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My friend Sandy, who is not only a Repulican, but worse, a Birther Republican

She is a good friend of mine. We cover for each other at work. She cares for me, we talk about work and friendship, and yet,

She is a birther Republican. She really believes that crap about Obama's birth certificate.

I asked her ok let Romney release his tax returns for the last ten years and she went kind of, oh , tender on me. Like I'm just so not quite right in the head or something.

She claims that she hates Obama because the ACA will ruin her and her husband's small business. Because the healthcare insurance company they deal with has raised their rates and blamed the ACA.

I said to her "you do realize that in 2014 when the rest of Obamacare takes effect, that because of the parts of that law, they will have to give that money back to you"? No she doesn't not at all. She doesn't believe that at all. And no way could I convince her of that. In spite of quoting parts of it to her. She accused me of not reading it all. Well, which of course I haven't. At least not all parts of it.

But she hasn't read ANY of the ACA, so we're even haha. That's the trouble with normal people trying to argue politics. You can't possibly keep up. You can only have a gut feeling about your interests.

So this conversation went on and on and I asked her, do you really want to vote for the guys who want to gut SS and Medicare, and then she got all tender again and said oh Rose, those are already really gone, and I said yeah because YOUR guys gutted them (I was really pretty pissed off by this time) and told her that no, they're NOT gone unless YOUR guys want them to be (which they do).

This is what we're up against. I hope you guys can help me with the Sandys of the world. She's going to vote for RMoney otherwise. And I hate that because she really is my friend. Ucccchhhh.

And this creepy, not mad, very sweet recitation of Republican talking points. And this is a person I think I know. Maybe not. Like I said, this is what we're up against.

And of course you do realize me asking for Romney to release tax returns got me exactly nowhere. She's convinced he paid a lot of taxes. Well of course she is. Haha.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (22+ / 0-)

    Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

    by Rosebuddear on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:00:36 PM PDT

  •  It doesn't matter how out of touch she is (10+ / 0-)

    her's is just one vote , don't worry , she will not decide the election .
    Help her as much as you can , but don't worry .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:04:56 PM PDT

    •  I don't (4+ / 0-)

      like she says she lives in blue district her vote wont count haha................but still I worry............lots of people like that out there...............but no I don't worry and will always keep working

      Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

      by Rosebuddear on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:08:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This will be of no help, just ignore them (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hungrycoyote, Rosebuddear, Lujane

    Can't do what I've done and basically shunned them from y life, because ost people don't like being that way, but really, you'll never convince people this far gone. She could get the check in 2014 fro her health care co. and believe that somehow Republicans were responsible for it...

  •  good luck (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rosebuddear, Lujane, JamieG from Md

    I wouldn't have the patience, but I've seen a couple diaries today about folks who got thru the fog of stupid that is so dense over almost half of the inhabitants of the US.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:07:52 PM PDT

  •  Been There Done That (3+ / 0-)

    agree to disagree and move on.

    When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

    by webranding on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:12:19 PM PDT

  •  No, But Many Will Help You With Those Who Listen (10+ / 0-)

    to that person but aren't taught her crap by their God and bosses. People who can be persuaded.

    I'm one of not very many people who've changed a broad community consensus. Having actual experience doing that, I can assure you you can't reach her.

    Even in the world of physical gadgetry, when people are badly misinformed they become immune to the most obvious facts and logic. You can literally put a gadget into people's hands that works better for them right awy when they use it, than the gadget they're used to using. But if they're wedded to contrary propaganda like the person you're talking about, they will put it down and go back to the gadget they already have, and resume tearing their hair out to get half-baked results they're used to.

    Now, for people who are more open minded, it still takes a major effort to persuade them in an information environment as dysfunctional as America's. Focus on the people we can easily reach, the ones who aren't going to Hell or losing their dockful of yachts if they accept a fact brought to their attention by a liberal.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:16:58 PM PDT

  •  In 12 step groups there is a thing (12+ / 0-)

    about it being more important to understand than to be understood.

    I forget this when talking to Libertarians and Republicans because sometimes I feel such a strong desire to shake and shake them.

    What works better for me is to just stick with one point and keep at that. And I bring it down to a very simple concrete level.

    Recently a guy I work with was telling me it wasn't the governments job to help people in need. He thought that was the job of churches and neighbors and communities.

    As an atheist I had a real problem with that one but I just asked him how he thought that might work out detail wise.
    I listened to his ideas and kept repeating "That's not working though is it? The world has gotten too big for that".

    I know this guy because we volunteer at the same non profit group that helps people in need. We are not their church, neighbors or community at all. We just help bring a group of people dealing with the same problems together.

    I'm not sure how good a job of understanding I did of him. As a socialist the libertarians are my polar opposites. But we were able to laugh about it and I was left thinking about how communities could do more and hopefully he is chewing on the idea that the world is a much bigger place than it was 70 years ago when he was a kid.

    We left room and a good atsmosphere to discuss it further.
    Don't know if that helps.

    Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature.

    by ZenTrainer on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:18:10 PM PDT

  •  Has She Ever Been Outside The United States? (14+ / 0-)

    If she's ever traveled outside the borders of the United States, she must have been issued a passport.  What did she send in for the required birth certificate?

