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WARNING  TRIGGER ALERT!!  WARNING  TRIGGER ALERT!!

In Africa.
To men.
In the mistaken belief that this will help in stemming the growth of HIV/AIDS.

The Global Fund (an organization primarily funded by the Gates), The World Health Organization and the US Government aim to circumcise some 28 million African men between the ages of 15 to 49. Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, has been aggressively promoting this campaign to African governments and is quite determined that as many African nations as possible adopt this program which was designed for them by Western experts.

This initiative has gained the overwhelming support of the State Department as well as the U.N. in spite of  mounting evidence that the RCTs (randomized controlled trials) performed in 2005 in Africa, which concluded that men who underwent circumcision were 60% less likely to contract HIV, were seriously flawed and administered largely by unqualified individuals with both financial and ideological conflicts of interest.
The Head of National Aids Council of Zimbabwe had this to say about this rather barbaric practice. See here...
Most men, after circumcision, harbor the false impression that they have been equipped with an invisible condom, he added.

Snip

“The HIV prevalence rate among circumcised males between the ages of 15 and 49 in Zimbabwe is higher than that of the uncircumcised males owing to the misconception that circumcision completely shields people from HIV infection.
Snip

“It is a worrying development that at a time when we are promoting male circumcision as a preventive measure to combat HIV, we are recording a high prevalence rate amongst the group that has been circumcised largely due to uninformed risky compensation behaviors,” he said.”

Opponents of this program  say that the practice...
... violates human rights, squanders scarce resources, distracts from more effective HIV prevention methods and promotes a false sense of security when in fact a circumcised man still needs to use a condom to be protected against the HIV virus.
Despite all that, however, Ms Clinton on behalf of our government, is pushing full steam ahead. This was taken from the joint communique which was issued after she visited South Africa in August of this year:
Minister Nkoana-Mashabane and Secretary Clinton noted the United States’ $3.2 billion contribution to South Africa’s HIV/AIDS programme which has helped South Africa reduce mother-to-child transmission of HIV, lower the costs of antiretroviral therapies, and scale up prevention, including through a $40 million grant to the voluntary Medical Male Circumcision (MMC) Programme.
This question came from Judy Mandelbaum in her article titled, Africa's male circumcision crusade: Boon or boondoggle? This is a question that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton should answer, imho.
Condoms have proven to be vastly cheaper and far more effective than circumcision when it comes to reducing the spread of HIV/AIDS, and they also reliably prevent other sexually transmitted diseases as well as unwanted pregnancies. Why aren’t the UN and the Western nations showering Africa with condoms instead of removing men’s foreskins in what looks like an unprecedented social engineering experiment?
The answer, to me, is very simple. They are doing it because they can. They can use black bodies as guinea pigs and get away with it. Shoot, this certainly wouldn't be the first time, would it?

                                                      *******

The idea that circumcision can cure AIDS have led to mob action such as shown in the picture below. That man was chased through the streets of Mbale, Uganda, captured and then forcibly circumcised. This is becoming an acceptable way to avenge perceived wrongs by males of rival tribes.

“Police in Mbale have fired teargas and deployed heavily to disperse hooligans forcefully circumcising people on the streets including non-Bamasaba.
                                         

You may be thinking that this doesn't concern you as it is being done over there. Think again. The proponents of this theory - having decided that the African campaign was widely successful - have set their sights on American infants.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) this week announced that a comprehensive review of medical evidence has shown that circumcision of newborn boys confers more advantages -- including reduced risk of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases -- than drawbacks.
Snip
Randomized trials have convincingly shown that adult male circumcision can reduce the rate of HIV incidence by more than 50% in high-prevalence settings in sub-Saharan Africa, and scale-up of circumcision is now considered part of a comprehensive prevention approach
Thankfully this effort is getting vigorous push back from concerned organizations.

This from Doctors Opposing Circumcision:

 

Infant boys do not engage in sexual intercourse so they are not subject to sexually-transmitted HIV infection. They, however, are subject to various complications of circumcision, including infection through an open circumcision wound with various pathogens, such as deadly CA-MRSA.38,39 Other risks include hemorrhage, exsanguination, and death;40 and various surgical accidents, including urethral fistula,41 penile denudation,42 and traumatic amputation of the glans penis.43 By the time today’s newborn boys became sexually active, HIV vaccine is likely to be available so circumcision today, in an attempt to prevent HIV infection in the distant future, is contraindicated.

Vaccine, as it is with other diseases, will be the best tool to contain HIV/AIDS. To that end, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (yes, the same ones who are supporting the circumcision of 28 million adult African males) have donated over $287 million to 16 research groups.
We applaud them for this even as we criticize them for their involvement in the circumcision program.

This policy of mass male circumcision  is being carried out in our name and with our tax dollars. Did you know about it? Shouldn't there, at the very least, be some discussion about this subject?

Please note that this is not about circumcision as practiced for religious or cultural reasons. This is only about circumcision as it is being promoted as a method to stop HIV/AIDS.

For additional information, please see:
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/...
http://www.trust.org/...
http://www.stopinfantcircumcision.org/...

Originally posted to JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 07:59 PM PST.

Also republished by House of LIGHTS and Kossacks for the Choice to be Genitally Intact.

