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In an earlier diary I posted the text below. It was suggested by others, admittedly the original diarist who I don't think understood my intended meaning. Let me say first that I grew up here in Utah. I know and love a great many Mormons. I lost several in Iraq and Afghanistan when I served. I'm used to seeing the religious right in demonizing the religion. They protest every General Conference. As someone who lived a block from the Temple and Conference Center in Downtown Salt Lake City the only thing more annoying then the Mormons taking up on street parking is that walking to your car is a major pain in the ass when your being harassed by religious zealots of every other stripe. But lately I've seen a frightening uptick Anti-Mormonism in my fellow progressives and Democrats. So let me say this. Some of the most pious Mormons I know are the most progressive Democrats I know. The culture of the faith and the faith itself are two separate issues.The culture of the faith is very conservative. The faith itself, although it has it's conservative bent is not necessarily conservative, though it's leaders often are. I've made the argument that unless the church begins to moderate and create a space for liberal persons then it will see itself shrink. That being said my statements below are from what I know as fact and if they are incorrect please let me know.

They believe that they are essentially followers of the lost tribe of Israel. That Christ taught the new testament in America to the Native American's who were the descendants of that lost tribe but who then forgot and forsake the teachings of Jesus Christ. Until a blonde haired, blue eyed fraud was approached by an angel in New York and given a new testament of Christ.  

This is why they speak in terms we assign primarily to the Judeo-Christian faith. They refer to Utah as Zion and the land of milk and honey. In fact, growing up in Utah and non-Mormon I was quite shocked to find that my wife (who was raised in the faith but no longer adheres to it) didn't even know the original source of those terms and in later conversations I have found it even more shocking that it is not an uncommon thing.

That being said Brigham Young created a completely separate alphabet and Joseph Smith was killed over his attempt to create a Mormon theocratic state. Something not acknowledged by the members very often is that they effectively acted as a socialist state (I would argue the most effective example of collectivism in modern history) prior to and even after being ratified as a state. They also frequently, in the early years of the faith, would dispatch assassins to confront those they opposed regardless of their status, targeting up to and including Governor's and newspaper publishers (the latter would ultimately provide the catalyst for Smith's own assassination). The names of these men are now known largely by the many places that carry their name in their honor through out the state.  

Now following the death of Joseph Smith the church began to splinter off into separate faiths. Leading to the polygamist sects that we occasionally hear about on the news. Romney's family were sent to one such sect in Mexico after the church officially disavowed the practice (though the church elders notably continued practicing polygamy). The unofficial history is that they were told to keep the principal alive until such a time that it would become advantageous and acceptable for the church to reinstate it openly and publicly. As years passed into decades however it became clear that it would never be reinstated and the subsequent leaders are now more opposed to the idea than, most likely, any of their critics.

The white washing (an ironic term considering the impetus for the white washing was allowing other races to hold leadership positions in the church, specifically black men) of the church began in the seventies. When the church stopped openly referring to Joseph Smith as a divine entity rather then a prophet and instead shifted it's focus to Jesus Christ. More of the stranger elements have been ignored entirely and are rarely spoken of openly by church leaders and even then more rarely do they become the focus of the discussion. Though still a part of the faith, to the average believer, it is no more well known or regarded then Leviticus's admonishing to not eat shell fish. Which brings me to my point, the history of the LDS faith is strange and contradictory and often influenced by the passions and focus of it's leaders. The followers of the faith stick largely to the basics and ignore the many, many rules and prohibitions unless it suits there immediate purposes. But neither of those things are different from the history and practical practice of faith for the rest of us.

You have nothing to fear from the LDS faithful, in politics or life. Their political ideologies run the gamete and though it's true they are largely conservative as a product of the culture of their faith they are too still thinking and feeling people who are as invested in this life as the rest of us.

Romney is not dangerous because of his faith. Romney is dangerous because of the weakness of his character. He is dangerous because his policies seek to dismantle the America that was built by progressives. The America that, when it works correctly, provides for the least of us, protects opportunity for everyone and demands justice for everyone.

