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My Daughter's Best Friend Was A Mormon

This is a very difficult piece to write, and as I do, I am unsure whether I should print it or not, so I will tell it just as it happened. It does relate to politics, in a manner of speaking. The names are changed to protect identities. My younger daughter, Ruby, was in high school, and through her part- time job met a beautiful, vivacious, funny and loving girl who became her best friend. Angela spent hours and days at a time in our home and I grew to love her dearly. She, my daughter, and I spent so much time talking. She was open and sincere, and she was Mormon.

I had never known a Mormon before (sounds crazy, I know, but true) and although I was aware of Mormon history, I was ignorant as to Mormon beliefs. I was curious and Angela was more than willing to share her religious beliefs. I let her know from the start that although I do not go to church anymore, my background was Catholic. She told me things like the coffee I drink turns your insides black (tea, also), and I would always tease her and ask her if she wanted a cup of coffee. She would laugh that infectious laugh she had and then we would eat cookies or some bread I had made, or better yet, she would share dinner with us.

One night as we sat around our dining room table, I said, "Angela, let's just compare the things we both believe and see how much our religions have in common." I expected there would be many beliefs we shared, but then I asked the question that I regret, because the answer has stuck with me all these years.

Everytime I hear Willard Mitt Romney speak, I cannot help but remember. Everytime I hear him say one thing on Monday and an entirely different thing on Tuesday, I think about the one question and the answer that left me cold.

Do Mormons Believe In Lying?

We had gotten past the things like the coffee, the tea, the caffeinated beverages, the fact that only certain areas of the Mormon temple were accessible to certain people and the underwear, but then the simplest of questions stopped me in my tracks.

"Mormons don't believe in lying, right?" Angela, without any hesitation in her voice or change in her expression said, "It's okay to lie, as long as it's not to another Mormon."

Does that explain Willard's etching and sketching, changing his talking points each time he opens his mouth? It's okay to lie? As long as it's not to another Mormon?

Best Friends 'Til Marriage

Ruby and Angela remained best friends for a long time. They did all the dumb things teenagers do, and they did them together. Angela met a young boy and he was not Mormon, and when he converted so that they could marry, it was not a surprise. We were all excited and happy! Even though Angela was still a teenager, she had explained that in the Mormon religion, if she got to be twenty and not married, she would be considered an old maid, and that would not be good.

What was a surprise, was that as the wedding came closer, my daughter was told that she and Angela were no longer going to be friends. What's more, my daughter would not be invited to the wedding. The time for childish friendships was done.

My daughter has not seen her or heard from her since.

Trust Lost

This has troubled me for a very long time and I don't intend to be offensive. I have never liked the idea of judging people by their religious beliefs. I try to take people for what they appear to be and how they treat me, mine, and the rest of the world. I have always thought that if you are kind and honest, treat others with respect and dignity, religion or lack of religion doesn't really matter.

But maybe it does...

What Joseph Smith's Run For The Presidency Means

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Comment Preferences

  •  Nobody is 'allowed to lie'! (8+ / 0-)

    Thall shalt not bear false witness to thy neighbor is just as important as Thall shalt not kill.

    There are no 'follow this commandment, but don't worry about that one.'

    Lying is my utmost number one more than just a pet peeve issue for today.  I just can't stand it.

    It's what i tell any voter.

    They lie.  You are not being told the truth.  You are being used and deceived to advance their agenda, which will not benefit you.

    It is not OK to lie.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:54:08 PM PDT

  •  All 'because i told you so' religions lie (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie, LuLu

    and like parents who command one thing of their children while doing another themselves, these religions implicitely permit lying

    it's okay if they do it, cause they are the authority figures

    as long as they never admit to it

    lying is bad... in theory (wink, wink)

    i think my cat is possessed by dick cheney

    by Anton Bursch on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:13:11 PM PDT

  •  That just goes to show the Bible's right... (4+ / 0-)
    Gold there is, and rubies in abundance,
    but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel.
                                           Proverbs 20:15
    And IOW, I don't know about Mormonism but Ruby's a dick and so is Mitt.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:20:25 PM PDT

  •  Angela doesn't sound typical of most Mormons I (9+ / 0-)

    know, and I have known plenty. (As I type I'm wearing my "Excommunicated Mormon Drinking Team" T-Shirt.)

