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Today on the Daily Beast, Andrew Sullivan wrote an article on why the recall was a mistake.  And he's hardly alone.  There's others in the media, and here, who are now lecturing Wisconsin democrats and progressives as to the terrible blunder they've made. They are entitled to their opinions, but I will do my best to represent the other side of the debate.  

Follow me below the fold to find out why it is gob smacking for those who believed in the recall fight to find themselves defending themselves---to other Democrats!

Monday morning quarterbacks are always irritating.  That's why the cliche about them exists.  The rear view mirror is something one always takes in sitting on their duff.  It has its benefits, as there is rarely a bold political action taken, that should not be studied and learned from.

I wish to make it quite clear that I believe there is much to be learned yet about what went on in Wisconsin in this last year.  It was huge, not just in that state, but nationally. And like all bell weather events, it takes time, perspective and context to come up with  the truths.  Most of all it takes time.  2 days isn't enough for anyone to get on a soap box and declare the recall a mistake, let alone Democrats.

I am struck by the fact that "the recall was a mistake" meme, seems to clash pretty noisily with the Democratic meme that Democrats don't know how to fight, don't know how to message, and back down too easily.  And that meme is gigantic in this community and elsewhere.

So along comes the Wisconsin Recall, wherein democrats and progressives put the words "wishy washy" on the back burner.  They don't just jump in the ring to fight, they CREATE THE RING.  

Recalls may be legal in Wisconsin, but they're not easy to pull off.  To give too many words to the amount of sweat it took to pull this off would be, hopefully, redundant here. Yes. Wisconsin Democrats and progressives blew the lid right off the idea that Democrats don't know how to fight.

I simply will not list the positives of the recall, again. I've done that enough, and frankly I'm damn tired of trying to justify, to other Democrats, the benefits of the fight, despite the loss.

But I will say this.  If we have gotten to the point where we dare not risk the battle if we think we might lose, we're in worse shape than we ever dreamed.  I find it amusing to contemplate the response to Obama here, if he'd actually taken on every fight on the personal agenda list of every Kossack, and lost.  God help him.

This is an excellent example of how Democrats can't get the message straight.  And I'll tell you one thing, the message that "the recall was a mistake!" because we lost, is NOT
the right message.  And this kind of language is ABSOLUTELY the result of the loss, not the merits of the fight. If Wisconsin had succeeded in recalling Walker, we'd still be sweeping up the confetti here, and elsewhere.

One of the things we find in the aftermath of this election, is that 60% of Wisconsinites did not believe in a recall.  This from a Washington Post poll, and exit polls, conducted on the day of the recall.  Although there was anecdotal evidence of these feeling, they were NOT the meme of the day during the battle.  Far from it.  Again, that rear view mirror thing.

Above all, what is the proper response to governors like Walker?  Some say it's to sit tight, wait for 4 years, and THEN lumber out of your recliner to vote.  This view supports the idea that the only thing we citizens can do, the only way we can fight, is at the polls.
Well, considering what's happening with voter registration lately, I'd suggest we not bet on that.  

Wisconsin's constitution makes it entirely LEGAL to recall.  There was a reason for this, and it ain't fear of a serial murdering governor.  The idea that the only reason to recall is
"misconduct" is as un-useful as it is impossible to agree on what "misconduct" means.

To those who are waiting for the revolution to save you from the incredible gallop of the oligarchy towards destroying our democracy, thank Wisconsin for teaching you a few things.  If folks don't believe in legal recall, better put your dreams of larger rising ups on the back burner.  If folks are willing---democratic folks---to make the problem those who got out there and took a bold swing and a miss, those who fought back beyond voting day, then we are in very deep weeds.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Law Enforcement is For Misbehavior. A Recall (34+ / 0-)

    is for egregious leadership. Maybe reflection will suggest that the recallers failed to make the sale on the reason for the recall of the governor, but as you say it's an entirely legitimate purpose. As is voting in the opposition's primary if there are open primaries.

    And hey the recall won a major goal. The people of Wisconsin took their senate back and badly hobbled the tea party wrecking crew. That's giving the Village and national Democrats the vapors because it demonstrates successful populism.

    And they're going to keep on being given the vapors from now on. The people are pissed and millions of them feel they haven't had a party for long enough that they're going to try to change that situation.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:38:26 PM PDT

  •  If nothing else, the recall stopped the momentum (42+ / 0-)

    of the Scott Walker attack on working people, and in the end the process led to the democrats regaining control of the Wisconsin State Senate, and, in effect, ended the Walker attacks.

    The definition of INSANITY: Voting Republican over and over and over and expecting the economy to get better.

    by pollbuster on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:40:39 PM PDT

  •  Stella, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sviscusi, Ian S, Argyrios, cap76

    When 60% of Wisconsin voters thought a recall shouldn't happen without a clear case of official misconduct and 10% thought one should happen never it does raise the question was it a good idea.

    Next how would you feel, if it was permitted, the Republicans mounted a recall just because they didn't like Obama's agenda. You would be pissed and work hard to defeat it. This is what happened in Wisconsin.

    Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

    by jsfox on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:41:37 PM PDT

    •  And John Doe wasn't clear enough (14+ / 0-)

      I guess they were waiting for a written confession.

      The definition of INSANITY: Voting Republican over and over and over and expecting the economy to get better.

      by pollbuster on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:47:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  John Doe has not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geekesque

        Brought a Walker conviction ... Yet.

        Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

        by jsfox on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:10:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The people of WI had $30M worth of ads (10+ / 0-)

        telling them that the recall was a bad idea, a waste of money, etc.

        Ok, maybe not the entire $30M went for that... but plenty of right-wing fear jockies were serving up that meme for free.

        •  Are people really that stupid that they believe (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy

          political ads?  That would be like having the phone on hand and ordering up everything you see on an infomercial.  I cant really believe the ads mattered that much

          •  Maybe they bought their last Scott WOW. (0+ / 0-)

            . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

            by 88kathy on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:57:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  ??? To the low-info and/or disengaged and/or too (7+ / 0-)

            busy WI voter?  We were swamped with well-crafted professional ads spinning everything in Walker's favor: TV, radio, internet plus all the damn yards signs they were not only giving away for free, but paying $135 to the folks who would let them install the 4x6 foot yard signs facing the road.

            Of course WE weren't going to fall for his lies b/c we knew they were lies.  And the majority of WI are "traditional" conservatives and moderates who have, for lack of a better term, a simple trust.  If the MJS endorses him, he must be a good fella.  If he releases new numbers showing WI gained jobs, well alright.  They say Barrett will take away our hunting rifles and bring Milwaukee's problems to the whole state?  Well I'm going to stick with the Governor...

            To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

            by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:05:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Advertising is the answer for campaigns. if your (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StellaRay, blueoasis

            campaign can't afford advertising you don't get your message out.  you can lie all you want in an ad......look at what they the oil companies say..... you want fracking don't you - it is so safe .... Every day we are bombarded with ads and they work.

            With few exceptions - those who can get their message out usually win.

            It is better to fire most of your campaign staff and just pay for advertising.  Advertising is the bomb!

            •  Yes Marty. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens, marty marty, blueoasis

              Advertising is the bomb.  If it wasn't it wouldn't be a multi billion dollar industry---that for the better part, survived the recession much better than other industries---maybe because it can't be outsourced.  (I add this as an interesting but true side note. No one in India can come up with the ideas that successfully promote products in our culture, or place the media in the correct way, or manage American clients, or rangle with our social media.  You have to BE HERE, and understand HERE to do that.)

              It also freaking AMAZES me when Americans fail to attribute the power of political advertising, when they have succumbed to all manner of advertising all their lives.

              I've got a lot of favorite quotes on this, but I'll just leave you with this one:

              "Advertising is of the very essence of democracy. An election goes on every minute of the business day across the counters of hundreds of thousands of stores and shops where the customers state their preferences and determine which manufacturer and which product shall be the leader today, and which shall lead tomorrow."

    •  That was a true snapshot of the voting electorate (26+ / 0-)

      but, I ask myself this:

      Was that a true reflection of the likely voters before Walker and his moneyed media campaign went on their charmless offensive denigrating the recall process itself?

      I ask for this simple reason. If we are to take thousands of workers and volunteers to task for the mistake of engaging in the recall, are we not learning the wrong lesson?

      Money (sadly) moves the needle on the opinion meter - the outsize expenditures Walker and his cronies could bring to bear assuredly drowned out any efforts to cast the intention of the recall in the proper light.

      Assume for the sake of argument that there were three errors
      - recalling versus electoral ouster over time,
      - timing the recall for the summer when college students were a diminished part of the electorate and, last  
      - Playing Nelson to the money implications of Citizens United, assuming that a ground effort, no matter how large, would not be dwarfed by an 8:1 spending ratio.

      Which of those strikes you as the most acute error? Money I say, for it was used to reshape the ethos of that election - before Barrett had even had a chance to go toe to toe with Walker.

      Nota Bene - I don't hold that there were three errors, or one. These represent some of the instant analysis of why WI didn't boot Walker. In sum, I look at the 60% "no recall never, unless he has a knife in his hand" figure as a symptom, not as the true cause of this defeat.

      •  Fantastic comment! (16+ / 0-)

        I don't even know where to begin to tell you how much I agree with your every word.

        So I'll just pick one aspect of what you speak of.  MONEY.  And imo, your correct analysis that the 8:1 ratio of money spent was pretty much a doomsday scenario, AND the almost equivalent time ratio deserves as much attention.

        Walker was able to raise funds and campaign for MONTHS before the Democrats even had a candidate.

        Yes, there is the occasional exception to the rule, the Meg Whitney or the Carly Fiorina. But if you're banking on these exceptions to the power of money, you're making a bet the house would love to take advantage of.

        If huge sums of money don't drive everything from sales to political opinion, then someone needs to tell McDonalds and Coke, just to name two to make the point, that they're wasting a lot of bucks.  

        •  8:1? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StellaRay, litoralis, JayRaye

          http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

          ‘A New Era Of Madness’: Total Spending On Wisconsin Recalls Could Top $125 Million

          Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

          by Just Bob on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:10:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, if we're going to insist that money always (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StellaRay, blueoasis

            wins, does that mean we just throw up our hands and give up?  Because it seems to me they will always have more money, and I don't think we can just give up because of it.

            •  Not what I suggest at all. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              I'm the person who thinks Wisconsin recallers won A LOT, despite their loss and with parking meter change as is relative to what the GOP had.

              The whole point of my diary was that Wisconsin Democrats and progressives did not bow to Walker's obvious money advantage, and put themselves out there with incredible effort and belief till the fat lady sang.

              Still, to ignore the effect of Citizens United on our Democracy does no good either. To suggest that Wisconsin democrats' efforts to recall this dangerous governor needed to overcome this to be successful, is what is wrong, and what I wrote this diary about.

          •  There are several sets of figures being (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Just Bob

            thrown around. I've seen 7,8 and 9:1 on the candidates campaign spending.