To put your mind at ease however let me say this. If you fear some Mormon take-over of the nation. Think carefully. In my lifetime I've seen mormon churches bombed and not a single general conference passes without protest by some far right wing religious element. If you think the foaming at the mouth bigots, who use their faith as a cudgel against the many targeted groups to which their God is supposed to hate and in turn they as well should hate, will take that lying down then you need to think that through. If you think the secularist, who often times successfully use the institution of government to keep it sacredly neutral would stand for some sort of faith take over then you need to think that through. If you think that Romney will align with the hardliners in Israel against the Muslim world because of his faith then you don't know his faith well enough. Romney's ideology is not of his faith. Romney's ideology is of his class.

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's "Mormonism"... (7+ / 0-)

    ...you are going to defend this cult & not even know how to spell it correctly?

    Thanks for the humorous aside.

    "You just gotta keep on livin man! L-I-V-I-N!" - Wooderson

    by wyvern on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 06:52:09 PM PDT

    •  And the exclamation point should be at the end (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crose, janemas, Bronx59, kpardue, itchyredness
      Enough Anti-Mormonism!
      But I think it's a reasonable plea for tolerance. The Mormon religion certainly has laughable absurdities, but so does just about any religion depending how you look at it.

      The overall point that profession of a particular religion is not a key predictor of character.

      "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

      by Demi Moaned on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:10:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Spell "Mormon" correctly, it'll add credibility. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    codairem, teachme2night

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 06:54:16 PM PDT

  •  LOL, I don't fear Mormonism, I ridicule it. (13+ / 0-)

    I mean, of all the laughable tosh subscribed to by the credulous across this poor benighted planet, that Joseph Smith baloney is right up there with Scientology for the utter risibility factor.

    Oh, and the word you are looking for is "gamut".

  •  I'm going to just admit that I didn't read (12+ / 0-)

    your entire diary because I'm watching the debate.  But I'll agree to "enough" anti-mormonism, when they begin recognizing equality for all.  When they stop funding anti-gay marriage initiatives, when they are all inclusive, then I will maybe subscribe to your thesis that mormonism deserves better treatment.

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 06:58:33 PM PDT

  •  Kreeck - thank you for posting this (5+ / 0-)

    We need more religious tolerance, not anti-Mormon diaries. Key Democrats are Mormons. There are lots of reasons not to vote for Mitt Romney, being Mormon isn't one of them.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:00:37 PM PDT

    •  Just for me, why do we need more religious (7+ / 0-)

      tolerance? The earth is not 6000 years old, nor is it flat. "Tolerance" of delusional beliefs is, sadly, an inescapable reality. But that doesn't make it a good thing.

      I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. -John Wayne (-9.00,-8.86)

      by Jonathan Hoag on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:11:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that's pretty rude. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, gregsullmich

        I really tire of the religious vs. atheist wars here.

        Logic will break your heart forever. Be brave. -- The Stills

        by Colorado is the Shiznit on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:14:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, fine. I appologize, but I'm voting for (0+ / 0-)

          the guy who believes in Wotan. Wotan had lots of executive experience, and CinC experience, and anyone who is willing to follow Him across the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard isn't gay but an honorable warrior. Plus, Wotan had a little fire problem at his house, so he probably could use some campaign cash to rebuild. Maybe a dual use permit for a live/work space to campaign from.

          Hey, if I'm voting for someone who has their Invisible Friend's endorsement, I'm going for the toughest Invisible SOB around.

          I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. -John Wayne (-9.00,-8.86)

          by Jonathan Hoag on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 08:12:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I enjoy that we can discuss how the ... (2+ / 0-)

          ... historical and current tenets or traditions of a religion have been--and are--bad for people. When the majority of Mormons are anti-gay and anti-choice, I feel the need to ridicule Mormonism.


          romney200


          Now, having done my duty, I'm gonna go celebrate the Romney "evisceration"!  

