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As I often do, I tie things together from different and varied places. Today, it's my urban sociology class, and this article on the Audacity of Despair. (Trust me, they do eventually come together.)

A few things before we make the jump: "Urban" means more than 2500 people live in a town, according to the US Census bureau. "Rural" is anything less than that which isn't near a major city. "Suburban" areas are still urbanized, and belong with cities, not rural areas, in any analysis like this one. And a "metro area" is the large sprawl of suburbs that spread out from a major city, like Los Angeles, New York, or Denver.

Come with me past the fleur-de-Kos?

First, let's go to college.

This morning, after I thanked my urban sociology class for voting (youth vote, hurray!) and began to start the planned lesson, I stopped. All those shining, excited faces - I had to address the election from the point of view of our class topic - urbanization.

I asked my students, "How do we tie urbanization to what happened yesterday? How would you do that?"

My students responded variously, listing the effects of urbanization that make Democrats more likely to win (all of them correct):

- More diversity means more tolerance of those who aren't like us.
- More tolerance leads to a more progressive mindset.
- Progressives tend to vote Democratic.

Then I asked them, why is urbanization related to this event?

They know that over 50% of the world is now urban. And from previous classes, one of them remembered that the United States is 80% urban. So maybe it's because of urbanization - the more rural areas aren't voting progressively.

Then I asked about one battleground state: Colorado. The Republicans, I said, were kind of counting on Colorado. What's changed? In 2008, Colorado went blue for Obama but the last time it went blue before that was in 1992. And for the rest of the recorded votes for the last thirty or so years, Colorado has been blood-red. So the Republicans were counting on Colorado being in their column for Mr. Romney this time. What happened?

One of my internet-equipped laptop-holding students volunteered the knowledge that Colorado was 83% or so urban. But, I said, it's been pretty much that level of urban for a while. Here's an idea - we know that a lot of people don't vote. How do we explain Colorado going for Mr. Obama? Also, it's got quite a few businessmen, so shouldn't they have voted for another businessman (and businessmen tend to be urban)?

Keeping the topic on urbanism on that was a little difficult, but the class finally agreed that the Denver metro area's spread (along with several others) may serve the 1%er base to some extent, but the changes caused by urbanism among people who aren't in the 1% may still make Colorado part of the reliable electoral firewall for the Democratic party from here on out.

I then threw the net a bit more widely. How is urbanization related to the federal budget? I asked.

One student - one of my whiz kids - raised her hand and said, "Because people in cities are more likely to be tolerant, and because they don't have others they can call on for help in bad times, they are more likely to support taxes for the social safety nets." Another student raised his hand and said "Yeah, and rural people don't understand that if you're in a city, you can't just ask your neighbor for help. Cities don't work that way."

Well, I challenged them, what about asking your parents or your family for help in the city? Why can't you do that?

The response, from all over the lecture hall, can be summed up to: Because our families don't live in the city. Or they live in a city that's 200 - 2000 miles away.

See? My kids get it.

So, then, let's look at this blog post.

In "Barack Obama and the Death of Normal," David Simon makes this very important point:

America will soon belong to the men and women — white and black and Latino and Asian, Christian and Jew and Muslim and atheist, gay and straight — who can comfortably walk into a room and accept with real comfort the sensation that they are in a world of certain difference, that there are no real majorities, only pluralities and coalitions.
These are my students, these young men and women. These are the students who have learned that being urban creates this kind of world. And these students? Are for the most part completely comfortable with that. They will raise their children in cities, too, and their children will grow up comfortable, tolerant and progressive.

Meanwhile, as demonstrated yesterday, the rural worldview, the clannishness, the us-and-them mentality, is dying. It's dying because our young people are growing up in diverse, urban, metropolitan areas more and more often. It's dying because fewer and fewer people are staying in rural towns. The world is more urban than it has ever been in human history.

The Tea Party (and the GOP) and their members have been running on the rural worldview and all its attendant assumptions - whites are the majority, men are the majority, women should know their place, anyone not white should go away and go to prison - for a long, long time.

But as my student pointed out, the more urban we get, the more the social safety net is going to be important to us. The more urban we get, the more progressive the country gets. The more we urbanize, the more progressives we get.

Urbanization is often thought of as something totally negative. Here's a plus for all of us - it creates progressives.

Now, urban soc is not my specialization. But damn, I'm glad I'm teaching it this term, at this time, with these kids. I'm one damn lucky man.

Originally posted to Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:09 PM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:09:22 PM PST

  •  Um, no. Seriously. On the farm what you KNOW (29+ / 0-)

    isn't that the white guy is the boss. What you KNOW is that weather can destroy you, the banker can destroy you, the insurance guy can destroy you -- and you can't control any of that. What you can, indeed MUST, control, is that you WORK to overcome all of them.

    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:26:02 PM PST

    •  I'm not talking about farms. (24+ / 0-)

      I'm talking about veeeeery small towns. You know, where everyone knows everyone, there are 900 people and seven last names? The culture of the rural town is dying. It's also the culture of the Tea Party.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:34:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many veeeeeery small towns (23+ / 0-)

        are there anymore, for Pete's sake? Of the variety that can sway elections. Answer? Zero. Nada. Zip, zilch.

        Deal is, those of us who DO live in such rarified environs are usually allied to city folk in some fashion, if only just to sell them our excess eggs and produce. When and if things get really bad, we're the ones you turn to for sustenance, because we're the ones who know how.

        And no, we most certainly are NOT all teabaggers. Look around. wouldn't hurt a single one of you to join a CSA and get to know your local food producers. Or do without...

        Why would anybody choose that?

      •  but I have to disagree with the Census Bureau's... (26+ / 0-)

        ... definition of "urban" as any town of 2,500 population or larger.

        That definition might have fit a century ago.  But not now.  

        Try 50,000 or so.

        This election was the turning point toward a future with a future.

        by G2geek on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 11:44:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You have a good starting point (20+ / 0-)

          At what "scale" do we consider things "urban"?  At the scale where there's municipal water instead of wells?  Where there's more than one stoplight?  Where there are public institutions like libraries and local history museums?  Where there are enough people to justify opening a chain store?

          The definition has changed over time.  I would say that in the days when everyone lived on the farm, "urban" was any place where people didn't produce their own food.  It could be a town of 200, and the guy who ran the general store and didn't have his own veggie patch would be a "town man".  

          Nowadays, it's more about mindset and culture.  Even the tiniest towns have many of the comforts of the big city.  I came home to Michigan a summer and a half ago from Japan and drove up into the center of the lower peninsula to visit an old friend.  I was astounded to find wi-fi internet everywhere (please note I hadn't been in the states in about four years), even in the towns where there are twenty houses on main street and then nothing but soybeans and corn again for miles.  

          As an aside, I lived in Toyota for two years.  Toyota is, of course, the home of the Toyota Motor Corporation, and is, by American standards, a sizable city (population 425,000) with all of the amenities and a huge tax base.  Yet all of my students insisted that Toyota is a “small town”.  The word they used was “inaka”, which means “rural” or “countryside”.  There are indeed rural areas of Toyota, since Toyota encompasses areas that were once independent villages, but the kids I spoke to lived downtown.  I knew what they meant, of course.  They compared themselves to nearby Nagoya (pop. 2.27 million, 8 million counting suburbs).  I’ve spoken to people in Nagoya that claim that they are a small town, because they think of Tokyo (13 million / 35 million w/suburbs) as a big city.

          Rambling aside, I think your figure of 50,000 is a good one, but the only finger I can put on it is because it “feels right”.  Since so many small towns have the same level of facilities these days (water, sewer, police and fire, internet access, etc.) then what should the acid test of “urban” be?  Simply population?  Is there a better definition we could use?

          What does everyone else think?      

          •  hi;-) I'd say "urban" = has more than one or... (8+ / 0-)

            ... two distinct neighborhoods or communities-of-interest, defined ethnically, linguistically, or by some other measure of culture.  This isn't conflating a definition with "metropolitan," which implies a much larger nexus of a large number of distinct neighborhoods or communities-of-interest.  

            I wouldn't use economic class for that because most towns of any size above about 1,000 people have "wealthy neighborhoods" and "middle/working class neighborhoods" and "poor neighborhoods."

            The following considerations apply out of necessity: a relatively large and dense population cannot succeed (and in some cases cannot survive) without them:

            A basic level of municipal services is essential: representative government (legislative, executive, and judicial functions), public safety (police, fire, EMT), public health (public water & sewer system, refuse & recycling, vaccination), public education, and public libraries for continuing self-education.

            Medical, dental, psychiatric, legal, and administrative services are all necessities to serve the population: most of these are handled in the private sector.    