Poll

Circumcising African men

29%23 votes
70%55 votes

| 78 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (9+ / 2-)

    866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

    by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 07:59:14 PM PST

  •  The world just gets weirder and weirder. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimene

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:12:42 PM PST

  •  A vaccine to prevent AIDS in 15 years? 'Hope' is (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimene, irishwitch, JesseCW, 2thanks

    not a strategy, as some say.

    Condoms are already available. There should be NO new cases of HIV in this country, yet the rate is at appalling levels.

    Why worry about Africa and its different cultures when the 'educated' Americans can't get it right?

    "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

    by glorificus on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:13:53 PM PST

    •  We can't get it right here, but we are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chimene, dskoe, 2thanks

      parading as experts in Africa.
      What is being done to young men under the guise of preventing AIDS is nothing short of barbaric.

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:17:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tempted to HR (9+ / 0-)

    Since this seems like an attempt to troll but I don't really know the feelings about this anymore.  I will say that it would be nice if people like you used language and arguments honestly.  Your poll, for instance, has very biased answers.  

    Why not present your side with some intellectual honesty and maturity rather than trying to act with those tools?  When other people/groups pass off propaganda as news/fact, do you appreciate it?

    It's like watching an unknown winning a boxing match vs. the world champ and asking him halfway why he didn't knock his opponent out in the first round.

    by bsmcneil on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:15:36 PM PST

  •  I thought this was about female mutilation, which (6+ / 0-)

    is removing the clitoris. But a foreskin? Good G-d, man get a grip.

    •  should be good G-d, woman, get a grip. Really. (6+ / 0-)
    •  Removing the foreskin (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberal Granny, 2thanks

      can as damaging to the male as female circumcision is to the female.

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:22:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh come on really? (7+ / 0-)

        "Good to be here, good to be anywhere."~Keith Richards

        by bradreiman on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:32:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You are wrong (5+ / 0-)

        A "Female Circumcision" is comparable to removing the head of the Penis and leaving the foreskin.  

        The only men who need a foreskin are prehistoric.  We have clothes today.

        •  Seriously? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, JesseCW, JoanMar

          I know plenty of guys who are uncircumcised. They are not prehistoric. The majority of men in the world, yes especially in the developed world, are uncircumcised.

          •  Uncircumcised men are naked savages. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JoanMar, Liberal Granny

            The bigoted subtext was really really hard to cipher, wasn't it?

            "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

            by JesseCW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:55:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  This (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JoanMar

            I don't know anywhere near enough about the program that is this diary's subject. I do know that a lot of men in the developed world are uncircumcized, though not from personal inspection. I can say, having had partners and lovers who were uncircumcized as well as circumcized ones, that the same type and amount of touch in basically the same places evokes a stronger positive response from the uncircumcized men than the circumcized ones.

            As long as the uncircumcized man learns from an early age to keep himself clean, an uncircumcized penis can be a joy to play with, speaking as a woman who enjoys that sort of thing.

            Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

            Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

            by Kitsap River on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:51:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I am quite aware of the horrors of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          female circumcision, thank you very much.
          And again, this is not a diary about the pros and cons of circumcision. This is a diary about circumcision being done as a way to stop hiv/aids.

          866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

          by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:04:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am back, having read this excellent diary. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JoanMar, JesseCW

            I am opposed to a program which promotes circumcision as a way to stop HIV/AIDS.

            Condoms are about 90% to 99% effective in preventing AIDS.

            Circumcision is about 10% to 50% effective in preventing AIDS, depending on the studies.

            Studies must be repeated to be confirmed. Just because a study is published, does not mean it is

            true. And studies must be evaluated based on other criteria as well, for instance, who paid for

            the study.

            This argument requires logic.

            If I have an effective method to accomplish a goal, I do not typically add a less effective, more expensive, more time-consuming, and/or riskier method to help me accomplish that goal.

            Examples may help:

            1. If I am driving an automobile at 60 mph, and the fastest human can run about 28 miles per hour

            (Wikipedia), I do not ask the fastest human to run behind my vehicle and push it to make the car

            go faster.

            2. If I am sifting flour for a cake, I do not use a colander before I use a sieve.

            3. If I have I perfectly good roof of asphalt shingles and wood that keeps the inside of my house

            dry, I do not hang a large canvas tarpaulin under the roof to keep the rain out.

            4. If the pistons in my car's engine are working fine, I do not remove the piston rings to improve the performance of the pistons' strokes in the cylinder.

            (As ever, JoanMar, I enjoy reading what you write. Thanks again.)

            •  As usual, 2thanks, you got to the bottom line (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW, 2thanks

              real fast.

              Condoms are about 90% to 99% effective in preventing AIDS.
              And this is true whether the man lives in an underdeveloped country, a developing country or the US of A.
              I do hope that this issue gets revisited with a whole lot less heat than this diary attracted. It is too important

              Re (male) circumcision itself, I have never had a strong position one way or the other. I know of the religious significance and respect it but also respect those who are from cultures where circumcision is not practiced.
              As a woman, I have "seen" both kinds and it is the man to whom the penis is attached that makes the difference, in my opinion.

              2thanks, I know this is a very important issue to you and I want to apologize if this diary has brought you even one nano second of pain. I will gladly delete if you this makes you in any way uncomfortable.
              Your support means the world to me. Thank you!

              866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

              by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 11:30:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sometimes we cannot create light without also (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JoanMar, Avilyn

                making heat.

                Thank you, sweet JoanMar, for offering to delete this diary. That is a generous gesture, but please do not do that for me or anyone else.