          I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

          by Tortmaster on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:02:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There is a difference (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib

        between tolerance of others beliefs and tolerance of intolerance.

        •  Right. I support anyone's belief to be intolerant. (0+ / 0-)

          Crusade/Jihad? Whatever, dude.

          I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. -John Wayne (-9.00,-8.86)

          by Jonathan Hoag on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 08:13:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VClib

            There are plenty of people who can put daylight between their beliefs and their policies. But attacking and marginalizing and in effect victimizing in retribution will not solve the problem.

            Again the problem with extremism is actually the unbending, unyielding belief.  

            •  Okay, how does one decide how much "daylight" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn

              is enough? What differentiates hearing Jesus speak to you from hearing a dog speak to you, a la David Berkowitz? Is it okay to hear the voices in your head as long as you don't act on them?

              Never mind the voices, what if your beliefs are benevolent in nature? "I'm saving you from yourself by keeping you from doing something that I know is bad for you. What you think is unimportant, because I believe. Ever see the movie "Network?"

              I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. -John Wayne (-9.00,-8.86)

              by Jonathan Hoag on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:07:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  is that the clip (0+ / 0-)

                of him discussing how the decline of arab civilization coincided with the rise of islamic rule?

                Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

                by Cedwyn on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:23:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, Islamic rule came first, then the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Cedwyn

                  civilization declined with the rise if Islamic fundimentalism. I think this is what you're looking for:

                  I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. -John Wayne (-9.00,-8.86)

                  by Jonathan Hoag on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:30:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  But Romney's faith... (8+ / 0-)

    tells him that gays cannot get married.  Isn't that right?  Doesn't his faith tell him that women should be forced to endure pregnancies they do not want?

    I think there is plenty to fear from his faith and others, as well.

    •  So do Islam, Orthodox Judaism & Catholicism (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib

      Make fun of these religions here & see how long you last.

      •  I'm not sure what your point is here... (0+ / 0-)

        because it sounds like you are arguing that Mormonism ought to be given a pass on its bigotry because you feel other religions are given a pass on theirs.  I don't see Catholicism given a pass on their bigotry.  Orthodox Judaism is not a political force in this country.

      •  The difference is that Mitt's policies TAKE rights (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        away. Joe Biden's and the president's policies don't.

        When their religion informs their social policy, it makes a HUGE difference.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:53:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib

          That is a problem with the character of the candidate not a problem with the faith. I disagree with the position of that faith but the faithful have every right to believe that and attacking that faith will not change anything except possibly turning potential allies against you. When a candidate proposes a policy, when that church proposes and funds a policy it is the right thing to do to oppose it if you find it morally incorrect but to then turn to ostracize and belittle and victimize that faith and the believers of that faith what purpose does that serve?

          •  perhaps it points to the fact that Mitt shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

            be president?

            202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

            by cany on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:26:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  There are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello

      There are plenty of Mormons who read their faith in the opposite way. The problem is the culture of the faith. I would argue only the LDS can change that culture but they won't have the space to do so if Anti-Mormonism is prevalent on the left.

      •  Anti-Mormonism is not unheard of (0+ / 0-)

             among the religious Right. It's not just the Left.

        The GOP ... Government of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%

        by Azazello on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:22:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please define "anti-Mormonism" for me. n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  I don't think (0+ / 0-)

        there is as much anti-Mormonism as you think on the Left. I think there is more on the Right.

      •  I am not sure whether you are familiar or not (0+ / 0-)

        with the concept of being "in good standing" to maintain the "Temple Recommend", which is literally a membership card to the Mormon temples.

        If a Mormon becomes suspect - speaks against church positions, disobeys key policies, is "immoral" (i.e., gay, etc), then the "Temple Recommend" can be withdrawn.  Church members can and do make reports to the local bishops on "issues" with certain members.

        "read their faith in the opposite way"
        may be fine for those who are "Mormon" and are distant from the church, but if they wish to participate in Temple events, like weddings, funerals, etc, they must maintain the "Temple Recommend," which means they must live as the church dictates and support church policies.

