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A look at the (un)employment outcomes of recent high school graduates (PDF) who haven't gone to college makes it easy to see why people take on so much debt to go to college.

current job situation of 2006-2011 high school grads, just 27 percent working full time
Current job situation of 2006-2011 high school graduates
(Heldrich Center for Workforce Development)

A survey by the Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University finds that just 27 percent of people who graduated high school between 2006 and 2011 and did not go to college full-time have full-time jobs, while 23 percent are working part-time and 44 percent are unemployed. By contrast (PDF), another recent survey by the Heldrich Center found 51 percent of college graduates from the same years currently working full-time and just ("just") 11 percent unemployed.

While many college graduates struggle to find work in the fields they've trained for, or even requiring a college education, they are more likely than high school graduates to find salaried jobs, and are paid more in both salaried and hourly jobs. So while employment and wage statistics for recent college graduates do look bad taken in isolation, there's a way to make them look good: compare them with similar statistics for high school graduates.

This is why college tuition rates and student loan interest rates are so important. If a college degree is decreasingly a guarantee of a middle-class job, it's increasingly a requirement for a job that makes it possible to make ends meet at all. At a bare minimum, we need improved consumer protections for student borrowers. But if the United States is to have any aspirations toward continuing to be a middle-class nation, we need a lot more than that, from truly affordable public higher education (which means increased government investment) to a real jobs bill. Meanwhile, the Beltway policy debate is dominated by Republican arguments that student loan interest rates should be doubled.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:22 PM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sigh (7+ / 0-)

    Even those with college degrees are facing a tough time not being underemployed. With my recent 5 dollar pay cut I consider myself underemployed and underpaid.

    Born in TN-05, Live in TN-06, Married in IA-02.

    by zakandsantos on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:25:07 PM PDT

  •  Not sure I agree with blanket statements (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TDDVandy, nextstep, ManhattanMan

    I think some nuance is required in this (and I speak as a parent looking at college costs).  

    First, My understanding is that the biggest problem is the "for-profit schools" that essentially sign up anyone they can solely for the purpose of getting the student loan money, without much regard to whether students progress toward a degree.  That's the first thing that needs to be controlled.  Perhaps tying availability of loans to the graduation rate of the school in some way is a start.

    Second, I hear about these astronomical amounts of debt that can only come from really expensive private universities.  I understand the desire to go to a "name" private university, but really, we need to educate people better about signing up for as much debt as you can get so that you can go to a "name" school.  In many instances -- especially when you are looking at a somewhat non-marketable degreee -- going $200,000 into debt to get that degree makes no sense.  A more affordable state school would be a far better option.  

    Third, those expensive private schools keep raising tuition because their "customers" pay it with "somebody else's" money.  They pitch it to you as you pay the same -- something called the "Estimated Family Contribution" whether you go to a school that's $20,000 a year, or $60,000 a year.  You pay the EFC, and the government, through subsidized loans, picks up the rest.  If you are going to pay, say, $15,000 a year regardless, why not go to the $60,000 school?  You'll think about debt later.  That's how many think.  We need some way to make students realize that just because those two schools are the same out of pocket now, they are vastly different in terms of the effect on your life long-term.

    Fourth, we have to stop a system that basically encourages universities to continually raise tuition, because those increases are paid for with "somebody else's" money (loans).  Perhaps we can tie the availability of student loans to tuition increases that do no more than mirror the rate of inflation?  

    I don't think the country has much stomach for a taxpayer-funded debt forgiveness here -- that will be viewed as a worker who went to a community college is picking up the tab for a student who borrowed $200,000 to go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton.  I think solutions have to be realistic.  

    •  There is much wrong in your post (7+ / 0-)

      But almost all are commonly misunderstandings.

      1.  The "name" private schools are far more expensive that "good" state schools.  Sort of...depends on how big a name, and what state school you are talking about.  Most folks who go to Harvard do not pay anything close to "sticker price" for their education.  In fact, if you are from a poor or middle class family, it's likely that Harvard is cheaper than UCLA or Michigan.

      2.  The state universities are cheaper (if in state), but they aren't cheap anymore, and they lack many of the resources of the private schools.  Less scholarships, less assistance.  With states cutting money for education, the state universities are raising tuition fast.

      3.  As a professor, I can say that students are well aware of the debt they are getting into, but what is their other option?  I mean that literally.  They can not go to college, or get massive loans.

      4.  Finally, I agree that colleges cost to damn much money see days...pretty much across the board.  But I see too many people blaming the victims rather than the policies that have forced tuition higher while raising the costs of loans.

      "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

      by Empty Vessel on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:52:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well... (4+ / 0-)

        1.  This is largely true.  The Ivies have deep pockets and can cut a big chunk off the sticker price.

        2.  Well, it depends.  Here in Texas, in-state tuition at UT-Austin is $9,794/year (out-of-state tuition is a ghastly $32,506) but for, say, UTEP, those numbers are $6,869 and $16,258, respectively.  For Texas Southern in-state tuition is $1,500.

        3.  Agreed.  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

        4.  Exactly.  Of course, people in our parents' generation don't seem to want to admit that their hunger for lower and lower taxes is the reason for it.

        28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

        by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:01:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  gotta say (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TDDVandy

          Austin's price seems good for what you get (in state), the others...they aren't even in the same league as Austin.  

          "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

          by Empty Vessel on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:04:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'll concur on that. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Empty Vessel, MGross

            The trouble, though, is that for most Texas high school graduates, getting into Austin is damn near impossible.

            A&M, Texas Tech, and UH are about $1,500 a year less than Austin.  Not really in Austin's league but especially the latter two are a good deal easier to get into.

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:14:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Good point! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TDDVandy, MGross

          I was interested in attending a public out-of-state university, but the tuition is ridiculously expensive. The only two "big" school options I have are the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma State, and even if I were to choose one of those, I'd still have to pay for campus housing.

