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It is with great disappointment that I read that the whitehouse has swallowed the corporate lobby that there are not enough educated workers in the U.S.

The reason I know he has been misinformed is the genuine shock he showed when it was pointed out to him that highly trained U.S. engineers are having trouble finding work in their field.

Judging from the exchange above, it seems Obama has been told, and evidently still believes that the U.S. is not producing enough native talent.  If this misconception is the case, Obama probably believes there must be some flaw with any highly skilled U.S. engineer who has been unemployed for several years.  

   Surely Obama does not believe the unemployed engineer had not already sent his resume to the relevant corporations in the state of Texas during his three year job hunt.  It would be frightening to any U.S. engineering student that it is going to take the intervention of the POTUS to get their resume considered by corporations.

   Each year, the U.S. graduates more highly skilled talent than the job market can absorb.  Despite this, corporations lure visa workers from abroad with the carrot of a US green card some time in the future.  In the meanwhile, the worker is indentured to the job, as his or her legal status is beholden to the company sponsoring their visa.  

   Corporations prefer to have a docile and complacent worker.  One that never has to be offered a raise and will never request a promotion, or complain about working conditions, or unpaid long hours, and will accept a position well below their education level in order to get a chance at the prize of a U.S. green card after ten to fifteen years.  

   There are situations where foreign medical doctors will be willing to work as elementary school teachers just for a chance at a green card.

   How can a U.S. worker compete with a foreign worker for the attention of corporations and other hiring entities, such as school systems?

   Accepting lower and lower salaries has not worked.  Corporations know, unlike the imported visa worker,  a U.S. worker can still just quit immediately should a more favorable opportunity arise in the market.   However, a free market situation will always be avoided by corporate America, when an indentured(handcuffed) market is available.  

   A U.S. worker could offer to work for free as an intern, just to keep work status current and prove value to the company.  This won't work either, because U.S. labor laws prohibit slavery, even if both parties are willing, and there are legal limitations to internship positions.  

   Interns and volunteers cannot do jobs which would normally be paid.  Corporations know that they would have exposure to lawsuits for back pay and fines even after the citizen has left the job.

There are  1.8 Million Americans With Engineering degrees that don't have engineering jobs , and hundreds of thousands graduating with no job prospects in their field every year.  These highly educated U.S. citizens will then take jobs not requiring their degrees, in order to survive, such as as waiters, cashiers and tennis instructors.  

Labor Department statistics can then include these people as "employed" and corporations quote the misleading statistics of 4% unemployment for engineers in the U.S. in order to promote misguided policy.  

The saddest day of recent memory is when I read the white house press conference report that the president plans to send a bill to congress to ramp up the numbers of foreign
workers corporations can import to the U.S. because he has heard from corporations that they want this.  

Corporations, have told the president that the 1.8 million trained and capable U.S.
engineers, who are U.S. voters, can then be bypassed and remain unemployed.  Is it possible that Obama is OK with this?  I refuse to believe this.  My only hope is that the president will set aside the misinformation he is being fed, and instead look at the facts from the citizens.

These corporations Obama mentioned must have skillfully presented the data to convince Obama that these 1.8 million engineers must be losers or lazy.  They might have denigrated the experience by saying their skills might not "fresh" or they are incapable of learning on the job.  As a lawyer, would Obama accept someone telling him not to hire such and such a lawer because he has 10 years experience and therefore his lawyering skills are not "fresh", so they need to import a just graduated lawyer from abroad.

Lobbyists for these corporations probably tell Obama that these workers form companies and create jobs.  This is blatantly false.  By definition Visa workers are hired to do as they are told, not to innovate.  They are not hired to form companies.  Their visa does not allow them to do so.  Work visas are issued by the U.S. government and owned by the sponsoring company.  There is already an EXISTING job available for that visa worker.  This job does NOT have to be offered to a U.S. worker before seeking a foreign visa worker.  

   Most foreign visa workers are imported for entry level jobs and trained by experienced U.S. workers who are then replaced.   Obama does not know this.

   In the IT world, sometimes we talk of being on a DYOG project.  This means we are on a project where you are required to "Dig Your Own Grave", in that you must train your foreign visa worker to do your job as a reqirement to get a severance when you are laid off and replaced by this person you are training.

   I have been watching a devastating bill called HR3012 stealthly passed overwhelmingly through congress without any debate as to how it will affect the U.S. workforce.  This bill is cleverly named "Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011" to disguise how devastating it is. The foreign worker lobby cheered almost unanimous passage through the lower house.  The senate was expected to be smooth sailing also.  Afte all, who could be against a bill with the word "Fairness".

   I  breathed a sigh of  relief when Senator Grassley put a hold on the bill as it moved to the Senate.

   Grassley stated he wanted to add protections for U.S. workers seeking these jobs.

"I have concerns about the impact of this bill on future immigration flows, and am concerned that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment.”

Senator Grassley would like to add common sense protections such that before a job can be offered to an imported visa worker, the job be made available to equally qualified U.S. workers in the light of day, such as posted to a DOL website where applicant activity can be monitored.  Currently, there is no requirement to seek U.S. workers before offering jobs to visa workers.  I wish Obama would consider this. Who would object to a country looking out for it's own population?

The corporate lobby will not hear of any protections for U.S. workers and apparently has approached the White House to use the bully pulpit to railroad this bill through the Senate and prevent any U.S. workforce protections to be added to this bill in the Senate.

How anyone can claim that there is no relationship between importing more and more workers into a tight job market, and the unemployment rate of that market is baffling.

It is a sad time to be a U.S. highly skilled worker over 40.

**UPDATE ***
Grassley has caved to the lobbyists and has released his hold without adding any U.S. worker protections to this bill.  His amendment has added some "fraud protection" language to the bill instead, which is essentially useless since fraud is not the problem with the H-1B and L-1 visa program.  

U.S. companies are in FULL COMPLIANCE with the law as they displace and overlook the U.S. work force.  Corporations can legally instead choose to import a handcuffed work force allowed by current law.

Does any DKOS member know a single Democratic senator who will advocate for the U.S. workforce by adding U.S. workforce protection amendments to this Senate bill HR3012?  Something as basic as requiring all corporations to first seek equally qualified U.S. talent before recruiting abroad.  Most people already believe this is the law, so how could anyone argue that this requirement is bad.

Originally posted to IT Professional on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:43 AM PDT.

Also republished by In Support of Labor and Unions.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (143+ / 4-)
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    splashoil, Rich in PA, Chi, mudslide, concernedamerican, OnlyWords, DRo, lunachickie, Clues, Bluehawk, Cassandra Waites, eeff, blueoasis, cordgrass, musicsleuth, gooderservice, TracieLynn, dinazina, PrahaPartizan, billmosby, white blitz, NYC Sophia, run around, soaglow, raboof, cosmic debris, No one gets out alive, Gustogirl, coral, Yellow Canary, irate, eXtina, AlwaysDemocrat, RainyDay, Lahdee, congenitalefty, kyril, Mike RinRI, Naniboujou, LaEscapee, aznavy, IndieGuy, jimstaro, middleagedhousewife, Pescadero Bill, triv33, countwebb, cslewis, caul, statsone, BroadwayBaby1, ladypockt, seabos84, Quantumlogic, wonkydonkey, LillithMc, Wintermute, J M F, arlene, llbear, Azazello, m00finsan, cybersaur, ornerydad, breakingranks, Subterranean, eru, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, Shahryar, shenderson, JDWolverton, Mentatmark, quill, Jim P, bleeding blue, radical simplicity, yawnimawke, NBBooks, bnasley, mollyd, profundo, celdd, Mimikatz, BCO gal, Keone Michaels, JPax, Rizzo, Egalitare, howd, Crabby Abbey, poligirl, pgm 01, wblynch, psyched, SoCaliana, because, prettygirlxoxoxo, Knarfc, Gorette, bobswern, MikeBoyScout, Brooke In Seattle, mookins, NYCee, Mr Stagger Lee, BlueDragon, leonard145b, rantsposition, bibble, FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, brentbent, happymisanthropy, neaguy, Lily O Lady, mlharges, Alumbrados, Demeter Rising, itsbenj, kartski, Arrow, MarkInSanFran, Shockwave, profh, albrt, Janetrhodes, greengemini, zezefe, dRefractor, Kurt from CMH, psnyder, lcrp, freelunch, steep rain, beforedawn, ferment, George Hier, slowbutsure, cyncynical, rivercard, 207wickedgood, denise b, BlueMississippi, uscitizenvoter
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  •  The Democrats are bigger outsourcers (22+ / 0-)

    than Bain ever was.  They just do it with H1Bs.  Luckily for them the GOP will never call them on it.

    •  If foreign born are are just cheap replacement wor (9+ / 0-)

      If cheap work is the only thing that foreign born workers offer then  how come they appear to contribute disproportionately?

       "One in four engineering and technology companies founded between 1995 and 2005 had an immigrant founder. Foreign nationals residing in the United States were named as inventors or co-inventors in 26 percent of international patent applications filed in America last year. That compares with 8 percent in 1998."

      Would not incapable but cheap workers be at the bottom of the totem pole? Or is the patent office also biased towards cheaper thinkers?

      The problem is not the H1B. It needs to be fairly enforced to prevent wage competition, while encouraging scarce talent in.

      As foreign born Democrat & citizen myself, I find the imbalance in this blog xenophobic ... I thought this belonged better with the Pubby party line.

      •  "Immigrant founder" is not the same (11+ / 0-)

        as imported visa worker.  None of those companies were founded by imported workers.  NONE!

        Visa workers are hired to do as they are told.

        There is already an O-1 visa for exceptional individuals which any foreigner can self sponsor without being shackled to a corporation.  Why is this enough.

        •  How do you think ... (17+ / 0-)

          I was a foreign born founder of 2 startups ... Almost every foreign Born tech worker I know incl myself immigrated using H1B --> Green card --> Citizen.

          With all respect your contention is just not true.

          •  This does not change the fact that (13+ / 0-)

            firms should not be legally allowed to bypass the qualified U.S. workforce to fill positions.

            •  I agree (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kck, GAS, Fogiv, sethtriggs, askew

              And that would be a great blog entry where you call for the Obama administration to vigorously prosecute visa fraud & ask congress to tighten the rules.

              Not this one which conflates the small fraudulent fraction with the rest and plays to the nativist gallery.

              •  Specifically .... (9+ / 0-)

                An attitude that foreign workers are the problem does not belong in the Democratic party. Encouraging talent, The Dream Act and a way forward for illegal immigrants are all essential planks for the party, together with fair enforcement and protection for American workers' standards of work and pay.

                Specifically, the "abolish H1B" argument in the diary is based on lies

                fraud is not the problem with the H-1B and L-1 visa program.  

                U.S. companies are in FULL COMPLIANCE with the law as they displace and overlook the U.S. work force.  Corporations can legally instead choose to import a handcuffed work force allowed by current law.

                The law is intended to do the opposite.
                The INA sets forth certain prerequisites for employers wishing to employ H-1B, H-1B1, and E-3 nonimmigrant workers. To obtain H-1B or H-1B1 status approval, the employer must first file a Labor Condition Application (LCA), Form ETA 9035 or Form ETA 9035E, with the Department of Labor. The employer must state that it will:

                    Pay the nonimmigrant workers at least the local prevailing wage or the employer's actual wage, whichever is higher; pay for non-productive time in certain circumstances; and offer benefits on the same basis as for U.S. workers;
                    Provide working conditions for H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 workers that will not adversely affect the working conditions of workers similarly employed;
                    Not employ an H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 worker at a location where a strike or lockout in the occupational classification is occurring, and notify ETA of any future strike or lockout; and
                    On or within 30 days before the date the LCA is filed with ETA, provide notice of the employer's intent to hire H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 workers. The employer must provide this notice to the bargaining representative of workers in the occupation in which the H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 worker will be employed. If there is no bargaining representative, the employer must post such notices in conspicuous locations at the intended place(s) of employment, or provide them electronically.

                The law may not be implemented correctly or enforced strictly in some instances. But the Obama administration has been pretty vigorous in enforcement -- so the entire premise of this diary is questionable.
                •  Fraud is not the problem. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JesseCW, NYCee, greengemini

                  Corporations can discriminate against U.S. workers in full compliance with the law.

                  Bills proposed claiming to stamp  out fraud is a distraction from the real problem, in fact it causes the issue to be considered "settled".

                •  My Experience Has Been the Opposite (10+ / 0-)

                  I have been in IT for over 30 years, the last 15 as a consultant. My first 5 years consulting went fine as there were plenty of contracts/jobs to go around. After that most of the companies (life insurance) I have dealt with started using H1-B workers.  You can imagine what it feels like to walk into a company where there are a number of H1-B's - some of whom have been there several years- after you have been out of work for 8 months or so. Along with that the rates we get have been reduced anywhere from 30 to 50% - when you can find work that is.

                  The laws quoted above are easily avoided and are worthless.

