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This is for the family of and for Christina Taylor-Green, an innocent child shot down in cold blood by a madman armed with deadly weapons, and all the rest who continue to suffer from our obvious domestic terror problem. I refuse to concede to armed madmen and to the total enablers of these madmen-- currently "serving" in our Congress and the sad enablers running the NRA. Everything in our Constitution and contained in any sort of moral/religious code demands we must take action.

I'm not interested in endless "analysis" of the problem. And I'm not interested in yet another congressional "study" of the problem. we've seen this movie several times now. There is a discernable pattern.

Not interested in snarky references to the great Phillip K. Dick. I've read most of his books, some of them twice. I know enough to guess he'd be wondering why
we don't do alot more to stop the carnage-- given the technology at our disposal, and the gigantic amount of our tax dollars spent by local, state, federal law enforcement and various security agencies (16? of them).

Common threads in his work: Statism (corruption, fascism) and the pitfalls of UNreality. Solzhenitsyn also covers this (unreality) with his prescient observations regarding our "technosphere"... but this is for another diary.

This won't be the thread for endless hand-wringing, re: what is and what is not an assault weapon.. what is/is not an automatic weapon. Again, we've seen this movie before. Congress made the call on this before; time to do it again with some expansion.

Not interested in sacrificing further innocent lives, including dozens of children per year, on the altar of the Second Amendment. That said, nothing as drastic as repeal of the Second Amendment is needed.

I'm not implying ALL mass murders can be preempted. I am stating some of them obviously can be and it's time for our various "security" agencies and law enforcement to get on board. Stop the lame excuses. Stop pretending it can't be done.

My apology for the length of the diary; I think the subject matter justifies.

Mission Statement of the Dept. of Homeland Security

The Department of Homeland Security has a vital mission: to secure the nation from the many threats we face. This requires the dedication of more than 240,000 employees in jobs that range from aviation and border security to emergency response, from cybersecurity analyst to chemical facility inspector. Our duties are wide-ranging, but our goal is clear - keeping America safe.
Super! But where is the security? Who exactly is evaluating the performance of this Department? What is the metric for success?
The United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is a cabinet department of the United States federal government, created in response to the September 11 attacks, and with the primary responsibilities of protecting the United States of America and U.S. Territories (including Protectorates)[vague] from and responding to terrorist attacks, man-made accidents, and natural disasters. In fiscal year 2011 it was allocated a budget of $98.8 billion and spent, net, $66.4 billion.
Nearly $100 Billion dollars per year alloted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://www.dhs.gov/...

I don't know about the rest of you, but "The Joker" was the last straw, IMHO. That, plus Trayvon Martin, and the four year old child shot in the head in Brooklyn recently.
All totally beyond acceptable.

It's time for "our" Congress to answer for their denial and lack of sense of urgency regarding our all too frequent  domestic terror problem. And I'm not just referring to the repuglicans. The carnage and terror requires we move beyond partisanship.

I don't care all that much about what Rmoney or Obama has to say about this issue; it's election time (for two + years now) and most of what is said lacks credibility, and again, there's just no sense of urgency.

When President Clinton and the one percenters in Congress decided they wanted NAFTA, they put it on the legislative fast track and got it done in what? 60 days at the most? Obviously things can get done in DC.

I'm looking primarily (for now) at the Aurora case, the VA Tech shooter, Jared Loughner (shooter of congresswoman Giffords) and the Northern Illinois Univ. shooter. There is a discernable pattern here, it's definitely actionable, IF the appropriate resources are committed.

One of the obvious, discernable traits of the shooters: mildly or very mentally ill, detached from reality.
Two: Anti-social behavior. Few, if any, long term relationships.
Three: On prescription medications (anti-depressants and/or other legal/illegal drugs) and allowed to purchase guns.
Four: A personal emotional event/upheaval which starts a downward spiral; with weapons/ammo being purchased during the spiral.
Five: The shooters are in their 20's-30's age wise.
Six: The venues chosen by the shooters are mostly public places with numerous people
sitting/standing in close proximity to one another. The shooters plan carefully for and intend a maximum number of deaths.
Seven: The shooters bring multiple deadly weapons and numerous rounds/clips of ammunition; again, the intent is maximum number of deaths.
Eight: The shooters are using credit cards to purchase their weapons and ammo. I think some of us remember the scene in M. Moore's Bowling for Columbine.
Nine: The shooters are spending time on/posting on anti social/anti government/tin foil hat websites.
Ten: Almost all rampage murderers are male.

The fact our considerable resources/technology are not committed to stopping/slowing down the carnage is weak and unacceptable. We're floundering morally as a nation/people.

Northern Illinois Univ shooting (Date of shooting: 2/14/2008, Number of deaths: 6 [including Kazmierczak, who committed suicide] 22 total people shot. Venue: Univ. Lecture Hall wiith class in session. Around 120 students in the lecture hall. Age of shooter: 27).

We were told that Steven Kazmierczak, who killed five students and then himself at NIU one year ago, was a sweet, unassuming, overachieving grad student who inexplicably snapped. He was not.
Steven Kazmierczak wanted infamy. He wanted video game-style bloodshed. And perhaps most of all, he wanted to punish Northern Illinois University, the "surrogate family" that had kept his demons at bay but that he felt ultimately abandoned him.

 In the 18 months leading up to his lecture hall massacre, Kazmierczak's mother died, he lost his job as a corrections officer and he became angry because he believed NIU had de-emphasized his graduate program, leading him to transfer to another university, according to a 300-page report released by the university Thursday.

A newly released psychological profile contained in the report suggests that everything about the attack signified something in Kazmierczak's troubled mind: the location, the date, the victims.