    Everyone lies. Everyone. But Angela is the first Mormon I've ever heard claim that it's okay as long as it's not lying to another Mormon.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:21:55 PM PDT

    •  Agreed. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BoiseBlue, slksfca, Lujane

      I think I'd want more verification that the word of one teenager before trying to put this on Romney.  

      •  Under the Banner of Heaven - read it. (6+ / 0-)

        Then decide.

        Mormonism is a cult. The most successful cult (and still growing) since Christianity spread throughout the world.

        It's so whacky, it can't even be considered a Christian sect.

        People should be running from that "religion".

        Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

        by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:45:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is a difference between "mainstream" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hungrycoyote, slksfca, crystalboy

          Mormonism and the fundamentalist cults that adhere to the original religion. I'm sure if you did read that book you were able to understand the difference.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:53:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is Mitt, and how do you know? n/t (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pescadero Bill, hungrycoyote
          •  "Mainstream" ???? Are you serious. They only have (7+ / 0-)

            "mainstream" until they can get into the position they can revert back!  "Mainstream" is a political necessity.  The only reason Utah "outlawed" polygamy was to attain statehood.  All their protestations of evolution of their doctrine is precisely what this diary is all about.  It's evolved only on their "public" face.

            Look up the White Horse Prophecy and see how "mainstream" that is.

            ..most profound moments of my life...the last few -- And, for Global COOLING, if it's man-made and doesn't move, paint it WHITE!

            by tristan57 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:13:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The doctrines will revert in the afterlife. (0+ / 0-)

              The idea is that more women than men will achieve perfection. As an individual cannot enter the celestial kingdom without a mate, perfected men will have to marry these women.

              I like to believe in love as democracy - Salman Rushdie

              by crystalboy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 05:48:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I read the book, did you? (5+ / 0-)

            There was a reason the Mormon church felt the nead to issue a fucking rebuttle to everything he exposed in the book.

            In fact Jon Krakhauer, the author has added several addendum to each release responding to the responses from church leaders. He delves deeply into the founding of the "church" as well as its morphing throughout the decades. He stands behind everything he reports in the book and defends it as being to the best of his ability historical fact.

            And if the history of the Mormon church shows anything, it's a study in how to take advantage of vulnerable people and create a successful and powerful cult along the way.

            Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

            by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:14:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, I did (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              slksfca, Lujane, LuLu

              And I'm not defending the church. I am speaking from experience with the church and I know a great deal about it. You are free to ignore those who've done more than read a (very good) book about it. I grew up in the Mormon belt. I was baptized in the church. A not insignificant number of my family is still devout.

              So don't lecture me about Mormonism just because you've read a book. I know the history of it. I also know the ins and outs of every reason it should be criticized.

              But I also know truth from fiction. And a lot of fiction passes as fact on this site.

              P.S. I am not a crackpot.

              by BoiseBlue on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:22:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you're saying that within the tenets of Mormon (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BitterEnvy, Saint Jimmy

                teachings there's no lesser sin for lying to nonmembers then there is to lying to other Mormons? That there's no 'pass' for lying if it serves the mission of the church?

                Then I'd say many haven't gotten the message.

                From everything I've read, there's quite a difference between what's spoken during sermons and what goes on in the halls of power. And that's the problem with this wildly successful cult - there's a deeply rooted agenda and the only reason Mitt wants to be president is to promote his religion. It's worth millions of more souls to them.

                Absolutely fucking insane. Sounds like you still have too many ties to the "church".

                Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

                by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:49:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Unlike some commenters, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BoiseBlue, Lujane

                ...who nearly trip over themselves in their eagerness to believe untruths that confirm their pre-existing prejudices, your comments are both true and reasonable.

                There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified, and new prejudices to be opposed. ~Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                by slksfca on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 05:30:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am 5th generation Mormon. (4+ / 0-)

                  My great grandfather Hyrum Severson was a Bishop for 27 years until he was called to the Rigby Stake high council, under Stake President John W. Hart. He also served in the Idaho State Leg, for 10 years. I spent much of my childhood under the roof of my uncle who was a High Priest and considered to be an authority on Mormon doctrine.

