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I promised you very few words, and I'm going to pay off on that.  Look, there are people here who do not support Obama, or feel quite comfortable saying they will vote for him, but no more.  They will not work for him, they will not donate to him.  They will plug their noses and vote for him, and they've made clear, that's the best we can expect from them.

I say, so be it.  I say let those people be, and stop trying to discuss or argue with them.  They are entitled to their opinions and their passions.  It's been going on here since Obama laid his hand on the Bible and we're all plenty familiar with the arguments, both ways.

Now, we're barely six months outside the election.  Now we've got to commit despite our disappointments or choose not to.  For those who choose not to, I say, fine.  I no longer have any interest in convincing you to feel differently.  And, for the rest of us I say, let us not waste one more minute, one more pie, or one more battle over this.  

This is supposed to be a site for electing more and better Democrats. Let that start with the president, who I think deserves that.  If you think he doesn't, then please, allow me to ignore you for now.

I want, I need, Obama to win this thing.  And I want, I need, his down ticket to win. It's really that simple.  You either agree that Obama and his down ticket needs to win, or you don't.

And if you don't, well that's your right.  But I don't want to have to answer to you right now.  And I don't want to see this site bogged down with that argument.  It's a very important election folks, lets not agree to petty splintering.  Ok, I'm done.  Without going beneath the fold.  

Short, and I'm sure not so sweet for some.

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Comment Preferences

  •  "petty splintering" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stevej, Zinman, chipmo

    Is that the current euphemism for killing innocent men, women and children?  "Petty splintering"?  Is that what they now call allowing war criminals to walk free, without investigation or prosecution?  'Petty splintering"?  Is that the new name for refusing to go after the Wall Street fat cats who crashed our economy?

    Ignore us all you want.  It's your right.  I do hope, though, that one day you'll take the blinders off.  That you'll see that those innocents who die in drone strikes and errant bombing runs are human beings, not just statistics in a foreign nation with nothing to do with you.  And that allowing war criminals to get away with their crimes will lead to those crimes being committed again, against whoever a future leader deems an "enemy".  And that bailing out the fat cats and not pursuing justice against them will lead to another economic meltdown...one we may not recover from.

    But hey, no sense in engaging in "petty splintering", right?

    •  I will stick to the words in my diary. (17+ / 0-)

      I have made my choice, which is not to say I don't understand or reject what you're saying.  Just to say, I've chosen my priorities.  Which are to get Obama and his down ticket re-elected.  I make no apologies for this.

      And while you think it is I who is wearing "the blinders" I submit to you, that you too are wearing a set of your own.

      But I'm not going to argue it with you.  I'm going to wish you grace and all things good, as I know you care as desperately as I do.

      But, I want to win this election. I want to keep the senate and take back the house.  That's what I believe in the most.
      And I release you to believing what you believe, I just don't want to go round and round with you about it, in this time when I think it's so important that we commit.  You've committed to what you believe, and so have I.

      •  Messaging matters (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chipmo, annecros

        Please consider the thrust of downsouth's comment, which is to disagree with your characterization of criticism of Obama as being part of "petty splintering". Some of us find "petty splintering" to be a dismissal of the seriousness of the failings downsouth described.

        That having been said, most all of us will be fighting in the trenches to elect more and better Democrats, including donating to, and volunteering for, the Obama campaign. Some of us will just be fighting our guts out to try to win back the House of Representatives and hold the Senate for the Democratic Party.

        It would behoove our efforts to unite the Democratic Party in taking the battle to the Republicans to not alienate some of our  most ardent Party members by trivializing their concerns, which they are setting aside to defeat the Republicans.

        "11 dimensional chess" is a clever form of using magical thinking to obfuscate the obvious.

        by Zinman on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:33:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't wish to trivialize (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stellaluna, Halandri

          your opinions, or downsouth's opinions.  To do so would be to trivialize my own opinions, as once you head down that road, that's where you end up.

          But, I will and can say, for me, and only for me, at this point, it is a matter of "petty splintering."  And I define petty as that which subverts the priority to the subset of complaints.

