writing for The Nation too. What's sad is that he is actually one of the most nuanced, thoughtful, and non-confrontational voices on the left.

    •  outspoken voices (7+ / 0-)

      are often silenced, for all the wrong reasons ...

      David Letterman PWNS George W Bush

      link to video

      What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself.
      -- Maslow ...... my list.

      by jamess on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:45:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The big deal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eddie C

      is that this utterance, both in content and the style with which it was delivered, strikes directly at the propaganda whirlwind that the right wing worked so many years to create into a "reality".

      All of the discussion that this has generated (on all sides of the argument) is precisely the kind of thoughtful and nuanced approach to the questions of warfare, politics, freedom, individual sacrifice, and prices to pay that the right wing has been working to redefine into a simple formula since the end of the Vietnam war (which was the last time these issues came to a public head in terms of discourse and the collective understanding of "what happened").

      Instead of seeing the apology as the end of the matter, I'm seeing it differently - an opportunity.  

      It's not about Hayes, though he handled it well, imho.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:02:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]


    Trump's Hairstylist???

  •  I think Chris Hayes was perfectly right to say (20+ / 0-)

    what he did and that he said it perfectly. He wasn't making a statement so much as asking if we could look at the meaning of hero and perhaps give it, the word if not the person, more consideration. The statement was a sort of plea, I believe.

    As for his apology, yes he apologized, but he also used the apology to expand on the idea he initially broached, that perhaps we are too quick and callous with labels when speaking of a subject that makes us all uncomfortable. Good for Chris Hayes. Good for all of us.

  •  Profiles in courage (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, msmacgyver, Eric Nelson

    Presidents are expected to confront people who are a whole lot more frightening than a flatulent orange bag of crap and bombast with a bird's nest on its head.

    The engineers at RomneyCorp apparently forgot to install a spine.

    "Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend" - Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:44:41 PM PDT

  •  I didn't catch Chris Hayes' moment of infamy, but (8+ / 0-)

    all I can say is this...the single smartest move that the Pentagon and the Powers That Be have made in the past 35 years or so is to ditch the draft and switch to an all volunteer military.  It completely changed the rules of discourse in this country, and Democrats and progressives have been groping their way through the darkness ever since.

    Every soldier is now a hero...every individual who inlists does so for completely altruistic and patriotic reasons...and every moment of their service becomes heroic and praiseworthy.  

    The volunteer military has turned the tables 180 degrees, and now you can no longer criticise the war, it seems, without impugning the honor or "sacarifice" of the soldiers who are fighting it.  That's very handy for the war mongers.

    Even progressives, today, trip over themselves in the rush to show how supportive they are of "our brave men in uniform", and you see it even here on almost a daily basis.  To do less is to open "our side" to charges of "not supporting our troops", and thereby failing the patriotism test.

    I'm pretty sure that this was discussed in the boardroom when the debate was taking place as to the pros and cons of an all volunteer military, and when some very cynical pol suggested to everyone present that "nobody will dare criticize the army if they are all patriots", they all stopped for a moment...fell silent and then high fived one another in a moment of clarity.

    I don't buy it, but I'm in the minority here.  

    Oregon:'s cold. But it's a damp cold.

    by Keith930 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:54:03 PM PDT

  •  IMO:Memorial Day is about remembering people not (6+ / 0-)

    a celebration of 'heroism'. I blame the media for cheapening it, probably for ratings.

    •  Great uncle James died at Pearl Harbor. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, JeffW

      Trapped in a sinking ship.

      He may well have been a hero, but not because he enlisted, not because he was killed in battle.

      He was a human whose life was cut too short, and his death changed his brother (my grandfather's) life forever, leaving him with a hatred for an entire people, the vast majority of whom didn't wish the slightest ill towards him or his brother, and those who did were most likely merely the victims of their own country's propaganda artists.

      Even the 'best' of wars are a stain upon mankind's potential, necessary only because of the failure of peoples to prevent power mongers from gaining leadership roles.  The best reason ever to be politically aware and active is to fight to prevent such leaders from achieving office.

    •  In a sense, not even about remembering individuals (0+ / 0-) about THE COST OF WAR, and remembering that cost.

      That cost is made up of individual lives snuffed out, and the tragedy is, at root, intimately personal and individual;  but it grew out of the enormity of losses during the s-called Civil War, where EVERY family was beaten town by the tragedies piling up on all sides, and NO-ONE was untouched by it all.

