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Originally posted to Comics on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 06:50 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  can someone fill me in? (3+ / 0-)

    I know that students are graduating with a lot of debt, but how is this different than, say, the 1980s and 90s? I couldn't afford a lot of the art schools that I wanted to go to so I settled on Cal State that had a good program. I graduated with a loan of $14,000 which I paid off in a year or so.

    If I took the action that a lot of these kids are doing now, I would have gone to Art Center and racked up $150,000 in loans, albeit I would have had a better job probably. But I wouldn't be demanding that my loans be thrown off the books. I don't understand.

    •  Tuition cost have increased dramatically since 90s (19+ / 0-)

      I don't know the exact percentage, but tuition cost have vastly outpaced inflation over the last 20 years.  Roughly speaking, tuition costs have gone up by double-digit increases each year; whereas, inflation has only gone up by 2% - 3% each year.  To cover the rising cost of tuition,  students have borrowed more than in the past.  And, as you mentioned, good paying jobs really haven't been there for most graduates.

      •  Facts to back up what I was saying (7+ / 0-)

        From FinAid.org:

        Tuition Inflation

        A good rule of thumb is that tuition rates will increase at about twice the general inflation rate. During any 17-year period from 1958 to 2001, the average annual tuition inflation rate was between 6% and 9%, ranging from 1.2 times general inflation to 2.1 times general inflation. On average, tuition tends to increase about 8% per year. An 8% college inflation rate means that the cost of college doubles every nine years. For a baby born today, this means that college costs will be more than three times current rates when the child matriculates in college.

        So, I didn't have it quite right.  College tuition is not growing by double-digit percentages; however, it is growing at twice the rate of inflation.  Because of compounding, future generations will always have to pay more, in real dollars, unless that trend is reversed.  
        •  The Chronical of Higher Education lays it out: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pgm 01, Larsstephens

          If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

          by livjack on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:59:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  not to jump thread (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cyncynical, Larsstephens

          but I really want to know where all of this tuition money has gone. Because if you know any college professors, they will tell you that departments are being squeezed and sometimes cut altogether, and that professors' salaries are a joke. The professors I know certainly aren't seeing 8% increases in salaries. They are seeing shrinking health care benefits, higher premiums, bigger class loads, and the increasing use of adjuncts and grad students to fill teaching vacancies.

          However, I believe the new head basketball coach at the University of Kansas signed on to a $1 million dollar a year contract.

          Who (besides the aforementioned coach) is getting this 8%?

          "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

          by Reepicheep on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 12:07:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Administrators' salaries (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wu ming, Larsstephens, GreenMother

            and athletic departments.  How many college presidents or major sports coaches make less than $500K per year?

            The way to combat noxious ideas is with other ideas. The way to combat falsehoods is with truth. - William O. Douglas

            by PSzymeczek on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:33:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Where do "defense" dollars go? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wu ming, Larsstephens

            Where does the huge profits of "health care" companies go?

            Where did the missing trillions of Wall Street go

            There is an entire industry devoted to hiding the Owner's money away from the eyes of the little people.

            If the government were not owned by these same robber barrons, countries enabling tax criminals like Romney would be the ones fearing Reaper drones... but it is much more likely drones will be used against American citizens engaged in Occupy protests.

          •  state legislatures have cut their contributions (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Larsstephens, Caj

            health insurance costs have gone up for schools as much as any other part of the economy, executive compensation has skyrocketed, and a massive amount of money has been ploughed into new buildings, sports facilities, corporate-linked science joint research facilities, and other amenities, often with trustees or regents heavily invested in  the banks that finance them or the construction corporations that build them.

            the people side of the university is being starved, treated by admins as an unfortunate parasite on their money making project.

          •  health care and technology (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Larsstephens

            We've had it fairly good, as our salaries haven't gone down, but they certainly haven't been the reason for the rising tuition costs. Health care costs keep rising at a tremendous rate for faculty and administration, and there seems to be a technological arms race. Those are likely where your costs are coming from.

      •  college should be public and free like high school (10+ / 0-)

        In a technological world like ours, college is no longer a luxury for the elite---it is a necessity for everyone.