          Again, I have clearly stated, re-electing Obama and his down ticket is my greatest priority.  So of course, with the election around the corner,  I see the continuance of the same old discussion here, that's raged over 3 long years, to be somewhat petty and uninteresting to the big picture at this point.

          Which is NOT to say that anyone here who doesn't believe in what I do, doesn't have a right to put forth.  Just saying, and not taking it back, that I'm kind of weary of this argument.

          Time to fish or cut bait.  And if you can't support Obama, you can't.  Ok with me.  Just don't want to argue with you about it anymore.  Not now. Not when there's so much at stake.

           

          •  Missing the point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StellaRay

            Constructive political messaging has to do with communicating in such as a way as to be clear, but also acknowledging and supporting the concerns of those who are with you on your primary objective, but who also seek support for their issues. Rejecting such a compromise is detrimental to achieving your objective.

            To be clear, I am fishing, I support those who will only cut bait, but I think the Captain needs to make sure we all work together harmoniously. I think that effort will be forthcoming soon.

            "11 dimensional chess" is a clever form of using magical thinking to obfuscate the obvious.

            by Zinman on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:18:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If "the Captain" is an illusion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Halandri

              to the president, then I think your expectation that he find a way for us all to work together harmoniously is a bit over board.  Forgive all these puns.  But I think some of that is up to us.

              You know, Zinman, what I often see in angry progressives---and not saying this is you, don't know if it is---is that they above all, seem to want a man with a wand, or a crown, or something that just doesn't gel with the political realities of the day.

              Obama is not perfect, he will never be perfect, he will always disappoint some, no matter what he does.  He will make mistakes, as every other president has, and he will NOT live up to anyone's overblown image of him, left over from the 2008 campaign.  

              And I DO NOT reject the idea of making Obama responsible to the needs of the left.  Not at all.  But I DO reject doing so as a priority over winning in November.  And the truth is, really the truth is, you cannot fill the pages with progressive blame on Obama, without hurting him in the upcoming election.  You just can't.

              So. I say, to every season, there is a ripe moment for the right message.  And right now, that message is for me, Obama/Biden, 2012.  You know, that's a pretty hefty message in itself, without trying to make it stand up to all the complaints of the left, right up to the election.

              •  Yes, "the Captain" is an allusion (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                StellaRay

                I know he and his staff are about as good as it gets in pulling together a winning coalition, so I don't think it is too much to expect that they are right now figuring out how to give us a modicum of what we need to hear before the election. Their dilemma is how much to give us, because if they give us too little, in aggregate we may underperform in support of his campaign, but if they are perceived as pandering to us, they will lose support from the right wing of the Party.

                By the way, to "fish or cut bait" has different meanings, so it is best to explain when using this phrase which meaning you intend to convey. Originally, it meant that those on a fishing boat could either be working the fishing pole(s) or they could be cutting up pieces of bait which were to be attached to the hooks of those working the fishing poles. So the phrase meant that those working on the boat would be in one or the other of these activities, both of which were necessary, but one had to be doing one or the other to help in the overall goal of catching fish, but that choosing "neither" was not an option. Later, the phrase sometimes was used to convey  (incorrectily in my opinion) that one either was fishing or that one cut one's line and stopped fishing altogether. As an occasional sport fisherman, the second meaning does not make sense, but I know it does to some people, so I usually check with them when they use this term to see what they mean by it.

                "11 dimensional chess" is a clever form of using magical thinking to obfuscate the obvious.

                by Zinman on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 10:56:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Interesting history (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  stellaluna

                  of the term "fish or cut bait."  I was unaware of this, and will bow to your knowledge.

                  But Zinman, nothing you said alters my view point or what I was trying to say in my diary.  The idea that we progressives can have it all, bitch our heads off about Obama right up to the election, then go vote for him and expect success, is just not my idea of realistic.

                  Obama is, imo, beholden to us right now, for one thing above all others.  To get re-elected. If he fails at this, everything else we are discussing here will be academic.  Just ask Jimmy Carter.