            The $125 million includes all races in all the 2011 and 2012 recall elections.

            The other interesting one is the PAC money. GOP sources outspent the Unions and progressive causes $18 million to $15.5 million. 14% more. Significant. Not as big as 8 x more. The combination makes the pro Walker to pro Barrett expense ratio 11:1.

            Maybe we need to look at some research studies on whether repeating a message enough times reduces the ability to consider a conflicting message.

            Can 'free' speech become something beyond what could be considered normal human communication?

            "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

            by Ginny in CO on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 10:10:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Bingo (15+ / 0-)

        That opinion was not there last year. Part of it is manufactured via mass ads ... another explanation is voter rationalization. Oh, Walker is bad but so are recalls! That's the same try-to-have-it-both-ways stuff my local paper tried to do with its endorsement.

      •  You provide detail to my (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ItsSimpleSimon

        question and conjecture above.

      •  Walker, et. al. got to set the date of the recall. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wasatch, blueoasis, ItsSimpleSimon
      •  This is where the ads had real effect (0+ / 0-)

          Well stated. The reason you had a sizable amount of the electorate voting for Walker because "the recall was unnecessary" did so because that's what was being drummed into their heads by Walker and WMC ads for months. I have a hard time buying that those people approve of Walker or his policies, and I'm betting a good 5-7% of them would have voted for Barrett in a regular election. But they want to show people like us that "we don't want an endless ycle of recalls," which was a BS meme but was out there.

           The recall was absolutely the right thing to do because the WisGOP Legislature failed to hold Walker to account for his power-grabs and regressive policies. You cannot wait the 4 years to let that subside because there is too much damage done in the meantime. And there is little doubt that the spectre of recall limited some of Walker's more drastic steps, and when he overreaches next (and he will...if he's not indicted by then), we'll be right there telling those who wimped out on recalling him "NOW do you see what we meant?"

           Most people questioning the recall movement don't live here, and don't see the huge damage that has already been caused. When the system has broken down like it has here, the recall is a legitimate option. And next time, we're keeping it grassroots and not softening it up to fit a larger DPW agenda.

    •  You speak on the premise (23+ / 0-)

      that these figures regarding what Wisconsin voters felt about a recall were available and largely published from the get go, and somehow arrogantly ignored by Wisconsin Democrats.

      I think you, as what I assume to be a fellow political junkey, would have to admit that this information is very new in the mainstream. Why was there not a profusion of punditry on this issue till the day after the Washington Post Poll, and the day after the recall?

      But regardless of that debate, I repeat the question I asked in my diary.  What is the proper Democratic response to a governor like Walker?

      •  THAT is the question, Stella! (25+ / 0-)

        The WI Constitution provides for recall and it was put there by our forefathers precisely for instances like this with Walker.  Really, how people DARE question what we did boggles my mind.  Were we to just sit here and WATCH as he and his cabal destroyed our state?!  Had we not acted, Governor "Niedermeier" would have continued on in his rampage to destroy it's natural resources, impoverish our people, and treat us as serfs.  We have a Constitution that provides for recall; we followed the procedure for recall.  We did nothing illegal.  That Walker's shadow money backers poured their millions into keeping him in office meant he poisoned enough people's minds here via 24/7 ads for MONTHS and that he was able to retain his seat.  This election was bought and paid for by outside money.  I don't know about some of you, but I live in Wisconsin and we do NOT knuckle under to two-bit sociopaths with big money behind them.  And we don't have to apologize to anybody for daring to stand up for what we have every right to believe in.

        As for this meme of "people didn't WANT the recall", I say bullshit.  There was NO pushback of any size or strength against the recall.  Over ONE MILLION people signed the recall petitions with 940,000 signatures passing muster with the GAB.  There were a few grumbles---but NOTHING that would have led us to believe that this was a big issue or that we ignored it.  It didn't show.  I have to wonder if those who are pushing this meme are not aiding and abetting those who want to discredit any recall election.  After all, what if those uppity serfs all over the country got the idea to stand up to the corporations and wealthy elite who want to run this country and dared go after  their frontmen and women via recall.

        We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

        by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:13:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As usual my friend, (13+ / 0-)

          you make so many good arguments here, my head is spinning.

          I thank you for underlining the truth that there was NO pushback of any size or strength against the CONCEPT of a recall, until it hit the media after the loss.  You said it best when you said "It didn't show."

          I also cheer "we don't apologize to anybody for daring to stand up for what we have every right to believe in." Hell no.
          Like I said, that's what Democrats always gripe that other Democrats don't do.

          And finally yes, let our side carefully consider if they want to discredit recalls by calling this one a mistake, on the basis of a loss. Four years is a loooooooooooooooong time in these days of Citizens United, money we can't compete with, and power that has us just about where they want us.

          •  The only way I can see (11+ / 0-)

            "recalls are a bad idea all the time" making any sense is in a nation where the rule of law reigns supreme, money does not dictate advantage, and everyone plays fair. We do not live in that nation, if anything the idea is a figment that is used as a means of deception by the powerful; the majority shown after the recall to hold that opinion are Republicans or independents bought with corporate money.

            The recall was a good idea. We need to fight and go all in at times when core democratic principles are under assault. We need to use every available legal means at our disposal and civil disobedience when it makes sense. We need to push it as hard as we can right up to the ethical limits.

            I thank everyone who worked hard on this and especially all of you Wisconsinites. You're an inspiration and you given me a lot of strength here in NJ where we're under a similar assault, though it is somewhat more stealthy and aided by some bad Democrats who have given Christie and the Republicans a lot of cover.

            Recalls are in your constitution for a reason. Losing doesn't make it a bad idea--the Republicans may feel emboldened momentarily by their "win," but look at all the defense they've had to play and the insane amount of money you've made them spend to protect their advantage and you flipped the senate!

            Forward!

            (-8.38, -8.00) Occupy!

            by hyperstation on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:15:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Bull's-eyes! (6+ / 0-)

          Nothing for me to add you said it.

        •  As I remember it, there was disagreement (6+ / 0-)

          as to whether the recall should have been ASAP (which it was) or if they should have waited so that it could have been timed to coincide with the general election. Of course, the ideal thing would have been to have it right away in 2011, but the law did not allow for that.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:52:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's right, Alice. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            peptabysmal, JVolvo

            There was some back-and-forth with the Demoratic Party of WI about the timing.  I'm really not sure how the decision was made but I can see where the recall occurring at the same time as the Presidential election could have been pretty messy.

            We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

            by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:08:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And what become all too evident is (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens, JayRaye, JVolvo, wasatch, Creosote

            that it's not up to the petitioners to time it as they wish.

            Doesn't anyone else have a memory that goes back more than a few months?  Maybe to remember that we went out with petitions in winter, and did you notice that this election was in June?  Maybe to remember that we turned inthe petitions in winter -- see the video, and no, we really don't wear parkas and earwarmers and mittens in June in Wisconsin . . . well, 'way Up North, maybe at nght -- and that this election was not until June?  Nobody else remembers the delays by the GAB, which didn't even purchase! the computer program to process the petitions until they were turned in?  and then, and then. . . .

            If we had tried to time it for November, it would have ended up in late December, when some college students are back home, anyway.  And if you think that the gales of November are bad (thank you, Gordon Lightfoot, for a great song about our Great Lakes and those who take its weather too lightly), imagine the turnout in December here.

            We controlled what we could, we coped with the rest.

            And. We. Won. because our goal was to stop Walker.

            So sorry if we didn't provide the entertainment value desired by those who have no f*cking idea.  None.

            "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

            by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:23:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The people of Wisconsin did a wonderful job - (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mgleaf, Creosote, Cream City, 3goldens

              nothing to be ashamed of.  thank you for having a backbone and saying NO to Walker and the GOP.  Michigan is trying to stop a nasty GOP government and was able to recall a few state lawmakers.  Ohio was able to get the law taking down the unions and put it on the ballot and succeeded in overturning the law.  The democrats in all 3 states are a shining example of good citizens.  The fact that you were not able to get rid of Walker is sad.  However, you are a shining example for we the people, and we thank you for a job well done and standing up to fight the GOP with all you had.  BRAVO!  

        •  I see this election differently, in part. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, JayRaye, marty marty, cap76

          The voter who showed up at the polls to oppose the recall and those of us, in this State, who recognize that this did indeed occur does not necessarily mean that we are "aiding and abetting those who want to discredit the recall election". Is there punditry out there exploiting that meme? Sure there is! That's the norm.

          But to the point, no one supported this recall more than I and yet, I do believe that after the money is spent and any minds that shifted because of that, we were indeed left with voters who were against the recall EVEN IF they didn't care for Walker. That's the hard and fast truth.

          All of those same day registrants that we were told all day here and on left leaning radio were showing up because that always means we will vote for the Dem turned out to be utterly off the mark. Our own diaries here said that this was an unpredictable election; polls could not be trusted as this was beyond anything that had ever happened before. And we were right. We couldn't predict it, either. But we also got punched in the gut with that same reality.

          People around this blog have said time and again they don't understand how we can vote in Walker and still be leaning toward Obama. It makes perfect sense to anyone living here, yes 3G? We are a complex state. We are also, as one of GGB's very first diaries and comments on WI said, an enormously polite state. Think about it. Strip away the far left and right (and I agree there is a growing right with the media and the money) and you still have the essence of our heritage: Careful, steady, mostly predictable and polite. People did not like the recall and they showed up, many registering for the first time, to tell us that even though they might not fully support Walker, a recall is not what we want.

          I wanted it. I supported it. I worked for it. It is my right to ask for it and to help trigger it. The majority of WI disagreed with me. Doesn't make the recall wrong. Doesn't make the outcome wrong since if I believe in my right to request a recall I must believe in the right of fellow Wisconsinites to show how they feel. And they did. And we lost. Now we'll wait for them to wake up.

          Any pundit trying to make it out as anything less than democracy in action is an idiot.

          Wisconsin, reclaiming its State motto: Forward!

          by One bite at a time on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:27:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good points, One bite. (4+ / 0-)

            I still have a lot of questions based on what the pollsters reported election eve.  There were things reported----like people who voted for Walker and were going to vote for Obama in Nov. and the 30+% of union households that voted for Walker----that make me wonder if this state has gone schizophrenic.  There are things like these that simply don't add up IMO.  They're inexplicable contradictions.  For example, that huge %-age that was given for people who voted FOR Walker because they didn't support recalls.  My mind boggles at that.  Where WERE these people during the months that the petitions were being circulated.  I don't believe people in this state are that poite that they just kept quiet----look at Giles's latest diary and the behaviors of the Walker supporters.  I find the polling conclusions after the votes were cast very, very strange.  I'm not saying they're not valid but I find them very out of sync with would I would consider to be rational behavior.   I hope we hear more about them in coming days because I want to understand what went on here that these very odd data came out.

            We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

            by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:38:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think we got hipchecked (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens

              by the predominantly purple mix that we are: We don't do things this way except in extraordinary circumstances.

