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Facts are stupid things. That seems to be the takeaway message of poll numbers suggesting birtherism is back:

YouGov internet poll: whether Americans believe 'Barack Obama was born in the United States'
These polls demonstrate that the public is back where it was before Obama released his long form birth certificate. In April 2011 55% of the public believed that Obama was born in the United States. Today 55% of the public believes that he was born in the United States.
YouGov is an internet poll, so the numbers should be taken with that grain of salt. Still, the trend seems to indicate that releasing actual factual information about something only changes public knowledge about that thing for a short period of time, then folks go back to believing whatever the hell they want to believe.

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Comment Preferences

  •  i saw a comment from someone today to the effect (20+ / 0-)

    of 'why should romney release his tax returns when obama still hasnt' released his birth certificate.'

    Whose interest does ignorance serve? - Carl Sagan

    by spgilbert on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:17:30 AM PDT

  •  The stupid, it burns (7+ / 0-)

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:18:23 AM PDT

  •  Ain't those wackos out there fun?? (10+ / 0-)

    This tells me there is still a lot of hate and racism in this country.

    Will Rogers said he never met a man he didn't like, I did, they're called conservatives.

    by CTmoderate on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:18:30 AM PDT

  •  Or whatever the hell they're told to believe. (5+ / 0-)
  •  In other words, there is too much to be (10+ / 0-)

    gained by lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying and lying for anyone to stop lying.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'y a aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il y a toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:20:55 AM PDT

  •  Proof positive that the more a lie is repeated, (5+ / 0-)

    the more it becomes truth, facts to the contrary be damned (or forgotten - or willfully ignored)!

  •  Internet Poll == Not representative. (5+ / 0-)

    It's going to overwhelmingly discriminate towards the sort of people who have an agenda to vote, that is to say, birthers.

  •  5% more are now sure that Obama was born (2+ / 0-)

    in Kenya, or Patagonia, or the planet Zorg, as compared to a year ago? How do the the teabaggers reproduce so fast?

    Ann Richards on how to be a good Republican: You have to be against all government programs, but expect Social Security checks on time.

    by shoeless on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:24:09 AM PDT

  •  I despair the species (4+ / 0-)

    This is elementary level stuff not quantum physics, but there is a significant portion of the population that doesn't understand the concept of primary source information.

    We are a strange dichotomy of a species. Stupid enough to believe just about anything, smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

    Fuck, these numbers are depressing.

    The only difference between (Mitt) Romney and George W. Bush is that Romney hasn't destroyed the American economy, yet - MoT

    by Herodotus Prime on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:24:44 AM PDT

    •  The Framers Stressed the Importance of a Journal- (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Herodotus Prime

      istic press for a reason. They didn't build their system for people who would be having perpetual information war waged against them by essentially the entire society.

      The birth certificate isn't an issue in a vacuum, it's part of the same general picture presented across major mainstream media, church, political leadership, peers and much of commercial culture.

      It's just too much to expect ordinary people to regard all that as their enemy, even when it is, if there aren't troops in the streets.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:55:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sheriff Arpaio and the clowns at WorldNetDaily (6+ / 0-)

    are holding their 2nd birther press conference next week. I have a diary ready to go.

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:25:28 AM PDT

  •  Even if they knew (6+ / 0-)

    that President Obama was born in the U.S., there are surely some people who will tell pollsters the opposite just for sh*ts and giggles to keep the conspiracy going.

  •  God I hope this becomes another topic closer (5+ / 0-)

    to election day.  By all means Birthers.. keep this one alive!!  Watching Mitt bumble his way through pandering to these folks the same way McCain struggled with the nut jobs in 2008 would bring great enjoyment.

  •  This diary is crying out for a poll (7+ / 0-)

    namely, which is more idiotic - belief in Birtherism or Creationism?

    And - to boot - what would a Venn Diagram of adherents of those two nutcase "theories" look like?

  •  We turnout OUR base (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, indie17

    We help our voting base overcome the hurdles of registration, ID requirements, list purges, etc. and we out work them on the ground.

