Skip to main content

Skyrocketing tuition costs and out-of-control student loans are, apparently, the reality that we must deal with.

Which is why it's so shocking to hear the political right behave as though "big government" is the problem and that the size of our federal government must be shrunk.  And then I found this page from the University of Texas at Austin, which just about sums everything up:

The tuition charged is in part dependent on the amount of state support received by the institution. In the early 1970s the state paid for nearly 85 percent of the cost of running the educational side of The University of Texas at Austin. Today, the state-appropriated fraction of the total budget for UT Austin is below 20 percent.
So in the 1970s, when our parents were in college, the state footed 85 percent of the cost of running the university.  Today, that number is 20 percent.

Is it any wonder, really, that tuition costs, even when accounting for inflation, have gone up 400 percent in that time?

And hence why you see the generational gap that's emerged in politics.  Our parents' generation got to skate by on the post-New Deal big government that existed up until 1980 or so.  (*I realize that there are many contributors here who were not responsible for Ronald Reagan; hell, I can't even hold my actual mother responsible for him seeing how she voted against him twice.)  Then they decided that they hated the big bad government that had allowed them to go to college at a reasonable cost (or no cost, in the case of some members of our grandparents' generation who went to college on the GI Bill) and hated paying taxes.

Now, our generation is paying the price for that.  While many of our parents have had nothing but hunky-dory experiences with low taxes and a shrinking government -- thanks to the fact that, by and large, they came of age when the New Deal-era big government was still in place -- Generation Y has already experienced the direct effects of small government, up close and personal.  And we don't like it.

And our dislike of small government is met with nothing but pure idiocy from the right.  Sean Hannity insists that we should somehow be angry with big government for the fact that we had to take out student loans (because, after all, Generation Y also has had it drilled into our heads from the time we were six years old or so that we absolutely had to go to college) in the face of the reality that tuition is out of control because of small government and low taxes.  Republican politicians acting as though they're doing us a favor by slashing government spending so that we don't have to foot the bill for the tax cuts for our parents' generation down the road.

Yeah, I think Generation Y is going to be a problem for the Republican Party for some time.  (Aside, of course, from those in my generation who were fortunate enough to have parents who could pick up those skyrocketing tuition costs.)

Originally posted to Houston Progressive on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 10:55 PM PDT.

Also republished by TexKos-Messing with Texas with Nothing but Love for Texans and Community Spotlight.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (126+ / 0-)

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 10:55:53 PM PDT

  •  Lookin' forward to more of your cohort voting... (46+ / 0-)
    Age was also an important predictor of voting. In Table 5, 18- to-24-year-old citizens are the reference category for age. The odds ratio for 25- to 44-year-old citizens is 1.4, indicating that people in the older group had about 40 percent greater odds of voting than younger people. Meanwhile, 45- to-64-year-old citizens had more than twice the odds of voting as young people (2.1:1), while the odds of voting for citizens 65 and older were about 3 times as high (3.3:1).

    Voting and Registration in the Election of November 2008
    US Census Bureau, May 2010

    Cheers.
    •  The whole problem summed up n/t (13+ / 0-)

      I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

      by Farugia on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 11:40:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Unfortunately (21+ / 0-)

      There are many in my cohort who I know to be diehard Teabaggers.  It's actually really bizarre.

      But then most of the people I know in my cohort are still white people from Tennessee and Texas.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:19:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True, though on average (5+ / 0-)

        they're still more liberal than their parents, here in Texas and across the country. I fear for their turnout this year, though. Despite all the hype -- and the palpable energy felt on college campuses around the country -- the 18-29 vote in 2008 ended up being the same pathetic percentage of the electorate as in prior elections. Now the energy is nowhere to be found. Heck, I'm a bit anxious about teaching my elections class this fall because, for the first time since 2000, I'm worried about how to keep them awake.

        You are reading my signature line. #hashtag

        by cardinal on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:26:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hate to sound cynical, but...... (9+ / 0-)

          it seems that anytime progressives are counting on the "youth vote", they are destined to lose.

          Why don't those in the 18-30 age bracket vote in the same numbers that we older folks do?  They have even more to lose than the rest of us, given that they're going to be living in this mess a lot longer than we are.

          Vote, young people, VOTE!

          Stand Up! Keep Fighting! Paul Wellstone

          by RuralLiberal on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:59:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  they cme out to vote in 2008 (4+ / 0-)

            when they felt they had something to vote for.

            Since then, there's been years of Great Depression-level UI for young people, skyrocketing student loans to go with that greatly diminished opportunity, both parties calling to restrain spending and putting SS and Medicare on the table for cuts, etc.

            It's perfectly rational for the young to not be eager to go out and vote for more of that.

          •  When I was young I was a little more concerned (4+ / 0-)

            with mechanics of procreation than with voting... or anything else really. I can't really blame them.

            Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. Mark Twain

            by Deathtongue on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:22:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  probably also a mistake to assume (0+ / 0-)

            those 18 to 30 are necessarily likely dem voters.  there's a lot of people out there [in the tech sector especially] who have bought into the idea that social security is going down the tubes, and they are not counting on ever receiving any payments.  to me a lot of them seem more interested in figuring out new economic models than propping up new deal era programs.

            i don't know why any of them believe this.  failure of messaging, is all i can come up with.

            •  Im 18 to 30 (0+ / 0-)

              in the tech sector and doubt (dont think it will survive in the current form) and actually hope (dont want to become disabled) I will never see a dime in SS

              The tech sector is actually rather liberal

              18-30 somethings vote less at least partialy due to the fact that we do not have nearly as much free time as a 65 + year old retiree.

              If we wanted more of the young adult vote... One EASY fix. make the day a national holiday.  

              •  VOTE by mail. (0+ / 0-)

                Most states allow absentee balloting or vote by mail.  Look into signing up for vote by mail and you will have the option of participation and your vote will be a paper ballot not a machine [that can be tampered with] vote.  

                "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

                by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 06:38:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  The fewer people that can afford college, and (5+ / 0-)

        don't have union jobs available, the more likely they'll be suckered into voting republican.

        Something to consider.

        Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

        by Pescadero Bill on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:15:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  There is also the pesky Interest (14+ / 0-)

      Reagan's financial advisor I believe, told him that college students made $1 million more over a lifetime... why not collect some of that money "up front" and turn it into a money making investment (i.e. student loans).

      We are living in a situation where the student loans are in much more threat of a default than the Social Security System is.

      I agree, it is the lack of taxation, that helps even out state to state, that is being systematically withdrawn.  We will be left with poor states and rich states, depending on their wealth.

      The only reason Texas thrives under its' laws is because of the oil & gas business here and of course, Texas is still full of resources but one day, those too will be gone.

      Tax people, what is so wrong with that?  Because their bosses won't give them a raise so the Government does in the form of less and less services.

      -6.13 -4.4 Where are you? Take the Test!!!

      by MarciaJ720 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:22:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, But We (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      radical simplicity, ozsea1, rmabelis

      already know this demographic is not going to vote in November at the same level as 2008.

      Look at what just happened in WI; the youth didn't vote in significant amount.

      "The fundamental strength of the economy is unimpaired". Herbert Hoover December 2, 1930

      by Superpole on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:23:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And which politicians in WI were talking about the (5+ / 0-)

        issues brought up in the diary?

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:32:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Irrelevant (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ozsea1, rmabelis

          The youth aren't going to vote in November like they did in 2008. I think we know why.

          "The fundamental strength of the economy is unimpaired". Herbert Hoover December 2, 1930

          by Superpole on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:03:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because politicians don't address the issues (13+ / 0-)

            that affect them.  That's why.  And we all know it.  I didn't hear anyone chastising Latinos for low turn out before Obama announced the stopping of lots of deportations.  And yet after that everyone clearly knew it would affect turn out.  Is the youth vote some special magical demographic that doesn't work like any other demographic?  Why are they expected to magically go and vote even though politicians aren't actually doing anything that affects their lives positively?

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:12:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's a catch 22. The more you participate the more (5+ / 0-)

              politicians have to pay attention to your issues.

              Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

              by Pescadero Bill on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:18:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hence why (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pescadero Bill

                things that are important to young people (education, etc.) are always on the chopping block, while things important to seniors (i.e. Medicare) are the "third rail" of politics.

                28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:00:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  COLLEGE TUITION or MILITARY SERVICE (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  atana

                  I see student loans and state funds shrinking too.  If the youth vote doesn't become motivated, there will be less opportunity for college and more youths going into the military for jobs.  Jobs as targets in some third world country where they are protecting the interests of our Corporations.  All hail Halliburton, Dick Cheney is making bundles off of the blood of our troops.

                  "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

                  by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 06:43:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  How many elections does "consistently" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FloridaSNMOM

                voting require.  Because you only get two until you aren't the youth vote anymore.  And really, if you think that consistently voting is what gets politicians to work for your issues then how do you explain Obama's movement on immigration.  Not a single one of the people can vote, nor can their parents.  And, most importantly, Latinos in general have low turnout.  But they sure as hell won't have low turnout this fall.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:17:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Power of every vote is important. (0+ / 0-)

                  There are ballot issues in between presidential elections, there are local elections for representatives who are sent to Congress.  Congress is the most valuable vote, because there isn't a dime spent without Congress making it a spending [appropriations]  bill.  Local issues are very important.  Only voting in the Presidential elections is a waste of opportunity to put the people in offices to represent the voters.  The President makes appointments to the Supreme Court, Citizen's United is a very good reason to select a President that will make good choices to the SCOTUS.  The House of Representatives hold two year terms and should be very important in the reflection of VOTERS.  Look what happened in 2010 with the teapublican take over of the House.  Your Mayor and Governor are elected by your VOTE.  There is more to the VOTE than the POTUS.   The six year terms of Senators makes mid-presidential elections important as well.  There will be mid-presidential elections where you will be able to VOTE for your senator.  Fewer senators using the filibusterer will move this country back into representing people and not just ALEC.

                  "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

                  by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 06:52:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  not actually doing anything? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Only Needs a Beat, TDDVandy, rmabelis

              what about health insurance up to age 26?

              what about no pre-X condition bar to coverage?

              what about attempts to reduce student loan interest (squashed by Republicans)?

              So Obama did not deliver miracles in three years.  Aren't they smart enough to realize that (a) he did do a lot; (b) the alternative will be absolutely disastrous for them?

              The GOP: "You can always go to the Emergency Room."

              by Upper West on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:47:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why are they expected to go out and vote? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rmabelis

              For the same reasons the rest of us are.

              I've had 40 years of feeling failed by the political system, and almost no hope left. But I still vote for the same reason I still breathe: I'm not dead yet.

              If I waited to be happy with Washington before I bothered to show up on Election Day then I never would have.

              We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

              by denise b on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:08:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You studiously ignore the issue of (0+ / 0-)

                Latinos and their similarly low turnout.  And how now we are going to se a rise in their turnout because of the actions of the president.  We are not going to see presidential action because of a rise in turnout.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:06:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As a far left liberal (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  J Orygun, denise b

                  I know no politician will ever fulfill my desires.  That is ok.  I was pissed at first, so I can understand why kids are not happy with Obama, but on the plus side, my kid is not that way.  She just turned 18 in April and has now cast her 1st vote.  She looked up the issues and the candidates and made a decision.  She recognizes that her views are far left and not likely to be represented by moderates like Obama.  That won't stop her from voting and encouraging her friends to vote.

