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No seriously, why bother?

We're being told that if someone wants to get guns, to hurt people there is NOTHING you or the government can do to prevent it.  One can reasonably ask then, why bother with anything we do?

Why bother locking our homes?  

If someone really wanted to get in, that lock/deadbolt won't stop them.

Why bother locking our cars?

If someone really wanted to steal it, it would be gone.

If your an abused wife, why bother leaving the relationship?  

He'll find you.

Why bother with metal detectors at the airport, court houses and the like?

etc. etc. etc.

WHY BOTHER?!!!!  

But the fact that it was against the law did not prevent it from happening."
 - Mitt Romney
Thinkprogress
Using the metric now being given to us by the NRA, and their puppet Republicans, if someone really wants to do something bad to you, your family, your property THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP THEM.

So why do we do half of the things we do to protect ourselves, our families and our property?  

It's all as meaningless and in the end as much a waste of time as banning assault rifles, clips/mazaines of more than 11 rounds.  

We are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for car alarms, home security systems, bike locks, door locks,  employing  guards, putting in metal dectors, moving to gated communities etc. etc. etc.  and it doesn't mean anything . . . no matter what you do, if someone else wants it  . . .

. . . they'll get it.

Back in 1980 I bought a brand new blue 10 speed bike, a coveted one with name "Peugeot."  

I took great care of my bike.  Locking in a friends garage when during high school, then taking it in with me to work at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center (old campus).  When it came time to attend college/university and I had to leave my bike locked outside in the bike racks, I did something unheard of at the time.

I bought two locks.  A newly on the market Kryptonite Lock for the frame and a heavy duty cable, with strong key lock for the wheels (woven through the frame).  My theory was: "if they wanted my bike, they were at least going to work for it."

Bikes around mine were stolen, mine was not.  

Silly me though. I thought it was because I placed enough hurdles in front to make it less appealing . . . but I guess in reality it was because no one wanted my (highly sought after) bike.  Because as I am learning now, nothing, NOTHING,  I did prevented my bike from being stolen.

Why did I bother?  I could have saved myself a few hundred dollars.  And I'd have extra space in my garage some 30 years later.

. . . And if someone wants to hurt you . . .

And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won’t
-Mitt Romney
Thinkprogress
Why did I bother leaving my 1st husband 26 years ago, after his physical abuse and trying to kill me.   Why did I even waste my time going into hiding?  Or separating with my kids for a time, to keep them safer? Why did I bother with a restraining order, filing police reports, pressing charges (finally) . . . why did I bother doing all that?

I should have just let him pull me from the car and throw me into oncoming traffic, instead of fighting him.  I should have just followed countless other women into death, before laws were changed to recognize spousal abuse as a real crime.

because he really wanted to hurt/kill me, and there was nothing I could do to stop him . . . . . .

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    While a restraining order is only a piece of paper, it does offer recourse after violation that women did not have before.

    And come to think about it, using their their own formula; if someone really wants to hurt you - a  gun isn't going to stop them either.

    Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

    by Clytemnestra on Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 11:42:54 PM PDT

  •  Channeling Bette Midler: (6+ / 0-)

    After we watched that episode of Letterman's show, my mother told my sister to go to bed.  Her response?

    "I'll just have to get up in the morning, so why bother?"

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:21:20 AM PDT

  •  Let's turn it around for them- (9+ / 0-)

    Why bother with all those pesky anti-abortion laws, women that want them will get them anyways. Oh silly me, that won't work for lady parts laws.

    Oh for crying out loud!

    by 4mygirls on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:21:34 AM PDT

  •  Here's the disconnect. (4+ / 0-)

    We have something like 90 guns for every 100 people in the US.

    We're awash in firearm. Supply side gun control won't work because it's locking the barn door after the cows escaped. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:26:02 AM PDT

    •  how about round and clip control? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PSzymeczek

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:38:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper, theatre goon

        I'm not sure on high(er) capacity magazines but my guess would be they're more prevalent than firearms. I have over 20 magazines, just for one firearm. They are the stock magazine but they are 30 rounders. They are not tracked like firearms, there are no serial numbers, there is no registration. Same argument applies.