            As far as technology goes, we can reasonably list these as necessities:   Electricity, telephones, and radio are vital for public safety.  (Compare the fire risk of electricity vs. open-flame methods of heat and light, the crime risk without telephones, and the natural disaster risk without radio.)

            Means of communication and association are also essential for the functioning of representative democracy:  At minimum, a functional postal system, a functional means of publishing and disseminating news & opinion such as newspapers, and physical places of public assembly (village square, park, etc.).  

            Some form of public transportation is also essential to prevent traffic gridlock:  At minimum, a functioning bus system, even if it's horse-drawn.  

            There must also be some means of economic interchange for goods & services produced in the urban area for those that can't be produced there, notably food on the scale required.  With this we also get organized workplaces, logistical services such as trucking or its equivalents, and wholesale and retail shops.  

            As technology advances, all of these things can climb the entropy gradient to higher degrees of complexity: newspapers largely give way to internet, radio is somewhat supplanted by television, horse-drawn buses are replaced by motorized ones using whatever fuel is acceptable.  

            Also as the means of communication improve, the population becomes better informed and more capable of acting willfully at both the individual and collective scale: this also tends to increase complexity of the system and create further diversification of communities of interest.  Artists' neighborhoods are a key example of this.

            But the key thing is the initial degree of cultural diversification, and the infrastructure and social structure needed to support a population of the relevant size and density.

            This election was the turning point toward a future with a future.

            by G2geek on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:58:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, there's urban through population (7+ / 0-)

              and then there's urban through culture. Most of the time, the cultural changes go hand-in-hand with the population increase.

              Science is never deterministic; it can only be probabalistic, especially with social science.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:38:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  where did i say anything about determinism? (0+ / 0-)

                In fact you'll often see me making noise in these pages about the probabilistic nature of the physical universe and everything in it including human brains.   (I frequently have to argue that indeterminacy and entanglement are factors in neural computation, in a manner that a) produces free will, and b) cannot be duplicated in algorithms running on deterministic platforms; these points both in opposition to the dominant paradigms at this time.)

                However it is also true to a high level of probability that approaches certainty, that in any densely populated area, the absence of the services & infrastructure I mentioned, will lead in short order to high rates of crime, disease, and preventable death.

                And it is also true to a high level of probability that approaches certainty, that as the population of a densely-populated area increases, its ethnic and cultural diversity will also necessarily increase as a simple function of the normal curve of the population at-large in the areas with which a given urban area is connected by direct transportation routes.

                Now we've got our future back.

                by G2geek on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:36:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  hi yourself! ;-) Great analysis, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I'll mull this at work today and be back later!  

          •  I think the definition for metro areas (4+ / 0-)

            is better. That's any city with its surrounding towns that has a population of 100k or more.

            And I think a small city is defined at 20k or more.

            At that point, it pretty much is urban. Central water/sewer kicks in about then. A business district, even if it's small. Often there are a few govt buildings - a county/city office, library, court. There's a school system, with separate elementary and high schools.

            And I would think that's a good definition for urban.

          •  I lived in Misawa which is more populous than (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            my entire county that covers an area the size of MA. Misawa considered itself to be extremely rural.

            I lived in Tokyo, too.

            I think it was the preponderance of farms on the outskirts of town that made people in Misawa think of themselves as rural. That and people wore galoshes all the time.

            My current community is surrounded by ranches and farms too. The stores and businesses provide services for the surrounding farm communities.

            In a true city, people visit farmer's markets but don't farm. But even this is no longer correct with the advent of Urban Farms, especially in the Detroit area.

            And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! -Leonard Cohen .................@laurenreichelt

            by TheFatLadySings on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:04:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Well... yes/no (7+ / 0-)

          I agree that true urban is in the 50k range. But then it depends on how closely coupled you are to an urban area too.

          Smaller cities do have some of the same qualities the diarist talks about, though. The property of you not having grown up with your neighbor, of not having your extended family within a few miles, of more churn in people moving in and out.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:33:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  A more appropriate metric is (5+ / 0-)

          is the definition of urbanizing area used in transportation planning, a population density in excess of 1000 persons per square mile.

        •  I agree with you. I live in a town of about (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          8,500. I grew up in Chicago. My town is rural.

          I honestly encountered more close-minded and bigoted folks in Chicago than I have here.

          And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! -Leonard Cohen .................@laurenreichelt

          by TheFatLadySings on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:58:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  This diary is incorrect (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          You are mixing up urban areas and urban clusters.

          How does the Census Bureau define "urban" and "rural?"
          The Census Bureau's urban-rural classification is fundamentally a delineation of geographical areas, identifying both individual urban areas and the rural areas of the nation. The Census Bureau's urban areas represent densely developed territory, and encompass residential, commercial, and other non-residential urban land uses. For the 2010 Census, an urban area will comprise a densely settled core of census tracts and/or census blocks that meet minimum population density requirements, along with adjacent territory containing non-residential urban land uses as well as territory with low population density included to link outlying densely settled territory with the densely settled core. To qualify as an urban area, the territory identified according to criteria must encompass at least 2,500 people, at least 1,500 of which reside outside institutional group quarters.

          The Census Bureau identifies two types of urban areas:

          Urbanized Areas (UAs) of 50,000 or more people;
          Urban Clusters (UCs) of at least 2,500 and less than 50,000 people.
          "Rural" encompasses all population, housing, and territory not included within an urban area.


          How has the Census Bureau's urban-rural definition changed over time?
          From the 1910 Census through the 1940 Census, the Census Bureau defined "urban" as any incorporated place that contained at least 2,500 people within its boundaries. Additional criteria were applied to classify certain New England towns and other areas as urban through "special rules." This accounted for selected geographic areas that had urban characteristics but were not identified as incorporated places by the Census Bureau.

          Increasing suburbanization, particularly outside the boundaries of large incorporated places led the Census Bureau to adopt the urbanized area (UA) concept for the 1950 Census. At that time, the Census Bureau formally recognized that densely settled communities outside the boundaries of large incorporated municipalities were just as "urban" as the densely settled population inside those boundaries and the large unsettled or sparsely settled areas inside those boundaries were just as "rural" as those outside.

          How do urbanized areas (UAs) and urban clusters (UCs) compare to the Office of Management and Budget's metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas?
          Urbanized areas and urban clusters form the urban cores of metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas, respectively. Each metropolitan statistical area will contain at least one urbanized area of 50,000 or more people; each micropolitan statistical area will contain at least one urban cluster of at least 10,000 and less than 50,000 people. Metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas represent the county-based functional regions associated with urban centers (hence, the generic term "core based statistical areas").

          Were there changes to the urban area delineation criteria for the 2010 Census?
          Yes. A description of differences between the 2010 Census urban area criteria and Census 2000 urban area criteria are available.

          Changes include:

          inclusion of census blocks with a high degree of impervious surfaces (added to the criteria to help identify blocks containing non-residential urban land uses);
          criteria for merging and splitting urban areas were modified to ensure that any Census 2000 urbanized area will continue to be separately identified as an urbanized area for the 2010 Census, provided that the area still has a population of at least 50,000;

          Also, I am under the impression that most sociologists use metropolitan statistical areas.
          How do urbanized areas (UAs) and urban clusters (UCs) compare to the Office of Management and Budget's metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas?
          Urbanized areas and urban clusters form the urban cores of metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas, respectively. Each metropolitan statistical area will contain at least one urbanized area of 50,000 or more people; each micropolitan statistical area will contain at least one urban cluster of at least 10,000 and less than 50,000 people. Metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas represent the county-based functional regions associated with urban centers (hence, the generic term "core based statistical areas").
          Finally, no group of people are monolith, and I disagree with your using categorizations such as "the rural worldview".  

          Helping a food pantry on the Cheyenne River Reservation,Okiciyap." ><"

          by betson08 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:26:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Over-simplistic view (3+ / 0-)

        The Tea-Party is strong in the suburbs, which are obviously quite urban. Many are middle income and upper midle income people.

        A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

        by slatsg on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:05:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  its the exurban areas (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, TheFatLadySings

        not so much rural ones, that seem to be the reddest.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:14:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My county is dotted with veeeeeeery small (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        towns and the people who live here have seven last names: Martinez, Archuleta, Montoya, Trujillo, Griego, Montaño, Arellano (etc.). They all vote blue.

        Farming is an essential part of the economy in rural areas. I have no idea what sort of rural America you are talking about that doesn't include farms. Veeeery small towns have farms in them.

        There are no Tea Partiers here. The culture of the Tea Party is not necessarily rural. You are gathering your information about rural communities from Deliverance.

        My state is so rural that I drive six hours to the south to Las Cruces, stop at a gas station and run into someone I know. I once stopped by the side of the road to pee (behind the car) about four hours from home in the middle of nowhere, when who should drive up but a car full of my coworkers.

        Not a tea partier among them.