                Participating in this diary, though somewhat painful and triggering, has brought me healing.

                We have to take responsibility for our own actions and our own feelings. I came into this diary-room: My choice. Though mutilated, I choose to thrive.

                We have no control with DK4 over those who come into our diaries and try to change the subject, or make jokes about people's pain, or become defensive for who-knows-what reasons, or make comments to create anger.

                By the way, I really appreciate your Trigger Warning at the top of the diary.

                There seems to be a Daily Kos trend to allow people to discuss issues related to sexual and genital abuse with more light and less heat. I applaud that.

                •  You are (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  2thanks, Avilyn

                  a light bearer. A very special person. To share time and space with you is an honor.
                  ((((2thanks))))

                  866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

                  by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:29:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thank you, dear JoanMar, thank you. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JoanMar, Avilyn

                    You have a special brilliance, intellectual and spiritual. I am not quick of words, and I cannot now discern the other adjectives floating nearby that modify your brilliance.

                    I have to leave this diary-room for a while, perhaps the evening, and may not be able to comment, or may not choose to. I do have work to do tonight.

                    An insignificant sidebar:  Sometimes in a diary-room the very best response is no response at all. Those who misquote and twist statements and do other things I have mentioned in this diary ... do so for more reasons than I can know or imagine. But their comments remain for all to see.

                    Off Topic:  Oh, our man Joe Biden is on "Parks and Recreation" tonight! I have been in great spirits since the elections 9 days ago.

                    {{{{{ JoanMar }}}}}

                    2

                    •  Not insignificant at all. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      2thanks, Avilyn
                      Sometimes in a diary-room the very best response is no response at all.
                      I applaud you for your restraint (and if you had responded, I would have applauded. You can't win with me :)
                      I am so sorry you had to see those hateful comments.

                      I have to go search for Parks and Recreation. I am not familiar with it. I know Joe will put a smile on my face.
                      Enjoy your evening, 2thanks!

                      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

                      by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:48:09 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Additionally - none of these studies have even (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JoanMar, 2thanks

              investigated what impact male circumcision has on Male to Female transmission of HIV.

              It doesn't even seem to be worth investigating to those promoting this.

              "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

              by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:33:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  female genital mutilation... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, 2thanks

          ... covers a variety of procedures and does not solely mean a clitoridectomy.

          An analogous procedure to male circumcision is the removal of the clitoral hood, exposing the bare clitoris underneath.

          •  Not analogous (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Liberal Granny

            Given its different physical climate, removal of the clitoral hood would create MORE avenues for infection - which is not at all the result of male circumcision.

            •  infection is a well known/studied side effect (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JoanMar, JesseCW, 2thanks

              of male circumcision.  The two procedures (male and female) are absolutely analogous.

              In fact, there are documented cases of the Mohel transferring the herpes virus to the infant male.  Do some research on the procedure called "Metzitza ba Peh".

              Even when performed by medical personnel, male circumcision presents many routes for infection at the site of the wound -- especially if the patient is wearing diapers.

              •  Being more emphatic doesn't make it so (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Liberal Granny, mconvente

                The VAST majority (over 99.99%) of male infant circumcisions are trouble free and heal near instantly (newborn cell regeneration is almost visible, it's so fast). You are quite wrong.

                ALL female circumcision is dangerous and pointless. It has no reason to exist other than to destroy female sexual response - that is THE INTENT of it. It causes infection almost uniformly and on a lifelong, ongoing basis.

                Anti-circ zealots need to learn to make their case without hyperbole and lies. They especially need to avoid the utterly false equivocation of male and female circumcision, which are not analogous on ANY level.

                •  You're knowingly comparing apples and (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JoanMar, 2thanks

                  oranges simply to defend a practice which has no net health benefits.

                  This is a practice that began in the US gentile population during a period of extreme irrational fear of male masturbation - so extreme that Sears and Roebuck were selling "Anti Self Pollution Devices".

                  Today, you'll still find many American women supporting it because they mistakenly believe that reducing a mans enjoyment of sex will prevent premature orgasm.

                  The vast majority of male infant circumcisions performed in the West are free of major complications.  This is not true in the third world.

                  Removal of the clitoral hood isn't done in the West - but "Clitoral hood reduction" is.  It has a 4.4% complication rate opposed to a 6% complication rate for adult male circumcision.

                  "This is bad because Muslims do it to girls and we don't" and "This is good because we've done it to boys for the last hundred years too" is really all you've got.

                  "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                  by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:45:39 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Didn't work to control masturbation (0+ / 0-)

                    Did it? And there is absolutely NO evidence that pleasure is inhibited in circumcised men - none.

                    •  And it will not work to control hiv/aids. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      2thanks

                      Can you come off your pre-saddled horse for one second and listen to  those who are on the ground dealing with this issue?
                      They say that it is not working. It is a waste of money, time and energy; and that is before we even think of the indignity of it all.

                      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

                      by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:57:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  No, cliterdectomy is. "Female circumcision" is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar

          the removal of the clitoral hood, and it is as directly analogous as it's possible to get.

          "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

          by JesseCW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:54:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then I guess direct analogy is not possible (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Liberal Granny

            Because they are as different as night and day. It's a foolish comparison that adds nothing to the anti-circ argument. It's biologically and medically ignorant and it diminishes the TRUE mutilation that is done to African and Muslim girls.