                  If you are in your 20's or 30's you can probably shift to something else. For IT professionals it might be learning a different language or moving to a different industry that employs similar skills. Once you get into your 40's and 50's however, those options are greatly reduced or non existent as the time to acquire the necessary skills takes time and money.  And if you do find something, there is a good chance you will be working for significantly less income.

                •  I remember this diarist (7+ / 0-)

                  from hidden comments a while ago. Same anti-immigrant screed.

                  The link in the diary goes to NumbersUSA, part of an anti-immigration network created by man called John Tantos. Some of his organizations are identifed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups.


                  •  thanks - the skin crawled on the back of my neck (6+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    elmo, yella dawg, Bronxist, sethtriggs, askew, Fogiv

                    when i was reading this.  it just doesn't "smell" right... too much placing all the blame on dems and obama using the "I KNOW..." - i'll try to hold down breakfast and re-read this later - but it just doesn't ring "true" to me.

                    to much "agenda" for my liking...

                    •  Ironically enough (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      edrie, Bronxist

                      I wonder if the diarist is him/herself one of those immigrants he/she so rails against?

                      The foreign worker lobby cheered almost unanimous passage through the lower house
                      I can't think of the last time I've heard any American refer to the House of Representatives as the "lower house." Odd.
                      •  Sigh! The diarist is a minority immigrant. (0+ / 0-)

                        The diarist rails against an employment program that causes discrimination against immigrants and natives who are not handcuffed to a company.

                        •  okay - you responded. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          i'll go back and review your diary VERY carefully tonite when i'm back from the barn.

                          just so you know, your message is being lost in how you are presenting it.

                        •  So let me see here (0+ / 0-)

                          You are an immigrant who opposes letting others immigrate. Okaaay.

                          •  WRONG! I am pro immigration unless (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, uscitizenvoter

                            it negatively affects the workers already in the country.

                            There is an O-1 visa specifically for the exceptional peoples of the world.  There is a diversity visa to invite people from every country in the world.  There is family immigration.

                            I am against temporary work programs that flood the job market in a time of high unemployment.  

                            If you are working or looking for a job, or have family members or neighbors  who are looking for a job, you should also be against companies being allowed to bypass you, your friends and neighbors and instead choose indentured labor.  

                      •  great catch - perhaps a concern troll? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        and i don't make "troll" accusations lightly - but this one just screamed out "WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!!!"

                        bs detector going haywire here...

                        •  It is clear that you do make troll accusations (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          willy nilly.

                          You have not even addressed a single point made in this diary.

                          We have a high unemployment problem in the US among our highly trained population.

                          Democrats are the party of labor, and exploitative hiring destroys labor.
                          I am against flooding the market with labor from around the world, because it reduces the bargaining power of U.S. workers allowing them to organize if they become too easily replaceable due to sheer numbers of available workers.

                          Address why this premise is false.

                    •  I've got a couple of comments downstream, but I'm (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Bronxist, nchristine

                      wondering now if I was taken in by this diary.  I know the problems about the H1-B visas were certainly true during the Bush administration, and the "finagled" job specifications that I wrote about happened during the Bush administration, I think.  My husband is an IT professional that got training to update his skills after Obama became President, so some of the problems I talked about may already be being dealt with.

                      The woman in the video seemed genuine, though, but who knows?  Still, the point I made downstream about people needing to write the White House is still true, especially if you have a personal story to tell.  If we want the people in Washington to hear from other than the corporate honchos, it's up to us to make sure they hear.

                      So, is this just an "Obama sux, Democrats suk," diary?  I don't know.  What I do know is that the Rethugs have a problem with Obama's attack on outsourcing, and the way they're trying to deal with it is by trying to convince people there's no difference between the parties on the issue.  My sister got an email from a Republican friend, trying to convince her of that, although it wasn't the same specific thing as this diary.

                      Remember, whatever we see in the traditional media is just a small part of what the Rethugs are doing, so we do need to watch out for what they're doing under the radar and be ready to push back against it.

                      BTW, I didn't think Obama sounded "shocked," as the diarist claimed.  I thought he sounded responsive, and that's a very good thing.

            •  I can only speak to my case. (6+ / 0-)

              But my institution made the hire of an H-1B (me!) after a national competition in which they chose from American and foreign applicants alike. This is utterly typical in American academic institutions: you do the search, you make your selection, and if the worker happens to be a foreign national, you issue the H-1B as one of the few visas that allow a pathway to permanent residency.

              So, there may be plenty of unscrupulous uses of the H-1B visa in the corporate world. But please do not conflate all of us together. And please don't imagine that you're going to wind up with a stronger, more innovative work force if you shut down the borders and give exclusive priority to American workers.

              Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

              by Dale on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:03:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, they gave you the job not because there (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                IT Professional, Tonedevil

                was no qualified American applicant, but because the just wanted you.

                You do understand that that's an abuse of the H-1B system, right?

                It's hard to get a man to understand something when his livelyhood depends on not understanding it.

                Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

                by JesseCW on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:16:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I didn't get that from his comment at all, (8+ / 0-)

                  and your response seems jarringly contemptuous. It sounds to me like he was hired because he was, in the judgement of the search committee, the best qualified.

                  Of course the others who interviewed were qualified, otherwise they wouldn't have made it to the interview process. But when there's one position to fill and a plethora of qualified candidates, it becomes not a question of being basically qualified but of being the best qualified applicant, and what "best" ends up meaning in any particular case can be hard to nail down. It could be that the person selected best fills an expertise gap in a particular faculty or research group, that s/he is particularly complementary to the group in some other way, or that there is a better chemistry between one applicant over the others that bodes well for future working relationships within the group and beyond.

                  Academic search committees are usually pretty tough and contentious, and I don't think it's at all likely that they converged on Dale based on, "hey, let's hire the furriner!"

                  American Exceptionalism: 10 percent of the people have 74.5 percent of the wealth.

                  by psnyder on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:19:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Read his response. I was correct. (0+ / 0-)

                    H1-B visas are not supposed to be used to "recruit the best possible candidate".  That is not what they're for.

                    They're supposed to be used when no qualified American candidate is available.

                    His hiring was an abuse of that system, as HE clarifies.  That such abuse is widespread doesn't make it acceptable.

                    Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

                    by JesseCW on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 12:48:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  That is obnoxious and way off base. (6+ / 0-)

                  First of all, don't spout Al Gore spouting Sinclair Lewis back at me. I'm not suffering from false consciousness here.

                  The entire pool of applicants -- American, Canadian, British, Iranian, North Slabovian -- was evaluated at the same time. This means that if there was an American better suited for the job than myself -- hurrah! You got yourself a home-grown scholar for the position.

                  But because they're looking not just for the best American candidate, but the very best candidate from the range of scholars who applied for the position throughout the world, they hired an international scholar. As far as I know, this is how things are done at pretty much every American academic institution worthy of the name. And the H-1B visa program is used because it allows people on that visa to apply for permanent residency.

                  If you want to artificially constrain the nationality of scholars eligible to apply for a position such as this one, you could set up a two-tier system that gives priority to American scholars. But don't be surprised if your institutions wind up with a faculty as nativist and myopic as this thread is rapidly turning out to be.

                  Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

                  by Dale on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:30:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The reason you were selected is right here: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I din't know what college you were a post doctoral student at.  But looking at any university and the amount they pay it is obvious to see why.

                    At the University of California Davis, in 2011 sponsored 104 post doctoral scholars because they could not find PHds willing to work for$38,416 dollars.

                    Now tell me. What sensible U.S. legal worker would get a Phd if the pay is less than $40,000?

                    I assure you that if the university was denied the availability of 104 PhDs visa workers, the salary of this profession would be a lot higher, and the native geniuses would flock from high finance to research.  The Supply/Demand price point graph is in full force here.


                    2011     H1B    Postdoctoral Scholar     $38,416     104
                    2011     H1B    Assistant Project Scientist     $37,277     30
                    2011     H1B    Staff Research Associate     $44,353     11
                    2010     H1B    Postdoctoral Scholar     $39,637     79
                    2010     H1B    Postdoctoral Employee     $37,138     30
                    2010     H1B    Assistant Project Scientist     $41,255     23
                    2009     H1B    Postdoctoral Scholar     $36,256     71
                    2009     H1B    Postdoctoral Employee     $36,171     33
                    2009     H1B    Assistant Professor     $71,915     25

                    •  With respect, IT, (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm not sure what you're on about. I'm not sure what this chart is, but I'm not a postdoc at UC Davis, and I'm not on some kind of batch hire of a fixed number of H-1Bs, at some kind of predetermined sweatshop wage.

                      My college, a private institution, made the hire without asking about my citizenship. Citizenship does not figure in to the search deliberations. How do I know this? Because I've served on several search committees with international candidates in the pool. The search committee makes its selection, based upon the merits of the CV and of the on-campus visit, and the administration rubber-stamps it. After that, if there's a need to set up a visa, the college will look into it. At no stage in my or any other search that I've served on has a candidate's citizenship been a factor of any kind in the decision to hire.

                      Once the hire was made, and it was determined that they needed to hire a foreign national, I hired an immigration lawyer. We weighed several options, and the H-1B was the best solution -- because it is one of the few visas that provides a path to permanent residency. You can be on that visa for up to six years while applying for the PERM labor certification and all the rest of it. This is utterly standard in academic hiring for junior faculty.

                      There is a path to the green card for what are called "outstanding" scholars, but that's not an option for many of us, so we go through the long, tedious procedure of applying for a green card while we're on an H-1B.

                      Is that all right with you? Or should we all have to be Cornel fucking West before we can be issued a visa to work in American universities?

                      I make exactly the same prevailing salary as my US citizen colleagues. I know this because I have eyes, and can compare the contracts that we get in the mail each spring.

                      In other words, I am not getting any kind of better deal than my US citizen colleagues. Does that spell things out clearly enough for you?

                      It's kind of galling that I have to spell out my own personal shit in this thread, just to dispense with these insinuations. But if people are going to try to tell me that they know what happened in my personal situation better than I do, I'm afraid I have to weigh in.

                      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

                      by Dale on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 07:51:25 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You're merely arguing that our highest priority (0+ / 0-)

                        should be YOUR personal financial our own expense.

                        At no stage in my or any other search that I've served on has a candidate's citizenship been a factor of any kind in the decision to hire

                        What you keep saying, over and over, is "I abused this system because I like money".

                        We got it.  A program that hurts our country was something you were able  to use to your personal advantage.

                        It's just that we don't think that "What's good for Dale?" should be the first question asked when determining our national policies.

                        If it turns out that you spend a great deal of your time and money fighting for a world without borders, it's possible that you're motivated by principle and not merely venal self-interest.

                        But I doubt that's the case.  It's sounds a lot more like you just think you're extremely important, and the ordinary rules really shouldn't apply to you.

                        Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

                        by JesseCW on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 12:57:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I just don't even know what to say. (0+ / 0-)

                          We're a long fucking way from huddled masses on Ellis island, that's all I can say.

                          I'm glad your motives are so utterly beyond reproach. But I've done nothing to be ashamed of. I really don't know how you would go about building a diverse, international community of scholars. Maybe that isn't a value of yours, I don't know.

                          But if it is, then you need to give those scholars some kind of visa so that they can teach while applying for a green card. And if you're allowing an open competition for all those who are eligible for the post, and then paying those workers not a dime less if they're from Iran than if they're from Iowa, then I don't really see what's so grotesquely unfair about the system.

                          And incidentally, this is the system. You complain about me violating the ordinary rules? These are the ordinary rules. International scholars applying to UC Davis, Columbia, Williams College, or wherever use the H-1B as a way to be here while the green card process is unfolding, because it's one of the only visas that allows us to do so.

                          So if you've got a better idea -- other than just shipping us all back to where we came from -- I'm all ears.

                          Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

                          by Dale on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 02:24:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  "Better suited". That's NOT what H1B is supposed (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    to be about.

                    It's supposed to be about hiring someone else when there are no qualified applicants in that US.

                    You just argued in favor of abusing it.

                    Yes, I want a two tier system that gives priority to American workers.  

                    You do completely understand me.  Until we drop borders,  I do not want the Freidmanite Nightmare of a "flat Earth" you advocate.

                    Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

                    by JesseCW on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 12:46:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then your universities and research centers (0+ / 0-)

                      will begin to reflect the myopic and ingrown qualities of an immigration system based upon nativist values.

                      You talk about where my energy should be directed, but your own energy could be better directed at achieving international parity on wages, rather than simply closing the borders and penalizing many of the migrant workers most directly affected by the global "race to the bottom" of wage differentials.

                      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

                      by Dale on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 02:35:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  If you benefited, then it must be a great (6+ / 0-)


            That's the modern Democratic Party.  Never for a fucking moment consider the person who had to pay the price for you to reap a benefit.

            Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

            by JesseCW on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:14:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And they are often hired through (9+ / 0-)

          contract houses that make them sign contracts saying that if they get hired as a real employee by one of the companies to which they're contract before they've worked for the contract house long enough to pay back the contract house, then they owe the contract house some massive amount of money (a decade ago it averaged $10k).

