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Ok so I haven't posted in a long time but election season tends to bring me out of my ignore the other people in the world shell. I have had conversations with a few people (conservative types) via FB and I just...well...I have no words.

Below are the conversations. Can anyone help me make sense of this? Please.

So this is from someone who I thought was fairly intelligent and compassionate.

THEM i have issues with both of them (Obama and Romney). honestly, if people would open their minds a bit and realize that the government isn't the answer - it's the problem. we need someone who will put things in the hands of the people and get rid of all the federal regulations.. someone like ron paul! but he'll never be president because he's too 'extreme'
7 hours ago · Like

ME  That corporations buy politicians. It's the money on government that is the problem not the concept of government. A good government makes sure it citizens have access to all basic needs, educates it's populace and manages infrastructure. It should not dictate lifestyle beyond don't kill, steal or vandalize. It should also not be paid for by the highest bidder.
7 hours ago · Like

ME We do need federal regulations or companies will make unsafe products, your food will be disease filled and more fraud will exist. Regulations are not bad. I prefer to know that my food is prepared in a safe fashion you know? Check out China for unregulated businesses pollution everywhere etc etc.
7 hours ago · Like

THEM some regulation is good, like you're saying with food (it could be improved 10 fold at least). but what i am saying is that tax-funded government-run services that could be privately run should be done away with. examples of this are - for the fire department or the police, don't expect them to respond when you call. either that or use a "pay as you use it" approach. if you call the police, they print you up a bill and you pay it. it's simple, and the government doesn't get in the way. it's left to the people. the same can be said for hospitals and any other kind of health care - they should all be privately owned and operated.
7 hours ago · Like

THEM  and what i mean when i say, getting rid of federal regulations is this: we need a government that understands that its purpose is to maintain the independence and liberties of its people. we need a government that is run by the people, not people who are run by the government.
7 hours ago · Like

ME the problem with that concept is huge. One the services are much more expensive and the service is so much worse that way. There are towns that have done this. Example you pay for fire protection but no one in your area does. So the company decides it is not code effective to have fire fighters in your area so the nearest station is over an hour away. They charge you a monthly fee and a mileage fee and other fees. Your house catches fire. They can only have the water they have on the truck since there is no infrastructure that pumps in other water. Your house catches fire it takes them over an hour to get there and they run out of water. Your house burns down and you owe then $2000. How is that better?
6 hours ago via mobile · Like

THIRD PARTY PERSON Not to mention the fact that criminals will intentionally prey on people who can't afford police services. Are you seriously suggesting low-income women who are raped don't deserve police response because they should have had the foresight to know they would be raped, and this should have prioritized police protection in their budget? Or that a person who is burglarized for their valuable possessions should then be billed by the police after they respond to the scene, collect some token information, and never catch the culprit? Oddly enough, this system (which you aren't the first to propose) where those who can afford protection are those who receive it resembles early Russian socialism more than what we already have in place. It's funny, because it's touted as a small government solution, but it creates an aristocracy where those with wealth have their properties preserved and protected while everyone else has to fight it out old west style.
4 hours ago via mobile · Edited · Like

THEM sure it doesn't work if only one town is doing it, but if it is a national standard then it could be much more effective. and the service wouldn't lack because there would be competition beat and industry standards to meet. customers are going to purchase the best service at the most fair price. it's just like with insurance against your house burning down. if you don't have that insurance, and your house burns down, you pay for it out of pocket.
4 hours ago · Like

THEM, i never said anything about anyone getting raped and not being able to afford protection. the justice system is set up so that if someone goes to court, but can't afford an attorney, the state will provide one for them. a similar system can be set up with public safety. i understand your point, and it's a good one. all i'm saying is that the amount of entities that are government based could and should be greatly reduced and turned into private entities. private investigators and security guards are an example of this already.
4 hours ago · Like

So why is it with the privatization supporters as soon as you start point out how horrid the idea is they immediately want the government to regulate??? Do they not get how contradictory that is??