          I guess that's why I'm going to a smaller state university. In a lot of ways, I consider myself lucky. I'd say I'm getting a decent education for what I pay. For one year, my tuition + books is about $7,000. I don't intend to apply for a job that places a major emphasis on the school you attended, so it works.

          24, male, OK-02 (current), TX-04 (born)

          by chancew on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:15:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fortunately (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chancew

            I had a full-tuition scholarship for undergrad.  Law school (top-tier private law school!) was a different matter entirely.

            There are some states that have reciprocity agreements with neighboring states for lower out-of-state tuition.

            The other problem you have in Texas is the top 10% law, which means that at some of the elite public high schools in the state (where a majority of the class will go to college) you have a whole lot of students who are certainly smart enough to go to UT or A&M but are basically locked out of going there -- so they either go out of state or to private schools.

            (Overall, though, the top 10% law is a good thing -- but it doesn't really address the problem that for many students at inner-city schools, even in-state tuition is unaffordable anyway.)

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:25:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Reciprocity agreements... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TDDVandy, Khun David

              Unfortunately, that's something Oklahoma doesn't participate in. It would help tremendously if they did!

              Off topic question, but would you encourage an undergraduate to go to law school? I'm a few years off, but I'm curious about this. I've read many news articles talking about the fact that many law graduates end up making $35K-45K, yet are $100K+ in debt. Another problem is that there's not any job opportunities available, unless you went to a highly-rated school.

              24, male, OK-02 (current), TX-04 (born)

              by chancew on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:31:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Khun David

                I would say the answer to that question is, do you really want to be a lawyer?

                If the answer is no, don't bother.  If yes, I'd say go ahead.  Jobs aren't easy to come by in this economy but who knows what the situation will be like in three or four years.

                28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:37:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Interesting thread. I appreciate all of the (0+ / 0-)

                  earnest commentary, and good info.
                  However, in the big picture, it illustrates what's wrong.
                  I'll over exaggerate to make my point.
                  No student should have any financial hinderance to the best education he/she is worthy of, academically.
                  Each student should be focused on his/her studies.
                  Period.
                  Other than that, they could be holding down an entry level job, an internship or volunteering for various ngo's, etc.
                  The decline of our civilization has been concurrent with the descent of secondary education into whoredom.

                  You can't make this stuff up.

                  by David54 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:38:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Unsolicited advice: contacts, contacts, contacts! (0+ / 0-)

            Take every opportunity that you can to network and develop contacts outside your smaller state university.  My ignorance of life outside the small pond of my alma mater crippled my career in ways that I did not realize until spending a fortune to spend a year at the local liberal-arts college that recruited regionally.

            Chances are that your school has smaller classes than the big state universities: use this to your advantage.  Take advantage of their office hours.  If your field of interest is theirs, ask them about their own research.

            Finally, if there is a club or student society that serves your field join it.  If there is no club or student society in your field, organize it and plan some relevant activities within six weeks of organization.

            "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

            by Yamaneko2 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:20:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  is lower taxes really the reason for it? (0+ / 0-)

          I have heard that a large percent of our schools have very large out of country student ratios. That is rich people in other countries or governments pay big sums to get their children a United States education. Thus the schools can charge more and get bigger. Don't know from personal experience, just college age friends stories. Does any one have any idea on this?

          Constitutions should consist only of general provisions; the reason is that they must necessarily be permanent, and that they cannot calculate for the possible change of things. Alexander Hamilton (1755-1804) Just A Real Nice Guy, thinking out loud.

          by arealniceguy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:42:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think (4+ / 0-)

            that's much of it.

            Public school tuition is going up for a lot of reasons, but the single biggest reason is that state governments are subsidizing it less and less.

            28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

            by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:45:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If anything (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Melanie in IA

            the foreign students are keeping down costs for in-state students...foreign students pay the sticker price and help subsidize in-state students.

            "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

            by Empty Vessel on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:02:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not really. (0+ / 0-)

            Out-of-state and out-of-country tuition can be used to subsidize in-state tuition.  This does make competition sharper for in-state students:  it's one thing for, say, students in Indiana to compete with the rest of the state for admission to a flagship yet quite another for them to compete with the rest of the nation (especially since their high-school education falls behind the standard in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ohio).  

            "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

            by Yamaneko2 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:25:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  What you said. (5+ / 0-)

        Also, if public college was more affordable, fewer people would be pulled in by the aggressive marketing of for-profit colleges. Obviously the government should act aggressively to rein in deceptive marketing by for-profit colleges and exercise some oversight on a range of things, but there's a market for those schools in part because other options already look too expensive.

        •  I've looked at what those school charge and they (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caj

          almost all charge more than all but the most expensive state schools, so how can this be?

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:08:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed. (0+ / 0-)

            I have a hard time buying the argument that high public tuition pushes kids into choosing to pay astronomical for-profit tuition instead.

            If the price of a Ford Focus goes up, we don't see middle-income consumers start buying Bentleys.

            "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

            by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:48:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I think you miss understood a bit (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheLawnRanger

        I do consider UCLA to be a name school.  It Is top 10 In the US News rankings.  If you lIve In southern CalifornIa,  maybe the better option is Cal Irvine or Cal Fullerton, even living at home if you are in driving distance.  Instead, we have a culture that tells students they must go to the "best" school they get  in to, and spend an additional fortune to live in a dorm regardless of the amount of debt they have to incur.

         UCLA and USC love that of course.  But it is not so great for students.

        •  In some cases, yes. (0+ / 0-)

          If you want to work on Wall Street, by all means, pay the big bucks for college.  (But I hear that not everybody can work on Wall Street.)

          On the other hand, for most careers where your degree is from isn't a particularly big deal.