                  There are some here who chose to see my words as cutting off their right to complain about Obama.  I have tried in many responses here to say that was not my intent.  In fact I say, complain all you want. But I'm going to ignore you.  Because you who are complaining have not shown me reason enough to welcome a President Romney.  Which scares me to death.  

                  I just want everyone on this site whose priorities agree with mine, to free themselves of having to talk the suxers out of their position. I just want to be FREE of the endless sux rox war this site has involved itself in for 3 long years.

                  I know, I don't get to have what I want, but I don't apologize for writing about what I want.  Which is for everyone here to accept where they stand, and if it's against electing Obama as their priority, then please, just get out of our way.

                  •  I'm in the Re-elect President Obama camp (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gooderservice, StellaRay

                    I'm in the Re-elect Democratic Senators and Democratic Representatives camp. I'm also in the pragmatic progressive camp which seeks the best ways to achieve those objectives while getting a little nod our way from the establishment Democrats for doing so, and they don't have to be politically debilitating choices, they could actually be politically positive in effect.

                    If Lucy really wants something badly enough from Charlie Brown, she should at least let him kick a field goal once in a while. Otherwise, Charlie Brown will stop playing the game in disgust, and Lucy won't have anybody else to play with.

                    So show us a squadron of banksters in the slammer and our troops coming home from our disastrous overseas engagements ASAP, and our spirits will rise and be with you in fullness.

                    "11 dimensional chess" is a clever form of using magical thinking to obfuscate the obvious.

                    by Zinman on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 12:34:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I also enjoyed the lesson. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  StellaRay, Zinman

                  And it's good to know that we are basically on the same page. I also think the Administration will throw us a few victories in the next few months. But by their very nature those victories aren't going to address eveybody's individual issue. And the ones who get no relief from their personal issue still have to suck it up and say we will keep working with this Administration to get what we want be ause there is no other successful path forward right now. And then we work like hell not to be in this situation again. We won't have the issue of primarying the President this time so we are all free to pull together. And celebrate that there are at least some issues where we don't have to reinvent the wheel with the next President

                  “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                  by stellaluna on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 07:28:54 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  My understanding has been the first meaning (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Zinman, StellaRay

                  More or less. The phrase often being used about someone who is dithering over a decision. "This vs that". "On the other hand". "However, what if".  Ultimately leading to the directive of "just fish or cut bait" - pick one of your options and just do it.

                  from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

                  by Catte Nappe on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 08:47:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  this is actually a different discussion (9+ / 0-)

      the question is about voting in November, rather than the rightness or wrongness of what the administration does.

      There's nothing we can do to change how the President runs things between now and November. He's totally committed to the present course.

      StellaRay is saying she's made her decision that winning the election is more important to her than having the discussion you want to have (which we can have elsewhere).

      •  Actually, (5+ / 0-)

        StellaRay is saying---and I know her quite well---that we've had these discussions over and over and over again.  

        StellaRay is saying that she's not impressed right now with the righteousness of the ideological discussion, regarding what Obama has or has not done well. There's absolutely  nothing new to these discussions, and I don't think anyone should flatter themselves to think there is.

        StellaRay is saying fish or cut bait.  And she's just fine with you cutting bait. But she just doesn't want to have the same old discussion with you, as Romney lies his ass off, and tightens in the polls.

        •  Hmm. Alright. (9+ / 0-)

          You do realize that the "suxers" have heard this literally hundreds of times before, though, right? You're not bringing anything new to the table here.

          Your manner is a pleasant surprise, however, and I do thank you for that. You seem to be a very nice, balanced person, and I truly enjoy that.

          Logic will break your heart forever. Be brave. -- The Stills

          by Colorado is the Shiznit on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:17:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh yes, Colorado, (7+ / 0-)

            I absolutely realize that the "suxers" have heard this hundreds of times before.  And I would never flatter myself to think I'm bringing anything new to the table here.

            But, I will say for myself, that this diary is about live and let live, in its own way.  This diary is about acknowledging that progressives disagree about Obama. No where in my diary did I say the suxers were wrong.  I simply said, let that be.  AND, that I no longer have any interest in arguing about it with the election right around the corner.