            •  El Wrongo. (0+ / 0-)

              It's because neither of the main parties can be trusted with anything whatsoever. Republicans are evil and Democrats are a more effective version of that same evil who happen to agree with a few social issues that are fairly obvious and common sensical to our cohort. We understand electioneering. We understand who owns who. We understand that Obama is an abysmal failure, sellout and liar. We're not idiots and we don't need to be pandered to.

              All partisans are full of shit and most of them have shit for brains. The Internet makes it quite easy to verify this.

              It's all kabuki to us and we think it's cute that you still think in terms of right and left. We've set sail and don't want anything to do with your Hegelian dialectic garbage any longer.

              We're a lost generation and we won't vote because there's no reason to do so. We're finding our own way and it doesn't involve having Ds or Rs by our names. Message away all you want. It's all just agitprop to most of us.

              (And we laugh at the members of our cohort who sign onto the death spiral of the fading empire by legitimizing it with campaign work or support. Just being honest.)

              To label any subject unsuitable for comedy is to admit defeat. -- Peter Sellers

              by krikkit4 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:42:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Great, my vote will have more power. (0+ / 0-)

                Don't vote, sure, then don't complain when my vote has more power because you didn't vote.  

                Every person who doesn't vote gives their choice to someone they don't even know.  Even if you vote for a candidate who has no chance of winning you still keep some moron from voting for you when you choose not to vote.

                Low voter turnout is the hope and dream of ALEC, why do you think they are polluting the states with their voter suppression initiatives?  ALEC wants you disparaged and turned off, that empowers their kool-aid drinking followers VOTE.  

                You have a choice to engage and VOTE, or to check out and make my vote more and more powerful.  You don't know me, but you will allow me to decide your future.  Do you trust me to VOTE for your interests or just mine.  I sure don't want someone I don't know VOTING for my interests, beliefs, or issues.  

                "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

                by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 06:59:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Representative Democracy has failed. (0+ / 0-)

                  And all of you are to blame.

                  We're choosing not to sustain or take part in said failure.

                  Don't lecture about the mechanics and theory of the franchise.

                  It's unseemly to defend something that doesn't work.

                  Carlin was on point when he noted that those who vote for the lesser evils (as you'll certainly do) are the ones who have no reason to complain. You've encouraged the criminals and legitimized their system. Not us. Not anymore.

                  It's not terribly difficult to understand.

                  To label any subject unsuitable for comedy is to admit defeat. -- Peter Sellers

                  by krikkit4 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 05:14:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Ahem...Student Loan reform... (0+ / 0-)

              Yes, the young have lots to complain about, and obviously the failure of both state and federal governments to provide sufficient funding for affordable college education, in addition to a litany of other issues, really highlights the failure of our political system to address issues that disproportionately affect the young. I get that. But everyone here has been mentioning how the executive order will help improve Hispanic and Latino turnout, a large bloc often missing from the polls come election day. Well, student loan reform, passed by Dems and Obama pre-midterms, was a major step in the right direction. It cut out predatory private lenders, saved billions, and was accompanied by regs (admittedly water-down after intense lobbying efforts) that provided SOME accountability for for-profits. In addition, they boosted federal assistance to community colleges. The loan reforms also made student loans at lower interest rates easier to get, and many other changes that make them easier to pay off. Many of these changes aren't even known by people who HAVE loans to pay-off (for instance, the reduction of Income Based Repayment from 15% of take home to 10% and public service loan forgiveness after 10 years. Both huge improvements and widely ignored.). While Obama's executive order on deportation is also great and a step in the right direction, to say Dems do nothing for young voters and then tout that as a major turnout boon for Hispanics and Latinos is a little simplistic. In fact, I'm surprised the student loan reforms haven't been touted more, and additional improvements added to the platform.

              Now before I get too many rebuttals, allow me to point out that I think state and federal governments should fully fund public university education, and that tuition expenses should be paid 100% by the public for any student that is admitted to a college or university. My point is converting the loan system to direct federal funding was a significant step in the right direction, and credit should be given. In addition, you can't reasonably tell me that youth vote interests have been ignored when student loan reform was a much more significant improvement for their interests than the executive order was for the Hispanic/Latino community.

              I am a "youth vote" person, and let me tell you, I typically find my peers to be the most under-informed, annoying, and politically apathetic people I've ever encountered. I mean, seriously, most of them don't know much about history or economics, and have too basic an understanding of political ideology or philosophy to correctly identify the policy positions (much less the reasons for those positions) of liberals. I don't blame them...testing has taken it's toll. But it makes it no less infuriating to talk to them. They buy into false-equivalence, centrist bullshit (hence the low turn-out), arrogantly act as though avoiding taking an actual position on even basic issues is high-minded (instead of cowardly, which it is), often describe themselves as "socially liberal, but fiscally conservative" without even thinking about what that means, think charter schools and Michelle Rhee are heroic reformers and will solve our education issues, and could not think their way out of a bag. I am not saying all youth are like this, and I don't have the data to empirically verify this, but this is solely qualitative assessment based on the small N of my interactions with people my age. When I tell people my age I read mostly non-fiction books about economics, the source of the current crisis, derivatives regulations, environmental regulations, etc., they look at me like I grew another head. But to me, what else matters? What could be more important to learn about or read about? And this is being extrapolated from people I met in COLLEGE and GRADUATE SCHOOL, the one segment I really hoped would be more informed and passionate about things. In the 60's, students rioted, ran for office, and took to congress in the 70's. I just don't particularly like my generation, but for much different reasons than middle-aged conservatives.

              There was a rant in a forum where Jon Stewart chastised young people for expecting politicians to give them attention in order to them to vote. To paraphrase from memory (I saw it over a year ago): [These are issues that affect the world you have to live in. Nobody owes you anything. If the fact that politics affects the world around you isn't enough on its own to get you to participate and be actively interested, then don't come crying when the world is not what you want it to be.] I couldn't agree more.

      •  Huh (0+ / 0-)

        nothing to do with college being out, and the student enclaves not being in Madison and Milwaukee.

        It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

        by Solarian on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:34:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If there were politicians who seriously (8+ / 0-)

      addressed these issues then more folks might come out and vote from those groups.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:30:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So what you're saying is.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      m00finsan, Only Needs a Beat, AoT

      Those who have benefitted longer from, vote more often.  

      Those who see the whole thing as built for the rich, and the those already established, don't feel like participating as much.

      That kind of makes sense.  Of course, they should care more.  But I can certainly see why they don't.  

      Maybe if the Democrats would stand up for them more, they'd find a party they feel does want to help them (or at least not hurt them more).

      We're living in world fascism, but coming up to world socialism. But it doesn't happen without a fight.

      by Deadicated Marxist on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You also need to keep in mind (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Only Needs a Beat

      that people in one age bracket tend to move to the next one with each election. The kids who should have voted when they were 18-30 (let's say) three presidential elections later are in in the 31-44 age bracket.

      I'm not saying good voting habits shouldn't start as early as possible -- nor that all 18-30 voters will make the wisest decisions -- but by the time the PTB figure out how to reach the "Youth vote" of one election, those individuals are no longer part of the "Youth vote" & those individuals 18-30 have a entirely different set of issues & concerns.

      Or to put it another way, some of us remember this joke about Paul McCartney. Well that joke could be easily updated for this election's "Youth vote" to begin: "Dave Grohl was in a band before Foo Fighters?"

      Geoff

  •  It isn't just the young'ens (42+ / 0-)

    I'm a bit removed from the 18-24 demographic, but still well acquainted with student debt.

    Graduating college with a debt burden was scary before 2000, and now it can only be worse as prices have risen and job prospects have disappeared.

    I heard the worry, and doubt, from my parents when they saw that I and my friends put off houses, cars, even kids because of that debt.

    My parents went into the world and didn't have to start with a weight around their neck. That stone has only grown larger over time. My wife and I were able to pay off all of our loans early, but it still took about 7 years.

    I distinctly remember the cutbacks by Gov. Voinivich, and how it directly impacted me in college. Departments were eliminated, staff was cut, and my tuition went up. A couple of those quarters - I still don't know how I made it.

    It is his days in office that put down the first bricks for Governors like Kasich to follow.

    And he was a Republican "Education" Governor.

    It was when I noticed politics, and that they mattered. Today when a candidate calls themselves an 'Education' candidate, it makes the hair on my neck rise, and predisposes me to vote for their opponent.  

    The weirdest thing though, every candidate that has made that claim that I can remember has been a Republican.

    I am tired of seeing the decline of the dream, and I hold the Republicans accountable.  

    It has started with the small stuff, I no longer sit back and let the stupidity go unchecked. Prove those unfounded accusations on facebook.

    If goes beyond that though, it is making sure I vote, and it is getting involved.

    I believe in a government that can provide an opportunity for any child to learn, can maintain an infrastructure, provide for the common good, while keeping out of the lives of its citizens. I find it hard to understand those who don't want these things.

  •  it's not just tuition; it's shit hitting the fan. (43+ / 0-)

    The boomers grew up in a world where the economy basically worked and the social contract basically held.  Plus or minus racism of course.  

    My generation (X) grew up in a world where when we were little kids the economy worked etc. but then we graduated from college just as the shit was hitting the fan.  So we got totally blindsided: prepared for a world in which jobs were stable, prosperity came from working, etc. etc., and ending up in a world that was basically a social darwinist nightmare.

    Your generation (Y) grew up in a world where the shit has already been hitting the fan for most of your lives.  The downside is that you never got to know what "normal times" were like, but the upside is that you didn't get blindsided like we did.  

    But it gets worse from here.  Keyphrase "the limits to growth."  Climate catastrophe.  Population overshoot of the resource base, followed by population collapse otherwise known as dieoff.  And your kids are going to grow up in a world in which the yearly global death toll from shit hitting fan, exceeds the total death toll from WW2.  Whether anything like civilization can continue under those conditions is anyone's guess.  

    Get prepared, relocalize, know who is in your tribe.  

    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:38:18 AM PDT

  •  When a generation voting solid GOP went to school (33+ / 0-)

    they had all the benefits of a functional nation-state.

    Then that generation set to the task of dismantling said nation-state.

    Nice going, metaphorical Mom and Dad...

  •  The G.I. Bill paid for most of my college but (12+ / 0-)

    I'm sensitive to how expensive tuition is since it has discouraged me from seeking another degree out of pocket.

    I seriously hope young people plan to vote in this election...

    "You don't have the right facts!"~My Tea Party Neighbor

    by Therapy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:50:48 AM PDT

    •  You young people ARE the key to leading (12+ / 0-)

      the way to change.   I am so sorry that Reagan rode in for your birthdays and then the Bushes and except for the Clinton years, the pounding of trickle down has robbed you.   There is a huge movement that needs to start and it could be any of you to begin to hammer the message all across the land.  I do know this....it is in your age bracket.   Remember the hippies and flower children?   In one voice they all had the same message.
      58,000 plus names on a wall was too many.
      The civil rights act.....HAD to come..  One voice on message.
      Now this economic thing,,,,ONE voice with the same message will have to emerge.
      Occupy is a little scattered and too many messages to be that voice IMO. And too infiltrated.
      One peaceful movement.  One silent immovable movement.

      We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

      by Vetwife on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:01:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The hippies and flower children (5+ / 0-)

        were not the same as the anti-war movement, though there was overlap and a certain common fashion sense in some. Most "flower children" were apolitical...an eternal problem among young people. If young people did organize and vote as a bloc they could be powerful, but I fear today's kids, despite the threats they face, are like earlier generations in not seeing the point in voting, especially on the local level. The obvious influence of money makes it harder to persuade people that democracy has a chance...