        Having grown up with some Mormon friends (whose parents were questioned about their kids' association with non-Mormons) and various other experiences including a gay Mormon college friend who committed suicide due to the shunning and revocation of his Temple Recommend, I'm here to tell you that it is pure and total bunk that active Mormons are free to "read their faith in the opposite way."

        Yes, they may do so, and by doing so, they risk exclusion and increasing amounts of shunning.

        Your mileage may vary, but you'll not convince me of otherwise in this.

        Now, then, about acceptance of these modern day religions - Mormonism (actually the Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ) and Scientology - as opposed to historic religions centuries if not milenia in age:

        "Traditional" religions have developed a set of teachings which serve as guides through life through a system of metaphors or mythologies (see Joseph Campbell for  volumes long explanations).  The story of Jonah being swallowed by a whale is a metaphor. Some Christians believe they are literally consuming the blood and flesh of Christ while most believe it is a metaphor.  Whatever.

        The fact is this:  modern religious inventions spew "facts" which we know and can scientifically prove are completely, literally untrue.  Mormonism "takes" the legitimacy of Jesus Christ's ~ 2000 year tradition and tries to slap that upon a wild west tale of massive wars, millions of dead, the evil dark-skinned people literally fighting the decent light-skinned people.

        We factually KNOW this is not true.  We factually KNOW that the fish symbols found on Maya carvings are not representations of the visit of Jesus Christ.  We factually KNOW, because of genetics and DNA, that the American Indians are NOT the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel.

        Convincing people of this clap-trap is not "religion," it is fraud and these are teachings of a man known as a fraud. Joseph Smith was a gold digger - a 19th Century fraudster. He instigated attempted assassinations, may have been involved in killings himself, was responsibly for scamming people out of their money ("there's gold on your land and if you pay me enough, I'll show you where it is..." and the digging and digging begins, and continues as long as the money keeps flowing...) .

        You make it sound like he was killed as a result of religious persecution, when in fact he was scamming people and attempting to kill other people who thought the "revelations" to this 18 yo fraudster were bunk and just more scamming. After too much of this Joseph Smith perpetuated criminality, someone struck back.  

        I mean, seriously.

        Comparing long-established religion having a system of life-guiding mythologies to a modern invention of a pile of greedy tenants (as many wives as you like, a year's worth of food in the basement, magic underwear, gold, gold and more gold, on and on, and lets not forget the actual golden oxen in the Temple), and demonstrably, factually, false statements of history seems sorta odd to me.

        Anyone should be free to believe whatever they like. However, group control measures and other social and church-enforcement means are not allowing people to be free to believe what they wish, and especially not to act as they wish.  Believe and faith is one thing.  Coercion and threats of shunning from your family are entirely another.

        Just as everyone is free to believe as they wish, others are free to see cult-like behavior.  The biggest mark of a cult, in my opinion, is the enforced compliance with the religious tenants.   The Temple Recommend and threat of explusion and shunning are very real.  To me, they are enforced compliance.

        I think you'd be hard pressed to find bishops in the Mormon church who actually permit open opposition to church doctrine about homosexuality and any other of their restrictive, bigoted misogynistic belief system.  People who deviate are called in to talk to people -bishops- exactly like Mitt Romney and "given a chance" to change their ways "before it goes too far."

        That's not free belief or free association.  
        That is intimidation and coercion.

        A religion can tolerate discussion, dispute, conversation, variances in opinion.  A cult cannot.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:34:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, there are typos in the above. I'm mildly (0+ / 0-)

          dyslexic, besides being tired after a long day, and having scratchy contacts at the moment.

          Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ - yes, I know the actual name.

          In spite of my errors ("Belief" not "Believe", etc), I stand by what I've said.

          I've seen church enforcement and coercion in action on more than one occasion.  It is an uncaring, and inhuman, cult.  IMHO.  

