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plantationretreat1

Those who have loved and dated across the color line have to negotiate the realities of race in our society, and by extension, its impact on their relationships. For many, this is done through explicit conversations. For others, these dialogues come implicitly, through gestures, and taken for granted shared assumptions.

But how many folks actually talk about how race impacts their own sexuality, attraction, physicality, or notions of the erotic?

We live in a society that is structured around many different hierarchies of power, authority, and difference. As Foucault brilliantly observed, Power is not sitting out there in the ether, an abstraction that we just talk about in philosophy classes. Power acts through and upon bodies. Certain people are racialized in American society for example. Their bodies are locations of power--and yes resistance. Likewise, certain types of bodies are marked as "normal," while others are deemed "different" or "abnormal."

The "popular" imagination holds many assumptions about particular types of bodies. The black male body is something to be policed, controlled, and feared. It is both envied and despised. The Asian female body is "erotic" and "submissive." The black female body alternates between being fecund, always available, and out of control, while simultaneously being marked as "masculine," asexual, and unattractive. Latinas are "hot" and "sexy." White bodies of a certain type are taken as the baseline for what is considered "beautiful" or "normal."

Ironically, the bodies of black and brown people which are considered beautiful or attractive by the white gaze are judged as such either by how "different" they are from white norms (the exotic or savage) or how close these racialized bodies--almost like impostors or stand-ins--are to the normalized white body.

The very language we use to discuss race, the physical, and the sexual, is a quotidian example of Power in action. But, how are matters complicated when a significant part of a given person's sexuality, and sense of the erotic, is centered on playing with the dynamics of dominance and submission?

Consider the following passage from the Colorlines article "Playing with Race":

Contrary to popular notions, BDSM is not about abuse. It’s consensual and trusting and people refer to it as “play” (as in “I want to play with you”). The point of BDSM is not sexual intercourse. In fact, when Williams recalls her first experience as a masochist seven years ago, she says she met her partner, a white man, at a bar and “fell in love at first sight.” They made their way back to his hotel. “For the first time I felt someone could see who I really was.” And that was someone who found it erotic to be a submissive to her partner.

In recent years, Williams has added another element to her repertoire as a masochist. She’s begun to engage in what is called “race play” or “racial play”—that is getting aroused by intentionally using racial epithets like the word “nigger” or racist scenarios like a slave auction.

Race play is being enjoyed in the privacy of bedrooms and publicly at BDSM parties, and it’s far from just black and white. It also includes “playing out” Nazi interrogations of Jews or Latino-on-black racism, and the players can be of any racial background and paired up in a number of ways (including a black man calling his black girlfriend a “nigger bitch”).

White master seeking black slave, however, seems the more popular of the combinations.

I could not engage is such types of role-playing. My personal politics would not allow it; my libido would not respond.

That is my choice. I do not deny others their pleasure.

raceplay3

However, as someone interested in the relationship between race, politics, and racial ideologies, I am fascinated by how individuals negotiate white supremacy and Power.

Are people like Williams or Mollena more "evolved" and "progressive" than those of us who cannot decouple the realities and burdens of race from their bodies and psyches in the present? Alternatively, could this deep sense of both owning and living in a racialized body, be turned into a location for pleasure and catharsis:

Vi Johnson, the black matriarch of BDSM, has presented on race play at kinky conferences and she believes the appeal is different for each person. “When you’re being sexually stimulated, you’re not thinking that what’s stimulating you is a racist image, ” she says. “You’re just getting turned on.”

So, for some, she says, race play is about playing with authority and for others, it might be humiliation.

Well-known sexuality and SM educator Midori, who is Japanese and German, often presents her theory that humiliation in BDSM is linked to self-esteem. Take the woman who likes it when her boyfriend calls her a “slut,” Midori says. Perhaps the woman internalized the idea that “good girls don’t,” but she enjoys her sexuality. Because the boyfriend sees her in all her complexity, Midori says, when he calls her a slut, “he is freeing her of the social expectations of having to be modest.”

That’s different than having some stranger (and jerk) calling you a slut. The stranger doesn’t see the full woman. It’s similar with race play, Midori says. By focusing, for example, on a black man’s body, while he’s bound as a slave, she’s bolstering his own perception of himself as strong and powerful...

Her workshop demonstrations have included full auction scenes mimicking those of the Old South. In them, she is the plantation mistress inspecting a black man for “purchase.” He’s in shackles and “I slap him on his face and push him down on the ground, make him lick my shoes,” she says, emphasizing that she only does the demonstration after the “psychological” talk.

In the interest of transparency, I am a sex positive person (at least according to the survey on yourmorals.org). In many ways, I am also a bit of a libertine and a hedonist who is comfortable in both exclusive and open relationships. I also have certain predilections and tastes that more "vanilla" folks could find "kinky" or "different." Ultimately, I am just myself, and do not know how to pretend to be anyone else.

I am also full of contradictions and complications as sexuality and the erotic are not neatly bounded constructs (for example, I do not like watching interracial porn where white men have aggressive sex with black women as chattel slavery looms too large in my mind; however, I have no problems watching black men have aggressive sex with white women). I have also dated many women from a range of racial backgrounds: I love women; I love variety.

I share those details not to titillate; rather, because while I am rendering a judgement of sorts, I would not want to sound "judgmental." The difference is a subtle, but nonetheless, an important one.

One of the questions I will be asking Viola Johnson from the Carter Johnson Leather Library when I interview her in the next few weeks (fingers crossed) is how do we separate more "healthy" types of race play from those encounters that are rooted in disdain for the Other and white supremacy. Are these just inter-personal contracts or do these types of sexual relationships gain power (and are made erotic) precisely because of how they signal to larger societal taboos?

If the website Fetlife is any indication, there is apparently a not insubstantial number of people who engage in sexual roleplaying and BDSM using the motif of chattel slavery in the antebellum South. A cursory review of the member profiles suggests that many of these people are white supremacists. This is apparently not a deterrent to the black men and women who want to "serve" these white masters.

plantation2

Here a white "slave owning" master offers some insight on race play and "plantation retreats":

My major kink-interest is in chattel slave-ownership in today's world but following the historical models of 8,000 years of historical slave-ownership tradition (from Greek-Roman through modern day)...along with everything that might relate to it (which sometimes can go pretty far into the realm of BDSM activities, depending on the partner). I'm very knowlegable in the field of historical slavery.

Some of my other non-kink interests include history and philosophy, classic cars, music, science, singing and writing lyrics, architecture, comparative culture, language, reading and counseling..