The report offers the most detailed account to date of Kazmierczak's troubled life, including repeated suicide attempts that required hospitalization, unresolved conflicts with his parents stemming from their decision to institutionalize him and interest in satanic rituals.

The 27-page profile of Kazmierczak, written by an independent psychologist hired by NIU for about $10,000, states that the shooter had been diagnosed as a teenager with schizoaffective disorder, a disabling mental illness characterized by a combination of schizophrenia and a mood disorder such as manic-depression.

 The profile suggests he increased the difficulty of his shooting spree as if it were one of his beloved video games. When he had emptied the shotgun and walked down into the audience with his handguns, he fired at only those who ran or ducked. Those who sat frozen in their seats, the easiest targets, were ignored.

 Kazmierczak, 27, made it difficult for investigators to identify a motive. He didn't leave a suicide note. The hard drive of his computer has never been found. He tossed out his cell phone's memory card.

Steven Kazmierczak entered a large auditorium-style lecture hall in Cole Hall (Auditorium 101) with approximately 120 students, where an oceanography class was in session. Kazmierczak was wearing dark brown boots with laces, jeans, a black t-shirt with the word "Terrorist" written across the chest imposed over an image of an assault rifle; a coat; a black knit hat; and a black utility belt with two magazine holsters, a holster for a handgun, three handguns (a 9mm Glock 19, a 9mm Kurz Sig Sauer P232, and a .380 Hi-Point CF380), eight loaded magazines, and a knife. He also carried in a 12 gauge Remington Sportsman 48 shotgun concealed in a guitar case. Once he donned the weapons, he approached the auditorium. Kazmierczak entered the auditorium from the vestibule, using a door at the extreme southwest corner of the room, which led directly to the stage in front of the classroom; it was there he stood and fired into the crowd of students. He opened the door with such extreme force that many witnesses described him as "kicking the door in".
Sound familar? What other rampage killers used Glocks? and why are they so popular with them? (Video game connection?)

Mr. K's meds: (numerous)

ABC News reports that his behavior seemed to become more erratic in the weeks leading up to the shooting, and that it is believed he stopped taking medication beforehand.His girlfriend, Jessica Baty, confirmed that Kazmierczak was taking Xanax (anti-anxiety), Ambien (sleep aid), and Prozac (antidepressant), all of which were prescribed to him by a psychiatrist. She said that he stopped taking Prozac about three weeks prior to the February 14 shooting.
OK, anyone who knows anything regarding anti-depressant meds knows you don't quit them cold turkey. your doctor/psychiatrist has to approve and monitor you for weeks, and you are weaned off the meds over time.

And there's no mystery any longer regarding the rather large problem with Prozac.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://www.esquire.com/...

Tucson, AZ shooting (Date of shooting: January 8, 2011, Number of deaths: 6, including nine year old Christina-Taylor Green and Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. Dem. Congresswoman Gabby Giffords severely injured, her congressional career ruined. 20 total people shot. Venue: Shopping mall; exterior area. Age of shooter: 22).

Folks, let's face it: Mr. Loughner is a mess, and there were numerous RED flags prior to his meltdown. He's obviously out there in Tin Foil Hat territory. Why was this very disturbed person allowed to purchase guns and ammo?

Glock again:

Loughner allegedly purchased the 9mm Glock pistol used in the shooting from a Sportsman's Warehouse in Tucson on November 30, 2010.[24] The night before the shooting, he left a message on a friend's voicemail saying, "Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."[20] In a MySpace post the morning of the shooting at 4:12 am, he wrote,

Goodbye friends. Please don't be mad at me. The literacy rate is below 5%. I haven't talked to one person who is literate. I want to make it out alive. The longest war in the history of the United States. Goodbye. I'm saddened with the current currency and job employment. I had a bully at school. Thank you. P.S. --plead the fifth![60]

Photos on the MySpace page showed a close-up picture of a handgun sitting atop a document titled "United States History."

OK, just looking at the above, and again, forget the psychoanalysis for now: WHAT is he babbling about? Why on earth should we allow this guy to purchase deadly weapons? Is there much coherence here? Is he merely a "regular" hunter/sport shooter?
Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature. Police say he purchased the Glock pistol used in the attack in November.
I planned ahead. Here we have the perfect foil for those proclaiming "Gee, we just can't stop these guys, we don't what they are doing". It's well known Loughner was all over tin foil hat websites-- where he exhibited behavior and made statements so utterly bizzare that even people in the one UFO site he frequented tagged him as a lunatic.

This is not trackable? This can't be surveilled and raise BIG red flags? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Drug use: again significant.

Zach Osler, a high school classmate of Loughner's, and his closest friend, indicated that Loughner's life began to unravel after his high school girlfriend broke up with him, and he then began to abuse alcohol and drugs, specifically Salvia divinorum (a natural hallucinogen illegal in some states). Another longtime friend, Kylie Smith, added that he had used cannabis (marijuana), psychedelic mushrooms, and LSD around that same time.[19] Loughner quit using marijuana (as well as alcohol and tobacco) in late 2008 and has not used it since, according to one of his longtime friends.[20] The U.S. Army confirmed that Loughner had been rejected as "unqualified" for service in 2008.[21][22][23] According to military sources, Loughner admitted to marijuana use on numerous occasions during the application process.
Regarding Salvia:
Salvia Divinorum is a drug, legal in some states, and is a hallucinogen. Though proponents of the herb that is either smoked, chewed, inhaled, or its juice drunk believe salvia is safe, the National Institute on Drug Abuse NIDA says otherwise.

The NIDA says about Salvia, “People who abuse salvia generally experience hallucinations or “psychotomimetic” episodes (a transient experience that mimics a psychosis).