      We forget.  Not our loved ones, but all the other loved ones - the ones no longer here to maintain the way things were, and without whose lives, that way cannot survive.

      We forget, and then we hate the changes forced on us by the magnitude of our losses;  we hate those who insist on talking about those changes because they remind up of OUR loss, OUR loved one...and we forget - again - what we have ALL lost.

      Each family ends up with its own bloody shirt, and we call them heroes...and we forget that they're gone because someone sent them into battle.  Because they were soldiers following orders.  Orders that took them to their deaths.  Following those orders will not make them heroes, and death-in-uniform cannot make them heroes.  What makes heroes is what they accomplish, not whether they die as a result.

      Memorial Day is not for remembrance of our own lost loved ones who served, because we can't forget them:  it's for the remembrance of the massive death toll, and the ways in which that tragic cost mangles us as a nation and as a people, AND as individuals.

      Memorial Day should be an annual renewal of a sacred national vow:  to spend as few lives as possible, ours and theirs;  to never waste the life of a single human being without need;  and to abandon - someday! - all saber-rattling, military jingoism, manifest-destiny, and all public and private bullying of every sort.


      by chmood on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:22:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  and like clockwork... (8+ / 0-)

    ....he makes the dreaded apology, which must mean he said something wrong, which once again in this case, he didn't. How funny that we can tolerate hundreds of right-wing hate talkers blathering on and saying the most insulting and ridiculous things daily, but as soon as someone from the "left" steps outta bounds....POUNCE!!!! I understand the professional implications, but for F-Sakes, this is where we need to make a stand. Just because you don't jump up and down with a flag screaming AMERICA, FUCK YEAH, doesn't mean you aren't a "real" American or aren't patriotic. There is a whole lotta gray area from when WWII ended that can rightly be described as a clusterfuck as far as military adventures go, and that can concurrently mean that you respect and honor those that had to fight in such circumstances. All about nuance I guess, which is an uphill battle with apparently a third of the country......

    •  yup (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, 19 Americans and 70 "others"* were killed during the Invasion of Grenada. Whatever that was really about.

      I do not doubt that there was plenty of personal bravery exhibited. But, really, to what end?

      It is interesting that we fetishize our veterans for their closeness to the members of their team. We admire them for that.

      Now, closeness to your fellow human? I'm total for that.

      But I'm guessing that those words over coffee aren't all funsies like Tom Brokaw would have use believe. I've had some pretty ugly interactions with people, but none where someone's ended up dead. Would I like to have a talk with some of them some time? Sure. To help make sense of it. But I'm not going to imagine it as pleasant.

      I have a 'closeness' with those people. A shared experience. But let's not confuse terms. Closeness can come from attaining a basic understanding of each other. One method of obtaining this requires abject fear, and physical suffering. The other method comes from sharing the pleasure of another persons company.

      Yeah, we're the smart ones.

      * I assume that in addition to his Gold scams, Glenn Beck also runs a market based system to determine the value of the lives of 'teh others' into Good American Lives. Last quote I heard was 3/5ths, so I could probably use a refresh on that. Hey, I've gotta retire.

  •  Chris Hayes' outrageous remarks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Stankus

    If you can remember "baby killers", hold up your hand.

    Then duck and cover.

  •  Blast from the past (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I remember seeing that thinking dramatized propaganda at its best.

    "slit our children's throats"

    He made it sound like they were around every corner.

  •  something I need to get off my chest (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, Tamar, JeffW

    I am so upset that even one person has been hit with a club, has been pepper sprayed or tear gassed, has been kicked, dragged in the street

    to protect against modest financial reform and a few percentage point rise in taxes.

    what colossal assholes

  •  MOH recipient Paul "Buddy" Bucha (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    here4tehbeer, home solar, zedaker, JeffW

    Read the whole thing, its well worth it.
    Paul Bucha: Challenging the Hand that Destiny Dealt

    Thank you very much. I accept your applause on behalf of my men. The medal I wear, I wear for them and for those of you who did not receive proper recognition. It is not mine.

    I have a lot of things on my mind because I'm not exactly a happy camper. I don't believe that if you question a war or you question the government's policies on things that you care deeply about that you should be accused of being unpatriotic. Because of what I'm going to say today, I think it's inappropriate that I wear this.