            •  Argument by assertion isn't argument at all. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              2thanks

              You can't actually seem to explain how removing half as much tissue from a nearly identical organ is vastly different.

              You can shout "ignorant".  You can claim that people who have done more combat FGM than you ever will are "diminishing the true mutiliation that is done to African and Muslim girls".  

              But these aren't actually arguments.  They're pronouncements.

              Both procedures routinely have horrific and traumatic results when performed without anesthesia and  without basic sterile tools and without a skilled medical practitioner.

              I do not diminish at all how damaging it is to girls and young women - I simple do not sit silently while  those who want to mutilate boys and young men seek to diminish how damaging the abuses they advocate are.

              "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

              by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:31:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  That's true, if you mean literal female (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar

        circumcision.

        Most Americans don't know the words  cliterdectomy or infibulation, though, and they conflate them with "female circumcision".

        "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

        by JesseCW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:53:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, these are not conflated (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Liberal Granny

          There are three types of FGM, and type I, the least severe, includes removing the hood (which in no way corresponds with male circumcision, because removing the clitoral hood automatically impedes normal biological function) AND partial or complete removal of the clitoris itself. That's type I - the other two types are even more horrifying, as you probably know.

          •  There are the same number of nerve endings (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            2thanks

            in the clitoris as the glans.

            The skin, in it's natural state covered by a foreskin or hood, is the same thickness.

            In both cases, the exposed tissue becomes less sensitive after a period of discomfort as the skin thickens.

            Both procedures run a very high risk of infection if performed in unsanitary "third world" conditions.

            If you think the varying types of FGM are not being conflated in the comments in this diary, I do not believe that your are reading this diary.

            Several people have asserted that "female circumcision is removing the clitoris".

            Anytime you expose an extremely sensitive organ that's meant to be protected, you're going to impede normal biological function.  That's not something that only happens to mutilated women and does not happen to the male infants Liberal Granny wants carved up.

            "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

            by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:25:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Lie (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Liberal Granny, mconvente

        And an outrageous one that really needs to stop.

      •  Nonsense. One is real mutilation, removal of a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mconvente

        clitoris. When a clitoris is removed there is no longer any chance of sexual satisfaction. When a foreskin is removed, I can tell you from experience that sexual satisfaction is still there.

        Only a foreskin is removed by someone who botches it there may be problems. But most (like 99.9%) are removed with care and there is no subsequent problem.

        •  Just to remind you that this diary was (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          2thanks

          not intended to be about the circumcision war that it seems you are so familiar with. This was meant to be about a campaign to circumcise some 28 million African ostensibly to prevent hiv/aids.
          But since you persist in fighting your old battle here:
          You and yours keep throwing around this "99.9% are removed with care and there is no subsequent problem."
          That means that .1% of men/boys suffer after this procedure is done.

          During 20th century, more than
          120 million foreskins were severed from American penises
          , more than in any other country in the world.
          If my math is correct, that is over a 100,000, right? And that is only for the US. Do they have a right to disagree with you, Liberal Granny?

          866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

          by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:12:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Where's RealityBias when yo... (4+ / 0-)

    ...oh, the hell with that!

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:21:10 PM PST

  •  I'm more than slightly disappointed that (9+ / 0-)

    everyone here is cheerfully piling on against the diarist, as if the whole matter is just a joke, because once upon a time a monomaniac got carried away with anti-circumcision diaries.

    If JoanMar's description of this program is accurate, then it is indeed outrageous -- classic Eurocentric missionary behavior.

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:27:14 PM PST

    •  O? I wasn't aware that there was a (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chimene, blueoasis, crose, 2thanks

      backstory.
      I wondered about the hostility...
      Thanks for the clarification.

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:31:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Think it runs deeper (4+ / 0-)

        You see discussions about circumcision here, or on other liberal-leaning sites, and you see a flood of angry rhetoric. I suppose that telling people that they altered their child's lifetime experience of sex is going to make them defensive. And when you use language that implies that they are somehow similar to people who perform genital mutilation...well, they take it personally and lash out. Combine that with someone who sets out to shock people and its a recipe for chaos.

        •  * Sigh * (5+ / 0-)

          I don't mind admitting that I am more than a little disappointed  at the angry rhetoric.
          I came to this from checking in on the fight against female mutilation. I was shocked to learn that our government was actively promoting this program in Africa. It is worth noting that even after the procedure is done, these men still need to wear condoms to protect themselves. So why not just offer free condoms? I thought this liberal community would be as outraged as I am.
          Instead I get attacked as a troll of all things.
          And to make matters worse, I am sleepy as all hell right now. lol.

          866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

          by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:59:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

          The baseless claim that parents have ruined their child for life, absent ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER, is what makes these conversations so touchy. Also the fact that the millions of perfectly normal, sexually happy men are being categorized as "mutilated" ... leads to very nonproductive discussions.

          •  You and yours brought that argument (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            2thanks, Avilyn

            in this diary. You set up your straw men and then proceeded to kick them over.

            866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

            by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:15:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I think you are.. (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG, erush1345, mconvente, Munchkn, elmo, cryonaut, agent

    ..making condom use and circumcision mutually exclusive for the sake of your argument. Also I have to be skeptical of a quote from an organization of doctors that says;

    "Other risks include hemorrhage, exsanguination and death"...