ME So you're willing to trust your health and safety to companies who only care about making money. So lets use the cable tv companies as an example. How many tiers are there for cable? If you want premium service you pay right? So cops respond to all types of calls. Do you want to have to choose which level of safety you can afford? Rape and murder calls would probably cost more. Also 911 service would probably not be around. So while your calling your private company do you want to wade through various options wait on hold and most likely talk to someone in another country all while your being mugged or worse? Than what happens if you're on a vacation in another state and they don't cover that area? Now what? Hmm?
3 hours ago · Like

ME That would not work as lobbyists would try to trash the regs like they already. To fix government you need to outlaw companies donating to politicians. Would solve 90% of the corruption.
3 hours ago · Like

THEM  when you sign up for cable tv you choose what you're going to pay for before you watch tv. you don't turn on your tv and then wait while you wade through the options. having standards in place to keep the private entities in check would, ideally, limit the amount of corruption. but, like your idea to outlaw companies donating to politicians, these are all just ideas made by imperfect men and women. no matter what type of government you have, there will always be a "better" solution. we can go back and forth with "solutions" ad infinitum. the fact of the matter is, it's highly unlikely anything will change unless the american people spark that change. if we keep looking to the government to solve our problems we will only be looking to those people who act in their own interests to try to make our lives better - to act in our interests. it won't

HOLY HELL REALLY!! Looking to government to solve our problems??? Yes it is horrible that I want to know a Fire Dept will show up when my house is on fire.

This next batch is from debate night. These are two completely different people, they don't live in the same state and don't know each other but look how similar the argument goes. This is what started it.

THEM I'm almost starting to feel bad for Obama, especially when Romney told him he had no idea what tax break he was talking about even though he's been in business for years.
Like ·  · Share
5 people like this.

ME You do realize Romney is a complete idiot and will further trash the middle class ie everyone that is NOT a millionaire. He's made his money offshoring jobs and closing companies, has never worked an actual job and thinks windows in planes should roll down.
October 3 at 6:56pm · Like

THEM Excuse me, Obama is the one who has never had a real job and has no business experience, he has done nothing for this country except hand out and regulate and raise inflation and raise costs and forced a socialist medical plan down our throats, Obama is a socialist and it takes a very naive person to think otherwise
October 3 at 7:03pm via mobile · Like

ME ROFL you're funny. Romney had the same medical plan. Now he disowns it, Obama was an civil rights attorney etc. how about reading his biography.

Barack Obama Biography
Learn about Barack Obama's family background, his education, and how he became the first African-American U.S. president, on
October 3 at 7:21pm · Like · Remove Preview

ME Obama came from low- middle class roots not a silver spoon, he actually earned all of his degrees and there is NOTHING wrong with making sure everyone has health care. Have you looked at the rankings of the USA vs other countries in health care costs? Infant mortality etc. Other countries that HAVE THE EVIL socialist health care, Or hell talk to Grandma about it. She'll tell you how much better the germans have it than we do
October 3 at 7:22pm · Like

ME Speaking of socialist health care? Do you think Medicare is bad? If so tell all the retired people to go die because that is the most efficient government program around?
October 3 at 7:25pm · Like

Kat Loveland Tell me it right for your cousin  to NOT have insurance because no company will cover her because she has a rod in her back? Is that right? That is a simple question

ME The fact that the United States has the highest infant mortality is not because of a lack of specialists or facilities for neonatal births; on the contrary, America has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada, or the United Kingdom.

THEM You sound just like Obama, there is nothing wrong with affordable health care. What there is something wrong with is forcing people to buy insurance, forcing insurance companies to insure people they might not want to insure, there is nothing constitutional about forcing people to buy a product, and there is nothing morally right about forcing insurance companies to insure people.
October 3 at 7:29pm via mobile · Like

ME  (sigh) Insurance companies are NOT people and therefore have no rights. It's simple , if everyone pays into one big ass program more people can be insured and overall costs go down. It's simple math, that is why Medicare works
October 3 at 7:32pm · Like

THEM And mitt Romney has been a career businessman, Obama has been a career community organizer, all he knows is wealth redestribution and handouts he has no concept of how to runs business much less a country
October 3 at 7:33pm via mobile · Like

ME and THERE is the major fallacy in your thinking. COUNTRIES ARE NOT BUSINESSES!! Simple
October 3 at 7:33pm · Like

ME Governments are here to take care of things like infrastructure, health and education of their citizens NOT to make a profit
October 3 at 7:34pm · Like

ME and Romney's business? PLEASE he ran a company thought bought out other companies and outsourced or found other ways to lay off countless employees. Is that how you want this country to be? Ask Detroit how well that worked. OBAMA saved Detroit and the auto industry and they PAID BACK all of the money PLUS interest. That is a successful businessman. Not cutting costs and lowering standards
October 3 at 7:35pm · Like

ME Romney made money by destroying companies, Obama saved the auto industry. That should make you rethink your premise
October 3 at 7:36pm · Like

ME  Tell me it right for your cousin to NOT have insurance because no company will cover her because she has a rod in her back? Is that right? That is a simple question.
October 3 at 7:36pm · Like