    [At this point, Bucha takes off his Medal of Honor.]

    If I asked the Medal of Honor recipients, 136 of them, to come up front and stand before you, you'd see some are tall, some are short. Some are black, some are white, some are yellow, and most of us are a bit fat. Almost all of us are old, and right now there isn't a woman among us.  But, other than that, you'd say, "Damn, they look like us." And we are.

    There is no difference whatsoever except that mysterious time where the confluence of events and circumstances came together, and a person was asked to challenge the hand that destiny had dealt. Then someone gives them a medal. Why? Because at that time they reached down and said, "No,"and reached for the potential that exists in every single person.


    Throughout history we find people like you and like me in circumstances where they had to challenge the hand that destiny had dealt. My personal hero is a little lady. She gets up in the morning, puts on her dress and her pearl white gloves, goes to a bus stop, gets on a bus, and sits in the seventh row. Some big guys get on the bus and say, "Go to the back." That lady reached down inside of herself, overcame all the fear in the world, and just said, "No." Rosa Parks changed this world, and nobody gave her a medal.

    George Tierney of Greenville South Carolina

    by BOHICA on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:23:35 PM PDT

  •  Very interesting analysis by (0+ / 0-)

    John Harwood on tonight's Rachel (12:50).

    When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:27:36 PM PDT

    •  Unbelievable (0+ / 0-)

      Trump is a clown, so it's okay for Romney to associate with him, because people wont blame Romney.

      That's basically what Harwood said. Where is this liberal media?

    •  lol (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Rachel even seemed a little surprised. Harwood basically said it was about money, and almost seemed impressed with what Romney was doing.

      Again, just unbelievable to me the logic: Trump is not serious, he's a clown, so it's okay for someone wants to be the next President of the United States to have him as a campaign surrogate.

      •  He seems to forget ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Odysseus, msmacgyver

        ... that not that long ago, Trump was actually LEADING in the polls as a possible GOP presidential candidate, not just fundraiser or colorful media personality.

         Blast from the past -- a little more than a year ago:

        So how does he explain that only a year ago, this "clown" that nobody takes seriously, after all, was leading the GOP field (including Romney, Gingrich, Paul, Palin, Pawlenty, etc.) by 9 points -- and largely on the strength of his relentless single-minded focus on birtherism? He had no other issues. And his arguments were just as stupid and silly and devoid of even common sense, let alone factual truth, then as they are now, yet they apparently attracted enough believers.

        If Romney thought the birther sentiment was THAT fringey in his party, he'd cut Donald loose in a New York minute. It's not like there's a shortage of Republican gazillionaires out there who could  match Trump million for million. Obviously, he knows it's a minority, for sure, but a sizable or at least passionate one, that he ignores or denounces at his peril.

        •  I agree that it is a political decision (0+ / 0-)

          by Romney to keep the Birthers in play.

          He's doing a fairly good job of just ignoring the situation, which is always his best strategy.

          When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

          by msmacgyver on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:14:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Harwood made it too personal, IMO, by (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        saying (paraphrased), "Romney isn't going to back down or apologize because Rachel says he should..."

        Both Trump and Romney play by their own rules and neither would accept that they could be wrong.  

        There is still a significant Birther contingent and Trump is working that crowd either because he wants the attention or because Romney wants him to.

        When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

        by msmacgyver on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:12:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Big Media's goal: keep the people from discussing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Stankus, Eric Nelson, JeffW

    anything having to do with their own governance, or as close to that as possible.

    Every now and then someone in the Public Eye forgets that priority, failed to internalize it properly, and then we have an "I take umbrage" fest from their better trained peers. As long as the net effect is to remove attention away from the truth-ward public statement, then the System is working.