     Exsanguination IS death and  hemorrhage. What kind of doctor uses that language?

     I'm not saying there isn't an argument to be made but it just seems like a one sided one that includes more than a modicum of bias to get to it's point.

    "Good to be here, good to be anywhere."~Keith Richards

    by bradreiman on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 08:38:13 PM PST

    •  Please note. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JoanMar, Avilyn

      Hemorrhage is profuse blood loss. Hemorrhage may be contained inside the body. Think giant bruise.

      Exsanguination is to be drained of blood. If one is in the process of losing all one's blood, there are ways to prevent death, but these are not 100% effective.

      Death can be caused by infection which spreads to vital organs, blood, heart, kidneys, or throughout the baby boy..

      "Hemorrhage, exsanguination, and death" are among the many possible deleterious effects that may or may not be serial and may or may not be present in one little boy. Many other serious consequences of genital mutilation are not mentioned in this quoted paragraph.

      I see no "modicum of bias." imho, dear bradreiman, you have taken text out of context and misinterpreted it.

  •  Who is we? You, the Emperor of the Universe? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, erush1345
  •  Is the problem that ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoanMar, Kitsap River, 2thanks

    ... rumor in certain areas of Africa has attributed circumcision with the ability to prevent AIDS? TV ads after midnight in America prove that people'll believe just about anything. Is someone really promoting circumcision as an AIDS-preventative?

    Even though I'm a more than "interested" party--do they perform it in all military hospitals for births to military families?--I don't know the benefits or detriments to the sugery. Needless to say, I have even less knowledge about local African customs and beliefs.

    Looks like you bumped into a dkos meme, JoanMar. Stick to your guns when you want to get to the bottom of the story! I don't think SOS Hillary Clinton would fall for quack medicine, so was there an advertising campaign to grab people's attention that got out of hand? (Something like the old pot commercials showing someone taking their first puff, then in the next frame jumping off of a building?).      

    I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

    by Tortmaster on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:04:08 PM PST

    •  A lifeline! lol! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JesseCW, Kitsap River, 2thanks

      Thanks for popping in, Tortmaster.
      Yes, it seems that I stepped into something bigger than I was aware of.
      Good people make mistakes and i think that is the case with Hillary in this instance. She (and all the proponents of this program) is getting a lot of push back on this.
      (and I am so sleepy now that I have to sign off.)

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:11:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm rather interested to know... (7+ / 0-)

    If you truly can find "twice as many sources."

    I'd like to see them.

    And I want scientific studies, please, not opinion pieces. You make the claim that you have "all the evidence on your side." If that is true, it should be rather easy for you to provide boatloads of irrefutable evidence from credible sources backing up your claim.

    It drives me absolutely insane when people with an ideological agenda dismiss evidence which has been painstakingly sought out out of hand because it conflicts with their personal view on the matter.

  •  Speaking for myself: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, twigg, Kitsap River, JoanMar

    A doctor cut off my foreskin 3 days after I was born; my loving parents paid him, but I am the one who suffered.

    I am opposed to infant circumcision.

    Circumcision is associated with many risks. I ask new parents whom I know personally in the real world to ask a lot of questions before they agree to have their child circumcised, to let their little boy grow up and make his own decision when he is an adult.

    I have not read this diary completely, but I support intelligent and calm and light-creating discussion of infant circumcision.

    I have noticed that diaries on this subject attract a lot of heat-creating comments.    

    (Disclosure: JoanMar is one of my favorite people on Daily Kos, and I just happened to see this diary.)

    I will be back later, dear JoanMar.

  •  My opinion on this: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, 2thanks, JoanMar

    Infants can't decide.

    Adults can.

    Far as I'm concerned, it should be a choice left up to the adult said child will become.

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:40:06 PM PST

  •  Oh boy, not one of these diaries again... (0+ / 0-)

    Here we go again...

    It is done. Four More Years.

    by mconvente on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:40:41 PM PST

    •  Though, I might add (0+ / 0-)

      that the issue at hand - that circumcised men feel that they don't need to use condoms anymore - is one that deserves serious discussion.

      But when you title your diary "The USA Encourages Genital Mutilation", you're already starting a charged atmosphere that likely damage any efforts at real discussion.

      I am not looking for a fight.

      I am looking for a discussion.

      I say your diary title suggests otherwise.

      It is done. Four More Years.

      by mconvente on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:45:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You should buy a dictionary. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        2thanks, JoanMar

        You should look up the words "mutilate" and "genital".

        "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

        by JesseCW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:00:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, get over yourself (0+ / 0-)

          Circumcision is a widely conducted practice that may be beneficial toward limiting the spread of STDs (and the issue at hand here, HIV).

          The reason why I get pissed off at circumcision cuckoos is that they are sooooo adamant that I'm missing something because I happen to be circumcised.

          Honestly, anyone that has way more concern about another person's circumcised penis than said person does clearly has some screws loose.

          And I'm not talking about female genital mutilation (i.e. - involuntary clitoral resection).  That indeed is bullshit and needs to be stopped.

          But infant circumcisions of males?  Honestly, I really don't understand why people get so worked up about this issue like it's life or death.  My god.

          It is done. Four More Years.

          by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:38:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, you may have a point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avilyn

        about the title. I do think it is true and I did want to attract eyeballs...and I do find the whole campaign quite offensive.
        But maybe a less abrasive title may have done more for my cause.