      •  In the post-WW2 years (4+ / 0-)

        There were many jobs in manufacturing that provided good paying jobs to those without post-secondary education.  In fact, many did not bother finishing high school to get those jobs.

        And during those good old days, only a tiny fraction of the population went to college or university.  It was much easier for the government to subsidize such education because there was much less demand for it.

        Today, everybody needs a post-secondary education to even have a modicum of a chance at a decent job.  And the greater availability of student loans has caused said education's cost to outstrip inflation.

        If student loan programs were cut, this would have the benefit of forcing universities to cut the cost of tuition.  But maybe not--demand for education is only going to go up from here on out.

    •  oh really? how's that art degree going for you (0+ / 0-)

      and do you have any idea how poorly it goes for most students relative to how much they have to spend?

      loans for art majors should be capped; the market just doesn't want to pay them what it costs to teach them, apparently.

      •  hey I wasn't trying to troll (5+ / 0-)

        seriously wanted to know what has changed in the last 20 years. I think it's atrocious that college costs for kids these days are so out of reach. I do have to say thought that I've seen articles where they've interviewed students that admit they took out hundreds of thousands in loans and weren't prepared for the consequences.

        And thanks for asking, the art degree's going ok...been an art director now for 24 years.

        •  I didn't think you were trying to troll (0+ / 0-)

          just wondered how in-touch you were.

          FWIW, assuming by "art director" you mean you're a graphic artist of some type now, the degrees are literally in "graphic arts" or something, which imo is a technical skill that is far more practical than a "drawing" major.

        •  I graduated from UChicago 20 years ago... (0+ / 0-)

          ....and tuition has tripled since then.

          One quarter of full-time tuition (3 or 4 courses) is roughly equivalent to three quarters in the early 90s - about $14,000.

          However, the 1% subsidizes the tuition of others; Chicago has a program called the Odyssey Scholarships that eliminates loans for students from slightly below-median income and below.  

          I would have qualified for them had they been around - and I graduated in 1992 with a bit under $5000 in debt.  I worked during the summer at low-paying jobs, and worked 10-12 hours a week during the school year - that paid for food and entertainment.

          I lived fairly cheaply; I lived in a fraternity house that charged $600 a quarter, plus a $60 events fee, and learned how to scrounge free food from clubs and events and took advantage of free or cheap entertainment on campus.

          9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

          by varro on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 12:30:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Not nice GoGoGo (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        420 forever, filby, pgm 01

        People should not be discriminated against for the type of profession they choose. The Arts are just as important as the Sciences and this is coming from a person who draws like a preschooler.

        When the operation of the machine becomes so odious that you can't take part,you've got to put your bodies upon the gears;you got to make it stop.Indicate to the people who run it that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all

        by YoungArizonaLiberal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:39:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Unless we're going to centrally-plan employment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PSzymeczek

          we have to take into account how likely it is that the recipient of the subsidy will be able to make that back, and hopefully more in tax revenue as well. I love art, but you cannot claim that it is not a pleasure for most who participate in it, thus encouraging likely too many to study it vs something that they will be paid better for.

      •  the job market is crap for everybody (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        worst major right now is probably architecture, to be honest.  

      •  GoGoGoEverton--keep on going--right out the door (0+ / 0-)

        IT IS NOT FOR YOU...

        To determine the dreams and aspirations of any given student, whether it be Art, Medicine, Journalism or Business.

        You are not authorized to make such determinations and I am so very thankful for that.

        I don't care if you don't like art, if you don't get it, if you *think it's all bunk and frivolous.

        I simply do not care.

        As an Artist--You offended me just now with your horrid attitude toward artists and art.

        I would be equally offended if you attacked the Humanities or History as well.

        The importance of these disciplines doesn't disappear, simply because you lack the vision to see it.

    •  I am a student at the University of Arizona (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loggersbrat, Kinak, mrbeen38, Larsstephens

      I graduated 2nd in my class in high school and smashed the SATs therefore my college tuition is paid for by scholarships and grants. (No African American Scholarships BOOO! According to Republicans I should have had everything paid for just for declaring my skin color) My friends on the other hand...