        And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! -Leonard Cohen .................@laurenreichelt

        by TheFatLadySings on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:47:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Unfortunately, most farming in the US (6+ / 0-)

      is no longer conducted by stereotypical farmers, but is instead done by huge agri-conglomerates who don't really give a damn.

  •  My professor in an urbanization class (7+ / 0-)

    was predicting the death of the rural view over 50 years ago. :)  Sure hope it dies before I do!

    As a city girl, I got it--and I get it even more since moving to Colorado 30 years ago.  We moved to rural Douglas County--I don't think a Democrat has ever been elected for anything  here!  Well, no, not true--one was president of the school board many moons ago--now it's ALL Republican, getting redder as it became more urbanized. A paradox. A last ditch stand, perhaps? And it may have reached a tipping point. There do seem to be more Democrats here these days--we're only losing by 30 points instead of 40!  

    •  Really? (7+ / 0-)

      You hope I die before you do? Wow. I know how to produce my own food. And preserve it so it lasts through the winter. Do you?

      •  Here's a suggestion. (12+ / 0-)

        Stop taking this personally. It's not about you, and you wouldn't be here if you had the mindset I'm talking about.

        "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:16:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I cannot imagine how in the world (7+ / 0-)

          you figure you can exterminate a "mindset" that arises from not living in a big city. The post by purplepenlady above that I replied to says she hopes the "rural view" dies before she does.

          Can you explain to me how one goes about killing a worldview without killing the people who hold that world view? Because I sure as hell can't see it, and this whole exchange is every bit as creepy as any Republican's obsession with rape and/or gay sex. Possibly creepier.

          •  People do change their minds (6+ / 0-)

            and they do grow in different directions.

            I live in a very progressive and very rural area.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:48:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Growth is Not a Death Rattle (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, aimlessmind, peagreen, melo

              What you state points to a common subset of values between rural and urban settings. Most likely, these values are shared by a great many which is why they should be our focus.

              What is lacking is the consistent use of respectful communication between diverse groups. We've seen its lack here despite knowing better. However, team rape deserves every last drop of contempt we can muster. All groups want respect and acknowledgment of what is important to them.

              Language matters. We have seen how it can slice and dice us. We've seen how it can distract from very pressing issues we should be concerned about. We've seen how people can be convinced to vote against their interests because of poor messaging. Now, we need to develop a language that unites us all. A worldview all can recognize because it is a composite of all we hold dear.

              We can start by looking at each other as individual's within a community, not stereotypes.

          •  I completely agree with you. eom (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! -Leonard Cohen .................@laurenreichelt

            by TheFatLadySings on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:10:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The people adopt a new, better worldview. (0+ / 0-)

            So they stay alive.  There you go.

            The '60s were simply an attempt to get the 21st Century started early....Well, what are we waiting for? There's no deadline on a dream!

            by Panurge on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 09:46:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If one doesn't live in a big city (0+ / 0-)

              then one has no need for a big city world view. That certainly seems obvious enough.

              People who live in the country stay alive pretty well, just like people in the city. They're killed less often by city wolves (gangs, random crazy people, violent neighbors, etc., etc.), more often by lousy medical care. It all balances out in the end.

              Do let us know when it becomes illegal to live outside of a big city, so we'll know when to start packing. Until then all this talk about killing world views you disagree with just makes the bluster sound a whole lot like the Republican Hate Squad we're all so damned sick of.

        •  Speaking as somebody urban: no. Stop that. (19+ / 0-)

          You don't insult the "rural mindset" and then tell someone rural that she should stop taking it personally and you're not talking about her.  You are talking about her.  She is of the people you're talking about.

          Saying "present company excepted" doesn't make this conversation any less about actual real people, some of whom are actually really here.  Here's a suggestion: when one of those actual real people says something about the subject, maybe you should listen.

        •  I think some care can be taken (18+ / 0-)

          in an assumption that all rural people would necessarily have such a mindset, as your piece seems to imply.

          You might give it more adjectives, like "old school rural mindset" to make it more obvious that it's not necessarily tied to a rural lifestyle or rural people.

          Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

          by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:49:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Or simply use "ignorant" or "racist" (4+ / 0-)

            since those describe attitudes rather than locations.

            Yes, there is SOME correlation between location and ignorance ... just as for instance there is, whether we like it or not, some correlation between race and crime rates.  But I question whether it's particularly useful or valid to base an entire terminology and theoretical framework on the circumstantial corollary instead of on the actual area of problem of concern (racism, crime).

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:44:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  It IS about Joieau (18+ / 0-)

          It's also about me. It's about everyone who lives in a rural area, because you're acting as though there's a particular rural worldview. Well, guess what, there are a lot of people living in rural areas who don't fit your stereotype. And, frankly, it's ironic that you're stereotyping and dismissing rural people because they . . . stereotype people. Huh?

          Can I make a simple suggestion? If you haven't, would you consider reading some Wendell Berry essays? I think he does a fantastic job of confronting the bias against rural people that has arisen in this country and takes it apart.

          One of the better things I've done is moved from an urban area to a rural area. I moved to rural areas and began to farm with a progressive, liberal, urban mindset. I now have much more of a rural mindset, still strongly influenced by progressivism and liberalism, but with certain aspects of conservatism and libertarianism mixed in. But I've seen a lot of stereotyping, bias toward, and dismissal of rural people amongst progressives--which is a big part of the reason rural people sometimes get grumbly about progressives and liberals. (Similarly, progressives and liberals like to get grumbly about rural conservatives because they often have dismissive and stereotyped views of urban liberals. See what's happening here?)

          The thing is--as I've learned--if you actually get to know rural populations, you'll find a wide variety of views across the political spectrum. You'll also find a lot of people who can't be easily classified. Rural living is a very different beast than urban living and it tends to lead to different view points on life and society. That's not always because rural folks are scared of anyone not like them. If anything, I found it incredibly easy to surround myself with people who believed all the same things as me when I lived in an urban area. In a rural area, that's near impossible. You depend more on your neighbors, your coworkers, local businesspeople, and if they have differing view points from you, it's not so easy just to go find someone else to deal with who has the same viewpoints. Living in a rural area has actually made me far more tolerant of others because it's helped me to realize that those with differing political and other views typically are good people with backgrounds and experiences that inform those views--not the caricatured, heartless enemies that are so often portrayed on both sides of the political spectrum.

          Sorry, but you've written about a caricature here, and I don't think it's very helpful. It just reinforces bias.

          Of The Hands - Thoughts on voluntary poverty, homesteading, farming, reconnecting to the land, doing good work, and muddling through the new no-growth economy.

          by aimlessmind on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:51:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well put - and what about isolation in the cities? (6+ / 0-)

            We live just outside the urban boundary - although it is ruralish right up to that boundary. We know most of our neighbors and know that we don't all agree with each other, but we're always there for each other - none of us had up yard signs during the election mostly likely because it creates unnecessary tensions.

            What about the isolation that exists in the cities, neighbors not ever talking to neighbors or getting to know who lives next door. What about the stress and the violence and the paranoia?

            I get what this post is getting at, but think the choice of words -- labels -- is unfortunate. Labels are always unfortunate.

        •  Dismissivenss is Not Applicable in This Case (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, smalakoff, TheFatLadySings

          Perhaps understanding would be a better approach. We're developing an understanding of what it means to be interdependent, but our culture lacks the supporting framework...for now.

        •  Then the mindset isn't (8+ / 0-)

          about rural/urban, but about something else (perhaps traditional vs. progressive, although not in the political sense).  You can't define "rural" as "backwards except for those people who live in rural areas who aren't backwards."

        •  Here's a suggestion (4+ / 0-)

          Stop over-generalizing. I grew up in the city and visit quite often. I like visiting Chicago, but it a very segregated city. Some of the most vicious and virulent racism can be found in urban areas.

          A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

          by slatsg on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:17:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Preserving food (0+ / 0-)

        I assume you're talking about something like salting, right?

        •  Canning, freezing, drying. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aimlessmind, TheFatLadySings

          I like drying best and have a quite nifty solar dehydrator that works great. Built it myself. A very kewl way to preserve the bounty.

          •  actually... (0+ / 0-)

            canning and freezing aren't going to be options, because power is going to be scarce.  Also, budget about 1/4 of your product for your draft animals.  

            Drying and salting are about it.

            •  Canning is an option. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Just have to do it over the grill or campfire out back. Or on the wood stove, but that's only fired up in the winter. In fact, it's much more pleasant done outside so it doesn't heat up the house. Still, unless I'm going for preserved concoctions (salsa, condiments, pickles, wine, vinegars, etc.) I prefer drying. 20 pounds of tomatoes can be dry-dried to fit into a single pint-sized zip lock or ground into powder along with other dried veggies and turned into fine broth bullion. Keeps essentially forever in any old container with a decent lid, quickly re-hydrated, no boiling or sterilizing.