              Walker's divide and conquer strategy will work for some time to come but I do think our State is not yet ready to go red.

              That's why the Obama numbers are no surprise to me. They didn't want to interrupt Walker's agenda out of principles. Principles are good things and I've not lost a relationship during this tumultuous time because I see what is driving these people. Mix in some union dislike and some ignorance of Walker's shady character and you truly are left with a very simple decision for them to make at the polls: What's right according to my principles and what's wrong. A vote against Walker undermines some core principles. A vote for Obama is a completely different election.

              Where were these people? They don't protest, they decline signing a petition and they show up at the polls and that they did.

              Barring election fraud, which I think would be very hard to pull off in these numbers, I gotta go with my gut. Wisconsin has spoken, I'm sad and I'm certain many will regret their vote in the end.

              Wisconsin, reclaiming its State motto: Forward!

              by One bite at a time on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:15:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  See Bush 2004, Nixon 1972 (0+ / 0-)

                  A whole lot of regret is right. Those 5-7% who wimped out on the concept of firing their governor before his term was up are going to feel as stupid as middle-of-the-road people who voted for Bush in 2004 and Nixon in 1972. In their hearts, they know better, but they don't have the guts to admit we're right. They'll abandon Walker very quickly once he perp walks later this Summer.

      •  Nowhere do I say arrogantly (0+ / 0-)

        Nor do I suggest it. However as progressives we tend to let emotion rule when we should be thinking more strategically.

        One simple question wasn't asked would I want this done to me based on agenda and what would be my reaction if it was.

        Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

        by jsfox on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:14:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you want stategic thinking alone (13+ / 0-)

          then cast your fate with the DNC.  That's what they do, and I'm not calling it all wrong.  The recall in Wisconsin was a true grass roots uprising, not led by the union or the Democratic party, but rather latched onto after the fact.  

          It takes strategy, intellect AND A HELL OF A LOT of passion for the cause to move the needle in this country today.

          And I take great pleasure in answering your question, for me, regarding how I'd feel if the republicans recalled my guy.

          Let me start by saying, that I feel the republicans DID try to recall my guy when they impeached Bill Clinton over his private life.  I feel the republicans ARE STILL trying to recall my guy, by refusing to co-operate with him on any level, and hoping the results of that will put them back in power.  

          I realize I'm playing fast and lose with the word "recall."  But I think using it as a metaphor for ACTION is not incorrect.  I REFUSE to waste a second of my life worrying about how republicans may feel that their candidate earned himself a recall.  As we can see, they are very capable of answering to a completely LEGAL response to their candidate's behavior.

          Finally, if the republicans want to recall any Democrat, in terms of what it REALLY means to recall, then I say, have at it. For me, recall on either side, is a legitimate answer to citizen input beyond voting.

          •  You don't win without strategic thinking (0+ / 0-)

            And back in Febuary 54% of the voters were against the recall. The right was licking it chops that they would come away with a clear and morale boosting win. And they did didn't they.

            So by all means don't think strategically.

            Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

            by jsfox on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:58:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  By all means, (10+ / 0-)

              spin my comment the way you want to, but I never made a case against thinking strategically.  I said it also takes passion and the willingness to risk a loss.

              Let it not go unsaid that the right was scared out of their pants that Wisconsin Democrats might actually succeed at this, and therefore dedicated close to 30 million dollars to stop that from happening, breaking all records for a governor's race, handily.

              If you want to know what the right is truly afraid of, watch where the money goes.  And ask yourself, what is the proper response, other than voting, to those who have so much more money and power than you do.

            •  Source for the 54%? (8+ / 0-)

              Did I miss it upthread?  All I saw in comments was what I saw in Wisconsin:

              Nothing like that argument.

              Not until a day or so ago.

              I do think, nooz junkie that I am, that I would, ahem, recall if if more than half of Wisconsinites were polled and said that they were against a recall at all, in February of this year.  

              We sure didn't hear it last year here, and I'm in the number-one targeted district last year.

              Oh, by the way, we did think strategically, and it worked -- last year, this year.  That's how we won the state Senate and stopped Walker.  And guess what?  That was the goal.

              "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

              by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:28:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for you heartfelt concern for our well- (0+ / 0-)

              being in WI.

              To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

              by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:23:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Talk to the Repubs and Citizens for Responsible (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marty marty, Mgleaf, 3goldens, Creosote

          Govt who tried to recall previous (D) Gov Doyle (2005 and 2009) as well as a WI anti-choice group vs Sens Feingold and Kohl (1997).  These weren't idle threats: they filed the necessary paperwork and gathered signatures.  Luckily each one failed because it was truly extremely partisan and has no basis - only intense dislike for the Dem politician and pretty tame centrist Dem agenda (especially Doyle).

          So WI Repugs already let that cat out of the bag 15 years ago.

          Next?

          To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

          by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:22:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Walker got elected in Milwaukee due to a recall. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, valadon, Creosote
    •  Refraining from a principled fight (24+ / 0-)

      For fear that the other side might, someday, somewhere retaliate is exactly what has earned Democrats the reputation for cowardice from both the right and the left.  If Democrats won't stand up and fight for a principle, then it ain't a principle, it's just whining.
      I applaud Wisconsin, on my feet, with whistles, cheers and a "YOU TELL EM, SISTER!!!". You're exactly right Stella!

    •  Democrary isn't something you *do*...... (18+ / 0-)

      Democracy isn't something you do every 4 years, it's a lifetime commitment and the recalls prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

      The good people of Wisconsin didn't sit on their butts sipping lemonade everyday. They kept themselves informed on Walker's policies and when he started selling their state to the highest bidder robbing them blind, they took action like any patriotic American should.

      If 60% believe that's wrong, then they're the idiots. I'm sorry but that's a fact. After all the cheating, lying, swindling, incompetence, and damage he n' his ilk did/will do to their state for anyone with a hint of decency can see and they still voted him back, then the system isn't the problem, it's the stupid.

    •  Take that same poll in March 2011 (13+ / 0-)

      And you get a completely different answer. WI Republicans were not opposed to recalls as a matter of principle. That opinion is as firm as gossamer in a windstorm. That was rationalization not fundamental worldview.

      It was essential we fight back. Period and end of story. Fighting back was going to happen. The WI Democratic Party wisely chose to support the fight. As a result, the WI Democratic Party is strong today. Not to mention we've lost less than we would have otherwise.

    •  Why didn't the distaste for a recall (7+ / 0-)

      surface in earlier polls?  I've seen no discussion of this.

      My conjecture is that the never ending TV and other ads really turned people off to the process.  The Democrats are hardly responsible for that.

    •  Yes and when the 39% of GOP union members (0+ / 0-)

      have Walker goes after their union.....maybe they will feel differently.  Or maybe they are just dumb from watching too much FOX.

    •  What the % of WI voters who don't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote

      believe in recall raise is the question of how it could have been picked up during the campaign and given the strong attention it deserved to overcome.  It really intrigues me that all the calls and conversations did not pick this up some time before election day.  

      The initial thought is a lot of people had no interest in engaging in the discussions about the issues to vote for or against the recall. It is possible they just politely listened and didn't bother to explain that - which allows them to avoid defending it.

      As far as the false equivalency of the GOP conducting a recall for Obama's agenda, the recall was legal and they collected more signatures than needed of voters who thought there was misconduct.

      As for those who couldn't see/ believe it. I cast my first vote for the Dick in '72. Mea Culpa. Me and a landslide of other voters. While I am hoping that the suit against Blackwell for the '04 Ohio vote confirms that theft, across the nation there were plenty of others that made the loss of Ohio the loss of the election. I spoke to many myself.

      On raising questions.

      The important and difficult job is never to find the right answers, it is to find the right question. For there are few things as useless–if not dangerous–as the right answer to the wrong question. -- P. Drucker
      Great java, StellaRay. ;)  Surprisingly, there was some disagreement on another post today as to what things should NOT be discussed negatively here lest the trolls expose them for their own benefit. My alter ego was all for the discussion. I doubt if I make it another 30 years the Dem inability to distinguish between important (torture, repealing Glass Steagall) and unimportant (wind surfing, tank rides) will improve.  

      This

      So along comes the Wisconsin Recall, wherein democrats and progressives
      -put the words "wishy washy" on the back burner.
      - CREATE THE RING.  
      - blew the lid right off the idea that Democrats don't know how to fight.
      and redefined
       "This is what Democracy looks like" for the 21st century.

      AMEN

      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

      by Ginny in CO on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:31:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If Walker had been honest about his agenda (0+ / 0-)

      while he was campaigning originally, I might agree with you.

  •  Losing control of the WI Senate was their mistake (26+ / 0-)

    So yeah. The wingers were faced with an election where the Democrats had no downside and Republicans had no upside.

    It wasn't a mistake.

    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:44:02 PM PDT

    •  Perfectly put, Grumpy! (8+ / 0-)

      Walker did not call a special session yesterday to steal my life savings, my pension fund.  That was just one item on the agenda, but it had me sleepless many a night.  Others here do not see the emails we have seen who are in the pension fund, and are not my age and with no raises for years, and with unemployed children to help, and a spouse almost 70 who dares not retire -- as the 1%ers in Wisconsin already devastated his retirement fund, and we have feared losing mine.

      I'm sleeping a lot better now.

      Because we won.

      (As if getting Walker out was not gonna just usher in another Walker.  Puppetmasters have many puppets.  We needed to break the unholy triumvarate of power in the governorship, the supreme court, and the legislature -- both houses of the legislature.  That is unseen in Wisconsin . . . and now we will not see it again. . . .)

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:34:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you nailed it grumpy, plain and simple nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, GrumpyOldGeek, JVolvo

      WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

      by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:43:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Weeds Aren't That Deep or Tall.... (24+ / 0-)

    We ousted another Republican State Senator in Wisconsin.

    As a result, Democrats now control the Senate in Wisconsin, 17 to 15.  Walker may still be the Governor,  but he isn't going to get anything passed including Right to Work.

    He can prance & preen all he wants.....he's not going to get anything passed.

    He's moved on anyway.  Wisconsin is in his rear view mirror at this point.   He's going to the Republican National Convention in August where he will be celebrated as the new Ronald Reagan.  He won one for the Gipper....he thinks.

  •  Hell no the recall wasn't a mistake. (20+ / 0-)

    If anything, the 'mistake' was in national Dems badmouthing the recall and not funding it well enough.  Looking at you, Wasserman-Schultz and DNC.

  •  Money money money (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    itsbenj

    Also maybe the dem candidate is weak.

    Root of Job Loss: Low capital gains (tax incentive) for stock market casino compared to real businesses that produces Jobs. Great Business idea A Dept Store that sells only made in america goods

    by timber on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:56:06 PM PDT

    •  IMO, Barrett was a great (10+ / 0-)

      candidate.  Incredibly decent, well spoken and very courageous to step up and risk losing again. He got less than he deserved from Wisconsin in 2010, and again in 2012.  

