Cross-posted from mediadeconstruction.com
In today’s installment of Google+ debates, I took on a Catholic conservative male on a thread about the new study showing that free birth control reduces the number of abortions. Of course, names were changed to protect the identity of the person. As the comments were copied and pasted directly from the posts, only the names have been changed, and any typos that appear were contained in the comments themselves.
Now, I am not going to provide much commentary on the discussion. I am just going to post it and let it speak for itself. I will say this: after hearing Christians whine so much about so many things and pretend to be a persecuted minority, I found this to be both satisfying and cathartic. I hope anyone who can relate feels the same when reading it, and can take away some talking points to use on this issue in every public forum in which it appears. I feel we need to be adamant in forcefully pushing back on this issue with a liberal, progressive framework rather than trying to debate in conservative terms and religious arguments. In recent years, we have seen an narrowing of the discourse surrounding abortion into, "Well we at least need exceptions for rape, incest, and the woman's life." The framework plays into conservative narratives, carrying an implied acknowledgment that abortion is inherently wrong. Not only do we need to push back on that framing concerning abortion, but we cannot allow the same to happen with birth control and contraceptives. For those reasons (and just to share the fun of it), I post this.
Enjoy.
CATHOLIC MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY:
This whole well it "costs more to part the health costs and child support than the contraceptives" concept is irrelevant. I would MUCH rather be forced to pay the allegedly higher cost of the latter because the former violates my conscience as a Catholic, especially in the car of abortifacients.
ME:
+CATHOLIC MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY, this whole "This behavior hurts my Catholic feelings and my Catholic feelings should be codified into the laws that apply to non-Catholics" concept is irrelevant. Here's the thing: my religious freedom involves being free from being forced to live by your religious beliefs. A society with secular rule of law makes legal and policy decisions based on how they effect society, not based on how some particular sects of one particular religion feels about them. That's it. If you can make your argument for how it affects society, let's hear it. If it relies on "Well the Bible tells me..." you can stop right there and save everyone's time. I don't care what the Bible says. At all. Not in the least. And that is why we have secular law. Humans have experienced religious law. It wasn't so fun for any religion (or non-religion) that was NOT represented in those religious laws. So until you have an argument that involves broader social effects and doesn't involve "but my religious feelings will be hurt," you can go cry in a corner with your Bible. Seriously..."sniffle but...I'm Catholic and unrestrained lady parts worry me." Boo-fucking-hoo pal.
I'm pretty sure you can still go to mass, or attend one of the other endless churches on every damned street corner of America, alongside the other millions of openly Christian (and not facing state action or slaughter for being so), so once that ends, we can maybe take a look at arguments about how "persecuted" you are or how your "freedom of religion" is being hurt. But until then...again, cry in a corner. With your Bible.
OTHER GUY:
+CATHOLIC MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY in your perfect little world in your head, that may all be true. But the real world is not that way. Women get raped, addicts & alcoholics get pregnant in drug & alcohol fueled binges, couples break up after pregnancy, teens make bad decisions, people situations change mid stream.
ME:
+OTHER GUY, to that I would only add, some people also have sex for no reason at all. With whoever the hell they want. And they don't want to risk having kids before they are ready simply because they enjoy having sex. Such is their right and they should be free to do so, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes Catholics.
CATHOLIC MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY:
+Stephen Holt Look I never told you not to use contraceptives. I just said don't make me pay for it. You can contort my words into what you want. It doesn't change the facts. Oh and by the way, many of the founding fathers stated in various ways that morality was essential to a functioning democracy.
ME:
You don't pay for it either you fool. Lay off the Limbaugh. Maybe in some asinine, convoluted way in that we are all part of an enclosed economy, but there are all kinds of things I don't believe in that I pay for in a MUCH more direct way (literally, directly through taxes), but I have arguments for ending spending on those activities based on how those activities effect SOCIETY irrespective of someone's religion. You pay for contraceptives in the same way that my employer paid for the pizza I ate for dinner last night.
Oh and by the way, many of the founding fathers were Deists, a few were atheists, and a GREAT deal of them were protestants. And regardless, I live in the year 2012, a year in which slaves are no longer legal, black people can vote, and women can vote, all things that are pretty significant improvements post-founding fathers. Another thing that hasn't happened in awhile: crushing witches under stones, drowning them, or burning them at the stake. Why? Because we don't have religious law. Seriously, I am sick of hearing Christians cry. Oh, and I live a more moral and upstanding life than any Christian I've met. Christians don't have a lock on morality. That you're Catholic, typed the bit about morality, and sent that into the public sphere with no evident sense of irony is just amazing.
CATHOLIC MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY:
Yes morality... The life liberty and pursuit of happiness of unborn babies. You can't neglect the right to life of one person for the convenience of another.
ME:
First, you're changing the subject. Birth control and contraceptives are not abortions (or maybe you don't understand how they work...)
But beyond that, your statement is silly. As long as a fetus is biologically dependent on another human being for survival, it is not an independent being and not entitled to any rights. Period. It's a fetus. Not a baby. It has to be born to be a baby. Or do Catholics not believe in that whole biology thing either?
And I never heard from him again.