              Salt is for pickles and jerky, not fine veggies or fruit. Don't have any draft animals, but if I did need one I'd get it free from the county rescue. It can eat grass and weeds, hay in the winter, supplement with some grain I can get from my contacts in the valley who grow grain. Trade tomatoes, beans, potatoes or fruit at harvest for whatever I don't grow. Works out fine. Have neighbors with cows and neighbors with goats, so no problem for milk/cheese. Have way more eggs every day than my family will eat, and several happy hives for honey and wax. Now I need to learn how to make mead...

      •  I Wish This Knowledge Was More Common n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, TheFatLadySings
  •  You might like studying progressive rural areas (27+ / 0-)

    My county, Lake, in California closely matches the statewide results for President. Northwest of us, Mendocino County voted 66% for Obama (state was 59%), and North of that is Humboldt County who voted 60% for Obama.

    At least I like studying progressive rural areas. I'm so thankful I ended up here! I bet there's counties in Vermont and Maine that are progressive. Maybe Minnesota still has blue rural places.

    "Societies strain harder and harder to sustain the decadent opulence of the ruling class, even as it destroys the foundations of productivity and wealth." — Chris Hedges

    by Crider on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:38:28 PM PST

  •  What about rural economies? (26+ / 0-)

    This might need its own diary, but as I was looking at random counties across America, I noticed that many if not most tilted further red than four years. A plurality of Romney voters also think that they economy is worse than four years ago.

    Because for most of these locations, the economy is worse than four years ago. These economies are based on simple commodity extraction: lumber, mining, farming, etc., industries that have become increasingly mechanized and outsourced over the past four decades. They don't pay as well or provide the same opportunities as more specialized jobs in finance, health care, or manufacturing. There's a relatively large number of men competing for a relatively small number of low skilled jobs, and they provide the only possible ticket out of poverty.

    Of course, this is a feature of a system not far removed from colonization. Wealth is extracted and consolidated to small number of owners, and rural America is at their mercy.

    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer

    by CFAmick on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:40:45 PM PST

  •  Well, urban is fascinating (8+ / 0-)

    I think of myself as (among other things) an urban historian, because my interest is in the cooperative aspects of the formation of cultural products. Yes, there are seemingly rural areas that seem to be just as liberal as some cities (see Vermont, for instance), but you have to look at how they were settled and what their relation to the nearest major urban area is.

    What puzzles me is NOT Mendocino and Lake Counties, but some of our more conservative URBAN areas, like Roanoke and Bakersfield. I think when we say urban we also mean diverse.

    -7.75, -8.10; All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:54:25 PM PST

    •  Also, "rural" means less than 2500 people. (4+ / 0-)

      I don't think Mendocino or Lake Counties have that small a number of people in any of their towns. Looking at the Wikipedia page for Mendocino, for example, I notice that very few of its rural areas exceed 1700 people. The few areas that are designated "cities" have upwards of 3500 people.

      Many places that we think of as rural are not (they're part of the urban fringe or a metro area and are tied to it by economic and cultural considerations). But of course urbanism can be overridden by other considerations - Salt Lake City is an example here. Even though it's a huge city, its culture of Mormonism tipped it for Romney yesterday. Bakersfield has a similar religious thing going on - almost 70% of its residents are either Catholic (58%) or in the Southern Baptist church (10%) , both of which lean pretty conservative. Another 8 percent or so are distributed across Assembly of God and other hyper-religious groups. And unlike, say, the religious distribution of Los Angeles, most of those Catholics are probably either white Catholics (tending more conservative anyway) or first-generation Latino Catholics (very conservative in many way).

      It's late and I have to be up at 4 a.m. or I'd dig into this a little more. I'll try to come back to it tomorrow night.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:14:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped, but I can't shake the feeling that your (12+ / 0-)

    analysis is perhaps a bit flawed as far as your "attendant assumptions" are concerned.  Having lived almost all of my 58 years in so-called 'rural worldview' areas, I have seen a shift in attitudes and voting habits rather than some hardening and lessening influence of fixed views in the face of an increasing 'urban worldview'.  In my home state of Idaho, there was once a time where Governors, Senators, and - at least in the northern part of the state - House members were Democrats...  

    ...the State of my birth and a lot of my first couple decades of life is now almost universally a red state, but I suspect that this shift is a result of changes in things that have little to do with the 'assumptions' to which you allude.  Having lived since 1990 in various communities on the east side of the Orygun Cascades, I see a different sort of worldview than the rural northern Idaho where I grew up, but the issues and pressures that lead to reliable Republican voting are the same.  They have more to do with a rather more expansive kind of old-fashioned libertarian view of government influence on peoples' lives and livelihood than on any sort of "we white guys are the boss of all of you" meme that has become a sort of urban shorthand for the rural worldview... experience is, of course, confined to the intermountain west so YMMV...  

    "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upward mobile..." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

    by Jack K on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:13:38 PM PST

    •  Yes, true enough. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larsstephens, G2geek, cotterperson

      And most analyses of "rural" areas that I've seen define that term as pretty much synonymous with the rural areas of the South, the rural Midwest, and the rural Plains States areas. I don't think they've done much analysis of the Northwestern and Northeastern rural areas (which do exist, as you say). But most of the contested "battlegrounds" fall in the areas of the South, Midwest, and Plains States, which is why they're interesting.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:50:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps a stronger factor (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, TheFatLadySings

        is the legacy of the Confederacy, rather than the legacy of agrarianism.  

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:56:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alex Budarin

          we also see this in non-American rural areas. If something is common across different cultures, it is probably not a cultural phenomenon so much as a social law.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 05:30:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I grant the phenonemon you describe (0+ / 0-)

            IS found to some degree in other cultures, but would also point out that, just as in our country, it is inadequate to explain ALL observations.

            Take the region of Catolonia, in NE Spain, to which I recently traveled for pleasure.  Left-leaning and prone to populist rebellions for centuries, it was the epicenter of Republican resistance against Fascism during the Spanish civil war. Yes, it has the enormous urban area of Barcelona, but it also has all those tiny, remote villages in the foothills of the Pyrenees, which have long shared, and STILL share the MOST progressive political ideology of any region in Spain.

            I just don't see that a rural vs. urban dichotomy, by itself, is an adequate proxy for ideology -- and in cases where it predicts the opposite of reality, it offends.   I suppose it is fair to view it as a contributor.  

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 08:53:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Appalachia (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I liked this conversation except that it ignored Appalachia.

          Sadly, the history of Appalachia was ignored and a new narrative taught below the Mason-Dixon line.  The true legacy was hostility to the Confederacy.  But the way the history was taught (and learned by the history teachers) was that the Confederacy was a noble protest to protect the southern way of life.  

  •  You have hit the nail on the head dead center (10+ / 0-)

    I have moved, as it happens, so I have comparisons with voting behavior in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and in Washington State.  I have also traveled in both urban and rural Ohio and Pennsylvania.

    What happens in the smaller, rural communities is that there is just not enough advertising revenue to support much in the way of media.  It tends to be starving.  

    There isn't such a thing as media diversity where there isn't an advertising base, and where there isn't a population sufficient for that, there isn't generally any ethnic diversity either.  

    Information flows from authority figures like the rich families in town or from the church.  They are a much older form of information sharing and are not at all progressive.  

    This has been actively exploited by networks funded by the special interest billionaires for decades.  Most progressive miss that because they don't live there.

    Obviously, in cities, there is a much richer diversity of the population and all that goes with it.

    This divide may get wider, especially if there is some kind of generally adverse circumstance that arises at some point.

    In which case, you could see a Romney win the election.

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:31:46 PM PST

    •  Access to high speed internet (6+ / 0-)

      creates access to media, access to a larger social network, and access to markets.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:59:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  ? (7+ / 0-)

      You talk as if there were no newspapers, magazines, radio, television or internet in "rural" America, and that's simply not true. Even where I live - which is as far into the wilderness as it's legal to live - there's 300+ channels of garbage on TV, four accessible NPR stations, high speed internet and even mail delivery. My closest town boasts all of 738 people, a police force, a volunteer fire department (with trucks!), an EMT station, a public school, a nice library, 2 banks, a credit union, several restaurants/fast food joints, a couple of gas stations, municipal water/sewage and garbage pickup (with required recycling separation) and even a newspaper.

      What, other than a high crime rate and mass transit, do city dwellers have that I must be utterly deprived of or ignorant about just because I choose to live in the country? Why, here I am posting on the ever so elitist Daily Kos from my living room, a mere 100 yards away from more than a million acres of National Forest! I certainly don't feel like I'm deprived of anything socially or culturally 'important' enough to disqualify me from participation in this country's electoral process.