I get a lot of questions about "Plantation Retreat"...so here are some basic facts:

My goal in creating and hosting Plantation Retreat is to provide a safe and welcoming, private place (and opportunity) for White Masters and plantation slaves/niggers to meet and explore their mutual fantasies. I get a lot of questions and answer many individual questions. To simplify things...here is some general basic information:

The gathering lasts for up to 2 weeks this year, with the main gathering around the 4th of July...folks can stay as long or as short a time as they want (some stay even longer). Masters can stay at the compound here or in a hotel if they want to (as can any personal slaves that they bring with them or any other slave that is ordered to do so).

Slaves arriving on their own stay here and are considered (and protected) as property of the plantation or my personal property.

Slaves sign up for a specific length of service. Slaves can specify what their limits are or that they will serve in any way the Master/guests desire. Sex is not required, but depends on individual choice (as do other activities). Most Masters desire to use slaves sexually in addition to normal domestic services. Some slaves are used only for hard labor. A slave's assignments and duties are based on its experience and ability-level (some require whipping or punishment). Masters have their own king or queen bed (up to 5 available); slaves sleep where they are told to sleep (unless they are ordered into a Master's bed and allowed to sleep there). Normally a slave sleeps at the foot of a Master's bed, but some can be chained or caged elsewhere.

The minimum requirement for slaves is that they be obedient and respectful of all Masters and work to give the Masters and enjoyable time. This can be anything from preparing and serving drinks and meals, doing housework or yard work, to providing sexual relief on demand, to hard labor in the compound (depending on the slave's previously-stated limitations). Slaves should expect Masters to be totally comfortable and free in using humiliating or degrading racist speech in referring to or speaking to mud-slaves. It's not all punishment and misery for slaves...there is plenty of time for camaraderie and playful fun also. Some slaves even form a brotherly bond with the other slaves that serve with them. Masters also form lasting bonds and friendships based on their mutual interests and sharing slaves.

It's just a small friendly gathering of White Masters at my house/compound....being served by mud-slaves as might have been in a modern version of slave-days. one might call it a situation of consensual non-consent/slavery. Slaves can set their limits and the time they will be in service as slaves in advance.... and also what they expect to learn and experience from the experience. The more that a slave lets me know about itself in advance, the better I can guide its growth from the experience.

Backstage racism mates with BDSM, the eroticization of the black body, and finds a place online through a variant of cyber-racism. Amazing. We do in fact live in interesting times.

White supremacy is a mental illness. Western (and global) society is sick with it. All of us, across the color line, have been impacted by white supremacy and white racism. But who are we to judge how adults in a consensual relationship decide to work through its pain and ugliness?

As is per my tradition, here are some concluding questions.

Have any of you engaged in race play? For those of you in inter-racial relationships, how do you negotiate these bigger questions of race and the erotic? If our kinks and sexual predilections are in some way a function of life experience, trauma, early childhood experiences, etc. what happened in the life of a black person who is willing to play a slave for the pleasures of white racists?

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Comment Preferences

  •  How in the flying fuck (15+ / 0-)

    does this diary help elect more and better Democrats?

    Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

    by Cinnamon on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:07:43 PM PDT

  •  Chauncie, you know I enjoy most of your diaries (11+ / 0-)

    I have learned great deal from many of them. However I have real questions about the usefulness of this venue for extended or detailed discussions of the erotic. Just my two cents.

    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:13:23 PM PDT

    •  i was a bit nervous too when i put it out on my (5+ / 0-)

      own site. we generally don't talk about sex and relationships that often. i was really surprised by the maturity and range of the conversation that took place with many people chiming in that  I would not expect to have.

      thus, my sharing it here.

      we talk about race, we talk about gender, but there is so much anxiety about the two, and how people in various ways negotiate them.

      i was asked to be part of a panel discussing these issues--i am going to be the moderator because these matters are little discussed, and i sense, signal much about our "post racial" present.

      i do appreciate you chiming in. if folks like it so be it. if not, no one sees it. if one person learns something that is good.

  •  It's compensation (7+ / 0-)

    That which we cannot do in real life (in this case own slaves), we compensate for through the medium of play. In other words we cannot exercise our darkest fantasies without breaking the law, so we transfer that inner longing to the realm of fantasy.

    We wear a mask. We pretend we are someone else (in this case slaves and slave-masters), we live this world and all its limitations behind for a while, and create a world were such limitations do not exist.

    It is catharsis. It helps dispense desires without the consequences we may face for having them.

    •  that is what i am trying to understand (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Firewalk, mdmslle, Larsstephens

      kink and roleplaying is a way to work through that mask for many, to be free. race play is just something i cannot understand. that is why I shared this. i am legitimately curious and want to learn from others and hear how they process these questions of race, sex, power, and the body.

    •  I get that from the slavemaster (5+ / 0-)

      perspective ( I guess). But how any self respecting black person can play the role of slave and derive pleasure from is something I don't get, and frankly don't want to get.

      We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

      by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:41:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Id be fascinated to chat with them.i (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens, lgmcp

        I find it fascinating. I also am dumbfounded trying to imagine myself doing it (I'm a black woman). And altough I've kisses around the edges of BD with white men, it never had an slave owner/slave vibe. Powerless/powerful, yes. And I've found it fun (although I wouldn't call it sexual arousal or pleasure) being in a mildly powerless position since I'm often in a position of relative power sexually.

        But I never had any lover go over the line with a weird or racist word or bring in an "I own you slave" (literal slave) vibe.

        I would love to chat with the black folk who participate in this. Not sure how safe they'd feel talking with me since they might expect judgement and it would be really hard for me not to, in truth. But I'd love to try.

        For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

        by mdmslle on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:47:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  To some degree, for some, it might be as simple as (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens, lgmcp

        having read about slave auctions (or, y'know, something like) at a certain point in adolescence and grabbed onto the 'naked in front of a crowd' thing, without getting the real context. Early erotic imagery can be persistent... (and then there's another set of issues with novels/fictionalizations eroticizing slavery.)

        Or it could be something like: this is what Society says I'm supposed to be, but I'm not, but here I'm pretending to be... relaxing from the struggle, sort of. Something like the Twilight thing, where the extinction of self has been eroticized and socially revered.

  •  I'm not even sure where to begin with this (9+ / 0-)

    kind of disturbing that people enjoy this kind of stuff. Baffled???