      I have one friend who is taking the Community College route, then transfering. She has student loans but they are less than ~$5000. She also gets to work to pay for her fees.
      I have another friend who is an out of state student. Her tuition per year is over ~20,000. But she had a small scholarship and works part time. She will graduate next year with about ~$65,000.
      My Best friend/Roommate is using Pell Grants and other low income funding opportunities like Arizona Assurance, scholarships from beating me as valedictorian :'(. She will graduate with no debt like me. If it wasn't for Gov't Grants, she would be in deep debt like the others, not due to tuition but living expenses.

      When I entered U of A, tuition was about 3800 a semester if you are a full time student, now it is ~6000.
      When My parents went to U of A in the late 80s, early 90s as part time international students they were paying what I would be now if I didn't have the scholarship $$$ as an in state US Citizen and then it was considered "expensive"

      Just an anecdote for ya! :-)

      When the operation of the machine becomes so odious that you can't take part,you've got to put your bodies upon the gears;you got to make it stop.Indicate to the people who run it that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:30:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe you are wrong (6+ / 0-)

      When I got out of the Navy and started in JC in 1972 I paid $176 per semester for full time tuition. The kicker was that the number of credit hours I was allowed to take once I had reached the full-time threshold of 12 credit hours was limitless. So my hours varied from 12 to 16. My ex-wife, on the other hand took 23 credit hours in one semester. My nieces and nephews, attending the same JC, spend $1700 per semester and are limited to 15 or 16 credit hours per semester and have to pay for more. Comparing what you had to do "back in the day" with what kids have to do today is comparing apples and oranges.  They, in effect, pay 10 times the amount I paid. If minimum wage had kept pace with the cost of college, it would be at $20.00 per hour now.

      Mitt Romney: the "Bain" of our existence.

      by nomorerepukes on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:32:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  there were jobs then (5+ / 0-)

      Students could get good-paying jobs and pay off their debt.

      Now they can't.  Unless they get a job in China.

    •  how it's different (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PSzymeczek, Larsstephens

      1) tuition rates have skyrocketed because student loans have been easy to get

      2)  three words: for profit schools.    that art school you talked about could have cost you many, many times what you paid.   orders of magnitude more than what you paid.

      some of these places are being sued by the doj and several states because of admissions fraud.  the game is to admit  people who should not be in the program,  take their student loan money, and then graduate them with a  worthless degree.  i am aware of one doctoral program where someone was admitted with only a ged. that program  wasn't  even accredited.  they were successfully sued. and, the graduation rates are abysmal in some of the programs.   they have also been taking tuition money from veterans' programs, and playing the same damn game with VETS!

      my son  was in a doctoral program in one these schools.  he already had three degrees from well respected brick and mortar schools , including a terminal masters in his field.  he entered one of these for profit colleges, and even though he had straight a's and no complaints against him, they expelled him.  they trumped up some phony charges, and went with that.    he was one year  from graduation.

      he has written to the u.s.  attorney general, the ag of the state where this "college" is located, and has visited with harkin's office personally.

      now he seeking legal advice from a private attorney.

      i am not going to go into  detail here about the way they abused my son.  this happened exactly 12 months ago.  he was barely been able to get out of bed for the better part of six months.  he is starting to improve, but is has been a miserable year.  and quite frankly, he has very little hope for any sort of a bright future.  

      i am madder than hell.  madder than hell.

    •  what do you think all those protests (7+ / 0-)

      on California college campuses have been about in the last couple years?

      Views Differ On Shape Of Planet

      by nota bene on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:38:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tuition costs have risen by a factor of 30 (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pgm 01, PSzymeczek, George Hier, atana, wu ming

      First year I went to SF State, as a Calif. resident tuition was $330 per year. Today it's about that much per credit hour.

      Tuition costs have risen faster than that for healthcare, and both have far outpaced inflation.

      At the same time, state and federal allocations for school support and tuition assistance are down. Students have had to pick that slack up, too.

      Another way to look at it is that if you went to school say, 20 years ago, it was basically free. Today, a freshman can expect to graduate with between $25,000 and $125,000 in non-dischargeable debt.