            Again, I am interested in winning this November, and again, I make no apologies about choosing that as my priority.  And I don't expect any suxer to make apologies for their opinion. I just don't want it to define the discussion going forward, as it has for 3 long years here.

            I want those of us who are committed to winning in November to go forth, without feeling they need to justify themselves, or to waste time on the same old fight.

            And thank you for appreciating my better side.  That means something to me.

          •  The one thing we've all heard is the Rox/Sux (2+ / 0-)

            arguments. But we still have to recognize that we have much more in common than we do in differences. People who don't automatically think the use of drones is always bad aren't the people who support innocent women and babies being killed.  And people who think the bankers should be prosecuted aren't automatically secret Mitt Romney supporters. There's a lot of nuance in our positions that gets lost in the pie fights.

            But because there aren't enough Progressives we can't afford to alienate each other. Not with so many important things going on. I for one would love to see us all fighting hard to re-elect the President and then fighting hard to get a more progressive candidate in 2016. Since we all essentially agree that withholding our vote isn't an option I think the next best way to show prospective politicians that they need to consider more progressive policy is to vote in a lot more progressives down ballot. Or really supporting a politician when they take a progressive stand. How many politicians will be willing to support same sex marriage now that the President took a stand and the roof didn't cave in on him. In fact he raised a ton of money. My point is (and maybe partly StellRay's) is that the in-fighting just doesn't matter. We've got to work on getting where we need to be by whatever means necessary. By pulling together.

            “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

            by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:36:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am sincerely sorry to tell you this, (5+ / 0-)

              but I just don't see that happening. Us pulling together, that is.

              While I am planning to hold my nose and vote for Obama again, I know that a few of my close friends are not willing to do that (and they won't be voting for Romney, either, just so we're clear). They feel utterly betrayed by President Barack Obama and, ya know what?

              I can completely understand that. I get it.

              I won't be volunteering for Obama again, but I will be concentrating on down-ticket races, and supporting local candidates that I'm excited about. I've gotta do something with this crazy positive energy, fer chrissakes. :)

              I do appreciate that we have more in common that we have differences, but the differences are rather large, so I'm not really sure how to address that.

              Thanks for commenting in a sweet way. I am a sucker for good manners. :)

              Logic will break your heart forever. Be brave. -- The Stills

              by Colorado is the Shiznit on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:46:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think it's great that you will concentrate (3+ / 0-)

                downticket then. I personally think that is where progressives have got to make the difference. There are too many other variables at play to expect much from any President in my opinion. (well we can expect it but not be surprised when we don't get it). But I truly believe that if we put the kind of underlying support for progressive policy in place down ticket, the way the conservatives have for the last 30 years, it won't matter how wrong headed a President might be--we will still get what we need.

                So we are still in the same fight headed the same way.  And I'm sure once some of us get over the horror of another Republican Presidency we will find we really don't have as many differences as we think.

                “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:01:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Down ticket is what the Republicans did. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  StellaRay

                  They always beat us to the punch.   If they're so stupid, how come they keep kicking our ass?  So far, they own the GOP, SCOTUS, House, and a majority of the states.  With control of enough states, they can pass any constitutional amendment they please.   Why?  Because they are ruthless.  They'll cut off any Republicans head that stands in their movement's way.   We on the other hand just keep clapping.     Achieving our platform might depend on making Republicans lose, but it shouldn't depend on making Democrats win.

                  BTW, the battle you lament has been going on as long as I've been here.   It precedes Obama, and it will remain after Obama.   The Hillary people left here pissed, and so did the people who didn't support Howard Dean's run for President.     This is why we need to stand up to the Democratic Party or abandon it because the status quo is getting us nowhere.   Hell, even Kos is starting to get fed up with what passes as a Democrat.