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power" (with snark of course)!

    by dopper0189 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:15:43 PM PDT

  •  Whew. (5+ / 0-)

    I'm all for consenting adults doing whatever.  But this aspect is awfully hard to think about.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:32:06 PM PDT

    •  there are folks who do the holocaust (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, mdmslle, Larsstephens

      "crossing the border" scenarios, etc. i don't know if it cathartic and healthy, a way for individuals to process society inequalities of power, or a reinforcement of said systems and arrangements.

      •  My oldest friend was very involved with BDSM (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vita Brevis, mdmslle, ubertar

        for a certain period in her life.  After a bad divorce she had a lot of guilt and shame, and somehow the kink let her feel or enact it -- and yes, I think, exorcize it, paradoxically through dwelling on it. I was relieved, though, when she moved on to a different phase of life.  

        Forbiddenness and sexuality are so deeply linked in most? all?  human cultures.  Certainly  Eve's apple is central to Western Civ.   Most individuals  confine their transgressions to fantasies inside their heads, where the naughtier the thoughts the bigger the bang.  And it makes sense that breaking not only sexual taboos, but also racial, historical, you-name-it taboos, could carry that same charge.   But I admit it never occurred to me before that certain black people would choose to role-play as slaves.  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:48:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  OK I have an opinion (18+ / 0-)

    WTF? OK so that's a reaction. While fundamentally, I subscribe to it being none of my business what people do in their bedrooms provided it's 1.) Consensual and 2.) both parties consenting are of legal age to do so, this just disgusts me and not from being a prude.

    It disgusts me as a black woman who has been subjected to the hypersexualized stereotyped expectations of my gender / race. It disgusts me as a black person that other black people either don't know their history or spit on our ancestors and debase themselves this way. Not BDSM. If that's what you're into that's what you're into but don't bring the history of slavery into it.

    It disgusts me as a black woman married to a white man who has heard comments made to him about assumptions about our sex life.

    I could go on but you get the idea. It disgusts me.

    As to those asking whether this is appropriate discussion for kos, I say yes, it is.

    It is another facet of the role race and our history of dealing (or not) with race in this country manifests itself.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:35:58 PM PDT

    •  preach--the personal is political (5+ / 0-)

      Race, power, love, relationships, the body, gender relations, hierarchies of inequality, etc. etc..  All of these are political.

      That is why I love Foucault so much--power acts on and through us. It is not some abstraction.

      Why are so many afraid to confront this reality? Is that itself a type of privilege?

    •  It disgust me as a white woman having been (0+ / 0-)

      married to a black man, because I was jugded on the phantasies and prejudices people have about such relationships. And I can assure you, it hurts to be exploited as a living proof of other people's prejudices and phantasies.

      Contrary to you I don't find the discussion appropriate.

      I think this diary plays into the hands of those who dwell in racist phantasies including these ones:

      It also includes “playing out” Nazi interrogations of Jews or Latino-on-black racism,
      No thanks. You can dress up this diary with whatever fancy arguments to justify its benign intentions, I don't buy it.
      •  be happy in ignorance and denial (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        your choice. as someone who has loved across the color line and thinks much about these issues you do not have veto power over what we discuss.

        the Internet is a big place, simply move along. no harm done.

        i would hope that you discussed matters of race in the context of your own relationship. many interracial relationships fail--and children suffer--when said conversations are not had. there is much research to support said point.

        •  How much more pompous can you get? (0+ / 0-)
          i would hope that you discussed matters of race in the context of your own relationship. many interracial relationships fail--and children suffer--when said conversations are not had. there is much research to support said point.
          •  I am not pompous, those are facts (0+ / 0-)

            don't be afraid, i may know more about these matters than you. there are folks who have far more expertise than I do. no biggie.

            do a little research, ir relationships face many challenges. one of the reasons they can be prone to failure is precisely because of how the partners involved do not talk about race and the impact society will have on their relationship.

            those who pretend they are in a bubble are much more likely to not find long-term success and happiness.

            re: children there is a good amount of research on self-esteem, adjustment, and long term happiness of those who are the product of inter-racial couplings. one of the findings is that those children whose mother is white and father is black, and where the latter isn't present tend to have identity issues, are more likely to identify as "biracial," and less well adjusted into adulthood.

            when their father is present the same children are much healthier and psychologically at peace with their racial identities as adults.

            •  ok then, I am back again ... (0+ / 0-)

              I just feel triggered by the last paragraph of above comment. Your perspective is rooted in the American experience of biracial identity issues found in children out of cross-raciial relationships - you say clearly white mother / black father not present - .and it looks like you mean white American mothers and Afro-American fathers, or am I mistaken?

              I want to politely remind you that this is just one small subset out of whole lot of possible cross-racial relationships. Your last sentence is imo a superficial observation. In the world of facts, I can find multiple examples that easily refute your assumption.

              According to what you claim, President Obama should have lots of unhappy bi-racial identity problems. I doubt he has or had. And he is just one example out of hundreds of thousands if not more.

        •  Who is talking about veto (0+ / 0-)

          power? You take me for stupid?

          I have given you my opinion as much as you have written down your questions and thoughts. Why do you imply that I would like to have veto powers. Isn't that a prejudice from your side?

          I hope the research was well paid and I hope that the social psychologists and therapist and psychiatrist make a good buck out of "healing" those, who get confused and potentially harmed, by the very things you try to come to grips with.

      •  It isn't that I didn't have difficulty (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgmcp

        in reaching my decision that it should stand.

        We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

        by Vita Brevis on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 07:20:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't care if it stands or not (0+ / 0-)

          but expecting it can stand because people don't have the guts to oppose it for the fear pf being called trolls, egotistic, naive, and somehow less "researched,  read, intelligent"on the issue he/she is raising in this diary or because they are in "denial" about their own racism within their own relationships and making judgement about them  ... sorry, no, I think he/she deserved my response.

          Otherwise, I could not care less and move on. I post these comments out of principle.

          •  I don't quite understand your position (0+ / 0-)

            You seem to think that "denial" is a bad thing, in the lives of individuals  So isn't discussion the opposite of denial?    

            I'm curious, what do you mean "oppose it"?  Do you mean picket, publicize, protest, expose the individuals who engage in this, or the organization that cate to their proclivities?   Or do you mean, let it continue but only if it goes on very very quietly, without troubling the thoughts of decent folk, opposing mainly the discussion of it in this or other respectable forums?  

             Is the problem doing it, or talking about it, or talking about it in this setting?  

            You question whether the diary has "benign" intentions.  Yet it doesn't seem to me that the diary has an agenda to promote OR to prevent any such practice.   The intent seems to be:  Some people do this strange thing and what the heck does that mean?   I can't see that as harmful.  