                  I never heard that it was OK to lie to non-members from the pulpit. However, I heard repeatedly from members that it was OK to mislead or lie to "gentiles". In practice it may as well be doctrine. My uncle used to rail against this notion endlessly.

                  I parted ways with the Mormons over 30 years ago. I keep my former affiliation to the church secret as I do not wish to have a monthly visit from the brothers. I am acquainted with many Mormons but wouldn't call any of them friends as they tend to avoid that level of relationship with non-members. I've also learned the hard way to avoid business relationships that go beyond buy-sell and I never pay in advance.

                  I like to believe in love as democracy - Salman Rushdie

                  by crystalboy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 06:44:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Don't get me wrong, I don't like the church (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Porterhouse, slksfca, for 6 too

        But I don't like any church, really.

        But the misinformation that passes on this site gets under my skin. It's just silly. Wow. You formed your opinion about a topic based on what an idiotic teenager said.

        There are plenty of other ex-Mormoms on this site, as well as a few practicing ones, who try to educate people. But it doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe and look for any reason to believe it.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:57:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well I guess you get the final say. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Saint Jimmy

          As if having formed your opinion from what alleged ex-Mormons on this site have to teach us is somehow well founded and should go unchallenged.

          Are you an ex-Mormon? Do you have any idea about the history of the Mormon church actually gleaned from unbiased sources?

          Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

          by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:23:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you not understanding that I have NO LOVE (4+ / 0-)

            for the church? Problem is, I despise ignorance as much as I despise the church. And their is a lot of ignorance about this topic.

            I'm not defending the church. I am simply stating a fact- that Angela is far different from most Mormons I've known. And I've known a lot of Mormons.

            That you take that as an endorsement or defense of Mormonism is not my problem.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:29:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think the Mormon church teaches (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          crystalboy, Doughnutman, Lujane, Rogneid

          its members to lie.  Sometimes though, the line between what is a lie and what isn't gets fuzzy for the church.  Those who parody the Mormon church have termed it"Lying for the Lord".

          In a nutshell lying for the Lord consists of selectively giving unto the receiver the information that will help him view the Church, its history and its leaders in the most favourable light possible.  True disciples of Christ know that this is to be done line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; never revealing all at once.

          And as an example from that parody site:

          When Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland was interviewed for a show called "The Mormon Candidate" which was aired recently in the UK we see a slightly different approach to the principle of lying for the Lord.  I call it the ‘lie and cover’ procedure where we immediately deny or deny knowledge of an event followed by a reluctant admittance.  This takes the sting out of the accusation and is done in the hopes that the faithful will not falter in their sacred testimonies of the gospel.  To see this technique in action please click on the following link where Elder Holland was asked by the reporter “As a matter of historical fact, was Joseph Smith convicted of being a con man in 1826?”

          As an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and defender of the faith Elder Holland’s response was so simple but profound it actually brought tears to my eyes.  He simply replied “I have no idea”.

          When pressed Holland went on to basically admit that he did know about this when he said “this is an incidental matter to the character and integrity of the man”.

    •  I WANT one of those. :-) (0+ / 0-)

      The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

      by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:29:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Cult stuff (11+ / 0-)

    Chilling.  I'm sorry for the grief your daughter must have suffered.  Thanks for the story.

  •  Lie, cheat, steal, and for fundies, even kill. (7+ / 0-)

    For the sake of the betterment of the mormon church.

    "Under the Banner of Heaven"

    I can't think of a more important or relevant book.

    Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

    by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:34:07 PM PDT

  •  Never heard of Joseph Smith? (9+ / 0-)

    Well, he's the garbage-mouthed liar who founded the whole damn thing!
    Angels named '"Moroni", gold plates  with 'The Book of Mormon' engraved
    on them in "reformed Egyptian" never to be seen again, White Indians, Phew!
    Do Mormons believe in lying?  WHOA Nellie!
    Never heard of Joseph Smith?
    Never heard of willard Romney?

    ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

    by joe wobblie on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 01:40:07 PM PDT

  •  Mormons/Lying (5+ / 0-)

    If you live around them as I do, you will discover that lying is perfectly fine as long as it furthers a Mormon purpose. Agree about "Under the Banner of Heaven." One of the best books there is that exposes the true values of Mormons. We have relatives who are Mormon and they have lied to us many times. Don't trust them and don't tell me it is a religion - it is a cult and one of the wealthiest corporations in the world.

  •  Interestingly, this particular accusation is (9+ / 0-)

    one that is leveled against ... well, pretty much every self-identified tribal group, except perhaps the Amish.

    I've heard such claims made against Jews, Gypsies, Mennonites, Apostolic Christians, and various others.

    I suspect it has a significant proportion of truth in it -- but the problem lies not with Jews, Gypsies, Mennonites, Apostolic Christians, or Mormons; rather, it lies with tribalism.

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 02:30:33 PM PDT

  •  As an atheist I don't give a flying fuck (9+ / 0-)

    about someone else's religion.

    However what does bother me is having a President with an apocalyptic vision of the world. Like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann's beliefs.

    Mitt Romney isn't just a Mormon. He was in freaking leadership of the LDS church. Top dog in Massachusetts overseeing all the congregations there.

    Watching Mitt explode when being interviewed by a conservative talk show host when confronted about his Mormonism...  then go off into a rant about the last days and war in the Middle East makes me fear having this nut at the helm of our foreign policy.  

    Mitt Romney Lying & Imploding Over Mormonism... by samueltheutahnite

    Love will save you from the cold light of boring reality... But it won't save me -- SWANS

    by jethrock on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 03:03:39 PM PDT

    •  I couldn't agree more. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

      by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:34:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  For the Righteous, a different set of rules (4+ / 0-)

    If you are around evangelicals enough, there is an ethic that doesn't get a lot of public play.

    There is a recognition that they probably won't get too far if they are trying to get elected and are saying what they really think.  But for those who are truly Righteous, the ends justify the means and getting elected so as to advance the cause may require telling the public what they want to hear.  

    After all the public is under the spell of the siren song of Liberalism and Hollywood.  America is on the wrong track!

    If you paid attention to Bush and Rove, you heard a lot of very artful dodging and phrase parsing.  This was a born again mainstream right winger.  

    Romney is in a sect that some people think isn't Christian and some think is, but the same principle applies.

    My sense in listening to him is that, as a bishop in the Mormon church, he is regarded as Righteous.  Elect.  

    Watch out.  

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:05:00 PM PDT

  •  You kind of get used to the "friendship barrier" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    believe it or not. You are only allowed so far into a Mormon's life unless you convert. That's just the way it is. But given that restriction, I have found them to be generally friendly, respectful, and yes, honest in their dealings with non-member me over all the years I have lived in Mormon country (going on 40 years now). I was even part of a large Mormon family for about 3 years (that's how long a marriage lasted) and never felt badly treated by any of the family. And I was never pressured, or even requested, to convert either.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:10:23 PM PDT

  •  Lets straighten out the whole "noble lie" thing. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lujane, LuLu, semiot, Carol in San Antonio

    There is a concept called the noble lie. You will find it in Plato's Republic. The idea is that it is OK to lie to someone if you are lying for a higher purpose. From Plato it followed into early Christian theology and into early Islamic theology as well. Every religious group after Plato uses it in one form or another.

    It begins with Plato's distrust of democracy and his idea that the people should be ruled by wise, disinterested philosopher kings who would act in the interests of the people. But you can not depend on the people to know what is right for them so it is OK to lie if it is in their best interests. Like a parent telling a fib to a child. Or so goes the theory.

    St Augustine approved of this. So did Mohammad. And Joseph Smith. As well as L. Ron Hubbard. And the Jehovahs Witnesses. It is not unique to any single religious group.

  •  Ex-Mormon here (8+ / 0-)

    Well, not quite. I'm still practicing for social reasons and will continue to do so for a couple more months... anyway...