          28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

          by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:29:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm also disturbed by (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dilutedviking

        the blithe assertion that bright students should "settle" in their choice of a college, which would effectively make the top private colleges once again the country clubs of the wealthy. Yes yes, I know people can be very successful going to a "lesser" school, but is it really a good direction to have colleges be stratified socio-economically? Isn't Tagg Romney, for instance, going to have a leg up in his financial investment business because of the contacts he made at Harvard (to say nothing of the contact list of his father's donors and the $10 million his father sunk into his business)?

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

        by anastasia p on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:54:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yet, your assertion already proves that (0+ / 0-)

          that the top private institutions are already country clubs for the wealthy.  The lowly state school that I attended routinely ranks above Harvard in my chosen career field.  

        •  I am disturbed by this remark. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sethtriggs
          Yes yes, I know people can be very successful going to a "lesser" school, but is it really a good direction to have colleges be stratified socio-economically?
          Public schools are not "lesser" schools, and cheaper schools are not "lesser" schools.  

          To concede that maybe we can still be successful by going to a "lesser" school is, in my opinion, a fairly snooty point of view.  Of course people will still be successful graduating from NIU instead of Northwestern---why wouldn't they?  Do elite schools teach different versions of calculus or different laws of physics?  Do they have an extra Shakespeare that the public schools don't know about?

          I'm also disturbed by the blithe assertion that bright students should "settle" in their choice of a college, which would effectively make the top private colleges once again the country clubs of the wealthy.
          As a professor at a public university, I see nothing wrong with poor students "settling" for a college that isn't insanely priced.

          If some private college wants to charge a whopping $50,000/year tuition and invent themselves as a playground for the rich, let them.  If they want to be less like an institution of higher learning and more like a yacht club, that's their prerogative.  If poor people can't afford a snooty college, it's no big loss:  the snooty college is just a designer label, and not a substantially better education.

          "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

          by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:36:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I have the opposite experience (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs
        3.  As a professor, I can say that students are well aware of the debt they are getting into, ...
        I am also a professor, and when I advise undergraduates I ask about their loans.  Many have no idea how much they borrowed, and cannot guess even within a factor of two.

        I diaried about this phenomenon recently, after an NPR story about it---apparently it's a fairly common phenomenon.

        ...but what is their other option?  I mean that literally.  They can not go to college, or get massive loans.
        This might depend upon the state, and what you mean by "massive."  Here in NY, people certainly have the option of going to college without getting massive loans, if you simply go to a public university (or really save money by starting out at a community college.)  You will still end up taking out a loan, but with work and making affordable choices the debt will be between 10K and 20K, about what people borrow for a car.

        "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

        by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:22:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "Realism" is determined by (4+ / 0-)

      political environment. If you never push to change the politics while Republicans consistently do, "realism" gets consistently more right-wing.

      Fourth, we have to stop a system that basically encourages universities to continually raise tuition, because those increases are paid for with "somebody else's" money (loans).  Perhaps we can tie the availability of student loans to tuition increases that do no more than mirror the rate of inflation?  
      Public college and university tuition is rising overwhelmingly because per-student government investment in public higher education is declining. If a state allocates the same amount of funding for higher ed as it did 10 or 20 years ago, but there are a significant number more students, tuition goes up.

      If a college education is basically a requirement for full-time employment at non-poverty wages, shouldn't the government be investing in that? That's not some benefit to individuals, it gets directly at the question of whether the United States is going to become a low-wage, unskilled-labor economy.

    •  Instead of forgiveness, why not bankruptcy? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheLawnRanger, dilutedviking

      Student loans can only be discharged upon death or 100% disability.  Why not let student loans be discharged in bankruptcy court, like any other sort of debt?

      "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

      by Yamaneko2 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:12:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because everybody... (0+ / 0-)

        ...would declare bankruptcy.

        Go to college at age 18.
        Go to grad school at age 22.
        Declare bankruptcy at age 25.

        At age 32, your record is clean, you are ready to get married and settle down, and I have paid for your Art History degree.

        Hell no!

        •  Well then (0+ / 0-)

          Why wouldn't everybody just declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt? Why not get rid of bankruptcy altogether?

          Before they made it impossible to discharge student debt in bankruptcy, did everybody declare bankruptcy to get rid of their student debt? No. I never even heard of such a thing.

          What purpose does it serve society to make unemployed holders of student debt permanently unemployable because of their debt level?

          •  Because then effectively you'd get rid of the (0+ / 0-)

            student loan program. It would be bankrupt within a couple years. I don't think that's a solution. It would make things harder for students.

            Plus, I don't think the debt situation today is that onerous, if only the gov't subbed up to $20-25k for undergrads. With the IBR program, people can handle that.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:11:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe not (0+ / 0-)

              What we could do is return bankruptcy protection, but put in specific measures to prevent the abuses that might take the system down.

              For example, the original motivation for removing bankruptcy protection was the risk of people taking huge loans for professional-school, e.g. medical school, and then dropping it in bankruptcy.  We didn't need to take away everyone's bankruptcy protections to stop this specific type of fraud; we could have targeted that problem by creating a policy of revoking professional licenses as a condition of discharging debt.

              "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

              by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:00:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bankruptcy could be allowed after a number (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Caj

                of years, but again, it would hurt the program. I think low rates is the way to go.

                I still think IBR addresses the problems. For the people who can't find decent paying jobs, IBR would cut them a big break.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:20:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                  I agree that IBR already provides a lot of the relief that we expect from bankruptcy.

                  One major issue, though is the effect lending.  The possibility of bankruptcy prevents lenders from handing out money too gleefully, or from overselling debt or extending predatory loans.  

                  Does the IBR program have this effect?  Does it ultimately cause a loss for a private lender who extends a kid a $200,000 loan?