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 09:18:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I oppose the assumption that one person (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lgmcp

              has the right or can judge other persons as being in denial of something and judging their "racism they are supposedly in denial of".

              You seem to think that "denial" is a bad thing, in the lives of individuals  So isn't discussion the opposite of denial?  

              No, I don't think so. If the motivation of the discussion is to expose the denial of one person by another, then why would you thinkg that the person who claims that another person is in denial, has the right to do so?

              Fiirst, who decides if one is of denial? Why is one person more adept to make such a claim than the other? The issue of relationship between power, race and eroticity and sexuality is universal, no race, nor gender is excluded, everyone is part of it. The person who asks for the discussion as well.

              As nobody is "without a race" and nobody is "without sexuality" and everybody is "using power" the view points about who is in denial of what, becomes one that is by default leading to be seen as racist by some. I the author doesn't care about that fact, so be it, but I can point it out, can't I?

              Is the problem doing it, or talking about it, or talking about it in this setting?  
              The intent seems to be:  Some people do this strange thing and what the heck does that mean?   I can't see that as harmful.  
              I think what happens in bedrooms, should stay in bedrooms. I think no one person can be inside of other person's intimate relationships and claim to understand them or being entitled to "analyze, research and judge them" in public.

              I think what is analyzed and talked about by people who deliberately talk about those issues with therapists or other health professionals or friends or partners, should stay with those.

              The author can take his questions into real meat space and ponder about its complexities "mano a mano" with whomever he/she wants to and with whomever accepts the discussion.

    •  I agree. And while I admit the very idea (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKSinSA

      of fucking Hitler does not appeal to my interests,
      prurient or otherwise, it can be argued that
      the whole concept of race and or ethnic based
      chattel or property slavery is intimately tied to
      social and cultural norms of sexuality and their outliers.
      Which means it is very political and so:

      "As to those asking whether
      this is appropriate discussion for kos,
      I say yes, it is"
      Why men, even those of power and
      influence, but especially those without,
      seek to be dominated and or humiliated
      is a mystery to me, but to each their own.

      You are a very brave writer to broach this topic here , cdv.
      Taboos and such are not for the faint of heart.

      Thanks for all of your efforts.

      •  I think he/she has fallen in a trap (0+ / 0-)

        may be without realizing it.

        You are a very brave writer to broach this topic here , cdv.
        Taboos and such are not for the faint of heart.
        This is not about taboos. There is nothing brave in writing this. And no matter how sophisticated and carefully formulated and backed up by "research" his thoughts are and no matter if he/she can or can not define racis, it doesn't lead to any clarifications to the issues he/she seeks.
        •  Look, you made the point of your disagreement (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MKSinSA

          very clear. I did not even know that there were such
          're enactment/live role playing' fetish groups such as  
          this until I read this authors story. It shouldn't really come
          as a surprise though, all things in our world considered.

          The intersection of race and sexual politics has been
          a recurring issue here ever since I started reading teh GOS,
          although the social and psychological ramifications are
          rarely only given, excuse me, lip service, in their analysis.
          I, for one, would like to understand the dynamics involved.

          So for me, he committed an act of journalism.

          Fine. You disagree. Move along now. No hard feelings.

          •  I have meanwhile read several of his (0+ / 0-)

            diaries. I have no problem with them and value effort and content. He is a well read and well-sourced writer. I understand his intentions easily and am not opposed to them in any form.

            If the intersections of race and sexual politics have been a recurring issue here, (where is here? dailykos? a specific group?)  I didn't know it. I also don't know what GOS stands for.

            It shouldn't be that a new reader to his writings gets the equivalent of a gradeschool teacher's tap with the ruler for not doing his homework. He has to expect that new readers don't know him or his background and are not part of the "political" aspects of the BDSM scene. I stumbled over this diary triggered by the title. Good writer, good title. Now live with the consequence dealing with "bad" readers and commentators. He asked for them.

            Nevertheless in this specific diary here, he actually doesn't ask a clear political question. He asks personal questions.

            Have any of you engaged in race play? For those of you in inter-racial relationships, how do you negotiate these bigger questions of race and the erotic? If our kinks and sexual predilections are in some way a function of life experience, trauma, early childhood experiences, etc. what happened in the life of a black person who is willing to play a slave for the pleasures of white racists?
            I responded to some of them. I can answer all of them, aside from the last one. I am not in a black man's mind or body and will by default never be able to the same way he is not able to be inside my mind and body.That alone would make the argument that any kind of judgement of the OTHER is inappropriate.

            Nor would I think one black man's potential trauma is the same as another black man's one. Why trying to deduct a pattern to categorize what clearly are personal choices some black men and women made (as well as the whites involved)

            The only other question I can find in the diary is:

            One of the questions I will be asking Viola Johnson from the Carter Johnson Leather Library when I interview her in the next few weeks (fingers crossed) is how do we separate more "healthy" types of race play from those encounters that are rooted in disdain for the Other and white supremacy. Are these just inter-personal contracts or do these types of sexual relationships gain power (and are made erotic) precisely because of how they signal to larger societal taboos?
            Somehow, if it weren't so sad, I could be amused by this question. If there is such a thing as a "healthy" type of race play vs. a "play" that's rooted in the disdain for the Other and white supremacy, I would think you won't be able to separate them and know which is which. The latter one is also an oxymoron. There is no "play"
            involved in the disdain for Other and white supremacy. It's a serious offense and much money making and exploitation is involved.

            As for the second question, the answer for both (inter-personal contract) and (gain power through signaling to societal taboos) are a "yes", but the relevant part for both is that they are a money making businesses and mind manipulating.

            The author doesn't want to make a moral judgement himself ?  Why not ? He also treats the reader, who makes a moral judgement with arrogance and voices disrespect regarding that reader's integrity of thought, intellect and state of mind (ie denial, naivete etc). Why is that?

            I can't find anything in this diary and his comments  that would indicate he might have given a thought about people who get at least emotionally harmed by this kind of response .

            As knowing of the existence of such "retreats" ... I don't blame you if you had not the imagination to think they could exist, but they do in various forms and to me the issue is to know how you can protect people mentally to get impacted by them.

            •  simple point-the personal is political (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens

              repeat, internalize, reflect. then you will understand.

              •  Well, you succeeded, I understand now (0+ / 0-)

                what you meant. I couldn't see the political in "The Retreats" other than it is a money making business by some people who love to stir up shit and exploit people who are attracted to it.

                The nice thing about shit in the bottom of the barrel is that by leaving it untouched it turns into fertilizer after a while. A reason for me to leave it alone. And I will continue to complain of the smell it spreads when stirred up. My trust in nature is pretty strong.