NO red flags here?

http://www.examiner.com/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

Virginia Tech shooting, Blacksburg, VA (Date of shooting: April 16, 2007. Number of deaths: 32, with 49 total people shot in two incidents on Campus. Shooter Seung-Hui Cho committed suicide after second attack. Venue: West Ambler Johnston Hall, Norris Hall; school was in session during attacks. Age of shooter: 23).

Cho, a senior English major at Virginia Tech, had previously been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder. During much of his middle school and high school years, he received therapy and special education support. After graduating from high school, Cho enrolled at Virginia Tech. Because of federal privacy laws, Virginia Tech was unaware of Cho's previous diagnosis or the accommodations he had been granted at school. In 2005, Cho was accused of stalking two female students. After an investigation, a Virginia special justice declared Cho mentally ill and ordered him to attend treatment.[4] Lucinda Roy, a professor and former chairwoman of the English department, had also asked Cho to seek counseling.[5] Cho's mother also turned to her church for help.
Thus far I've looked at only three mass murders in the U.S.; each shooter is mentally ill and is being allowed to purchase deadly weapons. Even if the HIPPA laws were not in place, why would I believe admissions officials at any university would stop this guy from attending their college? He's a paying customer, right?

IMHO, Mr. Cho should not have been allowed to attend university. He clearly had deep psychological/social problems and was on a very short fuse. Anything could have set him off. He was a threat to the life safety of the general public.

The massacre prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had previously allowed Cho, an individual adjudicated as mentally unsound, to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). It also led to passage of the first major federal gun control measure in more than 13 years. The law strengthening the NICS was signed by President George W. Bush on January 5, 2008.
Wait... You mean it is in fact possible/legal to slow down/stop the purchase of deadly weapons by a mentally ill person?

http://www.roanoke.com/...

Can I just ask: Does any "political leader" in the United States know the meaning of the word "proactive"?

Approximately 10–12 minutes after the second attack began, Cho shot himself in the head.[37] He died in Jocelyne Couture-Nowak's Intermediate French class, room 211. During this second assault, he had fired at least 174 rounds,[21] killing 30 people and wounding 17 more.[1][37] All of the victims were shot at least three times each; of the 30 killed, 28 were shot in the head.[38][39] During the investigation, State Police Superintendent William Flaherty told a state panel that police found 203 live rounds in Norris Hall. "He was well prepared to continue...," Flaherty testified.[40]

During the two attacks, Cho killed five faculty members and 27 students before committing suicide.[41] The Virginia Tech Review Panel reported that Cho's gunshots wounded 17 other people; six more were injured when they jumped from second-story windows to escape.[1] Sydney J. Vail, the director of the trauma center at Carilion Roanoke Memorial Hospital, said that Cho's choice of 9 mm hollow point ammunition increased the severity of the injuries.[42] Conversely, due to the limited penetration depth of hollow point bullets, it is likely that Colman would have died had they not been used.

To our hunter friends: Is hollow point ammo used for hunting?

Glock again:

Cho used two firearms during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun.[12] The shootings occurred in separate incidents, with the first at West Ambler Johnston Hall, during which Cho killed two pupils, and the second at Norris Hall, where the other 31 deaths, including that of Cho himself, as well as all the nonlethal injuries, occurred.
Indeed, it was his intellectual failure that may have driven him to kill. Mr. Cho’s ambition to become a “great writer” was stamped out during college by the negative reactions of professors and students, and also by rejection of a book proposal he wrote.

“These rejections were devastating to him and he fantasized about getting revenge,” Mr. Depue wrote.

A second component of his anger may have stemmed from the economic inequality that became painfully apparent to him at Virginia Tech. While his college bills were paid by his hard-working blue-collar parents, “he was constantly aware of his classmates taking from their affluent parents and squandering their money on luxuries and alcohol.”

With his failure at writing and his disgust at the “haves” combining to motivate him, the remaining question surrounds the timing: why Mr. Cho acted when he did.

“Graduation was only weeks away, but for Cho it was not an occasion for joy,” Mr. Depue said. “Rather it was a time of fear and dread.”

I'm not finding anything regarding use of drugs, legal/illegal by Mr. Cho. Regardless, clearly he was profoundly mentally ill and exhibited anti social behavior, stalking behavior, etc. prior to his meltdown.

Finally: The Joker.

Aurora, CO shooting (Date of shooting: July 20, 2012. Number of deaths: 12, with 70 total people shot, including a thee month old infant. Venue: Century 16 Movie Theater complex; screening midnight premier of The Dark Knight Rises movie. Age of shooter: 25).

GLOCK again:

