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BBC:

Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials. It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions. The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state. The US said the expansion plan was counterproductive and would make it harder to resume peace talks.

"We reiterate our longstanding opposition to settlements and East Jerusalem construction and announcements," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said.

Earlier Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called for an end to settlement building and a return to peace talks. An Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said some of the new units would be built between Jerusalem and the settlement of Maaleh Adumim. Plans to build settlements in the area, known as E1, are strongly opposed by Palestinians, who say the development will cut the West Bank in two, preventing the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

In a separate article, their Middle East Correspondent writes:
Plenty of attention in the build-up to the vote was centred on a technical question about UN procedures which could have far-reaching political implications - would this upgraded status give the Palestinians access to UN agencies and the International Criminal Court?

If it did, then they would be able in theory to pursue Israel for its settlement policies on the West Bank - widely seen as a clear breach of international law.

Israel rejects that legal interpretation - but it may not be anxious to see the issue tested in court.

Even if the Palestinians didn't decide to exercise that option immediately, the threat that they might do so at a moment of their choosing would be a powerful diplomatic tool.

Israel is in trouble, and I don't envy their position. On the one hand they're fighting Hamas. We're talking about a group of people there who really do dream of standing in Jerusalem after pushing the Israelis into the sea. Anyone critical of Hamas ends up snuffed out, shot as "collaborators" or in one case dragged through the streets tied to a motorcycle. And then they have the Palestinian National Authority who've learned how to play the diplomatic game.

But when we see actions like this, one gets the impression that Likud is thumbing its nose at the international community.

I think that Benjamin Netanyahu and Likud are leading Israel down a disastrous road. Ariel Sharon started them down this path. The list of pitfalls is a long one, but to select just a few, there's the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, with the death of Rachel Corrie, the wars with Palestine and Lebanon, and the Gaza Flotilla raid which culminated in the execution of a 19 year old American citizen by Israeli commandos (Democracy Now) (Guardian), and the deaths of eight others.

Throughout all of this, Netanyahu and the Israeli Government have been completely unapologetic for all of the harm they have caused to human life and the stability of the region. Their policies have had consequences.

Turkey was once Israel's closest ally in the region. That friendship may never be repaired. Germany and the UK are both nations who have historically stood by Israel through thick and thin, supporting them as strongly as the United States. All three nations have sold military equipment to Israel and trained Israeli personnel. Germany and the UK both abstained from the most recent UN vote, refusing to stand by Israel's side as they have in the past.

And now, Likud is thumbing its nose at the international community, and carrying on with destructive and counterproductive policies.

It has always been in Israel's interest to come to a decision sooner rather than later. Justice does not wait forever, and the unjust treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government isn't something that the world, or even my generation of Americans, are willing to ignore forever.

And the Palestinians realize this. To some degree, I think that the Israelis who say that the Palestinians don't really want to come to the table right now are right.

Why would you bargain now when your position will be better in the future? Why would you bargain now when the Israelis aren't willing to accept your terms? The Palestinians have wanted a state of their own since 1948, and they certainly aren't willing to surrender more ground to Israel. Abbas' strategy, the cessation of attacks from the PLO, is working. They have now won more by portraying Israel as the aggressor in the court of public opinion, than they have in decades of failed negotiations.

If the Palestinians can organize real, nonviolent resistance to Israel, as they have been in the west bank, if they can stop the rocket attacks from Gaza, and if they can continue to make Israel look like an aggressor, they'll win far more through international pressure than they would through negotiation with Israel.

Israel's position here is untenable, and I don't envy them. But their aggressive actions over the past decade have dug them into a hole. Likud's most recent action, in expanding west bank settlements, seems to show that their future policies will involve a lot more digging. I'd like to say that if Likud stopped digging, they'd return Israel to a place of strength and respect, but I don't know that this particular hole can be un-dug.

Update, courtesy of Mahakali Overdrive. Clinton to Israelis: Support Abbas.