        As for round control: I reload my own ammo. Lots of people do. Reuse brass, melt down your own lead bullets, though I will admit the primer side of things would be more difficult.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:45:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  R'd and DON'T Believe the Hype (4+ / 0-)

    1. we have a domestic terrorism problem.

    2. for some reason(s), local, state and federal level law enfocement continues to pretend they are helpless; that there is just no way they can preempt these frequently occuring mass murders.

    3. They are wrong.

    4. we have at least a dozen agencies surveilling what is going on in our nation, day in and day out, including the so called Dept of Homeland Security.

    they are surveilling the wrong people.

    "The Joker" spent four months building his arsenal, with fifty packages delivered to his home and workplace. he ordered 6,000 rounds of ammo, a gas mask, and body armor, etc

    fair to assume he used his credit card for most if not all of these purchases.

    ALL of this is trackable, actionable.

    the notion it isn't is a very weak excuse, and is unacceptable

    "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Superpole on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:26:27 AM PDT

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Superpole

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:37:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's to argue I wonder? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Oh Mary Oh

        thanks.. not trying to b a dick. it's just that there's huge pushback from some here regarding what law enforcement can and cannot do.

        we're being heavily surveilled already, period. read the recent piece by Bamford in Wired Mag.

        credit card purchases ARE trackable.

        there's no credible reason Holmes was not stopped cold.

        "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

        by Superpole on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:50:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  NRA's Given Us an Opening With their Confiscation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, Oh Mary Oh

    stories.

    There's nothing they can say that's more extreme than Obama is taking away all your arms. And they can't spend any more money to defeat Democrats, they've already been going at it at top speed for 3 years. We're taking all the heat there is to take from fighting for gun control when we haven't been doing anything.

    Seems to me if there are some sensible reforms such as classifying certain weapons or accessories as military weaponry, making sure all purchases have background checks etc., seems to me we're free and clear to make the case.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:29:47 AM PDT

  •  I kind of agree with you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra, PSzymeczek

    The things you did was to protect you and your property - I don't think tougher laws against stealing bikes would have had the same effect.

    It's sad that you had to go underground - but you knew that was the best way to keep your children and you safe - again - laws can only do so much - with the exception on incarceration, a stricter restraining order wouldn't make you any safer.

    WHile I think that there could be more reasonable regulations regarding firearms, I don't think another layer of laws is going to stop a criminal - there are hundreds of millions of non-registered firearms out there for the picking.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:32:16 AM PDT

  •  While it's true that (4+ / 0-)

    someone determined enough will do whatever they want, it's also true that placing obstacles in their path will deter the less determined and possibly hamper or slow down the more determined.

    Some people view all those security measures as challenges and their goal is to beat the system.  If they are determined and skilled enough, it really is close to impossible to stop them.

    Some people are crazy (for a variety of reasons) and you can't predict what they are going to do.

    We take what reasonable precautions we can because it does deter the less determined.

    And then we deal with the aftermath of the intensely determined and/or the crazies.

    Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. My grandfather always told me that, and it's worked for me so far.

    All knowledge is worth having. Check out OctopodiCon for steampunk learning and fun.

    by Noddy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:33:20 AM PDT

  •  Magazine capacity by itself is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, Robobagpiper, theatre goon

    almost irrelevant. The fastest sustained firing gun I have holds only 10 rounds in its fixed magazine, but I can reload it with stripper clips in about 2 seconds. 500 rounds carried in those weigh about 19 lbs.

    The other gun, which can only be loaded with magazines, would be out of action once the magazines were emptied unless I had a whole team reloading them while I fired. 500 rounds in 40-rd magazines would weigh about 40 lbs and they also take a couple of seconds to change.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:41:45 AM PDT

    •  no it's not. The gunman who fired at Gabby (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh, allergywoman, PSzymeczek

      Giffords was tackled finally when he had to reload his 33 round clip .  I actually think that fact was why the Aurora shooter chose a 100 round drum

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:50:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was going to add (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, PSzymeczek

        that it's relevant if you only plan to use one magazine but settled for just putting in the one word "almost".