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:31:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And which candidate is it that's doing anything (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattc129, Only Needs a Beat

      about tuition?  Or even talking about it.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Divide and Conquer (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        New Rule, Only Needs a Beat

        I know we are all friends here, and as a teacher I have a great deal of knowledge and simpathy for both Generations X and Y.  But if I were a Republican planner, I would seriously start thinking of how to use this thread as divide and conquer.

        Of course, they are probably already figuring out how to do this now.

        But SO FAR, the boomers recognize the threats to their own children.  I hope that does not change.

        •  The GOP isn't going to do shit about fixing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          New Rule, Only Needs a Beat

          tuition costs, they want less people in school.  But neither have the Dems done anything.  Here in CA the Dems keep cutting education, especially higher education.  How does it encourage the youth vote when everyone is against them?

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:17:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Me too. (0+ / 0-)

      The GI Bill paid for my undergraduate education as well.  I also have been able to work with what I learned in the military and college.  I am not rich, but I can work.  

      VOTING improves my chances of continuing to work.  If I didn't VOTE I would not have been able to influence local supervisors or mayors when it came to how my tax dollars were spent at home.  We don't have as much power at the national level, I understand that, but we give up our power to someone else when we don't VOTE.

      "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

      by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:19:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I finished college in 1984 (5+ / 0-)

    and left a private university with $17,500 debt.
    It was paid off in 11 years (should have been 10 but the 90-91 recession forced me to take a grace year).
    1st academic year 79-80 TOTAL cost was $7,000
    Last (of a 5-year program) 83-84 was $8400.
    Those numbers are approximately correct, but I ask...
    Is my story unusual for someone of my generation?
    And I agree that tuition has gotten out of control, but as I understand it, the private institutions should not have been affected in the same way as the public ones have been from public funding cuts and cost burden shifting.

    •  The prices you paid aren't out of line for the (7+ / 0-)

      time frame.  I remember my first semester at a State University was $1400 for room/board/tuition.  So, a year was about 4-5k.  I started college in the fall of 1983.  It's nearly twice that now at the same university.

    •  Yes, your story is unusual. (14+ / 0-)

      Someone lower-mid could graduate in four years from a flagship land-grant university with only a few thousand dollars in debt. If your parents were professionals who had successfully saved -- and keep in mind, the inflation of the 70s meant that lots of people's parents were able to pay off their mortgages in record time, leaving plenty of disposable income -- you could graduate with no debt at all.

      You are certainly correct that private institutions should not have been affected in the same way -- and they have not. Thus, a typical student from a typical family can attend a typical 4-year liberal arts college for 25 to 30 thousand dollars a year (because they'll get a substantial need-based "discount" off of the 45 to 50 thousand dollar sticker price), or a flagship land grant university for 20 to 28K per year -- in other words, the window between the two has closed, and NOT because the private places have gotten cheaper.

      I don't know what you did/do for a living, but the practical reality of modern living is that people are graduating with their bachelor's degrees and cannot find employment that pays enough to service their student debt. An anecdote about how one person once upon a time graduate and found a job that paid for their college education isn't a very useful starting point for discussing the aggregate circumstances. A graduating engineer from a flagship landgrant in 1984 might have started work at 25K per year, or approximately 5 times the annual cost of a year of study. In 2012, the comparable number is perhaps 60K per year, or approximately 2 to 2.5 times the annual cost of a year of study. And that's the engineers -- the people who have it best. Got a bachelor's in biology, and looking to get started in biotech? If you find a job at all, you'll be lucky to find one that pays 30K.

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:35:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Graduated as an architect (5+ / 0-)

        (hence the 5-year program) and my first job in 1985 paid $20K.  So my ratio even then was even less than 3 according to your formula. And when I finished paying it in 1996, I was still only making about $32K.  (The '90 recession was pretty bad for architects).  But I agree, I am in a generally better paying profession than a lot of folks nowadays, however, I am currently out of work and living on savings and UE.

      •  Tell me about it. (10+ / 0-)

        I've a Ph.D. in molecular virology and currently working a technician job that pays $40K.  If not for $50K in student debt, that would be an okay salary for Ann Arbor.

        •  Oh wow. I was stipended in grad school in the (4+ / 0-)

          late 80s - early 90s:  had no tuition debt coming out of cellular, viral, molecular biology PhD program, and had an NCI grant to help support that stipend.  No more stipends?  That's horrible.  We're not going to have any more PhDs or innovations or even departments to mentor  if the academic situation doesn't correct itself.  As it is, the ability to have a department is entirely dependent on NIH, NCI, VA Merit Review and other federal research funding.  Instructors and professors are hired, but are required to come up with their own salaries, as well as those of their techs, post docs and grad students, and with the fed funding so tight and getting tighter, that just keeps getting harder.  What a destructive mess it all is.

          "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

          by middleagedhousewife on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:58:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I actually was stipended. (2+ / 0-)

            A good part of that came from my undergrad years, and a failed Ph.D. back in the mid 1990s.  The remaining is actually deferred medical bills - student loans are far easier to handle then medical creditors, and what HAS changed is that grad students at Ohio State were stuck with extremely high co-pay junk insurance.

            Not a good time to develop a potentially fatal chronic disease.

      •  My Dad worked for the Post Office and put both of (8+ / 0-)

        us through school. We did work fulltime in the summers and part time throughout the year to pay for room and board , or some of it .  But then again, we kids mostly lived with about a half dozen roommates when rent was affordable for student housing apartments.

        But he was paying about 800-1000 dollars per year tuition.  

        Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

        by wishingwell on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:20:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Or (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Only Needs a Beat

        You could do what I did... Live at home, work 30-40 hours a week at a pretty much minimum wage job, and go to school full time... $2,000 of debt for 4 years at a state school with the rest having been paid off solely by me with monthly payments.

        Living in the dorms might be considered fun and part of the college experience, but it's a huge financial drain... Also, having a near full time job while going to school makes a huge difference in the financial situation as well...

        •  Yeah, that works if you can find a job that will (6+ / 0-)

          work around your school schedule.  It's fine while you're in community college, but once you're in university it's not so easy.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:04:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You end up going for years. (3+ / 0-)

            That's what my son did. We paid tuition and books, he worked at Starbucks (for the insurance) and lived off campus. He got his first "real job" at 27, a year after he graduated.
            He didn't have any debt, but unless your loans are extremely high, you're missing out on years of work and the raises that go with them. Come to think of it, do they give raises any more?

            "There's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in". Leonard Cohen

            by northsylvania on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:00:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did go for years. Again, going to university (6+ / 0-)

              for years is actually a worse investment because you don't pay significantly less for attending part time as opposed to full time.

              Of course, all this assumes that an 18 year old has the awareness to know how this stuff works straight out of high school.  Something less and less likely as we cut funding for that and attack teachers.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:12:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Something like that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                New Rule

                Should be the parents' responsibility.  It's easy to cop out and say that kids are financially ill prepared because there's no school funding, but basic finance and basic life skills, and basic good decision making is something that should be well taught at home.

                •  But the parents aren't responsible (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  New Rule

                  for the debt most of the time.  The kids are.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:30:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But (0+ / 0-)

                    Teaching kids basic finance and some semblance of the idea of opportunity cost and making sure that they know what they're getting into will prepare them to make better decisions about how to get through school.  

                    It's more than possible to get through college with little debt if you're willing to make a few choices that may not be so fun (having to live at home, having to work nearly full time during, etc.) in the short term, but hugely pay off in the long term.  

                    And teaching a child to recognize that short term fun and goodies (using school loans to go on spring break or studying abroad, or not having to live with your parents anymore) aren't always better than long term fun and goodies (relatively more financial freedom after college) is one of the most important lessons that you can teach them.

                    •  I agree, and it would be nice if parents (0+ / 0-)

                      actually did that.  But it's clear that isn't happening.  More than that we have a culture that has been telling people for decades that they'll amount to nothing if they don't get a degree.  That makes it seem like a good investment pretty much no matter what.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:24:55 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Well yeah. (0+ / 0-)

                  It was a trade off between his wish to be independent and his very real ned for tuition and books. He wanted to live with his girlfriend and, while we were prepared to co-sign for her car loan, we were not prepared to support her in our house.
                  All the financial education in the world means very little when a young man suddenly discovers the opposite sex. at that point it's damage control, tolerance, and kindness for both the protagonists.
                  Admittedly, this is an anecdotal situation. Conditions may vary.

                  "There's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in". Leonard Cohen

                  by northsylvania on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:02:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Yep -- there's typically a 25% discount for (0+ / 0-)

                being full-time, because (typically) you pay per-credit for the first 12 credits in a semester, and then the next 4 credits are free.

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:37:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah. And if you live within reasonable (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FloridaSNMOM

            commuting distance of a post-secondary institution, and if you can afford a car, and if you can handle working 70 - 80 hour weeks, and if and if and if and if.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:34:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  "Why don't you do what I did?" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FloridaSNMOM

          The mantra of libertarian-conservatism. This comment, plus your additional remark just below, throw into sharp relief the philosophical differences between anything that could remotely be considered modern liberalism, and ... well, everything else, including whatever it is that underpins your own belief system. "It's the parents responsibility" == "Fuck off and die if your parents were incompetent or unfortunate". I don't know what you think you're doing here, but whatever it is, it hasn't got much to do with advancing a humane social agenda.

          Just because it's possible for some people to graduate from some colleges in some places under some circumstances while living at home and working 30-40 hours a week doesn't make it a reasonable thing for society to expect of its young men and women. A reasonably challenging undergraduate curriculum should be a full-time job. Expecting people to work 70 to 80 hours a week is no more reasonable for college students than for anybody else.

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:33:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  oops ... the additional remark "just below" (0+ / 0-)

            actually appears above this one.

            sorry to all for the confusion.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:37:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  But then (0+ / 0-)

            If someone is willing to work 70-80 hours a week counting school and a job so that they don't get saddled with a pile of debt and someone else is not, the someone else who is not can't really complain about the debt they take on when it was personal decision to do so.

            And I resent being told that I need to pay more to make it easier for someone else who doesn't want to put in the time and effort and doesn't take the time to develop the foresight to see the consequences of their actions.

            •  Congratulations. (0+ / 0-)

              You're a conservative.

              I will treat your resentment with all of the due consideration with which you would treat my very long list of resentments relating to conservative behaviors and attitudes. Which is to say, none at all.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 09:27:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't understand (0+ / 0-)

                How having a solid work ethic and putting in the time and effort to make sure that my path through life goes as smoothly as possible and being irritated with people who don't want to put in that time and effort but still want to complain about how it should be easier for them makes me a conservative, but whatever...

                •  If you understood, you wouldn't be a conservative. (0+ / 0-)

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 12:56:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What I do understand (0+ / 0-)

                    Is that there are legitimately some people who literally cannot either physically or mentally put in the effort that I'm referring to, but what I'm saying is that of the pool of people that are taking out huge amounts in loans that are more than capable of putting in the extra time and effort to make things easier for themselves in the long run but don't because it's not fun to put in that time and then piss and moan because they think it should have been easier for them don't deserve pity.  