      Feingold suffered the same kind of loss Barrett did in 2010, and he wouldn't touch running for governor in the recall with a ten foot poll.  I admire Russ, and don't mean to diss him.
      But I also won't stand by and not respond to those who might decide the reason for the loss, was once again, something the Democrats did wrong.

      Living in this age of bought elections requires us all to suck it up and realize that Occam's razor applies.  The simplest answer is usually the right answer.  Money.  On that we agree.

    •  He held Walker to no gain (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, JVolvo, 3goldens, Creosote

      despite a now-estimated-at more than $40 million on Walker's side.

      I know  the other candidates.  The one that so many here seem to think could have done it?  Ha.  Check that candidate's record in statewide races.  Watch that candidate in the primary debates.  And . . . well, I say no more, but we have seen that candidate before and before and before and. . . .

      With that candidate, Walker would have won by a margin beyond the worst nightmare you could imagine.  Instead, despite all the Koch millions and more, we held our own.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:44:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know how (0+ / 0-)

      weak he was or not, but it seems just blatantly obvious that putting the same candidate up as who had run against Walker and lost not two years ago was an incredibly short-sighted move, and actually somewhat insulting to voters...

      Think of me what you will, I've got a little space to fill. - Tom Petty

      by itsbenj on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:37:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We didn't "put him up". "insulting to voters"??? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marty marty, 3goldens, Creosote

        We gathered a million effing petition sigs.  Russ said he would not run.  4 other Dems stepped forward.  We had a primary.  The Dem VOTERS selected Mayor Barrett from the field of 4.

        I don't know where you are getting this.

        To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

        by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:30:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not "getting it" from (0+ / 0-)

          any source here or there, it's my own analysis of the situation. running the same guy was basically like saying "admit you were wrong last time!". those numbers showing that people just didn't like the overall idea of a recall are significant, and they're something we should all take something away from. I'm not saying the whole effort was wrong or bad, obviously the retaking of the state Senate is huge! but I do think that the gubernatorial recall was poorly thought out and executed.

          Think of me what you will, I've got a little space to fill. - Tom Petty

          by itsbenj on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 02:47:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Recall Was The Right Thing (17+ / 0-)

    to do and democrats came out to vote.  It was just too bad that 17 percent of democrats voted for Walker.  Also, 36% of union households that voted cast their vote for Walker.  We know 60% of union households voted for Barrett.  Why any union member voted for Walker is something that needs to be asked.  My husband says that some union members are republicans first and union members second.  Boggles the mind on that one.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:57:21 PM PDT

  •  Gotta wonder where all these (13+ / 0-)

    geniuses were on Monday.

    "Differences in political opinion are as unavoidable as, to a certain point, they may perhaps be necessary." George Washington

    by civil wingnut on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 04:59:52 PM PDT

  •  I'm sick of those who don't live in Wisconsin (15+ / 0-)

    telling us exactly how we went wrong, especially those who insist that Walker's incredible money advantage really didn't matter.

  •  It was the right thing to do. (23+ / 0-)

    I took the loss very hard because of my investment in it and the courage and determination of the Wisconsin grassroots activists to change the nation at the state level.  If every state with an ALEC/plutocratic controlled state government put out the same effort we could save ourselves.

    That resistance is futile is a 1% meme, whether propagated intentionally or naively (as is often the case) and is self-defeating belief against the power of the people for humanitarian decency through democratic activism.

    Considering the forces actively fighting against the recall, as well as those disparaging, denigrating and passively enabling the defeat, the Wisconsin citizens were remarkably effectively with their work.

    99%er. 100% opposed to fundamentalist/neoconservative/neoliberal oligarchs.

    by blueoasis on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:03:44 PM PDT

  •  It's not to dismiss the hard work (3+ / 0-)

    of the grassroots progressive activists that fought the recall battle that some of us have questioned the recall strategy since before it was even adopted.  Rather, those of us experienced in movement style politics are (all too) familiar with the strategic pitfalls that hinging an entire grassroots movement on a single partisan election vote entails.   The partisanship alone brings in externalities that have little or nothing to do with the nature and strength of the struggle, and tends to be divisive where the issues themselves are uniting..

    Secondly, in this specific case, it seemed like the decision to follow the recall course  was taken by state union and Dem party leaders that recognized that the "occupational" period of the movement was beginning to wind down, but were tactically at a loss of how to sustain momentum.  Every experienced community organizer I have discussed this with agrees that an entire phase of being a dense statewide network of effective local outreach and action bodies organized around the fight to retain collective bargaining rights should have been the immediate follow-on.  That 38% of union members voted for Walker is one of the primary (and predictble) consequences of omitting this stage.

    NONE of this is critical or or defamatory of the grassroots activists that left it all out there.  It does however reflect on the weakness of leadership and strategic decision-making in upper echelons of leadership in union and Democratic Party circles.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:05:53 PM PDT

    •  I think it was by design that state union and Dem (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, valadon

      leaders channeled the energy into electoral politics and diffuse it. Before those crazy protesters - the rank-and-file union members especially - get some crazy ideas like a general strike. And lest it gets out of hand for the Dems in which case they loose control.

      "The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out”. - George Carlin

      by Funkygal on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:52:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What you don't grasp (9+ / 0-)

      is that this recall WAS NOT the result of "state union and Dem party leaders..."  No. It was not.  And you had to be there all along to understand this.  

      This was a TRUE grass roots uprising, and I realize it's hard to believe in that given the Fox News/think tank/GOP money that created the Tea Party, but trust me, there was NONE OF THAT available when the spark burst into a bonfire in Wisconsin.  And there was precious little of that available after the fire began to burn---at least if you compare it to how the GOP responded to this threat from the get go.

      Did the Wisconsin Democratic party jump on board? Absolutely, and we can thank them for that if we look at the response of the Michigan Democratic party to Snyder, which has been tepid to non-existent.

      Did the Unions jump on board once they smelled the smoke? Absolutely.  But the idea that the unions led this battle in any way is as right wing of a talking point as it gets.

      With all due respect to all the community organizers you've discussed this with, life does not occur on a convenient graph that includes time to organize a deep and effective state wide education effort to save collective bargaining rights.

      Fact is, collective bargaining rights were stripped from public union members in the flash of an eye, legislatively speaking. Before Walker, those folks did not realize that they were going to have to fight for their lives over night.

      That's why Walker himself referred to it as "dropping the bomb." I don't think anything I can say better refutes the notion that folks should have been prepared for this  

    •  Except collective bargaining didn't resonate with (0+ / 0-)

      voters statewide.  It polled poorly compared to pushing against Walker's stunning education and BadgerCare cuts.  So there's that.

      And Walker's % of union household vote didn't change much from 2010.  He had the same union knuckleheads vote for him both times.

      This was a special event in every sense.

      Thank you for the larger picture view.

      To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

      by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:36:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think you're wrong. I think I saw polls earlier (0+ / 0-)

        that said most Wisconsinites supported collective bargaining, including for public employees.  I'd agree only in that union-busting was only one issue, along with education and BadgerCare cuts.  Then there's also raising taxes on Seniors while giving corporations more tax breaks.  There's also making voting harder.  In general, there was a radical agenda that I don't think the people of Wisconsin wanted, and I don't think is what Walker originally campaigned on.

        •  Nope. I don't know of any poll that said that. (0+ / 0-)

          Dems and Barrett polled to see what were their strongest issues vs Walker statewide.  Coll bargaining definitely was not it.  Neither were the voting restrictions.  

          If folks weren't paying attention to the underlying scheme of what ALEC/Kochs were doing, they thought Walker was doing a good job taking on those public employees and their "free" benefits.  The politics of resentment and divide/conquer work.  The spin that tree-hugging/weeny Dems stopped the mining project worked.

          I'm here.  I see the media spin and the well-meaning yet hopelessly misguided "regular" voter.  The 24/7 avalanche of Walker spin worked.

          To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

          by JVolvo on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 06:35:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So what were their strongest issues? Because (0+ / 0-)

            there were certainly polls at times that showed Walker with a high disapproval rating, polls that showed a majority of people wanted Walker recalled, and even a poll that showed if there were a do-over, Barrett would win.  All that was before the recall was actually on, though.

            •  All of that was even earlier -- the Walker ads (0+ / 0-)

              began well before the recall was on (i.e., certified by the state with enough petition signatures).

              Yes, before that, Walker had for some months higher disapproval than approval.  I'm not sure re collective bargaining that it had a majority, but yes, it certainly had higher support before the Walker ads as well.

              The main thing that hurt us, it seems, and that was not evident before the Walker ads was the message hammered home that recalls were bad, bad, bad unless and until the official has publicly admitted to malfeasance in office and possibly also to eating kittens for breakfast.

              That is, a governor campaigned and barraged with ads against the state constitution, as it clearly specifies (and its proponents such as Fighting Bob La Follette said) that recalls are for whatever reason the public decides.

              When a governor campaigns against the state constitution and a hallowed right within it as authored by one who has been a hero in Wisconsin history for a century, well, I dunno what to do.  This is not my father's and forefathers' and foremothers' Wisconsin anymore.

              I now am wondering when Fighting Bob and Battling Belle Case La Follette will be disappeared from the state history books.  And, as I have a complete collection of those, whether I will be dragged out of my abode wiht my state history books to be burned at the stake with them.

              "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

              by Cream City on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:53:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Ray Bradbury died recently. (20+ / 0-)

    David Brin related this story in Salon:

    Onstage, Ray Bradbury could wax eloquently and vociferously angry at one thing, at one human trait — cynicism. The lazy habit of relishing gloom. The sarcastic playground sneer that used to wound him, and all other bright kids, punishing them for believing, fervently, in a better tomorrow.

    Ray had one word for it. Treason.

    Empower your kids to protect themselves! Renee wrote 2 diaries about radKIDS, a national skills-building program.

    by 2thanks on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:06:27 PM PDT

    •  Thank you for this. (7+ / 0-)

      And kudos to Ray Bradbury, and sympathy to all of us who mourn the loss of this very smart, empathetic, hopeful human being---who took so many risks to entertain us.  RIP, Mr. Bradbury.

      The cynics always sit back in their easy chairs, and today often at the keyboard, sipping whatever, and relieving themselves of any duty to take the risk that might cause the pain of disappointment.  To take the risk that might show them to be vulnerable.  To be brave, rather than bitter.

  •  asdf (16+ / 0-)

    no regrets.

    we flipped the state senate. no more crazy legislation.

    furthermore, it was a good prep for november. voters can be mobilized more easily in Nov.

    furthermore, we got a peak at the anti-union republican memes, and can work on how to counter them. time to find out respectfully why Obama voters chose to vote against the recall and dialogue.

    $ to DFA, none to DSCC/DCCC/DNC

    by grrr on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:15:07 PM PDT

  •  It educated many people about who is pulling the (9+ / 0-)

    strings, and the dangerous agenda ahead.

    We need to reach more people-and get them to see what they are letting themselves in for by voting against their own interests.