      News Flash: People who live in the country or in small towns have the very same access to media and culture as people in big cities. When I last lived in a city it took 40 minutes on a light traffic day to get from my house to the downtown areas with museums, art galleries, bars and theaters where urban culture could be enjoyed (for a price). Now it takes me less than 30 minutes to get to all of that and more. I am quite amazed that there are people here who are so absolutely clueless about non-urban America/Americans.

      •  In our area, we have access to media, certainly (3+ / 0-)

        but because of our combination of small size and vague coupling to other areas which are in turn vaguely coupled to the Bay Area, we don't really have much of a local media market.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:54:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, how much BREAKING!!! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

 do you really need about last week's town council meeting, the most recent arrests and court cases, who's getting divorced or having a baby, or what's on sale at the only grocery store in town? In my small town (5 miles) you get all the really local news from the people you interact with in town. That "everybody knows everything" deal is spookily real, and serves better than the weekly 'nursing home news' or the daily from the county seat. There are two decent newspapers, two television stations and a myriad of radio stations from relatively nearby cities. We get the same national news that people in the city get, at the very same time city people get it, thanks to the magic of electromagnetic energy. It travels fast as light!

          It is true that people whose lives are experienced out in the country or in a very small town sometimes don't pay that much attention to 'big' regional and national concerns that city people think are of ultimate importance. But selective attention isn't unique to rural dwellers. There are plenty of angry old pasty-white Fox-Bots and Limbaugh-Lovers in big cities who can't find New York (or Afghanistan) on a map.

          •  Well actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I really miss good coverage of the county supervisor meetings; they do actually matter to us and that information doesn't propagate out all that well. The local public radio station used to have someone doing that but they do not currently have the funding for it. They had a nice local newscast that covered the north coast for a while.

            But this is funny, a clipping from the newspapers in 1919:

            Walter Jones made a business trip to Ukiah in his motor truck last Thursday.
            Mrs. J.J. Thornton and children visited relatives in Ukiah and Largo last week.
            F.D. Hughes and family motored to Ukiah on business and pleasure last Thursday.
            Roland Boynton, operator at the Snow Mountain Water and Power Company's plant, transacted business at the county seat last Thursday.
            Mr. and Mrs. David Coble and Mr. and Mrs. E.M. Coble motored to Ukiah on business last Friday.
            S.H. Busch, prominent land owner of this valley, transacted business at the county metropolis on Wednesday.
            From a time when traveling by motorcar was newsworthy enough to publish in the paper. :-)

            I don't watch or read Bay Area news; it truly doesn't concern us here, even though that's our "local" media market.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:36:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL - wonderful newspaper clipping! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, elfling

              Over here on the other side of the Hopland Grade, the Bay Area is even more remote. There's some rugged geography in the way of that "vague coupling" for all except the most avid Giants fans, and those who are in the unfortunate situation of having a life-threatening illness which requires treatment at UC SF Med Center. I know several families who are doing this and I can't imagine the stress it must place on their lives and finances. Fortunately this is the kind of place where kind neighbors will offer to feed your chickens and goats while you're gone.

            •  I spent some years (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              attending and then covering the town council meetings, local elections, and yes - the nursing home news in a small town out in Oklahoma for the county weekly. Nowadays there's a good NPR and a country rock station that report on doings, and one of those weekly news/entertainment (arts & nightlife) rags in the city up the road. Locally we just ask or get phone calls if something 'big' is up. being a member of the chamber helps, they're in on everything.

              LOVED your clipping! That's some good ol' American news!!

      •  I think there is a lot of variation (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, highacidity

        It depends in part whether other communities nearby come to you or you go to them, and if your particular community is a pass-through or in a remote corner.

        Weird things influence it all too, like the existence of a power plant or other remote infrastructure.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:59:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  In urban areas (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, elfling

    You can see the web of social and business relationships right there, in your face, every day.

    In rural areas, people can feel much more separate, much more self-sufficient, even if they aren't. There aren't nearly as many connections, so they are not so obvious.

    Women create the entire labor force. Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 11:08:15 PM PST

    •  Well, I'd say that people (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aimlessmind, canyonrat

      in rural areas ARE more self-sufficient. We're always the last to be checked on after big storms, sometimes not at all. After the blizzard of '93 we were without electricity for 9 days while the emergency crews dealt with the hundreds of people in the city who were completely helpless. The National Guard finally buzzed us in a Huey after all that time, saw the smoke from our wood stove and waived before leaving. Would have been nice if they'd dropped us a case of beer, but we could hike down to the road where our truck was parked. We'd been getting to town and back since day-1 after neighbors with tractors plowed the road.

      I have more friendly relationships with my neighbors here than I ever did in the city, though the closest are half a mile away. We look out for each other in trying times, leave each other alone the rest of the time. Which is just how I like it. Have as many friends as I ever had, usually at least a house full on weekends and throughout the summer. What connections am I missing out on?

    •  More to the point, (0+ / 0-)

      what connections they do have are personal, not impersonal. One of the positives people always cite about rural areas is that everyone knows everyone (and the implication is that everyone also cares about everyone). This is seen as very positive, and I'm not denying that.

      But rural areas are also documented to have more mental illness and lower employment rates than urban areas. They are known to have many of the same social problems as the inner city in terms of drugs, alcohol use, and teen pregnancy. Not only that, as was documented in another comment to your comment, they are often the last ones to be helped by larger governmental services as they are so far off the beaten path.

      I'm quite annoyed that so many people have taken this analysis as a polemic against those who live in rural areas. In the aggregate, this is how people in rural areas still think, act, and behave. It is not just old-school, it is not just American, and it is not just Confederate. This is a known and worldwide phenomenon. Rural people trend more clannish, more prejudiced, more friendly, and more religious than urban people, no matter where you are looking at them. It's just facts, folks.

      The existence of a few progressives living in a largely rural area does not change that.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 05:36:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Posting on Daily Kos seems to have become like (0+ / 0-)

        posting a peer-reviewed article in a professional journal!      

      •  Killer, you wrote this: (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, Remsicle, canyonrat, Joieau
        the rural worldview and all its attendant assumptions - whites are the majority, men are the majority, women should know their place, anyone not white should go away and go to prison

        Can you understand how that would come across as a polemic to people who live in rural areas? That's a pretty harsh appraisal, and that statement applies it to all rural communities.

        Look, I've written a few diaries here that a lot of people took in a way I didn't expect, so I can understand your frustration. I do have sympathy for you, because I don't think this diary indicates any ill will toward rural people. I do think there's a bit of ignorance in it, though. Or at least gross generalizations.

        If you had simply written that rural areas tended to be more conservative, I doubt you would have received nearly so much push back. But you wrote "the rural worldview" (emphasis mine.) Can you understand why that might rile up a lot of the rural folk here? It sounds an awful lot like a blanket statement ascribing those views to all people who live in rural areas. It sounds from subsequent comments that that's not what you meant, but your words do give that impression.

        You might want to direct some of your annoyance toward your own writing.

        Of The Hands - Thoughts on voluntary poverty, homesteading, farming, reconnecting to the land, doing good work, and muddling through the new no-growth economy.

        by aimlessmind on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:33:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  If you've read Suburban Nation (14+ / 0-)

    it gets a lot into the mindset.

    The Tea Party isn't so much of the rural mindset but more the gated-community mindset.  Sprawl breeds social isolation, and social isolation tends to breed individualist conservatism.  The authors noted that residents of gated communities almost always tend to be the most tax-averse, because that sort of isolation makes people only care about themselves.

    And, to the point about even urban areas in red states being blue: even in smaller towns and cities you'll notice that the people in the town itself (whether it's NYC or a little county seat of 4,000) tend to be at least incrementally more progressive than those in the surrounding countryside.

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:23:02 AM PST

  •  One thing that struck me. (4+ / 0-)

    Neither candidate had to pretend they were a hunter or cowboy in this election, though Mitt claimed to shoot "vermints" in the 2008 primaries.

    It's a start, I guess.

    Show us your tax returns !!!!!!

    by Bush Bites on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:16:35 AM PST

  •  Not really sure it's tolerance per se. (7+ / 0-)

    I can show you some very intolerant urban neighborhoods.

    I think it's more to the fact that urban or even suburban living puts people in such close confines that they realize they need government to deliver services and infrastructure and to arbitrate differences and oversee growth.

    That lone cowboy schtick just doesn't work when you have people living above, below and along-side you, because anything you do will likely affect them and vice versa.

    Show us your tax returns !!!!!!

    by Bush Bites on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:26:15 AM PST

  •  While I agree with a lot of what you're saying... (17+ / 0-)

    Using "rural worldview" as your term seems awfully close to "flyover country".  It comes off as a bit insulting to those of us who do live in rural areas.  The notion that people in rural areas believe they're wholly self-sufficient just isn't true.  The major difference is that they're used to their support networks being on a first name basis.  I believe the disconnect comes from people making the assumption that what works for them works for everyone. That goes both ways.