      Every day's another chance to stick it to the man. - dls

      by The Raven on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:57:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  LOVE this cartoon! (18+ / 0-)

    i was out at a fancy lake resort this past month, listening to friends scream about the tee-ball generation where everyone gets a trophy!  
    omg...and all of them are dripping w/ money that has been transferred to them by borrowing from the very same youth who they are mocking!!!!  
    i am going to die from irony-overload, i swear...

    "kiss my ass. don't you know this is a holy site?"

    by stagemom on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:05:51 AM PDT

    •  should you make the table a trophy with (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKDAWUSS, PSzymeczek

      "paid for by borrowing from future generations?"
      not necessary, but just thought i'd mention.
      xo, ma

      "kiss my ass. don't you know this is a holy site?"

      by stagemom on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:08:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well I inherited zero zip zilch and I hate (4+ / 0-)

      the trophy for showing up bullshit.

      My little league team won the city tournament when I was 10. We got a tiny little trophy and no one else got anything.

      My parents were lower middle class, a nurse and building maintenance. I worked in HS even with playing 3 sports. Paid for my own car, paid for a large part of my college working at a taco joint.

      Was working when I got my MBA, worked all through my PhD program as a relief pharmacists.

      Nobody gave me a trophy for any of that. I earned it, with the help of a lot of people who also didn't get trophies.

      When my kids were in sports, we took the nameplate off of the trophies and donated them to the Special Olympics in town. The only ones that were allowed to be kept were if the team had won a championship.

      No trophy for turning ATP into ADP.

      Now I see these kids in my classes, and there is a cohort that expects to get an an A for turning ATP into ADP.

      I'm all for letting kids earn some self-esteem, but this crap of having a joygasm because they sort of try, that's bullshit.

      This clip, while a slight exaggeration, is pretty spot on for many kids.

      WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

      by IARXPHD on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:25:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  give 'em self-esteem b/c they aren't getting any $ (5+ / 0-)

        you couldn't begin to pay back the loan amounts that these kids will have to pay back, even if you worked hard.
        and they can't find jobs with benefits, b/c there are none.  and so we riddle them with their debt AND OUR DEBT and then yell at THEM for being entitled?
        that's the point of the cartoon.  who's entitled?  the kids with the trophy for trying or their parents and grandparents who got tons of govt help, either directly or indirectly?

        why scream at the kids?  it's their freakin' parents who raised them...

        "kiss my ass. don't you know this is a holy site?"

        by stagemom on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:06:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  More intended towards their parents. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PSzymeczek

          And if anyone is interested.

          StepD= BS, manages Restaraunt
          Son 1= Senior in College, Comp Sci major, job waiting
          Son 2= Starting Soph year at CC, Accounting major

          So mine haven't been scarred by not having a bunch of phony trophies.

          WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

          by IARXPHD on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:48:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you're missing the point (4+ / 0-)

            No one cares about the phony trophy. The issue here isn't whether kids should be given phony trophies.

            The issue is this idea that being given a phony trophy for a meaningless youth sporting event is the same thing as being given everything on a silver platter.

            It's not.

            A phony trophy is not an affordable education. A phony trophy is not a thriving manufacturing sector that doesn't require employees to first buy expensive degrees.

            Saying kids today are privileged because they get meaningless trophies is the equivalent of saying someone living in poverty is privileged because they qualified for food stamps.

            •  It sets them up for epic failure. (0+ / 0-)

              I see one of our biggest problems in society being the inability to deny ourselves and our children things that we can't afford. And it starts out with the trophy stuff- it's not a meaningless gesture, its a symptom of a lifestyle.

              You take a 6 year old, and give him/her a trophy half their size for just showing up and breathing, and it's no bigger than the champions trophy, and it sets a tone that no matter what they do, they will be given things.

              Then it goes into school, with helicopter parents who don't want to see their precious' feelings hurt when the teacher gives them the grade they deserve. So with enough parent grief eventually you get credit for just turning in your homework, no real grading.

              Then in middle school, the parental showering of phones and electronic gizmos..what DO CHORES, are you kidding me. Mow lawns or rake leaves to save up for those things, NAHHH, mom and dad will give them to me if I whine enough.