    Barack Obama has had a passport for decades......years & years before he became President.  He was an Illinois state senator for 11 years before being legally elected as a US Senator.  Proof of birth/citizenship are required for both positions.  Proof of citizenship is also required BEFORE running for President.  

    He's black.  That's the real issue.  A black man is in THEIR White House.  

    Don't waste your breath.  You'll never convince her.  And.....she's really going to be furious after November 6th.  You may want to take a break from this woman pretty soon anyway......she's going to go bonkers when the light turns on, & she realizes they're going to lose.  

    •  yep gotcha (5+ / 0-)

      although Im not sure she will she really is different from most of them god I hope so anyway

      I think she's going to go bonkers when her marriage goes sour actually I think thats what is really bothering her I don't she will turn against me as a friend

      God I just wish I could turn away that one vote from Mitt tho that guy scares me to death and it bugs me that she doesn't see it

      Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

      by Rosebuddear on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:28:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  try this: "prescribe the symptom." (7+ / 0-)

        A psychiatrist by the name of Milton Erickson was for a time in charge of the psychiatric ward at a hospital.  He had two schizophrenic patients who each were convinced that they were Jesus Christ.

        One day he arranged for the two patients to meet each other.  They rapidly got into a long conversation, each asserting to the other that he was Jesus.  

        Shortly after that, each of the patients dropped in on Erickson in his office.  "Doc, when I figured out that the other guy was crazy, I realized that I'm crazy too!"

        So do this with your friend:

        Probably you know someone who is a 9/11 Truther: who believes in "LIHOP" ("Let It Happen On Purpose") or "MIHOP" ("Made It Happen On Purpose").  

        To get up to speed on 9/11 CT, see also:

        OK, so arrange for a Truther friend to meet your Birther friend.  Arrange for them to have time to talk.  Warn your Truther friend in advance, that they'll be trying to convince a Republican, and they shouldn't "go off" or get into rant mode, but just patiently and quietly keep explaining.

        If this works, you'll end up with each of them realizing that the other one believes in crazy shit, and then realizing that they themselves believe in crazy shit too.   And recognizing that one has a problem, is the first step toward treating it.

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 08:26:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, Lujane

      this is exactly what I think.

      Never been sure if she thinks that. She's very um shady about that.

      I don't want to go there. But you may be right.

      Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

      by Rosebuddear on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 07:36:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'd ask your friend what Republicans have ever (6+ / 0-)

    done for small businesses.  They've done plenty for big business, sure, but that may hurt your friend's small business a lot more than it helps.  

    The fact that the economy collapsed at the end of 8 years of Bush should be evidence enough that Republican ideas don't work for the economy.  The shrinking of the middle class started way back with Reagan and Republicans continue to make life harder and harder for the middle class.

    One of the easiest things to explain to your friend... if she thinks about nearly every policy that Republicans support, they always take away from the middle class and poor, and it is these people who spend and drive most of the demand.  When these folks don't have money to spend, her business is toast (unless she caters only to the rich).

    Does she want the economy to put money in the hands of people who will spend it, or people who will stick it in a Swiss Bank?  Put a million bucks into the hands of 10 families, and most of it will go back into the economy.  Put a million bucks into the hands of one family who already have millions?  Maybe it goes into a trust fund or to buy a house in Costa Rica.  Ask her to think about that.

    I hate to be harsh, but with many Republicans reasoning is not going to help because they are:  greedy, and they think that Republicans can make them richer; or they are not very bright so they fall for Republican fear mongering; or they are racist, and hate it that we have a president who is not white.  A person may have to be both ignorant and racist to fall for that birther crap (sorry to say that).

  •  I read this several times. (5+ / 0-)

    You do not have to do anything with her.  You have to do something with you. You want her agreement.  That puts you one down.

    I suggest you do the following.  It will take self control but the payoff will be rich.

    Drop your fact.  Example:

    You:  The frammis is going to dissolve.  I read a scientific study that said so.

    Her:  Nonsense.  You liberals are so ___.  That will never happen.

    You: say NOTHING.

    six months go by

    Her: OMG.  The frammis has dissolved.

    You:  Smile broadly and say "I am so going to enjoy saying this. I told you so."

    She will be extremely annoyed.  She will get over it if you really are friends.  And the next time you drop a fact on her, she will say a kneejerk NO, but she will listen.

    I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

    by CherryTheTart on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 08:07:41 PM PDT

  •  I've seen a bazillion diaries since I've been (6+ / 0-)

    here about "how-how-how can I change the mind of this RWNJ I'm stuck with"

    and nary a one about talking to the people who might actually have the possibility (however slim) of changing their minds: The independents. The undecideds.

    Really, I sympathize with this of you who have someone close who is an irredeemable winger, and I suppose some of you have to put up with this. I've seen a lot of suggestions over time, and I hope someone's gotten some use out of them.

    But it makes me weep, because if we'd only spend half of this effort reaching out to and talking to independents, getting them registered and fired up to vote - then, maybe, we'd actually get somewhere.