    I, for one, think that the rural and urban areas need each other.  I do agree that folks in rural areas are less likely to acknowledge that then folks in urban areas...Hence the voting percentages.

    I just don't agree with the broadness of the brush you're painting with.

    •  I live in rural Iowa. Many of us are progressives. (6+ / 0-)
    •  Seems to me that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lgmcp, elfling

      the complaint fails to acknowledge the fact that it only takes 50% plus one to swing an election to one party or the other. Even the deepest red of the deep red states have a significant percentage of Democratic voters. To issue a blanket indictment of all people who live outside megalopolis or the West Coast as if that alone gifts them with a "world view" or "mindset" that is in need of eradication is patently absurd.

      People are born conservative or liberal (read that on Science Daily), and are also influenced by their family and social milieu's adherence to conservatism or liberalism. It is possible that people choose where they'll live based on how comfortable they feel with the conservatism or liberalism of the environs. But I don't think that's particularly prevalent. Living in a crowded high rise in Queens doesn't guarantee you'll be surrounded by Democrats any more than living in small town Kansas guarantees you'll be surrounded by Republicans.

      Oh, and one last note - Today's Republican Party is not conservative by any stretch of imagination or definition. It's all the way to radical reactionary. Conservatives have no place to go except to us, thereby making the Democratic Party ever more conservative. Today's real left-behinds are liberals.

  •  Bill O'Reilly recently wrote a column... (4+ / 0-)

    about not relying on the government during disasters like Sandy.  He mentioned how he has a generator at his Long Island home--which didn't work but but he had a friend that fixed it for him.  Apparently you're a self-reliant yeoman if a friend fixes your generator.  

    Anyway, it never seemed to occur to him how ludicrous it was to suggest that the millions of apartment-dwellers living across the bridge should be running generators in their (oh so spacious) apartments.  I had an aunt who lived in Manhattan, she didn't have room for an extra toaster.

    I don't know what's been trickling down, but it hasn't been pleasant---N. Pelosi

    by Russycle on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:00:09 PM PST

  •  I'm a recently retired sociologist (4+ / 0-)

    and miss the classroom a little bit - loved student interaction as you described but grading, meetings, etc. were .... And it was more a buyout to save $$ than retirement.

    Anyway, I was not an urban specialist but urbanization is a theme in virtually all of our classes. That said, I think urbanization plays a role in several ways.

    As you and your students point out, diversity is much greater in urban areas. And that is important for one's world view.

    Another factor is "visibility" of government support. While rural folks get more government support per capita,it is far more visible in urban areas. There are stop lights everywhere and even on a short drive or walk you will see police, fire, water, electric, ambulances, etc. Government is everywhere and needed in urban areas.

    Finally, for an interesting backdrop on politics in Colorado I suggest picking up a copy of "Fast Food Nation." Several things Schlosser mentions for Colorado's conservative bent. Californians who went there were wealthier and GOP, military, fundamentalist radio moving there, etc.

    Loved reading about your classroom experience.

    I don't know what consciousness is or how it works, but I like it.

    by SocioSam on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:07:28 PM PST

  •  I live rural (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    Used to be more were liberal cause most worked union jobs.

    Now I think rural areas sort of get the short end of the pie as far as roads, schools, internet speed, so they are like " Hey! If gov't isn't going to help me then get out of the way"

    Of course they also overlook the fact that a lot of people who live in rural areas are on checks and some of the only good jobs are gov't jobs.

    I don't think rural areas HAVE to be conservative, but poor educational opportunities, lack of cultural and especially multi cultural recreation, and diminshed upward mobility have sort of resulted in a population more easily swayed by emotion than facts and the lack of critical thinking skills have worked wonders for the GOP.

  •  Your definition of ruralness is suspect (6+ / 0-)
    ... the rural worldview and all its attendant assumptions - whites are the majority, men are the majority, women should know their place, anyone not white should go away and go to prison ...
    What about the tiny towns in the mountains of northern New Mexico, where it's so remote insular that the Spanish spoken resembles that of the 16th century?  

    What about my grandmother who grew up in south central Texas in a Polish farming community and didn't learn English until she was 12, who voted stauch Dem all her life because she thought working people deserved a voice?  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:25:28 PM PST

  •  An interesting map (0+ / 0-)

    From Wikipedia 2008 election.

    Shows the demographic change from 2004.

    If not us ... who? If not here ... where? If not now ... when?

    by RUNDOWN on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:25:34 PM PST

  •  Not sure I agree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, Joieau

    the rise of the exurbs is closely tied to the power of the right. Look at the republican "ring" around Minneapolis, Milwaukee, etc. Here in Minnesota the exurban white voter is the quintessential republican.

    Yes many rural communities vote republican, but they make up a relatively small portion of the population.

    •  You need to look at the blue states who have (0+ / 0-)

      large electoral numbers.  These are states that have large cities.

      •  Not sure what you mean (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elfling, Joieau

        The blue states have large cities. Yes. They also have massive exurbs where you often find their most conservative voters.

        And in some states, rural does not equal conservative - my hometown in Humboldt county, CA is part of a west-coast rural enclave that is far left. Parts of Minnesota are like this too.

        In red states like Arizona, the Georgia, North Carolina, Louisiana etc, etc. there's plenty of blood red exurbs.

      •  Such as where? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dirtfarmer, canyonrat

        ...Dallas Texas?  Atlanta Georgia?  Nashville Tennessee?  Salt Lake City Utah?  Phoenix Arizona?  St, Louis Missouri? New Orleans Louisiana?

        Personally I think this diary oversimplifies things.  

        Look at the electoral map for 1960.  California went for Nixon, and several Bible Belt/Confederate states went for Kennedy.  Last time I checked, Kennedy was considered a liberal.  Did California not have big cities then?  Was Louisiana a bastion of liberalism back then?  Did Texas have big cities back then and suddenly misplace them somewhere?

        The diary ignores how the hell we even got to the place we are at today.  Further, it has an undertone that serves to further divide voters.  

    •  The exurbs are not urban, so much as (0+ / 0-)

      rural mindset gated communities far away from the city center. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the people who live in gated communities share a number of characteristics with people who have the rural mindset.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 05:40:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yep (0+ / 0-)

    Which means that the Electoral College, with its bonus of two votes for every state no matter how sparsely populated, will be the last thing keeping the GOP on their feet in Presidential elections; and that filibuster reform is important.

    Economics is a social *science*. Can we base future economic decisions on math?

    by blue aardvark on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:39:56 PM PST

    •  Is that two EVs in addition (0+ / 0-)

      to population-based votes, or simply as a floor below which a state cannot go?  because it looks like every state has 3 or more EV's at this time

      Also, I was looking earlier today at some nice cartograms for 2012, and while the EV one looked different from the population one, the differences on first glance were fairly subtle: Red State Blue State

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:21:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Started looking this up (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, Sychotic1

        Wikepedia says

        The size of the Electoral College is equal to the total voting membership of both Houses of Congress (435 Representatives and 100 Senators) plus the three electors allocated to Washington, D.C., totaling 538 electors.
        So, for instance, Montana has 1 congressional district and 2 senators, and gets 3 EVs.    NM which has 3 districts gets 5 EVs.  And so on.   Thus to the extent that House representation is proportional to population, EVs are representative.  But, to the extent that the power of small states is magnified by having the same 2 senators as big states,  that factor is partially carried over into the Electoral College system.  

        It occurs to me with interest that as the population has continuously grown, the Electoral College has tilted gradually towards representativeness, with the senate-like aspect becoming gradually diluted.

        So I had fun learning a bit of in-depth civics, here.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:38:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And don't forget (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          One of the motivations for the electoral college is that it over-represented slave states, because their slaves counted towards their populations, even though they weren't legally people.

          Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

          by nominalize on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:15:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I've been posting something similar since the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, Killer of Sacred Cows

    election.  This from the other day:

    There is a demographic here that is missing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:Chitown Kev, srfRantz, MichaelNY
    and the President won  61% of the group.

    My 10 year old said something insightful yesterday and maybe the Republicans could hire him. He said while looking at the map, "wow there is a lot of red, Romney must be winning." I said to him, "no, on the map the red areas have low populations and the blue areas have large populations and the larger the population the more votes that state has."  He responded, "why don't they win the cities?"  

    Why don't they win the cities?

    In order to win in the future the Republicans need to start winning states with larger populations which means they need to make more of an urban appeal. Sure this has crossover with some of the demographics we are discussing but it also means they need to appeal to the culture of urbanity.

