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U.S. Republican presidential candidate and former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney gestures while making a point about children's education at The Latino Coalition during the Annual Economic Summit at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Washington, May 23,
Mitt Romney, mid-whopper.
Think Progress counted 27 Romney "myths" in the 38 minutes he used during last night's debate. Number 13 in their list is the big Medicare lie: that Obamacare cuts $716 billion in Medicare that hurts seniors.

He liked that lie so much, he told it 10 times in 38 minutes.

  1. But on Medicare, for current retirees he’s cutting $716 billion from the program. [...]
  2. This -- we have 4 million people on Medicare Advantage that will lose Medicare Advantage because of those $716 billion in cuts.
  3. I can’t understand how you can cut Medicare $716 billion for current recipients of Medicare. [...]
  4. I want to take that $716 billion you’ve cut and put it back into Medicare.
  5. By the way, we can include a prescription program if we need to improve it, but the idea of cutting $716 billion from Medicare to be able to balance the additional cost of “Obamacare” is, in my opinion, a mistake. [...]
  6. What I support is no change for current retirees and near-retirees to Medicare and the president supports taking $716 billion out of that program.
  7. Second reason, it cuts $716 billion from Medicare to pay for it. I want to put that money back in Medicare for our seniors.
  8. We didn’t raise taxes. You’ve raised them by a trillion dollars under “Obamacare.” We didn’t cut Medicare. Of course, we don’t have Medicare, but we didn’t cut Medicare by $716 billion. [...]
  9. If the president were to be re-elected, you’re going to see a $716 billion cut to Medicare. [...]
  10. I’ll restore that $716 billion to Medicare.
You remember that lie, the one that's been fact-checked into oblivion but Romney won't be shamed into stop telling because it works for them and because they are "not going to let [their] campaign be dictated by fact checkers."

It's still a lie, and the fact-checkers are still calling it out and will be 'til the votes are counted.

There is still the truth here: the cuts to Medicare in the President's plans don't hurt beneficiaries. The cuts will extend the solvency of the Medicare trust fund because they save the program money in the long term. Romney's plan would make Medicare insolvent by 2016, the end of his first presidential term, if he wins. And that does some serious damage to current retirees.

That's the fundamental Mitt Romney: a politician who will tell any lie necessary, as often as necessary, to win.

Originally posted to Joan McCarter on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:20 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  he did, however, explain whay it's not a lie (4+ / 0-)

    He admitted that the cuts were not benefit cuts, but cuts to reimbursements.  In his view, the cuts to reimbursements will reduce the number of providers willing to accept medicaare patients - making medicare less available to both current & future seniors.

    The president had no rebuttal.

    Is this basically correct?

    The Ryan budget - it's the Romney plan, and it's the republican plan for America. Read it and vote.

    by marking time on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:30:20 AM PDT

    •  This (13+ / 0-)

      "I can’t understand how you can cut Medicare $716 billion for current recipients of Medicare."

      That's pretty much directly saying that those cuts will hurt beneficiaries. And it's a lie.

      He did get weaselly and included " Now, he says by not overpaying hospitals and providers, actually just going to them and saying we’re going to reduce the rates you get paid across the board, everybody’s going to get a lower rate."

      But he leaves the false impression that the cuts are directly hurting beneficiaries now.

      "There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning." —Warren Buffett

      by Joan McCarter on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:36:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's playing to seniors that don't own computers (6+ / 0-)

        and don't trust the news to tell them the truth.

        They watch TV and they make up their minds. Watch for poll results in Florida to see if his lies had impact.

        Vote Tea Party Taliban! Bring the Burqa to America.

        by Pescadero Bill on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:46:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but seniors have time to read & talk it over (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pescadero Bill, NeverThere, Loose Fur

          Agreed, Florida is the place to see if this worked. It is Romney's attempt to win Florida (as well as seniors' votes elsewhere).

          Let's hope the MSM doesn't do the he-said/he-said dance -- that's what political liars depend on.

          •  It was Obama who needed to set him straight. (9+ / 0-)

            Last night.

            Too bad it didn't happen. There will be no better opportunity for the President to respond.

            Obama and strong Democratic majorities in 2012!

            by TRPChicago on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:02:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And that lets you off?? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharon Wraight, sethtriggs, Loose Fur

              You have a computer, or you wouldn't have written that.

              now use your computer to write a LTE or to get on a network blog and make those points.

              •  OBAMA isnt allowed to say some things (0+ / 0-)

                If Governor Romney wants to let seniors choose either a private health care plan or Medicare, letting Medicare compete with the private sector. Then will Governor Romney offer medicare for all?

                •  Romney's plan as now envisioned wouldn't become (0+ / 0-)

                  effective until 2017 or some future year. Anyone currently on Medicare can remain if they can find a Dr. to treat them.

                  It's a premium support system adminstered by the government with subsidies to individuals to pay premiums. It's a sliding scale so that the lesser income you have the more you get to cover your premiums.If anyone thinks a politician is going to kill medicare or social security they are nuts.

                  Even Obama said that if these programs are not reformed they will consume the entire budget. So he cuts 716 billion from doctors' bank accounts to provide for his health insurance plan and establishes a board of unelected "officials" appointed by the secretary of HHS to decide of your treatment can be aapproved or not. I have read already of treatment being denied for dialysis and heart tests for people over 70. This is the appropriately labled death panel.

            •  What's your point? "Too bad" - then what? nt (0+ / 0-)
              •  My point: a seriously missed opportunity. (0+ / 0-)

                I don't let Romney off easy on anything. And Yes, we all need to make these points. It's just that there was an estimated 40 million or more viewers watching last night. None of us reaches that kind of audience and can directly confront Romney.

                As for "too bad," am I wrong on that? What could more persuasively contradict Mitt Romney in real time?

                I think there will be more chances, of course, but last night, the biggest and best one was muffed. Better said: ones were muffed. Because of those, the battle might well be more uphill than it needed to be.