    It is a shame our 'media' is just a walker rubber stamp. His environmental policies are a disaster, along w/everything else.
    Unfortunately, the teevee was full of lies and spin.  Eg: the NRA fanboys who wouldn't listen to us, and voted for him will find, in the future, the only deer they can afford to 'bag' will be roadkill. 4 wheeled hunting~awesome. When his policies start to affect them-and they will-guaranteed-maybe they will come around.

    A seat was gained, and that is a huge help for a while.

    It puts them on notice-goes to show them we are not afraid to stand up for what we believe in. Destroying that old tired meme of us being cowed.

    Has anyone ever figured out (soft pac money included) just how much $$$$$ his handlers paid per vote?

    •  Darn, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peptabysmal, JayRaye, 3goldens, JVolvo

      I read that exact approximation---of how much Walker paid per vote, vs. Barrett---and do you think I can remember it?
      Nope.

      Suffice to say, it was not pretty.

    •  $26 per GOP vote vs. $4 per Dem vote (6+ / 0-)

      according to amounts known yesterday, and they soared more today, courtesy of calculations by a sibling of mine, a public policy prof who has the programs in his computer for such stuff.

      Had we known that . . . nah, we still would have done it -- because we did it! we stopped Walker from doing worse.  We saved our Wisconsin.  And that is serious, with his plans for destroying our natural resources.

      People, you mess with the Great Lakes watershed, and you'd see the detritus across this continent.  

      We can recover from Walker's destruction of so many of our laws and traditions and the like -- really, really, really, really, collective bargaining was only one of dozens of destructive acts here, so stop it with the single factor! -- but recovery from what his mining bill would have done, and all over the state to wetlands (READ IT), and the recovery would take thousands of years.  If ever.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:54:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Confederates won in Bull Run (12+ / 0-)

    But the Union kept on fighting.

    So slavery ended.

    This will not be as bloody but it will be as important.

    We will fight until the oligarchs and their brain dead troops surrender.

    (posted from my iPhone in flight to NN, cool)

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:30:24 PM PDT

  •  Sullivan doesn't know (6+ / 0-)

    everything.

    "...Can't do nothing, girl, without somebody bugging/ I used to think that it was me/ But then I learned it wasn't." --Salt NPepa None of Your Business

    by chicating on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:39:40 PM PDT

    •  What's an Andrew Sullivan? (5+ / 0-)

      Another division of PunditCo, LLC?

      •  he's smart, but certainly not infallible... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund

        and my book weird, for being a gay Republican.
        He has a good vocabulary, though.

        "...Can't do nothing, girl, without somebody bugging/ I used to think that it was me/ But then I learned it wasn't." --Salt NPepa None of Your Business

        by chicating on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:11:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Certainly not. (5+ / 0-)

      I referenced him because he was the first major pundit I saw calling the recall a mistake.  But have heard it since, plenty.

      I like Andrew Sullivan.  Don't always agree with him, but he's smart and worth reading.  In this case, I think he missed the boat, and I think he missed it because he doesn't really understand the dynamics at hand in Wisconsin.

      And because I SO disagree with his bottom line, which is basically that hoary old chestnut, "elections have consequences."  Sure they do, that's not even the argument at hand, although many seem to think it is.

      But if that's so, that elections have consequences, how come the GOP refuses to acknowledge that for a minute?  How come it's only Democrats saying that?

      No, the GOP hasn't accepted ONE CONSEQUENCE for losing in 2008, and for their generous share of screwing things up epically before then.

      For the GOP, elections don't have consequences, as long as they can lie and stonewall themselves past them.

      •  of course they do, (0+ / 0-)

        but executive overreach should too. (Although, I'm in Arizona, so that sentence should be in Klingon right now, probably.)

        "...Can't do nothing, girl, without somebody bugging/ I used to think that it was me/ But then I learned it wasn't." --Salt NPepa None of Your Business

        by chicating on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:01:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Diaper Pissing Cowards MU$T Lie To Protect (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JayRaye, 3goldens, JVolvo, marty marty

    their fucking lies -

    1994 happened and 1984 happened and 2002 happened and 1988 happened and 2000 happened and 2010 happened and Scott Walker happened and Scott BRown happened ... cuz...

    the "moderates" are MO$T focused on staying employed, and they're GREAT at fucking lying and at fucking sell us out and at keeping their goddam 6 figure a year jobs while lying and selling us out!

    I voted FOR these fuckers for decades! I kept HOPE-ing that all this "we gotta appeal to the middle" crap was MORE than crap, I kept HOPE-ing that all these hyper connected hyper educated hyper credentialed yuppie sell out fucks were MORE than just yuppie sell out fucks - yawn.

    There is the bottom 80% +++, there is the 7 or 13% of mouth breathing fascist serfs, there is the 8 or something percent of upper middle cla$$ non sexist non rascist non bigoted non flat earth don't rock the boat rich pig ass kissers - and there is the 1/2% who are the same kind of thieving parasitic scum cla$$ at the top who've existed in EVERY society since agriculture has allowed enough surplus to support a thieving parasitic scum cla$$.

    Time to leave the 'moderates' to their own devices - they've had they're chances, fuck 'em.

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 05:43:04 PM PDT

    •  That should play well in the swing states. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      seabos84

      Where are we, now that we need us most?

      by Frank Knarf on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:28:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wake up - the 'swing' states have been betrayed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo

        for 40 years by these liars and cowards kowtowing to the right wing definition of "swing state" -

        HOWEVER - waste YOUR time and waste YOUR money however the hell YOU want!!!

        do you live in 1 of those nice neighborhoods (I live close so LOT$ of them in Seattle!) where the latest conventional wisdom sell out doesn't hit the bottom line the way hits the bottom line of us normal people?

        I am NOT a communication / political expert, BUT

        the worthless fucks we've been hiring and we've supporting are ... oh !!

        worthless fucks! have fun with 'em, I've already wasted my votes on 'em for almost 30 years.

        rmm.

        Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

        by seabos84 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:46:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ahhh, the old 2000 & 2004 bank it all on the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marty marty

        14-16 swing states and lose strategy.

        No thanks, I like Howard Dean's results from pushing them hard everywhere - and winning (see 2006).

        To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

        by JVolvo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:42:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, winning is the objective. Try wining using (0+ / 0-)

          the seabos84 approach and let us know how that works.  The structural forms of politics and the ideological makeup of the electorate may make you unhappy, but you have to win in the actual world, not in some fantasy progressive utopia.

          Where are we, now that we need us most?

          by Frank Knarf on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 06:17:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ahhh. "fantasy progressive utopia." Got it. (0+ / 0-)

            Thanks for your centrist concern.  You can leave WI alone now.

            To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

            by JVolvo on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 06:38:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'm proud of and encouraged (9+ / 0-)

    by the tireless efforts of Wisconsinites to stop the nasty corporate partisan CRAP rammed through by Walker and his rubberstamp legislators.

    I had a friend (biz. associate who became a friend) who lives in Milwaukee. Republican, dyed-in-the-wool worshipper of Mammon. Makes over $100k and is not in a union, so hates unions --???? Anyway, his nastiness via emails got so bad when Walker was elected that I stopped corresponding with him. The guy was GLOATING over Walker's attacks on unions, and GLOATING that Feingold was voted out.

    Guess who sent me another gloating email, after all these months, Wednesday morning? "WISCONSIN LEADS THE NATION" was part of the subject line.

    I deleted the email without reading it. People like that make me fear for my country.

  •  Good for the people who worked on the recall (8+ / 0-)

    Sullivan and the rest of the beltway spewers are clueless.  Look at all the damage Walker did in a year.  Look what W did in 4 years.  We should wait?  Crazy talk.

    You took back the senate.  You scared the poop out of Walker and made them spend 30 million.  That's 30 million that won't be in other races.  You organized and will be ready for the November election.  There is a lot of good stuff to come out of this recall.  My take on the silver lining.

  •  Thank You, StellaRay. (9+ / 0-)

    They are trying to shove this meme down our throats and it makes me want to puke.

    We do not need their permission to do what we are allowed to do under the law. 1,000,000 people signed the recall. More than was needed.

    Folks will do that when a Gov messes with their livelihood. Of course, the ruling class likes it better when the working class bows meekly and says OK fine take $10,000 a year away from us. In fact make it $20,000, and double my work load too while you're at it as you lay off my fellow workers.

    Good little workers, nice quiet meek and bowed little workers.

    God forbid we ever fight back. no no no bad bad workers. This meme from the media controlled by our bosses should not surprise us one little bit. To be expected.

    rant over

    WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

    by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:05:43 PM PDT

    •  PS. Fuck Em. We have just begun to fight. nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hyperstation, 3goldens, JVolvo

      WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

      by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:15:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nooo, rant on! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, JayRaye, JVolvo, Creosote

      This is a great comment. Cutting, pasting, and filing it.

      "Ohhh, we're sooo sorry.  We forgot to ask the permission of everyf*ckingbody else to . . . circulate petitions."

      Jeebus H., read your history, people, about how the heck we ever became a country.

      I guess we were supposed to toss beer in the Milwaukee harbor for you to see the parallel?  Well, fuggedaboudit, THAT would have been a waste.  We don't let a drop of a quarter-barrel go to waste here.

      But the recall?  Not a waste of my time and effort.  Anyone who regrets their time and effort on it never got it, anyway.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:00:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep, and if they think the working class is going (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tinwi, JVolvo, marty marty, Creosote

        to go quietly back to the days of peonage, company towns, debt bondage, company guards, -except that this time around they are planning a Company Nation, owned by billionaires with a cowed and beaten working class.

        They damn well better think again. We fot them before and we'll fight the bastards again if we have to.

        Time to pass out the red bandannas again, like the UMWA members tied around their necks when they went into battle, 1914, 1921. Wobblies also, 1916, Minnesota Iron Range.

        They didn't ask permission either. Oh, Gov, please may we form a union and go out on strike?

        And years later, it was a Union state like MN that gave us Senator Paul Wellstone.

        The name of the Democratic party in MN:
        The Democratic Farmer Labor Party.

        Time these Democrats learned that the state party can only be strong when the state labor movement is strong. We need to make it clear: support us, and we will support you.

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

        by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:32:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How right you are about not asking but taking even (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye

          if it is now illegal

          •  Strikes were basically illegal then, the law was (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mgleaf

            the company guards in some places, and they went after union members with the force of law, and did not hesitate to bring out their guns against strikers.

            The early unionist had high ideals about "industrial democracy" and took the word "solidarity" very seriously. To live and die with their union brothers and sisters. "A injury to one is an injury to all."

            We need to get back to that. And then "divide and conquer" could never work.

            WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

            by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:54:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Thinking the recall was a bad idea (0+ / 0-)

      is an opinion, not a meme.

      And "shoving X down our throats" is exactly as attractive when you say it as when tea partiers say it about PPACA. Sorry that an opinion shared by some folks makes you want to puke. You're in for a stressful life if the opinions of others can have that effect on you.

      •  And sorry for you when they come after your (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Argyrios, valadon, Creosote

        wages, benefits, pension, collective bargaining rights, or other rights.