                  "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

                  by dkmich on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 03:56:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think we agree about most of that. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dkmich, StellaRay

                    And hopefully we agree that "standing up" to the Democrats doesn't mean letting Romney get elected. As little as it is there has been progressive policy during this administration. Policy we wouldn't have gotten from Republicans. We need to improve on it. Insist on it. The best way to do that since we don't have the option of a protest vote is down ticket. I also think we can do it with some positive reinforcement. The national reaction to the President's support of gay marriage has to have emboldened other politicians to embrace it as well. Instead of the political roof caving in he raised a ton of money. And I think the politics for same sex marriage will never be the "scary" political issue it was before. No, it doesn't solve for all the things undone or done wrong. But if we can keep democrats in office this time we are free to find a more Progressive candidate for 2016. And hopefully this candidate won't have so many disasters to try to undo and thus can actually pay attention to the things we care about.

                    I think for now we need to try to change the democratic party rather than abandon it. Not out of loyalty but out of reality. There aren't enough Progressives to make a third party viable. And we have a long history that shows us that. The ultra right recognized that as well and that's why they've used the Republican Party. And then they focused on propaganda and messaging. Which is where we need to be as well. We need to shame people who embrace the politics of selfishness. But we have to be careful with our imaging if we want to win.

                    Finally we need to stop threatening to abandon the party every time we don't like what happens. It creates a situation that makes it easy for the party to discount us.

                    “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                    by stellaluna on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 05:09:23 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Love this: (0+ / 0-)

              "There's a lot of nuance in our positions that gets lost in the pie fights."  

              Yes! Which is exactly why I don't want to give my energy to pie fights right now.  After Obama is re-elected, I'll be far more open to these discussions.

              I know, I know, there are those who think NOW is the time to punish Obama for where I/we disagree with him.  NOW is the time to stick it to him, when he needs my vote.

              I just don't buy it.  We've got an incumbent president who is fighting a terrible economy he's done much to try to change, and didn't have much to do with creating.  If it's all about "the economy stupid," then Barack Obama needs our support more than ever.  

              He needs our support on the big issues, which are that trickle down doesn't work.  Which is that the "job creators" have done everything BUT create jobs. Which is that the rich must pay their fair share.  

              NO ONE here can deny that this hasn't been a major message from the president in these last months.  He's said so over and over and over again.  He deserves our support on this.

              •  I completely agree. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Zinman, StellaRay

                I've said in another comment that I hate it when my fears that this President isn't elected cause me to react defensively. I really don't want innocent people killed by drones. But when I see people using the drone war to encourage others to not vote for the President I react to that rather than my own feelings about the issue. I think he has done some good in light of what he's faced and I think he has let us down when he didn't need to. But I think absolutely he needs to be re-elected. We can build on what he accomplished and move forward if we don't get stopped by a Republican victory.

                “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:25:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Good points. (8+ / 0-)

        But "what the administration does" has everything to do with "voting in November".  Take a look at kos' diary tonight on the Obama deportation record, and how it could cost him Latino votes.  That's just one issue, and one voting bloc.  Lose too much support on such issues in swing states and you lose the election.  So there's an example of how what Obama does directly effects the vote in November, which is as it should be.

        As for the discussion that I "want to have"...oh boy.  If only you knew just how DESPERATELY I wish I didn't have to have those conversations.  I worked so hard to elect this man.  I was so proud of him.

        And, along with millions around the world, I feel so betrayed.

        •  Disappointment is one (5+ / 0-)

          of the toughest things we humans have to endure.  But we do have to endure it every day, far beyond politics.  And just because we are disappointed does not mean we've been betrayed.  It may just mean our expectations were too high, and we too have responsibility in our disappointment.  

          But I understand that you feel betrayed, and you're sticking to that.   I'm not going to try to talk you out of that.  You've made your decision, and I'm OK with that, as I said in my diary.  

          I just want to go "forward" in the best way I know how, despite my disappointments.  And I have them too.  I just view them differently than you do.

          •  I can agree with that. (7+ / 0-)

            And honestly, I had no problem with the gist of your diary...moving forward on our different roads toward the same goal, and not trying to convince each other to come over to the other opinion.  It was just that phrase that upset me.  I just don't agree that the things we (rox/suxers, not specifically you and I) disagree on here amount to "petty splintering".  What may seem "petty" to one person may be life and death to another.