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:53:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  South Park (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Utahrd, Cedwyn, YucatanMan

    Nuff said

    The struggle of today, is not altogether for today--it is for a vast future also. - Lincoln

    by estamm on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:03:41 PM PDT

  •  But that's different (0+ / 0-)

    Make fun of Islam = Donuted and banned.

    Make fun of Mormons = Top of the rec list

  •  Enough (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, codairem, pyegar, YucatanMan

    Anti-Anti-Mormonism! It's all relative, or at least, that's like just your opinion, man.

    So we're just supposed to pretend they didn't bankroll Prop 8 and everything else because it's "anti"? Go back to your dorm room.

    GOP: The Party of Acid rain, Abortion of the American Dream, and Amnesty for Wall Street.

    by Attorney at Arms on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:06:44 PM PDT

    •  Arguing in favor of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib

      equal rights for all and attacking ritual and religious belief are not the same thing. If you think that by attacking the LDS church you are going to get equal rights for all then I would argue that you are misguided. Opposing Prop 8, as a policy and as politics was clearly the right thing to do but attacking the LDS church's beliefs will not change the fact that it passed and it will not keep it from happening in the future.

      Don't be condescending. It doesn't suit you.

      •  That's a stupid position. (7+ / 0-)

        If the LDS church wishes to insert itself into people's private lives, then they need to expect blowback.

        And this:

        Opposing Prop 8, as a policy and as politics was clearly the right thing to do but attacking the LDS church's beliefs will not change the fact that it passed and it will not keep it from happening in the future.
        Wtf, man. So you just expect the LGBT community to sit down and take it?!

        I don't think so, babe. That doesn't work well for us.

        Don't be in denial. It doesn't suit you.

        Logic will break your heart forever. Be brave. -- The Stills

        by Colorado is the Shiznit on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:37:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No (0+ / 0-)

          and the LGBT community knows they may have the most at stake in practice but that they aren't alone in their fight. I would say that those of us that stand for equality for all should oppose those policies in practice and not to stand against the faith itself. It serves absolutely no purpose except to create a boogeyman.

          •  "The faith itself" required its members (0+ / 0-)

            to donate to the Prop 8 cause.  Where do you think the millions of dollars came from?

            And "the faith itself" maintains a control system over the membership through  member monitoring, discussion and control in order to remain "in good standing" upon pain of exclusion from the temple all the way up to excommunication and shunning.

            "The faith itself" and its entire operation is the issue.  "The faith itself" attacked a group of people.  

            Turnabout is fair play.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:38:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  When I see a JFK-esk statement by Ryan and Romney (6+ / 0-)

    I •might• buy your argument.

    Until then, I take Brigham Young's Theodemocracy very, VERY seriously.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:11:29 PM PDT

    •  You shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

      There is no daylight between religious zealots of any other faith running for office and a Mormon zealot running for office. The problem isn't the faith. The problem there is the unbending, unyielding mindset. Extremism in any form is the real issue.

  •  Enough picking on Kolob and Magic Underwear. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    workingclasszero, Cedwyn, YucatanMan

    Nah.

    Follow Me on Twitter @SmartyFeldman

    by The Swimmer on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:18:30 PM PDT

  •  Unfortunately for them (6+ / 0-)

    when the Mormons thrust themselves into our lives we have no choice but to thrust back. Or else we continue to get steamrolled by a bunch of bigoted assholes. And that goes for ALL religons in my opinion. If they don't want to recieve exactly what they give then they should mind their own damn business when it comes to people's lives and loves.

    I don't have to be nice to people that are destroying my nation.

    by draa on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:19:17 PM PDT

  •  When they get out of my life I will (9+ / 0-)

    It was the LDS that funded Prop 8 in California.

    It is the LDS that is driving the evil policies of Boys Scouts.

    It is the LDS that is pushing anit women policies all over.

    As long as they insert themselves into secular life, they will be my enemy and I will fight them at every turn.

    It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

    by ksuwildkat on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:19:39 PM PDT

    •  Those are all concrete (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib

      examples of policy in action. I would not argue that it was wrong to oppose those policies. I would argue that it is wrong to attack their faith I would also argue that it will do you and them no good to do so.