              High school escalates it to a new/almost new car, and all the expenses that go with it.

              So 18yrs of being given almost everything, and mom and dad are tapped out, not saving a dime for college. So they take out student loans to pay for college.

              I'm sorry, I've seen it so often in my childrens friends, and in friends who have children. The buck finally stops when college is over, and everybody wonders what happened.

              I don't blame the kids, it's normal to let yourself be spoiled if its offered. It's the cult of the extra special child, the delicate genius.

              Hear a different religious belief at school, whisk the kid to the private religious academy or to home schooling.

              Tough teacher/coach, whine to administration how their child's self esteem is being destroyed.

              The lease bit of teasing, run to to school administration.  

              Always someone covering them up, never having to stand for themselves OR getting so used to getting your way from whining, that you expect that in college.

              In terms of the load burden, what's wrong with 2 years at the local juco living at home? Or looking into what majors might fit a kids interests and can hope to provide a living wage. And maybe not get 3 new pairs of shoes and 12 dresses every year of school. Maybe even leave the car at home and walk to school. All the god damn marketing about what it takes to be 'cool', and the huge price we pay for it.

              I would have loved to major in punk rock and beer (83 college grad), but you know what, no job doing that, so I sucked it up and did something that was a job, not my life's calling.

              And I didn't buy a new car and a closet full of new clothes right out of school. I paid down my debt by actually by being radical and going to the grocery store instead of fast food.

              WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!

              by IARXPHD on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:58:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and back in the 50's, "coddling" was blamed (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wu ming, taffers

                for boys "turning gay."

                This "kids these days are coddled too much" argument is as old as discussions about kids. It's a convenient excuse for actual structural problems with our economy, but the reality is that there have always been spoiled kids and the problems we're discussing are far more pervasive than the minority of privileged suburbanites that you're talking about.

                While what you're describing may be true of a few instances, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the problems faced by most of today's young adults. Not every parent can't save for college because they spent it all on clothes and cell phones. Not every young adult graduating into the Bush recession had a "helicopter parent"... in fact, increasing numbers of them have parents too busy to be involved with their education at all, but as a teacher, you noticed that vocal minority and generalized.

                Finally, it's simply a fact that many of the kids graduating into the Bush recession weren't part of the so-called "trophy generation" and didn't have a cell phone until college. They're facing the same problems.

                The kids aren't the problems, in any sense.

              •  to put that more succinctly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GreenMother

                if all the spoiled kids today who will go on to fail their way to an overpriced political science degree (and believe me, I've taught them at the university level, I know what you're talking) magically decided to work hard and pursue a degree in biomedical engineering... it wouldn't lower the cost of an education, it wouldn't increase the number of scholarships available for those whose parents can't afford it, it wouldn't make a college degree any less of a prerequisite for all those jobs that require them without really needing to require them, it wouldn't revive the manufacturing sector, it wouldn't create more jobs, it wouldn't solve any of the fundamental problems with our economy...

                The only thing it would do is ensure that a lot more biomedical engineers are working at Starbucks to pay off their expensive degrees.

                Are some parents awful? Yes. That's always been the case. I know people in their 60's who have mooched off overindulgent parents since the 1950's... that's not the real problem.

                And for 95% of the kids out there who get a phony trophy and then go home to a single working parent who barely has time to talk to them... that trophy doesn't prompt some grand psychological shift... it prompts a shrug of indifference.

            •  Bait and Switch! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril

              A phoney trophy in exchange for a life with no job security and no access to higher edu.

    •  The One Percenters and Their Groupies... (0+ / 0-)

      are plentiful, and they make the convenient no think pronouncements. Those who had it handed to them seem completely clueless. Though I have some reservations about overindulgent parenthood, that concern pales beside the very real burden too, too many college students are  forced to assume because  their parents can't afford to pay. Romney's nonsense about how students should lower expectations and drop down to a lesser college are disgusting when placed alongside his highly advantaged past and what those alumni networks bought him. Easier to vilify than expend any brainpower to understand.