    Sorry, I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone's RW relatives, friends or coworkers. But this type of discussion is right now getting to my last nerve.

    •  Agreed, tryingto talk sense to those this far gone (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, jan4insight, Rosebuddear

      Is a waste of energy that could be more profitably spent on those who are still honestly undecided. Plus, arguing with the 'true believers' really can leave you feeling exhausted, depressed, angry, and hopeless about the system.

      As with many things in life, sometimes you just have to recognize when you have to cut your losses.

      Romney/Ryan 2012 - Every now and then I'm known to make a mistake...

      by Fordmandalay on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 09:16:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I understand that, but I don't believe I know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rosebuddear, juca

      a single person who hasn't chosen a side. Maybe I pass some during the day, but anytime a conversation occurs, everybody starts with a firm opinion. All I can do is try to disprove some of the more insane lies that many of them believe.

      "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

      by tb92 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 at 11:33:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just wanted to thank everybody (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JamieG from Md, juca, ladybug53

    Who stopped in here to comment. It was a long day yesterday and I got tired early and couldn't stick around to answer all.

    What depresses me is that in this supposedly "blue" state, (Minnesota), damn near all the people I know are out and out wingers. Now normally I don't get drawn into these kinds of conversations. But every now and something just trips over and I can't help myself.

    I know only one real "Independent" and that is my Dad. And only one real Democrat besides me and that is my sister.

    The rest of the people I know are the type that say "ah who the hell cares" and never vote.

    And my Mom and Dad (both in their eighties and former Republicans) have become so disillusioned they plan to sit out the election.

    Sigh. My apologies to those who found this diary a downer. I did too, I guess.

    But not for a minute will I give in to this stuff. Not while I have breath in my body. Just makes me tired, some days haha.

    And to G2geek: funny you should mention 9/11 truthers - the only one I know is, well, me haha. I don't bring it up here out of respect for Kos, as I know well it's a fringe position, and, Kos is right, that discussion is not useful here, and maybe detrimental to what this site is trying to accomplish.

    So yeah I guess I could counter my friend's crazy with an equal amount of crazy :)  But I don't expect to change anybody's mind. Just depressed that I live too close for comfort to Michelle Bachmann's district, I guess.

    But please don't anybody get depressed by this. Keep fighting the good fight. Cheers.

    Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Aug 12, 2012 at 02:54:33 AM PDT

  •  The battle is probably already lost (4+ / 0-)

    It's not the wording of her replies, but the simpering-sweet demeanor you describe that convinces me.  I remember from old psych and marketing courses that 70%+ of human communication is actually nonverbal.  Your friend - and I do not say for a moment that she is not your friend - is effectively treating you like a very young child when you have these discussions.  That gives her the excuse not to take anything you say seriously, despite the fact that (at least by your own account) you are substantially more informed on the ACA than she is.  The condescension in her manner probably indicates that her mind is completely locked into its current attitudes and opinions (which are based on emotion, not data) and she is only engaging in these discussions to "humor you."

    For the record, you may think you handled the situation poorly (you mention becoming quite angry), but I think you did well.  You did by my standards if you're still speaking to this person.  For my own part, I ended a friendship of 4+ years over political differences (though to be fair this person was saying Muslims founded the Third Reich and Obama was part of the same cabal, stuff like that).  Also, though other (personal) matters were involved, political discussion was also one of the factors that caused me to stop talking to my last living uncle.  So if you can just put the issue off  the table and at least still be friends, you're doing better than you think.

    I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to talk any more with her though, about anything.  Smarminess and contrariness I can handle - I am often smarmy and contrary myself.  Saccharine condescension on the other hand makes me want to break things.

  •  juca and Jon Sitzman (0+ / 0-)

    very good advice from both of you. juca I will try very hard to convince my parents to actually vote, and vote for Obama. They are savvy enough to see that if he does not get in, SS and Medicare will go away, and I do think they care about me enough to not want that to happen. My Dad makes jokes all the time about thanks for working to pay for my SS - stuff like that.  So there's hope there. And thanks for those LINKS. That's some good stuff there.

    Jon Sitzman, you are dead on about my friend. She absolutely knows what she is doing, which is trying to gaslight me. I have caught her out in it before, deliberately playing dumb about things when she knows exactly what is going on, to other people about nonpolitical subjects. At those times I can call her on it, and she laughs and shrugs and says "well yeah that's exactly what I'm doing - all part of being a good salesperson". (Did I mention that this person is in sales?) So she knows what she's doing.

    I can call her on it when it's nonpolitical and she'll admit it, but if I try when it's political, she just gets more and more sweetie sweetie sweet and condescending.

    The hell of it is that we are good friends the rest of the time. So this person I think is normal most of the time is this other person when it comes to politics.

    I guess I should thank the FSM that she lives in a district where her vote doesn't count (as she constantly laments to me) and not in, say, Michelle Bachmann's district hahaha.

    Old Mamasan would certainly be glad to know that Ronnie's gotten past it. I'll tell her the next time I see her. Stephen King, Hearts in Atlantis

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Aug 12, 2012 at 12:56:24 PM PDT

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