    The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

    by Jim P on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:29:18 PM PDT

  •  Absolute fantastic tweet.................... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie, a gilas girl

    Mitt Romney was CEO of Bain until Aug 2001. Proof of Bain & Romney Fraud

    by laserhaas on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:41:23 PM PDT

  •  The really despicable thing (7+ / 0-)

    is that those who use the term "heroes" most frequently are the ones who actually care about our service personnel the least.  And it works as a kind of blanket inoculation against both the horrors of war and the contemplation of the effects of U.S. policies.  The politician can vote against veteran's benefits and healthcare, but it's okay, because he called them "heroes."  What more could they want?  The chickenhawk pundit can advocate for more war, but it's okay, because she called them "heroes."  What more could they want?  And too many of our fellow American go about their daily lives with nary a thought about the deaths that are routinely occurring half way round the world, but it's okay, because they called them "heroes."  What more could they want?
        I find it telling how much more often all these groups use the plural "heroes" compared to the singular.  Those who do would have you believe that this is due to how highly they supposedly honor everyone's service, but to me, in addition to the actual devaluation of the word, this pluralization smacks of the same depersonalization that we use towards the "enemy."  "Yeah!  You're heroes, now we can forget about you."  Confronted by an individual face, name, or story, however, and it's a different matter.  Then the comfort level drops palpably.  Thus the accusations of being unpatriotic flung at Nightline by conservatives for the simple act of listing the names of all service personnel killed during the Iraq War up to that point, and at PBS' NewsHour for showing a name and photo of each of our military dead at the end of broadcasts.  After all, here at home, our duty is not to think on such things.  Our duty is to go shopping.

  •  The GOP weaponizes language.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tamar, JeffW

    ..but the separation of the word 'hero' from the attachments that the chicken hawk right wing has made fast is almost impossible with the many many years and huge efforts by the pro-war that's gone into it.

    Chris Hayes was (with a full and talkative panel) trying to make that break, to take that war cudgel apart, saving the best and truest part of heroism from the handle that is the GOP.

    I haven't seen or heard what that shreiking coulter thing has said, and don't need to. She nailed that handle right back on to it and swung it for sure.

  •  Randi (0+ / 0-)

    Rhodes pointed out that when those on the right heard "rhetorically proximate," their heads exploded.

    (She also did say that all those who wear the uniform and put themselves in harms way are heroes.)

    Just Win, Baby. -- Al Rodgers, Feb. 24, 2012

    by OLinda on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:51:52 PM PDT

  •  She says it best IMHO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson

    Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

    by HappyinNM on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:52:37 PM PDT

  •  Wow, where was I? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tamar, KnotIookin, JeffW

    Didn't hear a peep about this latest nontroversy. Thank the Gods for small favors.

  •  Go Chris Hayes!!! (7+ / 0-)

    This was inevitably going to happen at some point. He loves to broach the unbroachable, and there are reasons those things don't get broached :-)

    Here's to a trial by fire *clink*

    Formerly known as Jyrinx.

    “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

    by Code Monkey on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:04:16 PM PDT

  •  Lane Lewis is re-elected (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson

    Tuesday May 29 was the final day of voting in the Democratic and Republican primaries in Texas. Lane Lewis was re-elected, with 55 %, Chair of the Harris County Democratic Party (Houston).
    Lane is a wonderful guy to work with. I met him about 1990. In 1997 he was president of the Houston GLBT Political Caucus. He has served as precinct chair in the Oak Forest area.
    There are those who saw this race as an opportunity to drive a wedge between the glbt and black communities. His opponent also accepted substantial money from a Republican activist. Many of us active Democrats doubted whether she wanted to keep on having a functional Democratic Party.
    Voter turnout was similar to that in most non-presidential years. Much less than in 2008.

    Censorship is rogue government.

    by scott5js on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:13:30 PM PDT

  •  Wow... well put. (0+ / 0-)

    All that comes to mind at the moment is "Wow."

    This man put words to what it means to be called "Memorial Day". To remember those that have fallen. Not just here, but everywhere. To step back and reflect on the battles and  wars to see what the real cost has been for all. And not just our own men and women, but those we have fought against.

    What he said was accurate and that is the damning part of it for the right. This is "their" day to strut around and do speeches about "heroes" and "freedom". It's not something one of us liberals or progressives can publicly talk about. Shame on us.

    But the reality is that we should be doing much more of the talking about these wars and the price it has cost us in blood and treasure. We need to risk being chastised by those on the right. We need to make it clear that we respect those that have served in more than just Memorial Day speeches, and BBQ fundraisers. We need to reflect on the cost these wars have brought to all our men and women. To spend their sacrifice wisely and be conscious of them as human beings not just tools to be used and thrown away.

    We made a solemn promise to them to protect them as much as they protect us. To respect them like we would our own children. Keep them safe even in times of extreme danger to us all. For they are us and we are them. When we call upon them to do something we need to be sure it's for the right reasons and not due to petty politics or greed. That is the crux I fear the right has done. They have exploited our armed forces for their own personal gains and that is truly shameful.