      •  When the "facts" of their faith are readily (0+ / 0-)

        proven false (all the business about the lost tribes, about the massive land battles and millions dead, about the existence of black and white peoples, etc) then it doesn't do to give a lot of credence to their positions.

        Compare that to the Bible where archeological research continues to find more and more real life examples showing at least some events therein were factual, such places existed, such people existed, etc.

        A fuller response is provided in a comment of mine found above.  Mormonism was a newly invented religion with so many tenants which were and are demonstrably false that it doesn't qualify, in my opinion.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:44:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It was the LDS that tipped the scale on ERA. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      polecat, YucatanMan

      they didn't WANT women to be equal. Still don't.

      202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

      by cany on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:55:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fight fair (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib

      You can fight them at the soap box and the ballot box without assuming the worst about every member or being bigoted. You probably already are, yourself, but I've seen too many examples of hate speech even here.

      •  I dont assume (0+ / 0-)

        Throughout my 20+ years in the military I have had 4 LDS roommates.  My job, intelligence, has the largest concentration of LDS members in all military career fields.  I have actual, person to person experience to rely on.

        Of the four LDS roommates I have had, one was from the "whack job" branch of the faith complete with secret writings on his underclothes.  He was happy to watch violent movies and tv shows but thought even the hint of nudity or mention of sex represented a threat to his soul.  He went so far as to put internet blocking software on his OWN computer (he had no children but his underage wife was pregnant) to prevent himself from "giving in" and viewing porn.  When I asked him why he put more faith in movie ratings by strangers who he had never met than his own judgement he had no real answer.  The scary thing to me was he was a military officer who needed to be trusted for his own judgement, judgement I assessed as dismal.  It was also clear that his loyalty was to the church first, with the Army and the Nation so far behind that there was never an instance that they would move ahead.  I made sure I was assigned far far away from him in Iraq and I made sure that his chain of command knew where his true loyalty resided.  He was the poster child for someone who needed to be fragged.

        My other three LDS roommates and countless LDS friends were not only not like this but openly mocked people like the whack job guy.  The also admitted that sadly the whack jobs were taking over the LDS church.  Whack job was my roommate in 2003.  I would venture to guess that the ratio has moved drastically from the 25% I witnessed.  

        These people are dangerous and RMoney is one of them.  He is, in fact, their de facto leader.  They are evil.  He is evil.  I fight evil.  

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:06:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  All religion is BS. Mormonism more so, since it's (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    codairem, pyegar, polecat, Cedwyn, YucatanMan

    not a religion.  I paraphrase George Carlin when he said, God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, and he needs.....money!  He always needs more money!  Religion is the greatest BS story ever told.

  •  Mormons shouldn't be painted with the same brush (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib

    The intersection of individual faith, religious tradition, politics and institutional churches should be approached in a spirit of tolerance and good will. Just look at Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, both practicing Catholics, who were/are deeply at odds with the some of the political positions of their institutional Church. Do we paint them with the brush of the Catholic Church's institutional positions on reproductive choice or gay marriage?  When tempted to Mormon-bash, just remember that Harry Reid is a devout Mormon.

  •  I don't like people singling (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, VClib

    out Mormons or Muslims or Scientologists for ridicule. It should stop.
    For me every belief that claims there is a being or an intelligence out there that can violate the laws of physicis is just mental. So ridicule all of them or none of them.
    There are degrees of crazy, but if you bet 72 virgins, I'll raise you a burning bush. If you bet me some magic underwear, I'll raise you the walking dead. If you bet me spirits on a far away planet, I'll raise you a marriage with prepubescent girls.
    It's all bunk and the sooner we move on the sooner we can start tackling real issues.

  •  It's not about anti-Mormonism (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, blueoasis, cany, polecat, YucatanMan

    It's about anti-hypocrisy and the central character happens to be a Mormon

    Everyone is crying out for peace; no one's crying out for justice...

    by mojave mike on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:24:17 PM PDT

    •  And (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dogs are fuzzy

      if it ended with taking that central character to task for being wrong or proposing policies you disagree with then that is one thing. Ignoring him. Ignoring his politics and his party and attacking his faith serves absolutely no purpose and is wrong.