    The girl was definitely misguided. Mormons are taught that all forms of lying are sinful (including lies of omission) except (there's always an exception, lol) when the lie furthers the purpose of the church. This second part is never explicitly taught but is heavily implied with things like the "milk before meat" doctrine and the way that Mormon apologists often bend the facts to suit an agenda instead of looking at them objectively. It's also implied in testimony meetings where people are encouraged to stand up and tell the congregation that they "KNOW the church is true". The profession of knowledge is a subtle yet intrinsic lie to themselves. The burying of unsavory history also occurs throughout the church. This particular practice has been called "lying for the Lord".

    But in general, I would say that Mormons have no more propensity to honesty or dishonesty than any other human. At any rate, a certain amount of lying is essential for the proper function of our society.

    •  How very sad... lying for the church. God that's (0+ / 0-)

      just fucking PATHETIC!  Seriously, no mainstream (not the fundamentalist "late comers") would ever sanction lying for the church.  mormonism is so pathetic and stupid that I just don't know what to say any longer about the mental state of my fellow citizens.

      Good Lord, if I could leave this intellectual and moral waste land, I'd do it but You and I know I can't and we know why.  I served this place for 30 years and I'm not sure why.

      The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

      by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:55:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correction - I meant "mainstream denomination". (0+ / 0-)

        My typos increase with age.

        The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

        by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 04:57:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I do agree. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Saint Jimmy

        I'm so sorry that you can't get out. :( The social pressure is extremely intense. It really sucks to be a non-believing Mormon.

        •  It sucks to be a non believing anything. Although, (0+ / 0-)

          I'm a Deist.

          The real power in America is held by a fast-emerging new Oligarchy of pimps and preachers who see no need for Democracy or fairness or even trees, except maybe the ones in their own yards, and they don't mind admitting it. ~ Hunter S. Thompson

          by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 05:18:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I kind'a believe it (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Saint Jimmy, crystalboy, Lujane, LuLu
    my daughter would not be invited to the wedding.
    If the wedding was in the temple no outsiders are permitted.  Years ago my roommate was, lapsed Mormon (actually he got drunk and got laid every chance he got).  His sister married in the temple, he wasn't allowed to attend, and he knew that and understood.

    About it being OK to lie to non-Mormons...I know some well enough to be open to that.  A good friend is a strong Mormon who won't lie to me, I think, due to our friendship, but told me that he sees nothing wrong with any politician, including Romney, lying to get ahead.

  •  To understand Romney you must first... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crystalboy, Lujane, LuLu

    understand Mormonism and that requires a great deal of research and there are not a lot of people that would put in that effort.

    Plato's " The Cave" taught me to question reality.

    by CTDemoFarmer on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 05:20:29 PM PDT

  •  google "Lying For the Lord" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Yes, Mormons are allowed to lie, and they're even encouraged in certain ways.

    Consider how easily and quickly the lies came to Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, all the way down to the modern day prophet. Consider how the culture of lies and changing the truth to fit one's needs might just impact the worldview and attitude of one of the LDS Corps' most fortunate sons.

    "There's an iPad 3 and a Mitt Romney 4 now. They've worked the bugs out. He's not killing hobos at night anymore."

    by muzzleofbees on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 06:23:49 PM PDT

  •  I was raised in the LDS (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lujane, billmosby, LuLu, BoiseBlue

    (Mormon) church.  I don't know who taught this child such nonsense but that is not a a belief or tenant of the church.
    Lying is lying.

    Mormon's, being human just like the rest of us certainly lie just like the rest of us.  Lies are lies and I don't know anyone who doesn't lie in some form or other at sometimes in their lives.

    I don't know where people get these crazy ideas from but it is not from the church's teachings.

    I have not been a Mormon for 50 years now, but I think some of this foolish crap I hear is unfair and totally without merit.  Every religion has its problems, faults and mythology, but really I dislike very much when people misrepresent things in this way, whether it is Mormons, Catholics, Buddhist, Hindu or any other religious sect.

    No doubt the young woman thought she was telling it as she had "heard" or been "taught" by someone, but it is absolutely false.


    *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

    by Shirl In Idaho on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 09:29:40 PM PDT

  •  'Entitled' Better than..that's preached to kids (0+ / 0-)

    I also don't think the word 'respect' is in their religion dogma..

    Those 3 things I learned from my mormon son-in-law.

    "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones."

    "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

    by roseeriter on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 01:06:31 AM PDT

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