Big update, IMHO. Diary-worthy:

http://www.haaretz.com/...

Speaking at the 2012 Saban forum at the Willard InterContinental Washington DC Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that without progress towards peace Israel will be forced to choose between "preserving democracy and the Jewish identity of the state." ‫Clinton rejected Lieberman's pessimism on concerning the Palestinian Authority's capability to govern its territory and bring about a lasting peac.e
"With very little money, no natural resources, they have accomplished quite a bit, building a security force that works every single day with the IDF. They have entrepreneurial successes. They are nationalistic - but largely secular. Israel should support them."

"Some Israelis claim Abbas is not a partner for peace", Clinton continued, possibly with the Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman, who sitting just several feet away, in mind. "Well, I think that should be tested."‬

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (24+ / 0-)

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 03:25:20 PM PST

  •  It's a slow motion annexation (17+ / 0-)

    that has always been the plan. They just sped up the film a bit to throw a snit for the UN vote. Same old same old.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 03:42:18 PM PST

  •  Colonial expansion (7+ / 0-)

    Hopefully, statehood will stop or reverse it.

    Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Kurt Vonnegut

    by ToKnowWhy on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 03:59:49 PM PST

    •  Hopefully, although I'm not aware of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wolf10, bluedust

      any case in which colonization has been stopped through non-violent means. Whether that be outside intervention or internal resistance.

      It would be nice to see a break in that pattern, but I'm not holding my breath.

      The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 04:09:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Israel has been a colonial project from day 1. eom (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lepanto, bluedust

      The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

      by Wolf10 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 04:17:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a really complicated issue (5+ / 0-)

        and I have to somewhat disagree because there was already a longstanding Jewish presence in the region which was relatively peacefully coeexistant with other ethnicities there. Other than some American Leftist, one of the few who claims that Israel is implicitly colonial are a small, far-right group of Israeli Jews whose views are (in my mind) pretty specious.

        Also, the notion of any indigenous people is a bit colonial in its own right because it presupposes that there were ever a pure and pristine time when tribes or nations weren't already in constant flux over boundaries and borders. The establishment of nation-states which "belong" to a group of people is a relatively new line of thinking.

        For me, I feel that we must not continue colonial cycles now, as our sensitivity to the problems of war and occupation (physical or economic) has expanded dramatically. It was not "wrong" to create an "Israel." It was pretty successful. And if there had been follow-up to the original plan, which was a creation of a Palestine too, we wouldn't be questioning the legitimacy of Israel at all. That's a slippery slope best to be avoided. Hamas has obviously taken it to an extreme with their charter. Sometimes our anger at the Israeli Government's quasi-apartheid system may cause us to want to "unrecognize" them, but you know, this is a nation filled with diverse people, a majority of whom don't support the current arrangement but who are proud of their nations (not to promote awkward patriotisms; I'm not so great at this one).

        "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:16:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If as is so often the case, the Holocaust and (0+ / 0-)

          other crimes against Jews committed predominantly by Europeans, is a reasonable rationale for the creation of a Jewish state, then why not create that state from lands of the oppressors as opposed to the lands of innocent bystanders?

          While it may be impossible to ever completely right the wrong done to the Palestinians, nor to European Jewry for that matter, but we should not pretend that Israel possesses a right to exist where it exists based on moral principle.

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:47:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Israel has a right to exist (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OllieGarkey, debedb, Brecht

            There's a problematic issue with saying otherwise. Just like it's troubling to say Palestine has no right to exist. Both exist. Both have a right to exist. Ignoring anyone's right to exist sets a terrible precedent all around. Everyone has a right to exist when they... exist. They do not, however, have a right to keep anyone else from either existing or doing so productively and happily.

            "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

            by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:13:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you are conflating states and people. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lepanto, mahakali overdrive

              Your comment starts with "Israel" and "Palestine" and swiches to "Everyone."

              States don't actually have a "right" to exist. They either do or they don't exist.