        Then there is the reliability issue with super-large magazines, as apparently tripped up the Aurora shooter judging by news accounts.

        Moderation in most things.

        by billmosby on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 07:58:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but you hedge your bets, by going to a larger clip (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allergywoman

          you are betting that you can get off more rounds than 11 before the gun jams

          Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

          by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:08:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a bet, all right. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clytemnestra, theatre goon

            My SKS only ever jammed when I tried to use aftermarket 30-rd mags in it. The built-in mag has never jammed it. And I can reload it in 2 sec. I had a friend who when he went shooting his SKS kept a few hundred rounds in stripper clips in a belly pack. That's where the 2 sec figure comes from, that's how long it took him.

            Yes, if you have a 30 or 40 round magazine, the probability is that if it's original equipment or at least a well-built aftermarket item, it will probably work just fine. Anything larger is apparently very likely to jam. I think that may be one reason you don't see any of those fancy large capacity magazines in general use in the military.

            The mass shooters seem to want to run through more than 30 or 40 rounds, though.

            But notwithstanding all that, my recommendation in another comment was to ban them anyway to cut down on mass shootings. Even 30 or 40 rounds can do a lot of damage.

            Moderation in most things.

            by billmosby on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:19:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I thought the gun jammed as the reason why (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra

        that guy got tackled?!!. Had it not, the person charging at him would have surely gotten shot.

    •  OK then (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh

      what would you change regarding the current legislation if anything?

      •  To really get a handle on mass shootings, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Oh Mary Oh, PSzymeczek

        ban anything that takes a detachable magazine, can be loaded using stripper clips, and has a magazine capacity more than like 3 rounds or so. Hunting requires some repeat fire capability, I don't know exactly how much.

        And ban anything else that might be conjured up to provide a sustained rapid firing rate (more than one round every 5 seconds or so on average).  

        Then do a buyback with sufficient penalties and incentives to thoroughly implement the ban.

        Moderation in most things.

        by billmosby on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:02:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Back in the era of the waiting period, there (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra, theatre goon

        were no background checks on long guns - just pistols. I think that's still the case.

        If so, extending the NICS check to all firearm purchases from FFLs, possibly continuing to exclude black powder and antiques,  might catch some prohibited users going for the rare "assault weapon" kill.

        Expanding the NICS check and requirement to keep a record of transfer for X number of years, to private sales, with the proper safeguards against misuse (by both governments and nosy individuals), might also reduce the transfer rate of firearms from law-abiding to criminal hands, and increase the ability to trace straw-purchasers.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:22:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Changing the law. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra, PSzymeczek

        How about changing the Assault weapon ban to a ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons, not based upon the "styling" but upon their function.  Manual cycling of the breech to clear and chamber a new round would add a significant delay.

        In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

        by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:24:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you going to grandfather the hundred (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, KVoimakas

          million or so semi-autoss already in private hands, or are you going to seize them?

          Can you imagine how seizure of weapons will turn out?

          Full autos are already regulated to near-ban status, BTW, and are vastly more rare in crime than even "assault weapons" are.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 09:57:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There are indeed certain types of event that (5+ / 0-)

    can not be predicted, nor prevented, without absolutely draconian measures that cause more harm than good. Trying to put obstacles in the way of a potential spree killer who has no mental health or criminal record is one of these; moreover, it's an attempt to control an extremely rare event. Based on the last decade, there is about 1 spree killing for every 170 million people per year. If you can think of a better example of "freak event", I'd like to hear it.

    Similarly, the focus on "assault weapons" and magazine size is equally misplaced. Until fairly recently (as older guns were retired), the principle gun used in a homicide was a revolver, not a high-capacity semi-auto, despite decades of dominance of the latter in the pistol market. Additionally, you are 40x as likely to be murdered with someone's bare hands or a blunt object as an "assault rifle" - meaning that while the potential for great carnage is imaginably there, in reality, the actual threat is tiny - especially considering that there are about 10 million "assault weapons" in private hands overwhelmingly not killing anybody.