      •  Politics is a contact sport (0+ / 0-)

        Your guy's party has called the President a Nazi, a Muslim, a Communist, a foreigner, has attacked his family and threatened his life.  If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then your values are in question.

        Everyone is crying out for peace; no one's crying out for justice...

        by mojave mike on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:42:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not anti-Mormon, specifically.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, YucatanMan

    ..I think all supernatural religions are hooey, not just that one.

    When extra-terrestrial beings make their first appearance on our planet, and ask for representatives of our species to best exemplify humanity, I'm sending a nurse, a librarian, and a firefighter.

    by Wayward Son on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:42:28 PM PDT

  •  I try to take people as individuals (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, YucatanMan, Dogs are fuzzy

    But, if they start to exhibit too much adherence to abstract derivations of reality that require specific elements of unique faith that is all too common among a particular grouping (e.g., Mormons), then they should expect to be generalized in some respects against its associated tenets typical actions.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:42:31 PM PDT

  •  Prop 8, CA. The ERA. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polecat, YucatanMan

    Enough said.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:54:35 PM PDT

  •  White Horse Prophecy cult is another matter. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polecat, YucatanMan

    Romney is up to his eye balls with this Smith product. We've seen two well-documented problems related to this not-official SLCT-denied cult:

    1. "One Mighty and Strong." This has been Mitt's title for 40 years among believers in the White Horse Prophecy, a faux-Mormon cult.

    That title, by itself, is adapted from a standard Mormon text, "The Doctrine and Covenants," which is a mainstream part of Mormonism:

    And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God.

    -- The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Section 85:7.

    Seems ultra-cute to describe Mitt's bowels as "a fountain of truth." (Not an ordinary navel?)

    That's not all there is to it.

    "White Horse Prophecy" and The Revelation of St. John the Divine. The Anti-Christ.

    Using "one mighty and strong" for a living person is 100% "WHP" cult-crap. This ties back to an unofficial, SLC Tabernacle-rejected work called the White Horse Prophecy. The cult is in no way official Mormonism.

    Mitt Romney got the nickname, he became The One when he was at BYU in Provo in his twenties. He was thought to be a participant in a miracle.

    How he acquired the cult title goes to #...

    2. Romney was believed to have survived a terrible automobile accident caused by a "drunk priest." This happened on June 16th 1968 while on missionary assignment in France. Mitt got a lot of people to believe that Bishop Jean Vilnet, the other driver, had gotten sauced on sacramental wine, just prior to driving two women home from Sunday Mass. Mrs. Leola Anderson of Ogden UT was killed.

    Mitt Romney's Driving Killed Leola Anderson. His Cover-Up Tale is Proved Dishonest.

    Romney has used the name "Albert Marie" for the bishop in his version of the accident. He invoked substantial lying-for-the-Lord with assistance from others to keep himself out of trouble.

    Mitt's own bad driving had put him wrong-way into an on-coming Left Turn lane. His own carelessness had caused the accident.

    By 2006/2007 when Romney set up to run for the presidency, an additional lie was tacked on in his authorized biography, "The Real Romney." Mitt claimed then to have been in a "three day coma" following the accident, which put him unconscious for the period when the "drunk priest" tale was generated. (Pages 80-83.)

    Mrs. Anderson's obituary in the Ogden Standard-Examiner from the next day, the evening edition of that 17th of June, contains an eye witness account from Andre Salarnier. He spoke with Mitt Romney in hospital that morning and phoned in his report. "A minor head injury" was the report. There's photos of Romney in his ward bed talking with Salarnier.

    Bishop Vilnet is 90 years old and lives at St.-Die-de-Vosges in France.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    White Horse Prophecy cultists fell all over themselves in the 1970s and still fall all over themselves to believe that Mitt Romney is destined to be their conquering hero. "The Conqueror." "One Mighty and Strong." Ann is one of them. The boys are, too. They speak of Mitt's "destiny."