                Obama and strong Democratic majorities in 2012!

                by TRPChicago on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:48:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Actually if they have a computer they can (0+ / 0-)

          prove Romney correct. Just google obamacare 716 million cut. You'll have several real world examples of doctors citing reasons why they are being forced to deny treating medicare patients. It's already here. Obamacare cuts $716M from provider reimbursements over the next 10 years.

          If you will just do your own research you can determine who's telling the truth. Hint: it aint Obama.

      •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SpamNunn

        if doctors and hospitals refuse to take more Medicare patients because of the reduced reimbursement, then that will directly hurt beneficiaries now.  As someone who relies on Medicare, that is worrisome.

        Would Romney's plan be worse for me, as a Medicare beneficiary?  Undoubtedly YES.  But lets not pretend that Obama's actions have zero effect on current beneficiaries.

        Terror has no religion.
        لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الل

        by downsouth on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:53:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Medicare Advantage (9+ / 0-)

          is actually seeing a boost in numbers and premiums are staying steady,  and there are still a wide variety of plans.  That's been verified by a couple of studies since the passage of ACA.  So that ends concern about Medicare Advantage, and points out the lie.

          Doctors won't be able or willing to see patients, both versions float around.  Most cuts are not to individual doctors. There are some things to try to further reduce fraud, duplications, etc,  there was an investigation diaried about here just the other day about the former chain that Scott Walker worked with that overcharged billions being bought out by a venture capital group that just happened to include Bain that seems to have greatly increased the earlier fraud.  It is those kinds of billing practices that will bear greater scrutiny.

           Hospitals takethe other hit mostly on readmissions or other charges incurred because of hospital care being below standard.  IE, treating a patient admitted without bed sores, who gets bed sores, won't be reimbursed.  The hospitals signed on to these kinds of changes because they think they will lose less from not being reimbursed on certain Medicare claims than they gain in revenues with more privately insured patients, and more Medicaid money.  If the hospitals ran the numbers and are happy, it is their profits and adminstrators bonuses afterall, then I wouldn't be too worried about hospitals shutting  down.

          Individual doctors have more to worry about if the general medicare payment schedule isn't made permanent with inflation crawlers.   Some areas are underserved by doctors.  In general there is a shortage of doctors in family practise, in rural areas and poor communities.  Some of that will be alleviated by money through the ACA itself for more clinics in underserved areas, chances to eliminate a portion of medical school debt by agreeing to serve in underserved areas.   There has also been an effort by the medical schools themselves to train more doctors, the numbers graduating are going up, and there is also the potential brain drain from other countries to help fill the need.

          Some areas of the country have substantial wait periods, we will see in medicine generally more nurse practitioners and physician assistants to help alleviate pressures to see the doctor.  

          And may I say, if the only worry one has, is, I may be delayed to see my doctor, so I want fifty million people not to be able to see one at all, those people are not Democrats anyhow, and we weren't getting their votes.

        •  Hospitals can't deny Medicare patients (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Back In Blue, opinionated

          They are a major part of their business. If they lose Medicare patients, they might as well close down.

        •  the pundits or some groups will say that . . . (5+ / 0-)

          but there is one reason why 99% of Hospitals and doctors will never stop seeing medicare patients.

          The government pays on time, unlike insurance companies where the red tape is worse than the government.  The government pays the bills on time. Sometimes too fast as we have seen with fraud cases.

          If that wasn't true why would Rick Scott be in "business"?

      •  we all KNOW its a Lie Joan but we cannot (0+ / 0-)

        effectively call Romney out on it, that job had to be done last night by OBAMA and he didnt do it... he let romney put HIM on the defensive... having to answer to the LIE

        THAT is romney's strategy and the one Obama MUST counter in the next debate...  MITT will try to get 'the ball' and keep it while he runs out the clock and steamrolls the ref... he was more than successful at that last night, mostly because OBAMA did not even show up on the field.

        "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

        by KnotIookin on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:28:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If we can cut Medicare spending by $716 billion (0+ / 0-)

        without effecting seniors, why not cut $2 trillion in payments?

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:47:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama cut overpayments for Medicare Advantage (0+ / 0-)

          i.e. Bushie's private insurance companies that were looting the system for an extra 15%. These cuts to insurance companies eliminated waste and the saving were used to increase benefits to seniors. This doesn't mean we could cut two trillion and have no effect. Ryan's cuts would destroy & Social Security.

          Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

          by tekno2600 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:59:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  See, when somebody on this site has to ask..... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MJB, hkorens, Boris49

      Because the president had no rebuttal, which was his losing strategy for the debate, people really don't know if Mitt was actually telling the truth or not!  Even here!!!

      Ignorance is the curse of God; knowledge is the wing wherewith we fly to heaven. William Shakespeare

      by lutznancy on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:48:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama needed to push back DURING the debate (7+ / 0-)

        Getting steamrollered during the debate and then, AFTER you've been flattened, complaining that the guy is a liar, is a terrible strategy.

        Especially because the media will allow Romney and Ryan to lie repeatedly with no consequences.  It is up to Obama to call them liars. The media will not do him any favors.  Ever.

        Please help to fight hunger with a donation to Feeding America.

        by MJB on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:52:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He did push back (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eps62

          Did you actually watch and listen to the debate, all of it? Or just skim the cliffnotes?

          •  He did not push back. He was wimpy. (0+ / 0-)

            "We agree on Social Security"????  What.  The.  Fuck.  Was.  That.

            Letting Romney get in the last word on every topic?  Pathetic.

            He stood there like a timid school kid letting the bully steal his lunch money.

            Please help to fight hunger with a donation to Feeding America.

            by MJB on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:48:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Now, you do realize (0+ / 0-)

              that Mitt has not said anything about touching Social Security, right? Ryan wanted to privatize it originally, then walked that all back in his most recent budget.

              •  It was dumb b/c most voters are low-information (0+ / 0-)

                By immunizing Romney on Social Security, many voters will not dig deeper and will just assume Romney is also ok on Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

                There was no reason at all for Obama to say what he said about Social Security.  That was just another bad mistake.