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:26:05 PM PDT

  •  The purpose of any military is to kill people. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    helfenburg, NonnyO

    Masses of people. Swiftly, efficiently, mercilessly.

    Is that something that deserves joyous cheering?

    Don't let millionaires steal Social Security.
    I said, "Don't let millionaires steal Social Security!"

    by Leo in NJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:43:33 PM PDT

  •  Apropos of nothing (0+ / 0-)

    Except that a long series of YouTube links beginning with Doc Watson (who died on Tuesday) eventually led me to this, one of my favorite music videos:

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:10:14 AM PDT

  •  The first time the FBI noticed me... (0+ / 0-)

    Well, maybe they didn't but it would have been int he 1960s and we were saying the same thing--and our words twisted in the same way. No one (NO ONE) in my community questioned the sincerity of returning Viet Nam vets. What was often questioned was the way they were used to justify the greed and ambition of old men who used war to further their own aims. I have often thought that only those who served should be able to craft the memorials and the speeches, because they understand the difference between serving the nation and serving the military-industrial complex.

    This year they put my dad (WWII) on a float. His community is just recently realizing what it took for all those kids to leave their families and go to fox holes and jungles half way around the world. In that war we were not the aggressors (although some industrialists may have abetted some). We stood together and kept the world free.

    I'm not sure what we accomplished in Viet Nam. But I'm sure the kids I graduated with had a tough decision--to serve country by obeying very rich and powerful folks who would benefit from the war, or to question it. And in my mind, both decisions were heroic.

  •  Chris Hayes is the latest threat.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, parse this, NonnyO, JeffW

    Chris Hayes is the latest threat to the right wing war machine. He was made to apologize by his bosses. I choose to support our troops by advocating the end to these senseless wars for profit. the best way to protect our troops is to keep them out of harms way and you can accomplish that by never putting them into harms way in the first place.  

    MSNBC did the same thing to Cenk Yugar and Keith Olberman. Chris Hayes represents a new way of thinking that offers up the idea that more war is not good...

    Personally, I am disappointed that he had to apologize.

  •  Hero is a title defined by a persons actions, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, helfenburg, JeffW

    not be a persons profession.  Heroes are people who stand up against the innocent.  Heroes are people who stand up against injustice.  Heroes are people who fight for what's right, not for what someone tells them is right.

    Heroism is the exception, not the norm.

  •  It was ti thoughtful, and the words (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    had too many syllables.    The righties couldn't comprehend.    When I hear all the praising of "people in union", and it doesn't include nurses, doctors, firemen - I think they glorify war, which was Hayes meant.  

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Wed May 30, 2012 at 02:31:27 AM PDT

  •  The apology mystery. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lostinamerica, JeffW

    The sponsors (many of whom profit hugely from war-profiteering) made him do it. They (the sponsors) can’t have some dillschmack on Tee-Vee telling us how twisted it is to worship the participants of our fine (and unjustified) wars.
    Say the wrong thing on Tee-Vee and you end up like Olbermann, Cenk etc. Liberals don’t have free speech in the MSM.

  •  Saw a diary that referenced this incident (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    though not in as great detail as you have.  I missed that particular show, and all of the 'firestorm' about it, but I have to agree with you completely.  Hayes said nothing reprehensible, said nothing that required apology.  Indeed, he is 'apologizing' for the fact that the rightwing and authoritarian segments of his audience lack the ability to comprehend what he actually said, and strained it through their own worldview filters into something that it was not.

    I would even go further than Hayes, and closer to what they no doubt envisioned, and say that the word 'hero' has become severely overused, and that something like dying in a forklift accident, even in a war zone, does not automatically make one a 'hero'.  It makes one the victim of tragedy, just as being killed in a car accident, or hit by a bus.  Or heck, shot in a war zone.

    'Heroes' used to be people who actually performed feats of 'heroism', above and beyond the call of duty.  Silver and bronze stars, medals of honor...  In service of propaganda, the Right has diluted the term to the point where it almost becomes one of those 'everyone is a winner!' contests.   Of course, they probably are willing to strip that term from any soldier who happens to be gay, or comes back and protests stop-loss policies, or dares to point out that the Iraq war was a bad idea in the first place.