    What we can do is address chronic violence. Gun control discussions often cause liberals (just for the course of the discussion) to transform from philanthropes to misanthropes. As soon as guns are discussed, the model of human behavior transforms into one where people - or, at least, Americans - are raging bundles of crazy violence just waiting for a bad day or someone to cut them off in traffic to lose their shit and start killing.

    But that's not really true. The overwhelming number of people convicted of murder have a long escalating history of convictions of prior violent crimes before they graduate to murder. Moreover, their rap sheets are distinct from those not likely to escalate beyond lower-level crimes. We can refocus our criminal justice system, especially sentencing laws for repeat offenders and our parole system, to keep the guy on his nth aggravated assault offense in until he's reached middle age and unlikely to offend again, and let the burglar out sooner and not lock up the drug user at all.

    At the same time, there are strong links between poverty and homicide rates, between environmental toxin exposure and violent crime rates (normal impulse control development is inhibited by infant exposure to lead, for example). We can do all of these things.

    If we're going to prohibit something, especially something explicitly protected by the Constitution, we need to make sure it's at least going to be more effective than other remedies.

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:17:09 AM PDT

    •  Can you put this into a diary so we (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Robobagpiper, theatre goon

      can just reference the diary? Make it an official one. :-D

      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

      by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:21:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "freak event" - this shooting was my 3rd vigil (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allergywoman, PSzymeczek

      for family and friends who may have been hurt by a "freak event."

      And really there are people in the Denver Metro Area  who could have been on a 3rd vigil of a mass shooter

      Columbine
      New Destiny Christian Center, Aurora
      Aurora Theater

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:35:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the time period for that is....? nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper, theatre goon

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:40:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the size of the metropolitan area involved (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas, theatre goon, PSzymeczek

          2.5 million people, period of 13 years.

          It does look like the greater Denver area has been unlucky enough to have been the site of a statistical cluster.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:49:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Time scale for one city (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clytemnestra

          13 years, instead of being flippant you could have

          a. looked it up,

          b. Recognised that the effect of these events went far beyond the individuals who were murdered and maimed by sane individuals with legally owned weapons.

          Rather than coldly and to be quite honest, in my opinion, insultingly, dismissing as irrelevant the pain and suffering that loss of loved ones has caused.

          In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

          by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:55:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've lost family members to what some consider (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Robobagpiper, theatre goon

            'gun violence' and I don't blame the firearm or the lack of strict gun control laws.

            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

            by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 09:01:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am truly sorry for your loss. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PSzymeczek

              But,  I will not "walk by" your dismissive comment.  as you might have guessed, I live in the UK. where firearms legislation is so tight it would make your eyes water.  

              I did not 'blame the firearm' as you put it, a gun is nothing more than a lump of steel , aluminium and plastic.  I blame the person who used it and the enablers who stand fore-square against any and all regulation of firearm ownership.

              With only a tiny amount of luck I will never have to suffer your loss, to the whim of a 'sane' person with a gun.

              Personally speaking I think I prefer the laws of my country to the 'Rights' of yours.

              In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

              by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 09:34:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who are these people who are against any (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon

                and all regulation?

                Not any that I can think of on DK. Hell, even the NRA supports some gun control.

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:29:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The NRA used to support (0+ / 0-)

                  commonsense regulation of gun/ammo ownership.  Not so much the past 25 - 30 years.

                  The way to combat noxious ideas is with other ideas. The way to combat falsehoods is with truth. - William O. Douglas

                  by PSzymeczek on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:49:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Any and all? (0+ / 0-)

                  OK I'll bite,  tell me of one piece of gun-specific regulation you would accept?  Here are a few for starters.

                  A ban on the ownership of semi-automatic weapons, including handguns?

                  A ban on the private sale of all firearms?

                  Mandatory insurance for each firearm owned?

                  Mandatory registration of all firearms, in the same manner as vehicle ownership?

                  Re-classification of semi-automatic weapons as military grade? i.e. not for private ownership, like rocket launchers, grenade launchers?

                  Or would you prefer that one day a Supreme court decides to re-interpret the second amendment to, again, include the well trained militia part as a requirement to unfettered gun ownership.