          In addition, since the contract houses usually sponsor the person for a green card, the person has to assume the the cost of the process. If the person later gets laid off by the hiring employer before they finish getting their green card, they will be deported (this happened to a person I used to work with - it was devastating - he even lost his fiance over it).

          The current H1-B Process is, very literally, the modern means of indentured servitude.

          •  You're right ... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kck, Fogiv, IT Professional

            There are good contract houses, and there are terrible ones. You're right that the abuse of the workers needs to stop, especially where foreign workers are hired primarily to lower American wages rather than provide scarce but needed skills.

            However, you err in thinking that some of these "entry workers" don't go on to get advanced degrees or found companies or issue patents even today. Many of them are among the bright people in their countries and it is to our advantage to provide them an opportunity.

            •  Why is it to our advantage to teach our own (4+ / 0-)

              kids that if they want a living wage for skilled work, they're shit out of luck?

              Why should we teach our kids that unless they can get by on a bus drivers salary, while paying off massive student loans, they shouldn't even consider a career in engineering?

              This isn't about level playing fields - it's about people who had to pay US tuition prices who are trying to build a life here, as opposed to people who mostly intend to get 3-5 years experience at an American firm so they can go home and command a much higher market price.

              If you're trying to complete the later objective, 80 hour weeks for 30k  isn't so bad - it's a temporary situation to be endured for later opportunity.

              But people who want to live here, build lives here, raise families here cannot compete with that.  No matter where they were born - you cannot pay off an MIT education on those kind of wages.

              Thinking the "food stamp challenge" teaches you about being poor is like thinking a camping trip will give you insight into being homeless.

              by JesseCW on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:19:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  It's the same reason the chamber of commerce... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, radical simplicity

          and bipartisan establishment/pols like us awash in undocumented workers. They are docile/afraid, work for low wages, dont demand or complain, dont join unions, etc...

          This is why the Obama admin is setting about to kill the strongest public sector unions, those of the teachers, with his privatizing reforms. Bipartisan embraced, very GOP informed, actually.

          About those foreign medical doctors willing to work as elementary school teachers that you reference... it fits the mold well. Our leaders, like Obama,  are hard at work on "reforming" our system of public education, one that, thanks to their efforts, is more rapidly becoming privatized and is spiraling the teaching profession down to the bottom rungs (filling up with the majority low paid) with a much harder road to getting to the top, and less and less being there for them at the middle and end of the road, seniority/tenure/experience be damned.

          Reforms get rid of protections, not to get rid of bad teachers (tenure is due process, not a job guarantee) but to fire experienced (higher paid) teachers. Have them assigned to a low performing class; when test scores dont show enough "gain"... voila, they get fired! The 'reforms' make the job so godawful with all the consultant/billionaire/Wall St driven nonsense driving bad teaching policies/conditions, etc, that teachers are leaving, and early on (they are doing that now... teacher job dissatisfaction is at all time low, since 2009). So there you go, we increase that pool down at the bottom. And then it is lather, rinse, repeat...

          It is all of a piece re the neoliberal trajectory. Obama is part of it. So are the Dems. Education reform, trade "reform" (ie, free and outsourced). Our policy shapers/leaders can no longer continue down this path (they are determined to continue down) AND hold onto a healthy middle class. Therefore, it is necessary to carve out more and more space at the bottom, a place they are sending all of us down to at breakneck speed. Oh, except for those who make it to that rarified air where the 1% dwell.

          Professor (LINK) Lois Weiner spells out her take on the neoliberaiized landscaping we are undergoing. The quote pertains to ed and teachers unions, ends up with the bigger picture that is touching you too, in your realm.

          In the past five years, we have witnessed a demonization of teachers unions that is close to achieving its goal: destruction of the most stable and potentially powerful defender of mass public education. Teacher unionism’s continued existence is imperiled — if what we define as "existence" is organizations having the legal capacity to bargain over any meaningful economic benefits and defend teachers’ rights to exercise professional judgment about what to teach and how to do it.

                As I explain elsewhere,[1] financial and political elites began this project forty years ago when they imposed school reform on Latin America, Africa, and Asia as a quid pro quo for economic aid. Though specifics of this global social engineering differ from one country to another, reforms have the same footprint: School funding is cut and school systems are broken up to promote privatization under the banner of "choice"; teachers and curriculum are controlled by tying pay to standardized test scores and eliminating tenure; standardized testing measures what is taught to most students, reducing content to basic math, reading, and writing. Teachers unions have been singled out for attack because throughout the world they are the most significant barriers to this project’s implementation.

                Rhetoric about equalizing school outcomes for groups long denied access to adequate, let alone quality education, masks the real aim of the last twenty years of reform, creating a docile workforce that receives no more than the 8th grade education needed to compete with workers elsewhere for jobs that can be moved easily from one city, state, or country.

          Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a lame party, or should it drive a lame party to break out? If it cant, should it break out?

          by NYCee on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:00:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Recent immigrants are given preference (10+ / 0-)

        over native born minorities, including women.  The decisive criterion is obedience.  Autonomous, self-directed individuals are not corporate material.  The culture of obedience prizes compliance more than anything else.
        Most recent immigrants arrive from cultures where obedience is the norm.  They experience personal freedom in their personal lives as liberal by comparison. This is true as regards recent immigrants from all continents.

        In 1974, when my spouse had been unemployed as university professor by his own choice, he was offered a visiting professorship by San Diego State. We rented a furnished house and packed our three children and the clothes they'd need for nine months in the car and took off.  Near the end of the academic year, his superiors in the department expressed surprise that we were planning to depart.  They thought it was understood that the "visiting" appointment had been a ruse to circumvent normal posting and review procedures to comply with affirmative action requirement. Once it was explained, we had even more reason to depart and return to a state of unemployment for another year or two.
        What was different in the 1970s was that salaries were enough to purchase old houses and rebuild them for sale at a profit. That's not possible when people have to drive 90 minutes to get to a job.
        What Americans have lost in the last four decades isn't just income, but time.  Nobody's got time to do their own thing on the side anymore.

        Time is not money.  Time is more valuable and definitely limited whereas the supply of money is virtually infinite.

        Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage"

        by hannah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:27:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Part of this is probably because of... (6+ / 0-) countries train people. When I was studying Aeronautical Engineering in the eighties, the majority of people in the graduate programs at my major engineering school were Chinese.  Around 50% IIRC. This was partly due to the fact that their country paid for their education. This gives them a huge leg up on the rest of us. Not all people from overseas go home after their education, for obvious reasons. This doesn't have anything to do with Xenophobia and everything to do with socio-economics. You make far too many assumptions in your post.

        Regulated capital serves the people, unregulated capital serves itself.

        by Alumbrados on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:59:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Tell me about outsourcing..and in(out)sourcing (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It's done all the time. It's all about money.

      Fresh? Gimme a break. Not as willing to work long hours for low pay..probably.

      My job in the Electronics Industry was off shored to Malaysia.

      I designed IC packaging, No-one builds that here except military under the requirements of a US source for national security reasons and even that rule is bent if it 'could' be made here easily.

      Look a Jabil for example..sure there are plants here..Boeing and Rockwell and others need allot of smart bombs.drones and communications gear. But that's not what they are about...they 'have' to keep plants here by law or they wouldn't.

      Us patents in ic packaging? check!
      Voting representative to JEDEC standards committees? check!
      A job in Electronics? talk to our office in Singapore...


      If Mitt Romney stands behind his statements even if he doesn't remember...does he stand behind his actions even if they are a hate crime?

      by Arrow on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:56:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  H1B is rather different -- the worker is here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Argyrios, Bronxist

      I'm not arguing that they are good things but consider my company (as in "worked for" not "owned".)   They got a lot of flack for hiring foreign workers, especially from India.

      Then they moved a lot of development TO India.   After all, there is no particular reason that what we made couldn't have been made by a company in India, they are good programmers too.

      From an economic point of view, it is better to have foreign workers living in town, eating in town (lots of new Indian-related businesses in town now) and buying houses in town than simply having stuff built overseas and shipped over via phone lines.   (It works a lot better too, let me tell you -- trying to deal with timezones plus foreign accents and less than excellent phone lines is a real time waster.)

      Also, there is a difference between an engineer with six years of experience and an H1 visa than a new graduate.   Graduating with a B.S. in computer science is one thing, experience working with the systems that a company needs is another.    Companies (in my experience in my field) do not tend to hire entry level foriegners straight out of Mumbi University -- those hires are (were?) native.   It is the people with experience who are in short supply.

    •  Here is the GOP for you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IT Professional

      H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act was introduced in September 22, 2011 by Rep. Chaffetz (R-UT) and its goal is to eliminate the employment-based per-country cap entirely by fiscal year 2015 and to raise the family-sponsored per-country cap from 7% to 15%

  •  Great diary. It is outrageous and unbelievable (55+ / 0-)

    that this bill is sailing through including with the President's support.  But there must be a whole lot of super-high-level, globalized backroom dealing behind this bill's being so uncontested.  

    What's so perverse is that it's like flipping offshoring on its head, in other words, the jobs are still being sent "overseas", but the overseas employees are being brought here to American soil to work.  I guess that this is the kind of "job creation" that businesses think Americans won't question them about.  They get to say that they're creating jobs here in America----- but they will never tell you that they create those jobs for foreigners, and give those jobs preferentially to foreigners, because they refuse to hire well-trained Americans.  

    That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

    by concernedamerican on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:04:46 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for bringing that bill to our attention (25+ / 0-)

    It is shameful how poorly workers are treated in this country. And they also want to erode the safety net. The rich / "elite" are not smart, just relentlessly greedy. They are trashing this country and planet in so many ways.

    ♥ Medicare For All. ♥
    "Our health care system is like a casino. The insurance industry is the House... The House always wins." -- UnaSpenser

    by Chi on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:06:04 AM PDT

    •  Before you thank the diarist: (13+ / 0-)

      This diary is a repost from February, and diarist also has one called "Dream Act vs. Economic Recovery: Choose Wisely"  WTF? And endorsing a Republican Congressperson? And showing a video of a likely-racist woman who is sore because "gosh aren't all engineers the same and can do the jobs of any other engineering positions???"  FAIL and HR'D

    •  Elites not smart? (10+ / 0-)

      Well, at the very least, they're very cunning. Look at what they've gotten away with so far!

      A lot of people here don't want to admit it, or simply can't face the reality: the fact is, President Obama is a complete dolt on economics issues. This is largely, I believe, a result of his being miseducated on economics. But if we really want to get to the root of the problem, we have to be quite precise. Obama was taught, and has accepted, economic theories that have seriously bad effects on working people and the real economy, while at the same time providing the ideological justification for financializing the economy, and allowing increasing concentrations of wealth. These are basically "Reaganomics" economic theories, but professional economists call them "neo-liberalism."

      The assumption behind economic neo-liberalism is that private investors are much better at deciding where to invest society's credit and monetary capital, than a centralized government bureaucracy. This presumed "better" private allocation of money credit and monetary capita results in faster growth of economic activity, and economic wealth. This has been the underlying premises of the past four decades' experiment with neo-liberalism.

      A similar experiment was conducted in the 1920s under Harding and Coolidge. That experiment also ended in a financial crash and an economic depression. The economic depression this time is not as severe, because there were still government stabilization programs in place (which, be it noted, were created in response to the First Great Depression), such as unemployment insurance, food assistance, and Social Security. The 2009 stimulus also helped mitigate the downturn, but it was not enough to initiate recovery.

      If economic neo-liberalism is such a disaster, why does it appear the country prospered in the 1990s and up until the 2008 crash? First, not all the country prospered. The working class was really destroyed during this time, and has never recovered. The middle class did OK, but it basically treaded water. Most of the economic "gains" went to top-most income levels.

      Second, most of the gains came from cannibalizing the physical base of the country. Necessary maintenance on infrastructure such as roads, bridges, water systems, sewage systems, and electricity transmission, was simply not done, to the tune of over $2 trillion. The industrial based was looted and huge chunks of it destroyed. Entire industries, such as textiles, consumer electronics, footwear, clothing, and printing equipment have been almost entirely eliminated.

      In fact, if you look at the hard numbers, the United States has been de-capitalized. I wrote on this a few weeks ago: Neo-liberalism, De-capitalization/De-industrialization, and the Res Publica.

      So, if you're a ruling elite, you did quite well. The economic policies of the past four decades, which our President learned, worked quite well. Why would the elites want to change anything? They’re not hurting. In fact, they’re doing better than ever. That’s how we have the apparent anomaly of record corporate profits and cash reserves, while at the same time lack of hiring and business expansion.

      What the elites, including Obama, don’t understand is that for the nation to prosper, everyone has to be given part of the growing wealth. Working stiffs included. But that’s not what neo-liberalism teaches. And it takes a very long time for ideas to be discarded, even after they have been totally discredited, the way neo-liberalism has been discredited by the crash of 2008 and consequent Second Great Depression. As the physicist Max Planck once observed, science advances one funeral at a time. Economic thinking is progressing even slower.

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:22:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think your excellent point is well understood (0+ / 0-)

        Please excuse my addition...