On May 22, 2012, Holmes purchased his first weapon, a .40-caliber Glock pistol, at a Gander Mountain shop in Aurora, and six days later a Remington Model 870 shotgun at a Bass Pro Shops in Denver. On June 7, just hours after failing his oral exam at the university,[29] he purchased a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle, with a second .40-caliber Glock pistol following on July 6. All the weapons were bought legally. In the four months prior to the shooting, Holmes also bought 3000 rounds of ammunition for the pistols, 3000 rounds for the M&P15, and 350 shells for the shotgun over the internet.On July 2, he placed an order for a Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest, two magazine holders and a knife at an online retailer.
On June 25, less than a month before the shooting, Holmes emailed an application to join a gun club in Byers, Colorado. The owner, Glenn Rotkovich, called him several times throughout the following days to invite him to a mandatory orientation, but could only reach his answering machine. Due to the nature of Holmes' voice mail, which he described as "bizarre, freaky", "guttural, spoken with a deep voice, incoherent and rambling" Rotkovich instructed his staff to inform him if Holmes should show up, though Holmes neither made his appearance at the gun range, nor called back.[45] “In hindsight, looking back -- and if I’d seen the movies -- maybe I’d say it was like the Joker -- I would have gotten the Joker out of it,” Rotkovich said. “It was like somebody was trying to be as weird as possible,” he said.
Trying to be as weird as possible. WTF??
The gunman threw a canister emitting a gas or smoke, partially obscuring the audience members' vision, making their throats and skin itch, and causing eye irritation.[9] He then fired a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, first at the ceiling and then at the audience. He also fired a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine, which malfunctioned after reportedly firing fewer than 30 rounds. Finally, he fired a .40-caliber Glock 22 handgun.He shot first to the back of the room, and then toward people in the aisles. Some bullets passed through the wall and hit people in the adjacent theater 8, which was screening the same movie. Witnesses said the multiplex's fire alarm system began sounding soon after the attack began and staff told people in theater 8 to evacuate. One witness said that she was hesitant to leave because someone yelled that there was someone shooting in the lobby and that they shouldn't leave.
Drug use:
Holmes' defense attorneys claim he was a "psychiatric patient" of the medical director of Anschutz's Student Mental Health Services prior to the Aurora shooting; however, the prosecution disagrees with that claim. Four days after the release of the defense attorney's motion, the judge required this information to be blacked out.
There doesn't seem to be any details regarding drug use (legal/illegal) by Holmes. Obviously Holmes is disturbed. He should not have been allowed to purchase guns, ammo, tear gas canisters, etc.
James Eagan Holmes — suspected in the Aurora movie-theater attack — was seeing a University of Colorado psychiatrist to whom he allegedly mailed a notebook before the July 20 massacre, court documents reveal.

Friday's disclosure came in the wake of two days of news stories about the contents of the notebook, which several news outlets reported contained details of Holmes' alleged murderous plan. Those reports were based on unnamed law enforcement sources.

Just like I don't buy into the CNN-hyped baloney regarding Holmes the "master bomb maker", I'm not concerned with this notebook.

We don't need the notebook to know Holmes planned his performance for four months, and had 50 packages with various ammo, gear, etc., delivered to his home and workplace. did he make any of these purchases with cash? or was everything purchase using his credit card?

Also, I'm reading Holmes received a $26K stipend (from the University?). I'd like to know how much of this was used to purchase guns/ammo/gear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://www.denverpost.com/...

The United States cannot push back a debate about gun control after the mass shooting in Colorado, according to Colin Goddard, who was shot four times during the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

“We just upped the ante for the worst mass shooting in our country’s history, and now is not the time to talk about solutions?” he said on Democracy Now. “It is beyond time to talk about solutions. This conversation should have happened before this shooting in the first place. It is insane when you hear this from people who say they want to put distance between it. This is when people are outraged. This is when people realize that this could happen to them. I mean, everyone goes to movies. Everybody tries to make opening night.”

How do rampage killers like Holmes and the others described above compare to overall statistics:
Only 17.6% of mass killers are between the ages of 18 and 24 years old. Mass murderers do make up a larger share among the population at large in the 18 to 24 and 25- to 34-year-old demographic, but the plurality, 35.8% of rampage killers, are actually 35- to 49-year-olds. This percentage is well above the 20.5% of the entire population that is 35-49 years-old. Few mass murderers are above the age of 50.

Overall, the median age for rampage killers is 33 years old compared to the 27 years old median for all murders, which are both lower than the median age United States population of 37.

I would like to see the stats on this since year 2000.

Operative sentence:
"Mass murderers do make up a larger share among the population at large in the 18 to 24 and 25- to 34-year-old demographic..."

Conclusions/Next Steps:

1. Congress must again ban assault weapons/military style assault weapons, and the sales of large capacity magazines to civilians. Ban these sales at shops and at the gun shows.

2. Congress must follow Virginia's lead and ban the sales of guns to the mentally ill. I mean, c'mon. There's just no common sense here. Mr. Cho should not have been allowed to arm himself with guns and ammo.

3. Universities must be allowed to know the mental health status of student applicants. If universities are going to allow attendance by mentally ill studetnts, the students must be monitored closely. Most universities already have staff who do this sort of work.

4. Congress must create a, if you will, "rampage killer unit" within the FBI, DHS, or other appropriate security agency.

5. Let's dispense with the nonsense "we can't surveil everyone". Wrong, it's already being done. Please read Jame Bamford, etc. The TIA program never really went away.

6. Point the surveillance lens at the "right" people to preempt rampage killings, using the obvious markers any of us can look at and see are there. The perps in the four cases I looked at are buying more or less the exact same handgun. this is not a trend, not a marker?

Yes, this will be somewhat difficult, but the notion it is impossible is total nonsense.

One more thing regarding Glock handguns:

But the handgun he used, the Glock Pistol, has proved the weapon of choice for spree killers across the world.

Norwegian far-Right extremist Anders Behring Breivik used a Glock 17 to kill most of the 67 people he shot dead during his massacre on the island of Utoya a year ago this Sunday.

Sweden's Peter Mangs, the man accused of being behind to more than a dozen shootings of immigrants in the city of Malmo, owned a Glock 19.

Germany's Robert Steinhäuser, who killed 17 people in the 2001 Erfurt massacre, used a Glock 17.

In the US, the weapon crops up still more frequently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

The truly tragic aspect of the Aurora disaster is the perp planned for four months; red flags and warning signs everywhere. Four months.

The notion Holmes' guns/ammo/body armor purchases were "normal". Normal for who? yes, possibly for a person who was already a gun owner, tho' I have to question the full body armor (why is this available to civilians?) the tear gas grenades, the drum magazine, and the gunpowder used in the devices he set up in his apartment.

Sorry, this is not normal behavior for a young college student with a promising future ahead of him.

Regarding the Big Brother hysteria.. that horse left the barn long ago. My position is if more determined surveillance can save the life of ONE Christina Taylor-Green, it's well worth it.

Thank you and have a safe weekend.