                  "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

                  by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:48:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, IBR is only for direct subbed loans (0+ / 0-)

                    So, in the future, it will only be for loans sourced through the gov't. For now, however, the gov't buys up private loans and converts them to Ford loans. I'm guessing that this will only continue for another 10-15 years until all subbed loans are governmental.

                    At that point, they may institute bankruptcy for private loans. It would make sense, however, since a lot of private practices hold bankruptcy against potential employees, so there would be a risk against committing bankruptcy. It would help people who want out of the profession, however. It would also hurt Law and Business schools. A bit more concerned with Law schools losing poor students than I am Business schools losing candidates.

                    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                    by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:22:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Nowadays, yes. (0+ / 0-)

          Perhaps if they had thought about the fact that very few people declared bankruptcy on their student loans WHEN THEY COULD, they wouldn't have put that bogus prohibition in place.

          Now that they've saddled 90% of their graduates with unmanageable debt, well. That's just the way the capitalist class wants it. Next best thing to a slave class is a class of slaves to debt that will be serviced but never eliminated.

          "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:42:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  We need to address COST. (0+ / 0-)

      Colleges have too many Assistant Deans, the dorms are too lavish, the stadiums are too big, and the textbooks are revised far too often.

      The textbooks are also overpriced.

      To learn many of the humanities (such as History and Literature) you need a Professor, a stack of books, and a room with 30 chairs. There is no way that this costs $40,000/year!

      (If they were paying the Professor $40k x 30 = $1.2 million, maybe. But they ain't.)

      We need to make colleges spend less. Nothing good will happen until we do.

      •  Colleges costs over the last decades are rising (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        slower than inflation. College costs are in check. 25 years ago, administration was less than 1% of college costs nationally. Today it's still less than 1%.

        Colleges are spending much less than what is good for America. We're falling behind.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:13:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  then why is tuition going up double digits? n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hmi

          all morals are relative, but some are more relative than others.

          by happymisanthropy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:41:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For the same reason that CEO pay far outstrips (0+ / 0-)

            worker pay - the executives are pulling in mother lodes of cash and they're not willing to give it up.

            I throw up in my mouth a little bit every time I get an e-mail from Mark Yudof.

            "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

            by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:43:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Budget cuts (0+ / 0-)

            That's the long and short of it. Little state funding.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 07:36:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Higher education is classified as discretionary (0+ / 0-)

            spending in most states, which makes it the cow that is milked first during spending cuts.

          •  For public schools, cuts in subsidies (3+ / 0-)

            The overall cost is growing predictably, but the portion you have to pay is exploding---because the portion the state pays is shrinking.

            For private schools, tuition is apparently exploding, but that's the sticker price for wealthy people.  Private schools often charge deeply discounted tuition based on financial need.

            While that sounds noble and Robin-Hoodly, I think it obscures the cost of college and makes it harder for people to make informed decisions.  I also think it promotes a belief in high college costs that can negatively impact public policy:  state governments, for example, can point at $40K tuition rates at private schools and argue that we don't need to keep SUNY tuition at a measly $8000.

            "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

            by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:06:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  one percent? (0+ / 0-)

          At the 2nd-to-last school I taught at, which was private, of each 100 of tuition..

          (approximately) 20 went to scholarships, leaving 80
          20 went to university-level administration, leaving 60
          20 went to college-level administration, leaving 40
          20 went to department-level administration, leaving 20
          20 went to line faculty, gypsies, and TA's

          And of course the students are paying separately for housing, campus center fees, and so on.  But the university-level costs did include things like electricity, not just staff.

          The administrative bloat was just amazing, especially at the college level.

          Then I went to a state school, and it was just huge state budget cuts every year.  Plenty of bloat there too - everywhere except the faculty.

          We are all 11-dimensional now.

          by flight2q on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 11:21:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree with your point #4 (2+ / 0-)

      Colleges are not encouraged to continually raise tuition. They have to continually raise tuition. Why? Because of dropping public investment.

      This is easy to prove. Expenditures are rising at a level below the rise of inflation. This is occurring at the same time that schools are building out high tech spaces and classrooms, the same time that the cost of research is increasing, while health care for workers and pensions are rising through the roof. And yet expenditures are down.

      In real money, Cal Berkeley was subsidized more than $16k per student over 20 years ago. It's down to $9k now. The budget rose from 1.227B to 1.65B in that period.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:06:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I didn't go to an expensive private school. (0+ / 0-)

      When I graduated from undergrad, I was $40,000 in debt. That has now expanded with my impending graduation from graduate school to $150,000. And I went to a state land-grant university.

      "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:39:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Borrowing money for graduate school? (0+ / 0-)

        Do you mean professional school, i.e. law, dental or medical school?

        It is not customary to pay $150000 for a master's degree, and it is not customary to pay anything for a Ph.D.

        "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

        by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:45:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Damned if you do and damned if you don't (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheLawnRanger, dilutedviking

    What is a young American to do?

    The system is rigged to squeeze the last penny from those who go to college and those who don't.

    It seems to be mostly an American problem;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    We used to graduate a higher percentage of people from college that other countries, now we are #12 and falling;

    http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/...

    And those who do graduate have piles of debt;

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:39:32 PM PDT

  •  Why not (4+ / 0-)

    instead of depending on grants and loans, why not just subsidize universities to the point that tuition is affordable for the average American family?

    My dad took out student loans to finance his college education -- but his tuition was something like $1,600 a year (at a private college!)  And these days, working your way through college is completely out of the question.  You're either taking out student loans or you're not going to college.

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:51:27 PM PDT

    •  Exactly. That is my recurring point. (6+ / 0-)

      I mean, obviously I recognize that it's not going to be passed anytime soon, but yeah, I think any conversation about college tuition or student debt has to talk about affordability in terms of government investment, not in terms of, like, colleges should put all their classes online to be taught by adjuncts making $1,500 to teach 100 online students, or whatever the Republican higher ed model is.