      A nit to pick with the cartoon though. Wine is an everyday drink, and you don't have to be in the one percent to enjoy it. Lotsa good stuff out there for less than ten a bottle. Most boorish one percenters I have met drink mixed drinks considering wine to be too European and therefore socialist and all that other bilge the right wing incubates.

    •  Ironic isn't it? (0+ / 0-)

      Some of these folks pretend they are from the WWII generation, when really they are from the Korean/Vietnam generation.

      They didn't have to sacrifice the way their parents did to win a world war.

      They sure know how to wave a flag around, but that's about it.

  •  I guess the people who skipped out on college (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, happymisanthropy

    can take some level of comfort in knowing that they're not crown-deep in debt.

    Though that level of comfort is very small, if at all...

    •  Depends on what they're up to I guess. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKDAWUSS, happymisanthropy

      If they're doing well in a trade then I bet they're loving life right now.

    •  I won't have any debt at least for my undergrad (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CayceP, PSzymeczek

      Medical School on the other hand...I'll be lucky to keep the amount that I owe under $100,000!

      When the operation of the machine becomes so odious that you can't take part,you've got to put your bodies upon the gears;you got to make it stop.Indicate to the people who run it that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:32:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I take no comfort from it at all. (0+ / 0-)

      I really wanted to be in school. I am good at it. I love it. I dive into it.

      Being surrounded by students who are there as a means to an end, who don't love it, who don't care sucks.

      It says a lot about how we have dumbed down college and turned it into a wannabe third rate trade school [if that].

      We would be better off with real trade schools and certification for specialized jobs than forcing people who have no interest in Academia, to force them through a 4 year degree just so they can make just over 10 bucks an hour.

      I meet people all the time who attended college, but if they didn't tell me, I would never know it. They know next to nothing about anything academic. Their science skills are in the toilet, their grammar is worse than mine, they hate reading, and art, and history is just a big snore. They don't comprehend how our government works at even a basic level--and at that point I have to ask--"Did you really go to college? What did you learn? Other than how to roll a doobie?"

      With all the debt accrued out there, by students, and the graduates, our country should be collectively Smarter Than Ever! But it's not.

      That should be a major red flag. Romeny, Bush, Palin--they all went to college and look at them! Dumb as a bag of hammers! That should tell us something!

      Shoving people into a life that doesn't fit them is disastrous for us all. The quality of workmanship goes down precipitously. Morale drops with it, right into the abyss. We are not utilizing the talent of our people in this country because we have bought into a highly dysfunctional corporate model of management.

      The military fell for it in the 90s, and now here we are right behind them.

      It's not about fake trophies or bitching just about what super wealthy, aging slackers do.

      We can change this. We just have to want to change this more than we want to sit on our butts and bitch.  There are more of us, than there are of them. We do hold the advantage.

      They can't pepper spray us all.

  •  "We lived through a depression and a war." (11+ / 0-)

    We're living through a depression and two wars.

  •  wait till the CDO's start collapsing again (3+ / 0-)

    Most people don't realize that the banksters were securitizing student debt (and credit card debt) and selling them as CDO packages, just as they did with subprime mortgages.  We can only hope they have smartened up since 2008 and dumped those things.

    I'd not be even remotely surprised if, when the student debt mountain collapses into mass default, the banks are once again running to us with their palm up looking for another bailout.

  •  AWESOME! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brae70, northerntier, PSzymeczek

    Falling for the old right-wing divide and conquer scheme. Thought we were smarter than that. Young against old. Who'd have thought it. When you hear this kind of vitriol aimed at any group based on age, gender or race you expect it from the Republican side, not from ours. So sad.
    By the way, when older folk use the trophy reference it is usually symbolic, not literal.

    •  Satire (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother

      The divide already exists.  The cartoonist is merely pointing out how silly it is.  

    •  symbolic (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      enemy of the people

      ...just like in the cartoon?

      Medic Alert: Do not resuscitate under a Republican administration.

      by happymisanthropy on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:55:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i have heard older boomers going on like this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      George Hier, lotusmaglite

      over and over again, totally oblivious to how things have changed, or how seething those younger than them are about it. ostensibly liberal democratic boomers at that. "the kids today, why don't they ever move out and get a job?" "i worked my way through college, why don't they" etc.