                    That's what I just can't get my mind around... Because I see doing right by the community and general population as me doing what is necessary to be as little of a burden on the system as possible, but what I get from a lot of people here is that they see doing right by the community and general population as everyone else doing something to make it easiest for me... Maybe that's not the case and I've misunderstood, but that's what bothers me...

                    I just don't appreciate having busted my ass to not be a burden on the state or anyone else and then being told that I have to bust my ass more so that I can make it easier for everyone else to not be a burden...

                    •  There are primarily two ways in which a (0+ / 0-)

                      person might respond to having been forced by the arbitrary and largely random circumstances of social institutions  (which circumstances function largely to provide lives of extraordinary luxury and power for an extraordinarily small fraction of society) to endure an arbitrary and largely random and overly burdensome rite of passage.

                      Way number one: Conclude that everybody else should suffer the same arbitrary and largely random and overly burdensome rite of passage, in service of the same arbitrary and largely random circumstances of social institutions (which circumstances function largely to provide lives of extraordinary luxury and power for an extraordinarily small fraction of society).

                      Way number two: Conclude that the arbitrary and largely random circumstances of the social institutions ought to be changed, so that nobody else must suffer the same arbitrary and largely random and overly burdensome rite of passage.

                      The Way of Number One is the way you have chosen, grasshopper. Congratulations, your Pawn of the Plutocracy patch will be arriving in the mail soon. And any day now, they will reward you richly for your devoted service. Until then, just keep working so very very hard, so as not to be a burden on everyone else.

                      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                      by UntimelyRippd on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 05:22:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm very happy with the way I've turned out thanks (0+ / 0-)

                        At 27 years old I make more than most people reach after 25+ years of service.  I'm no one's pawn, I provide a service that people want which not many can do and I'm well compensated for it.  I attribute that to having made good decisions in life, decisions which were harder to work through at the time, but have paid off more than I could have imagined.  

                        And I further attribute that good decision making to having received a solid foundation for making good decisions from my parents (who themselves were not well educated people, but knew that hard work and a little bit of foresight allows a person many luxuries in life).  

                        So I say to you, congratulations, you have chosen way number two.  Enjoy having nothing in life while berating others for having worked harder than you that have more than you simply because you didn't want to put in the time.  So keep up the mediocre work, I'm sure at some point your jealousy and envy will pay off.  

      •  Yep. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Only Needs a Beat

        The private colleges' tuition has gone up, but what they basically do is have rich kids subsidize poor kids -- the kid with millionaire parents pays $50k a year so that poor and middle-class families can pay far less than that.

        28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

        by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:44:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have about the same amount of student debt (9+ / 0-)

      For a two year degree from which I graduated in 2009. That was also a private university, and that was after pell grants and a scholarship or two.

      Tuition per semester for full time students this year at the same university is $7,092.00. That's not counting additional fees, books, uniforms, etc. (The education fee per semester for the degree I have is $770.)

      It's one of two schools in the area that offer an AS in Occupational Therapy, the other was all the way on the other side of town from me, which would have complicated things further since I traveled by bus.  

      In order to get a degree in OT at a public school I would have had to go for my Masters, and I could not at the time commit my family to that many years of my being in school and working. It would have been too much for my other half and for the kids.

      "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

      by FloridaSNMOM on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:02:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Private not affected to the same extent (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NYFM, Only Needs a Beat, New Rule

      but some of the same forces are involved. When the Fed spends less $ on research, that is less grant money for all Universities to compete over.

      CMU, The private school where I did my undergraduate work used to make a significant chunk of change from local businesses wanting a better trained workforce. Now even Google employees don't have their reimbursement cover the CMU rates and choose Pitt because it does.

    •  same story here. more or less. nt (3+ / 0-)

      I definitely had to take some grace periods and debt reorganization, and it took more than 10 years to pay, but my payments were, like $50 per month, and I eventually paid it off.  Really sucks now for recent grads.  

  •  That is only one of the many dimensions your (24+ / 0-)

    generation is being screwed.  I'm still highly paid, but the ladder is fractured and now outsourced over-seas.  Those same geezers cutting off federal aid for tuition and sneering at you for wanting what they had have had also outsourced the opportunities that brought them income.

    and their contempt for the Latin schools was applauded by Theodoric himself, who gratified their prejudices, or his own, by declaring that the child who had trembled at a rod would never dare to look upon a sword.

    by ban48 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:59:24 AM PDT

  •  All the more reason for the 'Y's to get off their (19+ / 0-)

    Ass! As in become politically involved, vote, join OWS and re-enact the 60s. It is the only way the political establishment is going to pay any attention to you

    An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head. -- Eric Hoffer

    by MichiganChet on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:02:56 AM PDT

    •  And in the meantime, vote and do GOTV but also (6+ / 0-)

      become politically involved as you suggested. But they really do need to vote and vote each time there is an election.

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:24:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They voted in huge numbers in 2008 (8+ / 0-)

        and every issue that is specific to their demographic has been ignored.  That doesn't encourage more voting.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:40:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And not voting helps how? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChurchofBruce, New Rule

          To be a demographic that matters you have to vote.  And vote consistently.  If the huge turnout in 2008 was contingent on getting attention to the things that only matter to that demographic then they are going to be dismissed as unreliable.

          I don't disagree with you that more attention should be paid to the needs of that demographic.  But I don't think it's correct to say they have been ignored.  Jobs, health care (for young people up to 27) and the small bits that have been done toward climate change are all directed toward that age group.  You could definitely make the argument that reduction of the national debt is for the benefit of that age group.  So I guess you mean only issues that are specific to that age group (exluding health care provisions).  What, other than education debt do you mean?  And how do you think the Administration should have addressed those issues particularly in this political climate?

          “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

          by stellaluna on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:54:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never said that not voting helps (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FloridaSNMOM

            I said that they don't vote because politicians pretty clearly won't address the issues that affect them.  Obama clearly has done a couple things, however minor, on some of these issues.  The problem is that politicians aren't even suggesting solutions that will fix the problems.  They are stuck in stupid neo-liberal politics that pretend that markets can fix every problem when most of us know that nonsense.  In regards to Global Warming, what the Democrats have proposed will not significantly affect the rise in temperatures.  How are people suppose to look at the Dems and believe that they have their interests in mind when the solutions they propose won't solve the problem.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:08:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Boo hoo (0+ / 0-)

              News flash - politicians suck, even the ones that are supposed to be on our side, even most of those we start out with high hopes for, even the ones we still turn out to vote for even though we know we're getting more of the same. It's a crushing realization for the young, but we've all been through it. We all suck up our dashed hopes year after year and fight off despair the best we can.

              If being disappointed by politicians were a reason to give up on voting, older people would have way more reasons than the young do. Young people have barely begun to feel let down.

              We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

              by denise b on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:32:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Boo fucking hoo, young people aren't voting (0+ / 0-)

                as much as the Democratic party wants them too.  Maybe if they grew up and understood how politics worked they would have more victories.

                Young people have barely begun to feel let down.
                It's condescending asses like you that are part of the problem.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:31:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I would actually disagree with this (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Only Needs a Beat

          Student loans have not been ignored.

          But it is kind of a vicious cycle.  We don't vote, so politicians ignore us, which means we don't vote because politicians aren't addressing our issues.  On the other hand, they bend over backwards for what seniors want.

          28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

          by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:45:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  College costs and the growing inaccessability of (16+ / 0-)

    college education is a growing problem in the US.  Before long, this will be a BIG issue.  Of course, there are other big issues affecting generation Y and everyone else, such as the general state of the economy, the environment, etc.

    As a boomer, I realize that, until about 2001, we had a functioning to mostly functioning nation and a sane to mostly sane culture.  While things began to slide down hill during the Reagan administration, they deteriorated very rapidly under bush, Jr.  I have no doubt that future historians will see him as a disaster and the worst president we've ever had.

    My son is 24 and generation Y.  He understands what is in the diary and understands what I wrote, above.  While I think the majority of his generational peers agree with him, there are also some very, very conservative, almost fascist types in generation Y.  It seems to me to be a generation deeply split but one that mostly realizes that they have to make HUGE changes in government and society during the next few decades.  

    Generation Y will shoulder gigantic responsibility.

    The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

    by Saint Jimmy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:03:53 AM PDT

    •  The slide started long before 2001 (5+ / 0-)

      Think back to the 80s and the Ivan Boesky's and Michael Milken's that were out there, taking perfectly healthy, well-run companies and destroying them with leveraged buyouts.

      By then, you boomers had mostly given up on the ideals of the 60's. Instead, it was all yuppie, all the time, and he who dies with the most toys wins.

      •  Yeah, I know.... and I say that with sadness. The (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Only Needs a Beat, Kamakhya, admiralh

        big sea change happened in the early '80s.  I could almost FEEL it.  I remember attitudes and people I knew changing during those years and, in some cases, the changes were stark and really surprised me.  

        I'm guilty.  I admit it.  I was a liberal, pot smokin' ;-), Hunter Thompson devotee in the '70s.  During the early '80s my opinions changed, too.  While I have never been a party member, I bought some of the Reagan snake oil.  God help me.  The after taste is now very bitter.  I basically supported Clinton in the '90s.  By the mid '80s, though, I was very busy, travelling all over hell and creation, and beginning to raise a family.  I didn't pay much attention to politics but, to be fair, I sensed that something was pretty wrong during the '90s.  I couldn't put my finger on it.  It wasn't one policy or agreement, it was a feeling that something FUNDAMENTAL had gone askew - politically AND socially.

        Yeah, you nailed it.  I now feel a responsibility to at least TRY to wake up as many of my fellow boomers as possible.  It may be too late but I have to try.  

        Sometimes I want to say "Remember back in the '70s, when we were young, naive, idealistic, pot smokin', beer drinkin', girl chasin' rock and rollers?  Well, as amazing as it seems, we were right about a whole lot of things."

        LOL

        The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

        by Saint Jimmy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:02:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Most middle class people (29+ / 0-)

    would never have made it to the middle class without the New Deal. FDR implemented a series of reforms that were so successful they were utterly taken for granted by their beneficiaries. The ingratitude of middle class American will ensure that their children and grandchildren are forced to return to the brutal, grim, and often short lives of the pre-New Deal working class.

  •  It is true (7+ / 0-)

    When I went to U.T back in the fall 0f 1975, I think I got a grant that was just over $300 per semester. The was enough to pay for my tuition and most of my used books. And this was at a time when the University was on a crusade to become a university of the first degree.

    I got a part time job sweeping floors and delivering and assembling baby cribs which was just enough to pay for the garage apartment on Speedway, but I gradated without any debt.

    It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

    by se portland on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:02:52 AM PDT

  •  Education debt: modern indentured servitude. (16+ / 0-)

    Education debt is simply the 21st century version of shackles, chaining our children to the corporate hamster wheel.

  •  Republished to TexKos (5+ / 0-)

    Well done diary... please continue writing here! I look forward to more.

    Some drink deeply from the river of knowledge. Others only gargle. -- Woody Allen

    by cassandracarolina on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:41:48 AM PDT

  •  Who was in congress? (7+ / 0-)

    Here is an interesting chart of the average age of members of the house and senate by year.

    Boomers couldn't get into the senate before 1980  and the house before 1970 if 1945 is the start of the era.
    During the '80s the average congress critter was born in the '30s.

    Just some food for thought

    White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

    by BOHICA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:46:11 AM PDT

  •  The GI Bill (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BOHICA, Only Needs a Beat

    I think there was a cost to the GI Bill. (It wasn't in dollars and cents, though.)