            •  Ok. I get that. (4+ / 0-)

              I here by erase and disown the term "petty splintering."  I retract my defense of the term.  Because you know what, if it causes me not to be able to communicate with you and others who agree more than we don't,  I'll dump it like a bad boyfriend, without looking back.

              downsouth, I really, really, really, did not intend this diary to be dismissive of anyone's disappointment in Obama.  But I knew, no matter how I said it, it would come across as such.

              That's the price of prioritization, and it's painful.  I thank you for your thoughtful add in here tonight.  I really do. You give me things to think about, and that's never a bad thing.

    •  There must be things that you can do to help (3+ / 0-)

      change those things. Not re-electing the president isn't one of them. So if you aren't comfortable supporting the President you should do what you can otherwise to get the change you want.  Lobby your own attorney general for financial crime prosecution.  Definitely elect more progressive congressmen and women who will provide a strong voice against drone warfare. The fact is that we aren't on polar opposites here. No one here is "for" innocent's being killed or "for" big banks crashing the economy. And because we all essentially agree on the way we want the world to be we need to find ways to get there even if it is by different paths.

      “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

      by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:08:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good comment. (5+ / 0-)

        And doing those things is exactly what I have been doing and plan to continue to do.  My time and my money go to down-ballot Democrats who will hopefully win us the House and give us the numbers we really need in the Senate, so that whoever takes the oath on Jan. 20 will be forced to the left if they wish to get anything done.

        While you may think its true that nobody here is actually "for" killing innocent people, there are plenty who are "for" the drone war, and "for" Obama's definition of all military age males in a strike zone as "militants"...thus under-counting the civilian deaths by a huge number, and padding the numbers of "militants killed".  So looked at like that, it's actually not so true that nobody here is "for" killing innocents...as long as we don't admit they were innocent.

  •  I think it will help everyone to disengage from (7+ / 0-)

    The battles here. Most people here are informed enough that no one else here is going to change their mind anyway. It's best to use our energy where it can make a difference. For some that may be helping elect the President and for others hopefully finding a more Progressive candidate for 2016 who can build on the things that have been accomplished without having to undo another decade of backwardism. Even the people who want a better progressive have to imagine how much easier that will be coming out of a successful democratic administration rather than going back to the Bushes. Reagan wasn't close to what the big corporations wanted but he certainly paved the way for what they've got today (see US Supreme Court). We have to see progressive policy as a process. And if you see it that way re-electing this President becomes even more important.

    “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

    by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 07:39:31 PM PDT

  •  I'm with you, kiddo, 100%. (5+ / 0-)

    I even try to avoid discussing this with my birth family, who are all evangelicals and repubs. Best to talk about other things with them, while working as hard as I can to reelect this President and all down-ticket!

  •  Was with you until last 3 paragraphs (0+ / 0-)

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:20:22 PM PDT

    •  Why those last three paragraphs? (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, really, there was only 6 paragraphs to my diary.  So I'd be interested in knowing why you think half of it is wrong.

      •  "I need" "I want" (0+ / 0-)

        You make some good points in the top paras, but then it descends into "I need"s and "I want"s, which diminishes the argument.  It also seems like you want to willingly put blinders on, which isn't something I would encourage anyone to do.   Democracy demands an informed electorate.

        NOW SHOWING
        Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
        Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

        by The Dead Man on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 10:09:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for responding. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stellaluna, Rooe

          I make absolutely NO apologies for "I need," "I want."  And I feel no shame in saying so.  Frankly, if any American who doesn't make over $250,00 year, doesn't feel the need to elect a democrat, I don't know what to tell them.   I've got a good many reasons why I want, and need. I'll spare you the bulk of it. But I will share a couple of things with you.

          My husband and I are self employed, and have been for decades.  My husband has a pre-existing condition.  We have been left to buy the most expensive insurance on the market, with no choices and less coverage than your average employed worker, who pays much less and gets much more, without question, through their insurance at work.  We pay almost $1500 a month for our health insurance, which includes covering our 20 year old son.