      •  I almost never hear people of that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PSzymeczek, wu ming

        age group (mine) speaking this way. For the most part, most people know that given the job market, a lot of younger people are either returning home or going back home after college, because they can't find a job. I do admit that in a lot of areas, race-relations, etc. my peers are a great part of what's holding back progress, but you have to factor in other things as well, geography, etc.

      •  Oh, I have too (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        George Hier, wu ming

        My parents in particular seem oblivious to how things are now, and feel insulted when I attempt to describe living in the modern era to them.

        And they didn't even have to work their way through college . . . it wasn't really a requirement for them to have a pretty decent life.  Impossible today.

        •  my sibs and i have finally gotten through to ours (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens

          but it took nearly a decade for them to get how radically the basic contours of economic life had changed since they were young. them watching our tuition quadruple over the decade was helpful in that regard, i think there may be an internal generational disconnect between boomers and older x'ers who are paying their kids' tuition, and those whose kids are already out of school. the rate of increase in the past half decade has been breathtaking.

          i catch my parents' friends/friends' parents saying stuff like this all the time, though. every one a liberal democrat. if they were republicans, i wouldn't bat an eye, but it drives me nuts when it's folks on our side who speak these talking points without realizing where they came from.

          (to clarify, i'm not saying all boomers think or say this, i am saying that when i hear someone say this, they're invariably of a certain age, and usually comfortably well off)

      •  For every one saying stuff like that (0+ / 0-)

        I know twenty who are saying just the opposite. It's very odd if you don't hear them.

        We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

        by denise b on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 10:30:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Shoulda read yours before I posted mine.. (0+ / 0-)

      sigh.

  •  These threads always end up a cesspool (5+ / 0-)

    of victim blaming and ultimately show a nasty hatred of arts and humanities. Even when the diary features a cartoon.

    I don't blame young people. I blame the cult of the child their parents bought into unquestioningly.

    It gives a lovely light.

    by CayceP on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:47:25 AM PDT

    •  you're still blaming the victim (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      George Hier, wu ming, Larsstephens

      This has nothing to do with character flaws in young people resulting from some mythical "cult of the child."

      The "cult of the child" didn't outsource America's jobs, create the student loan industry or deregulate the financial industry.

      The fact of the matter is that children today have to work ten times harder in school to even have a shot at a tenth of the career opportunities, and it's not the children with heavily involved parents that are suffering. The upper middle class kids with the luxury stay-at-home parent who takes them to toddler classes and sits with them while they do their homework are doing just fine. Those are the kids who are able to keep up with the absurd demands and manage to get into schools on scholarships.

      The kids who are suffering are those with parents who work all day, parents who don't have the time or money to take them to extracurricular activities or pay for expensive SAT tutors... in other words, kids from families that are struggling too hard to give that much attention to their children.

      IMO, this whole "cult of the child" nonsense is nothing more than privileged white people projecting their trivial annoyances about their friends' rambunctious toddlers onto people who are dealing with much more serious problems.

    •  I don't even know what that means (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril

      Cult of the Child?

      I have noticed that whenever I raise my children in a manner that someone else doesn't approve of I am labeled a [fill-in-the-blank] Parent.

      And whatever goes in the blank is never good.

      So I ignore it.

      I let people live their own lives. I figure they know best how to deal with the unique situations that exist within their own homes and families.

  •  for-profit schools (5+ / 0-)

    interesting story on NPR this morning about how for-profit schools are getting so much money from tax-payers. Most of the money goes to profit/marketing rather than actual teaching. And over 50% of students in for-profit schools end up dropping out.

    Obama 2012...going to win it with our support!!!

    by mattinjersey on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:59:45 AM PDT

  •  The cost (6+ / 0-)

    The cost of a public college education is a disgrace in this country.  Especially considering the cost of a public college education in Europe is mostly zero.  

    The reason why the cost of a college education at a public college has grown so dramatically is because it's all tied to "don't tax the rich".  States don't have enough money to run their public colleges.  So they increase the rates.  And fees.   And the cost of permits and inspections.  