    •  Still is (0+ / 0-)

      When I got  (1970), I got $175 per month to cover everything, tuition, books, living expenses etc.. By 1976 it was up to $292.  Still had to work part time.

      White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

      by BOHICA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:03:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a boomer... (5+ / 0-)

    that got the GI Bill (for being drafted during the Vietnam War) and used it to get a Bachelor of Science in Psychology and went on to get a Master of Science in Clinical Psychology. When I was finished I owed about $7,000 at a very low interest rate and was allowed to pay it off over 10 years. So I can't argue that I got a sweet deal compared to what it costs now to go to college.

    However, when I was finally out of school I found that a degree is psychology was basically worthless as far as finding a job. I did learn how to do research and write. These are good skills to have no matter what line of work you end up in.

    I had such a hard time finding a job because even the 'flipping burger' jobs were being denied me. I was even told that with my education I'd probably quit once I found a better job. I was at the point where I was not putting down my education and saying that I dropped out of high school when applying for the burger flipping jobs.

    I finally got a job as a fireman that you only needed a GED to get. After 13 years as a fireman I was able to go back to school and get a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science. This degree got me a job within a few weeks of graduating.

    The point here is I got the psychology degree because it was easy compared to degrees in engineering or science. The downside is even with a college degree in psychology I couldn't find work. Some college degrees just don't make you anymore marketable then a high school degree. I have friends who got college degrees in history or English or other liberal arts degrees that never found work in those disciplines. These were almost all GI Bill students (we all got drafted in those days). I only had 2 friends from high school that got work. One became a dentist and the other was an accountant.

    A college degree doesn't not guarantee a job even in the baby boomer days. I see that it is even more true today. In my college years engineering degrees or science degrees almost always guaranteed you a job. Now days it seems that those degrees are less of a guarantee but still much better than liberal arts degrees.

    I am lucky to be born a boomer and my heart goes out to those that have come after me because it is so much harder now days to 'get ahead' in life. The opportunities that I had are harder to find now of days.

  •  these diaries are very helpful to those of us (13+ / 0-)

    preparing to send our kids to college in the next few years.  I've been thoroughly educating myself about the student loan industry and have decided that we will not jump on board. Reading these comments reinforces that decision.  

    It will require re-imaging how my kids' college experience was supposed to be (goodbye leafy campus), but--hopefully--we'll replace that image with no debt anchor around their necks when they're 21.

    If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

    by livjack on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:05:58 AM PDT

    •  Sounds like a good (7+ / 0-)

      strategy, although, if your kids keep their grades up, you shouldn't rule out "leafy campuses." Despite their shocking sticker prices, many private universities have generous financial aid (made possible, in part, by redistributing the tuition dollars from the Romney-bracket kids they admit), including need-based grants and a wide array of talent scholarships.  

      You are reading my signature line. #hashtag

      by cardinal on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:19:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree. I went to Law School Virtually for free. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Only Needs a Beat
      •  Even state universities (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cardinal, TDDVandy, Only Needs a Beat

        can offer large scholarships to top students.  Both of our kids attended out-of-state State Universities with full or near-full tution scholarships - graduating in the last 5 years.  This was coming from a rural TX school with graduating classes of around 70.

        Their main scholarships were in engineering, with smaller ones from the music dept. and from our religious denomination.

        I know it does not work that way for many, but it IS still possible and worth working toward.

        The truth always matters.

        by texasmom on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:40:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe in Texas... (3+ / 0-)

          My kid just graduated with a 4.1+ from a High School that is ranked in the top 4% in the country.  He finished in the top 12 of his class.  He got a 30 on his ACT.  Guess how many scholarships he got?  0.  Not a dime.

          'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden "Dems kill terrorist. The GOP keeps them around as a boogeyman - so they can continue to steel."

          by RichM on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:14:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ours got better out-of-state offers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TDDVandy

            One went to Oklahoma and the other to University of Alabama Birmingham. None of the packages from TX schools came close.  

            When your son gets to college, do tell him to keep checking back for scholarships.  Make acquaintance with the secretary(ies) in his major departmental office and check with them about additional departmental scholarships.  Ours picked up several small ones that way.  One lasted for four semesters - simply because the original scholarship student never wrote the required thank you note to the alumni donor.  I doubt his/her parents know about that...

            There really is hope for still picking up funding while in college; it's just a bit of work.  

            The truth always matters.

            by texasmom on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:00:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Cardinal is correct. My oldest is at a private (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      texasmom, Kamakhya

      university right now. While the sticker price is higher the actual rate is competitive with public universities, particularly if you can meet needs-based criteria and/or your son or daughter has good grades and good SATs. With aid that he got because they wanted him on the lacrosse team and found some vice-dean of such-and-such grant, we've managed to limit his loan debt to about $5K a year and paid most of the rest as we go. Get on it early -- there are monthly payment plans available at most schools, but you've got to start paying in in April or May of the previous year in lots of cases.

      But more and more kids are opting to do two years at a community college then finish up at a four-year school, chopping their overall cost by a great deal.

    •  Tell them not to major in liberal arts (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattc129

      Sure, there are people who are successful despite the millstone around their necks that a liberal arts degree represents, but many are not successful and end up un(der)employed.

      Only major in liberal arts if you have a laser focus on whatever it is from a career perspective (eg only major in history to teach history, not because you really like history).

      Look at the employment rates and mean/median salaries at 1/5/10 years out from graduation in a chosen field.

      The world is very unfair to college students right now, but your kids have a choice to minimize their chance of posting in a thread like this one in 5 years if you and they do your homework. Don't blow it.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:58:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree, it's hard if you are really passionate, but (0+ / 0-)

        you'll be better off. All of my tech friends have great jobs (myself included), and while they may have more student loan debt than I do, they are able to make their payments and simply live.

        Others that majored in a liberal art? They either did Americorps, Peace Corps, are in grad school, or doing nothing. And while Americacorps and Peace Corps are honorable choices, I've always thought they were more the escape hatch for recent grads who have no idea what they want to do even after graduation.

      •  I used to think that mattered... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dilutedviking, New Rule

        And then I met people with IT degrees, Engineering degrees, and plenty others that are in the same boat, and can not get work.

        A liberal arts degree is there to prepare someone to think, to communicate. An English or History major isn't about a specific career path, and yes that does hurt.

        Majors with a direct career path look more appealing, but trying to rework an IT or other degree into another discipline isn't easy. Plenty have done it, because they didn't have a choice.

        What is missing from the discussion is why are those degrees so undervalued? Why isn't the ability to think, and communicate given more value?

        Consider when you've read any technical manual, a website with incomprehensible writing, or simply emails from around the office that required a follow up phone call because it left you saying "Huh?".

        The Liberal Arts people were squeezed out first, because  "anyone can do that", whereas the Engineers, and the Sales department were seen as 'productive' and 'necessary'. All the people who used to make work flow smoothly and allowed the Engineers to worry about engineering are now gone.

        We need people with Liberal Arts degrees in the workforce. They see problems differently, they are able to articulate their positions, but those qualities were some of the first to lose value to our employers.

        That in itself is a metaphor for the last 20 years.

        •  I hear this all the time (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          soros, mconvente

          It isn't true. Liberal arts majors are no better on average at 'perspective' and general problem solving than anyone else is, particularly technical specialists like doctors, finance people, and engineers who 'creatively solve problems' all day, every day and who have the benefit of a deep technical understanding of their field.

          And yes, there are people with technical training who cannot find work. Nothing is guaranteed in life. But if you take the median outcome or do any reasonable analysis, there is no comparison. Salary, employment, job satisfaction, all point toward liberal arts not being a good idea.

          But don't take my word for it, do your own research. Just don't post on Kos in 5 years about how terrible it is that your kid with a masters in art history can't find a job.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:15:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bean counter, outsourcing, and profits (0+ / 0-)

            All look to reduce the labor force to their minimum levels. It should matter if doing so would hurt the company in the short, or long term. I've rarely seen it thought out further than X company can make 2% more if they lay off employees.

            Anecdotal evidence is hard to qualify isn't it? What I've seen doesn't line up with other perspectives, and that isn't a surprise.

            I've worked in places where there are plenty of smart people with technical degrees, but they do tend to approach the problem in the way they were trained. That approach is used for almost every problem.  

            Most of the time it does work. It isn't necessarily the most cost effective solution, or the most innovative one.

            Divergent views on a common problem improve the chances  for success in my experience.

            The other half of the argument is of equal or greater importance. Communication is lacking at most businesses. I have seen it first hand at my (former) workplace, and have anecdotal stories from just about everyone I know about a 'Failure to communicate' moment that has complicated, or extended a task.

            What I ask is should we can continue to squeeze the engineer and have them doing the searches for their own travel, have them do the data entry, writing, and proofreading of their reports? Companies are taking away their support and making them do all the work.  They do it because they have not figured out how to eliminate the engineer, yet.

            An engineer is more productive when they are focused on doing engineering tasks. Paying someone engineer, or doctor, or lawyer wages while they navigate the web booking flights, doing data entry, and proofreading should be grossly overpaying them for skills they are not using.  

            Engineers are typically salary though, so instead we just expect them to put in an extra ten, fifteen hours a week.  It doesn't cost the company anything more than a laptop to take home, or a bit of electricity to keep the lights on in the office.

            I think there is a place in the labor force for Liberal Arts degrees. It is, obviously, a view not shared by everyone. Bean counters hate it, but most of the Professionals I know would personally love to have the assistance so they could do what they consider their jobs.

            We focus on a shrinking labor pool, with the only good jobs in smaller and smaller numbers instead of taking a step back and wondering if this is really the correct path.

            •  lol (0+ / 0-)

              Then be the bean counter.

              "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

              by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:35:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Look into hotel management with your students. (0+ / 0-)

      One note of advice, hotel management degrees offer management jobs that pay well.  The industry will always need managers for their high end properties.  I work in the industry, it will grow and prosper because the wealthy will travel and spend money.  The job allows the graduate to travel and work as well.  Summer work experience in the industry will make the graduate more marketable.  Get a summer job as a night auditor or bellman or even a dishwasher so they understand each level of work in the industry.  The work is seasonal, and the industry depends on student workers.  

      Cornell in NY and CalPoly-Pamona are the top two universities today, but there are many more.  Undergraduate work in accounting is a plus to add to the degree.  Community college work in accounting will transfer to university study in hotel management at any university.

      There are options out there, we just need to steer the student towards a job promoting degree rather than a degree that is easy to obtain for the diploma on the wall.

      "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

      by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:34:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have $120K in student debt (13+ / 0-)

    for a degree that was golden for about 80 years, until about the time I graduated in 2008.

    Now I have no job and $1500/month in student loan payments that I can't get rid of anyway but death.

    I'm on the income-based repayment plan, so I pay far less than that per month, but the unpaid interest gets added to the principle every year (for some of the loans), and it's compound interest working against me so it's only a matter of time before the debt gets too big to get rid of even if I somehow find a good job.

    It seems pretty hopeless sometimes.

    •  Don't completely despair. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1

      Income-based repayment now comes with a statute of limitations, thanks to Obama.  After 25 years of making payments, the remaining total is forgiven no matter how large it is.  This puts it on an even footing with all the other repayment plans, which (except for the standard) also have 25-year repayment terms.

      I'm the hopeless one, as I've got $50 in student loan debt at 40 years of age, and no stable career or job.  No continuous repayment, no statute of limitations.  I'll die with those loans.