        Who will be left to stand with you then? Since you seem to think working people should just bow down and surrender.

        An opinion becomes a meme when it is picked up by the MSM and passed around for days on end. Perhaps you don't understand what the word "meme" means. Or perhaps you just don't understand how the MSM creates opinion.

        And YOU will have a stressful life without the Solidarity of your fellow workers. "Whatcha you gonna do when they come for YOU."

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

        by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:47:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Like almost all private-sector workers (0+ / 0-)

          I don't actually get a pension. I do favor strong labor laws, but I wasn't writing about that, and I mention it just to clear that up.

          Perhaps I don't understand what a meme is or how the MSM creates opinion. I would not want to think of myself as so all-knowing as to understand something so complicated as the spread of information in a society. Thank you for your perspective on the matter. I actually kind of like Urban Dictionary's second-most-popular definition of meme, though.

  •  It cost me some money, some time ... (7+ / 0-)

    ... and it was totally worth it. We have a Democratic State Senate in Wisconsin, as well as the World Record for number of successful recalls of state legislators in a 12-month period. I use the word "we" even though I'm not a Badger.

    Also, this was the first time that successful recalls -- and not recalls and other measures -- were used to change party control of an entire state house. All of that occurred in an environment in which a large portion of the electorate is supposedly wary of the recall process.

    The Republicans were forced to spend a crapload of money to fight the recall, and there are, I believe, 19 other states that allow for recalls, with Michigan and its Republican-controlled state senate the next likeliest target.

    I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

    by Tortmaster on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:06:42 PM PDT

  •  I canvassed but... in retrospect it WAS a mistake (6+ / 0-)

    My partner and I canvassed in Milwaukee on Saturday morning and afternoon.  The GOTV effort was organized by OBAMA for America.  We had canvassed in Indiana in 2008 and in Illinois in 2010.

    I am proud to have canvassed and I have no regrets.  Barrett's supporters were quite enthusiastic.  But we also met several Walker supporters, quite polite I might add.

    I know this is an unpopular view here but we didn't win, we LOST.  The republicans are now more emboldened than ever and other state governors are viewing Scott Walker as a role model.   Yes we won the Senate but it is not clear whether we can retain it after the November 2012 election.

    I am a fighter and the emotional response was to fight and go for the recall.   But there was a lot of evidence that Walker was not terribly unpopular -- I could be wrong but his approval ratings were never very low, as were Gray Davis' when he was successfully recalled.'

    The failure to win the Supreme Court recall and to take over the Wisconsin Senate in the previous recount were also evidence that Walker's chances of winning were quite good.

    The rational decision would have been not to do the recall.  I believe this is why the national Democrats and President Obama where not fully behind it (although the Obama campaign did lend their support to the GOTV effort as evidenced in my case).

    •  Particularly since Citizens United uprisings (0+ / 0-)

      like that in Wisconsin and OWS are more crucial than ever as a way of demonstrating the disconnect between what the people want   and what they get via a corrupt and non-representative electoral process.

      Do you know anything about the Teachers' Assistants Association's refusal to endorse the recall? I've cited and linked an article about it in my comment below. If there's anything you might add to that I'd like to know.

       

      The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

      by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:57:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is based on my recollection (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wolf10, JayRaye, JVolvo, valadon

        from last spring (March, April 2011).  It was my sense then that there were individuals in the TAA who wanted a general strike very badly.  It didn't happen and I think that was for a couple of reasons:
        1.  We had a recall process built into our state constitution and many people  felt that the process should be followed first before thinking about a general strike.
        2.  The support of a majority of labor unions would be imperative for a general strike.  That was not forthcoming.  Strikes are illegal in WI and with people in a bind as it is to how to pay their bills, feed and clothe their kids, and hold onto their homes due to the economy as it was, people weren't in support of doing that.  I fully expect that Walker and his cabal would have gone after strikers with a vengeance and people with mortgages and children could not risk being out of a job.  Also, the  South-Central WI Federation of Labor said that it and its members would support a strike IF other unions would join in.  That support was not forthcoming.  

        One additional thought:  If people in WI didn't like the recall, a general strike would have polarized this state like NOTHING you have ever seen. The right-wing would have gotten the all-out war I sometimes think they want.

        So, I am speculating here but I think there may have been some bad feelings with TAA feeling that their more radical ideas weren't accepted and so they pulled back and wouldn't support the recall.  Others here are far more involved in public employee unions in Wi and they may have more and better info than I've been able to provide.  

        We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

        by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:38:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Of course, you could leave. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, Creosote

      Those of us still here feel differently.

      But thanks for giving us a day.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:01:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Republicans will always be emboldened. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye

      You can not stop Republicans by refusing to fight.  I am so proud of what you did in Wisconsin.

  •  Mistake? (9+ / 0-)

    I would dearly love to belong to a Democratic Party that isn't afraid of its own shadow.

    This is DLC madness. The big money is backing Walker, the DNC doesn't want to offend the big money, so the Democratic Party rolls over.

    Blah!

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:15:09 PM PDT

  •  Question to the "experts"? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, NoMoreLies, JayRaye, marty marty

    Why wasn't recalls a "mistake" When Arnold defeated Gray Davis in California?

    One does not simply walk into Mordor! One invites a gas driller in, and one’s land becomes Mordor. Chris From Balloon Juice

    by Mr Stagger Lee on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:32:05 PM PDT

  •  The Teachers' Assistance Assoc. did not support (0+ / 0-)

    the recall. Some member did but the group voted not to do so.

    Opposition to curbing collective bargaining rights for public workers drove tens of thousands of demonstrators to the Capitol last year, but people on both sides of the recall election might not remember that now.

    Democrats are making the issue less of a priority in their campaign messaging. Instead, they're focusing on Gov. Scott Walker's leadership style and budget cuts rather than offering a forthright defense of unionism and collective bargaining. This tack frustrates more than a few union supporters, but only one union is throwing down the gauntlet.

    The UW's Teaching Assistants' Association (TAA) has declined to endorse Democratic challenger and Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, who faces Walker in the June 5 recall election. Theyalso withheld its support from Democratic primary candidate Kathleen Falk on the grounds that she wouldn't commit to a firm stance against budget cuts and concessionary contract negotiations with state workers.

    UW Teaching Assistants' Association won't support Tom Barrett in recall election

    And from Matt Stoller, admittedly an inveterate Obama critic, we have this:
    By calling for a recall instead of a general strike after Walker stripped collective bargaining rights and cut benefits for workers, labor and Democratic leadership in the state diverted and then subverted populist energy, channeling it into an electoral process (at least one union, one very active in the occupation of the Capitol, stood apart from the electoral stupidity[The TAA as noted above]) .  Then, Barrett, an anti-labor centrist, won the Democratic primary by crushing his labor-backed opponent, Kathleen Falk.  Finally, Barrett himself was destroyed by Scott Walker, who outspent Barrett 7-1 with corporate money.  In other words, first, liberals lost a policy battle, then they failed to strike, then they lost a primary election, then they lost a general election to the most high-profile effective reactionary policy-maker in the country.  The conservative beat the moderate who beat the liberal.  And had Barrett won, he wouldn’t even have rolled back Walker’s agenda.  Somehow, in a no-win electoral situation, Democrats and labor managed to lose as badly as they possibly could.

    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

    by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 06:46:09 PM PDT

    •  So many things here to respond to... (7+ / 0-)

      First of all, the TAA chose not to support Barrett because he was not sufficiently labor oriented for them.  Fine.  Now the TAA has another two years of Walker, who believe me, is WAY less sufficiently labor oriented than Barrett, just to indulge in understatement.  This kind of thinking drives me crazy.  All or nothing almost always ends up in nothing.

      Secondly, as per Stoller, Barrett is not "an anti-labor centrist" and did not "crush" his opponent.  This "crush" kind of language suggests a Romney primary like move, take all your money and use it as a stand in for your voice.  Well, Barrett ran in the primaries, fair and square against Falk, and he won.  And NOT DUE TO THE MONEY HE SPENT.  I refuse to give another word to this argument, as it's ridiculous.

      Barrett was on record for saying he believed in collective bargaining rights, and also on record for saying he'd seek compromises that worked for the unions, and worked for Wisconsin.  Compromise seems to be a dirty word on both sides of the isle these days.  But that doesn't make Barret "anti-labor."

      And how the HELL does Stoller know that Barret wouldn't
      "even have rolled back Walker's agenda."  Wow, the nerve to write something like that.  To me this is irresponsible, bull pucky, self agenda masturbation on his part.

      And finally this comment from Stoller---

      "Somehow, in a no-win electoral situation, Democrats and labor managed to lose as badly as they possibly could"

      is EXACTLY why I wrote this diary.  Who was to say it was a "no win" electoral situation before it happened?  Who is to say there were no wins in this battle?  

      I'll tell you who.  Cynical Monday morning quarter backs who spit on what they say they believe in, when the going gets tough.  People who are always the FIRST to rush to the winning side, and leave the "losers" to their disgrace.
      People who make unequivocal statements like this, that are as untrue as they are arrogant.

      •  Once again, thanks, Stella! (7+ / 0-)

        People ripping on Barrett as not pro-union enough make me sick.  I read that screed by Matt Stoller and I wanted to rap him one upside the head.  For him to rip on Tom Barrett and the situation here when he knows NOTHING about what the situation has been like here since Walker got elected backed in November, 2010 is ridiculous.  That article by him was, IMHO, beyond the pale.  Another "keyboard commando" ripping about a situation they have no real knowledge of.  

        Totally agree with you about the TAA---they didn't support Barrett so now they can live with Walker.  Cut off nose; spite face.  Really bright!  NOT.

        We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

        by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:46:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I doubt that it is TAA's fault that Barrett lost-- (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens

          Stoller's criticism of centrist dems seems to come from a not unreasonable belief that our particular form of democracy has become so corrupted and ineffectual that it has rendered electioneering by itself to be only marginally useful. At least that's my principal inference and I'm sticking by it.

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:11:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have a point definitely. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wolf10, StellaRay, JayRaye, Creosote

            What I did not care for in Stoller's criticism is that I felt as if he was just griping and I guess I'd like to hear at least suggestions for solutions.  I like Stoller and agree with him frequently.  But in this instance, I felt as though he was yelling about something a lot of us already know.  I'm tired of being told what I already know.  I don't like what he wrote about anymore than HE does.  But, I'd like somebody to say what they think should be done about our "corrupted and ineffectual" politicians and political parties.  He's a bright guy and I wish he would have gone further than he did.

            We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

            by 3goldens on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:22:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Just griping." (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wolf10, 3goldens, Creosote

              Yep, that says what I was struggling to say.  And again, what I asked in my diary.  What IS the proper response to a governor like Walker?

              I'm not familiar with Stoller, and am only commenting on the quotes from the article Wolf10 presented.  And no, I didn't like what I saw.  