                Please help to fight hunger with a donation to Feeding America.

                by MJB on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:54:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I did listen, (0+ / 0-)

            and heard some rebuttal arguments.

            But not on this point.

            And, he seemed resigned to always let Romney have the last word.

            The Ryan budget - it's the Romney plan, and it's the republican plan for America. Read it and vote.

            by marking time on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:34:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Obama's brilliant strategy (10+ / 0-)

        In 2008, Obama wisely showed how it is possible to win without getting into the mud with his opponents. While this strategy sometimes frustrates partisans and disappoints the media, it is how Obama manages to maintain his high favorables even with those who disagree with him.

        Romney wanted nothing more than for Obama to get into that mud and allow the debate to turn into a back and forth of each calling the other a liar and questioning one’s honesty. He was attempting to bring Obama down to the level of his unfavorables.

        If President Obama had gotten into the shouting match that some obviously wanted, the effect would have turned off the very voters that Obama is attempting to appeal to. Instead, Obama gave Romney ample space to contradict his previous statements and proposals.

        In the coming days as the fact-checkers disassemble the debate, TeamRomney will have a lot of explaining to do. Already TeamRomney is scrambling to clarify and reverse many of the statements that Romney made to the American public. What will continue to emerge is a man willing to say anything to get elected, which is precisely the image that TeamObama wants to reinforce.

        •  That sounds good, and may ultimately work, but (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eps62, MeToo, rhauenstein

          it's risky. A lot of people don't listen to fact checkers. They just get a feeling that Obama doesn't fight back. The fact is, he can be positive but still very firm and fair. Romney repeated this whopper about $716 billion 10 freakin times last night. After he said it the second time, Obama should have said: "Every independent fact checking organization says your claim about $716 billion in cuts is untrue. You seem to think that just repeating something that is false over and over again makes it true. Now, we can disagree about opinions, but if you keep repeating things that you have been told again and again are untrue, then it makes it hard for the American people to trust you."

          Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

          by tekno2600 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:13:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  team romney doesnt do 'explaining' (0+ / 0-)

          they just repeat the LIE

          Romney said it himself, at the debate

          "i have five sons who repeatedly lie until I believe the lie" or something to that effect...

          when I heard that all I thought was like father like sons BUT that is not what a majority of americans thought...

          by NOT even trying to take the ball away from Romney Obama has weakened his stump speech effect...  how can he be strong on the stump when he ALLOWED himself to be steamrolled on the debate stage

          Obamas strategy worked against Hillary because she tried to, at least, be truthful... it worked against mcCain because mcCain was a sad sack opponent...  ROMNEY is not Hillary or McCain..  he IS a cut throat vulture Capitalist out for blood, this is his LAST CHANCE to be president and he will do whatever it takes to destroy anyone who stands in his way

          OBAMA has to find his inner Samurai or he will lose the election to the empty suit with the cayman accts.

          WE cannot 'after the fact' fight his battle against the serial liar

          "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

          by KnotIookin on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:38:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  When somebody on this site has to ask (0+ / 0-)

        was Mitt bullshitting again, somebody has not been paying any much attention to Mitt's modus operandi.

    •  Most of the elderly already have doctors (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      auditor, eps62, Boris49, NeverThere, ybruti, elmo

      who accept Medicare.  New Medicare recipients will likely continue with doctors they already have who are unlikely to dump them because of a change in their coverage.  Doctors in this area, SE Michigan, like Medicare because they get paid promptly.  The process is cut and dried.  The people who have trouble finding doctors are the state-paid MediCAID recipients.  Doctors have trouble with the chronic changes of coverage policies by the state.  Obamacare expands the development of community clinics which should be helpful to this population.

      Romney went to France instead of serving in our military, got rich chop-shopping US businesses and eliminating US jobs, off-shored his money in the Cayman Islands, and now tells us to "Believe in America."

      by judyms9 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:54:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  as a BOOMER I have to point out that the Dr (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, flowerfarmer

        discussion is a completely BOGUS one

        YES millions of us boomers will soon be collecting medicare BUT without OUR medicare many of the Doctors in America could NOT continue to practice because WE are the engine by which they make money BOOMERS

        it is BULLCHIT to keep saying Doctors will refuse to treat us lol  WHO WILL THEY TREAT... healthy gen xers and their younger counter parts?

        for instance MY Doctor's waiting room is full of people MY AGE and older... if they refuse to treat us the waiting room would be virtually empty.

        I get really ANGRY when someone tries to claim doctors will refuse to treat medicare patients under obamacare... if that were true then a whole lot of Doctors will be out of Business within 10 years of now because the LARGEST segment of Americas population is BOOMERS and we are all going to pay for healthcare with MEDICARE...   sheeesh

        "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

        by KnotIookin on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:46:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's a threat of across the board blackmail... n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

      by unclebucky on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:01:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No. That's false. It's the insurance providers who (5+ / 0-)

      take lower payments. The incorrectly named "Medicare" Advantage program consists of private companies who were paid a 15% bonus by Bush to get into the Medicare insurance market. No surprise, their services cost more than traditional Medicare. So, Obama is ending those overpayments and putting people back on traditional Medicare. The fact that some doctors don't want to take new Medicare patients is a separate issue called "doc fix" that Republicans in Congress have refused to address. But, hospitals will definitely take Medicare patients one way or another, with the wave of baby boomers retiring...unless they want to go out of business. This also has nothing to do with the level of benefits seniors receive. Romney lied across the board.

      Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

      by tekno2600 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:04:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No. The hospitals agreed to the cuts because (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62, stagemom

      they expect more people will have access to medical care.

      I fall down, I get up, I keep dancing.

      by DamselleFly on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:13:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Twenty-seven falsehoods in 38 minutes? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy, AmazingBlaise

      That's quite a load of "bullMitt"!;-)

      "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."--George Santayana

      by GainesT1958 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:33:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's still a lie (0+ / 0-)

      because not a penny of that money was taken out of Medicare, thus extending its life expectancy for several years.

      The money wasn't spent, it was saved.