        What the elites, including Obama, don’t understand is that for the nation to prosper [in this global economy with cheap labor, high productivity, and ubiquitous technology] everyone has to be given part of the growing wealth. Working stiffs included.
        But the political, cultural and religious tenets apply pressure against innovative ways to accomplish this.

        There will not be a socialism answer. Not in our lifetimes. As for bonds at birth - a cut of the nation's wealth - IMHO this seems to be a very fruitful option, yet out culture preclude this kind of thinking.  

        The fundamentalism of the (Protestant) Work Ethic in Christians, Jews and Muslims, even agnostics and atheists have a form, is very strong.
        Work brings sufficiency.
        God's happy with those who are sufficient, those who work.
        Those who work make God happy.
        Not working is sinful.
        Helping people to not make God happy is sinful.
        Giving hand-outs is sinful.

        None of this has to matter in evolving how we deal with the country's change from a labor-based economy to a wealth-based one. But it's an intrinsic and significant barrier that enables corrupt government to be corrupt.

        Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

        by kck on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:56:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  discredited ideas and missed opportunities (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chi, IT Professional

        There was a window time back in the mid-nineties when I made the career shift into tech that this country could have made a serious effort at developing the engineering workforce it would need for the next century -- particularly in our inner cities that could have benefited most from such an investment.

        We failed to do it because of the totally irrational  belief (shared by a U.S. administration who promised a new age of prosperity based on "high tech jobs") that:

        "...private investors are much better at deciding where to invest society's credit and monetary capital, than a centralized government bureaucracy."

        My own re-education into engineering was entirely self funded. I could afford it, but just barely. There were millions of others who couldn't, and thus missed that chance for themselves, their families and their communities.

        Instead what we got has been an entire generation (or two) left behind, and the modern form of indentured servitude for those decent, hard-working, folks imported to make up the shortfall.

        But that's all water under the bridge. It's too late to right it now. The country has moved on, I think backwards, into the depths of an "I've got mine" narcissism that will prevent any meaningful investment in our collective future. Unfortunately in America today, "selfishness sells". It's that kind of thinking that is the real challenge facing us, and there doesn't appear to be anyone on the horizon with an answer to it.

      •  Yeah, I would like (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chi, BlueDragon

        to know a lot more about Obama's time at the University of Chicago, home to the most right wing, sociopathic economics school in the world.

        Regardless, it is abundantly clear now that he's a full fledged subscriber to the free market fundamentalism of Friedman, Hayek and Rand. He's just that New Democrat version, like Bob Ruben and the DLC crowd, that couples radical right wing, free market economic orthodoxy with traditional liberal rhetoric about "strengthening the middle class" and "opportunity for those who work hard and play by the rules" while systematically destroying FDR's New Deal and the Democratic party as we knew it from the inside.

        Getting Obama into the White House was the Wall Street cartel's cleverest play yet.

        •  Yet I will vote for him (3+ / 0-)

          because the Republicans are worse.  Their standard bearer is likely a felon.

          And also recommend diaries like this, in order to shed light on the problems that we must take it upon ourselves to devise solutions to, locally, nationally, and globally, and solve.

          ♥ Medicare For All. ♥
          "Our health care system is like a casino. The insurance industry is the House... The House always wins." -- UnaSpenser

          by Chi on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:33:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I guess you missed the furor (0+ / 0-)

          over Obama's "you didn't build that" remark.

          Even in its original form, his meaning is anathema to the Friedman, Hayek, and Rand crowd. They would have the government get out of the businesses of education, infrastructure, and so forth.

          He's economically a centrist; he's not a right-winger. There is a difference.

          Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

          by Nowhere Man on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:05:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't miss it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            And its "original" form is the only form. He was clearly saying that businesses are dependent on public roads etc.

            But I've heard Obama say nice things on the campaign trail before. I no longer find them remotely credible. On policy, the only metric that matters, he has clearly and repeatedly demonstrated his proclivity to market based "solutions." This is evident in his approach to health care, which was plucked from the Heritage Foundation, and his approach to the financial crisis, which was not to reform the market, but to prop it up with secret, and possibly illegal injections of the public's money.

            From education, to trade, to monetary policy, Obama's policies are very much in line with the Chicago School.

            As for the term "centrist" I find it utterly meaningless in the context of the modern American realpolitik.

      •  I get the point but they are not "smart" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlueDragon, nchristine

        as they are trashing the world in their misguided greed.

        Stealing all the food from the galley of a sinking ship is stupidity.  That is what is happening in this world today.  I know it is a bit off topic form the subject of the diary but the larger point is that greed is killing nations and the planet as a whole.  

        ♥ Medicare For All. ♥
        "Our health care system is like a casino. The insurance industry is the House... The House always wins." -- UnaSpenser

        by Chi on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:27:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bit OT-fascinating observations about unemployment (54+ / 0-)

    In a way, both could be right -- that there is unmet demand for engineers while many engineers and other highly educated professionals remain unemployed.

    I heard this on a local NPR news talk show about a month ago.

    There are severe barriers between skilled workers and employers looking to hire.

    The biggest barrier is worthless, useless HR departments and the online tools they have delegated hiring to.

    For people looking for work, it is now unavoidable that one has to go through an online application process.  This expert said that a company desperate to hire computer engineers advertised and received 250,000 applications.  The online screening process determined that all of them were unqualified.

    An HR professional disgusted by the way the online application process was creating a barrier between him and potential employees tried an experiment -- he advertised for his own job online and applied.  The computer program rated him unqualified and screened him out from an interview.

    Another problem is what the expert called the "Goldilocks" problem.  Because every job receives ten, twenty, a hundreds times as many applicants as there are positions, HR professionals think that they can find the exact perfect person.  The illusion of an endless supply of applicants causes them to refuse to hire perfectly qualified people.  This expert said that many HR departments desperate to fill a job, go through the online process, then interview, then decline to hire anyone because they think there's someone out there "perfect" rather than qualified.  

    This is stunting the economy and employment figures.  So for computer engineer jobs, it's better to hire a "disposable" foreign engineer than commit to a seasoned and experienced US professional who can't get through the idiotic online applications screening process or can't get through the idiots in HR.

  •  There are Few Jobs in Science and Math (21+ / 0-)

    Out there:

    The U.S. just doesn't need any more people with these type of skills.

    Or any type of skills, really.

    Our children should find their fortunes elsewhere.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:30:01 AM PDT

  •  That video is a couple years old (14+ / 0-)

    And, IIRC, she asked POTUS to do a dance or something. I.e. she is a troll.
    And go vote for Grassley if you like him so much. Blech

    I ♥ President Barack Obama.

    by ericlewis0 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:31:52 AM PDT

  •  Not a Democratic Senator (6+ / 0-)

    but we should be able to count on Bernie Sanders to stand against this kind of legislation.

  •  docility (15+ / 0-)

    "Corporations prefer to have a docile and complacent worker."

    This was exemplified pretty well by one reason given for why the iPhone isn't being produced in the U.S. From this:

    Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.
    A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.
    “The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”
    "Similar stories could be told about almost any electronics company.." and in other industries as well, the article goes on to say.

    It's less about the money than about the "flexibility".

    Solzhenitsyn had similar stories about whole divisions of the Soviet workforce held in the Gulag back in the 50s and 60s on political pretexts.

    Well, at least Chinese workers volunteer to go into the dormitories. I suppose that's an improvement.

    I'm sure our indentured servants are not treated quite that badly. For now.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:50:08 AM PDT

  •  just FYI (15+ / 0-)

    the Republicans recently stymied a senate bill that would reward companies for bringing jobs back into the country and remove some rewards from companies who offshore.

  •  Rec X 10 Simple Slavery for Engineers (15+ / 0-)

    I would rec this piece 1000 times if I could.
    Our civilization allows us to accumulate knowledge. As long as we are able to create a working surplus that allows us the means to work on our problems, and we direct a good portion of the surplus toward solving our problems, including those the civilization creates due to 2ed order consequences, we will be okay.
    Engineering knowledge, applied science and math, is crucial to being able to take on problems in physics and chemistry and thermodynamics that are going to determine how we make, store and use power, how we compute, how we grow crops, how we image and fight diseases,  how we live.
    Intensive study with the dedication of a Monk is required to become proficient.

    And yet these are the very people, ,  that the H1B visa targets for bond servitude or to compete with simi-slavery.

    By the way, Wall Street replaced almost all the American quants with H1B visa holders in the early 2000s, with salaries  above 200K a year it was not because of the lower pay.

    To Goldman Sachs in according to their desires, From us in accordance with the IRS.

    by Bluehawk on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:08:02 AM PDT

  •  This is a troll diary. See same woman here... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG, HoopJones, elmo

    I ♥ President Barack Obama.

    by ericlewis0 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:11:17 AM PDT

  •  MI is crying for engineers.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They are also trying to hire 750 software developers.  All you have to do is leave Texas.  

    State of Michigan has been traveling the country holding job fairs and trying to recruit talent.  They are cancelling as many as they are doing because of lack of interest.

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:29:00 AM PDT

  •  The fed is using H1B visa fees to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    awesumtenor, FG

    fund training back here at home.

    I don't disagree that there is unemployed talent already here.   They either just don't know about the jobs or don't want to move.   I get not wanting to move.  Tons of Michiganders left when MI led the recession into the bottomless pit.   Families split up.  One kept the home fires burning and the other left the state for employment.   You do what you have to do, and we want our Michiganders to come home.  

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:37:06 AM PDT

  •  And this.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Companies struggle to fill jobs for skilled laborers
    Shortage expected to increase over 5 years

    Rising automotive sales and wages in low-cost countries mean one thing: increased manufacturing in Southeast Michigan. Tool and die makers and machine shops are busy again, but that growth comes with a cost, and it's spelled "Help Wanted."

    Manufacturers are scrambling to find skilled laborers in an industry of advancing technology following years of massive job cuts -- from outsourcing early in the millennium and the industry collapse three years ago.

    As many as 600,000 skilled laborer positions remain unfilled for U.S. manufacturers, according to a fall survey by Deloitte LLP and The Manufacturing Institute. The survey revealed that 67 percent of respondents had a moderate to severe shortage of skilled laborers.

    New Hudson-based Richard Tool and Die Corp. needs as many as 20 skilled laborers at its New Hudson and Belleville plants, but it is coming up short.

    "Business is up, and we need to hire, but we just can't find good people," said Steven Rowe, executive vice president and general manager.

    Richard Tool and Die isn't alone. According to a November survey by Troy-based Original Equipment Supplies Association, 57 percent of automotive suppliers are having difficulty finding skilled laborers. That's up from 35 percent in 2010.

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:41:00 AM PDT

    •  This is the kind of industry self serving (14+ / 0-)

      articles created by self serving lobbyists used to fool lawmakers into allowing discrimination of U.S. workers.

      The numbers are completely suspect and flies in the face of the reality on the ground, faced by skilled unemployed workers.

      One would have to believe that unemployed U.S. workers would rather starve than take jobs.

      •  What's the pay? I saw an article a few years ago (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYCee, m00finsan, sethtriggs

        where a guy was saying he couldn't find CNC machine operators who would stick with him, even after he offered a 6 week paid training program and a job at $13/hr. For some people, that might seem like a lot of money, but it's less than I made in unskilled jobs, and it won't pay for a house in the Chicago burbs (where the job was located) or my student loans, much less both.

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:31:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If They Raised Wages (18+ / 0-)

      To meet market requirements, maybe they would have better luck.

      "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

      by bink on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:54:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People don't trust manufacturing. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Knarfc, sethtriggs

        Do you really think they are going to encourage their kids into skilled trades as opposed to a college degree when they can't trust corporations or our freaking government?   Wages are a big issue, too.   When US workers have to compete against third world wages, they go down.  

        "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

        by dkmich on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:10:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Pay $40 an hour, they'd fill those jobs in a NY (12+ / 0-)


      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:56:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Total Parasites (10+ / 0-)

      The tool and die business is kinda funny.  It's a boom and bust business and the firms in the Detroit area are almost totally dependent on the auto industry.  In other areas of the country, they tend to track other industries, but that's Detroit's experience.

      In my experience, most tool and die shops are pretty small operations, with total employment in most ranging between 5 to 25 people.  They tend to be privately owned and the owner actually came out of the industry which they're serving.  Often, they spent a lot of time on the shop floor themselves using the products they're now producing.  The work they do is truly remarkable, especially when one realizes the tolerances and the materials which are being used today.

      Unfortunately, the owners of these businesses are not big into employee development.   They typically expect someone else to do the heavy lifting of training workers in the processes they must use in the shop.  Back in the old days, the auto factories in the Detroit area used to do this and a ready pool of potential recruits existed.  Alas, the auto industry bust of the last few years means that many potential workers with just the right skill sets doesn't exist.  They got fired by the auto companies just when they should have been learning some of those advanced techniques the tool and die makers need.  Now, the auto companies have either workers too old for the tool and die makers or way too inexperienced because they were just hired by the auto companies under the lower entry wage provisions.  Either way, there is a void in the employment python and some industries are just going to have to shoulder the burden of actually helping train their own new employees.  For some in this crowd, that is going to be a real shock.