          So.  I know the SCOTUS may just over turn the whole thing. And, I wish it would have been single payer.  Still, I really appreciate the Affordable Health Care act, for what it is, and how hard it was to get just that. It will make a big difference for my family, if it stands. And I know, if the GOP wins, there'll be no discussion of affordable health care.  So yeah.  I want.  I need.  I don't apologize for it.

          Also, my son is gay. The thought of the GOP running this country, with their anti gay bigotry, scares me to death for my son.  So yeah. I want. I need.  I don't apologize for it.

          Talk to me about blinders, and I'm going to talk to you about my realities.  I'm going to talk to you about how many of us in this country WANT AND NEED Obama to win, because a president Romney is going to effect our lives in ways we don't want to even fathom.

          And trust me, we're plenty well informed.

          •  Furthermore, I know I keep harping on the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StellaRay

            building process but the ACA is a good example. If it isn't struck down we can start modifying it, improving it and work toward the workable model we all know exists. Just like we did with Social Security. It's so much easier to tweak something that's already in place than it is to start from scratch. Unfortunately Roberts knows this. The Court won't strike it down for what it does--which is to continue to enrich Insurance companies. They will strike it down for what it can become. And will become given time because there is simply no other way. So instead of being less than enthusiastic because we didn't get single payer we need to try to preserve what we've got and elect people who will improve on it. I'd hate to see a democratic president 8 or 12 years from now have to start all over again.  

            “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

            by stellaluna on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 07:51:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Speaking from the party that has reached (5+ / 0-)

    a different conclusion than you:

    1) I have great respect for the comportment you have displayed so far in the comments.  You set a tone for discussion in here and it is like drinking clean water for the first time in years.  Thank you for fostering mutual respect.

    2) Thank you for accepting downsouth's clearly stated objection to the "petty splintering" comment.  It also raised my hackles, but the even-tempered dialogue that resulted calmed them.

    3) I, personally, take exception to the following section.

    And I don't want to see this site bogged down with that argument.
    In my experience, a clear minority of diaries that show up on this page are of the "Sux" variety, and by far most of those are discussions of recent news, not rehashes or unprovoked rants.  Your experience may vary, but I would be shocked if a non-biased tallying proved me wrong.

    Speaking for myself, and myself alone, I do try very hard to avoid the Rox diaries.  I will peruse them briefly, but frankly I have no interest in wasting time there.  I spend almost my time entire time here reading articles about current events from people whose perspective I feel comfortable with.  I have also spent a lot of time here in arguments with "Rox" posters who deliberately enter such diaries.  I feel that the statement you made here implies that the "Sux" crowd is somehow dominating the site, and I also feel that is unfair and inaccurate.

    Thank you for this dialogue.  You are one of my new favorite posters.

    “America is just the country that shows how all the written guarantees in the world for freedom are no protection against tyranny and oppression of the worst kind.” ~Peter Kropotkin

    by chipmo on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:58:36 PM PDT

    •  I think it is interesting that both sides seem to (3+ / 0-)

      perceive the other side as dominating the discussion. I can't bring myself to say I am a "roxer" but I know that my fears about a Republican Presidency tend to make me overly defensive on issues. I agree with you that the tone of the discussion is everything.

      While at first I thought this might be another meta diary with another epic battle I think it's great that we can talk about the issue without raging. Because as I've said over and over, we have more in common--or we wouldn't be here.

      StellaRay has done a great job by example showing us how we can agree to disagree without rancor.

      “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

      by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:12:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks right back at you chipmo. (0+ / 0-)

      Please understand that the intent of my diary was not to change anyone's mind.  Good thing to, huh?  The intent of my diary was not to look my nose down at suxers.  I've been one now and then myself.

      I don't feel the sux crowd dominates this site.  Not at all.  I do feel this site has spent endless comments and discussions over whether Obama is betrayer in chief, or commander in chief. We've had 3 years to have that discussion, and man, no one can say we haven't been at it, up one side, and down another.

      The point of my diary was simply that the time for that is past, until we re-elect this president.  The point of my diary was that if you're an ardent suxer, then so be it.  I don't want to work to change your mind.  I don't want to argue with you right now.  I just want to get this president, and his down ticket re-elected.  I've been as clear and unabashed about that as a kid who wants to make the basketball team.  