      •  nah (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dilutedviking

        a) you have to do certain things to get started on that (refinance?)

        b) it's only the government ones that count at all with that. the private ones don't, and those are the highest interest rate ones that I have.

        c) 25 years is a heck of a long time to have no money, no home, no hope.

        •  Nope, don't have to refinance. (0+ / 0-)

          You have to just select IBR specifically, and pass their income requirements.  Note that that is DIFFERENT then ICR (Income Contingent Repayment), which is often a far worse deal.

          But it is true: IBR is only available under FFEL and Direct Loans.  However, from what I understand, you can now consolidate private loans under the federal Direct Loan program (though that's not my area of expertise) - look at the federal Direct Loans site to make sure!

          •  ok (0+ / 0-)

            so it's only if you are still in IBR that entire time, it looks like. So if I start making more money 20 years from now, then it's not forgiven (depends on how much, etc.)

            Moreover, that forgiveness is taxable as income when it is forgiven - in other words, if I have $600k forgiven at the end of 25 years (compound interest), I will owe the government a TON of money that I probably won't have.

            finally, there are certain private loans that were available my first year of grad school that are subject to consolidation through the government (but they are already eligible for IBR without consolidation).

            However, congress stopped those my second year, and thereafter I accrued some big purely private loans that are not eligible for consolidation under the Direct Loan Program. They are, of course, my highest interest rate loans.

        •  And also... (0+ / 0-)

          ...if student loans are the only thing between you and homelessess, you've got much bigger problems then paying off student loans.  Defaulting is ALWAYS an option.  So is forbearance, which is almost always granted.

      •  I forgot to add: d) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dilutedviking

        d) most of the expert analysis I've read is that we can't really count on the program actually lasting 25 years, so it's better to do anything you can to get out of that cycle of adverse-compound-interest because you could be stuck with it if things change within the next 25 years.

    •  It's it hopeless (0+ / 0-)

      It's Capitalism in its final stages.  

      I find hope in (a) history, (b) marx, (c) socialism.

      I have believe we're going towards socialism otherwise I get depresssed.  In fact, I think we're already in it (started at WWII).  

      But leaving one system for another is very messy.  Think about all the revolutions that deposed the kinds.  The Capitalist won't give up easily.  But over time, the ocean of socialism can't be contained.  Your debt will add with other defts to the point of making debts look like sins (which they used to be--if you were the loaner).

      Peace

      We're living in world fascism, but coming up to world socialism. But it doesn't happen without a fight.

      by Deadicated Marxist on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:35:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm right there with you, in terms of debt amount (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jeopardydd

      and predicament.

      The daily anxiety and frustration that comes with it is soul crushing, isn't it?

  •  Politicians only care about two things (0+ / 0-)

    1. Money (to run campaigns)
    2. Votes

    If you can't bring the money and you don't bring the votes, you are not a factor in their rarefied world.  They see a generation that has not voted in sufficient numbers to affect their collective elections and reelections.  I am not blaming anyone (my generation was the exact same way at your age) but until you all get out and vote they aren't going to even consider doing shit or shinola.

    "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

    by Sychotic1 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:20:28 AM PDT

    •  Why is it that we heard so much about the big (4+ / 0-)

      youth turnout in 2008 and then when politicians completely ignored virtually every issue that matters to that generation we hear how they aren't turning out to vote.  People, in general, don't just go out and vote because someone here on DKos tut tuts about how such and such group doesn't have high enough turn out.  I mean, we know that Latinos have a low rate of turnout, but I don't see people here telling Latino activists the shit I see people saying about younger people here.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:50:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am just saying it like it is (0+ / 0-)

        When I was young, the same issues apply.  Every group that has low turn out faces the same undervaluing of their issues.  You know it, I know it, the politicians act on it.  

        I am not preaching, I am simply stating a fact.

        The other big truth is that Money actually outweighs votes, so it takes a LOT of votes to outweigh that money issue.

        "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

        by Sychotic1 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:01:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which doesn't make a lot of sense to say (0+ / 0-)

          after all the crowing about the huge youth turnout in 2008 for Obama, and in general.  Obviously it's possible to get the youth vote out, they're just doing it wrong.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:34:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The lower taxes part isn't right. (0+ / 0-)

    Take a look at the average state/local tax burden on the right hand side.

    While many of our parents have had nothing but hunky-dory experiences with low taxes and a shrinking government -- thanks to the fact that, by and large, they came of age when the New Deal-era big government was still in place -- Generation Y has already experienced the direct effects of small government, up close and personal.  And we don't like it.
    University funding is mostly a state matter, and the states haven't cut taxes. Just to use Texas as an example, flip through time and watch as education's percentage plummets and Health and Human Services begins to eat the budget alive.

    This is in large part Medicaid (Medicare is funded at the federal level, but the federal government only pays about half the cost of Medicaid.)  This is why Texas flirted with withdrawing from Medicaid altogether.

  •  This is why college should be cheap or free (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, mattc129, dilutedviking

    The whole point of having the students pay for it presupposes a guaranteed return, like any other service.  

    Only, a degree is not a guarantee of anything--- colleges can only offer an education. They have no control over anything after that.  

    With a service, the vendor has control over whether you get that service or not.  If you pay the money, the vendor gives you the service.  A car dealer controls whether you drive off with a new car.  A realtor controls whether or not you get the keys to your new house.  But a university does not control whether or not you get a job in your field of study.  

    Having the student actually pay for the education relies on use pretending that the university does have this control.  That is why this system is doomed to fail.

    Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

    by nominalize on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:27:59 AM PDT

    •  The argument I read in the comment (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dilutedviking, TDDVandy

      Is that a college education is akin to going to a casino.

      There is not a guarantee of winning it big, but there is the lure of having a chance to do better.

      And it is much the same line we feed to our children. I tell my kids that if they want to succeed they will need to think about college.

      If you don't play, you can't win, right?

      Colleges are part of the infrastructure that we have been dismantling over the past 20+ years. We are slowly gutting education from K-12, college. Our roads, bridges, water and electricity infrastructure is in the same state.

      We've done it because a group of people would rather have a few dollars in their own pockets, than for society to provide the basics that let us all succeed.

      It is time for us to stop them.

      •  And, the truly sad part (0+ / 0-)

        is that many members of the upper-middle class (i.e. $100k to $200k a year) think that this is about them.

        Their tax bills are tiny in comparison to the conservative millionaires who really want Republicans in office.

        28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

        by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:16:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not quite as bad as a casino (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LostBuckeye

        but yes--- a college education, like anything else in life, is a guarantee of nothing in your future.  It ought to help your odds, but people (in all fields) are finding out otherwise.  Since college is touted as a necessity and a guarantee, they feel rightly ripped off.

        In general, like most conservative policies, rising tuition is about risk reduction--- the 99% get more risk, the 1% get less.  Instead of states and countries taking a financial risk by paying for the education of young adults who might drop out or 'waste' their degree, it pushes the risk onto the young adults themselves, to add to the cost of time in school (instead of working already).  It's a double cost.

        The problem is, the double cost doesn't just fall on the failures, it falls on the successful as well.  The people who opted out of public college funding told themselves the increased earnings would allow students to pay this money back (ironically, negating the increased earnings, but whatever).   However, the increased earnings aren't happening. And that is the source of this debt problem.  

        The fact is, the same people who opted out of paying for the younger folks' college (via public schools) with the notion that their lower tax burden would spur them to create more jobs and better jobs... well, these people did not create more jobs.  And most people make less now than they did 30 years ago for the same job (despite being twice as productive).   Two entire generations have been victims of a bait-and-switch... and THAT is why they relate to the Occupy movement.  

        Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

        by nominalize on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 08:03:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Stimulus- How much would forgiving loans be? (5+ / 0-)

    I brought this up before the Stimulus. Not aloud really. But think about how many people you know that are saddled by $100,000.00. It forces people boring for law schools to go straight to a job they hate when repayment comes knocking.

    I was lucky enough to get enough scholarships and subsidized loans that I have repaid everything. Still I would not be upset if those not lucky enough had a substantial part forgiven.

    I have to think those same people would be buying cars, houses, whatever, they work hard only to keep up with rediculous student loan interest.

    I wonder if it would be more or less than the Stimulus was?

  •  Republicans will have more than this one problem (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattc129, Sychotic1, TDDVandy, elengul

    The younger generation has become more and more left-leaning.  So, this diary is correct in what it says, of course.  But, the republicans also have to deal with a very changing democraphic in many other ways as well.  I just heard on a news broadcast that Asians are now the #1 group immigrating into the U.S......yep, even more than all those evil Mexicans from our Southern Boarder :-)

    In addition, whites are becoming less of a dominant racial group year after year in America.  Yes, they're still in the majority....but when you look at America from a "white vs. all-minority population", it's not all that big.  And, it is getting less big every year.  And, "minorities" lean left in a big way (no, not all minorities, of course).  And, I think as the republican policies affect more and more minorities, the more left the minorities will become.

    The truth is sometimes very inconvenient.

    by commonsensically on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:53:46 AM PDT

    •  Yep. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      New Rule

      White voters under 30 went for Obama with 55 percent of the vote -- a lot of the reason Obama won voters under 30 by such a big margin was that a lot more of them were not white.

      (I'm white, of course, but I'm also not in the "we're losing our country" crowd.)

      I think Gen Y will be different in other ways as well.  When we start having kids and buying homes, if that ever happens, we're not going to go for the knee-jerk "good schools" (read: schools with few minorities) like past generations.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:54:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  All you art-history major wannabes (0+ / 0-)

    ..just need to get off your lazy-asses and get a job!

    To my eyes - Today's college affordability problem is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm unaware of percentages, but many, many young people aren't worried about the cost of higher education but are terrified of the cost of living with no income now and little on the horizon.

    There are innumerable reasons for a person not being "cut out" for a college degree. There is no excuse whatsoever in a country as rich as ours that would preclude them from the chance to earn a living and have a decent, productive life.

    I want a living planet, not just a living room.

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:58:57 AM PDT

  •  My oldest daughter will be a senior next year (5+ / 0-)

    In talking with her, we've decided that we want her to go to college without taking out any student loans--even if this means only being able to go part-time. Rather than go off somewhere for college, she is going to live at home with me. Even if it takes her 8 years to get a bachelor's degree, she will still be better off than a lot of kids who might finish up in half that time, but end up saddled with so much debt they can't afford to live on their own until they are 30.

    •  Consider getting the first two years at (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tonyahky, LostBuckeye, Kamakhya

      community college.  Here in California you can get all of your pre-requisites at community college at about $50 bucks a credit plus book costs.  That way she only needs two years of credits at a four-year institution.  No one cares where you do your first two years, they only care where you graduate from.

      "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

      by Sychotic1 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:54:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  great plan (0+ / 0-)

      I salute you in this, not all students can afford or need to go away to college.  Some students are better off staying home and maturing before they are thrust out into the real world.  Great job Tonya, and don't take any crap about keeping your daughter home and getting her through school without a huge debt.  KUDOS.