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:30:38 AM PDT

  •  The mobs (0+ / 0-)

    are very fickle..

  •  Any poll that wants to go there (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indie17

    to ask the public's thoughts on President Obama's birth, should also start asking about the public's thoughts on Romney's Mormonism.

  •  People are dumb... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ConfusedSkyes

    I have personally met someone who believes ancient aliens posed at the Greek gods...yes, he's mistaken a Star Trek episode for scientific fact.  And he's smarter than the Teahadists.  Individually, you can talk people down from this nonsense, but in large groups...MIB has it right.

    Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

    by rbird on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:32:22 AM PDT

  •  The Same is True Everywhere (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Egalitare, rbird

    Even here.  In this echo chamber.  There is comfort in beliefs even of they are factually inaccurate.  It is unhelpful in general, though, except to stir the base.

    •  What is there on the left that approaches 1/1000th (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, indie17

      of the crazy quotient of birtherism, creationism, climate change denial, etc...?

      "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

      by polidiscoursor on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:43:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I happen to think... (0+ / 0-)

        ..the left is far less demonstrative about these beliefs but no less enamored of them. I mean, I really like the "Mitt took a $77,000 horse deduction" story but it turns out it isn't quite true and can't be proven true unless the rest of his tax returns are released.  So now, it's just a good sort of a story. But I have heard it a zillion times.

        •  If it can't be proved, how can it be 'not true'? (0+ / 0-)

          And also, even if true, how is any where near birtherism?

          I just wrote a diary last week about the dangers of closed debate and echo chambers, but this is a frankly ridiculous false equivalence.

          "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

          by polidiscoursor on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 01:50:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Schroedinger's Cat? (0+ / 0-)

            True and Not True at the same time, it seems.  It's all just gamesmanship of little substance.  Tonic for the troops - ignored by everyone else.

            •  You said this is left wing equvalent of birtherism (0+ / 0-)

              -- how are they remotely similar? Is this the most egregious example you can come up with to try to say 'both sides do it'?

              Not persuasive at all.

              "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

              by polidiscoursor on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 02:14:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)

                I didn't say it is left wing equivalent of birtherism, you said that I did. But they are the same in that both are false.  The GOP and their ilk have had about 5 years to really embellish their tall tales.  On this end, it's just been about a year.  We're fast followers though.

                •  You still seem to want to make a false (0+ / 0-)

                  equivalence. The two are not only quantitatively different, but qualitatively as well.

                  Also, what evidence is there that the $77K dressage write off story is not accurate?

                  "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

                  by polidiscoursor on Sat Jul 14, 2012 at 09:58:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The Horse Story (0+ / 0-)

                    He itemized the horse expense but since he had no offsetting profit he was not able  to use it as a deduction.  It does, however, carry over to later years, so lacking later year tax returns we have no evidence that he used it.

  •  that's still 80-20% for us. (0+ / 0-)

    one of these polls should FORCE people to pick a damn side.

    Anyway, after BHO has been prez for eight years, the entire thing will evaporate.  As it's meant mainly to delegitimize his presidency.  After he's gone, NOBODY will run a poll on this ever again.

    Just like we (rightly so) tried to delegitimize Bush in 2000.


    "A recent study reveals Americans' heads are larger than they were 150 years ago but sadly there is no indication that the extra room is used for anything." - entlord

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:33:11 AM PDT

  •  That's because the hard right NEEDS to "other" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Egalitare, polidiscoursor, indie17

    Obama. It's fundamental to their take on American politics and their definition of the American national community. They are dead-enders.

  •  we're all human. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ConfusedSkyes

    I doubt there's a person who has ever lived who hasn't believed SOMETHING that's false, just because they wanted to.

    That said, birthers are morons.