            •  I think he's liking the Greek radical left's (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens, valadon

              example but with the reservation that Tsipras may yet "lose or betray". Also, it would appear that he approves of general strikes and other mass direct action as a way of educating and mobilizing an apathetic public. Winning meaningful elections would then follow.

              But underlying such tactics is a radical critique of, for lack of a better term, the way we do business. None of this critique would be a shock to you or anyone who regularly uses this website. Generally these views will not gain currency from their being espoused by almost any politician with any hope of raising enough money to be heard let alone elected.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:49:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Wolf, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens, Wolf10

            I never said that it is TAA's fault that Barrett lost, nor do I hear 3goldens saying that.  The TAA made their choice and we all agree it was their right to do so, and no one's saying they were the problem here.

            You say this:

            Stoller's criticism of centrist dems seems to come from a not unreasonable belief that our particular form of democracy has become so corrupted and ineffectual that it has rendered electioneering by itself to be only marginally useful. At least that's my principal inference and I'm sticking by it."

            Please explain to me how the Democrats in the Wisconsin recall, and Barrett, deserve this?  Seems to me, they did everything BUT allow "electioneering" to have the final say. They fought this battle with 2 drops in a bucket compared with a tsunami of money from the GOP.  Seems to me this is just another version of "both sides do it."

            •  The Wisconsin labor uprising was absolutely right; (0+ / 0-)

              anything that was done wrong tactically is a learning opportunity. Truly, the price of the lesson has been painfully dear.

              My two biggest concerns are that some among us will take this as an indication that money can't be beaten. I am highly susceptible to this particularly sin of despair. The second is that in order to win elections we feel we must put forward ever more moderate candidates espousing policies that will moderate the American middle class right out of existence.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 07:16:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks, but Stoller, whatever his deficiencies, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, cap76

        would not rush to Walker's side or the side of any like him.

        Conflation of criticism from the left with that from the right drives me crazy.

        The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

        by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:56:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, last spring, I talked with my TAs (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrsgoo, Wolf10, 3goldens, Creosote

      and many others every day . . . and they twisted in the wind.  This way, that way, this way, that way.  They finally called a strike for a day.  One of my four TAs went.  The other three were there.  And they were ticked and did not support it.  And so it went on, for week after week of flipflopping and . . .

      Anyway, I have not seen evidence that TA's were united.  

      And of the TAs I know, most supported the recall.

      Somehow, this is reminiscent of WEAC a few weeks ago, when the members finally told the leaders to stuff it and do what the members told them to do, rather than take WEAC again down the path it took in 2010.

      And the result was: Walker.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:06:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your observation re TAA members is supported (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        by comments posted to the article I linked and quoted above. It is probably true that the hardships and repercussions that would be borne by taking more radical action have yet to exceed those that are currently being endured. I think this is changing rather rapidly.

        The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

        by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:19:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the update on TAA (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, 3goldens, Creosote

      which has just lost my support.

      And it just might need it.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:28:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Agree with the overall premise of the diary. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JayRaye, tinwi

    I wasn't surprised that Prez Obama didn't involve himself in the fight, nor other big shots of the Dem party. Not because they can't get involved in each and every person's wish list of fights, but they don't want to. They are in a tough spot - of pretending to work for the 99%(by throwing us some crumbs)  while actually working for the 1%. (Repubs don't have to pretend - they work for the 1%. period).  
    Obama inserted himself into the issue of mass firing of public schools teachers in Central Falls, RI. He went on to applaud the firing while speaking to a gasp! US Chamber of Commerce crowd, crowing about accountability! (Chamber of Commerce - that ultimate icon of accountability , ha!) .So he will insert into fights he wants to.   Dems don't want a people-powered uprising succeed, lest it they get regime-changed in a similar way tomorrow. That is why they don't care.

    And saying that workers rights, collective bargaining etc are just  some people's wish list and are not to be taken seriously by the president contradicts your own central theme.  I don't find it trivial at all. It is THE most important issue in fighting the plutocracy. Economy is THE most important issue and unions are crucial if the economy is to ever improve.

    "The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out”. - George Carlin

    by Funkygal on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:06:40 PM PDT

  •  The recall wasn't a mistake. The flag bearer was! (0+ / 0-)

    Just my humble opinion.

  •  many people are fond of saying that (0+ / 0-)

    money can only get you so far in politics, but the message is the most powerful thing of all (or words to that effect).

    That seems true to me.

    Well, based on the results in Wisconsin, perhaps it's time to look at that more closely.

    My guess is that the floodgate of secret corporate money unleashed by five of the most corrupt Supreme Court Injustices in American history (Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts & Kennedy, in their Citizens United ruling/abomination/in-kind contribution to the Republican Party) had a lot to do with the outcome.

    Unfortunately, the message from the progressive side was apparently not strong enough to counter that money and the resistance to the idea of a recall.

    It seems to me that stronger, more powerful messages (and perhaps a stronger, more powerful messenger) could well have made the difference of four percent.

    In hindsight, we progressives also need to start looking at things a little more objectively. While we who support unions strongly considered Walker's actions to be absolutely abhorrent, your average, everyday citizen who may see some benefit to unions but also have some mixed feelings about them might have looked at what was going on, not particularly cared for Walker's policies, but might have been a little put off at what they may have perceived as "Chicken Little's" cries of the sky falling. To independents and certainly a fair chunk of Republicans, it appears that the messaging may have come across to them as a little shrill? Messaging also includes tone, context and persuasion. Too bad we didn't have messages that were a little more persuasive to those in the middle.

  •  My husband and I have a few windsocks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, myboo, 3goldens

    in our lives. They voted for Walker because they voted against the recall. One of them didn't even vote for Walker the first time.

    A word about the senate seat: there will be a recount and don't count your chickens before they've hatched on this one. And then we have Nov. The first chance Scooter gets, he'll change that recall law. Please also note, some dems in the legislature have also indicated that they think the recall law needs to be looked at. It's possible that this law could change under their watch.

    Voters like our windsocks, who also happen to hunt, will need to let Walker finish out his term or be indicted before they'll turn on him. They liked some of  what he did but in the end, they felt the recall was unwarranted. They'll simply need to come to this themselves as the damage for their vote unravels.

    Can't say, "I told you so" now and probably won't in the future, either. But we know that's coming.

    Wisconsin, reclaiming its State motto: Forward!

    by One bite at a time on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:27:56 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for adding in, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, 3goldens, Creosote

      One bite at a time.  I really wanted to have this discussion here before "the recall was a mistake!" meme took any further hold.

      As for November, we'll have to see what that brings. I don't argue that it could be more of the same.  SIGH.  But at least the recall has afforded us 6 months to regroup without Walker jangling our nerves with more right wing legislation rammed through.

      And, the recall did tell us, via exit polls, that Wisconsin still supports Obama by 7 points.  Can it change?  Sure.  But for today, which is all we can discuss, this bodes well not only for the president, but for his down ticket, which includes the Wisconsin House, and Senate.

      And no, I don't think Walker will call a special session to put a bullet in the recall law, no matter what some democrats in the legislature have been heard to say.  Until one of those democrats goes on record as saying "I will support Scott Walker in killing the Wisconsin Recall law," it's all idle gossip.

  •  How else? (5+ / 0-)

    Can we push the Overton window back to center let alone center left? The recall was a valiant effort to presere workplace democracy. It did not fail. We set the stage to recapture the Senate this fall. It takes time to change attitudes and behaviors.

    WI Democratic Party built infrastructure and statewide networks. While they lost the dig battle they did succeed in creating a divided government that will at the very least slow if not stop the KOCH agenfa. The senators need to use their majority to advance and explain to the voters their agenda.

    We need to view this as a 30 year war. The GOP spent the last 46 years building their current institutions. Push back harder and smarter!

    •  This is so true: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, tinwi, Mgleaf

      "We need to view this as a 30 year war."  Because darn tootin'
      right that the GOP has spent over 3 decades in setting up the battle.

      Yes, "Push back harder and smarter,"  but sometimes the smarter takes awhile to figure out.  So we just have to push back with what we know, and learn as we go.

  •  Doing the right thing is always right (8+ / 0-)

    Regardless of whether it is immediately (or ever) successful.  Our brothers and sisters in Wisconsin have greatly advanced our cause.  They have made labor visible and credible and inspiring.  They have registered many voters who are likely to vote with us in the future.  They have warned of the predictable failures and evils of Walker's policies and will gain credibility as  these warnings are borne out.    

    It's only a few months until the next round--go Wisconsin--take back the assembly!  It will a take a while to dig our way out.  Wisconsin was a great example--

    Where and when have there ever been easy victories for labor?  

    •  Great comment. Thank you for adding in. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, JayRaye
    •  Love this comment honhog, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens

      Struggle and lose, Struggle and win.

      But if you don't struggle you'll never win.
      If every time they kick you, you take it, they will just kick you again.

      Here's what I think, without the recalls that changed the WI Senate, WI would be a right-to-work-for-less state right now. And the Milwaukee Martyrs would be rolling over in their graves.

      We owe Our Labor Martyrs better than that.

      Good on you, WI, you held the line, and you did the American labor movement proud!

      WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

      by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:15:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bless you for this diary, StellaRay. The (8+ / 0-)

    recallers worked their fingers to the bone trying to save Wisconsin and our country from the ALEC/KOCH brothers/Tea Party takeover. The detractors do not seem to grasp the seriousness of the situation and how much harm this cabal has done and can do in the future in a short period of time if there is no push back.

    DEEPEST RESPECT FOR ALL WISCONSIN RECALLERS --
       THIS NATION OWES YOU A DEBT OF GRATITUDE

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:06:39 PM PDT

    •  What rubyr says!!! hey rubyr!! Hope you are having (7+ / 0-)

      a good evening. Folks in WI have my utmost respect for what they did.

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:10:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks, ruby. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, rubyr, 3goldens, Creosote

      and cheers dear, to the idea that push back does not guarantee victory, does not guarantee that might makes right, does not guarantee ANYTHING, except THE ONE THING IT DOES guarantee.

      That you get further when you fight, even if you lose.  Howard Dean understood this, yes?  Lori compas understood this, yes?

      One of the ways we Democrats can elicit attention and voice in today's crazy media world, is to take on just these kind of risks. Not in a crazy, thoughtless way, and there was NOTHING crazy and thoughtless about the Wisconsin Recall.

      There are few who would, for all the nasty adjectives they can come up with for the GOP, deny them their boldness.

      Wisconsin Democrats and progressives were BOLD.  Which gives me an excellent opportunity to put forth one of my all time fave quotes.  From Goethe.

      "Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way.

      Boldness has genius, power and magic in it."

      It may not feel that way to many democrats today, but I believe, when the history books have their way, Wisconsin will be on record for trying to turn the tide, no matter what the eventual outcome.