              And I can't recall any other state but Israel demanding that other entities recognise its "right to exist." That's  a bizare formulation. The usual request is a simple request for recognition.

              The only thing standing between you and your dreams is insomnia.

              by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:42:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What other country has had its right (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OllieGarkey, Brecht, johnny wurster

                to exist disputed? I believe that's where this is coming from. By "everyone" I meant "every nation" or something to that effect.

                I presume we're on the same side of this issue, so I hope you will listen to me in good faith and recognize that my aim isn't to be contentious but rather conscientious. Again, denying the existence of a nation which does have UN status and which does actually exist sets a dangerous precedent, particularly when singling any one out to continuously legitimize its existence.

                I recognize Palestine's right to exist, for example.

                I recognize the right for various trouble-ridden nations to exist as well. Somalia, for example, exists. Syria exists. Iraq exists. South Sudan, which is a very recent creation, exists. North Korea exists.

                We don't usually question the "right" of any of these nations to exist. So why do we question the right of Israel to "exist"? It's a bit of a moot question. It does exist, factually, and refusing to recognize that is to ontologically and existentially denigrate its citizens, period. I won't see that done to any people on this planet. Not Palestine. Not Israel. Not South Sudan. Not South Africa. Not Libya. No Nation, even a troubled one, should have its very existence questioned because that opens the door to legitimize dehumanization of its populace. If a country ceases to exist, such as Tanganyika, it will be duly noted in all of the history books as a factual incident. Otherwise, it looks like wish-fulfillment of a troubling sort.

                "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 09:12:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am listening to you in good faith. Stand down! (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm just getting to know you on this issue, so I'm making comments/statements (I guess they should really be questions) to get more info.

                  The only thing standing between you and your dreams is insomnia.

                  by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 10:07:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  it is a response to those who believe that it does (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                NOT have a right to exist.  Other than that, I would tend to agree with you.

            •  You completely side-stepped the issue I raised (0+ / 0-)

              as to a moral principle which one might invoke that would allow one to characterize modern Israel anything other than a foreign conquest and occupation of other people's land.

              To equate Israeli claims with those of Palestinians is rationally absurd, morally indefensible.

              As to U.S. security and national interests, the subsidizing and defense of this imperial outpost is becoming ever more counterproductive and dangerous.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 07:41:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  this is (5+ / 0-)

        quite funny.

        First off, most countries with which you're acquainted are, in large part, 'colonial projects'.  Places like, oh, say, the U.S.  Canada.  Brazil.  French Guiana.  Mexico.  Tons of states can trace in their origins some migration/movement and, some displacement.  

        phone call...but more to come....

  •  minor correction, Palestinian homes were bulldozed (13+ / 0-)

    not settlements, for which Corrie paid the ultimate price trying to stop that. Israel and US have been on the wrong side of history with respect to the illegal land grab that's been going on there since 48. Thank you for the excellent post.

    "O you can't scare me, I'm sticking to the union" - Woody Guthrie from Union Maid

    by dkosdan on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 04:13:53 PM PST

  •  palestine has committed war crimes of its own, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib

    so they might not be as eager to race to the ICC as some expect.

    •  They weren't a nation before yesterday. (0+ / 0-)

      There's nobody to hold responsible.  Israel, on the other hand . . .

      Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

      by Celtic Merlin on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 09:54:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you don't have to be a nation to be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        held responsible.  quite the opposite, in fact: individuals, not countries, are parties.  surely Hamas leaders are guilty of war crimes, so its not likely they'll rush to the ICC.

        •  But the PA Might Not Mind (2+ / 0-)

          On the other hand, it was the PA which persuaded the UN to pass the resolution to recognize Palestine.  The PA leaders just might not mind seeing the Hamas leaders from Gaza being called up by the same court as the Israeli leaders for the exact same incidents.  From the PA's point of view, it would be two-fer, eliminating two opponents with the same shot.  What's not to like?