        866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

        by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:23:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  These diaries always remind me of discussions (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2thanks, twigg, Kitsap River, JoanMar

    about declawing cats.

    People who did something brutal to a defenseless being they deeply care for aren't capable of rationally discussing what they did.

    They have to pretend that it was loving, or that it was harmless, because admitting it was wrong is more than they can deal with.

    So, good luck having anything other than a pie-fest when 30-40% of the participants are really either just defending what they did to their sons, or defending what their parents did to them.

    "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

    by JesseCW on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:02:40 PM PST

    •  The UK dealt with that by deeming (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2thanks, Kitsap River, JoanMar

      the practise "cruel and unusual".

      Any vet caught perfoming de-clawing would be struck off.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:39:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  UK national health service also stopped paying (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kitsap River, twigg, JoanMar, JesseCW

        for genital mutilation of baby boys shortly after World War II.

        ... and I think "struck off" means having their license to practice veterinary medicine revoked. "Struck off" imho is not a reference to circumcision. ;-)

        Thanks twigg. Always great to see your comments.

        Dear Kossacks -

        Way off topic: You may not know this, but twigg originated the name Lyin Ryan. Thanks for that, too, twigg! Well done, I say....Yes we did! :-)

      •  I believe much the same was done (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        twigg, JoanMar, 2thanks, JesseCW

        with clipping of ears and/or docking of tails in certain breeds of dogs. This eventually shamed the Americans into following suit - but only simewhat.

        In field-bred retrievers, we dock dewclaws very early, but that's because a dog with an intact dewclaw can catch it on something in the field (like a hidden piece of barbed wire, for example), tear the dewclaw up the leg, and thus become very severely injured. There is nothing cosmetic about removing dewclaws.

        Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

        Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

        by Kitsap River on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:01:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tail-docking is still allowed. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar, 2thanks, Kitsap River

          There are rules:

          1. The remaining tail has to cover the rectum, and vulva in females

          2. It has to be done within 7 days of birth ... or by a vet if later.

          It's a bit weird that I should know this, but it's because I used to keep sheep and tail-docking was standard. The practise is done in sheep because it vastly reduces the chances of "fly-strike", but retains more than enough tail for protection.

          The owners of some breeds of dog hated the restrictions because they used to dock puppies tails to a tiny stub, and all for appearance.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          by twigg on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:46:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  dear JoanMar - Excellent diary - Thanks! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kitsap River, JoanMar

    You have brought a lot of light to the subject, as have some of the commenters.

    I republished this diary to House of Lights.

    •  House of LIGHTS: An Invitation (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kitsap River, JoanMar

      (Loving Inspiration, Giving Hope To Survivors)

      A place for survivors of physical, sexual, psychological, and emotional abuse, assaults, and bullying.

      A place for the people who support them.

      A quiet place for all voices to be heard.

      A safe place where we can learn to educate, support, and protect our children and each other.

      If you would like to join House of LIGHTS, please kosmail SallyCat.

      [Please remember that joining any Daily Kos group does not automatically deliver that group's diaries to your Stream (DK inbox). To receive House of LIGHTS diaries in your Stream, you will have to Follow our group (click the heart on any of our House of Lights pages).]

    •  Thanks again, 2thanks! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2thanks

      Thanks for your advocacy on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves.
      It seems that my title may have done more harm than good since it evoked memories of some flamefest that I wasn't even aware of.
      This is a topic worth discussing especially on a liberal blog, imho.
      I will definitely be checking out House of LIGHTS.

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:21:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unseemly. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    elmo

    The diarist writes: "They can use black bodies as guinea pigs and get away with it. Shoot, this certainly wouldn't be the first time, would it?"

    I fail to see any inherenly racist intent or malice in this program. While it is certainly fair to discuss the medical and disease preventative value of male circumcision, I really do find the implication of racism in this diary unseemly and the above quote is particularly distasteful.

  •  Voluntary in South Africa, (7+ / 0-)

    so maybe that doesn't rise to level of your charges of barbarism and black people as guinea pigs.

    Circumcision reduces the rate at which women get infected three-fold. This is not insignificant. The AIDS rate here is appalling, about 1 in every 4 people.

  •  I don't care either way. (6+ / 0-)

    It's not cruel and it doesn't damage anyone. There's overwhelming empirical evidence about that.  On the other hand, by the time today's baby boys come to sexual maturity I expect we'll have a vaccine anyway.  Not every contentious issue is one that we have to feel strongly about. Maybe Africa (which, it turns out, is composed of various countries each with their respective governments, some of them even democratic) should decide for themselves.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:00:16 AM PST

    •  I don't agree with you but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2thanks

      thanks for your input.
      And like you, I do hope that a vaccine in just over the horizon.

      866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

      by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:26:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  hr'd for the claim that this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    agent, Hrubec, mconvente

    has to do with racism -

    "The answer, to me, is very simple. They are doing it because they can. They can use black bodies as guinea pigs and get away with it. Shoot, this certainly wouldn't be the first time, would it?"
    When the reality is it doesn't. Plenty of studies saying that it helps. And even if the programs are misguided, to inject a racial angle into it is inflammatory and idiotic. Nothing new though from silly circumcision opponents. Except for it stops being silly when they try to force us to change our own laws and call it genital mutilation.
  •  For those who would like to learn more - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoanMar

    Pictures of male genitalia and anatomical terms:

    CAUTION: Large photographs of man bits. If you do not want to see male genitalia, do not click on this link. Do not go to this award-winning site if a picture of a penis might harm you in any way.

    http://www.geocities.ws/...