    It's all part of the Republican "Tax the poor" campaign.  That is the issue.  Not "let's tax the rich".  It should be "let's stop taxing the poor".  

    Let reframe the issue.  The cost of college education is the direct result of trickle down economic politics that have done nothing but put the tax burden on the poor.  

    Let's stop taxing the poor/middle/working class to fund the rich.  

    •  Because of the Student Loan Industry and how (8+ / 0-)

      they suck in so many Americans with their easy loans (hey, that kind of rings a bell...) Current college costs are the latest economic bubble.  

      Colleges can charge whatever they want now. They don't have to try to come up with financial aid, because they just advise the student to borrow it.  They get a nice, neat check twice a year, and there is absolutely no incentive to be competitive or fair with their pricing.  Kids are told that it is imperative they go to college.

      The greedmongers are diving facefirst into plundering any pot of money they can.

      The implosion will come, but none of the bankers will suffer.

      If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

      by livjack on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:18:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A thousand recommends (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IARXPHD, atana, GreenMother

        Access to student loans is also driving up the cost of education.

      •  It's not just any one thing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        It's a combination of bad (for the poor/working/middle class) economic policy, a greedy financial industry, and nostalgia for what a college education used to mean.  

        And, IMO, it comes back to "tax the poor" because we can't "tax the rich".  Once that door was opened successfully, the greed mongers came flooding in.  

        •  Indeed, that "nostalgia for a college education" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BroadwayBaby1, Larsstephens

          is what is keeping many hooked into going to hock for amounts equal to a mortgage.  It is time to step away from the cliff and see the new paradigm in front of us.  

          If the Republicans steal the rest of the branches of government, we are going to see these pigtroughs for the rich just increase.  

          It is hard to resist the urge to put our children in "sun-dappled, leafy campuses,"  but I think it is better than going into indebtured servitude--for them and US.

          If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

          by livjack on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  the similarity is closer than most think (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BroadwayBaby1
        they suck in so many Americans with their easy loans (hey, that kind of rings a bell...) Current college costs are the latest economic bubble.
        Banks have been securitizing student debt and bundling them into CDOs and selling them, just as they did with subprime mortgages (and credit card debt).

        When the bubble pops and the massive mountain of student loans collapses into default, the result will be the same as the subprime collapse.

  •  The trophy should be a statue of Ronald Reagan (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IARXPHD, wu ming, GreenMother

    possibly naked.

  •  Excellent! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wu ming

    I am quite sick of hearing that the Generation That Was In Charge And Made The Rules When I Was Growing Up bitching and moaning about the people who were in charge and the rules that were made when I was growing up.

  •  I'm one of those effin' boomers (0+ / 0-)

    portrayed in the cartoon as enjoying a fancy lakeside resort meal.

    However, I can't literally afford to do that. So even though I and the effin boomers who think like me failed to prevent those other effin boomers (as well as greatest-genners and Gen-Xers) from privatizing public education and otherwise driving a right-wing agenda, I don't accept that I qua boomer am primarily to blame for student debt.

    That is, even though this cartoon has pushed my button for generational identity politics, I don't consider that a useful framework for addressing the issue of the cost of education.  Better to think in terms of ideology or philosophy.

    "Think of something to make the ridiculous look ridiculous." -- Molly Ivins

    by dumpster on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 02:31:43 PM PDT

    •  It's not about the cost of education (0+ / 0-)

      per se. It's about all the Gen x'ers, Boomers, and older people (greatest generation?) who hate The Kids Today because they think The Kids Today get everything handed to them. The amount of suffering among The Kids Today doesn't satisfy them; a little more would be more aesthetically pleasing.

      The debt is just one of the things that makes their whining so ironic.

      Of course, it's not every Boomer. Just a very vocal minority. And usually they're the same people who say that the Boomers were the greediest generation ever (so they should give up SS and Medicare!), so it's not like there's that much love going in the other direction either.

  •  One of the best dkos comments (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    ever. I see these people all over the internet and it makes me want to jump out a window.

    It's important to remember: they don't have a problem with kids getting trophies for "nothing" (where are these trophies being given out, anyway?), they have a problem with anyone besides them getting anything good at all.

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