    None of these people know that Joseph Smith's "WHP" is a crass borrowing from The Revelation of St. John the Divine, the 66th book of the King James Bible. They do not read the Christian Bible. They should, because Smith botched this one horrendously.

    There, in the Bible, this "conqueror" is explicitly the Christian Anti-Christ.
    There is one conqueror in The Revelation and he is the one who gets 42 months to lay waste to the earth. The Lamb opens the first Seal leading to the End, and then Satan responds:

    Revelation, Ch. 6, V. 2:  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
    That is Smith's white horse.

    Mitt Romney is in no way supernatural. Neither was Smith. Obviously.

    Romney is unable to recognize that with his lying and lying and lying, he is playing out Joseph Smith's blundering bass-ackwards misinterpretation of Satan's Anti-Christ.

    (This "white horse" for the WHP cult is a charm that protects lies. That's apparently why Romney has total confidence in his lies, thinks he can lie every time, about everything. He confuses paid adulation from the Chuck Todds and David Brookses and Billy Grahams of this world with magic.)

    The "WHP" cult is not Mormonism. And by rough survey there also appear to be more ex-Mormons, today, than active Mormons. Judging from overall effect, the social patterns of Mormon and ex-Mormon families do better than most for divorce, drugs, and education. The two groups are practically indistinguishable for social achievement. What happened in Utah with emphasis on gentleness and sobriety has turned into a good thing.

    Hard to find fault with that.

    Cult-crap and authoritarian corruption ??? We have to expect that any large social movement is going to have its baggage. This "WHP" cult and its princeling Mitt Romney are the very worst for misusing Mormonism. Ordinary Mormons have been hammered to fork over extra millions and millions of dollars to fund this faker's 2012 run for the presidency.

    News at 11.

    •  Oh boy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, bontemps2012

      Mitt's arrogance is paramount but I know of no one outside of the far religious right and Utah County that really take the White Horse Prophecy and Mitt's role in it seriously. Mitt is a pretty standard mainstream official church Mormon. The belief that Mitt is destined to be President is pretty standard when it comes to the guy next in line who've spent a lifetime on the political stage. I think it's especially prevalent in political dynasties.

      •  To repeat: Provo UT in 1969/1970 (0+ / 0-)

        is when these White Horse Prophecy true believers started calling Mitt Romney by the unique title: "One Mighty and Strong."

        His lie about surviving the automobile accident alleged to have been caused by a "drunk priest named Albert Marie, age 46" in Beaulac France was the causative miracle.

        And based on evidence, there should be no doubt that these true believers constitute a politically committed cult within (and, in schismatic groups, even outside of) the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints.

        We are researching the breadth of this cult. More info later, surely by November 1st.

  •  I've been as guilty as the next poster... (0+ / 0-)

    of snarking about the weirder aspects of Romney's religion (magical undies and the like) but I do believe that it's a valid subject for discussion.  When Pat Robertson ran for the Repub nomination in '88, his religious beliefs were very much a part of the conversation even though he was the son of a US senator.  Similarly, if a retired Catholic priest was to seek the Presidency, there would probably be even more discussion of his faith than there was of JFK's back in the day.  Bishop Romney has resigned his leadership role in the LDS, but apparently his religion is still a major force in his life, and it does not seem to me that asking how that connection might impact his decisions as leader of the free world is out of line--especially since (as noted above) that faith has a somewhat disclaimed but still potent doctrine that one of their own shall lead the country to a Mormon-dominated theocracy.  That seems like a worthy subject for discussion, and not anti-Mormon in the least.  Throw in the Prop 8 michegas and all the ruckus over the President's beliefs on the right, and I'd say Mitt will just have to put up with a little discussion of his philosophical peculiarities.

    It ain't free speech if it takes cash money.

    by Uncle Igor on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 02:20:43 AM PDT

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