      "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

      by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:39:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  all generations of ordinary people (6+ / 0-)

    are in deep trouble, this isn't about generations but about classes

    1) The median household with a person between the ages of 45 to 54 saw its net worth fall by more
    than 45 percent between 2004 and 2009, from $172,400 in 2004 to just $94,200 in 2009 (all amounts
    are in 2009 dollars). If the median late baby boomer household took all of the wealth they had
    accumulated during their lifetime, they would still owe approximately 45 percent of the price of a
    typical house1 and have no other assets whatsoever.2
    2) The situation for early baby boomers is somewhat worse. The median household with a person
    between the ages of 55 and 64 saw its wealth fall by almost 50 percent from $315,400 in 2004 to
    $159,800 in 2009. This net worth would be sufficient to allow these households, who are at the peak
    ages for wealth accumulation, to cover approximately 90 percent of the cost of the typical house, if
    they had no other assets.
    3) As a result of the plunge in house prices, many baby boomers now have little or no equity in their
    home. According to our calculations, of those who own their primary residence, nearly 30 percent of
    households headed by someone between the ages of 45 to 54 will need to bring money to their
    closing (to cover their mortgage and transactions costs) if they were to sell their home. More than 15
    percent of the early baby boomers, people between the ages of 55 and 64, will need to bring money
    to a closing when they sell their home.
    Center for Economic Policy and Research report on the affect of the crash on baby boomer net worth.

    The Y generation can't depend on their baby boomer parents to help them as the baby boomer's parents helped them because while they may have had it great when they were young,  they are as economically challenged as any one now.  And they can't get jobs easily if they lose them at their age, any more than the very young trying to enter the market can get jobs.

    We are all being screwed.   That more greatest generation people and more baby boomers buy into social wedge issues is a fact of life.  When the y generation is a lot older, they won't keep up with the times as well either, its human, not evil.

    So the y generation needs to vote, every time.  Because we are all in this ship together, and if it sinks, it taking the 99% with it.

    •  Gen Y is now helping our parents when we can (0+ / 0-)

      It's a reversal of the traditional trend, and a very sad one.

      •  Very sad (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattc129

        My baby boomer parents and uncles had the amazing benefit of having parents who could help them when times were tough.

        My siblings and I will get nowhere near that kind of support.

        The recession/depression hit dad's once lucrative business hard. My parents have no retirement savings, and, at 65 and 64 respectively, are living month to month, even coming to their underemployed, 20-something-year-old children for help.

        Thank you Republicans

      •  The boomers do this too. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattc129

        We moved back to California so our parents could live and die with us at home.  It was a sacrifice for us but the alternative was not an option.  Great to hear you are helping your parents.

        "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

        by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:41:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Went to USL in late 70s (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RichM, Brooke In Seattle

    (now University of LA ) and tuition was dirt cheap. I paid for it in large part with a part time job that I got through work study. It was an on-campus job running the cash register and clearing the lanes at the rec center. After we closed up the other guy that worked there and I would rack up and shoot pool for a few hours before locking up.

    Tuition + dorm + books + meal ticket came out to less than $1500 a semester if I recall correctly.  I even lived in a town 30 miles away and a school bus picked me up and dropped me off at the corner where I lived free of charge!  There was no reason whatsoever NOT to attend university back then.  

    Went back to get my MA a few years ago and even though I worked almost full time during the day I ended up taking about 30K out in loans.

  •  Another take... (0+ / 0-)

    It's possible for almost anyone to attend a state school for a much more reasonable tuition than out of state or private institutions.

    I get a little frustrated hearing about student loans and then figuring out someone is going to an expensive out of state private school.

    The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

    by jgkojak on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:18:18 AM PDT

    •  State schools, and public schools in general (7+ / 0-)

      have ever rising tuitions as of late.  And your comment illustrates part of what this diary is talking about.  Maybe you should pay attention when people tell you something is a problem instead of just calling them whiners who want to go to expensive schools.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:26:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rising, yes (0+ / 0-)

        but I go to a state school in MA and while I'll graduate with some debt, it won't be crushing.

        My school costs about 8K a year (it would be more if I lived there). I do get a Pell (up until this coming year) so that cuts down on the loans I need to take out. But even if I had to take out loans for every penny of tuition and it takes me five years (which it actually will!) that's 40K of debt. It's a debt, mind you, but it's not the "150K! 200K!" figures routinely thrown around as horror stories. You're going to have debt, sure, but there's a big stretch between 40K and 150K and you don't have to go to BU.

        And mine will be a lot less than 40K because, not only the Pell, but I did the first two years at the local community college, which is even cheaper. I didn't have to take out a penny of loans for those first two years. All my debt will be from the last three.

        There are ways to do it. It's not completely debt-free, and you aren't going to be going to BU, but there's ways to do it.

        BTW, I'm 47 years old. I'm no kid. The kids in my classes actually have an easier time of it, because they don't have my responsibilities (I have kids of my own) and many of them get some help from home. (Not all, for sure).

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:10:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good for you in getting a Pell grant... (4+ / 0-)

          Middle class students don't get that luxury.  In Colorado - a state school cost $20k per year all total.  For in state students.  If it takes 5 years to graduate (pretty typical), that means $100k in debt.  I'm 47 too and have two kids in college and one on the way.  I think your view is WAY skewed.

          'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden "Dems kill terrorist. The GOP keeps them around as a boogeyman - so they can continue to steel."

          by RichM on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:02:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That 20K (0+ / 0-)

            Must include room and board, yes?

            Yes, in MA it would get up to about that if you were paying room and board. One good thing about MA, however, is that there is a state school within commuting distance in just about every corner of the state. (Only the outer reaches of the Cape and the southern Berkshires would this not apply). So, you commute. As I said, it's doable, not easy.

            If the state schools in CO are 20K without room and board, yes, that is seriously fucked up. And I know CO is a bigger state so commuting in some instances may not be possible.

            "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

            by ChurchofBruce on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:46:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Room and board... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              burlydee

              CO is a big state.  Commuting is not always and option.

              'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden "Dems kill terrorist. The GOP keeps them around as a boogeyman - so they can continue to steel."

              by RichM on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:00:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  My question is where do you live? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattc129, Brooke In Seattle, burlydee

          Is someone footing the rent, the food, the utilities?

          Lots of kids do not have the option of living at home (I know I didn't) and unless someone can underwrite their living arrangements, the costs you are quoting have no relevance.

          I don't know if things have changed, but I didn't qualify for a Pell grant because my parents made too much money.  It did not matter that they wouldn't let me live with them and wouldn't give me a dime for school...all that mattered was they claimed me on their taxes at a point in the last two years.

          "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

          by Sychotic1 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:49:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I pay rent (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TDDVandy

            That's why I said it is often times easier for my typical-age classmates, who have help that I don't.

            Try working full time and going to school full time at my age. Yikes. (Although that's an energy issue, not a money issue! :)).

            Nowadays, if you're not living with your parents and not getting any support from them--right now, not in the past two years--you're independent, and their income does not apply. Now, you might have to skip a year of school to establish the independence, but if you don't live with them, they don't count.

            "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

            by ChurchofBruce on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:42:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  So much wrong with your comment. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1, LostBuckeye

      I'm from NJ, my brother went to Rutgers, the NJ state school system. It has 3 branches: New Brunswick (the main one, where he went), Newark, and Camden.

      IN STATE tuition for a student who lives on campus is $24,017. http://admissions.rutgers.edu/...

      So how exactly are we supposed to reconcile that? Sure, it's half of what comparable private schools cost, but it's not like it's in the low thousands or high hundreds of our parents' day.

      •  12K w/out room and board (0+ / 0-)

        30 hrs a week x 8.00 an hour x 50 wks = $12000

        So, live off campus, have a job (work more hrs when school is out), and you probably get out w/15-20K in loans.

        Is it hard to do that?  Yes.

        Is it impossible?  No.

        The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

        by jgkojak on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:54:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK, so commute 90 min each way then? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TDDVandy, LostBuckeye

          Because even without traffic that's how long it would take to get there each way. With the cost of gas and maintenance, plus the opportunity cost of commuting time, where would students have time to do their homework and study?

          Also, who in their right mind can work 30 hours a week as a full time student?

          Just keep your head in the sand, why don't you. I don't get why our parents' generation (assuming you're one of them since you are seemingly in the boat of their preferences and attitude) can't understand what it's like for Gen Y these days.

          •  Most of the people I knew (0+ / 0-)

            Worked and went to school.  Some worked full time in summer and part during the year, but avg about 25-30hrs.  

            The reason we don't get Gen Y is, frankly, we hear a whole bunch of WHINING.  A lot of Gen Y kids, even kids from humble backgrounds, have conveniences and expectations that were not part of the previous generation.  

            The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

            by jgkojak on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:48:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like expectation of college being $1k, not $25k? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mconvente

              I'm as hard on my generation's choice of major as anyone, and I have plenty of comments showing that. Just look through my comment list. I truly believe young people need to reconsider going to college for college's sake and research the type and availability of jobs based on major choice.

              However, it's beyond me when older people like you don't understand what it means to pay $25,000 a year instead of $2,500. Do I need to remind you of Virginia Foxx who said she worked her way through school? Great for her, her college probably cost 1/10 or less than what mine did.

              If you want to talk about whiners, you're on the wrong blog.

    •  I don't know if you were paying attention (0+ / 0-)

      But the diary specifically mentioned state-school tuition.  Even for in-state tuition, it's often impossible to pay out of pocket for most families.  Working your way through college as some of our parents did is simply not feasible: if you can make enough money without a college degree to pay $10k a year in tuition, in addition to living on, then you don't really need to go to college.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:56:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for putting your perspective out there. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TDDVandy

    It is just a travesty what has happened with higher ed costs in the last generation.

  •  I'm old enough to have been told (9+ / 0-)

    that I was competing against workers from all over the world. I didn't realize that I'd be competing for lower wages.

    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer

    by CFAmick on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:32:54 AM PDT

    •  That's exactly what Mitt was saying (4+ / 0-)

      during his speech with the WaWa touchscreen gaffe.  He said the challenge with federal government is that they don't compete. That the federal government doesn't realize they are in competition with over governments around the world.

      What he and his cronies want is for the US to race to the bottom so they can have higher profits from American labor by destroying American living standards and reduce the American worker to third world income levels.  They want  sweatshops and workhouses back in the USA like in the good ol' days before unions.  

      That's what "government competition" means to the GOP.

      Would we be so happy to have a military that dwarfs all others combined if it was a line item deduction on our paychecks next to FICA."

      by Back In Blue on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:36:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A related thought I had last night (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sychotic1

        The US government is like Wal-Mart and McDonald's rolled into one. It's economy of scale allows us to provide ourselves with services at the most efficient and cost effective rate.

        The monied interests own "mom and pop stores." They don't like economies of scale, because there's less profit in it for them. Their goal is to eliminate the economies of scale provided by our government, and to profit from the difference in cost.

        When Romney says that the federal government doesn't compete, he means that they do compete, too well.

        "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer

        by CFAmick on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:00:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yep. My 17 year old just shocked the everything (11+ / 0-)

    out of his grandparents the other day by suggesting it may not be worth it to go to college.  They really didn't get the inconvenient detail of debt slavery that comes with higher ed, even though their 45 year old daughter who's a veterinarian will be in debt due to tuition until she's 80, should she happen to live and continue working that long.  My 17 year old is aware of this and is simply questioning whether that is the life he wants for himself.  The old answers for "success" in life no longer completely apply.  This is a crisis we have to solve.

    "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

    by middleagedhousewife on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:43:38 AM PDT

    •  question is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      middleagedhousewife

      is the degree they are going for going to pay for itself?

      I mean if you are going to become a dr. nurse, engineer, etc etc I mean college is a must.