THEM  Republicans have not said that, someone may have said that, not republicans, and no everyone paying into one big pot yada yada yada is socialism, plain and simple
October 3 at 7:38pm via mobile · Like

ME Speaking of wealth redistibution. Since the Republicans taken over the wealth of this country has been redistributed to fewer and fewer people....In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2010, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 35.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 53.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 89%, leaving only 11% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.1%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details, drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2012).
October 3 at 7:40pm · Like

ME  LOL yes they have I will source it for you
October 3 at 7:40pm · Like

THEM It is a simple question and it has a simple answer, its up to the individual company to decide who they want to insure, its not the job of the government to force private businesses to do business with certain groups of people
October 3 at 7:41pm via mobile · Like

ME Ahh so it's ok if she cannot get insurance. SWEET nice to know you care more about a companies right to screw people than your cousin's right to have health insurance. Companies are not people they do not have rights. They need to be regulated since as a whole they only care about their profits and not who or what they destroy along the way. So do you think the auto industry should not have safety standards?
October 3 at 7:45pm · Like

THEM  I never said that, and I believe they have way more regulation then they should, also I know democrats had it but profit is not a bad thing
October 3 at 7:53pm via mobile · Like

ME Never said profit was bad, what I am getting at is that profit at the cost of the environment, people dying because companies are greedy and just want to have the highest profit imaginable is wrong. Would you like more companies dumping toxic waste into the rivers? How about no safety standard on food? Where do you stop ?
October 3 at 7:55pm · Like

THEM  I hardly think anyone wants to give up all regulations especially relating to the overall general welfare of the people and I don't remember anyone saying that
October 3 at 8:00pm via mobile · Like

ME No but you already said you feel companies are overregulated. So should insurance companies only insure people who have no health problems? They don't want to insure people who are sick as shown by them not wanting to cover people with any pre-existing health issues. So if I was unemployed and had no insurance and then found out I had MS but got a job is it ok for me to not be able to get insurance now? Is that right?
October 3 at 8:06pm · Like

ME Regulations making insurance companies cover people who are sick are about the general welfare you know.
October 3 at 8:06pm · Like

THEM No they arent

How can they be completely capable of going from one spectrum to the other? I don't get how they cannot understand the ramifications of what they say. Police fire should be privatized but I never said anyone would get raped or bad things would happen because the government would regulate it. REGULATION BAD BUT the government should care about the welfare of the people....WHAT!!??

I know the Republicans operate on cognitive dissonance but I don't talk to many conservative types so I just don't get how you can actually follow that jacked up thought process to the end. I mean, don't your neurons just overheat with "Does not compute." or something.

I know I am ranting but I needed to just vent this out with those that can sympathize.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Thank you... (9+ / 0-)

    ...for giving me yet another reason to stay as far as possible from Facebook.

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:00:48 PM PDT

    •  One of these people is my nephew which is sad (5+ / 0-)

      Oh well we never talked much anyway. I actually know the other one in real life.

      •  I sympathize. My son is one of them (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chaoslillith, JeffW

        Ryan wants us to be a tax shelter nation.  Such places are two class nations.  The very wealthy, and the servants who wait on them.  Those not lucky enough to be servants live in abject poverty.  Taxes are a necessary part of keeping a free nation, and a people who benefit from the common good.  

        Many places in Mexico used to operate in the pay as you go realm.  If you didn't pay the tax, the road was not paved in front of your house and you didn't get a sewer connection.
         If you didn't keep up the burial tax on your ancestors, they were dug up and leaned against the wall in a local cave, or handed back to you to keep in your back yard. Don't know if those practices still occur but they were in the 70s.  People don't think about unintended consequences like children starving in the street.  It will happen if these extremists come to power.  

        All they can think of is paying less taxes.  We paid much higher taxes in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Didn't really think about it.  The nation was prosperous and had plenty for the poor, in spite of bitching about it on April 15.  I don't get this attitude thats happening now.  How can (m)billionaires be bitching over taxes while they are hiding most of their money offshore.  
        And if they think the regulations are wrong, then get involved with government, don't just try to dismantle it.  It's all we have standing between us and a moneyed aristocracy.  It's the dictators who scream loudest against social justice, or socialism if you will.  
        By the way, as backward as Mexico was with their grave tax, you could still walk into any of their hospitals and get taken care of for free -as a foreigner from the US.  They felt health care was the absolute bottom line fundamental human right.
        We should be so backward.

      •  You can encourage him to keep learning. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chaoslillith, JeffW

        That's a soft enough put-down.  I have nephews in the same boat.