      I just genetically engineer them, I don't nominate them for President.

      by happymisanthropy on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:54:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. This is correct. Several business publication (0+ / 0-)

      have published articles of real world examples of how doctors are beginning to deny medicare patients and cutting loose those they have.

  •  republicans are using that lie down ticket as well (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MeToo, bontemps2012, stagemom, eps62, Orlaine

    I'm seeing attack ads on television for down ticket races using the same lie. They are attacking voting records of those who voted in favor on the ACA.

  •  Medicare Advantage is a boondoggle ... (12+ / 0-)
    that shovels lots of public funds to private profit-making companies for no perceivable added value.
    Too bad the President didn't say that.

    "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

    by Demi Moaned on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:30:51 AM PDT

  •  Willard's biggest whopper was that, (27+ / 0-)

    "private sector health insurers are more efficient than government could ever be." What a crock. The ACA holds them to an MLR of more than 80%. If you got one of those MLR rebate checks from your super-efficient health insurance company, it means that they had an MLR of less than 80%, that is, your insurer was keeping more than 20 cents of every dollar they collected in premiums. Medicare has a MLR of 97%. Maybe next time he will explain this.

    The GOP ... Government of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%

    by Azazello on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:31:58 AM PDT

  •  Make no mistake (7+ / 0-)

    Lying Ryan will repeat the same lies. Biden will have a chance to set the record straight. I hope he is better prepared.

  •  To Rmoney, lying is a leadership virtue... (9+ / 0-)

    A quintessentially American value.

    The Republican brand: "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich"

    by D in Northern Virginia on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:43:19 AM PDT

    •  Yup. He believes ad campaigns are political (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      D in Northern Virginia, eps62

      campaigns, whatever it takes to get the consumers' money and their votes.

      Romney went to France instead of serving in our military, got rich chop-shopping US businesses and eliminating US jobs, off-shored his money in the Cayman Islands, and now tells us to "Believe in America."

      by judyms9 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:57:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To republicans in general. (4+ / 0-)

      That's why if I suspect I'm about to do business with a republican, that is 'right-winger', I'm on guard.

      I know a) they'll have disdain for me if they suspect I'm a liberal which means they'll stab me in the back repeatedly if given the chance, and b) they'll lie to get me to turn my back to them.

      But that's why they're so effective at capitalism and why capitalism is bringing about the destruction of the planet - historically it's been dishonestly applied and greed-driven by right-wing egomaniacs.

      I hate smarmy republican types.

      Vote Tea Party Taliban! Bring the Burqa to America.

      by Pescadero Bill on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:02:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  See: White Horse Prophesy, above. (0+ / 0-)
  •  And Yet ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, eps62

    "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything even remotely true." -- H. Simpson

    by midnight lurker on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:44:41 AM PDT

    •  yeah, amazing (0+ / 0-)

      what results you can get if you poll mostly white men over 50 who live in the South.

      Next time, I bet they're going to ask minority women under 50 who live in the Northeast what they think...or maybe not.

  •  I still can't believe the POTUS (6+ / 0-)

    let him get away with that shit. President Obama is as much to blame as anyone for those lies, because he could have smacked Mitt down at any time and didn't.

    Unapologetic Obama supporter.

    by Red Sox on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:45:07 AM PDT

    •  Hope a video is in the works (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bontemps2012, eps62

      POTUS can explain this... in his weekly address perhaps?

      But it was frustrating seeing the remarks made by Romney without a "Listen up, you've fundamentally got that wrong and this is why..."

      The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution. Paul Cezanne

      by MeToo on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:50:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  When giving an opponent enough rope.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, MeToo, eps62, tinfoilhat

      it will look like he's getting the upper hand.  All that rope for Mitt and poor Barack doesn't seem to have a shoelace at his command.  

      When we see this play out, Mitt hanging himself with all his lies is going to be one of the funniest campaigns in ages.  I won't be surprised if Romney replaces Joe Isuzu in the Liar's Hall of Fame.

      •  exactly, all the President has to do is catch him (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eps62, MeToo

        in an earlier lie and say, "Well, Governor, which lie is it?"

        yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

        by annieli on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:07:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  really wondering if there was an element of Ali (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eps62

        rope-a-dope, speaking of rope.  Let Mitt punch himself silly with all the fibs and then watch the surrogates scuffle to plug the holes in all of them?  I mean,,,,i hope there was SOME strategy last night...

        I've got news for you. The wealth has already been redistributed.

        by tinfoilhat on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:26:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If this becomes an accepted meme (0+ / 0-)

      President Obama will be entirely responsible. He didn't do anything to refute it. Must have been thinking I need to look like the President, of what, Harvard? Keep it pal and there is where you are going. Get your head in the game!

    •  Romney spewed 27 lies -- not enough time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      to rebut each of them and get out the Administration's message.

      It would have devolved into a furball quickly.  I think I see what Obama did.

      If this was the 3rd debate, I might agree with you, but the trap has been laid.  Romney walked right into it.

      There are a number of venues in which Obama CAN strike back, including the 2nd debate (which will be used to counter the lies from debate #1) and the 3rd debate (which will be used to decimate all of Romney's positions.)

      It will be hard for Romney to defend his moving target positions.  And Etch-A-Sketch doesn't being to cover it.

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:33:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Romney Lies, Your Mama Dies /nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, eps62

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:46:09 AM PDT

  •  what Obama could have said (9+ / 0-)

    that lie, (distortion, untruth whatever you prefer) has been repeatedly debunked and shown to be not tru no matter how often you or your sons repeat it. you're wasting your time saying it, time which could be better spent explaining what you would do, MITT ROMNEY

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:46:15 AM PDT

    •  this comes in the 3rd debate denouement /nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:59:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That should be a video ad (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MeToo

      Start with Romney's statement, "Look, I got five boys. I’m used to people saying something that’s not always true, but just keep on repeating it and ultimately hoping I’ll believe it -- but that -- that is not the case, all right?"
      Then follow that up with a few of those lies about the $716 billion.
      Then demolish the lie.