      "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

      by PrahaPartizan on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:07:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  25 Years Ago I Warned My Fellow IT Workers (24+ / 0-)

    as they were snarking about the stupid manfufacturing workers who were "whining" about their lost jobs, that this and outsourcing were coming for their jobs.

    We need to unite blue and white collar work forces on all these labor issues which are essentially the same.

    I had to turn blue collar 15 years ago so I'm not going to lift a finger for this specific community that will never have me back, not on this narrow an issue.

    But if it generalizes across all levels of labor I'll be front and center pitching in.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:50:30 AM PDT

    •  Careful, Gooserock (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Woman in video is an outed super troll.
      Maybe she makes some salient points in this particular clip, but this diary reeks, IMO. Cheers

      I ♥ President Barack Obama.

      by ericlewis0 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:58:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  YOU are trolling this diary. (12+ / 0-)

        YOU do not take issue with any of the facts, but with the woman in the video.

        YOU are not dealing with the subject of industry lobbying for more H1B visas when trained and qualified Americans are available to do the job.
        Deal with that.

        Quit avoiding the subject.

        To Goldman Sachs in according to their desires, From us in accordance with the IRS.

        by Bluehawk on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:12:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Where is the information supporting this? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        an outed super troll

        H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

        by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:43:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  precisely (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nchristine, greengemini, ferment

          and as I know engineering Ph.Ds from from MIT and Stanford who had to struggle at one point, not to mention recent IT grads who couldn't find a job, the problem is real.

          are even Americans with degrees inferior as fou suggests elsewhere?

          I don't believe that.  Less hungry, but inferior?

          And I saw this exchange real time as I participated in this event.  It it at least a year old, but one thing is for sure: I had the same reaction to Obama's reaction to this woman: doesn't he know that American engineers have had problems for quite some time?

          Frankly, I don't think there is a profession that is bullet proof anymore, excepting the 1%'s professions.

          Even doctors can find themselves out in the cold although I am sure they can move to a rural community and find some work.  Whether that work will pay their medical school loans is another question.

          Donate to Occupy Wall Street here:

          by BlueDragon on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:46:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Even a broken clock has correct time twice a day. (0+ / 0-)

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:36:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's a fair point. (15+ / 0-)

      If the IT workers had formed a union back in the 1980s, when they were the rare keepers of a relatively new art, they would have an organization now that could advocate for them.

      But even many of the white-collar types who didn't buy into Reaganism entirely bought into the myth that unions just protect incompetent workers and win unaffordable benefits, rather than seeing organization of labor as something for everyone. They said "well, tough shit" when the factories moved overseas, and didn't stand with their union brothers and sisters who were losing their jobs and livelihoods. And the tech sector is one of the sectors that still most strongly stands against teachers' unions' efforts to protect public education from corporatism.

      And now all of that's coming back to bite them.

      If IT workers want to stop H-1B outsourcing, they need to start a national union of IT workers, whether working or out of work, who will advocate and vote on this issue.

      They need to organize workers in tech companies and IT departments and start collectively bargaining—beginning with threatening to quit en masse and refusing to train anyone new on the technologies that, often, only the person who coded them really knows.

      And then they need to stand in solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the other unions—including the trade unions, the laborers' unions, the service-sector unions, and the public-sector unions—rather than looking down on unions by buying into the myth that unions protect incompetence or that they're relics of another time.

      There still may be time for IT workers to undo the painful results of decades of looking down on unions and unionized workers, but they have to start now.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:22:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The IT workers need to BUY their Indusrty (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Bain and company are LEVERAGED buyouts specialists.
        They bought out companies with a penny on the dollar and borrowed 10% from pension funds. The rest of the money they had the companies borrow and pay them back.  

        The workers unions could do the same thing.  Use leverage to buy the companies and save their own jobs rather than pay all the company's retained earnings to assholes.

        To Goldman Sachs in according to their desires, From us in accordance with the IRS.

        by Bluehawk on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:17:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps we need guilds and unions to replace HR. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Based on the complaints of HR I've seen above, an external system of training, evaluation and ranking might be better, if it can be instituted in a fair manner for all workers in that industry.

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:54:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You have a point (8+ / 0-)

      OTOH, saying we have 600,000 H1Bs because our STEM workers don't make the grade is pure BS.

      •  Then again, maybe we americans aren't smart. (0+ / 0-)

        I wanted to go into STEM, to study meteorology but I had difficulty with Algebra 2, taking it 4-5 times between high school and college and finally settling for a D. Meanwhile, my IQ is genius and my ACT score was high. Then again, it was probably other factors than brains, since I didn't hardly ever do the homework cause it led to burn-out.

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:42:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Epitome of arrogance, that lot. (0+ / 0-)

      So many of them were so carried away with themselves, their new breed of fabulousness - "one for one!" was the fab rallying cry. Unions could go the way of the dinosaur. So they thought.

      Frankly, I cannot stand to listen to Obama go on about Romney's outsourcing when he (and the Dem party) is no better. So I dont. He is just another political huckster, as far as Im concerned.

      And what he has done to teachers/unions with his neoliberal reforms on steroids - sending the majority in that profession on a trajectory down to a pool of a revolving door, low-paid, unprotected, beleaguered workforce - is nothing short of his fabled 11th dimensional chess dimension moves... just in the wrong dimension!

      Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a lame party, or should it drive a lame party to break out? If it cant, should it break out?

      by NYCee on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:39:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Redo due to oops: (0+ / 0-)

        Forgot to edit out that extra "dimension"

        Bugs me, so I'll say it again:

        And what he [Obama] has done to teachers/unions with his neoliberal reforms on steroids - sending the majority in that profession on a trajectory down to a pool of a revolving door, low-paid, unprotected, beleaguered workforce - is nothing short of his fabled 11th dimensional chess moves... just in the wrong dimension!

        Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a lame party, or should it drive a lame party to break out? If it cant, should it break out?

        by NYCee on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:44:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A bit harsh. Obama is our best hope, if we (0+ / 0-)

        could just get a message through to him.

        Romney would be foreign worker importer on steroids.

         The few measly protections, such as 140,000 numerical limitation per year would all be lifted.

        •  That's because I am harsh, with no apologies. (0+ / 0-)

          Obama has had 4 years as Prez and 4 as Senator(well, probably 2 given the prez campaigning demands) and he had 10 yrs prior in the IL state senate. In other words, he has been politically cued in to the issues of our time for a long time, and he has turned out to be a complete establishment player. Sure, Romney could be worse, but not really in the direction we are going, just getting us there a little faster.

          I am harsh because I have had to watch what he has done to my profession. (Added to how he has acted in other realms.) And the impact has been harsh. It is GOPawful.

          Just now, I have MTP in the background, and there is new breed Dem, Michelle Rhee, the education reformers' superhero, wishing aloud that Obama would talk more about education (neoliberal deform) in the campaign (ie, the blah blah that ed reforms make the economy workforce better equipped, thus get our jobs rolling... just what you are griping about, understandably... how they play games around the truth on this).

          And there was David Brooks, very tellingly saying, Oh no! He should leave education out of it. Obama has done so much there (for the establishment, against teachers and their unions) that it is better to keep that under the radar! If he shines a light on it, he will lose the unions support, roil them up.

          Obama's own PR henchwoman, Stephanie Cutter, lashed out at Romney's side when they said he was a lackey for the unions (lol, yeah, just like he's a socialist!). She correctly came back with: Oh yeah? Ask the unions how they feel about him?

          She was bragging. I was sickened. But she was right.

          However, most of the unions are tethered to the Dems, so they continue to cave, and we continue to weaken. Even when they squeak about it, like the NEA a couple years ago. The next year they are lining up to do an early endorsement. They are all just hanging on for the last patches of rapidly disappearing ground. Isnt that what we are all doing when we vote Democrat? They hump that Overton Window rightward, time and again. Its a game. a big game.

          Chicago's teacher union, CTU, is the best example right now of good union leadership waging a real fight against what Obama-Duncan-reformers have done. Fitting, since its CORE upstart caucus won over the old guard caucus 2 yrs ago, due in large part to the damage Obama's ed sec, Arne Duncan, had done as chancellor of Chicago's public schools (or, as they now call that position in Chicago, "CEO"). The community joined that caucus after he had savaged their neighborhood schools, and they rose up together. All for one. You know, iike in the olden times. When unions had strength. Now, they are in line to strike, within 27 days. Rahm being their mgmt foe. Again, Team Obama!

          Obama is a political player. He isnt fighting for the middle class. He is tweaking the bad lot they all bought into, staving off a little rot in this corner and that corner, and then they increase the rot when most people arent looking (esp with partisan blinders on)... to impress us and get us to give him power again.

          We've already made him a mega multi millionaire. (Post-presidential speechifying and books make for big bucks, See: Bill Clinton)

          Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a lame party, or should it drive a lame party to break out? If it cant, should it break out?

          by NYCee on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:31:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You think this admin is bad? Look at Dkos (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluehawk, nchristine, Nada Lemming, itsbenj
    Hidden by:

    they support importing low wage workers to compete with US Citizens. Disagree and you're a racist.

    It's too bad about IT workers but you can always pick up a shovel for $9 an hour.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:54:51 AM PDT

  •  It is very sad that the richest and most powerful (15+ / 0-)

    nation in the world with over 300 million people can't seem to properly educate two million people.

    That is if you were to believe Arne Duncan, which I don't.

    We have to educate our way to a better economy.  There are two million jobs out there today in our country that we can't fill because we don't have the educated workforce to fill those jobs.
    Yeah, that's the problem with the economy.  /snark

    Arne said exactly that on the Daily Show at 7:03

  •  My sister is an executive with a hotel chain, (7+ / 0-)

    and we talked about it once. The chain has Indians for all their IT.

    She was adamant about the need for current skills, which she says someone out of work for 3 years can have.

    While I am unsure how a 22 y o from Mumbai can have better skills compared to a citizen here with 10 years experience, I didn't argue.

    She doesn't hire the IT people, anyway.

    This is, of course, the difference between republicans and human beings. - Captain Frogbert

    by glorificus on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:59:06 AM PDT

  •  Obama knows what he's talking about. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG, ericlewis0

    I am also an IT professional. I work with many foreign nationals who are far and away more skilled than their American counter parts.

    What's sad is that this diary was recommended without any credible evidence in support of its claim.

    Have you googled Romney today?

    by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:15:34 AM PDT

    •  So you and Obama are in favor of outsourcing (13+ / 0-)

      because you think American STEM workers can't compete?  Shouldn't really be attacking Bain then.

      •  So now a job on American soil given to a foreign (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ericlewis0, HoopJones

        national has been outsourced?  Seems to me that if the job is here, American grads can fairly compete for it ...

        So you're in favor of placing legal restrictions on the ability of American companies to hire foreign workers in the United States?  Seems to me you shouldn't be attacking xenophobia then.

        Have you googled Romney today?

        by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:30:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (12+ / 0-)
          According to the AFL-CIO DPE, there were 350,000 foreign guest workers in STEM related occupations. H-1B foreign guest workers are 22% of the computer related jobs. That's huge.
          Literally the H-1B is called the offshore outsourcing Visa by the India BPO industry.

          If restricting work visas is xenophobic, then every other nation has a bad case of xenophobia.

          And opposing Bain outsourcing but being OK with H1Bs is still hypocrisy to me. YMMV.

          •  The article you cite makes a distinction (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            between outsourcing and hiring foreign nationals here, btw.

            What restrictions would you place on visas, and why do you suppose that such restrictions wouldn't accelerate outsourcing?  What's wrong with just plain-ole competing for a job?  After all, it's not like American companies aren't hiring Americans because they are American ...

            Have you googled Romney today?

            by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:05:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The only restriction I would place (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JPax, itsbenj, greengemini, m00finsan

              is that a job has to be FIRST made available to the U.S. mlabor market before a company can recruit a forignn worker for the job. (Not just a checkbox on a firm saying you did)

               The job should be advertised on a DOL website where activity can be monitored.  If more than X people with the educational degree apply, then a visa should not be required.

              WHat would you have against this requirement?

              •  Define "made available." (0+ / 0-)

                Are you saying that companies should have to hire an American before a foreigner if an American wants the job?  How is that not a quota system?

                Have you googled Romney today?

                by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:26:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is no more a quota system, than election voting (0+ / 0-)

                  is a quota system.

                  Every country has a duty to put the welfare of it's citizens before the welfare of other countries citizens.

                  Should the U.S. department of education divide up their budget to build public schools for every student in the entire world? NO. etc..etc...etc...

                  •  That's ridiculous. (0+ / 0-)

                    So you're saying that the availability of jobs should be like the availability of voting?  Which is to say only open to American citizens?  Is that your definition of "made available"?

                    Of course American companies should be encouraged to hire American workers because it stimulates our economy.  Every dollar not sent to a foreign country is better for our economy than one that is (unless of course foreigners are buying American exports).  

                    But if you're seriously arguing that American companies should only hire American workers then ...  that's just absurd.