  •  Social convention is irrational. (0+ / 0-)

    Chris probably should have kept it to himself, even if he was right.

    "The disturbing footage depicts piglets being drop kicked and swung by their hind legs. Sows are seen being kicked and shoved as they resist leaving their piglets."

    by Bush Bites on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:50:28 AM PDT

  •  bravery (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I watched Chris Hayes that morning and he confirmed that
    he was among the best writers and thinkers on TV.
    Our warriors should be honored but the whole,
    have a cookout damn it what are you talking about
    shut up and eat a hamburger ok? bull shit is kinda like a fear of thinking about what the soldiers do, how they feel, and
    what the bombs do, they kill, we kill, and it's not pretty at all.
         When they come home and they're suicidal, slap a hero label on them... it seems more  of a way to shut them up then listen to they're pain. Wave a flag damn it!!
    Don't be selfish....   As one of the most honest and refreshing, smart guys out there, he might give msnbc heart burn and if so, I hope he ends up where the truthful misfits go, current. Hopefully he can continue to tie Rachel for being the best of msnbc for a while longer.

  •  I agree with Hayes. (0+ / 0-)

    I see the 101st Fighting Keyboardists are deployed at long last.

    Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

    by dadadata on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:16:32 AM PDT

  •  Is Republican Political Correctness better? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades

    Because Republicans sure throw quite a fit anytime PC gets in the way...albeit only when it's not conservative!

    Given that they're the FIRST people to deny benefits or programs for veterans, theirs is FAKE patriotism, FAKE outrage, nothing but a bs effort to score political points.

    Is EVERY NFL player a star or a role model?  

    Is ever person serving a hero? The answer to this is PERSONAL. Hayes has his opinion, and whether one agrees with him or not, the way he addressed it was respectful to the military, not a cheap attack...especially not anywhere close to those he's been getting from conservative wingnuts.

  •  ann coulter (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    only has 140,000 followers?  That is so funny.  I just found out Steve Martin has nearly 3,000,000.

  •  As I recall (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    parse this, JeffW

    this kind of generalized used of "hero" came about first when talking about first responders at 911.

    Even at the time I found it disturbing because it sought to detach the firefighters and other first responders from their jobs as public servants/employees. There was no celebration of the public unions/public employees and how we were lucky to have them and to have a system that meets and serves our needs. No, they got elevated into the transcendent category of "hero", which doesn't require a union, or public support, or a pension plan (h/t the Incredibles).

    In a sense, it was the groundwork for the later attacks of the Scot Walkers and the ALECs on public employee unions.

    That this usage is ideological and propgandistic, there's no denying.  However, breaking through the now well-established shield that this propagandistic usage has provided, is a longer-term project.  Starting it on Memorial Day and then apologizing for doing so with integrity is a kind of ingenious gift of fate, if we use it as such.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:12:30 AM PDT

  •  Thanks MB for voicing what many of us are thinking (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triv33, Ginger1, gooderservice, ratmach

    I particularly echo your wish that Hayes had not succumbed to pressure and apologized.

    One caveat though: The relentless bludgeoning was hardly restricted to the right. If only. There was no shortage of bludgeoning right here on DKos... indeed so much that the anti-Hayes position might fairly be described as the dominant one on this site too.

    The voices of Kossacks who felt that Hayes' remarks were both on-target and apropos to Memorial Day were largely drowned out.

    Thanks again for this effort to right the balance a bit.

    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

    by PhilJD on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:26:49 AM PDT

  •  Worth a read (0+ / 0-)

    Even in Coal Country, the Fight for an Industry

    LOUISA, Ky. — For generations, coal has been king in this Appalachian town. It provided heat, light and jobs for the hundreds of people who worked in the nearby coal mines and the smoke-coughing Big Sandy power plant that burned their black bounty.
    So when the operator of the Big Sandy plant announced last year that it would be switching from coal to cleaner, cheaper natural gas, people here took it as the worst betrayal imaginable.

    “Have you lost your mind?” State Representative Rocky Adkins, a Democrat and one of Kentucky’s most powerful politicians, thundered at Michael G. Morris, the chairman of the plant’s operator, American Electric Power, during an encounter last summer. “You cannot wave the white flag and let the environmentalists and regulators declare victory here in the heart of coal country.”
    The anger toward Washington is palpable in this impoverished corner of Eastern Kentucky, where miners display bumper stickers or license plates on their pickup trucks with slogans like “Coal Keeps the Lights On” or “If Obama Is the Answer, How Stupid Was the Question?”