    •  Louisiana does that already (0+ / 0-)

      if you have a certain ACT score, and it does not have to be all that high, you can go to any state school, including LSU, tuition free.  It Is called the TOPS program, named for oil man Pat Taylor who founded it and provided the seed money.

    •  Why is working your way through college (0+ / 0-)

      out of the question?

      Half my students work full-time (I don't think this is ideal) but the same students could do it working just 10 hours a week during the school year.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:15:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  because (2+ / 0-)

        you make far, far less at minimum wage or a little above that then you pay in tuition + living expenses.

        I actually worked 20-40 hours/week during college in the late 90's/early 2000's....and it was basically spending money only that didn't make a dent in my tuition+expenses.

        I went to a state school, and lived with 3 roommates.

        •  It depends on your state. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caj, sethtriggs

          Tuition nationwide average is $7,500.

          Even at $10 an hour you should earn more than that with 4 months of 30 hour weeks in summer, and 8 months of 10 hour weeks.

          30 x 10 hours x 10 = 3000
          20 x 30 hours x 10 = 6000

          Minus SS. If you do work study, there is no SS. So the total income is 9000. If you live at home, you don't need loans, but if you're poor and want to live at school, you can get Pell Grants and Subbed Direct loans. For the average American, public education is still affordable. For people living in Cali, Penn and Michigan (and a few others) it is not.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 07:41:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And jeopardydd's case is not my case (0+ / 0-)

        where I was already a parent and had other responsibilities. Not to mention that when I was in undergrad, the school DID NOT PERMIT part-time students. You HAD to be full-time.

        "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:46:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't see why that prohibits working. (0+ / 0-)
          Not to mention that when I was in undergrad, the school DID NOT PERMIT part-time students. You HAD to be full-time.
          I was a full-time student throughout college, and I still worked part-time in order to pay for living expenses.

          Full-time is just a designation for the number of credit hours you must be taking.  It doesn't mean that you must spend 100% of your time not working.

          "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

          by Caj on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:09:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You try going to school full-time (0+ / 0-)

            and working full-time, which is what it takes to pay expenses these days. I wonder when you were in college - it isn't like that any more.

            "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

            by Killer of Sacred Cows on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is a false dichotomy (0+ / 0-)

              You don't have to earn enough to pay all of your expenses, just enough so that your loan is manageable.

              For example, I went to school full time (in fact I overloaded every semester,)  I worked part-time on campus during the year, and worked as many hours as I could over the summer.  The money I earned covered my living expenses, and I reserved financial aid for covering tuition.

              There is nothing about being a "full time student" that prohibits you from working.

              "It's a shame that most things aren't pies. More things should be pies." --jbou

              by Caj on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 12:38:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I work full-time and go to grad school part time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs

        and there's no way I could do it without student loans. I shudder to think what I'll owe by the time I'm done, since I've had to take out loans from half way through my undergrad years. To only work 10 hours a week during the school year and not take out loans, you'd have to have someone else (parents, grants) subsidizing you, and my parents made too much for me to get grants but not enough to pay for my schooling.

  •  Since the benefits of educating accrue (3+ / 0-)

    mainly to the community as a whole, the community should pay. Of course it is possible to transfer information without the use of money to mediate the transaction, but when money is commonly used, it should be available as needed.  
    The idea that currency is scarce is an antiquated notion that dates back to when money was fabricated out of precious metals whose extraction, refining and processing was laborious and time consuming.  When money is made out of paper or electronic blips, there's no reason to levy a charge for its use.
    Imagine if we still restricted access to reading and writing skills!
    There really is little difference between monetary script and writing.  Each is a physical manifestation of a figment of the imagination, something we invent that has value for other people.

    "In the name of the nation, and of the dollar and of the rule of law, you and your children shall sacrifice for the good of all." Rmoney prayer

    by hannah on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:03:41 PM PDT

  •  They are screwed in another way (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TDDVandy, chancew, dilutedviking

    Suze Orman, pretty much every week, has to point out to at least one caller that student loans aren't dischargable in bankruptcy, unlike consumer debt.

    It's about time I changed my signature.

    by Khun David on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:23:19 PM PDT

    •  Right (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David, dilutedviking

      And this actually contributes to the problem.  Student loans are stuck with you forever, the lender knows they're not going to have to write off the loan, so there's no disincentive for lenders to deny the loan, even if the student's never going to be able to pay it off.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:27:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So true! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David, dilutedviking

      I recently read a news article that said that won't be changing anytime soon, yet the big banks get billions in bailout money.

      Ridiculous.

      24, male, OK-02 (current), TX-04 (born)

      by chancew on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:34:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In bankruptcy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dilutedviking

        a lot, if not all, of your debts are discharged, at the cost of your credit ratings.

        Supposedly, since knowledge is an intangible asset, it cannot be taken away, like your car or your home; therefore, student loans, which helped you provide skills and evidence that you obtained those skills (your degree), cannot be discharged.

        However, HR departments look at your credit ratings as well as your resume to see if you are a 'good' candidate.  Another asset, your credit, is taken away with bankruptcy or with insurmountable debt, and that asset is tangible.  

        So, it seems to me that either student loan companies cannot justify not being able to discharge student loan debt, or that employers cannot be allowed to look at your credit to justify not hiring you as an employee.

        It's about time I changed my signature.

        by Khun David on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:06:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I worked at Peace Corps HQ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave

    and part of my job was to track data regarding the delivery process from Peace Corps applicant to nominee to volunteer, including historical data.  The data were clear that the number of applicants to Peace Corps increase during recessions, relative to the number of volunteers that Peace Corps is able to place in the same period of time.