      Join the 48ForEastAfrica Blogathon for the famine in east Africa: Donate to Oxfam America

      by JayC on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:22:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Romney is losing the debate retroactively. (12+ / 0-)

    Snotty Brown - 2012

    by kitebro on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:46:39 AM PDT

  •  "You people" have it all wrong (4+ / 0-)

    Pres Obama was very well prepared. He's the one with the highest IQ. Obama played it perfectly. Give Romney enough rope and the next debate we'll see the flip-side to last night's Romney. He's his own worst nightmare. Everybody needs to chill the fuck out and give Pres Obama some credit. He's certainly no dummy and aloof like the media is portraying him. The "October Surprise" is coming folks. Just sayin'....

    •  I certainly hope it is a variant of the old (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves" strategy. The Obama camp should use Romney's debate points and turn them back on him; plaster the resulting ads all over.

      "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!" oder "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

      by drpmeade on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:59:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the thought crossed my mind, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      that he had a deliberate strategy to lay low...  for whatever reason and there are some good ones...

      give willard enough rope to hang himself

      create a news cycle of fact checking by shaming the press into doing their job by letting these whoppers go unchecked.

      setting willard up for a major waxing in the later debates.

      i don't know.  

      facts are the first debate has the biggest audience. you tend to get a higher percentage of partisans for the later debates.  i would think that's the one you want to win.  maybe he's got one strategy for the large crowd; moderate, calm, cool, non-threatening obama, and maybe he'll be more partisan in front of a more partisan crowd.

      otoh, he hasn't seem very interested in catering to the desires of his more liberal supporters in the past...

      maybe he's just playing it safe, it is after all his to lose.  he doesn't need to crush willard in the debates.  let'em talk and hang himself is a cautious and potentially devastating strategy.  i think it may be working.

      No System of Justice Can Rise Above the Ethics of Those Who Administer It. (Wickersham Commission 1929)

      by No Exit on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:02:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  But Mittens "WON" the debate (6+ / 0-)

    How the hell can you spend most of the debate lying and win?  That is just insane.

    •  Because the ordinary voters watching, who are (4+ / 0-)

      the target audience -- not Daily Kos members -- DO NOT KNOW what's true unless the man on stage corrects the lies, or at least points out that there are untruths in Romney's statements that need fact-checking.

      So far, the little bit of fact checking I've seen so far is concluding that BOTH lied on various points.

      Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

      by Catskill Julie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:57:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's that and he did a pretty good job of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catskill Julie

        making Obama's first term seem ineffectual.

        That hurt. He had Obama on the run through most of the night. For a guy that's touted as being competitive on the basketball court, you would think he had a better 'killer' instinct.

        Vote Tea Party Taliban! Bring the Burqa to America.

        by Pescadero Bill on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:09:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  in the Princeton offense the ball is held longer (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pescadero Bill

          to allow for higher percentage backcuts paired with accurate three pointers and zone half court defense or in the UNLV variation full-court pressure and faster shooting which will probably happen in debate 3.

          yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

          by annieli on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:14:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He was really off step. (0+ / 0-)

          It does no good for people here to pretend otherwise. An audience of (reportedly) 50,000,000 voters was left to figure out for themselves which of Romney's claims were true. He said them with conviction. What reason did they have to disbelieve?

          But the biggest problem to my mind was that he missed opportunities to pivot off the questions to make crisp points about Administration successes directly to the camera.

          Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

          by Catskill Julie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:58:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's a deeply pessimistic view of human nature (0+ / 0-)

        and intelligence, and apparently one that Mitt Romney shares. He thinks 47 percent of Americans are not only too lazy to help themselves, but also too stupid to say "hold on here" when a fast talking used car salesman says he'll sell them this $5 trillion dollar used car for free after discounts and credits that he can't get into right now because it would take too much time but sign right here first and give me your credit card number and we'll take care of this right away and trust me I would never steer you wrong buddy.

        Yeah, I don't think so. The people who are vulnerable to this kind of sales pitch are already Republicans. Everybody else, not so much.

    •  CNN voters were heavily Mormon. (0+ / 0-)

      Practically every LDS house in the country watched the debates and then voted in the polls.

    •  What? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      You actually believe that the truth will win? Style always triumphs over substance and truth.

      Snarky as that sounds, the general populace shows a great tendency to follow that pattern.

      There is a feeling resurfacing that I felt during the entire Bush/Cheney administration; the only way to get these guys to tell the truth is to do what Cheney advocated:

      Water-boarding!!

      "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!" oder "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

      by drpmeade on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:06:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Imm think 'Batchelor" TV show (0+ / 0-)

      all that matters is the person LOOK good and SOUND good... even if he is the lying skunk your Mother warned you to never date

      "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

      by KnotIookin on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:52:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  VP Biden (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, tb mare, eps62

    has a golden chance to nail Paul Ryan over this. Ryan, along with every other House Republican I believe, voted for the same "cut" in Medicare in the Ryan budget. The difference, as I understand it, is how President Obama vs. Ryan would use the amount saved from Medicare.

  •  And how Obama corrected him: (6+ / 0-)
     
    We can't help you, if you won't help yourself.

    Supporter: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Adlai Stevenson: "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

    by Scott Wooledge on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:48:31 AM PDT

  •  Romney & his surrogates stance on the $716B (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, 88kathy, eps62

    is mostly a lie, but there's one aspect of it that isn't necessarily a lie or at least has some plausibility to it and thus does need to be responded to by Obama & Co. Namely, that because a major component of the $716B (there are other major components, like cuts to Medicare Advantage) is cuts to health care providers and facilities, some of them will, for financial reasons and because the law (I believe) allows them to do it, no longer accept Medicare patients. Which means fewer choices for Medicare recipients and longer wait times and more crowded waiting rooms and possibly less adequate health care for them.

    One, is this true? And two, if it is true, how does Obama propose to deal with it? If he has a good answer, it will kill Romney's attacks on the $716B.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:49:13 AM PDT

    •  Good answer? (0+ / 0-)

      How  about that Ryan's budget has the exact same cuts?