Brady Center website:

http://www.bradycenter.org/...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

http://www.rawstory.com/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/...

Poll

I Agree: Some Rampage Murder can be Preempted; Congress Must Act.

51%16 votes
35%11 votes
12%4 votes

| 31 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:16:06 AM PDT

  •  Terrorist, whether domestic or international, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superpole

    are like rapists.  They justify the "protectors" who advise women to stay home and travelers to allow themselves to be pawed by the Air Transport inspectors.
    Think of the wolf, who justifies the sheep pen and the chicken coop.
    It is true that the Constitution precludes preemptive behavior against individuals. However, the manufacture and sale of weapons of mass (or multiple) destruction can be regulated and contained.
    That it's not being done suggests that the behavior of the domestic terrorist is perceived as useful to the forces of law and order -- i.e. the culture of obedience.

    For example, the notification that an individual was intending to traverse our community on his way to do himself in at the edge of the ocean, served to justify the evacuation of a whole neighborhood by the police in the middle of the night. Fear is obviously a valued excuse for subordination.

    How do we rid our agents of law enforcement of the impulse to subordinate and exert power?  That's probably a billion dollar question.

    Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage". He's not into "catch and release."

    by hannah on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:38:43 AM PDT

    •  Superb, Thank you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      truong son traveler

      hannah.

      That it's not being done suggests that the behavior of the domestic terrorist is perceived as useful to the forces of law and order -- i.e. the culture of obedience.
      I've been wondering for some time now why law enforcement seems to look the other way regarding violence against Planned Parenthood centers, and abortion providers-- to the point doctors have been flat out murdered in cold blood.

      there's something very wrong here

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:44:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Holmes's stipend is the usual stipend given to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VectorScalar

    all doctoral students in his field. It is essentially a salary b/c doctoral research involves work in a professor's lab. Thus it's irrelevant what he used it for. If it was a salary paid to him by private employer, would you blame the employer for Holmes's actions?

    I agree that most of these people were mentally disturbed in some way and it's a good idea to make it more difficult for people like this to buy guns. However, many people have mental health problems and kicking them all out of universities and confining them to hospitals is both cruel and impractical.

    •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      truong son traveler

      Where did I state I blame the university for anything? although that will be coming from the victims and their families.

      are you implying a stipend is the exact same thing as a salary? if it is, then why not just call it a salary in the first place

      However, many people have mental health problems and kicking them all out of universities and confining them to hospitals is both cruel and impractical.
      weak postion. it's also damn impractical for US/ME to be shot at/murdered by these well armed madmen.

      my diary makes it clear-- this is BULLcrap

      time to err on the side of the sane.

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:53:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Denying a firearm purchase (5+ / 0-)

        on the basis of mental illness requires an ADJUDICATION of same.
        I do not propose to change that. I do not propose to mandate psychological testing to qualify any individual for the exercise of Second Amendment or any other constitutional right.
        I hope that is not what you are proposing.

        "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

        by kestrel9000 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:59:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Do you know what a stipend is? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG, VectorScalar

        The premise is that it is more of financial support for services rendered rather than an hourly wage.  The term is most often used with certain classes of people, such as interns or clergy and can be viewed as an allowance for living expenses that is often packaged with other benefits, such as room and board.  In practice, it functions pretty much as salary.

        If you don't know what a stipend is, maybe it shouldn't be one of your points.

      •  It is treated as salary by IRS. (0+ / 0-)
        •  So Stipend is Just a Fancy (0+ / 0-)

          way of saying salary, and my question remains.. how much of this salary did he use for the weapons/ammo/body armor etc?

          "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

          by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 06:45:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not always. That depends on (0+ / 0-)

          what the services are and how they are valued. I don't know the latest IRS regs and position on this is but it was that if your work was primarily for your required training, eg degree requirements it could be excluded.

          I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

          by samddobermann on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 12:46:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Restricting a weapon's availability (7+ / 0-)

    on the basis of its manufacturer is ridiculous on its face.
    As is restricting the availability of dogs on the basis of breed.

    "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

    by kestrel9000 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:02:23 PM PDT

  •  First, you say: (7+ / 0-)
    This won't be the thread for endless hand-wringing, re: what is and what is not an assault weapon.
    Then, you say:
    Congress must again ban assault weapons/military style assault weapons
    Seems to me like you don't want discussion. You want your way or the highway.

    "Assault weapon" is a political term that means whatever politicians want it to mean.

    "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

    by kestrel9000 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:04:34 PM PDT

  •  Yes, I am Proposing Our (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    truong son traveler

    nation follow Virginia's lead; they decided it was rather dumb to let mentallu ill people purchase guns and they revised their law(s) accordingly:

    After Cho slipped through a crack in the system and went on to commit the largest mass shooting in modern U.S history, Virginia rushed to change its law to add outpatient commitments to the database.

    Four years later, the number of mentally ill people stopped from buying a gun has nearly doubled.

    The background checks blocked 215 transactions last year, compared with 109 the year of the shootings, according to figures compiled by Virginia State Police. And the database has grown by 63 percent, to 145,728 mental health records at the end of last year.

    215 transactions blocked in one year. that simple action alone likely SAVED LIVES. that is the objective here.

    building the database-- that is exactly what needs to happen and using it.

    http://www.roanoke.com/...

    "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:09:21 PM PDT

    •  Superpole, you have misrepresented (8+ / 0-)

      information I gave you.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      It is already illegal to sell firearms to people who have been adjudicated by a court to be mentally incompetent.  This is Federal Law.

      Virginia had a problem with how their information of such people was being reported to the appropriate databases.  This is why Cho was not in the system, not because Virginia or the Federal government didn't have any laws about it.  Virginia fixed their laws to strengthen the reporting and clarify the disqualifying requirements.