                    Have you googled Romney today?

                    by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:46:52 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  When you have two people with identical (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      greengemini, m00finsan

                      resumes, but one is a US citizen and one not, the US company should hire a US citizen first.  Now, if the candidate was superior to the US citizen in qualifications, then it can go to a foreign resident.  But, the job will invariably go to the non US citizen because that person is more willing to work for 25k in a 60k position.

                      •  What? (0+ / 0-)
                        But, the job will invariably go to the non US citizen because that person is more willing to work for 25k in a 60k position.
                        Again.  Why do you assume that foreign workers are at best equally skilled?  You said "invariably" which means that foreign workers are never more skilled than American workers.  

                        Do you even work in IT?  If you did, you would know that that argument doesn't pass the laugh test.

                        Have you googled Romney today?

                        by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:31:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I've been a mainframe programmer for 15 years (0+ / 0-)

                          professionally.  Unprofessionally more than 30.  No where did I say that foreign workers are NEVER more skilled than American.  I want a job.  A decent job programming.  Something that has some security that I'll be out of work next week.  Yet, corporations have decided that hiring permanent workers is not the way to go.  They want temp project workers.  Guess what... programming takes a whole hell of a lot more than being able to get a clean compile in the shortest amount of time.

                          I want a job.  Why should my job go to someone else with the same or less experience than myself??

                        •  Companies also don't want employees that will (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          tell them to their face that the idea of specing, coding, and testing 160 pgms in 6 weeks is fucking insane and a huge financial liability risk.  Yet, that's what I'm going to be trying to do in the next 6 weeks.  Because their dipshit users won't step up to the plate and get an exception to a moratorium so that reasonable testing and verification can take place.  They seem to think that loosing up to 120 million if this code isn't in and producing by the end of August is a whole hell of a lot cheaper than the millions that they are sure to loose if there's anything wrong in the new code because of lack of appropriate testing time.

                          You're barking at the wrong person about experienced programming skills.

            •  the problem with (7+ / 0-)

              "plain ole competing for a job" is that American workers need jobs that will provide them with a living America.

              This may be a good time to remind everyone that one of the most basic functions of a government is to care for its citizens.  Currently we pay taxes to a government that hands some of them over to these big companies while they are simultaneously ditching US workers.  It's the height of stupidity for a government to undermine its own workforce this way, and it needs to stop.

              •  I agree that all workers deserve a living wage. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                IT jobs generally provide them.

                Have you googled Romney today?

                by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:23:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  And life-work balance. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sethtriggs, nchristine

                Maybe the immigrants are IT super-heroes, capable of coding tall mainframes in a single bound, and maybe they are the cream of the crop from another country and their presence enriches America, or at least that industry, as a whole. But should productiveness the sole arbiter of success?

                America may seem like a monoculture, but it's not. Different regions have different philosophies, religions and economic cultures that reward different levels of life-work balance. We should support multiculturalism in America. Importing workers who share the same sort of all-for-the-company idea of business is not multiculturalism, no matter what the color of their skin or their first language: it can be a mental monoculture.

                Allowing this may only lead to the Burnout of America.

                -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:24:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm fortunate enough to work for a company (0+ / 0-)

                  that actively encourages such balance.  I agree that people and companies are better off when workers strive to produce quality work which often requires longer consideration.  Work for long hours and low pay is never really rewarding, and rarely leads to innovation.

                  However, having said that, it would be impossible for me to advance in this field if I just punched a clock for eight hours.  I've always put in extra hours for self-study.  You have to do that to compete in IT, and in my experience, international workers just do that as a matter or course.  There is no cultural resistance to unsolicited, self-directed self-study.

                  My advice to people who want to compete in IT: read.  And no, don't read "Learn Unix in 24 Hours for Dummies."  Read this:

                  If you master these books, there isn't a company in the world that won't hire you in a heartbeat.

                  Have you googled Romney today?

                  by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:42:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So the 1.6 million displaced workers are just lazy (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Clues, nchristine

                    people who didn't buy a book with the title "...for dummies"   This book is what is standing between these highly trained professionals and the jobs they have lost.  Got it.

                    I am an immigrant minority and I would never insult my adopted countrymen this way.

                    •  Who is displaced? Where? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                      Have you googled Romney today?

                      by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:54:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  ?? (0+ / 0-)
                      I am an immigrant minority and I would never insult my adopted countrymen this way.
                      You're argument that American workers don't choose to compete in a field that they have the skills for is an insult to Americans, IMHO.

                      Have you googled Romney today?

                      by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:55:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually, I think fou said the opposite... (0+ / 0-)

                      that they should read a different set of books and NOT the "...for dummies" books.

                      I'm not an IT person. I thought about going into computer science and did some coding in high school and sold IT equipment for a year, but that's the limit of my experience.

                      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                      by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:38:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  That's just not true (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    IT Professional, nchristine

                    and it subscribes to the Republican philosophy that people who can't get jobs or don't succeed are either lazy or unskilled or uneducated.  It rankles especially now that I'm training my offshore replacement, one that my company admits doesn't have the background or the skills to do my job, but they've tried 8 different people in 6 different countries and none of them have worked out, so in the end it came down to pay rates or skills, and they chose skills.

                    There are plenty of very highly skilled IT people losing their jobs every day to less skilled cheaper replacements.

    •  Fou, are for or against requiring U.S. employers (10+ / 0-)

      to first make jobs available to qualified U.S. workers to compete for before recruiting exclusively abroad?

      •  Wow. My has the world changed. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HoopJones, asym, sethtriggs

        I'm an African American woman. I'm first-generation American. I have an engineering degree.

        My whole life I was told that I benefitted from a quota system that was unfair to more skilled white students. Now I'm being asked if I'm in favor of a quota system that benefits less skilled American workers.

        I prefer that US companies hire the best talent they can find. With all of the cultural and institutional advantages American workers have, there is no excuse for any American worker to be outworked by or less skilled than a foreign worker.

        One of my old bosses was one of three Americans in his computer engineering program. He ended up getting a liberal arts degree.  At one point,  he earned 250k a year as an IT professional for a boss who disliked Asians.  The company went belly up in the crash.

        This country has always been better for being a nation of immigrants. It's the constant interbreeding that makes us stronger.

        Have you googled Romney today?

        by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:54:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Was that a Yes or No to the question? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ctsteve, Chi, Knarfc

          I cannot tell.

          •  That comment person has done an admirable (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IT Professional, nchristine

            job of confusing the issue of immigrant workers in American (i. e. and the issue of immigration in general) with the issue of non-immigrant HIB visa workers in America...and as far as I can tell no one caught it.

            Apparently the point is all American citizens are underskilled and overcompensated in comparison to non nationals and all except the most recent immigrants.

            H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

            by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:33:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It's about cost (13+ / 0-)

          It's cheaper to hire non-citizens. That's what's behind this. The "talent" argument is a ruse. Take it from someone in IT who has watched many, many highly productive and capable people with experience and PhD's get replaced by insourced labor with far less experience and education.

          If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

          by rhetoricus on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:03:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I don't work with any entry-level engineers (0+ / 0-)

            and I can assure you that all of the engineers I work with make upper-middle class salaries. And yet, my workplace is still dominated by foreign nationals.

            The talent argument is not a ruse. Talent is not the only factor, sure. But it's not a ruse.

            Have you googled Romney today?

            by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:10:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is an entire industry faking (3+ / 0-)

              resumes, degrees and experience.  It is now an art form

              I assure you that some of the engineers that have crossed your path are on their first job, regardless of what their resumes claim.

              It is however irrelevant, since everyone has to have a first job at some time or another.

              Can you explain why most H-1Bs are filed for entry level positions?

              •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

                I work for a company that background checks its employees with a AAA+ rated agency.  What you're suggesting would be nearly impossible where I work.

                So know you're saying foreign workers have an advantage because they can fake their resumes to get low wage jobs?  Well if that's the case, then the "more deserving" American workers are really lazy, because it's not as if they can't cheat also.

                Look.  Your argument that Obama is "naive" doesn't pass the smell test.  If we are to believe your argument, we would have to believe that IT degree programs in the US are dominated by more talented Americans who can't get jobs when they get out because they're given to less talented foreign workers.  But that's simply not the case.  IT degree programs, particularly those in top-ranked schools, are dominated by foreign nationals.  I mean what?  Are you now going to argue that the US really has the highest math and science test scores in the industrialized world, and that "other countries" have been faking theirs?!

                Please.  This kind of entitled resentment is the reason American workers are falling behind.  

                Have you googled Romney today?

                by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:12:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  IT degrees are not dominated by US citizens (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  greengemini, m00finsan

                  because the job prospects are weak.  What else would you expect to happen with flooding STEM careers?

                  They are making a pragmatic decision for their future.  We are losing our best young minds from STEM careers to other careers.

                  If the H-1B program was reigned in by protections against the displacement or the US workforce, the smartest students would again flock to STEM careers.

                  •  Okay, then where are the smartest students (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:


                    You're saying that Americans are electing to sit home and not compete for high paying jobs because of this horde of 'ferners'?    You're saying this even though you're claiming that American workers are as if not more talented?!

                    That doesn't pass the smell test either; particularly because you don't even need a degree to get an IT job.  I've worked with at least two engineers, both of whom were American, neither of whom had college of any kind.  One of them was extremely bright.  The other, not so much.  Point is: they both had jobs.  They both had jobs that paid a decent wage.

                    If they can get jobs, then why can't our best and brightest?  The bottom line is if you are bright, you can compete in this field.  It's laughable to suggest that a field that generates billions has no jobs for the smartest among us, particularly when American companies are still the most innovative.

                    Have you googled Romney today?

                    by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:22:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  First generation= not a descendent of slaves? (0+ / 0-)

          I thought that righting a historic wrong was part of the rationale for Affirmative Action. I know that continuing discrimination is a part of it, sure, but why would your parents come to America knowing you'll be discriminated against? It strikes me as gaming the system and benefiting from past injustices done to others.

          Or did you mean some other quota system?

          -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

          by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:32:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Over the years I have seen 4 H1Bs that were more (4+ / 0-)

      skilled or equally skilled engineers in their field. And about 80 that were not.

      So while there are exceptionally talented people from Vietnam, India, and England and Wales who get H1Bs, most of them that I have known have an average skill level for their position. And it does not take into account wild dedication The best thermodynamicist that I ever knew was a drop-out from Cal Tech and did not even HAVE a collage degree.  

      To Goldman Sachs in according to their desires, From us in accordance with the IRS.

      by Bluehawk on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:32:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course your assesment is subjective, as is (0+ / 0-)

        mine. But the argument that American workers are no less talented doesn't offer an explanation for why American companies recruit foreign workers when it's more expensive to do so.  It doesn't explain why companies are willing to recruit workers who are not native English speakers with the same cultural fluency as American workers.  And no, foreign workers are not always paid less than American workers.

        In my experience, foreign workers are often more dedicated and willing to work longer hours. Perhaps that's a key differentiator.   But again, my anecdotal experience suggests that foreign workers are, on balance, more skilled and driven.

        Have you googled Romney today?

        by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:50:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (6+ / 0-)

          "In my experience, foreign workers are often more dedicated and willing to work longer hours."

          In many cases they are more 'dedicated' because if they don't do as told, they're summarily deported and their families are counting on them for financial support back in the home country.

        •  Then they (6+ / 0-)

          are paid less, as you say, they are willing to work longer hours.

          So that's exactly why companies are giving these people preferential treatment: they're cheaper.

          And what does "more dedicated" mean but people who are willing to endure indenture-like work conditions?

          Oh, and thanks for promoting abusive work conditions and being part of the gutting of America.

          The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:52:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Even if the hourly rate is the same, there are (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            other savings wen one person does more work due to per person costs, such as worker benefits, cubicle space, equipment, and training time.

            -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

            by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:37:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Lie (6+ / 0-)
          it's more expensive to do so.  
          H1B workers are here only because it's cheaper to hire them than an engineer with 20 years experience.  No other reason.  There is no shortage, period.  

          I know many H1B workers.  I believe they're like all other workers.  Some talented, some not.  The bulk is average.  

          H1B workers from India make $12-20 per hour or so. They live in dorms owned by their home country's IT company, and pool their resources to send money home.   They are literally hoping for a green card so they can make American money.  

          It's  not a racist argument, by the way.  White H1Bs also come from Canada, South Africa, and Great Britain.    Those workers get paid a little more, but they are also underpaid by American standards.  

          II cant believe Obama doesn't know this.  Either his is woefully out of touch, or he is on the wrong side of the class war.  

          ‎"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." --Frederick Douglass

          by Nada Lemming on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:16:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Excuse me, but I work for a world-class (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Futuristic Dreamer

            technology company that is dominated by foreign nationals.  Workers whose relocation costs are much higher than those of American workers.  I'm hardly lying.  

            If foreign workers are dominating IT simply because they're cheaper, then explain to me why IT degree programs are dominated by foreigners, and why, for decades running, math and science test scores in the US have ranked among the bottom of those in the industrialized world.