                  Perhaps you would prefer to hoist that hoary old cannard, 'It won't stop guns getting into the hands of criminals'.  Or maybe you prefer, 'There are too many guns, magazines, bullets in circulation to have any effect'.  Maybe this one fits better, 'nobody will vote for a democrat that supports gun control'.  Arguments I have seen used in many diaries similar to this.

                  In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

                  by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 12:14:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I will give you one I've put forth before. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon

                    Expanding NICS and making it effective. This includes 100% reporting from each state.

                    For your's though, here are your answers in order.

                    no
                    no
                    maybe, if you mean just like vehicles (private property, no registration)
                    no, because they aren't military grade.
                    You say again like it ever was. It wasn't.

                    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                    by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 12:25:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So that means.. (0+ / 0-)

                      ???

                      NICS rendered impotent through private sales!
                      I looked it up,  National Instant Criminal Background Check System...  "Sorry officer I don't have internet, He looked legit. to me, My friend Joe said he was all right. NICS isn't that a show on FOX"

                      Not even prevention of firearms falling into the hands of criminals or the mentally disturbed through private sales.

                      and by registration, I mean like the U.K.

                      All vehicles are registered to the owner through the DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licencing Authority) upon purchase. Sale or disposal of the vehicle MUST be reported. For vehicles over 3 years a valid MOT certificate (Road-worthiness) is required along with  Insurance and a valid Vehicle Excise certificate.  Notification, if the vehicle is stored off-road, is mandatory each year.

                      The constitution didn't stop your Supreme Court riding rough-shod over decades of precedent and State law regarding campaign finance when it suited their purpose.  What makes you think it would be any different with the 2nd amendment.  Obama doesn't want to take away your guns but the 1% who own 5/9ths of the Supreme Court might.

                      And with that I think I will leave it there.

                      I wish you and yours peace and a long life.

                      In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

                      by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 01:09:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  responses. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon

                        NICS: you know what happens if you try to buy a firearm through a dealer and it's a NO response? Nothing. No one comes to arrest you, fine you, anything. By making NICS more effective (with the appropriate penalties), you would cut down on a lot of people attempting to buy firearms, failing, and then just going elsewhere.

                        Private sale restrictions aren't going to work because of the VAST amount of privately owned, non registered, UNTRACEABLE firearms already in circulation.

                        I do not support that form of registration.

                        It's not my SCOTUS. Fuck Citizens United and Scalia.

                        I know President Obama doesn't want to take our firearms. He's not a stupid man. Hell, I've even written diaries about this.

                        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                        by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 01:34:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sorry. (0+ / 0-)

                          If I caused offence it wasn't meant. I wasn't going to respond, but I feel that I struck a nerve.

                           With respect to the Supreme Court of the United States of America,  I referred to it as 'your' court because I assumed that you are a citizen of the U.S.A., and that SCOTUS is the final arbiter of ALL laws and the constitution of your country.  Whether you like it or not, you and the other 300 million members of your country are subject to the law as interpreted by this court.

                          Without registration and regulation of private sales NICS isn't worth the mass of one electron even with penalties, let alone the breath of the laugh expelled at it's mention.  The NRA almost certainly supported it because it provides the illusion of doing something whilst achieving nothing.  Just as intended.

                          Moving on to firearm registration.  I won't insult you with the if you're innocent argument, it's pathetic  because it is obvious, the answer is you lose some of your privacy and autonomy, just like with a car licence or with the census.  That being a given, ask yourself, what other objection do you have, please do not insult yourself with the 'non-registered, untraceable' "it's too hard" argument, it is at best the apologists response, what if the civil rights movement had used that, or womens' sufferage or the Union that stood up against slave ownership.  If you don't have a better answer then perhaps there isn't one.

                          It has been interesting, and I know I will not sway you.  If you haven't already, I hope you have the chance to visit the U.K. we really are quite friendly.

                          In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

                          by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 02:56:15 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Gotcha. (0+ / 0-)
                            With respect to the Supreme Court of the United States of America,  I referred to it as 'your' court because I assumed that you are a citizen of the U.S.A., and that SCOTUS is the final arbiter of ALL laws and the constitution of your country.  Whether you like it or not, you and the other 300 million members of your country are subject to the law as interpreted by this court.
                            That's not how I've seen people mean it lately.