      You have claimed that the nation needs to follow Virginia, when in reality it was Virginia that was catching up to the nation.

      You were either very confused on what happened, or you are deliberately making false claims.  I certainly hope it was the former, but due to the tone and slant you've put on other information you used, and your responses to some commenters, I am leaning towards the latter.

      I urge you to re-research and re-write your diary.  As is, it's almost a complete waste of electrons, except that it seems to indicate your agenda.

      Good day to you.

       

      •  I am sold on the latter (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Seaview

        He misrepresented his intentions to me as well in a private kosmail exchange prior to posting this.
        This individual has about as much personal integrity as my ex-wife, which is to say, none whatever.

        "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

        by kestrel9000 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 02:19:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

          I was not aware of you being with the RKBA group here.. I had to ask around as I didn't even know what that was.

          so I was not prepared for you to come out guns blazing.. a poor pun admittedly...

          as far as me pushing an agenda... I'm not sure why that is a sin. agendas are pushed here every day

          maybe it's a problem because I am interested in improving public health and safety, while I'm not sure that is the same objective as the NRA

          "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

          by Superpole on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 05:48:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Regarding website behavior (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superpole, VectorScalar

    The practical solution is for the government to track everyone's internet behavior (not just specific "tin foil hat" sites, but everywhere) and data mine the hell out of that history to discover patterns.

    Are you willing to advocate going that far?

    •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

      if you read Mr. Bamford's piece and you look at the $$ spent on our "dark agencies" year after year.. they are likely already doing what you suggest... so it's more or less irrelevant what you or I advocate.

      I am suggesting we use data mining and whatever it else it takes to preempt these perps and save the lives of our people. this should be a no brainer by now.

      particularly after VA Tech.

      this crap is not accepted in Japan, Australia, etc

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:26:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped and rec'd. (3+ / 0-)

    Not because I agree with everything the diarist says, but because it's a discussion worth having - one we need to have.

    I agree that we need to do something about the proliferation of guns in our society, particularly the ones that have no purpose other than to kill lots of people quickly.

    I agree that the status quo is unacceptable, but it's a tricky matter. Should ppl be allowed to own guns for home defense? I tend to think yes. Should ppl be able to buy assault rifles or other weapons suitable for mass killings? I think not.

    In terms of what action should be taken, I would like to see a focus on the gun manufacturing and marketing industries. These assholes flood our streets with guns that serve no earthly purpose other than to make our society more dangerous. I would like to see reasonable and effective gun control, but would draw the line at an outright ban. I would like to see far fewer guns in our society and would support a ban on assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, explosive bullets, assault armor, etc. But I can see the argument for basic 2nd amendment protections for responsible gun ownership for home protection. That's why I see it as complicated, trying to thread that needle or walk that line between the most basic 2nd amendment thing and the madness of a gun free-for-all like we have now.

    I also think it's important to recognize that just controlling/limiting guns will not, on its own, solve our problem with violence. We need to consider all the other social factors that feed our violent tendencies. And that's when it really gets complicated. Should we censor video games? Should we disallow or otherwise sanction violent movies, etc? Clearly we are a society gone wrong on many levels. We need to keep that context in mind.

    Wear Your Love Like Heaven ~ Donovan

    by One Pissed Off Liberal on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 01:09:26 PM PDT

    •  P.S. (3+ / 0-)

      I am strongly opposed to TIA and domestic spying. I realize that my objection will not stop it, but I am not at all comfortable saying that since they're already doing it, they should focus on potential mass killers. OTOH, I'm all for good police work and any reasonable steps that might preempt these tragedies.

      Wear Your Love Like Heaven ~ Donovan

      by One Pissed Off Liberal on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 01:13:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        truong son traveler

        if the state is going to take actions regardless of what we do, they may as well take actions which protect public life/safety

        "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

        by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 01:48:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is a great diary-Superpole. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Superpole

          And we do need to have this discussion.

          "But the protesters were only armed with chalk---the cops had guns and batons----and they were beating the protesters."

          by lyvwyr101 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 08:51:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you ;-) (0+ / 0-)

            yes, discussion... but lengthy not necessary.

            we've just had three rampage killings in what? 40 days? then there was the VA Tech killing which occured in 2007-- five years ago.

            we had more or less the exact same discussion then as we are having now.. the same hand-wringing, etc.

            time is short. it's time now for congress to act.

            they will waste 1-2 years figuring this out... let's not waste additional time on top of that

            "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

            by Superpole on Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 11:18:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Good Take, Thanks (2+ / 0-)
      I also think it's important to recognize that just controlling/limiting guns will not, on its own, solve our problem with violence
      agreed.

      again, for starters, what I am suggesting is doing wha the state of VA has already in fact done-- stop the purchase of handguns by the mentally ill.

      that alone will go a long way to save lives and prevent injury.

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 01:46:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A few quibbles: (0+ / 0-)
      particularly the ones that have no purpose other than to kill lots of people quickly
      Which ones, in particular, are those?  And why do people who say this almost invariably want them only in the hands of police and government?  Why do they want police and government to be able to "kill lots of people quickly"?  (Please note I didn't say "you", because you haven't actually stated an opinion of state agents having them.)
      These assholes flood our streets with guns that serve no earthly purpose other than to make our society more dangerous.
      Umm, no, they don't.  They can't even keep up with market demand.  And again, what guns, specifically?
      I would like to see reasonable and effective gun control, but would draw the line at an outright ban.
      Yet your only proposal is... a ban...
      I would like to see far fewer guns in our society...
      What is your proposal?  Confiscations?  "Buy-backs"?  
      explosive bullets, assault armor
      What on earth are you talking about?
      But I can see the argument for basic 2nd amendment protections for responsible gun ownership for home protection.
      Protection with firearms is not limited to the home.  Neither are many other legitimate uses.  The Constitution doesn't stop at your door-frame.
      We need to consider all the other social factors that feed our violent tendencies.
      YES!!!... but then.... oh, no, you go off the rails into further restrictions on freedom and liberty.  Censorship?!  Really?!  Gaaaahhhhhh....