    This page has excellent links at the bottom.

  •  Understanding Circumcision (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoanMar

    I have been an anti-circumcision activist for 15 years. I have saved many little boys from genital mutiliation.

    If you were born with a penis that is not now intact and you had no part in that decision, I am sorry for your loss.

    If you get angry at me for saying that, or call me names, or think I am attacking you or your culture, or think I am using the wrong phrasing, or want to Hide Rate me, I think that says more about you than it says about me.  

    Asking questions is good, but I do not have time to explain everything. You will have to do your own research. Here are few more links

    Losses from Circumcision

    Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths about Male Circumcision (Part 1)

    National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)

    •  You seriously have problems (0+ / 0-)

      Why are people more concerned about my uncircumcised penis than I am?! Seriously, what the fuck is up with that shit?  Can you and others please answer that question.  For people like you to be soooooo concerned about my circumcised penis that you "feel sorry for my loss" as if my foreskin is some sentient being is so fucking loony that I can't even comprehend how someone would say stuff like that.

      What is it with liberal politics that brings all the anti-circ crazies to our side?

      So a medical procedure has failure rates? (even though literally 99.999% of circumcisions are done without any problem whatsoever).  There is inherent error in all medical procedures - should we just stop doing any procedures because there's a small chance things might go wrong?  We might as well end all modern medicine if that's what people really believe.

      Honestly, anti-circ people are fucking insane.

      It is done. Four More Years.

      by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:51:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  For Survivors: From Being a Victim to Thriving (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JoanMar

    How have I suffered from my genital mutilation?

    Physically, emotionally, psychologically, socially, spiritually, maritally, functionally, sensorily, immunologically, aesthetically, and other ways too.

    Recovering from my genital abuse has involved healing in all these areas. Part of my healing has involved becoming active in the anti-circumcision movement, like the mother whose child was killed by a drunk driver who founded Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD), or the mother whose son was killed in a drive-by shooting who founded Save Our Sons And Daughters (SOSAD). I have also been an active member of House of LIGHTS and Tree Climbers, 2 Daily Kos groups. We heal ourselves by blessing people on the road behind us.

    Anti-circumcision activists are slowly reducing the percentage of newborns who get circumcised in the United States. At this time, only about 1 out of 3 little boys in the U.S. now gets genitally mutilated.

    I have never written of my actual recovery on Daily Kos before, but one of the ways I have recovered from my genital mutilation is by growing more skin. It is possible to recreate a functional foreskin without surgery. Pulled skin stretches and grows. Going through the very long physical process almost forces one to also focus on healing in the above-mentioned areas as well as other areas.

    If you feel victimized by those who chose to mutilate your penis, part of your healing may be to restore the skin of your penis. Sites such as this one may help:

    Restoring for Men: Your Foreskin Restoration Community
    As far as I can tell, thousands of men have restored or are restoring their foreskins this way. There are many different methods, some of which are free, but they all require time and determination.  
    •  Not a single specific (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mconvente

      Sounds like you "suffered" because someone convinced you that you suffered. And now you actually ARE mutilating yourself needlessly. Sad story.

      •  This is just the most offensive post I (0+ / 0-)

        have read in a long, long time. This is beyond disgusting.
        You should do the classy thing and apologize!

        866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

        by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 11:50:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No I stand by it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mconvente

          He hasn't given a single reason that he actually suffered. I think the word "suffering" has a meaning, as does the word "specifically". How did he suffer - specifically?

          •  He. Does. Not. Owe. You. (0+ / 0-)

            Any. Specifics.
            You are seeking an excuse for your stunningly offensive attack. That my diary could be used by you this way is very infuriating.
             

            866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

            by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:35:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh please, what is up with you loonies? (0+ / 0-)

              Really, equating circumcision to kids killed by drunk drivers?  Are you serious?  What kind of people says stuff like that?

              When someone (like 2thanks definitely, maybe you too though I'm not 100% sure) is more concerned about my - get that - MY uncircumcised penis, I don't really know how to respond other than that's some crazy shit.

              Why are you soooooo concerned about my circumcised penis?  It works totally fine.  Really, what's with the obsession about other people's circumcised penises?

              It is done. Four More Years.

              by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:00:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I could care less about your penis - (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                2thanks

                circumcised or uncircumcised.
                As far as I know you are not now living in an African country and you are not black.
                That, if you may remember, is the subject of my diary.
                Circumcision as a means of stopping hiv/aids.

                866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

                by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:28:18 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right, that's why I said not 100% for you (0+ / 0-)

                  But 2thanks, with him basically turning the foreskin into an anthropromorphic entity, that's some crazy stuff right there.

                  If you were born with a penis that is not now intact and you had no part in that decision, I am sorry for your loss.
                  I never knew that losing a foreskin could be as damaging as a mother who had a child killed by a drunk driver or a child sexually abused.  And it's not my words, it's 2thanks just right damn above:
                  Recovering from my genital abuse has involved healing in all these areas. Part of my healing has involved becoming active in the anti-circumcision movement, like the mother whose child was killed by a drunk driver who founded Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD), or the mother whose son was killed in a drive-by shooting who founded Save Our Sons And Daughters (SOSAD). I have also been an active member of House of LIGHTS and Tree Climbers, 2 Daily Kos groups. We heal ourselves by blessing people on the road behind us.
                  That's some pretty crazy equivalences without any back story as to why 2thanks is making the equivalence.  Would 2thanks really be willing to say face to face to a mother who lost her child to a drunk driver that the loss of his foreskin is an equivalent event?  Every single mother in that situation would slap him faster than the speed of light, and rightly so because that's an outrageous claim.