      Anyhow, chipmo, thanks everso, for the time and effort you spent writing your comment, in an effort to communicate with me.  That honors me.  It really does.

  •  There are something like 460+ national races to (4+ / 0-)

    worry about - 435 Reps, a third of the Senate, and the WH.  If people are grumpy about one or two races, I really don't give a damn.  There are still a hell of a lot of races they can be supporting, and I'm not going to give them grief if they aren't behind every single Dem in every single race.  I'll just be happy that they're working for some Dems.

    •  Me too, Dr. Erich. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stellaluna

      But I will say this.  The absolute biggest draw in the polls come this November, the reason most people will go vote, the big enchilada of them all, is the race between Obama and Romney.

      We can talk all we want about the other races, and congratulate ourselves that while we won't support the president, we sure are in there for lesser races.

      But the fact is, VERY FEW people will head to the polls to vote for down ticket races, no matter how hard we work. IF they get off their keesters and vote, the grand majority of them will do so to vote for Obama or Romney. And once they're there, most will vote a pretty straight ticket, either way.

      So my point is, we cannot do Obama's down ticket any greater good than we can by supporting Obama.  Not just with our noses plugged.  But with our money and our time.

      •  That matchup is going to be the ignorant (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StellaRay

        haters vs. those who really care about the country's future -- and the people in it. So there's no question that the same voters we need at the top are the ones we want all the way down.

        “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

        by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:38:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly, I've said before if we had a veto proof (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay

      legislature  it really won't matter a whole lot who the President is. Of course I'm only dreaming but we can make a difference all the way down the ballot. And we are still working toward the same goals.

      “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

      by stellaluna on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 09:29:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  HAHAHAHAHA!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Found religion, did you?

    Doubt it.  I give it 48 hours until your pie canon is fully loaded and set on auto.

  •  There is no sux-rox war (0+ / 0-)

    It only exists in the minds of the people who want to talk about it.  The people you're talking about exist around here in such negligible numbers that they're not worth worrying about.  

    Romney '12: Bully for America!

    by Rich in PA on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 03:57:17 AM PDT

  •  Hello StellaRay (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stellaluna, StellaRay

    Good for you on letting go.  If you don't fight back, there is no war.  

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 03:59:02 AM PDT

  •  I am not in the business of being "against" now (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike Kahlow, stellaluna, StellaRay

    I will make a point here of not discussing the presidential race.  I know what I will do; it need not be a matter for discussion.

    So here's the point, whatever you (or I) may feel about our party's presidential candidate is what it is.  The question is, who will you support "below the fold"?  If you are unenthusiastic about Obama, find someone you are enthusiastic for.  Even if it means investing time and/or money in a "lost cause".  Write here about your special focus.  Drum up support.  Be enthusiastic.

    One thing I have learned from watching the right over the years is that they understand the importance of the races below the fold.  Right on down to PTA races.  They understand that the way to control the agenda is to send roots deep down.  We need to become more aggressive in following their lead in this.

    So, get involved, be active, be vocal.  For what or whom you do believe in.

    Ancora Impara--Michelangelo

    by aravir on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 05:25:35 AM PDT

  •  i do hate to say this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay

    but it's more like 4.5 months, not six months.  eeeep!

    why the rec list isn't full of action and candidate diaries is beyond me!

    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

    by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 09:25:40 AM PDT

    •  I agree Cedwyn. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn

      Particularly for the senate.  I wish Dkos would implement an "adopt a senator" campaign.  Those of us who have blue reps in safe districts could then choose a senator in a less safe district, and get active for that senator.  It would be cool if there was a place here where people could go and see the efforts made, and money raised.

      BTW, saw pix of you at NN.  Fun to have a smiling face to go with your comments.  

      •  thanks! (0+ / 0-)

        and your idea sounds like a great diary to me!  i think i'ma write another state of the states one soon (but not until we raise lots of money for LEAP...hahaha); if you wrote yours up, i could incorporate it and maybe we'd get some traction.

        yarite!  LOL  kidding.  

        Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

        by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 02:41:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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