                Peace.

            •  Yes, the Great Orange Satan is Dailykos. (0+ / 0-)

              Even though your user ID is very low,
              which indicates a long time presence here,
              I will accept your claim of ignorance about
              its history and use at face value.

              I also suppose you were absent for the 2008
              democratic presidential primaries? You know the
              one between the two 'firsts'?  Also on election
              night of that same year when rightfully angry, but woefully
              misinformed on the actual demographics and exit polling,
              members of the LGBT activist community here tried
              to blame the passage of Californias proposition 8
              on members of the AA community who also voted for Obama?

              I could continue with endless examples about how
              the issues of race, gender, and sexuality are constantly
              influencing not just policies, but the current electoral
              campaigns, but I have the feeling I am wasting both my
              time and yours. You should simply read more.
              And reflect and ponder, and discuss without
              all of the reactionary concerns and demands.

              This author is renown for not catering to those.
              For that he earns my respect and further consideration.

              One person can not know everything. That is why we
              rely on others to help inform and educate us, especially
              the age of teh internets. I think some I may still avoid,
              not out of lack of imagination, or curiosity, but time.

              •  ok, I got your point, somehow I (0+ / 0-)

                missed thinking about this:

                members of the LGBT activist community here tried
                 to blame the passage of Californias proposition 8
                 on members of the AA community who also voted for Obama?
                Among the many activist issues that one was not one I followed.  
  •  CDV (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    patchmo13, mdmslle, Larsstephens

    I always look for your writings and I went to your site earlier today. You always give me lots to think about.

    You didn't fail in that.

    Wow. You speak truth even if it is uncomfortable.

    •  always trying to share and upend people's (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howabout, patchmo13, mdmslle, Larsstephens

      assumptions. that is how real learning occurs; that is how i have learned about new things; as i confront my ignorance on many matters i look forward to having my priors upset again, again, and again.

      that makes life good and interesting.

      •  May I ask you a question? (0+ / 0-)

        I haven't read your diaries before, so I can't say if I like them or not. I usually don't read diaries dependent on whose race the author is or dependent on what race the issues are concerned with. So, forgive me my in your face reactions. As an author you were a bland sheet to me. May be I will read your other diaries to make myself knowledgable.

        Have you ever been judged, discriminated or humiliated, because of your relationship to a partner of opposite race than your own?

        Have you thought about that these experiences by cross-color partners be different dependent and who is white and who is black (brown, asian) in the relationship?

        Have you thought about that cross-color relationship are not phantasies but real life relationships?

  •  There are so many worlds... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vita Brevis, Cinnamon, Larsstephens

    I didn't know existed.

    Last week, I read about something called "hate rock," in light of the Sikh temple shootings.

    And now this.

    May we live in interesting times.

    How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

    by BenderRodriguez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:40:32 PM PDT

    •  go online there is a whole hate metal (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, Larsstephens

      scene. search the "deep internet," the internet that is beneath this one to see the real goings on. be ready though.

      •  Thanks, anyway. (4+ / 0-)

        I'll stick with Motown and the music from the '70s I grew up with!

        How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

        by BenderRodriguez on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:47:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Are you aware that you yourself are (0+ / 0-)

        manipulated by what you "find in the deep internet"? And are you aware that you just advised someone to get involved in that manipulation?

        •  Ignorance is bliss? (0+ / 0-)

          Avert your eyes from the deadly siren song?  Avoid becoming aware of anything evil?   I understand and accept your repugnance for racist BDSM, but I am struggling to grasp why you seem to think no one should mention it.  

          I suppose there might be a connection to the saying "That to which you give your attention becomes stronger in your life".  Focus on the positive, think happy thoughts, don't dwell on the dark side, etc.  That philosophy has some utility, for sure.  But to properly follow it, perhaps we should abstain not just from discussion of extreme sexual practices but also from strictly political blogs, full as they are of partisan angst, injustice, and wars.  

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 09:28:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  these times are not interesting (0+ / 0-)

      they are destructive.

  •  I guess if they're consenting adults, etc (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vita Brevis

    they'll do whatever they want. Personally, I don't want anything to do with any of the humans that engage in those practices.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:41:36 PM PDT

  •  Tipped for news value (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, mdmslle, Larsstephens

    I've never heard of these plantation retreats.  However, the range and variety of human sexuality never ceases to amaze me.  We are deeply, deeply weird animals, or so it often seems.  OTOH, consider that some animals break off their penises to block other males from depositing sperm, or that cats have little tiny hooks on their penises in order to prevent the female from disengaging.  

    Sex is just plain . . . weird.  

    We are the first to look up and know, with absolute certainty, that the sword we ourselves have forged, is real.

    by Jbearlaw on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:51:35 PM PDT

    •  First, how do you know it has news value? (0+ / 0-)

      As long as you haven't been a customer of such plantation you know pretty little about them and rely on this diary and the links it provides.

      If they exist it's just another dispicable financial exploitation of people's vulnerabilities.

      •  Ample evidence is provided that they exist. (0+ / 0-)

        I think you're correct that exploitation of vulnerabilities is definitely involved.  But then what?  We've outlawed drugs on the grounds that preventing such temptations is a societal necessity -- to very mixed and debateable outcomes.  We outlaw prostitution, again to mixed and debateable results.  Should private parties for kinky sex be restricted also, for instance where racial animus seems to be involved ?  Or again (don't mean to belabor the point, I'm just working my way down the thread) is it just raising the topic here for discussion that is the problem?  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 09:43:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I can't decouple this (9+ / 0-)

    I guess I'm having a similar reaction as you, I just can't find it in my head to get turned on by this. In fact, I think I've just found something that in all ways repulses me completely.

    I used to be a bouncer at a fetish club, and I've seen a lot, and I really mean a lot, of kinks. It was difficult at first but I learned not to judge. I can keep from judging the people who engage in this sort of play but by damn it is trying.

    I had a girlfriend many moons ago who, one time during pillow talk, did her best impression of a Louisiana slave girl and started calling me master and thanking me for letting her in the house. You ever have one of those moments when something you're hearing is so wrong that you can't physically stand to hear it anymore?

    Yeah.

    •  wow, i am not suprised (5+ / 0-)

      our range of sexuality and how we express identity and physicality is so rich.

      one of my rules for dating women who are not black is that if they make racial allusions when we are intimate that is a turn off, a deal breaker.

       then again, the type of women i have been involved with would generally know such moves would not be compelling or interesting to me.

      one day, if i get a publisher that thinks there is a market for my various stories about negotiating the colorline, i am going to be sure to include an evening that ended prematurely over a fight about abe lincoln, slavery, and emancipation.

      beautiful woman, about to go on space mountain, and somehow it took a horrible and bizarre turn.  i laugh to this day about it.