                  Nevertheless, the subject matter of whether circumcision can or cannot impair spread of HIV is due proper discussion, and you even admit in another comment that the title was eye catching.  Fair enough.  I can reason with that.  I'm a scientist, so I have a strong interest in health and related fields.

                  But 2thanks is seriously off the rails, and it provides a major disservice to the issue you tried to raise.

                  It is done. Four More Years.

                  by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:06:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, your response to my diary was the disservice. (0+ / 0-)
                    Nevertheless, the subject matter of whether circumcision can or cannot impair spread of HIV is due proper discussion
                    That is the tone you should have adopted before you allowed yourself to be dragged into the attack on the straw men.
                    You should have been a leader.
                    You could have given me the benefit of the doubt (as I would have done for you) but the lure of the wolf pack was just too strong for you to resist.

                    And I would really appreciate it if you'd stopped using my diary to attack one of the kindest, most supportive, sweetest members of this site. You have made your point. Give it up.

                    866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

                    by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:20:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  how... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JoanMar

                    Is 2thanks off the rails? Because of his concerns expressed regarding his own experience and own body?! Who are you to say how he may feel about himself?

                    Disagree, fine.  Leave out the personal attacks.

                    As the diarist stated, she was looking for discussion, not a fight.

                    All the suffering of this world arises from a wrong attitude.The world is neither good or bad. It is only the relation to our ego that makes it seem the one or the other - Lama Anagorika Govinda

                    by kishik on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 04:04:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Are you fucking serious? (0+ / 0-)

      Are you really comparing being circumcised to a mother that has lost a child to drunk driving or from gun violence?

      Are you fucking serious?  Jesus fucking Christ what kind of person says something like that?!

      Wow.  I am literally speechless at how someone could really equate circumcision (even if the procedure had complications) to kids killed from drunk drivers.

      What is with you people?

      It is done. Four More Years.

      by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:55:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you would get off your high horse (0+ / 0-)

        a second, and step away from the pre-packaged rage, you may see that he is talking about his experience.
        What happened to him. What he suffered. He is allowed to talk about himself, right?

        866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

        by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:31:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, but you then bash someone who asks what (0+ / 0-)

          happened to him.

          See this comment thread here.

          He's talking about himself and making all these wild references to mothers of children killed by drunk driving (a pretty serious event).  If you're going to equate the loss of a foreskin to the above, and child sexual abuse, and kids dealing with violence, you better at least be willing to provide a story behind why you're making those equivalences.

          It is done. Four More Years.

          by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:02:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The sheer, undiluted arrogance! (0+ / 0-)

            You know, I have seen you around on this site and we have not always agreed. I remember that. But even when we have disagreed I have respected your views and your right to your views. It seems that this issue have pushed you over the edge.
            How in heaven's name can you presume to tell someone who has suffered, how and when to talk about his suffering.
            And to demand that he give you specifics so that you can decide whether he has suffered? WTF!!
            Get a grip. Please.

            866-OUR-VOTE!!(866-687-8683) Lyndon Johnson: The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

            by JoanMar on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 05:10:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fine, consider this the last response (0+ / 0-)

              It just baffles me how a botched circumcision (even one with the most serious complications, like a required amputation of the penis due to infection, which is likely to be extremely, extremely rare, especially in first-world nations with proper medical care) could be a situation that ever compares to a mother losing her child because of some drunk driver or child sexual abuse.  You know, like the kids who were LITERALLY anally raped by Jerry Sandusky so hard that they started bleeding.

              Try telling those kids or their parents that circumcision is a grave abuse that belongs in their category.  They'd kick your ass in a heartbeat for daring to make the comparison.  It's just laughable.

              And so 2thanks is a nice, sweet person.  That's fine.  But anyone that treats a foreskin with all seriousness like a sentient entity (i.e. - "I'm sorry for your loss") is bizarre.  It's not, it's a piece of extraneous skin.  Just like the appendix, a vestige of evolution.

              So yeah, this issue does set me over the edge with people like 2thanks because they make it seem like circumcision is the greatest injustice in the entire world.  That's simply a ludicrous position.  It's all the same with the anti-vaxers, who are nuts in their own way.

              And finally, if you wanted to actually have a legitimate discussion about the topic you brought up, rather than causing your so-called "wolf pack" to arrive, you shouldn't have made an inflammatory title that you admit was done to attract eyeballs.

              So fine, enjoy your anti-circ crusade.  I'm sure Jenny McCarthy and PETA will welcome you with arms wide open over to the realms of inflammatory movements.

              It is done. Four More Years.

              by mconvente on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 06:00:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, no time for more discussion now. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kishik, JoanMar
    •  ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2thanks, JoanMar

      Be at peace, dear 2thanks...

      Ignore them.

      All the suffering of this world arises from a wrong attitude.The world is neither good or bad. It is only the relation to our ego that makes it seem the one or the other - Lama Anagorika Govinda

      by kishik on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 04:05:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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