      VULTURE/VOUCHER 2012. FUCK YOU, MIDDLE CLASS!

      by GOPGO2H3LL on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:50:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, but I'd like to take it further (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ybruti

        Tu quoquo is always a stupid defense of one's position.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:53:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a hypothetical (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kovie

          They can't point to anything real that supports it. Yeah, some doctors might drop Medicare, but some other doctors might pick it up for the guaranteed payments.

          That's the free market. Republicans love it until they don't.

          And, of course, the whole reason to eliminate the $716b of overpayments in the Medicare system is to extend its financial solvency. Republicans don't have any plan to do that other than to drive a stake through Medicare's heart and outsource the financial problem to the states.

          Any state that has a high population of seniors should be really taking a good, close look at that. If the seniors can't pay for spiraling health care costs out of their own pockets, it will be left to the taxpayers of those states (hello? Florida?) to either pick up that tab or let granny die.

  •  liar liar pants on fire (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, bontemps2012, eps62

    now its up the the obama campaign and its supporters to state the obvious, this guy is not ready for prime time and make his promises and statements bury his campaign for good, and the good for america.

  •  Fucking lameass Obama (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, bontemps2012, Boris49, KingTag

    couldn't be bothered to nail Romney over the "fact checkers won't dictate our campaign" or hammer Romney for the fact that his running mate's budget has the EXACT SAME CUTS.

    I was yelling at my TV.  Pissed off the wife.

    VULTURE/VOUCHER 2012. FUCK YOU, MIDDLE CLASS!

    by GOPGO2H3LL on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:49:37 AM PDT

    •  i think it may be part of a patient ground game... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NeverThere

      not pleasant to watch, but effective.

      rmoney failed to move the needle, and had a decent showing given that most people were watching in anticipation of a train wreck performance in which he embarrassed himself.  didn't happen translates into rmoney "win."

      however, he did it by lying and the press hopefully will be shamed into some fact checking.  which will drive a narrative of rmoney prevarication.

      i wished and wish to see him demolish rmoney's and by proxy the gop's blatantly dishonest agenda, but, while i personally disagree, i don't see where it would be unreasonable for obama to decide to play it very safe and see what comes out of rmoney's mouth.  he seems to have been doing a very good job of sinking himself lately.

      we'll see...

      No System of Justice Can Rise Above the Ethics of Those Who Administer It. (Wickersham Commission 1929)

      by No Exit on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:08:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's LBJcare and savings aren't cuts you midnight (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, tb mare, eps62

    slasher.

    Hey Ryan, where you goin' with that trans-vaginal probe in your hand

    by 88kathy on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:50:36 AM PDT

  •  Romney learnt from his sons... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tb mare, dinazina, eps62, KnotIookin

    ...that if he repeats a lie often enough, some people will accept it as the truth.

  •  "Now Mitt, you just know that's not true. You (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NeverThere

    can keep saying it, but that won't make it so."

    How hard would that have been?
    Romney would have been reduced to saying, "Is too!" or "You're the liar!"

    NOT answering, even once, most mildly, leaves the impression with casual voters that the claim must be true. Not good.

    Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

    by Catskill Julie on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:53:12 AM PDT

  •  Is it really surprising that Romney Lied? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012, eps62

    That is his routine.

  •  I found this quote on Medicare to be the one that (0+ / 0-)

    the President needs to rebut, because it sounds plausible enough, if you let it go:

    Romney:  But on Medicare, for current retirees, he's cutting $716 billion from the program. Now, he says by not overpaying hospitals and providers. Actually just going to them and saying, "We're going to reduce the rates you get paid across the board, everybody's going to get a lower rate." That's not just going after places where there's abuse. That's saying we're cutting the rates. Some 15 percent of hospitals and nursing homes say they won't take anymore Medicare patients under that scenario.  We also have 50 percent of doctors who say they won't take more Medicare patients.

    He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason. - Cicero

    by SpamNunn on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:55:05 AM PDT

    •  and why doesn't he tie mediCAID to nursing homes (0+ / 0-)

      and the struggle that boomers have right now with their parents care?
      medicaid tied to children and the poor doesn't ring as true with the electorate in gen'l as it does to tie it to the aging pop. needs for convalescent care!

      Give me back my democracy. 50% + 1

      by stagemom on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:14:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A conservative Facebook friend (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, stagemom, eps62

    ...posted this morning about the Romney campaign saying that his plan WOULDN'T keep those with pre-existing conditions from being kicked off their insurance again.

    "If this is true...I will be screwed~" she wrote.  I pointed out that this is EXACTLY what "repeal Obamacare" means, to her, and to kids with pre-existing conditions, and seniors enjoying the closure of the Medicare donut-hole, and many others.

    Maybe it's sinking in after all.

    America, we can do better than this...

    by Randomfactor on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:56:37 AM PDT

  •  Not only did Mitt lie (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dinazina, Orlaine

    he Roved President Obama with his "I have 5 sons who think if they repeat a lie enough it will become truth" - which has actually been Mitt's exact campaign strategy.
    I appreciate all of the diaries discussing the lies, but what are we supposed to do about it? How can we, as engaged supporters of President Obama, fight back? I feel like the biggest opportunity to call Mitt what he is was lost last night - and day after Truth Team videos that only Obama supporters see are not going to combat Mitt's strategy. Feeling helpless - and I don't think I am over the top/overreacting in my disappointment.

  •  So saving $716 billion and strengthening Medicare (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, MeToo, eps62

    is stealing from it? How can we ever control costs if every savings is called theft? By Mitt's logic, if I negotiate a lower price on a car, I just stole money. Actually that's a good thing if I steal money in overpayments to insurance companies and put it into Medicare. But, Romney is arguing that savings for Medicare equal stealing from Medicare. I thought the idea of healthcare reform was to increase efficiency. That's what Obama did here. But, the first time we save significant money, and use it to increase benefits for seniors, not decrease benefits, then the Party-of-No accuses you of stealing.