      •  But how do you check (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, Larsstephens

        I never figured her for someone who would do that. I figured when she answered questions and then followed with "...because I'm black" was just her trying to be funny and show me that she wasn't all that worried about the colorline.

        Maybe I read that wrong.

        Either way, it makes for a pretty funny if slightly uncomfortable story, and really makes me want to read some of these stories of yours.

  •  This got me thinking about "Storytelling" (3+ / 0-)

    a movie that came out a decade or more ago.  Spoiler alert ...

    It has two interwoven sub-stories, "Fiction" and "Non-fiction".   In the former, a white college girl has an idealistic and literary crush on her black creative-writing  professor.   They go to his home for a sexual encounter, where she is shocked and traumatized by his insistence that she shout racial epithets as they copulate.  He exerts a cruel power over her -- his message seems to be "romanticize my history at your peril".  The scene was upsetting to watch and seemed really like a kind of rape.  Yet we also see that the young woman's crush contained elements of white guilt, depersonalizing to its object.  

    Then she writes about it for a class assignment, recounting the ugly incident verbatim and presenting it as fiction.  As the professor watches mockingly, her classmates pillory her for what they deem an unconvincing and racist story.  

    I've thought about that movie often.  It was disturbing and funny (in places) and sad.    

    Related to the topic of this diary, but I have to think more about how.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:22:08 PM PDT

  •  this was just what i needed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, mdmslle, bill warnick

    yeah, i know that's an odd lead in to my response, but this diary was just what i needed today.  bear with me:

    1 - it's a diary that is NOT about Romney/Ryan.  i understand and am wholeheartedly in support of making sure we are all well informed and engaged into November (and beyond).  but vindictive calculus!  enough.  i can't breathe under all the fail.

    2 - the diary covers a viciously volatile topic from within the context of the biological imperative to reproduce, but it does so in a way that never wanders into prurience, condemnation or didacticism.  not an easy feat to manage.

    and

    3 - the diary not only manages to address a powder keg without setting it off, but also manages to inform and challenge readers to think - about the human sex/power dynamic and the twisty, lopsided lotus flower it can be, especially braided through the murky prism of race.

    that said, thanks for the time and the courage to write and post this.  i have spent a productive half hour or so musing over your points and what they mean to me, but i'm not sure i have the time/talent/courage to share any of it.  i appreciate the insights anyway.  thanks again

    I will believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

    by patchmo13 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:31:52 PM PDT

    •  thank you, i am glad (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      patchmo13, mdmslle

      that you are open enough to see that a steady diet of romney/ryan is bad for your health and sanity.

      please do share your thoughts, i bet they are very insightful and would contribute much to our learning together.

      •  ok. maybe a little... (poss. trigger) (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mortifyd, mdmslle, lgmcp

        while my contemplation of this doesn't really include the racial element, it definitely speaks to the power element of your diary.

        there have been times when it was necessary to say, "Being molested didn't make me gay, just kinky." to fend off the fallacy that boys molested by men are somehow more likely to "turn out" gay.  the sharpness of the retort is meant to jolt the person out of their comfort with making such a baseless and unsupported claim.

        but the "kinky" part of it, at least for me, is true.  at least as far as my nonscientific, total layman's understanding of my own sexuality goes.  there is a scene from Christopher Rice's second novel (the title eludes me) where a promiscuous college student is having sex with a young lady.  at one point he whispers, "this is just like it was with your uncle, right?"  and the young lady has an intense orgasm.

        so, the BDSM angle, from inside my head, does a few things.  taking the role of the submissive in play like this, can be cathartic in that a similar situation is played out but the power has been inverted (the sub has the power).  it has helped with trigger events to wear the jagged edges down to manageable levels by adding other mental pictures and other emotional options from within.

        by reimagining the conditions by which my power was stolen in a way that is safe, controlled and positive, i get to reassert my basic right to be the sole authority of what happens to my body.  so i can see how roleplaying such a powerfully, emotionally charged situation with strict controls and safeguards could have a cathartic effect when played out within other paradigms (e.g. race) than power.

        I will believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

        by patchmo13 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:33:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Is there such a Fetish as sharing one's own (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    historys mysteries

    fetish?

    Romney is George W. Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:48:38 PM PDT

  •  "Race play" would be a total deal-breaker for me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, Vita Brevis, mdmslle

    Decades ago I was a young Asian woman with the figure of petite-sized pinup girl Bernie Dexter.  I was also an Ivy-educated "Iron Butterfly" scion of a ruling dynasty.  Even so, I was really put off by the insistence of non-Asian* men (mostly, but not just whites unfortunately) on objectifying me.  No white man apparently could ever be too broke, old or ugly to aspire to me, it seemed.   On some level, Western men are conditioned to see all Asian women as some sort of prostitute.  My theory is that it's because in the old days, Western men would not have been allowed to meet respectable Asian women, only "bar girls" or other "fallen" women.  This would be especially true for military personnel.    As all prostitutes everywhere will do whatever the customers pay for, voila! total submission.  IRL, we're more like the TV trope "Silk Hiding Steel".

    For awhile the only men I would spend any time with were gay, because I could trust them to be my friends.   I wore very severely-tailored, modest but very expensive clothing to project extreme gravitas, which did discourage most of the jerks.  Powerful, intellectual women terrify them, or as a frenemy said, "just be yourself."  Only in my late forties did I wear body-conscious clothing again and join a burlesque troupe to reclaim my right to manage my own image.  

    Still, if anyone were to mention the "G-word" to me, he would regret it promptly and deeply.  My {Jewish} husband, who lived in my ancestral homeland  and speaks the language, would never make that mistake.

    *Asian men can recognize that I'm a "lady."  Not that anyone should be treated as a prostitute unless she says she is one, and even then respect is due to her as a human being.  

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold...The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity" -W.B. Yeats

    by LucyandByron on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 04:00:28 PM PDT

  •  it's like rape. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mdmslle, lgmcp

    Plenty of people fetishize that, and their personal politics being antithetical is something they set aside for an hour.
    A lot of times racism and understanding can feel so weighty and oppressive that it's a relief to revert to ancient stereotypes. The bedroom is the one place where nothing is off limots, where we exposr ourselves completely.  A lot of dominant people want to submit andin bed and vice versa. Embracing a disgusting dehumanizing stereotype can free your mind and body to do things you never tried before.