  •  I live in a rural area . . . (6+ / 0-)

    Having lived in urban settings all my life before I moved here, I went through severe culture shock after we moved and did see the clannish-ness you talk about.  But rural culture is also changing and I hope you urge your students to extend tolerance to country dwellers, too, as they continue to adjust.  It's important to think of rural folk as just people from a different culture, with much to share to enrich others' lives and trying to make their ways into the future like the rest of us.

    It's touching that your students understand that  government-funded  programs replace the security and support rural people feel in their communities.  Many urban dwellers are looking to rural life examples to relearn how to build genuine communities for support and security in town -- walking communities where people come to know their neighbors, their neighborhood trades people, their local banks and savings and loans, their doctors, dentists and local social organizations -- churches and others -- and events that bring neighbors together to strengthen community.

    I guess what I'm saying is that rural life can seem paranoid to outsiders. Some of that is genuine paranoia, imagined dangers from the encroaching other, etc. But some of it is experienced wariness about how outside interests can impose their will without appreciating or consulting the people in their way. And rural life has preserved beneficial traditions of community that have been lost in the exigencies of modern urban life and need to rediscovered and renewed.

    Don't ask me nothin' about nothin'. I just might tell ya the truth -- B. Dylan

    by ponderer on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:19:52 PM PST

  •  Killer of Sacred Cows, this has been a great (4+ / 0-)

    conversation.  If I don't miss my guess, you learned from your students, and the teacher learned something from this exchange.

    Wish, as a rural person, who appreciates urban life, I had been here to get in on it earlier.

  •  I don't think rural worldviews are going away... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau, mommyof3

    Look, I'd say the rural vs. urban conflict has been with us since the dawn of civilization and the very notion of cities. You can see this conflict in even ancient literature, heck even the bible has that concept of the city dweller versus the rural folk.

    First, I would say rural area is not an exact population figure. Many areas that are far larger, and even incorporated, still consider themselves very rural. And culturally tend to be more conservative on a lot of issues.

    I think waiting for it to vanish is a bit of a fools errand because people have been predicting the demise of ruralness since... well probably since the first cities of Sumer.

  •  Ultra wealthy (0+ / 0-)

    The Ultra wealthy conservatives are urbanites. In fact, they rely on a cadre of urban folk to do their bidding. So how come these 1% folk take to the rural mythos?

    No more gooper LITE!

    by krwada on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:00:24 PM PST

    •  Because nobody else does... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There is an impulse by urban democrats to look down upon the rural folk, either to see us all as one in the same as the worst of the deepest hinterlands of the South during the Civil Rights battles of the 60's...

      Or simply to consider us ignorant, clinging to God and Guns. I'll remind you Obama did say that, but he said urban Democrats should still worry about the plight of the rural people, the economic backwaters and hinterlands beyond places like San Francisco and New York.

      •  Rural Folk (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I am one of them. I grew up a Democrat, and will remain a Democrat. I grew up on a farm in redneck Central Valley California.

        I live in the bright blue San Francisco Bay Area now. I gave up farming, when I was a teen, came up to the Bay Area, and now an engineer here in Silicon Valley.

        I am well aware of the bias you speak of.

        No more gooper LITE!

        by krwada on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 09:55:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lived out here... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Born in the central Valley, briefly my father attempted L.A. for a year and a half and now I'm in the foothills gold country. Been in Calaveras County since I was six.

          I think its unfortunate because the policy can resonate, but I don't think the often down your nose approach is doing much.

          Maybe these areas are nothing but ignorant bigots, but this land of ignorant bigots is populated, however sparsely, with people... people with goals and dreams and aspirations. And that is across the rural and urban divide.

  •  Quite interesting diary. Even the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    rural are getting linked in. Here's an interesting site I check weekly - The Art of the Rural. Though outside urban areas, the internet brings diversity in wonderful ways.

    I feel better knowing teachers like you are active. Thanks.

    "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken, 1925

    by cv lurking gf on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:00:56 PM PST

  •  Simon's quote sums up the results best IMHO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    If... the machine of government... is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobediance, 1849

    by shigeru on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:05:28 PM PST

  •  I think education level is at least as important a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    difference as exposure to 'others'. Education in rural areas is less supported, financially and socially, than it is in urban areas. And there is much less opportunity for enrichment and gifted programs, less flexibility for those with various learning disabilities and less diversity of viewpoints and resources.

    I don't disagree with your basic premise, but I do think that you've overlooked a major factor in the equation.

    Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

    by FarWestGirl on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:06:00 PM PST

  •  It's the opportunities to have one's belief (2+ / 0-)

    structure confronted. In urban areas, it easier to happen.

    The rural libs in this thread like me (I live in BFE) are proactive in questioning and learning. This is the self-reliant part that comes in. However, their are many more rural conservative areas in the country than lib.

    My thought (within my experience) is the "church" in the main social/political director in small communities.

    It would interesting to compare con/lib rural areas and the local churches.

    "Drudge: soundslike sludge, islike sewage."
    (-7.25, -6.72)

    by gougef on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:10:45 PM PST

  •  Even in the big cities one finds stratifications (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    For instance I live in the most liberal district in the most liberal city, but other districts in the city are very different.  Money is probably a big factor.

    Our district supervisor at one time was Matt Gonzalez, Green Party.  He ran with Nader as the VP candidate.  (Matt gave us Ross Mirkarimi, now our Sheriff, who just barely survived being removed from office and will face a recall.  How he got elected is an interesting story in itself.)

  •  THis is a dumb way to frame this. nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  Interesting... but (11+ / 0-)

    Tipped & rec'd because the topic is riveting.

    I disagree with condemning "rural" to meaning cracker-backwards-racist-bigoted-male-dominant-ignorant-isolationist.


    There are plenty of big city and suburban neighborhoods I could walk you through where all that and worse would be grossly evident.

    Just as there are plenty of remote, boondocks places full of vibrant, cosmopolitan - not necessarily hipster potfarm yoga retreats, I mean - communities where difference is celebrated, not just tolerated, and certainly not shunned or written off. And votes are there.

    Why should we ink out the boondocks? I can read county and state maps - but I don't buy the blue-red paradigm wholesale. I see purple.

    Sociologically, anthropologically, psychologically, yes people are different - and one way they show difference is in where they choose to live, or where not to live. BUT folks end up in the darndest places, y'know?

    Again - why should progressives write off districts and parishes and counties where people live who like their wide open spaces? This "worldview" you are talking about: I guess if I take issue with your thesis, then I am really taking issue with this label, "rural," as code for this "clannish" intolerant thing.

    Je refuse!

    If you want to consider a different label, I'd be game. But it seems to me, that even for the sake of expedience, writing off "country," or "pastoral," or "rural," is painting the Democratic party into a corner we don't belong in.
    Ask Iowa senator Tom Harkin. Ask Democrats in Vermont!

    We are urban - we are rural - we are mountain fastness and swampy coast. We are desert fringe and downtown river.

    We are etc. Let this tent be open, and let the canvas spread further.

    Thank you, KofSC for sharing your Colorado youth insights!

    Hope is, after all, the currency of popular politics, and a coin surprisingly hard to devalue. -- Fred Anderson, Crucible of War

    by ornerydad on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:31:32 PM PST

    •  As rural Kossack and I mean... (3+ / 0-)

      rural... I endorse the "etc."

      I also think that there is something to the sociology of this piece... social structures are different in urban areas vs. rural and that really makes a difference in perspective.

      I have also lived in a city and am happy to have been able to offer my children a bit of both of those worlds!

      Our country can survive war, disease, and poverty... what it cannot do without is justice.

      by mommyof3 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 05:08:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  agreed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        there are certainly differences in social structures btwn urban & rural areas - but there are often greater differences within a single city than between that city and a rural area.

        Let's face it, there are plenty of cities where the local "urban" viewpoint is not one of acceptance of differences.

        And there are parts of cities where this cosmopolitan viewpoint is strong - and just a few streets away, one finds oneself in some type of clannish settlement, very inward-focused, exclusive, even "backwards."

        For that matter, do we want every city to be Portland, Oregon? Or Boise, Idaho? San Diego? El Paso? Jacksonville, Florida? The prevailing "urban" worldview of each of these cities - IF it can be succinctly defined - is different, and some of them might be considered to have a "rural" worldview, in terms that the diarist frames this, if I understand KofSC.

        thanks for responding!

        Hope is, after all, the currency of popular politics, and a coin surprisingly hard to devalue. -- Fred Anderson, Crucible of War

        by ornerydad on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:07:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jewish vote (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    I'm know it's more complex and there is important history I am glossing over. But I have often thought a big factor in the reliable Jewish support for Dems may have as much to do with the urban/rural issue too.

    Not a large number of Jews in rural farm country in the US or with family roots there. I suppose one could widen the argument to Asian voters also.  