                            I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. It might be that after three-four days of this, all of it's running together.

                            It's not that it's too hard (though it would be very difficult). It's that it wouldn't work. You'd have millions of people not registering/turning in their firearms because of confiscation fear. History (US history) actually proves this out to some extent (SKS in Cali, for one).

                            Other people have issues with the NICS for private sales suggestion. I, for one, do not want just anyone calling up a number and saying "hey, can this guy own a firearm?" and getting a response back. What's to keep people from using it as a cheap background check for other uses?

                            I'm not a big fan of travel but if I did, UK would be hit either on the way to Finland or back from it. I'd like to see Hereford too.

                            I do like your sig too btw.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 03:10:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hereford, pah.. :) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            I think on this issue we stand on opposite sides, we both believe passionately in our respective positions and I hope we can defend them with honour and respect.  We will almost certainly bash heads again, and come away with headaches, and possibly new questions.

                            Hereford is Beautiful, but Shropshire where I live has Heritage, History, and Beauty and is considered to be the birthplace of the industrial revolution.

                            WRT the Sig. thanks.  Yours is interesting, I might have gone with Corporations or the 1%.

                            In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

                            by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 04:28:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  I have also lost family members to gun violence (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas

              as in taking 2 to the chest

              but it wasn't from an assault weapon.. it was from an everyday rifle, which I do not advocate banning

              I have a hunter's safety certificate in Colorado and have held hunting licenses for deer and elk.  I earned a marksmanship ribbon in JROTC the first time I was at their firing range.  And learned the "hard way" about tucking into the stock of my Dad's 30.06.

              Hunting was a way to put food on the table under teacher's salary and it is what has augmented my parents retirement income.

              We also carried on in the Colorado high country in case of bears.

              Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

              by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:24:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Aurora Church: April 2012 = so 4 months (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allergywoman, PSzymeczek

          but this should be considered normal .. everyone should just expect to sit multiple vigils now?

          Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

          by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:56:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The sad thing about small probability random (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas, theatre goon

            events is that they're actually more likely to cluster than be evenly distributed, even when there's no other correlation.

            So no, it's not "everyone". Your area just got unlucky.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:59:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think that we are not paying attention to the (0+ / 0-)

              smaller body counts because it's taking the larger one and the more unusual ones to get our attention.  We have been desensitized to them.

              Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

              by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:10:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Apparently. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Clytemnestra, PSzymeczek

            God forbid you try to stop something like this from happening. Somehow that's trampling on freedom. Just like requiring safety belt use and motorcycle helmets are. People should be free to die in mass shootings, car accidents, and motorcycle accidents!

      •  Yes, 1 in 170 million a year is a freak event. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, theatre goon

        The associated fatality rate is about 1 in 18 million per year.

        Compare this to other preventable risk factors that do not elicit similar emotional responses or demands for draconian policy response.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:46:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  where are you getting your stats? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allergywoman, PSzymeczek

          Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

          by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 08:58:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For numbers of spree killings, and fatality total (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon

            per decade, I'm relying on those cited by JesseCW, who's on your side of the debate here, in various recent comments on DKos. I'm just dividing them by the US population to get rough probabilities.

            Because the numbers and fatalities from "mass killings" and "spree killings" vary (but not by large amounts) depending on definition and list, it's hard to get consistent ones - only ballparks. But web searches on the subject do produce lists and body counts which, while not comprehensive, are suggestive, and are consistent with my numbers.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 09:10:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Here's a good graphic from the Chicago Tribune (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas, billmosby, theatre goon

            That's where the "22 mass shootings in 13 years" comes from. The graphic indicates 216 fatalities in that 13 year period.

            Using these numbers, that's 1.7 events per year, with an average of 16.6 fatalities, in a country hovering around 300,000,000 people in the same period.

            That gives 1 incident per 177 million people per year, and 1 fatality per 18 million people per year.