    (you can defer student loan payments, and up to 20% of your Stafford loans can be discharged after successful completion of your service).

    It's about time I changed my signature.

    by Khun David on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:30:46 PM PDT

  •  What I see this meaning is that shopping for the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coffeetalk, TDDVandy, Khun David

    best quality education fit is what's important. Maybe staying at home longer, getting a part time job if possible and continuing your education cost effectively as can be done. For example doing the first two years at a junior college and getting high grades so you can earn scholarships to keep loan costs down. Also looking for assistance programs on the internet.

    Figuring out how to get the best education for your resources is now part of the education process.

    Constitutions should consist only of general provisions; the reason is that they must necessarily be permanent, and that they cannot calculate for the possible change of things. Alexander Hamilton (1755-1804) Just A Real Nice Guy, thinking out loud.

    by arealniceguy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:35:43 PM PDT

    •  Community colleges are underrated (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HawkWife, Khun David

      But, they're also largely underfunded, so there are limited spots... which is where the for-profit vultures come in.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:43:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm an adjunct professor at 2 community colleges (4+ / 0-)

        in NJ & they are, indeed, underrated. For a reasonable tuition, you can get a degree or certificate in a field within 2 years & get a job. If you want a more advanced degree, you can use the CC as a springboard for doing that. When I see ads for the for profit rip off institutions on TV, I feel like screaming "Save your money & go to community college! It's cheaper & you'll have an actual degree/certificate!"

        A village can not reorganize village life to suit the village idiot.

        by METAL TREK on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:44:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My partner's nephew (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Samulayo, mattc129

      will be graduating high school next year, and we are both recommending to him to go to the local community college so he can get his core requirements done, and then after a year or two transfer to a college or university to get the degree he wants.

      It's about time I changed my signature.

      by Khun David on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:11:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But then other issues arise. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sethtriggs

      You delay college, you get married, squeeze out a couple of kids, and then you have to have a job. When you look at going back, the price just keeps going up and up and before you know it, you are in your 30s thinking it's too late, it's hopeless, it sucks to be just rich enough to keep the lights on, but not poor enough to qualify for any kind of assistance.

      Go get a loan. If you have a family --they count your car and home like you are Howard Hughs or something.

      It's dumb! They expect you --like a hospital, to dump everything you ever worked for, however humble in order to prove you are poor enough to receive assistance OR take out high interest loans that will be the death of a family financially.

      You might as well be buying a second house. And for what? An entry level position when you finally get that BA in your 40s?

  •  Back to the original subject (0+ / 0-)

    Are these stats for high school graduates only or do they include people who got a GED?  Stats often treat them the same but employers do not.

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:00:17 PM PDT

  •  And what about those who (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows, JesseCW

    either can't or don't want to spend another 2 or 4 years in school? What can we do to help them at least make enough money to live on and help support a family? Or are we just going to let them become part of the permanent underclass because they're "too stupid" to help?

    Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

    by Cali Scribe on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:11:34 PM PDT

    •  That's what a lot of this rhetoric regarding the (5+ / 0-)

      "everyone needs a degree' crowd misses. If everyone gets a degree, we'll still need the millions of jobs that you don't actually need one, which is counterproductive and a waste of time, energy and money for those people who will never attain the professional position that a bachelor degree would warrant. The fact that we've made a degree a pre requisite for millions of jobs that don't need one, and where further professional certifications are warranted anyways to seperate those who have the knowledge base and do not, is the true problem.

      •  Good point! (4+ / 0-)

        Bring back trade schools. Or at least fully fund them as well as HS vo-tech programs. We still need welders, mechanics, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, repairmen, etc. And we have lots of young people who would LOVE to work in those fields.

        A village can not reorganize village life to suit the village idiot.

        by METAL TREK on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:04:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's why the school district that I used to work (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Irixsh, JesseCW

        for is now funneling a lot of students into technical schools; They don't have the need, desire, or money to go get a four year degree, but two years in a tech school is enough to put them in a semi-skilled job that they're interested in. Auto mechanics, electricians, plumbers, horticulturists, etc have to come from somewhere.

        •   (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sethtriggs

          Anyone who believes that electricians and plumbers are semi-skilled workers is an elitist.   These occupations require one serve a lengthy apprenticeship (which is exactly how we used to train lawyers, doctors, and engineers).  Electricians and plumbers are licensed by the state.  Most college graduates are not required to pass a licensing exam in order to practice their chosen profession.  

          Let's be honest, most professional occupations do not require one to use much beyond what one learns in one's sophomore year in college.   I have been a practicing computer scientist and software engineer for over thirty years.  Unlike many of my peers, I actually hold undergraduate and graduate degrees in computer science.  I work on the most technically demanding problems that are found in the world of enterprise-level systems. Many of the problems that I solve involve reverse engineering.  Yet, I rarely use anything that I learned above my sophomore year in college.

          The first two years of college are dedicated to building the fundamental skills that are used in a profession.  Formal education beyond this point is a waste of money for people who are not planning to become academics.  

          Academics, while good at teaching the academic fundamentals that are used in a professional, fail miserably when it comes to teaching the practical side of a profession because few have ever been practitioners.  We need far more practitioners than we do academics. Most students would be better served by a system that required one to serve an apprenticeship after completing two years of fundamental skills coursework.  

          •  "profession," not "professional" (0+ / 0-)
          •  I certainly agree that (0+ / 0-)

            professional electricians and plumbers are more than semi-skilled, but that is the classification given to the professions (so far as I've ever seen). I suspect that the classification system is based on the entry level barrier to enter the career field, which is substantially lower for a plumber than, say, a doctor or IT security specialist, as well as the amount of continuing education required to stay current in the field.

          •  What is this academic thing you'tr talking about? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs

            Academics are about much more than the pre-professiona career-training you're referring to.