    Hope that answers that.

    •  trust me, i get kink and bdsm (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp

      i just don't get how one can play around with racism, the holocaust or the like. i wonder what fanon would say about these folks and internalized hatred.

      •  You get bdsm? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mdmslle

        You do know that they get off on pretending to be slaves,  right?

        I don't think everybody gets to choose their kinks. Some people are into rape and they hate their own fantasies. But if you can understand how people might debase themselves in gender role play, i don't see why race or any other power dynamic couldn't be similarly fetishized.

        I mean, some folks dig poop. Some dig feet. It's a big crazy world, and the brains a hell of a thing.

        Snarka snarka snarka!

        by Hunter Huxley on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:20:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i get "getting off" i am trying to understand how (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hunter Huxley, mdmslle

          race play relates to the broader issues of race, history, power, and the like. how do we establish boundaries? are these black folk self-hating, internalizing white supremacy, adapting to a society that devalues them?

          the personal is political, what are the politics of the folks--both white and black--who get off on this.

          •  I think politics has little to do with it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mdmslle

            Do you think people with rape fantasies are self-hating women? Or that submissives are against civil rights?

            I can't speak for the people who pose for photographs,  but people turned on by race play are just like every other fetishist - ie no correlation to their public life.

            Snarka snarka snarka!

            by Hunter Huxley on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:37:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i would submit that some black folks who want (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mdmslle, lgmcp

              to be auctioned off as slaves and go to a plantation retreat where they relive/play horrors where millions were killed in the Maafa have some internalized issues of white supremacy in play. I would say the same thing about Jews, Roma, or others who were exterminated in the death camps and then want to introduce that into race play.

              Power, systematic trauma, mass violence messes people up. I don't deny them their pleasure. I am also willing to work through how psycho historical trauma impacts people. Fanon would have a field day.

              •  Yeah, the plantation thing is hard to wrap my head (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lgmcp

                Around. But it seems like a question of scale.

                I get people who are into bdsm in their own bedroom, but i don't understand professional dominatrixes. The whole thing seems too formal and elaborate to actually be erotic, like a sexual Reinnassance Fair.  But i know a small group of people are into it.

                I don't know enough about your plantation to know if it's teal. I have a hunch that it's really just a bunch of paid porn stars. It seems like there would be too many trust issues involved for it to work among strangers.

                But there are large bdsm dungeons out there, so why not?

                Snarka snarka snarka!

                by Hunter Huxley on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:53:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think you aren't taking into account (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mdmslle, bill warnick, lgmcp

                the yawning pit of Weird that is human sexuality.

                I'm a Jew.  Very happy about it.  You know what turns me on sometimes? Nazis.  That's right, Nazis.  

                As a fantasy, it's an exploration.  I can be helpless.  I can be angry.  I can weep.  I can rage.  I can feel all those feelings that otherwise would terrify the shit out of me to process alone.  

                But having that experience let me make peace with things I struggled with as a Jew that had nothing to do with nazis, Jewish history or even Jewish culture over all - but how I fit into it and where as this individual Jew who is kind of kinky and thinks too much.

                Weird, but I ended up a better Jew because I faced up to the fact that some uniforms are simply sexier than others when my identity and sexual kinks are involved.  Got it sorted, moved on.

                And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                by Mortifyd on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 06:04:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  i find it tough to wrap my head around. But (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lgmcp

                I don't necessarily believe that the black folk who engage in this are self hating. I can see room for myriad psychological states and personal senses of self. In fact I could even consider that it might give them a deeper or unique perspective on something the rest of us have only read in a book.

                Could I do it? No. Definitely not. Not as a slave (proper).

                For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

                by mdmslle on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 06:16:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry that I opened your diary (0+ / 0-)

    What turns you on is your business, but those pictures make me sick and I'm wondering if you could move them further down and add a warning.

  •  This is fascinating. I find it disturbing but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vita Brevis, lgmcp

    I totally understand BDSM although I don't do it as a lifestyle.

    I guess the question is: what happens if/when the slave isn't in play? Would those who engaged in the master role behave in much the same way as he did when in play? Or would it be a milder form of master-slave?

    That, for me, would answer a ton of (ultimately unimportant) questions. I say ultimately unimportant because even if they are still raging racists afterward, what? Nothing. They're allowed to be racists. Until they break the law. Heck they're allowed to do BDSM until a law is broken (death or something serious enough induce the sub to press charges).

    While I find the images disturbing as a black woman, I can't find a way to be outraged about it. Shocked, yes. But what? It is what it is.

    As far as interracial relationships: my husband is white. It's never really been a point of discussion given both our very diverse backgrounds. Never felt it was something to navigate.

    For the record, I am not a member of Courtesy Kos. Just so you know. Don't be stupid. It's election season. My patience is short.

    by mdmslle on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 05:35:06 PM PDT

  •  Is not the common porn trope of big, dangerous (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp

    black men dominating white women, in particular the wives of white men, far more common?  Almost a cliche?  The strange turns that sexuality takes when power is involved never cease to amaze me.

    Who said, "That which is taboo is eroticized".

    Where are we, now that we need us most?

    by Frank Knarf on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 06:18:56 PM PDT

  •  I really wonder why you felt it necessary (0+ / 0-)

    to write this diary?  You play into the worst racist prejudices and engage in mind manipulation based on imagery.

    Those who have loved and dated across the color line have to negotiate the realities of race in our society, and by extension, its impact on their relationships.
    Have any of you engaged in race play? For those of you in inter-racial relationships, how do you negotiate these bigger questions of race and the erotic?
    As someone who has loved and dated and married and divorced across the color line and raised the off-spring product of such a relationship, I can assure you, I don't PLAY with RACE, in no form and shape, and I don't negotiate ANYTHING and last thing I would do, is to share with anyone the impact of the realities of race in this society on such a relationship, let alone my own. Your question is offensive to me. It's also one I consider racist.

    If someone would approach me in real life to discuss the questions you raise in this diary (and they have), I would let you hang dry, make you feel uncomfortable and leave the conversation to yourself. Here I simply tell you to negotiate whatever you think there is to negotiate with yourself.

    I would ask you to go with this dairy somewhere else..

    To make it crystal clear, the last thing people who live across the color lines, is crap like this. Diaries like this are "the realities of race relations in society - ie the phantasies in people's minds about those relationships" we definitely don't need. The issues are constructed for a purpose. Ask yourself which purpose does your diary have?

    I feel really stupid to even have read this diary 3/4 through and regret having read it, even more to have written this comment.