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:58:10 AM PDT

  •  Mitt Romney = "Snake Oil Salesman" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Orlaine, eps62, KnotIookin, AmazingBlaise

    (with apologies to snakes, salespeople and men) is the meme i'm going with today.

    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

    by kj in missouri on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:58:48 AM PDT

  •  We need a bunch of air horns snuck in next time. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    Get a bunch of people to sneak in air horns. Every time Mitt tells or repeats a lie, someone blasts one and yells "Liar!"

    Sure, they'll immediately be ejected, but there'd be a few dozen more ready for the next one.
    Okay, maybe we'd need more than a few dozen.

    -this space for rent-

    by EsnRedshirt on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:59:28 AM PDT

  •  Last night (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dianamherrera

    What scares me is that just four years ago, the American electorate damn near put Sarah Palin in the White House.  I don't have a great feeling about the ability of my fellow citizens to sort through all the myths in last night's debate.

    How can we have a third party when we don't even have a second party?

    by Eagleye on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:00:40 AM PDT

  •  Well we better both fight it and reframe it..! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

    by unclebucky on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:00:48 AM PDT

  •  Why didn't the President call it a lie? (0+ / 0-)

    "You remember that lie, the one that's been fact-checked into oblivion but Romney won't be shamed into stop telling it ..."

    It was time last night to shame Romney in front of an estimated 40 million viewers. Yet he got away with it again. The President virtually ignored it and all Plouffe could do in his post debate "spin" on MSNBC was to promise more ads.

    Ye Gods, what a missed opportunity. Among many, last night.

    Obama and strong Democratic majorities in 2012!

    by TRPChicago on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:01:10 AM PDT

  •  Make no mistake about it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MeToo, eps62

    ......mittens and ryan et al want medicare to be insolvent by 2016.....it's been their plan all along. they want to do away with one way or another, so let it go insolvent.

    it's the rebublican way, create a crisis and take advantage of it:

    9/11: which gave them the opportunity to start an illegal war and then watch their buddies in the defense industry rake in hundreds of billions. created the largest government agency in history, again creating hundreds of billions of dollars of income for their friends.

    Collapse of the economy in 2008: allowed Paulsen to hold America hostage and give Wall Street hundreds of billions of dollars in bailouts.

    Medicare insolvency: will allows their friends access to hundreds of billions of dollars in services that the government can no longer fund.

  •  It's too bad Obama didn't use this lie as (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aythem

    a perfect illustration of the point Mitt tried to make about his 5 lying sons.

  •  the LIES will be more of a problem (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, eps62

    than the President's performance in about a day or two

  •  For me the big lie in the first 10 minutes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    (in no way shape or form would my tax plan increase the deficit OR decrease the share paid by the wealthy) ... was enough to make me almost run off the road as I listened to my car radio impotent outrage.  

    If repudiating everything you've ever said or done is "winning", then I don't even want to know.  I was astounded by the frankness of the reversals.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:09:03 AM PDT

  •  Obama looked drugged! (0+ / 0-)

    Someone must have slipped Obama a mickey before the debate.  Either that or he had a sudden attack of hypoglycemia.  It was embarrassing to watch.

    •  Well ,Obama does have a day job (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eps62

      and it isn't a minor one.
      I don't think he looked drugged at all, he was actually on point throughout.

      The debate moderation was awful though , and i agree that Romney got away with too much...but then if someone is spewing lies 100 % of the time and you deflect them 40% of the time, i guess people only remember you didn't deflect them 60 % of the time.
      I think Obama decided to use that 60% of the  time when he wasn't calling out mitt, ( and he did call Mitt out many times,review the transcripts) to communicate actual experience and his positions. no that isn;t sexy, no that isn;t a good brawl, no that isn;t a knock out punch.

      so tell, me , what did mitt actually say last night?
       and who would better serve in the office of President of the United States?

      I thought so

  •  "you've been listening to too much limbaugh" is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom

    the proper answer to a lot of the romney lies.

    the 716 lie, like many of the myths, are not possible without talk  radio UNCHALLENGED repetition.

    "that's what limbaugh says", etc....

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and partisan lying by broadcasting sports on Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:11:36 AM PDT

    •  that's a good strategy actually as L. is hated by (0+ / 0-)

      many more than he is liked these days.
      or in debate, preface things with Rove/Limbaugh lies.
      now in foreign policy obama should tie all rubbish to CHENEY for effect!!!

      Give me back my democracy. 50% + 1

      by stagemom on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:19:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  joe miklosi CO CD4 compered mike coffman to limbau (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stagemom

        gh in two different adds and the staffer i talked to told me they thought it was making a difference, and they were gaining in the polls

        use it in the debates and hang limbaugh around all GOP candidates necks.

        This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and partisan lying by broadcasting sports on Limbaugh radio stations.

        by certainot on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:14:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Most important (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MeToo

    The most important issue is that the money wasn't "taken" from Medicare. It was kept in the Medicare trust fund.

    That said, I've written my LTEs to almost every paper and magazine to which I can reasonably write. (on other debate issues) You guys are going to have to write the LTEs on this one.

  •  The perfect ad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    Start out with Romney's first use of this "fact", show it debunked, show Romney's campaign deriding the debunking and then do little clips of Romney using it in the debate.  Close by point out that Romney believes American's are so stupid that they'll believe the lie if he repeats it enough.