            I've worked in IT for many years.  I've seen jobs outsourced to foreign countries, I've seen jobs given to H1B visa holders, and I've seen low-wage IT jobs given to American workers as well.  My argument isn't that the practice of giving lower-wage jobs to foreign nationals isn't happening.  My argument is that one cannot say that foreign workers are less skilled and deserving simply because many are given lower wage jobs.

            This diarist made the claim that Obama doesn't know about IT because he believes the "myth" that foreign workers are more talented.  I'm saying that that "myth" is closer to reality that many Americans want to think.

            Have you googled Romney today?

            by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:05:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You have your prejudices (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greengemini, m00finsan, Nada Lemming

              on clear display.  You are probably a headhunter and perhaps part of the problem, if you can generalize based on nationality.

              Why would you object to a law requiring jobs being made available to U.S. workers before allowing a company being allowed to hire a handcuffed imported worker?  

              •  LOLZ! (0+ / 0-)
                if you can generalize based on nationality.
                Isn't your whole diary an argument that foreign workers are not more talented?

                Oh my God, you slay me!

                I'm an engineer, btw.

                Have you googled Romney today?

                by fou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:05:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My argument is that jobs should not be reserved (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Knarfc, Clues, Nada Lemming

                  for foreign workers on American soil.  Equally qualified U.S. workers should be allowed to compete for these jobs.

                  The H-1B program allows this. Why can't you state whether you would be against jobs being advertised on a DOL website where applicant activity could be monitored?

                  What would you have against this requirement?  What is the worse that would happen?

            •  You (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Are on the wrong side of the class war.  You might want to examine why that is.  

               The cost of bringing them in is borne by the Tatas of the world, and deducted from their paycheck, making them indentured workers.  i KNOW this for a fact.  

              I have worked in IT for 20 years myself.  I have seen my hourly rates personally go from an average $150 per hour back down to $25 for long term engagements, and now it's back up to $50 an hour or so.  Yay me!  I'm making 1/3 of my former pay based on market conditions that I'm not even competing with.  An H1B worker has never replaced me but the market has definitely changed, which was the intent of the oligarchs in the first place.  and I do better than most.  Oh, and sometimes I have to go months between engage,eats because there is a lack of demand.  

              And you and Obama promote and further their propaganda.    

              ‎"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." --Frederick Douglass

              by Nada Lemming on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:34:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Gee thanks so much for telling me that my 15 (7+ / 0-)

      years of experience in computer programming isn't as good as a recent grad from India.  I bet that this kid wouldn't be able to be part of a team of 4 that speced, coded, and tested 51 programs converting 5 tables from IMS to DB2 in 4 weeks and no real errors have been found to date..... This recent grad doesn't have the skills to decipher what is needed to be done in that amount of time.

    •  They get paid less. They live in lower cost of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlueDragon, m00finsan

      living countries.

      So of course they are more skilled...

      H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

      by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:39:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  job listings demand almost super human ability (16+ / 0-)

    I never buy those numbers. My experience is that they have to be inflated.

    You get out of school and jobs want 4 years experience for what is entry level work. They won't even talk to you.

    Once you get that experience, the jobs out there want you to know more than is realistically possible. I do web design and they'll expect you to know every coding language out there -- even ones completely irrelevant.

    You could argue that it's an HR thing and they don't know what they're asking for, but it happens so consistently that it's hard to believe that. They're all looking for this ideal person that knows everything, but would be willing to make significantly less than the supposed median income for the job.

    And then they wonder why people don't apply? Even ignoring the shoddy salaries, people are scared off by jobs that expect a super human. And in my experience, job listings like this are incredibly common. I'd argue they're the majority.

    So of course those numbers are off. The problem isn't that people aren't educated, but rather that employers have figured out that they can beat the shit out of one person who is desperate for a job instead of hiring two people to handle it better.

  •  I tell all my IT friends (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yella dawg, sethtriggs

    That if you are not training yourself to keep your skills up to date than you can look forward to unemployment in the future.

    This weekends list of IT training for me, node.js.  

    When I'm stupid and incompetent financially, I get calls from collection agencies and higher interest rates. When the 1% are stupid and incompetent financially they get billions from the government.

    by tarminian on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:52:21 AM PDT

    •  Might not matter when you're older (9+ / 0-)
      Analysis by the GAO revealed that in 2008, among approved H-1B beneficiaries, 83 percent of systems analysts, programmers, and other computer-related workers were under the age of 35. Similarly, 73 percent of electrical and electronics engineers were under the age of 35 in 2008.

      H1Bs are a really good way to do age discrimination.

    •  You are speaking of tools not skills. (6+ / 0-)

      The skill is the ability to find a solution to a problem.  

      This is not an updatable skill.

      If you can code in one language, you can easily transfer this syntax to any other right there on the job, on an as needed basis.  

      •  Finding solutions to problems... not updatable? (0+ / 0-)

        So is one just born with the ability to find solutions, or born without the ability? That doesn't seem likely.

        I'd call the ability "critical thinking." And it must be learned. You can get better at it with practice. Most undergraduate educations boil down to practicing your critical thinking.

      •  ok (0+ / 0-)

        Given that you call yourself "IT Professional" I might say you are right and leave it at that, but experience says otherwise.

        Actually doing real work with the technology is what gives you the ability switch between them easily and also gives you more options when you do propose solutions to a given problem.

        When I'm stupid and incompetent financially, I get calls from collection agencies and higher interest rates. When the 1% are stupid and incompetent financially they get billions from the government.

        by tarminian on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:11:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You're misrepresenting the bill. It deals with (4+ / 0-)

    green cards, not H1B visas.

    All it does is decrease the wait time for Indians and Chinese to get an employment-based green card. It has no effect on visas.

  •  Senate bill HR3012? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Isn't HR the designation for a House resolution? Shouldn't a senate bill be SBxxx?  I would contact my senators, but would like to be sure I'm talking about the right bill.  

  •  Here's a case both sides are right. Kinda. (8+ / 0-)

    As for the diarist's point...

    I am an engineering grad w/o an engineering job. Though in my case I walked away from a job to take care of my elderly mother. But I have no illusions about getting a new engineering gig now that my mother has passed on. There are too many younger engineers out there. And I despise corporate life anyway.

    But in the last place I worked we have engineers from Poland, Turkey, India (lots) China (lots of lots), the Philippines, and the Netherlands.  

    The Chinese engineers were rotated in lots. A half-dozen would come over for about a year. they'd go home and six more would take their place. The other folks were long-term employees. Bottom line, about half the engineering staff was foreign-born. This at our facility just outside Chicago. (The city line was across the street.)

    That being said, who among us thinks the average American is over-educated? It is hard to object to President Obama's call for a better educated American workforce.  Sometimes both sides are sort of right.

    •  are educated undereducated? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicklund, Funkygal

      No one will argue with educating people who are non-educated or actually undereducated, but the issue here isn't between ne're-do-wells and Techs with a BS degree, but between well educated people and well-educated people with who "might" happen to have a slight advantage in a niche programming application. Calling for increases in STEM graduates won't really affect the latter

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:48:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The runaway shop business (6+ / 0-)

    moved into high gear 40 yers ago.  Nobody at the top of the political heap is "misinformed", they understand damned well, and either couldn't care less, or they like it.  If their response was to be anything other than those two, they would have been deemed "unelectable" and mockingly, scornfully marginalized before their political careers got off the ground.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:20:37 AM PDT

  •  Misinformed? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gooderservice, Nada Lemming, Shahryar

    Or following the corporate line because that's who he is?  

  •  When I worked at MSFT over 10 years ago, Gate$ (7+ / 0-)

    had this scam going full bore.

    First off, the H-1B workers I worked with from all corners, China and India in particular, were top notch - and - when you got to know them and their backgrounds, they worked their way to the top, academically, of f'king brutal educational systems by working their asses off - and they were here making way more money than they could make at home.

    At the time, they were on a 2 year green-whatever-the-fuck, and, if they lost their job at MSFT, the ONLY place they could work, they'd be down to the airport and gone in a few weeks.

    They did what they had learned to do in their home cultures - shut the fuck up and do WHATEVER the boss asks !!

    Wow, like, what a shock?

    Oh yeah, IF they kept their heads down for 6 years, they could get a green card and go free agent.

    Of course, keep in mind that friends that they had made in College or University had also heard of this USA place and this stuff called money - and after getting settled in and learning the landscape and using ... google?

    they'd see that their FAT paycheck of $70,000 a year, by India or China standards, was a short $30k or $50,000.

    Oh yeah, and, 70K doesn't go as far in Redmond as it does in Beijing or Bangalore.

    So, let's make a word problem !!

    IF Bill Gate$ the greedy rich prick can fuck 2000 people out of $40,000 dollars a year for 6 years, How much will greedy rich prick Bill put in his pocket? Let me see 2*4*6 = 48, and then there are 7 zeroes!

    Do you think Bill Gate$ and his fucking toadies can figure that out ??????????????????????


    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:46:19 AM PDT

  •  Customers want cheap IT (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrblifil, Chi, greengemini, yella dawg

    Hence there is tremendous downward pressure on IT wages, outsourcing, H1-Bs, offshoring, etc.

    You can hire all the Americans you want, but your rates will not be competitive and you will not win the work.

    It is a vicious, downward spiral.  The only thing that Americans can do is:

    * Form private partnerships to compete with public corporations.  The partnerships do not have the burden of responding to the demands of Wall Street, and can provide better salaries and benefits as a consequence.

    * Look for underserved or unserved markets where small, nimble, cost-competitive partnerships can gain a foothold.

    BTW, a lot of people are making money building apps for iPhone/iPad/Android.  Wonder what the percentage is that are Americans...

    -9.00, -5.85
    If only stupidity were painful...

    by Wintermute on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:50:07 AM PDT

  •  There is a very large insurance company here in (5+ / 0-)

    town.  Well, the US headquarters is located here, the parent is in the Netherlands.  This particular company has been trying to get the local community college to restart its mainframe computer programming program for a number of years, claiming that they will be needing the people soon.

    I have the training and 'general' experience that they are looking for.  Yet, any time I apply for a position with this company, I get turned down.  They seem to think that they'll get mainframe programmers with 5+ years experience with the price tag of a kid just getting a 2 year degree..... yeah, good luck with that one.

    From what I've seen in the recent college scene, very locally, these kids don't have the aptitude to deal with mainframe programming.  Some of them barely have the aptitude for html crap.  There was one student that was bitching on how difficult Java was - if it only had the point and click features of MS Visualstudio, it'd be a whole lot more fun.... How the hell are you going to debug at 2 am with that attitude??  (oh,yeah, you've stated that it's beneath you to have to get up at 2am for a production issue, it can wait til 8am)  You don't even get that there's a ton of code behind that point and click feature, so you're not going to be able to debug anyway.

    •  Kids these days! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I can't argue about the slide of morals and work ethics in this country in the younger generation. Being a little bit older then them, I'm kinda expected to make such statements. However, as the song in the 60s went, "Teach your children well..." But instead of doing that, people are importing someone else's children who were taught well.

      This is really a bipartisan issue, because both parties have contributed to the failure. We need more STEM and less superstition and religion in school curriculae. However, we need more indoctrination in morality and ethics if we hope to make a "system" that works. People seem to forget that a system is systemic, which can squelch freedom and individuality, even in a well designed and fair system.

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:04:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Democrats Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves (3+ / 0-)

    Ane democratic senator that votes for more H-1B visas without making corporations to hire Americans first should not be re-elected.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:05:24 AM PDT

  •  The diary is misguided...badly (4+ / 0-)

    H1-B's have been an important contributor to growing the job base in our economy.  The xenophobic impulse to restrict H1-B's during the Bush years (aided by some Democrats) is what contributed to the acceleration of outsourcing.

    As for the American educated engineer that is out of work, the H1-B influx will actually stimulate a trend towards in-sourcing which will further stimulate local hiring.

    It is not clear to me that all engineers are created equal.  There are different skill sets among them and a different level of demand for those skill sets. I don't think this diary addresses that issue.  The issue is more nuanced.  

     I would encourage American companies to interview American based engineers but not impose a type of penalty if they hired H1-B folks.  In my view (and Obama's) more in-sourcing of skilled labor and skilled jobs will generally benefit the country.

    Alternative rock with something to say:

    by khyber900 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:08:51 AM PDT

  •  In my Workforce Initiative group intake (5+ / 0-)

    ...there were a number of people looking for work in IT fields. Though I'm not an engineer, I have experience in tech support and documentation, and so I could do some jobs in that field myself.

    The people who seek help from Workforce Initiative have been unemployed for a long time. Getting into Workforce Initiative is a long arduous process. First you have to go through two months of group meet-up "steps" before you can even apply. Once you are accepted to the program, several months go by before you get your first appointment with a counselor. After that a few more months go by why the counselor checks your resume and cover letter and hopes you can get a job for yourself.

    It's possible the whole reason for this long process is so Workforce Initiative will get government funding for helping people without actually helping. After all, people are actively applying for jobs and starving and quite possibly falling into homelessness during these months of waiting.