  •  The unions should work as hard (5+ / 0-)

    to organize and unionize the working and middle class in Wisconsin into a general popular force as they worked on the recall. Imagine union members hitting the streets and knocking on doors to explain unionization and its benefits to people. Imagine all unions banding together to march for a real jobs bill to directly create jobs now for younger workers who are being cut out of the economy. Imagine the energy that went into the recall campaign going into organizing workers across the economy. So then people can say "I should have good benefits and a solid pension too" rather than "why should they have it when I can't." The sad truth is that too often the unions are playing defense rather than working for a common progressive vision to expand their influence. Much love and respect goes out to Wisconsin for fighting back, but now we need to get on offense. So it becomes to easy for the dividers to say "good for them is bad for you". All unions need to unite and work together to offer membership in a union to every American, to work for universal employment and opportunity, and a fair shake for everyone. We can't win without radical inclusion and solidarity.

    Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

    by play jurist on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:24:49 PM PDT

    •  Oops. Couple sentences out of order there. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye

      You get the point.

      Passive renunciation is not the whole of wisdom.

      by play jurist on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:27:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We do get the point pj. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        And what you said is pure genius.

        This is a great diary, and we need another diary to brainstorm ideas to continue forward. Great ideas like this one. Ideas that don't depend on our lazy labor leaders or entrenched DNC, but people powered ideas.

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

        by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:19:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  In other post-mortem diaries it has been (0+ / 0-)

    suggested that not only the recall itself, but the issue of unionized public sector employee benefits was problematic for voters across the ideological spectrum.  Consider the California municipal results as well.  Something important happened here, and progressives need to learn how to adapt rather than rationalizing the outcome.

    Where are we, now that we need us most?

    by Frank Knarf on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:37:53 PM PDT

    •  No, progressives need to learn how to fight back (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay

      against something the R's have been pushing for years. (See play jurist's comment above for some ideas.)

    •  Garbage, public sector unions check cronyism (0+ / 0-)

         Look at the recount and "voter fraud" lies in Racine, which is being orchestrated by a D-A who was appointed by Walker, who replaced a D-A that wasmade a judge by Walker, and whose findings are being sent to a judge who is a GOP official and donated to GOP politicians.

        THIS is why public sector unions are requirements, to make sure that there isn't a spoils system of hacks absuing the law, and checking the elected officials. This is the argument that needs to made loud and clear by progressives, because if there's one thinga lot of  angry white men don't like more than unions, it's cronyism and political corruption with two sets of rules. Public sector unions keeps this type of corruption from happening.

  •  you got it, Stella. eom (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, JayRaye, 3goldens, Creosote

    "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

    by valadon on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:49:32 PM PDT

  •  I don't regret a minute of it. eom (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, JayRaye, 3goldens, Creosote
  •  Tell you another thing that has happened (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, 3goldens

    All (even-numbered) Senate seats and almost all Assembly seats will be contested this November.  Something else that the GOP will have to splurge their out-of-state lucre on.

    Fake candidates nominated by the GOP for the recalls: 6 out of 7. Fake signatures on the recall petitions: 4 out of 1,860,283.

    by GeoffT on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 08:57:33 PM PDT

  •  You completely missed the point. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie

    The argument wasn't, "The recall strategy is a mistake!  We should just sit on our hands for three years!"; it was "The recall strategy is a mistake!  We should organize boycotts, strikes, and other mass direct action and civil disobedience, and ramp up education and horizontal community and union organization efforts."

    •  Sorry, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, 3goldens, blueoasis, Creosote

      but there was absolutely NO appetite in Wisconsin for a strike, or civil disobedience.  You do not understand the nature of the culture there.  

      Most Democratic activists have participated in boycotts plenty, including in Wisconsin, but this WAS NOT an issue that would have drawn the necessary attention through mere boycotting.  And exactly what would you suggest we have boycotted to stop Walker? If you're going to roll out a list of Koch products, spare us.  We've been there, done that.

      But, I won't miss the opportunity to say that the Wisconsin Recall put the Koch brothers on the national map, in a way they do not appreciate.  Same goes for ALEC, who before Wisconsin, was bouncing along just fine with no one the wiser.  Now they have suffered an embarrassing withdrawal of support from major companies.  It would be silly to try to argue that the Wisconsin Recall efforts did not have ALOT to do with this.

      Furthermore, I think YOU miss the point when you fail to understand that huge strikes are a thing of a past.  NO ONE can afford to strike anymore. Name me ONE significant successful strike of the last decade?

      Regan showed us the GOP response to strikes, and hell, even as that is true, he'd be considered too moderate by today's GOP.

      Folks are hanging on for dear life these days, RanDomino.  And you can not ask them to tip themselves over the precipice to strike.  They have families, and mortgages and mouths to feed.  Striking is a luxury they don't have, and they don't choose.

      •  I'm FROM here, and I'm STILL here, and I'm STAYING (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe wobblie

        Yours is the strategy of the gradual retreat.  Fuck that!
        If we couldn't win the strike, it means one thing: We aren't organized.  The unions are moribund, corrupt shells.  The DPW is a punch line.  Let them die.  We need to organize horizontally, from scratch if necessary.
        Dammit, we had 100,000 fucking people in the square!  Why the fuck didn't we storm the administration buildings and throw the fucking revolution right then and there?!
        Cowards!  You're already dead, because you forgot what it means to fight!

        •  I have no comment to this (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, Creosote

          that I wish to share.  I'll let your words stand on their own.  Perhaps some of those other "cowards" in Wisconsin will have the patience to take you on.  I don't.

          •  your previous comment: (0+ / 0-)
            the incredible gallop of the oligarchy towards destroying democracy
                 Har! Har! Har!    Bloated with blood from their recent "glorious victory",  
            those self-same carrion feasting fiends will will now set out exuberantly
            and with all their moneyed might, to do exactly that!  
            TO destroy our 'one man one vote' way of democracy, state after helpless state!
              Soon, the sight of black masks and black attire will be most common,
               and highly welcomed at all ochlocratic emeutes!
                                    "99%ers, Rise UP for America!"

            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

            by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 12:10:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly what earned me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe wobblie

              your derisive "Har! Har! Har!?" You use all the words of the proper "black masked" revolutionary.  But that won't save you from needing to come up with some solutions and substance, if you wish to be taken seriously.

              And when you move beyond the "poetry of revolution" you're going to find yourself as stymied as the rest of us making the best efforts we can.

              Which is not to say there's no use to it, but only to say that you sound silly when you ride in here like some kind of zorro, whose hands are softer and far less calloused then the Democrats and progressives in Wisconsin.

              •   - "Z" - (0+ / 0-)

                Sorry, I forgot my mark!   HAR!  HAR!  HAR!
                You're quite well spoken for a petit bourgeois benign capitalist!
                Rest most assured MY hands are still very hard and well calloused from
                a lifetime as a revolutionary worker!   (with hard karate knuckles, too)
                Take me as you wish - I care nought of your thoughts or opinions...
                I bear you no ill will, as I am a staunch 'supporter' of ALL Ladies Rights!

                ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 05:59:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Ooh-Rah! Ran Domino! n/t (0+ / 0-)

          ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

          by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 07:05:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Strikes are never a luxury, never have been. (4+ / 0-)

        Strikes come when the working people are so beat down that they have nothing to loose by striking. They are already loosing homes, & have children going hungry.

        Seems that this is what the Republicans have in mind, to bring us back to those days when striking was all that we could do.

        Hopefully, the success of the recall, wining back the WI Senate, will slow down the Republican agenda in WI, and WI will not get to that point.

        But if the attack on workers continues, than that day will come as surely as water flows down hill.

        I prefer recall, Strikes are not fun, and not something to do for adventure. Neither are they a luxury.

        But sometimes they are a terrible necessity. The unions were built on the picket line, and the day may come when we will have no choice but to go back out on the picket line.

        WI did the right thing. Recall, they held the line on union rights...for now.

        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

        by JayRaye on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:46:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What if it was a mistake, though? (0+ / 0-)

    It is not an indictment of enthusiasm, of determination, or of principle for those behind it to suggest this backfired.

    Discretion is the greater part of valor, etc.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:04:34 PM PDT

    •  But who is to decide (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, valadon, Geekesque

      if it was a mistake?  As it stands right now, the only possible evidence that it was a mistake, is that we didn't win.  And as I have said, over and over again, the possibility of loosing should not decide whether to fight.

      Really, Geekesque, I've read enough of your comments here to know you do not argue with the recall on the merits of the fight.  So how can you argue it might have been wrong because we lost?  

      And as for "discretion is the better part of valor," tell that to the republicans, LOL.  Fact is imo, the Wisconsin Recall was one of the FEW THINGS that was as bold, angry and determine as most of the republican party today.

      Maybe, perhaps, who knows, history will decide that the Wisconsin recall back fired.  We are in no position to make that judgment today, and in fact, there's plenty of points to be made about where it DID succeed, but as i said in my diary, I'm sick to poop of making those obvious points to Democrats who should know better.

      Let me put it to you this way---the question I asked in my diary to those who think the recall was a mistake, and for which I've gotten no satisfying answer to.

      WHAT IS THE PROPER PROGRESSIVE RESPONSE TO A GOVERNOR LIKE WALKER?  If you've got a better solution than those who put themselves on the line to offer up one, I'm glad to listen.

      •  just to play devil's advocate, if one is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Will in Chicago

        going to pick a high profile fight like this, there should be a better prospect of victory.  

        There are times when it's better to fight and lose than to exercise caution.  This may not have been one of those times--had they focused on the Senate the WI recalls would have been a triumph. Instead, labor took a HUGE kick in the teeth.  This was especially bad for public unions.

        "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

        by Geekesque on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 04:03:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  StellaRay, in spite of my critical comments (5+ / 0-)

    above, the Wisconsin effort was  beautiful and admirable.  We need many, many more like it all across the country. And thank you for helping me to better understand it.

    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

    by Wolf10 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 09:23:13 PM PDT

    •  Wolf, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wolf10, blueoasis

      I appreciated your input here, even if I challenged it.  I wrote this diary because I wanted to have this discussion, now, before "the recall was a mistake!" meme gathered any more traction without a challenge.

      I did not expect everyone to agree with me.  Your comments were interesting and challenging, and you honored my effort by adding in, and I thank you for that.  

      Discussion is good.  Thanks for participating.  

  •  We need some humor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay

    I have to admit that many of these young people are probably couisins of mine...Most Quebecois are related ;)

    At any rate this might be a good idea for our next movement! Embarrass the hell out of them! Oh and Wisconsinites, don't be so damned polite! ;)

    Quebec students strip in Grand Prix protest

    Clashes erupted when thousands of Quebec students stripped to protest against a proposed tuition hike in a bid to embarrass the hosts of the Formula One Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal.

    http://www.alternet.org/...


    "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

    by valadon on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 12:03:01 AM PDT

  •  You can push back but people are entitled... (0+ / 0-)

    ...to question a given strategy.  And unlike running a candidate in a regular election, a recall is a strategy, something you do out of choice.  

    Dear conservatives: If instead of "marriage equality" we call it "voluntary government registration of committed homosexuals," are you on board?

    by Rich in PA on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 04:24:13 AM PDT

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