    "A recent study reveals Americans' heads are larger than they were 150 years ago but sadly there is no indication that the extra room is used for anything." - entlord

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:35:23 AM PDT

    •  Lots of people STILL believe (0+ / 0-)

      all that crap the government tells them about Marijuana and there's nothing to support that - but goll-eee they loves to buy into it.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:46:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Again, this is an impoverished notion of belief (0+ / 0-)

    There is no free-floating thing called birtherism based on differential interpretations of birth certificates and whatnot.  There is a spectrum of antipathy to the President and people who are towards one end are birthers as a contingent expression of their antipathy.  People who hate the President but aren't birthers are as statistically negligible as people who love the President but are birthers.

    Romney '12: Bully for America!

    by Rich in PA on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:36:27 AM PDT

    •  If you were a dedicated Bigfoot hunter (0+ / 0-)

      I'd call you a squatchy looney.

      It's not an official title, but it's descrip[tive.

      Assholes who profess this idea that Obama isn't a real American are called birthers because of it.

      So they do exist.

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:47:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  YouGov? Seriously? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ConfusedSkyes
    YouGov is an internet poll, so the numbers aren't worth jack shit.
    Fixed.
  •  At redstate Eric son of Eric did a post trying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indie17, rb608

    to refudiate the Bain horribleness by attempting to equate questions about Romney's record to birtherism. It didn't quite go the way he planned.

    The birthers, as usual there and at any other RW blog, came out of the woodwork decrying the dismissal of the 'legitimate questions.'

    And it's only going to get worse for them. Watch for teabaggers' heads to explode especially radiantly when anyone talks about Romney being unvetted and having secrets in his past.

    "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

    by polidiscoursor on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:38:33 AM PDT

    •  I saw that this morning (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rb608

      and laughed out loud.

      It was the first acknowledgement of the Bain issue over there. I've been keeping tabs the last couple of days 'cos I figured it would be good for a snicker or two when the topic finally surfaced.

      Little did I know. LOL.

      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy... the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

      by lcbo on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 12:11:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just went over and had a good laugh. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      polidiscoursor

      I even wrote a nice snarky concern comment.

      Look, this stuff is complicated, but the Obamnoids have the advantage of simplicity. Romney said one thing, but the SEC filings prove it isn’t true. What people don’t understand is that this venture capital, SEC stuff, offshore accounts thing just isn’t that simple. Just because Romney retired from Bain in 1999 doesn’t mean he magically and suddenly disappeared from the documents. Transitions in a venture of that size and complexity take a long time.

      Romney has here the opportunity to prove not only that he’s telling the truth, but also to show how the Obama camp doesn’t understand the complicated stuff. IMHO, he needs to get out there (or get his team out there) asap to explain to the people how just because he’s listed as the CEO, sole stockholder, etc. of the company doesn’t really mean he really works there. The Obama camp is playing paperwork games, and I think Romney ought to come out with the paperwork (including tax returns if necessary) to show how stupid the Obamanoids are being about this.

      I’m sure that his returns will show that his involvement with Bain stopped when he says it did, so he has a golden opportunity to demonstrate how his understanding of complex financial issues makes him much better to run this country than that failure in the WH.

      Can't wait to see if that flies.  I got banned a few years ago but have been reinstated, so I'm not going to show up as a newbie.

      You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

      by rb608 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 12:33:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I get YouGov poll requests and sometimes (0+ / 0-)

    complete them. Maybe I'l have to do them more often and help offset the stupidity bias.

    Just another faggity fag socialist fuckstick homosinner!

    by Ian S on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:41:36 AM PDT

  •  Birther = Stupid. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rb608

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:42:20 AM PDT

  •  Is asking the question perpetuating the myth? (0+ / 0-)

    It's a fact that he was born in the U.S.A. and gets as little respect as the guy in the Springstein song.

    I understand it's opinion polling, but it's an invalid opinion to hold.

    Please Vote for the Democratic nominee for President in 2012.

    by mungley on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:45:30 AM PDT

  •  Yeah, when Maude down at the Bizzy Bee Diner says (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rb608, exterris

    every day how Obama's a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and knows the secret handshake and everything, and all the other sages at the counter nod knowingly over their Maxwell House, facts really dont matter.