    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
    Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

    by KingBolete on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:23:02 AM PDT

  •  PResident Obama was the one who (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    made health care reform a priority
    managed to get at least some form of it passed,along with speaker Pelosi,  even with  an obstructionist, spineless congress and senators

    got it dne

    ROmney is all hat and no cattle

  •  2008 McCain Versus Obama first debate (0+ / 0-)

    According to McCain won the first 2008 debate. Lots of good that did him:

    However, "winning" the debate is irrelevant -- it's just one battle in the larger war of the election. In this debate, Obama clearly won the larger-scale victory towards election, because he succeeded at appearing as McCain's equal in presidential stature and in foreign policy knowledge. Millions of undecided voters saw Obama as looking adequately prepared for the presidency -- a key issue on which many voters were waiting to see how Obama performed. He passed muster on this issue. Neither candidate turned the other's supporters to their side -- which is what the pundits mean byt heir analysis of who "won" -- but we suspect that many previously undecided voters turned to Obama at this debate. That's what "winning" REALLY means -- how people will vote on November 4th -- and Obama clearly "won" the debate in that respect.
          How can we say that McCain won the debate but Obama won the larger electoral victory? Well, I'll make an analogy to my days as a high school wrestler. High-school wrestling matches are scored by "Team Points" -- if you win your match, you gain one Team Point; if you trounce your opponent, you gain three Team Points; if you pin your opponent, you gain six Team Points. My coach gave me an achievable goal: "Go out there and don't get pinned!" I was a lousy wrestler, but I excelled at NOT getting pinned. So at the end of a typical bout, I would be trounced by my opponent, who would be applauded by his team bench, and then I would return to my team bench to even louder applause. Why? Because I had saved my team three Team Points, in comparsion to getting pinned. My coach formulated a strategy that counted on my ability to not get pinned -- and I came through, every time. Despite losing my matches, I made my team's larger victory possible.
          McCain needed to pin Obama in this debate. Obama did not get pinned. Hence even though Obama "lost" this debate, he succeeded ni his larger strategy of gaining votes for the election. McCain will now need to pin Obama in the next two debates. All Obama needs to do is struggle to a draw, or just lose by a little bit, and he will get elected.
    http://www.ontheissues.org/...
  •  other than lies and 'vouchers' and firing Big Bird (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62, MaikeH

    can anyone tell me what Mitt actually said last night?

  •  Anybody who uses that "$716 billion" is a water- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    -carrier for the health insurance companies.  Specifically, for the ones that are being overpaid for taking care of healthy Medicare recipients they've cherry-picked for their "Medicare advantage" programs.

    Putting it in those terms may be a bit confrontational for Obama's style, but I'd love to hear those words come out of Biden's mouth at the next debate.

    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

    by david78209 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:35:05 AM PDT

  •  The constant repetition of the $716b lie (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    doesn't make it true.  Neither does the repetition ad nauseam of the lie that Romney is a caring billionaire, his supporters are not racists and LDS is real religion and not a crooked Ponzi scheme make these true.

  •  I also remember (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eps62

    Romney's claim, early in the debate, that Obama keeps repeating things that are not true in the hope that people believe them.

    A colossal case of projection.

    Speak the truth, but ride a fast horse.

    by Deep Harm on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 09:55:13 AM PDT

  •  Was this not a DEAD GIVEAWAY? (0+ / 0-)
    We didn’t cut Medicare. Of course, we don’t have Medicare, but we didn’t cut Medicare by $716 billion.
    (emphases provided by me)

    Really.
    Smoking gun, much?

    This year, I'm doing something I've never done before - I'm voting a straight Democratic ticket

    by chmood on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:41:47 AM PDT

  •  Rebuttal (0+ / 0-)

    If someone finds a store where they can get the same groceries for ten bucks less, nobody's going to say they're stealing ten dollars from their family's grocery budget. They're just saving money, cutting waste. But that's basically what you're saying here, Mitt. You say you want to trim the waste from government, but when I find a way to get seniors the same services for less money and make medicare costs more sustainable for the long term, you try to say that's somehow stealing. Now I know you're a smart guy, so that makes me wonder. Do you care about the drug companies' budget more than the federal budget? Or do you just think that people won't notice you're twisting the facts here?

    (I know they're not allowed to ask each other questions. The "commission on presidential debates" rules, a 1988 power grab from the LWV, has those stupid rules. So he could use the third person, use "Mitt Romney" instead of "you", in the last two sentences there.)

    Senate rules which prevent any reform of the filibuster are unconstitutional. Therefore, we can rein in the filibuster tomorrow with 51 votes.

    by homunq on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 10:45:11 AM PDT

  •  Medicare Cuts (0+ / 0-)

    I bet I have asked 15 people to prove Romney wrong on this $716M cut, but no one has been able to do it.

    I have read several non-partisan reviews of Obamacare and every on of them agrees that $700-716M will be cut from provider reimbursements. Forbes magazine has a very good article on this. An actual example of an office visit for a sinus infection involving 2 patients - one young and one elderly. The same $200 was charged to the insurer. Medicare reimbursed $54 and the private insurer reimbursed over $100. Link below.

    http://www.forbes.com/...

  •  Yes, Rmoney lies. Now what? (0+ / 0-)

    Yeah, yeah... Everybody who pays attention knows Rmoney lied in the debates. We get it. We and everyone else on both sides of the divide expected him to lie. The big thing we need to be doing now is not wasting so much time braying about it, but putting it out to the public with proof.
    It has to be planted over and over in comment pages in the newspaper web sites, facebook, twitter, web pages of MSM, and even in conservative blogs. That way more llow information voters will get the message.  And we need to get that message proving Rmoney lies out there.  

  •  Are people here really this uninformed? or maybe (0+ / 0-)

    misinformed? There is a world of information and data available at your fingertips if you own a computer. And you must or you wouldn't be here.

    Yes, you will see both sides of an issue. But if you don't understand each side how can you intelligently vote. I guess I'm just being a fool. Since I am an independent voter, although a registered republican I have voted for candidates from both parties. There are still some moderate democrats although they are a dying breed.

    Voting an ideology is a fool's choice IMO. There is no political party in the world that has all the answers and polarizing the politicians and electorate is a sure way of ensuring we make zero progress.

    I know, Obama's cool. But this is not a junior high school class president election.

  •  Not a titan of industry, just of mendacity (0+ / 0-)

    Mitt the Mendacious doesn't call it lying, he calls it saying whatever is necessary to close the deal.  If elected, this pathological liar will make Tricky Dick Nixon look like a saint.

    Some enterprising reporter should dig up the trove of his lies and flip-flops, starting back in high school.  It'd probably become a best seller.

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