    Plantation Retreat - how much does a 14 day indulgence in racist sex phantasies cost? I guess its a good business plan. Are you promoting it? You might get rich. Go for it. Just not here. O.K.

    •  you are trolling and very moved so i will take (0+ / 0-)

      the bait.

      you need to read a bit more, much more carefully.

      "As someone who has loved and dated and married and divorced across the color line and raised the off-spring product of such a relationship, I can assure you, I don't PLAY with RACE, in no form and shape, and I don't negotiate ANYTHING and last thing I would do, is to share with anyone the impact of the realities of race in this society on such a relationship, let alone my own. Your question is offensive to me. It's also one I consider racist."

      this passage wreaks of so much egotism, naivete, and denial about the realities of white supremacy in this society and other arrangements of power that it must be written in jest.

      are you kidding with this tripe? as you read other things I have written you will quickly see that i don't care about anyone's approval or feelings. you also cannot define racism.

      "If someone would approach me in real life to discuss the questions you raise in this diary (and they have), I would let you hang dry, make you feel uncomfortable and leave the conversation to yourself. Here I simply tell you to negotiate whatever you think there is to negotiate with yourself."

      You wouldn't want to go one on one with many in person or in public; it would not be a good scene. Trust me; you would be mighty hurt and upset afterwards. If this is your A game you would be sorely and hugely outmatched.

      Calm down and go meditate. Then come back and we can chat again.

      •  jest ? - egotism? - ok. I return your advice (0+ / 0-)

        expressed in your last sentence to yourself. I have no intention to chat with you any further. It was never a chat to begin with.

        his passage wreaks of so much egotism, naivete, and denial about the realities of white supremacy in this society and other arrangements of power that it must be written in jest.
        •  you are afraid and cannot offer a fair rebuttal (0+ / 0-)

          why are you reacting so emotionally and not intellectually or critically?

          •  because I am not an intellectual - (0+ / 0-)

            and I can't think critically  - and - usually - the issues you are discussing in your diary and try to figure out - are highly emotional and certainly very intimate to any person involved, including yourself.

            You want to deny me my emotions? Good luck with that. I have them as much as you do. We came to the world with 'em and as far as I can see, we die with 'em and no intellectualism will be able to get rid of them. And to not care for emotions of others is ... well, you think about, what it is.

            •  emotions are great, passions are wonderful (0+ / 0-)

              but they cannot be substitutes for empirical rigor and the world of facts. you can "feel" whatever you like; it does not mean that your feelings trump social reality. your personal experiences are interesting but they do not trump the standing evidence about a social phenomenon.

              one of the signs of normal psychological development in children is at an early age they learn that by covering their eyes that the other people in the room are not in fact disappearing.

              unfortunately, there are many adults who have not reached such a  basic developmental stage of the ego.

              •  substitute? (0+ / 0-)
                but they cannot be substitutes for empirical rigor and the world of facts
                you know I can walk and chew gum at the same, if I want to, like as having emotions and "the world of facts" nicely side by sid at the same time, nor does anything in my comments show that I expect my feelings "trump" social reality. It's your assumption I do not have the facts, that I don't possess empirical rigor. Your arrogance is adorable.

                OK, I will now return to my empirical rigor I apply to archive the world of facts at my job, if you don't mind.

                 

    •  Surely you agree there ARE impacts (0+ / 0-)
      last thing I would do, is to share with anyone the impact of the realities of race in this society on such a relationship
      and I think I can see how exposing their effect on one's personal life could be too much loss of privacy.   But to share and discuss the impacts in general and in the abstract?  I am having a hard time seeing why that could be wrong.

      As for your imputations that the diarist is personally or financially involved with the persons discussed, he has explicitly denied such.  While you are free to take his denials for falsehoods, to many users here he is well-known and has established ample credibility.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 09:59:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgmcp
        But to share and discuss the impacts in general and in the abstract?  I am having a hard time seeing why that could be wrong.
        Because the issue is never a general or abstract one, it's a personal, private and intimate issue for those, who are involved.
        As for your imputations that the diarist is personally or financially involved with the persons discussed, he has explicitly denied such.
        And I don't see where I made such a personal imputation to the author. I hinted to the fact that his diary indirectly might enhance and support those, who are in the business of exploiting the practices for profit on the internet. That doesn't mean that I accused him of being involved in such at all. I just pointed to the "unintended consequence" the public discussion could have.

        The author may have a lot of credibility. When I have time I will read what else he talks about.

        But I have been distracted now from work quite a bit responding to your comments and  I don't think it's helping to promote clarifications about my view points.

        •  No, it helped, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

          Some of your points are still murky to me but on the whole I have a better idea of the nature of your objections.  I appreciate your taking the time to elucidate your viewpoint a little further.  

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 11:24:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Chauncy, I missed you. (0+ / 0-)

    I never grow tired of people attempting to shut down your topics simply on value assessments.  On a site with Pootie diaries which claim they are inherently valuable...to electing more and better democrats.  Uh huh.  

    As a Black Man, a political being,  Chauncy is very valuable to me!  Nobody else is discussing this!

    ends rant

    Now, onto the topic, I hope to contribute meaningfully.

    With my lady wife, I have insisted on a 'politically incorrect' status, so we can discuss any topics related to stereotypes openly and honestly, and I will fill her with what little I know about Black culture so she is forearmed.

    That covers any topics.  She has a high 'squick meter' so she avoids topics on philosophy and polemics when she can, but every so often we veer into discussion she can't resist, vis a vis Gabrielle's Hair Controversy etc, Angry Black Man, Color complex, etc.

    I think the Slave Farm is fine if all parties are consenting, bon apetite.  I have many reactions to it, some are homophobic leftovers from childhood training I have put past me.  Others are simplistic risk/value assessments that may overlook the ecstasies of slaves getting what they need.  That looks hyper dangerous to me; only the masters are guaranteed safety.

    The superiority question...any White present is better than any Black/Sub/Slave present....seems merely a pedantic misunderstanding of BDSM aesthetic, ie, rule from the bottom.  If no blacks consented to be slaves, there would be no party or event.  So who is actually in control?  The Subs.  The unanswerable question is; are these African Americans already damaged by White Superiority Infrastructure?  Good luck with that.

    My lone fear is that in some way, this encourages the old structures of the past, but that fear isn't really rational.  This is a hopelessly small subculture, verboten by common sense.  Do what makes you happy if nobody is hurt.

    A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me. Frederick Douglass

    by Stance Like Ptah on Fri Aug 17, 2012 at 05:16:04 PM PDT

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