            Linky

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 09:19:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Comparison (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Clytemnestra

              The UK, ten years, from 2001.  Mass killings involving 8 or more victims.
               1 event, 12 people were murdered, the perpetrator committed suicide. In 2010.  Population approx 60 million

              This single event prompted a Government review of firearms legislation with the aim of preventing similar tragedies.

              You can't always stop a bad thing happening, but you can at least try to prevent it

              In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

              by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:02:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, basically, you've just proven that the UK (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon

                parliament has its priorities seriously messed up - because it did not commit equivalent resources to addressing any number of hazards many times as great.

                Firstly, the different threshold (8 vs 5) itself significantly changes the number of incidents. Secondly, small number statistics, as I said - cluster - at 1/5th the US population, the fluctuations of the number of rare incidents per capita will be greater. Thirdly, even taking those two into account, you're still about half our rate per capita. Come back in 10-20 years to see if that changed at all.

                The fact is, freak spree and mass killings occur, roughly in proportion to population, in countries with high rates of legal gun ownership and low. Focusing on them is a waste of resources that could be directed to reducing chronic violence.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:12:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The UK Gov.t Priorities. (0+ / 0-)

                  Whilst I disagree fundamentally, with many of the policies of the current UK government, which I did not vote for.  I will not fault it for looking for ways of preventing needless loss of life by controlling access to something that's sole real purpose is destruction of life.

                  Dealing with priorities,legislation was passed this week providing free flu vaccinations for all school age children. Breast cancer screening is free, paid sick-leave, paid holiday, mandated maximum hours of work, free flu vaccinations for the elderly.  Guaranteed cradle to grave free health-care, Paid maternity and paternity leave.  Just a tiny sample, I think the Priorities of this country speak for themselves.

                  Finally, Prior to 2010, Dunblane 1996, 16 children, resulted in the effective banning of hand guns, Hungerford, 1985, 16 adults slain, resulted in the banning of semi-automatic weapons. And Severe restrictions on ownership of other firearms,

                  A period exceeding a quarter of a century, 3 mass killings and the tragic deaths of 44 innocents.  Or alternatively one/two average massacres in the U.S.A in one year.

                  In all of the world's problems religion has never been the solution

                  by Tailgunner30uk on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:46:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  you're linky doesn't include the Aurora Church (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PSzymeczek

              shooting

              so what's to say it's not missing others?

              Actually prompted by your question I am writing to both the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence and , Johns Hopkins University Center for Gun Policy and Research to see if there is an accurate time lined list going back to 1950

              Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

              by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:18:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Probably because of how it was defined. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon, KVoimakas

                Seeing as the original data from the chart came from the Brady folks, it's not like they're going to be leaving off incidents to make guns look good.

                But let's say there are twice as many as this stat shows. Is 1 in  89 million people per year suddenly in the range of social ills that need anywhere near top legislative priority?

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:22:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  but they, or the paper left off incidents (0+ / 0-)

                  I just proved it.

                  If you really wanted to have debate on this you should show the number of incidents that took place while the Assault Weapons ban was in place versus how many incidents have taken place since it was lifted.

                  Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

                  by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:28:46 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The rates are about the same. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon, KVoimakas

                    Which should come as no surprise, as the AWB did very little to reduce the availability of magazines or weapons, considering that in the former case the market was quite flooded, and in the latter case, the ban only affected cosmetic features on new guns.

                    Furthermore, the incidents on the list of "mass killings" overwhelmingly involve pistols, and not "assault weapons".

                    And you proved nothing, except that the list of mass killings don't include incidents that weren't mass killings.

                    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                    by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:39:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  can't be, if as you said in another comment (0+ / 0-)

                      they are only including incidents where more than one person died .. what about those at one or less than one ... those incidents have an ongoing cost for the community/country

                      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

                      by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:44:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A "mass killing" is defined as 5 or more people (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon, KVoimakas

                        and is a rare, freak, occurrence.

                        The demographics of the perpetrator, and their criminal history, are consistently distinct from the far more common smaller incidents, which are dominated by repeat offender felons.

                        You want to talk about smaller incidents? Good. Go back and read the last half of my post at the top of the thread about addressing chronic violence.