      I really don't think you've thought this through well at all.

  •  CLARIFICATION: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    truong son traveler

    apparently some of you have not been involved with large scale project management.

    discussion is short, concise.

    focus/effort is on action/resolution.

    the focus is not on the discussion.

    "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Superpole on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 02:20:05 PM PDT

  •  So, basically... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gfv6800, PavePusher

    You're advocating a Complete Surveillance State where you can be arrested or otherwise denied your rights because you're weird?  

    Anyway.  Lots of assumptions in here that don't necessarily hold.

    Also: The effects of salvia are very short-term.

    Regarding the Big Brother hysteria.. that horse left the barn long ago. My position is if more determined surveillance can save the life of ONE Christina Taylor-Green, it's well worth it.
    I think it's likely to kill and/or ruin the lives of more people than it's likely to save.  Look at the drug war: how many innocent people have been terrorized and/or killed because the address on a warrant was wrong?  You think it's going to be any better if you're watching 'suspected terrorists' using a very fuzzy set of criteria?
  •  At least you're self-aware! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PavePusher, Superpole
    Not interested in snarky references to the great Phillip K. Dick.

    Mitt Romney '12: Berlusconi without the sex and alcohol!

    by Rich in PA on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 02:52:02 PM PDT

  •  Tip 4 effort. A few thoughts on your conclusions. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superpole

    1.  I completely agree there is a discernable, actionable pattern.

    2.  However, just as there is a discenerable, actionable pattern in gang shootings (young black males as both victim and perpetrator), the knowledge can only be reflected in the targeting of outreach, education, and mental health services - not in denial of anything that would otherwise be accessible to the individual.  Otherwise the result is stigmatization and isolation that contributes to the problem.

    3.  Absolutely ban assault weapons, high-capacity magazines.  They have no purpose in civilian life other than to disrupt and destroy it.

    4.  Ban the sale of guns to those whom mental health professionals have certified as potentially violent due to their mental illness, and allow an appeals process that can involve contrary opinions by other mental health professionals, or settlements with voluntary security measures agreed to by a purchaser to allay concerns.  If undertaken, the mental health professionals must be held to a high standard of accountability for their official opinions.  Potentially thorny because of the possibility - remote, but highly dangerous if it occurred - that an authoritarian government could use mental health in the same as the Soviet Union: To stigmatize, discredit, and in this case, disarm dissidents.

    5.  Unnecessary for universities to know the mental health status of applicants.  If mental health had ever been a behavioral problem in their academic career, that would be part of the records that would be turned over by prior schools in the application process.  Universities are already informed by mental health if a student is thought to become a security threat.  Beyond that, totally unnecessary invasion of privacy.  Still, mental health professionals could receive better training about recognizing threats and when to communicate the matter and to whom.

    6.  I don't know if spree killings are statistically significant enough to justify an entire unit.  Just because their emotional impact is substantial does not make them a threat that rationally justifies phenomenological focus.  At least, not until every other threat with more prominence has its own unit too.  Murders of what are basically kids occur every day in inner cities for no more significant reason than someone bumped into someone else and didn't apologize - that's a lot more worthy of a major task force.  The nationwide emotional impact is lower, but the real impact in total is vastly larger.  It doesn't have to be either/or, but before it stops being either/or, we would have to solve all kinds of secondary fiscal problems.

    7.  No, you really can't surveil everyone, nor should you try.  It's a waste of time, and a completely illusionary sense of security - how safe are prisons?  And even if you could, you know it would overwhelmingly be used abusively and far more rarely to save lives.

    8.  I would bet Glocks are also popular among the general gun-buying public, so we don't know if there is a statistically significant correlation with spree-killings that rises above the factors that make it popular generally.  If not, then it would not be a useful predictor except in the presence of other factors that would, by themselves, be sufficient to justify directing more services attention at someone.  

    Obviously the fear that spree killings inspire justifies more effort be devoted to combating them than their mere statistical numbers suggest, but the extent of that commitment is not unbounded.  You mention the little girl killed in the Loughner massacre, but little girls are dying from stray bullets in the ghetto all the time.  The solution is the same:

    Hit the manufacturers.  Tax the shit out of their profits - there is no legitimate case that denying profits to gun manufacturers is an attack on the 2nd Amendment, because citizens can still manufacture and distribute them on a non-profit basis if they are seriously committed.  What this does is that it destroys the NRA, which is basically an industry shill.  Without the financial backing of the industry, the NRA is little more than an enthusiast organization with no more power than other advocacy groups of similar numbers.

    Republicans hate you more than they love their children.

    by Troubadour on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:02:35 PM PDT

    •  Great Points, Thank you for your Input (0+ / 0-)

      "Hit the manifacturers".

      agreed, but not likely to happen in the midst of our corporate oligarchy.. and given the influence of our gun culture. plus I'm sure the "job destroyer" meme would quickly be drug out. Weapons are our Numero Uno export.

      agreed the NRA is an industry shill.. thank you for saying so.

      #7. I disagree. don't underestimate the technology and the people behind it. my beef is with the casual dismissal of something with out trying it first.

      #6. Murders of kids in cities every day. I'm aware-- I live in the Chicago area. FYI, I term this violence terrorism as I assume many who are suffering from it do as well. this is getting a bit off topic.

      gang related violence is not planned four months in advance. it's often opportunistic, so not as actionable as the rampage killings. that is what I want to focus on

      we're talking life and death here. I think the gravity of the situation requires this approach.