            I wish people would recognize the amount of interdisciplinary learning and discussion that goes into innovation, without blithely dismissing the central part of any university.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:08:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most people cannot afford education for (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sethtriggs

              education's sake.  Those who have spent their entire careers in academia are incapable of offering the type of educational experience that leads to the development of long-lived "real world" professional skills.  Academics are trained to produce more academics.  However, most people who attend college are not preparing to work in academia--they are attending college to prepare for a profession!  

      •  They're just catering to their base. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs

        There's a hell of a lot of public school teachers and retired public school teachers at this site.

        The people who spend their time telling kids that "You'd better go to college unless you want to wind up flipping burgers!!!"

        As if busting your ass in a kitchen all day was something to be ashamed of.

        Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

        by JesseCW on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:39:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My father got called racist and classist (3+ / 0-)

      for pointing out that not only do we need teachers and lawyers and doctors, but also police, firemen, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and auto mechanics.

      "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:49:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Trust me, this happens to a lot of Vets (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sethtriggs

      And I have learned--NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK.

      sigh

      There I said it.

      In fact, I have had some people say that the GI Bill is socialism or welfare--they seem totally ignorant of the fact, that you pay into it, from every paycheck for a year, and have to accomplish certain career goals in the military just to qualify to use what you invested in.

      Then you get out and go to college [this was before Tuition Assistance] and the VA fucks with you the entire time while you try to use the GI Bill. Because if you quite, the college keeps the VA money and you have to pay the VA back--so it's a win win for everyone but you.

  •  Medicare for Sole Proprietors Would Explode (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows, JesseCW

    the small % of HS grad self employeds. People all the way to rock bottom of the economic ladder do black market or moonlighting work.

    It's criminal to mainstream the notion that you need a college degree to earn a living.

    Well actually it's the historic norm. Conservatives are giving us our country back.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:13:28 PM PDT

  •  Everyone is screwed. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    It's a miracle that any of us has the will to get out of bed anymore when the world is so doomed.

  •  Every DKos diary on student loans needs an ** (0+ / 0-)

    that tells people to look up the IBR program for student loans. It's a damn good program.

    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

    by upstate NY on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:17:58 PM PDT

    •  sort of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows, JesseCW

      for the private loans, all that does is add to the principle, which means that the compound inters is working against you and can cripple you financially for life if you don't start making enough money soon enough.

      •  ??? (0+ / 0-)

        How does it add to the principal? All loans under IBR are forgiven after 10 or 20 years.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 07:42:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  incorrect (0+ / 0-)

          only the government ones are. private loans are not forgiven at all.

          it's also 20 years rather than 10 if you are not working for a non-profit or teaching

          finally, the loan forgiveness counts as income for tax purposes when you get it. that means that if the loans are ballooning because of the added principle (yes, it's added on during the IBR), you can get hit with a giant tax bill.

          oh, and that's all if the government actually stays true to its word and keeps the forgiveness by the time you get it.

    •  IBR doesn't apply to private lenders. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JesseCW

      They can fuck you over for as long as they want and you have no recourse.

      "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:50:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is untrue. (0+ / 0-)

        My loans with private lenders were bought by the Gov't. They are gov't loans now.

        There is a lot of misinformation about the IBR program, and now enough people know about it.

        I think these diaries do a disservice by not mentioning it.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 07:43:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That only works if your loans were bought (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe wobblie

          by the government.

          Many of us have private loans that were not. Therefore, IBR DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM.

          You do a disservice to the people you are recommending it to by not realizing this.

          "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 10:45:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My private loans were BOUGHT by the gov't (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe wobblie, sethtriggs

            WHEN I applied for the IBR program.  The gov't BUYS private loans when you apply for them to do so.

            How is it a disservice to inform people about IBR? That makes absolutely no sense.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 11:45:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is when you mislead them. (0+ / 0-)

              Not all private loans get bought by the government when you apply for IBR. Don't I wish!

              http://www.ibrinfo.org/..._

              I quote:

              You can NOT consolidate private, non-federal loans into the Direct Loan program. Private loans are not eligible for IBR or Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF).

              "You're on your own" within the context of a society IS sociopathic. - kovie

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 12:14:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sigh. Oh for heaven's sake. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm talking about private subbed loans and PLUS loans. My God, I'm talking about loans that are NOT sourced through the gov't directly. I got mine at a Savings Bank in Connecticut and at Mellon Bank in PA. They were subbed and PLUS, and yes they were consolidated into the Ford program and went under IBR. The private bank loans that are not subbed are not eligible.

                Again, why would this be misleading? If I gave the absolute worst info possible, how is it a disservice to inform someone of a program that will give great terms for at least a portion of their loans (the subbed portion)?

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 06:51:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I couldn't disagree more, find a trade, find a (4+ / 0-)

    niche, colleges have become little more than diploma mills that prepare you very little for what you'll face in your day to day work life in most fields (unless you further yourself with an advanced degree). In reality, most of these folks would be better off in a trade school as the trades are the jobs that can never be outsourced. Working in a field of highly educated professionals, I'm shocked at the lack of preparation these folks are leaving school with their degrees in my field. And I'm not that far removed and remember feeling the same way, that I didn't have a clue until I independantly researched my career choice, put in the outside work to further myself. I can think of better uses for a hundred grand.

  •  I decided that the reason Bush was totally (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows, flight2q

    indifferent to the employment rate was that he wanted to make sure the "volunteer army" wouldn't suffer for new recruits as he waged war.

    Regardless of who's in office, I think this is an important question.