  •  The ignorant have you with you always. (0+ / 0-)

    At least that 20% is quite a bit lower than the usual 30% of Americans who believed some of the more outrageous lies about WMDs in Iraq. Of course, it helps that Condi Rice isn't on absolutely every news show promoting birtherism.

    "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

    by cadejo4 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:50:29 AM PDT

  •  Of course birthers are still... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rb608

    with us. The bisth ceritficate isn't the issue for these people, the President's race is.

    These people call him a Kenyan, Marxist, Socialist, etc., because the word they would like to use they won't. To use the word they would like to use will give them away, and the word they want to use isn't black.

    To the world you are one person. To one person, you are the world.

    by p a roberson on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:55:02 AM PDT

  •  They Don't "Go" Back They Get Led Back to What (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rb608

    they believed earlier.

    Give credit to the tsunami of spending on the right, who don't have a fraction of our faith in the stupidity of voters.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 11:58:46 AM PDT

  •  or, they really aren't paying it much (0+ / 0-)
    then folks go back to believing whatever the hell they want to believe.
    attention, and just throw an answer out there. frankly, i'm inclined to believe that it's only a teeny, tiny sliver of the public who actually cares enough to pay any attention at all to this non-issue. i doubt it's going to have any appreciable impact on the election. those who are going to vote for obama, will vote for him, regardless of this nonsense. those who aren't going to won't have their minds changed, regardless of what information is available. they are vested in him being a kenya born islamicsocialistfascist. were they to change their minds, their heads would explode.

    could be entertaining.

  •  I think... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rb608

    ...the uptick of birtherism is running parallel with the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare.

    While the country is beginning to favor Obamacare, on the other hand, the country finds it suspicious a "real American" could have ever made the ACA happen.

    The American citizenry is famous for that specialized brand of cognitive dissonance.

    Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate. ~ Proverbs 22:22

    by wyvern on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 12:04:09 PM PDT

  •  This fact resistance tells us (0+ / 0-)

    That making the public actually understand the facts about Romney's SEC filings and Bain record is going to very, very difficult.  When political charges devolve into actual factual data, nobody wants to hear it.  

    There could be a signed contract between Romney and the devil himself, authenticated by Jesus Christ, and folks would still vote for him because the truth doesn't get past their idealogical filters.  They believe what they want to believe, and the facts be damned.

    You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

    by rb608 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 12:05:02 PM PDT

  •  YouGov Polls (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polidiscoursor

    "YouGov is an internet poll, so the numbers should be taken with that grain of salt."

    You bet your life they should be!  I take those YouGov polls, and they are nothing but a farce.  I am NEVER asked any questions about politics or the current campaign.  All of the polls I am asked to take deal with businesses-- am I a satisfied customer, would I be ashamed to work for them, etc.  There are other questions that are asked month after month.  I do the polls purely as a diversion.

    So I would not put ANY stock in ANY YouGov poll.  Maybe if you believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, THEN maybe they're worth your time.

    •  Ya. I do them too, mainly to screw the marketing (0+ / 0-)

      research up; and I think they think I'm a 69 year old latina or some or some other inaccurate demo. I often consider it my duty to give the wrong demographic info for things like email and whatever else they ask you for online. Sure, they prolly figure it out quickly, but then it makes them question all their data at least a little.

      Anyway, once in a while I get political questions, but mostly it's as you describe.

      "I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was." M Romney May 17, 2012

      by polidiscoursor on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 01:38:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Along These Same Lines . . . . (0+ / 0-)

    . . . . Our good friend Orly Taitz has filed suit out here in Orange County Superior Court to invalidate the recent primary election, in which she finished fourth (with 152,000 some odd votes, which is scary in and of itself, but another story).  She claims massive voter fraud that prevented her from winning a spot on the November ballot and the usual stuff about Obama not being a legitimate Presidential candidate because he's clearly Martian or something.  

    The hits just keep on comin', folks . . . .