    As an aside, I'll bet if we analyze the age breakdown in the exit polling we would see the younger voters show more support for Obama because there are more and more younger voters in urban environs. It may not be they are young as much as urban.

  •  How about a rural/suburban coalition? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    The Republicans used to be great at holding together rural and suburban voters. Those voters used to look a lot more similar than urban and suburban voters, e.g. As recently as the Bush era some political scientists were convinced that the suburban fringe (the exurbs) combined with the rural vote was a "permanent majority."

    My gut instinct tells me the social issues and issues around religion are the wedge there, along with demographics.

    But I wonder if the suburbs are inherently progressive in the same way that cities are, or if they could be brought into a coalition with a more conservative, rural worldview, if the Republicans weren't so married to the religious right?

    •  Look no further than Wisconsin (6+ / 0-)

      Suburbs are definitely not inherently progressive.  In fact, I'd argue that most are inherently regressive.  

      I think it would actually make more sense for Democrats to drive a wedge between the suburbs and the rural areas and try to pick off the rural areas.  The real story over the last few decades is how both rural areas and inner cities have been screwed by the suburbs.  

      •  this used to be the Democrats' strategy (0+ / 0-)

        25+ years ago.  It's why the states Dukakis carried were a mix of overwhelmingly rural like Iowa, Oregon, West Virginia etc. and states where the urban vote dominates like Massachusetts and Rhode Island.  Meanwhile states like New Jersey and California went Republican.  

        The Democratic Party has since sold its soul by abandoning this coalition in favor of chasing the votes of upscale voters in the suburbs, and embracing their values, starting with Clinton and continuing with Obama.  While this may win elections, was it worth it?  I think not.  If the only substantive difference between the two major parties at this point is one of them envisions a world of Toyotas and Outback Steak Houses and mass surveillance and wants to unilaterally bomb Iran now, and the other envisions a world of Toyotas and Outback Steak Houses and mass surveillance and wants to bomb Iran as part of a NATO led coalition after a U.N. resolution, what's the difference?

  •  There's a lot of things going on. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    I'm dealing with brain fog, so this may not be as coherent as I would like, but bear with me.

    I look at my mother in law. Born in 1931 in Appalachia, she never saw a black person until she was in her twenties and moved to Indiana to live with her married sister. She is suspicious of "outsiders" motives and goodwill, paranoid and distrustful, and constantly afraid people are looking down on her or making fun of her....all relics of living very rurally in extreme poverty. She is also racist (although as mentioned, to a certain degree she hates everyone).

    And I wonder who she would have been born into an urban enviroment where she could wear something other than a flour sack dress and wear shoes other than for Sundays, where she had to see and interact with a whole lot of different people?

    Impossible to know.

    When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 05:49:32 PM PST

  •  one word: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leema, Killer of Sacred Cows, kovie


    Cities have an infrastructure of belief that progressive values can be built upon.  

    rural areas, not so much.  Their infrastructure is primarily religious: church based and it colonizes nearly all dimensions of rural life in ways that don't happen in urban contexts because there's a diversity of influences (including churches) that make up the infrastructure of daily life and belief.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:06:09 PM PST

  •  I grew up on a tobacco farm... (7+ / 0-)

    And I was blessed with a rural worldview that made me into the progressive I am today.  My grandfather started his work life as essentially an indentured servant who worked other people's farms.  He never made it past first grade, but ran a farm and three grocery stores in his later life.  My grandparents store was one of the few "integrated" stores at the time because they had worked fields with all sorts of people of color.  They practically worshiped FDR in the same way they did Jesus Christ.  Whenever the "rural worldview" you stereotype" crept into my actions, it was quickly knocked out by my grandparents, who taught me inclusion and help of others.  I learned the value of hard work and caring for those in need.  I became the first in my family to go to college and then med school. Your article is exactly the type of elitist, stereotypical bullshit that turns off those who come from a rural area that potentially could be pulled into the progressive arena.  We are not exclusively urban or rural any more than we are exclusively white or brown, Christian or atheist.  Perhaps once you open up your mind to that you'll see the errors in your post.  It's too easy to lump people into stereotypes and its exactly what the right does on a daily basis.

    “Too often we honor swagger and bluster and wielders of force; too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of others.” ― Robert F. Kennedy

    by docreed2003 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:15:51 PM PST

  •  I'm wondering if you know anyone outside the city (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau, Keith930, canyonrat

    Or in CO?

    Because our tiny town of ten blocks of mostly third generation residents voted overwhelmingly for Obama. we too have AA, Hispanic, and gay people, always have.

    Might be time for a sabbatical, get out and see a little of the world.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:21:34 PM PST

  •  For another diary that I hope you write (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yeah, and rural people don't understand that if you're in a city, you can't just ask your neighbor for help. Cities don't work that way.
    Why not???????

    This is a topic that deserves its own diary.  Why do rural people assume that their neighbor is a source of help, while urban people don't?  

    Oregon:'s cold. But it's a damp cold.

    by Keith930 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:48:26 PM PST

  •  How demeaning and what nonsense... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    McUisdon, canyonrat

    but that's OK. You go right ahead and keep up w/ your prejudice against 'rural' folks. Yeah, keep it up.
    And oh yes, urban farming [sic], more like Facebook farming really. Let's dress up and pretend we're country folk then race home (stopping by our local Whole Foods for some extra delight) and watch some teevee while we putter away dreaming about feeding 7 Billion humans on the planet w/ our  Marie Antoinette 'urban farms.'
    To the author: extractive economies is all urban folks can see w/ regard to the magnificent rural beauty of this country. You take our water, you pollute our air our coastlines our highways and our waterways, you pull out all our earth-based resources (timber, fish, coal, etc) to feed your burgeoning and relentless growth, then, you have the nerve to say because we don't have "diversity" (note: I'm a woman of color writing this) our so-called rural ways are limited, racist (of course), xenophobic (tried some urban areas recently?), stupid, etc.
    Wow. For someone who more than likely considers themselves 'progressive' your wedge tactics do much harm to those of us living a small footprint in the woods protecting and nurturing our rural lands.
    Please, stay in your city forever, OK?

  •  As a rural voter in a very blue rural state, I (4+ / 0-)

    find your stereotyping deeply offensive.

    I live in northern NM in a county the size of MA with 40,000 people. It is mostly Hispanic and Native American. None of your stereotypes apply.

    I imagine people in Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire would also wonder what you are talking about, as would rural southern CO, and every Native American Reservation.

    Please stop teaching divisive stereotypes to kids.

    And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! -Leonard Cohen .................@laurenreichelt

    by TheFatLadySings on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 07:11:37 PM PST

    •  The exceptions prove the rule? (0+ / 0-)

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:31:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a fellow New Mexican, I have to agree with (0+ / 0-)

      you - at least in part - even as I tipped & rec'd the diary. I found the analysis about the growth of a tolerant mindset very compelling, but the Urban/Rural dichotomy was puzzling. For example, inner cities torn by gang warfare (Bloods vs. Crips) are not exactly models of tolerance.

      I'm in Albuquerque now, but when I first came to NM I lived in Grant County, that hugely rural chunk of the southwestern NM. I'd been in Abq for some years when I worked on Kerry campaign in 2004. I remember, in an effort to ease the throb of that devastating loss (remember how we all felt like we'd been punched in the gut), I was looking for place that did vote for Kerry. I found the records of NM's vote by county, and the highest votes for Kerry - both well over 50% - came from Grant and its even more rural neighbor Catron County.

      FOUR MORE YEARS ! A huge Thank You and {{{ group hug }}} to all who volunteered, donated, and voted to make this happen!

      by jan4insight on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 12:34:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  not Catron (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        by any chance did you mean San Miguel County?  Catron County is rather Mormon and Republican.

        •  No, I meant Catron. I was so surprised to (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          see the results - something like 54% for Kerry - that I read it over and over again, burning it into my brain.

          I do believe the demographics of Catron country have shifted somewhat in the last 20 years. Apparently some new housing developments sprang around Datil and such, and they became attractive to ex-Californians who brought their lib'rul values with them. Apparently it was enough to shift vote in that year, at least.

          Grant County, I am not surprised to see it go Democratic. When I lived there I often described at the place where old hippies retire. Plus, the Chicano population tends to  lean Democratic. So yay for southwestern New Mexico!

          FOUR MORE YEARS ! A huge Thank You and {{{ group hug }}} to all who volunteered, donated, and voted to make this happen!

          by jan4insight on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 10:10:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Is this how you filled in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    that class your forgot to plan?

    If so, well played :)

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:22:38 PM PST

  •  The Life and Death of the Great American Heartland (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    With it, so has gone and so goes the fate of the modern GOP.

    Hat tip to the late great Jane.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:30:09 PM PST

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