    I think our wars and overseas adventures are a distraction (at least) from a robust interest in job growth in our country.
    We need to get out of these wars so we can focus on gainful employment for our citizens.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:20:51 PM PDT

  •  Does this point to another problem? (4+ / 0-)

    We no longer have an economy where the unskilled and semi-skilled can make a living.  Sending everyone to college isn't really the answer.   My grandfather supported a wife and five children on an 8th grade education and a good (union) railroad job.  Those jobs are gone, sacrificed to outsourcing and automation, and those productivity gains went to the already well off.

    I also think harping the fact that college graduates do so much better has increased the resentment of the "elite" in this country and driven a wedge between what remains of the working class and the liberal types (like me) who really want to be on their side.

    I wish we could work toward a society where you didn't have to enter the credentialing competition to live a decent life in the richest country in the world.

    •  We no longer have a political party (0+ / 0-)

      with any interest in enabling the unskilled and semi-skilled to collectively bargain.

      2010-2012 showed that we also no longer have a political party with any genuine interest in maintaining the minimum wage at a humane rate.

      Outsourcing and automation are not the problem.  Wages for commercial drivers, for example, have declined over the last 30 years.

      There's still plenty of demand.  But thanks to deregulation and a Federal Government that will not set a minimum wage or overtime provisions for interstate drivers and NAFTA, wages are falling.

      This isn't about some sort of "natural result of progress".  It's about intent.

      So far, the white collar middle class which the modern Democratic Party relies on for donations has been willing to throw "unskilled workers" (these do not exist) under the bus every time Republicans have asked in the last 30 years.

      That's where the resentment comes from.  It's rooted in reality.  

      Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

      by JesseCW on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:47:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why do we subsidize corn production (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HudsonValleyMark, sethtriggs

    such that we have a huge obesity and diabetes problem, but cannot subsidize education of which we have a huge deficit?

    The universe may have a meaning and a purpose, but it may just specifically not include you.

    by Anne Elk on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 11:04:58 PM PDT

  •  Great Topic (0+ / 0-)

    One of the things this study and personal experience suggests to me is the fact that high schools (and students, along with their parents) are failing, if high school grads need college to be hired for what used to be considered very basic jobs, which is unfortunately the case.

    I taught freshman English and Holocaust studies at college during an previous life, and also taught high school English Lit and European history, (which automatically gives y'all free hand to justifiably pick on any typos in my posts, by the way), and I can assure you that much of the reason young people need college in order to find jobs is due to their need for remedial learning.  Remedial in this case means learning skills that weren't taught, and should have been, in high school, if not long before that.  

    In other words, high schools aren't teaching basic skills like, say, reading.  What this means is that students today often require spending the first year or two of college just learning or relearning what should have been taught them -- and once was taught -- at high schools.  When a college freshman has difficulty reading a cereal box, much less a course syllabus, and requires several semesters and several thousands of dollars in loans to attain what once would have been considered a fourth-grade reading comprehension level, the problem has obvious roots in the failure of earlier education efforts.  

    Thus students end up borrowing exorbitant amounts of money to pay to learn what they once learned at no expense, except for the property taxes their parents and neighbors paid to keep high schools open.

    We're faced with a systemic education problem that won't be fixed adequately by throwing mere money at college grant programs, nor by offering more money at lower interest rates to college students.  Those solutions are akin to offering cans of Fix-A-Flat to car buyers who drive off the showroom floor with four flats, rather than inflating the tires prior to selling the car.  

           

    •  You tell exactly the same story from friends who (0+ / 0-)

      teach.

      The other is, that colleges refuse to count military technical training. I had Algebra and Trig in the military among other forms of training for a highly technical job. The college admins acted as if, being a military vet, I would barely be able to wipe my own ass, much less know anything of value. So all that bullshit about getting college credit for your training in the military is exactly that,  unless you want to be a Phoenix.

      •  I went to state school that gave me credit (0+ / 0-)

        I CLEPed the math and technical courses that I took while serving in the military. Granted, that is not the same thing as receiving direct credit, but it was easier than spending a couple of semesters covering material that I covered in the military.

  •  We are attaining third world status (0+ / 0-)

    We are becoming a third world nation, and I don't see any way out of it.  Education is the only hope, and the option is being foreclosed quickly.  Less education means less critical thinking ability and less critical thinking ability means easy propaganda manipulation.  The HCA is only the latest example when Americans liked the contents but oppose the act.  Autocrats live for the day when democracy is effectively destroyed--and it's coming. . .

    Old Hippies Never Give Up!

    by ravenrdr on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:44:32 AM PDT

  •  What we fucking need is living wages (2+ / 0-)

    for people doing work that doesn't require a fucking degree.

    We outnumber, and are likely to continue to outnumber, workers with degrees two to one.

    Oh, and we're actually suffering.  Not just whining about how student loan rates mean putting off the next trip to Europe, but suffering.

    When you want to know why so many working class people do not vote for the candidates you support, you should understand that "making college more affordable" being higher on your list of priorities than an increase in the minimum wage is one of the reasons.

    It is a shame that workers no longer have a party in this country.

    Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

    by JesseCW on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:36:58 AM PDT

  •  IF we maintain manufacturing, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    there are a host of jobs that don't require a four year degree.  MI is experiencing a huge labor shortage in welders and CNC operators.    Thanks to offshoring, they don't pay what they use to - but they do pay.    I blame Reagan and Clinton for the mess we are in.

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 03:13:29 AM PDT

  •  Curious table (0+ / 0-)

    Why does it divide whites from blacks and hispanics for the most recent data?

    Children have imaginary friends, adults have god.

    by soros on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:10:07 AM PDT

  •  With regard to this, this country is so hopeless (0+ / 0-)

    and sad.

  •  How so? (0+ / 0-)

    When I graduated high school my Student Loan Interest rates were 8.25%.  That was in 1991.

    •  I've been paying 7% now for 20 years (0+ / 0-)

      I suppose I could have taken out a loan to pay them off totally but am a bit concerned I'd lose out on IBR program

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:10:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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