  •  Demand a "worth certificate" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polidiscoursor

    In response, demand a "worth certificate" from Serial Liar Mitt Romney.  

    Credit goes to John Fugelsang for this idea.  

  •  I have wondered (0+ / 0-)

    If some of the "no" or "not sure" crowd here are because people don't know if Hawaii is or was part of the US.  Not that that's good, but it's different than Obama lying about where he was born.

  •  Birtherism is now a non-issue, I think. Anybody (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exterris

    who is still supposedly worried over the President's birth certificate is hard-core Republican based and was not going to vote for him, no how, no way.  Of the 45% of this country who are going to vote Republican regardless, this is a group who will essentially believe anything bad that they hear about a Democrat, because he's a Democrat.  (There's a small group of people on this site, by the way, who will believe anything bad they hear about a Republican the same way -- Vitter diaper story, and the Palin/Bristol baby story, are only two of the more notable examples.)

    For the people who may play a role in swinging this election one way or the other -- moderates on each side, or independents - the birther issue is, I think, not even on the radar.  

  •  To a reactionary, Obama will never be legit (0+ / 0-)

    His life story is just too outside of their comfort zone. They don't really care if he was born here or not, they will never accept the son of an African, a Kenyan citizen, as their president. But, rather than admitting their blatant racism and xenophobia they created a ridiculously convoluted story of doubt. To them, he'll never American enough.

    Since the truth is known and the birth certificate has been seen and verified by any and all who need to see it, any pollsters who continue to fan the flames of this particular racist canard by continuing to run polls about this should be embarrassed.

    And, don't get me started on the MSM, shame on them for ever giving this utterly contrived story publicity in the first place and actually reporting on it as though it was news.

    who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?!?

    by redacted stew on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 12:54:56 PM PDT

  •  I was gonna say (0+ / 0-)

    "Ignorance is bliss," but these idiots can't possibly be blissful when they are this stupid?  What now?  Hawaii is not a state, but a foreign place?  PBO's mother jumped on an airplane while in labor so he could be born in Kenya?  The hospital in Hawaii lied just so they could say PBO was born there because he was destined to be President?  What, people?  Come on!

    "If you want to hear the Lord laugh, tell Him what you've got planned."

    by RO45 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 01:14:56 PM PDT

  •  Birtherism is racism. (0+ / 0-)

    It's not going away.

    GOP - The Party of Iago

    by psnyder on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 01:17:31 PM PDT

  •  Same % (0+ / 0-)

     Since 2008 when people went off the cliff, I have noticed that the "I don't care what you show me, what I read and tell me and what is true, I still say he's a commie'socialist/marxist/muslim/Kenyan/not a college graduate/didn't graduate from Harvard" % has remained pretty stable at 22-26%, regardless of the questions.  About the same who believe in ghosts, UFO's etc.

  •  You should have stopped at... (0+ / 0-)

    ...this is an Internet poll. The poll tells us nothing. The "trend" tells us nothing. Your post tells us nothing.

    E Pluribus Unum does NOT mean "every man for himself"

    by Daddy Love on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 01:50:42 PM PDT

  •  I have a good friend, an educated man, one (0+ / 0-)

    who's still calling for Obama's 'long form' birth certificate.  I simply don't understand such a request:  I'm still pissed at Obama for releasing a birth certificate in ANY form:  he's above playing teabaggers silly games.

  •  YouGov is a right wing push poll (0+ / 0-)

    I stopped responding to their polls years ago because the questions were always right wing oriented and skewed in order to get the response they are looking for. I no more believe in YouGov polling than I do in Scientology.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 02:23:44 PM PDT

  •  Internet Polls (0+ / 0-)

    Internet polls are not even worth mentioning.  They are the most vile, crooked, slanted and partisan of them all.

  •  "These polls demonstrate" nothing at all. (0+ / 0-)

    Not worth a moment's thought.

    "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

    by Bob Love on Sat Jul 14, 2012 at 01:03:02 AM PDT

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