    It is hard to find anyone here who does not feel affected by the fate of Big Sandy. Just as the smokestack at the plant towers over the countryside, Big Sandy dominates much of life here.

    Danny Sartin, 61, a barrel-chested heavy equipment operator at the plant, said his father, grandfathers and uncles all worked in local mines that feed Big Sandy. “Coal and the coal mining industry, it’s all we have ever known,” Mr. Sartin said.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    There are no Christians in foxholes.

    by Odysseus on Wed May 30, 2012 at 06:23:31 AM PDT

  •  the irony... (0+ / 0-)

    The irony is that George W. Bush, who used "hero" as a synonym for "corpse," considers himself to be a war "hero" for having had the "courage," "resolve" and "leadership" to launch an immoral, inane, unnecessary, costly "war [of choice] on terror" and for being able to announce "mission accomplished" despite all evidence to the contrary.  

    And the Republican screechers, at least some of whom must have recognized that Mr. Bush was bogus in every way, all had the gall to assert that anyone who didn't support their foolishness was an unpatriotic traitor, never mind the fact that it was Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush who were, in fact, traitors.    

  •  I watched the entire show (0+ / 0-)

    And in no way can anyone honestly say Hayes was insulting or demeaning our troops.

    In fact, I would bet most of them feel uncomfortable with the word hero.

    By the way, Chris said on Twitter that his apology was his ow decision, not that of his bosses.

    Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. - Dalai Lama

    by kimoconnor on Wed May 30, 2012 at 08:14:41 AM PDT

  •  TOD correction (or addendum) (0+ / 0-)

    "Romney says there's nothing improper about his Las Vegas fundraiser with Trump because prostitution is legal in Nevada."
    But not in Washoe (Reno) and Clark (Las Vegas) counties. I'm pretty sure the Trump-fest is in Las Vegas so whoring yourself out for $$ is still illegal, but IOKIYAR

    Even though I am disappointed at some of his actions, I am thankful every day that Barack Obama is President and not George Bush and certainly not John McCain.

    by gritsngumbo on Wed May 30, 2012 at 08:47:00 AM PDT

  •  I always watch "Up with Chris Hayes" online. (0+ / 0-)

    I don't have cable so I missed the hullabaloo after his Sunday show. I miss a lot of the ugly stuff, but I don't miss it. I completely agree with you re: his examination of the word "hero". I hope the wing nut outrage won't discourage Mr. Hayes from delivering the same thoughtful, intelligent and honest programs he has produced thus far. I also hope he spends less than he earns so he won't be deterred from speaking honestly by fear of unemployment.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam> "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." Edna St.V. Millay

    by slouching on Wed May 30, 2012 at 08:58:18 AM PDT

  •  In my ten years in the service, (0+ / 0-)

    I met maybe a handful of people whose behaviors (in extreme circumstances) were what I would call 'heroic'.

    And at least three times that whose actions (in any circumstances) I would call foolish, stupid, just plain boneheaded, or outright dangerous.

    There are those, many on the other side of this issue, who call anyone in uniform a hero.  That's bull.  I was certainly not a hero.  The bonehead who crashed the aircraft carrier I was on into a tanker was not a hero - he was a dolt.  The guy who brought crabs into the berthing compartment was not a hero - he was a nitwit.  I could go on for days with this kind of negative example.  Most of us were just guys trying to do our jobs and do them well.

    The guy who saved a $15 million aircraft from being lost over the side at risk of his own life - he was a hero.  The guy who jumped out of a liberty boat in 12 foot waves to pull a guy back in who had fallen over the side - he was a hero.

    But heroes are rare, and diluting the label insults them and their actions.

    I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

    by trumpeter on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:28:41 AM PDT

  •  Hayes wasn't insulting - but he WAS wrong (0+ / 0-)

    To say "I feel uncomfortable about the word 'hero' because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war" is to cede one more word or symbol to the Right, like "patriotism" or the flag.  In the battle of ideas, I don't think it is wise to surrender to our opponents anything they decide to claim for themselves.!/Impolitics

    by Impolitics on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:57:46 AM PDT

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