    The reason is that Workforce Initiative is probably being funded by "successful outcomes", but they themselves don't have a basket of jobs to work with.

    From reading this blog, it seems like these corporations could be required to send Workforce Initiative a list of open positions. Then Workforce Initiative would then have jobs to connect people with: people they have already counseled and vetted and know very well.

    Le nirvane n'existe pas. - Etienne Lamotte

    by breakingranks on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:09:57 AM PDT

  •  More information (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    HR 3012 Developments – Sen. Grassley Proposed Increased H-1B Enforcement In Exchange of Removing Per-Country Green Card Limits

    •  Grassley's original amendment (0+ / 0-)

      added protections for the U.S. work force by requiring corporations to post jobs on a DOL website.  He has dropped this in favor of a useless enforcement language.

      Enforcing a law that legally allows the U.S. work force to be ignored in favor of importing workers?  

      The law needs to be CHANGED, not ENFORCED!!!

      •  The law needs to be stopped (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chi, IT Professional, greengemini

        H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act was introduced in September 22, 2011 by Rep. Chaffetz (R-UT) and its goal is to eliminate the employment-based per-country cap entirely by fiscal year 2015 and to raise the family-sponsored per-country cap from 7% to 15%

        It is very important to stress that neither H.R. 3012 nor the Grassley amendments are law yet — they are simply a proposal which has to be voted, in identical form, by both the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, before being signed into law by the President.

  •  Management hates IT (5+ / 0-)

    always has always will. To them IT is a necessary evil, and they would PREFER to staff it with less knowledgable people desperate and grateful for the work, as opposed to people of discretion and ability who feel their expertise ought to command respect and competitive bidding.

    My favorite story in this regard has to do with former CIA director George Tenet. On the day of his resignation ceremony in July of 2004, he admitted to a crowd of well wishers that he needed his teenage son's help in managing his email at work. The head of the freakin' CIA didn't know how to work this newfangled email thingamabob. Most corporate leaders older than 60 are just as likely to be similarly ignorant about why there is a computer at their desk. Yet these same people are charged with hiring the professionals who are supposed to make the computer systems hum.

    Some day the guys from IT may well run this country, but until they become well established and well respected enough in business and in government they will face TREMENDOUS roadblocks to advancement from entrenched interests protecting their turf.

    •  What gets me about management and IT is that (6+ / 0-)

      they think that even though they're outsourcing their once proprietary code that they still have proprietary code.  What a joke!!!  Once you let someone outside of your company have complete access to your code and systems, it's no longer proprietary.  It might as well be open source at that point.  You know damned well that the outsourcing companies are making copies of your once proprietary code and rehashing it for some other company somewhere - maybe even the 'competition' the company outsourcing.

    •  Many IT heroes are college dropouts, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, mrblifil

      which seems anti-establishment. So, it makes sense that old establishment types would look at IT professionals that way, even the ones who finished college.

      After all, coding is writing, which seems like art, and you know how artists are. Not to mention IT has them by the balls, and any IT guy or girl (they let girls into IT!) is a hacker or hacktivist waiting to strike unless you bribe them with money or nerd porn.[/irony]

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:13:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Our son has his grandparents wanting to pay (6+ / 0-)

    to give him a four year college degree.

    So we all sat down and came up with a plan.

    He does college, does a major in mechanical engineering and minors in math and military history, which he adores. He does ROTC while in college. He also takes a gunsmithing course one summer.

    Then he tries for the Air Force. If he gets in, he has a chance to do something interesting in the military branch that is family tradition.  If he makes a career of it, very well.

    If he decides not to make a career of it, he then has a decent resume, in a normal economy. (One can hope.) And if he can't get hired anywhere, he can always start doing gunsmithing from his apartment and build that into a business.

    My parents haven't figured out yet that a four year degree is not an automatic job.  I figure as long as  his eyes, hands, and brain hold out, he can at minimum use his affinity for guns and America's love affair with them to make a living.

    When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:57:55 AM PDT

    •  Or he could get a TV show on guns. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alexandra Lynch, nchristine

      There's several out there now. Although I suspect nothing will be drying up jobs in the Military-Industrial Complex anytime soon, for which his potential degree, skills and military experience would make him a prime candidate.

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:17:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  ROTC (3+ / 0-)

      I'm no expert but my son, in college now, has a friend in ROTC and it pays for all his tuition and on campus housing at their private university and he will automatically be an officer in the military when he graduates and have to serve his enlistment then unless he gets a deferral for grad school.  And I think thats how ROTC works everywhere -- your parents will not need to pay for college.  

  •  NIce... (4+ / 0-)
    However, a free market situation will always be avoided by corporate America, when an indentured(handcuffed) market is available.  
  •  Remember, espcially those of you in IT (10+ / 0-)

    (and I can't believe this has to be repeated here, especially among people who call themselves part of the more highly-skilled elite)

    Your anecdotes are not data.

    You simply can't make a statement that US workers are less qualified because you know a dumbass...or even 5 dumbasses, or even 10.

    Let's approach this problem like the analytical professionals we all claim to be.  We DO have some evidence of H1B misuse..we DO have evidence of people being asked to train their offshore replacements, and we do have some evidence that whole industries have sprung up around teaching big IT companies how to write help-wanted ads that no one can possibly fill, at salaries no one would ever want, and then claiming they can't find people for them.  We know that IBM attempted to file a patent for a method to offshore the greatest possible number of American workers without losing any government tax breaks or other bennies.

    OTOH, I still do not know what to make of those ads that were going around online last year where companies like IBM were trying to hire systems security analysts with 3 years experience and requiring only a GED.  What the hell was up with those?

    We also know that many of the big IT companies have been throwing "dump the employee" parties over the past couple of years, to the tune of over 30k at HP, similar numbers at IBM (whose BRIC employee count has jumped tremendously), 5000 at Intel..etc.  So why are these companies now saying they can't find the talent?  What has happened to the thousands of people who are wandering the streets after being dumped by these companies?  Is someone going to claim they were all incompetent?

  •  Curious... curious indeed. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IT Professional, Shockwave, Chi

    Obama apparently doesn't know much about, or he has withheld judgment on, the global businesss model, which is based on the lowes possible wages and salaries rates.

    H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

    by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:34:09 AM PDT

    •  But he does *know*, apparently, what the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shahryar, Chi

      businesses tell him. And apparently, that is where his assumptions start. Perhaps this is because he gets most of his big money, from businesses, and businessmen, and therefore he spends of his more time there?

      H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

      by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:37:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So how come US placement alternatives haven't (0+ / 0-)

    ...risen up in the US to compete if the supply meets the demand as you say and the US people are or can be where and when needed? Using H1B is not a preference. Never. Wages, hours, and benefits have always fluctuated up and down and especially in IT are very regional and flexible. If the supply meets the demand according to your data then what does the data show that drives  companies over seas?  

    Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

    by kck on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:16:41 AM PDT

    •  I can think of another reason that drives cos... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, m00finsan H1B's beside the key ones I noted above: volume and turnaround time. Consulting firms. Both the strategic consulting firms like McKinsey, Booz, and Bain and the more operational ones like D&T, IBM, Accenture etc. pushed outsourcing and off shoring as new ventures which required new research, RIPs, new hard and soft infrastructure, management changes, etc. These firms are notorious for biased and insufficient research, short term thinking, and staff turnaround.

      While there are IMO times and situations where H1Bs are a godsend, Indian companies as well as the US consultancies spend millions to market their solutions as "best practices" making poor corporate management make poor decisions.


      Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

      by kck on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:11:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  and the race for the bottom continues (6+ / 0-)

    when there is no limit to supply, price goes down down down.  In this case that price is salaries/wages, and living standards.

    WHat happens if you flood the market with cheap goods, you destroy that market,  so tell me what happen when you flood the market with cheap labor?

    Bad is never good until worse happens

    by dark daze on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:17:18 AM PDT

  •  and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, IT Professional

    the hits on American workers continues unabated ....

    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

    by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:23:56 AM PDT

  •  There is no change. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph, NYCee

    George W. Obama

    "It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills. They are technologically very advanced." 4-2-10 Obama's George Bush moment

    by neaguy on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:25:18 AM PDT

  •  I have been in IT for over 30 years and I hear you (6+ / 0-)

    If you want to form a group to address this issue count on me.

    Still, I have some concerns looking into the future.

    What about this;

    Mexico has an edge in human capital. On a per capita basis, it graduates three times more engineers than the United States. Some 30 percent of Mexico's 745,000 university students are enrolled in engineering and technology fields, and 114,000 of them graduate yearly.
    This is Mexico, not China or India, Mexico.

    Still, I want to focus on the 1.8 M Americans.  Let's talk.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:53:14 AM PDT

  •  The kids of the Boomer Gen. have been hammered (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IT Professional, NYCee

    by outsourcing and sb hiring. Our kids went to college in record numbers and many more would have attended trade schools if they were funded.

    It is the hiring and off shoring practices of our elites that have caused the lack of employment of our technically trained young Americans.

    Thanks for the diary and the comments.

  •  Nobody is misinformed about anything.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This is what the Corp Masters have requested, and the good people who run the country are simply obeying.

    End of story.

    Corporations before people.... it's the American way!

    by Lucy2009 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:07:05 PM PDT

  •  Defence industry has no trouble finding talent (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, IT Professional, nchristine

    Despite the engineering skill level required for those highly complicated jobs, the defense industry has no difficulty finding local qualified engineers.  Also by law the defense industry companies can only employ citizens.

    But somehow a website based company somewhere claims it cannot find any qualified engineers locally to simply build, maintain and test a web site.

    That they've been able to sell this nonsense is incredible..

  •  The reason her husband can't find a job (4+ / 0-)

    while corporate America bitches and moans that they can't find qualified Americans to fill jobs?  It's because corporate America isn't trying to find qualified Americans.  They want to hire cheap --> H1B.

    And shame on ericlewis0, nulwee, GoGoGoEverton and cachola for HRing this diary.  Apparently you prefer to sanitize this site's content instead of reading the truth.

    "You're not allowed to sell your countrymen out to multinational financial corporations anymore and still call yourself a patriot." --MinistryOfTruth

    by Kurt from CMH on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:49:28 PM PDT

  •  Those "protections" are also a fraud. The (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, nchristine, rivercard

    corporations write the job requirements so that no one can possibly meet the requirements, or they use some other sort of finagle, so they can claim that they just have to hire a foreign worker.

    How about we just start pushing for "reduce, reduce, reduce," the number of H1B visas or any other visa that allows for this sort of thing? If a corporation can't find people with the exact skill set they need, they should hire a smart engineer and train him for the specifics on the job, or they should support more government training programs.  Those with skills that aren't "fresh" can easily learn the new things when given the opportunity.

    One of the problems we have is that while there are unions for other sectors, engineers and IT people have never felt the need or desire for unions, and in fact, I'm not sure the same model would be good for high-skilled workers.  But what it means is they have no group that advocates for them, no united way of advocating.  It's always just one voice here or there.  Is there any sort of association that advocates for engineers and IT people?

  •  Wow! I just watched the video, and I liked what (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yella dawg, howarddream, nchristine

    I heard from Obama, and I hope the woman in the video really does take him up on it.  Obama says he does want to know what's really going on, and the only way he's going to know is if we tell him.  I'll be writing to on this issue, and I hope everyone else here will too.  Remember, those corporations have people in Washington all the time, talking to the people in power.  We've got to be talking also.

    •  But when talking with people in (0+ / 0-)

      Washington, on issues of concern, for maximum impact, use dollars. This is how it works, all apologies, distractions, excuses, and changes asiide.

      H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

      by Knarfc on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:36:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think I'm more confused now than I was when (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I started reading this diary. On the one hand I don't like the xenophobic argument that we've got to keep the foreigners out. On the other hand I can totally see US corporations finding anyway possible to find a way to hire cheaper people and make them work longer hours.

    Maybe I'm in the same boat as Obama. I'll take him at his word and hope he finds out what happened to this ladies husband and why he can't find a job.

    I just hope he can use that to whack some greedy folks over the head.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

    by CTMET on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:27:23 PM PDT

  •  Bill Gates and his ilk promoted the H1B program to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, rivercard

    bring in compliant workers and drive down salaries and benefits for all. And they got on to the "lack of skilled workers" meme for that purpose in a typical "blame the victim" fashion.  Now it is being used to shred our public schools.  Microsoft was notorious for using temp workers for extended period of time. This came to light when a temp worker (or is it a class action suit, can't remember well) filed a suit demanding benefits and the judge ruled against Microsoft.

    Just like in the free trade debate, we need to be very careful in not blaming the H1B  workers who themselves are victims and are in a polished form of indentured servitude to their employer.

    A good idea I came across - let H1B not be tied to employers but with a way for government to track the visa holders' status (can' remember the details). Employers still need to prove that there is a real need for H1B worker. That way there won't be fraud, H1B workers won't be exploited and US workers won't be shafted. A win-win situation for all workers and corporations who are sincere.

    "The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out”. - George Carlin

    by Funkygal on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:11:50 PM PDT

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