      Now if you are going for other degrees, they may well not be worth it.  Is a business degree really necessary?  I would say not.

      liberal arts degrees are not worth it IMHO.

      A degree for a sake of a degree may not be worth it anymore, there must be a strategy behind the degree.

      Bad is never good until worse happens

      by dark daze on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:22:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is the sad part (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LostBuckeye, middleagedhousewife

        Even in the 80s, there were tons of us who were left out of the college track for lack of money.  Now the only ones who will get a degree are those who do it for the money and the reality is that less and less degrees will be "worth it" for anyone but the rich.

        "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

        by Sychotic1 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:44:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That is scary! (3+ / 0-)

      My daughter wants to be a veterinarian too.  She is entering university this fall.  The cost of one year at UC Berkeley for room, meal plan, tuition, books, and fees is approximately $35,000/year.  However, she received grant and scholarship money which will put our cost at $10,500/year.  I am going to pay that out of pocket, so she should, with any luck, graduate with no debt.  However, Veterinary School is expensive.  4 years at UC Davis is currently $220K.  According to their website, the average debt load of graduates in 2011 was $118,772.  Actually, they have an interesting table which shows how debts have increased since 1993.

      While $120K is huge, hopefully she will be able to pay it off before she retires!

      I am totally fascinated with this conversation.  I, too, told my daughter that she absolutely had to go to college from the time she was 3.  She has been actively working towards this goal since middle school.  

      For those who are curious, this is what she went through in her quest for an affordable education: She applied to 13 universities,  7 public (4 in CA, 3 out of state) and 6 private, and was accepted to 8 (all 7 public and 1 private).  She had a 3.85 unweighted GPA and earned 3 AA degrees concurrently with her high school degree; 600+ community service hours, and a part time job as a kennel technician at a veterinary hospital.  Her test scores were ok, but a little low for the schools she applied to.  In the end, the only school that offered her enough money to graduate without debt was UC Berkeley, and only then because she was awarded an incredible scholarship.  Every other school, would have forced her to take upwards of 10K-20K/yr in debt (both subsidized and unsubsidized loans) after my contribution and all grants and scholarships.  The private university (Boston University) did offer a healthy package, but at $60K/year, even the $35K they offered was nowhere near enough.  I am considered working class by California standards.  

  •  Diaries complaining about the obvious are nice... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ammo Hauler

    ... But don't expect a damn thing to change unless lots more people become willing to go much farther in protecting their own interests.

    The fascist class warriors that conmen like Romney represents will never stop their war against working Americans until they win and we're all serfs, or until we make their lives such an absolute living hell that they have to give up their class war or die.

    Sorry to rain on everyone's paradde, but the only thing that stops greed is the fear of great bodily harm. If you don't believe me, pick up a history book.

    "We see things not as they are, but as we are." - John Milton

    by Jasonhouse on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:01:59 AM PDT

    •  Sadly, that is the reality (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wblynch

      The rich and powerful will never agree to changes in the status quo without the implicit fear of such fates as being guillotined or overrun.

      Even Gandhi with his non-violent tactics had behind him the looming possibility of a 100 million Indians turning violent on their British overlords.

      Somehow, the Occupy movement has to finesse change with similar tactics.

  •  Easy now... (4+ / 0-)

    As a member of Generations Jones (between boomer and X), I can say that I am acutely aware of this issue.  I have two in college right now.  Going to State schools.  With room, board, tuition and books and supplies - it is $20k per year.  How can anybody afford that?  When I went to a state school - it was $438 per semester for tuition and books were another $100.  We are robbing our future.

    'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden "Dems kill terrorist. The GOP keeps them around as a boogeyman - so they can continue to steel."

    by RichM on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:55:00 AM PDT

  •  Having worked my through college (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1, dilutedviking, Kamakhya

    and though my family was not dirt poor we did live close to it.  I have always looked at the cost in relation to what I was capable of earning.  In my first year, 1976, the cost of one semester for a full time student was $275 and minimum wage was $2.30/hr.  In gross dollar terms a semester of tuition took 120 hours of minimum wage work.  At the current minimum wage of $7.25/hr my equivalent labor would generate about $866.  Where can you find a major state university offering full-time tuition at $866 a semester?

    It is not just that the cost of college has gone up, and dramatically so, it also that the earning potential for the typical student has declined even more in relation to the cost of college.

    Students today cannot work their way through school.  No chance, none.  Even working to pay for part-time college is very hard.  College costs are such that an average earning family has been completely priced out of the market.  Debt has been the only option for millions of kids for many years.  And increasingly the jobs at the end of college don't make the debt worthwhile.

    For over two generations the GI Bill and affordable college contributed immensely to making this country great. In less than a generation economic access to college has been gutted.  We are in deep sh*t despite the fact that it has been obvious for decades where we were heading. Sadly, we have no leaders willing to truly champion higher education and restore it accessibility to all economic classes.

  •  My cohorts who had to endure $115 per semester (7+ / 0-)

    in tuition costs including parking permit to go to college turned primarily into right wing free marketeers.  There is one who after graduation went into the military to learn to fly jets, which costs the US taxpayers a pretty dime.  Now flying for a commercial airline after collecting his generous military pension, he ended up being the most obnoxious rabid free marketeers of the bunch.

    Which demonstrates the challenge of when you help some people, they end resenting anyone else getting the same helping hand.  Just like corporate fat cats.

    My body of workers will show the world that the problems of mankind can be solved. Through the process of sharing and just redistribution, the needs of all can be met. - World Teacher Maitreya

  •  I hope (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT

    your assessment is correct.  And it sucks for those trying to pay for college now.

    http://www.from-the-bunker.com

    by jham710 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:20:33 AM PDT

  •  Careful (4+ / 0-)
    While many of our parents have had nothing but hunky-dory experiences with low taxes and a shrinking government -- thanks to the fact that, by and large, they came of age when the New Deal-era big government was still in placeGeneration Y has already experienced the direct effects of small government, up close and personal.  And we don't like it.
    Anyone who is under retirement age is in the same boat, whether it be lack of a social safety net, lack of affordable insurance, lack of affordable education, and so on.  Diaries like this that divide by demographic risk falling down a slippery slope that just lead to finger pointing amongst people who should be united against the real problem: 32 years of trickle down economics.

    Here's the deal: anyone who is under 65, anyone who has few net assets, anyone who cares about the health of this society, has no business voting for the continuation of 32 years of Reagan policies, and has no business voting GOP.  

    As for those over 65 who are voting GOP, do you not care about your descendents?

  •  The University of California (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Rule, AoT, CSPAN Junkie, Churchill

    didn't even have tuition until Gov. Reagan decided it was a "good" idea. Feh!

    These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert, to fleece the people... -Abraham Lincoln

    by HugoDog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:13:26 AM PDT

  •  How about in the South ? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TDDVandy

    Will demographic trends help make it less "solid" for the GOP?

    Trend seems to have started w/ 2008 but reverted in 2010..

    "..The political class cannot solve the problems it created. " - Jay Rosen

    by New Rule on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:52:01 AM PDT

    •  Some parts, sure (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      New Rule

      The problem, though, is that many of my friends my age in Tennessee actually seem to be even more conservative than ever.

      Texas might be different just because of the large (and increasing) Hispanic population, and Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida are already fairly swingy, but that swath from South Carolina over to Louisiana seems out of reach.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:59:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Houston, er, Knoxville, we have a counterexample ! (0+ / 0-)

        So age cohort is not quite destiny... thanks for an insider perspective.  

        Wonder what it would take for things to shift there and why regressive values are so entrenched vs. other regions ?

        "..The political class cannot solve the problems it created. " - Jay Rosen

        by New Rule on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:36:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Whose Fault? (0+ / 0-)

    My God I get pissed every time I hear someone blame another generation or group for doing or not doing something the damned complainers should be doing.

    Who are you going to blame when we're all dead?

    Get off your ass and do what needs doing.  Get your (lazy ass) generation up out of bed and off the stinking facebook and get to work.

    You have to make this nation and world what you want it to be.  

    Don't like it?  Change it.

    Don't like the big money making the decisions?  Then ignore the ads and make it what you want it to be.  If you don't, someone else will and you probably won't like what they do.

  •  Of course the correct response (0+ / 0-)

    is to blame those who had a better deal than you got and blame them for being "greedy", not to try to organize to get yourself that same kind of deal.  Just like in Wisconsin, vote against those public union workers "sliding by on the cushion"  and blame them for being "greedy" instead of organizing new private sector unions.  Scott walker appreciates your POV.  Truly, he does.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:06:13 PM PDT

    •  One other thing (0+ / 0-)

      I'll bet that you think all baby boomers were white, upper-middle-class and suburban.  Well, this may come as a shock to yu, but no more than 15% of that generation or any other generation met that description.

      I know it strikes you as impossible tht some eeeeeeeeevil privileged spoiled boomer would have to go into the military to have hd any hope of going to college, but by the time he got out 4 years later was too fucked up to deal with college.  Yeah, there's no such thing as tht happening.    That couldn't possibly be the life story of hundreds of thousands of boomers, including me.  Been to your recruiter yet?  Or are you softer than us boomers?

      The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

      by ActivistGuy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:13:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not blaming them because they got a better (0+ / 0-)

      deal.  And it's not blaming everyone who is a boomer.  It's blaming people who got that deal and refuse to admit that things may have changed, and, most of all, blaming those who benefited from a well funded public university system and then fuck over those of us in the younger generations.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 05:37:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great Discussion - N/T (0+ / 0-)

    "Upward, not Northward" - Flatland, by EA Abbott

    by linkage on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:35:09 PM PDT

  •  Gen Y doesn't even get its own name (0+ / 0-)

    I feel bad about that.

    --A Gen X'er.

    Barack Obama is not a secret Marxist class warrior who wants to redistribute wealth in America. But I'll still vote for him, anyway.

    by looty on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:25:18 PM PDT

  •  Other opportunities in education. (0+ / 0-)

    Let me mention there are other opportunities that are job related and will get you a good job after completion.  

    Railroad management degrees are a two year degree, coupled with good management courses and accounting will  land you a good paying job with a railroad.  Even a dispatcher's job requires a degree today, they pay very well.

    A good cosmetology education allows you to work and own your own business.  My hairdresser sets her own hours and lives a hell of a lot better than I do, her home is paid for, her truck is paid for, her boat is paid for.  She can afford to send her son to college.  She is her own boss.

    There are still trades and craft unions offering apprenticeship programs that will allow you to work and afford a lifestyle worth living.  Stronger unions make stronger wages for everyone.

    Young people are not limited to just college, they can think creatively about the end result of their time, efforts and money spent.

    Learn a second language while you're at it.  Nothing makes you more marketable than being able to speak a second language.  Spanish is a great choice as it is the root language to about half of the dialects on the planet.    You may not be fluent in Italian, but if you speak Spanish you will quickly pick it up if you have a chance to work in Italy.  You are over half way there.  

    "Ignorance can be fixed, stupid is forever." and "There are good decisions and bad decisions but you never know until you make them." and finally, "Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from making mistakes" My 8 year old daughter, 1985.

    by Veritas1 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 08:24:33 AM PDT

  •  Tuition in 1978 was 200/Semester State Univ (0+ / 0-)

    How it's abotu 1,800 per semester, INCR by 9 times. DEVASTATING

    80 % of success is showing up

    Corporate is not the solution to our problem

    Corporate is the problem

    by Churchill on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 08:49:09 AM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site