        "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

        by Bob Love on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 10:54:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  They don't know how (4+ / 0-)

    that's what cognitive dissonance is. "The state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes".

    mr. luna is convinced they're hard wired NOT to be able to see anything other than "black" or "white". There's no grasp of the concept of "shades of gray". None. At all. Personally, I can't comprehend how these people get through simple day-to-day activity. Seriously.

    I have a Jesus Facepalm picture around somewhere, I'll have to find it for you...hang in there ;)

    It is time to #Occupy Media.

    by lunachickie on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:11:02 PM PDT

  •  Every Ron Paul supporter I have ever met (5+ / 0-)

    flips out within five minutes of the start of any conversation that involves delving past the talking points and slogans. When you get into the practical details involved with governance and daily life and living in their world by their rules, shit breaks down fast.

    So I rarely engage glibertarians or parse glibertarianism.

    The Movement Conservative mindset of the elite and the rank and file, is about the belief of the elite that their wealth, power, position, and station in life can and will innoculate them and theirs against any societal level crisis or collapse.

    The Rank and File, for all of their bluster about their independence and their guns and being prepared, expect that their OverLords will ultimately turn out to be conditionally liberal. For them. And save them in a crisis. It's a serf's mindset that the landowner will protect them in any societal level crisis or collapse.

    Big Daddy Will Save me.

    Movement Conservatism is all about projection.

    While they damn people who are not conservative as being dependent on Big Government, they think Big Daddy will save them if things go to shit.

    They are wrong.

    And, sadly, if they ever get Cancer or are in a catastrophic accident and their insurance company drops them, they find out much too late how wrong they were to trust in the Corporate Machine while damning those who believe in trying to bring about good governance and Good Government.

    I am from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner wing of the Democratic Party

    by LeftHandedMan on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:13:45 PM PDT

    •  Thankfully for them (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chaoslillith, wishingwell, billmosby

      the ACA that they hate so much will probably save their necks, unless they and their peers get it gutted and torn down.

      They are like people who attack first responders trying to help them, like some idiot who stabs a fireman trying to pull them out of a burning building.

      Arson supporters who damn the fire department for fires.

      I am from the Elizabeth Warren and Darcy Burner wing of the Democratic Party

      by LeftHandedMan on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:16:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fox watchers (4+ / 0-)

    have to be the most confused people in the country.

    They get their daily talking point from the three stooges and then have that point reinforced throughout the day.

    Hannity then explodes over the feedback from the talking point while the pundits desperately try to walk it back.

    Can you imagine how they respond to Romney?  They must wake up every morning asking themselves- What do I believe in today?

    Because heaven forbid they should think for themselves.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:18:11 PM PDT

  •  People are fucking stupid (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Their minds are caught up in...I don't fucking know.  I've had similar conversations with people and they cannot string a logical thought together if you put a gun to their head.

  •  Are those run-of-the-mill idiots, or (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chaoslillith, BlueEyed In NC

    did it take you a while to find them?

    Ok, that's snark, but it tries to express my astonishment at the ignorance. All that stuff was tried before. It's why we do things the way we do now.

    One big irony- the Paulites sometimes talk like the rest of us are so stupid we must have been born yesterday. When in reality the Paulites were, almost literally.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 09:54:27 PM PDT

  •  None of them have thought their (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ideas through.  All of them just think "government = bad" with absolutely no thought.  I'm sorry, but our public education system has failed miserably.

  •  Partisan political blogs in a nutshell. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I know I am ranting but I needed to just vent this out with those that can sympathize.
    Hamsters on a wheel.
  •  I'm seeing it, too. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chaoslillith, ItsaMathJoke

    People are speaking and reacting in numbers and places unheard of. They have these very humorous two-dimensional views of the world best described as "Everything I Ever Needed to Know I Learned from Watching Cartoons."

    To me, it's a larger trend. An anxiety has come over the land. (As well it should.) It is felt everywhere by just about everyone -- and no one knows what to do. They just blurt out whatever they heard lately on the teevee or the radio.

    The content is not important. They're canaries in the coal mine. Instinctively they know that fundamentals underlying the US economy and foreign policy do not correspond with a reasonable future.

    A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

    by Pluto on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 10:26:27 PM PDT

  •  The best answer is "Yeah, Somalia" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chaoslillith, Steve15

    and leave them spluttering.

    There's no discussing an issue with someone who thinks their ignorance is as good as your knowledge. It's a complete waste of time.

    I simply encourage people to learn as much as they can about a subject, then walk away.

    "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

    by Bob Love on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 10:53:17 PM PDT

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