                        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                        by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47:33 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  And if you're going to talk about overall (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon, KVoimakas

                        homicide rates, not just spree/mass killings, the number has has been dropping fast since plateauing in the late '70s, with a couple of bumps and plateaus along the way.

                        Our current homicide rates are the lowest they've been since the mid-1960s.

                        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                        by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:58:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  that number is dropping, agreed (0+ / 0-)

                          over all ... (saw that report too) but so have airline crashes . . . that doesn't mean we shouldn't regulate them

                          if you were to pull out deaths from mass shootings from the over all homicide rates would it show that  the stats are higher than they should be and are those rates going up

                          and what amount are homicide rates going down due to better medical care .. in the 60s we did not have paramedicine, especially in ambulances, a one example

                          Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

                          by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:30:44 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Really not true at all. (0+ / 0-)

                            The numbers plateaued from 1978-1990, with the peak in 1980, and began the precipitous decline in 1991 (three years before the AWB, in case you're wondering) so paramedicine plays no role in the decline.

                            Indeed, if it were merely a matter of more victims surviving, then it wouldn't be the case that all violent crime, across the board, has been dropping fast since 1991.

                            Total homicides are about 5.6 per 100,000 population, down from a high of 10.0 in 1980. Mass shootings are sufficiently rare that they have no significant impact on that number, subtracted out or not.

                            There are multiple hypotheses about the 1980s peak crime wave, and its decline thereafter. One is that this period saw new markets for drugs opening up, and sparked massive turf wars between the cartels, organized crime syndicates, and neighborhood-level gangs to control the money from that illicit trade. By 1990, the turf wars had settled out, and the fighting declined.

                            Another speaks to the fact that infant exposure to lead is a known cause for the poor development of impulse control - that psychological barrier that forces you to consider the consequences before acting on a momentary emotion. People who were exposed to lead as infants, when they become teenagers and into their early 20s, are vastly more likely to engage in risk-taking behavior. In males, the most notable consequence is violence. In female, it's teen pregnancy. The rates of household lead had been consistently rising through the 50s and 60s, especially in urban environments, from paint and gasoline. This means that kids born then would be at higher risk to exhibit violent tendencies 15 years later, especially in urban environments where the toxicity was highest. Lead was banned from most household products, and mostly removed from gasoline, by the mid-1970s - and so kids turning 16 in 1991 would be the first generation to have been exposed to less of this potent neurotoxin as infants.

                            None of the changes in homicide or violent crime track gun laws. They didn't drop faster in 1994 when the AWB was passed, nor did they tick up as states opened up concealed permit laws, or in 2004 when the AWB expired.

                            This speaks to a fundamental truth - normal people don't kill. Mentally disturbed people and organized criminals do. The mere presence of the means to kill will not suddenly turn a person into a killer.

                            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                            by Robobagpiper on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 04:20:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  And for the record, the AWB wasn't lifted. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon, KVoimakas, PSzymeczek

                    It expired. The law passed with a 10-year sunset provision.

                    Why? Ask yourself, if the people who passed it really thought it was going to make a difference, why was the law designed to expire?

                    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                    by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 11:10:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Ah, because the Aurora Church shooting involved (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon, KVoimakas

                one fatality, and was not a "mass killing"; the shooter was a repeat convicted violent felon with a history of drug-related mental instability, not one of these "come out of nowhere" freak shooters.

                The Aurora Church shooting was also stopped by an armed citizen (in this case, an off-duty cop), not making it the best example of an argument for limiting the law-abiding citizen's right to carry. The shooter, himself, already broke several laws by having a gun.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:36:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  mass SHOOTING (0+ / 0-)

                  I understand the semantics ,. which is why I'm trying to be very careful to say mass shooting and not mass killing ... because you massage the stats and  only include those with more than one death but ignore the physical and emotional injuries of all those who were in the room/area you will not get the true magnitude of the problem, including cost of physical and emotional rehab.

                  The cost of the dead is done once you put them in the ground and settle their accounts... the cost of those living is larger and on going

                  Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

                  by Clytemnestra on Thu Jul 26, 2012 at 10:42:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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