      #8. Glocks: I agree they are not a strong marker, but given they have been used in several rampage killings, i think they are worth looking at nonetheless as a marker.

      #5. Agree and disagree. we're erring too much on the side of the minority (the mentally ill). per the diary, I'm not interested in being shot at by armed madmen.. nor should I be subjected to in universities or other public places. public life safety is the objective-- we've lost sight iof that in the interest of "privacy" and the 2nd amendment.

      #4. totally agree. we can see VA has already done this, and has likely saved lives. how long bfore the citizens of CO demand similar law revisions in their state-- given they have now been subjected to at least two deadly rampage killings?

      I agree with most everything else you stated.

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 05:34:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wish the world could be as you believe it is, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, Superpole

    but it isn't. The guns exist in the hands of people that will not give them up without violence.  Unlike you Total Information Awareness scares Hell out of me.  I you don't mind (and for that matter even if you do) I believe I'll hang onto my rifle, 30 round mag and all.  

    •  Instead of mere wishing... (0+ / 0-)

      let's work together to make the needed improvements.

      I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm interested in "taking away your rifle and magazine"?? this appears to be a bit xenophobic. no need to got there, OK?

      for starters, I am recommending doing what VA did in the wake of their rampage killer Mr. Cho-- a severely disturbed person.

      are you at least OK with (adjudicated) stopping people like him from purchasing guns/ammo?

      "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 05:38:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry for taking so long to reply, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Superpole

        I can’t help but be a little frightened by the idea that “they” have the power to data mine my E footprint and place me on a no gun list that works like the no fly list.  No sane person believes that insane people should have access to guns…. but, I am willing to accept the the few crazies that our present system gives benefit of doubt to so long as rest of us get it too.  Once you’re
        on the no gun list can you ever get off, do they tell when your placed on it, what other lists will be crossed referenced with the  no gun list, what if you already own guns, does the public have a right to know if your on the list, like a sex offender.  Though you say you have no interest in taking my weapon I assure you that  it is an extreme example of the type you most disapprove  of.  I use if for target shooting. I do not hunt, it is a military weapon.  I own it because  I believe that if enough of these weapons are in the hands of honest, sane, civilians, the we will never need them.  I don’t want to live in a world where “they” have hunter/killer drones and I have… well nothing.  I won’t live in that world.  You can only give up the right to own arms once.  I don’t just own it for me - I own it for you too.

        BTW
         Thanks for taking the time to respond nicely

        •  I am not an Anarchist (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lyvwyr101

          yet that is what our nation is more or less being subjected to-- in the financial sector and apparently in the gun area.

          I can't support lawlessness.

          one of my main beefs with the NRA is they meddle/interfere with state's rights to enact stricter laws/penalties for careless, stupid parents who leave loaded guns accessible to their children-- who think it's a toy and kill the six year old neighbor kid.

          this sad scenario happens literally dozens of times per year in the U.S.

          I have no issue with honest, sane gun owners having guns-- other than military style assault weapons... Japan, Australia, etc., does not allow this, so I'm not sure why it's allowed in the U.S,

          is there a threat at our borders?

          "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

          by Superpole on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 08:01:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Question. Wouldn't a ban just increase illegal (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Superpole

            gun runners (or whatever they are called)?

            Forgive me in advance for being naive about this aspect but this is one thing that pops into my mind whenever I read the various discussions about gun control.

            It has stunned me over the years to see images of countries, with seemingly little resources or technology for their people, in possession of varied military assault weapons.  To discover that there are peoples in some of these countries that may not be able to read or write but can handcraft replicas of assault weapons.

            Seems to me that bans or making weapons not easily accessible does not deter those who really really want them.

            •  Here's the thing... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lyvwyr101

              HOW MUCH $$ is afcrapistan costing us per month?

              $4 Billion?

              take two billion of that, hire and train enough law enforcement people to deal with black market guns.

              it's not that hard to do.

              The effort simply has to be made

              Peace

              "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

              by Superpole on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 07:20:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  National count: three Aurora shootings a day- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superpole

    "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

    by lyvwyr101 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 08:33:53 AM PDT

  •  Demand a Plan! (0+ / 0-)

    "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

    by lyvwyr101 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 12:46:34 PM PDT

  •  Your proposals, in order: (0+ / 0-)

    1. Congress will not ban "assault weapons" or "large capacity magazines."  One, "assault weapon" is an arbitrary, cosmetic classification.  Two, magazine capacity has very little bearing on the lethality of the shooter.  Compare Aurora with Virginia Tech In the first instance you have AR-15 with 100 round drum, 2 Glock 22s with standard mag, and 12 dead.  In the latter, you have a Glock 19 and Walther P22 with standard mags only, and 32 dead.

    2. Congress acted four years ago.  

    3. No argument in principle, but plenty of questions about execution.  I'll defer most for later discussion, but one could use some immediate attention.  What do you do about non-students, or students who are no longer enrolled for whatever reason?  I've raised the point about site security in several diaries now, and the main reason is that we're dealing with places that are essentially public accommodations.

    4. This essentially punts the essential nuts and bolts of solving the problem to someone else.  Anyone can propose a committee, task force, etc.

    5. I'd submit that if mining and analytics had evolved to the point where we could "surveil everyone," that Facebook would be using it right now.

    6. How do you collect those markers in the first place?

    Point 1 is essentially our main area of disagreement.  I figure if you think it through, you'd find that to hold your position you'll need to seek the elimination of all private ownership of semi-automatic weapons.  That borders on not just political, but physical impossibility.  And even if you had a magic wand to overcome that hurdle, you'd need an even more powerful one to do away with things like theft to in order to obliterate the black market.

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