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:28:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  so people have no agency unless they're a nation? (0+ / 0-)

        really annoying when rockets launch themselves, isn't it..

        •  The PA was told months ago. (0+ / 0-)

          That since they weren't a nation, they had no standing there.  If the court says that you don't exist, how can you be held accountable - since after all, you don't exist?

          The facts are simple.  Learn them.

          Israeli leaders, on the other hand, should be brought to justice at least based on the contents of the Goldstone Report.  Those facts, too, are simple.

          I have to move along now.  This weekend promises to be a very busy one.  I'll check back on Monday.

          Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

          by Celtic Merlin on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:23:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not sure that's a big a problem as (2+ / 0-)

      you might think - my understanding is that only members of the ICC can ask it to initiate a prosecution, so the only way that Israel could get the ICC to do anything about a Palestinian would be to join the ICC itself (assuming that the Palestinians actually do that).

      And if both sides were members of the ICC and knew that they were potentially on the hook for their actions, it might cool down some of the more extreme actions on both sides.

  •  From The Guardian's article on this development: (10+ / 0-)
    The Israeli move drew strong criticism from Europe. "If Israel confirms these decisions officially, then  it is an exercise in the most cynical, self-obsessed and self destructive policy-making imaginable," said one European diplomat.

    He also condemned the timing, just as the Jewish sabbath began and the government shut down so that it could not be reached, as "a breathtakingly brazen attempt to dodge the bullet of international condemnation … All in all, outrageous," he said.

    "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

    by Brecht on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:03:10 PM PST

    •  From an ex-US ambassador to Israel too (6+ / 0-)

      http://www.nytimes.com/...

      excerpt

      The settlement of E1, a 4.6-square-mile expanse of hilly parkland where some Bedouins have camps and a police station was opened in 2008, could further increase Israel’s international isolation.

      “This is not just another few houses in Jerusalem or another hilltop in the West Bank,” said Daniel C. Kurtzer, a former American ambassador to Israel and Egypt. “This is one of the most sensitive areas of territory, and I would hope the United States will lay down the law.”

      After a day in which Israeli government officials insisted that the United Nations vote was a purely symbolic one that had not changed anything on the ground, the revelation of the development moves late Friday stunned and outraged even some of Mr. Netanyahu’s supporters.

      “A number of important countries are telling us that they think it’s wrong to do settlements, and these are our best friends,” noted one senior Israeli government official, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of being fired. “After they say this directly or indirectly, the immediate response is to build more settlements, even in one of the most controversial areas, E1? How does that make sense? What is the message the government is sending its best friends?”

      It sounds like there is strong internal criticism in Israel of this move as well, and yes, the U.S. should move on this, and yes, this is putting Israel in International jeopardy and is a bad move that puts me ill at ease (I want the best for both Palestine and Israel here).

      "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:21:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Israel feels defensive enough to go on the offense (4+ / 0-)

        You work hard to balance both sides' views, while feeling loyalty to Israel. So, to be clear, I'm far more interested in understanding than blame when I say this.

        Israel feels let down by old allies, who abstained on the UN vote. From that same Guardian article:

        Israel regards France has having led the charge after President François Hollande abandoned his opposition to the Palestinian UN bid.

        Britain abstained and was isolated enough to feel it had to justify its position by saying it would have supported the resolution if the Palestinians had renounced the right to accede to the ICC and had agreed to immediately renew peace negotiations.

        The Israelis were particularly stung by the German decision to shift from opposition to abstention. Haaretz reported that Germany moved because of Israeli intransigence on Jewish settlement construction and because Israel had not met previous commitments to the German government. The paper said senior Israeli foreign ministry officials were "shocked" by Berlin's decision.

        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

        by Brecht on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:48:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Confused here... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht, OllieGarkey, Nailbanger, PeterHug

          I don't have any loyalty to Israel. I am half-Jewish, American, secular, and have never been there. I think I'm literally in the middle when it comes to wanting to respect a nation filled with people who were born there and have lived there and are doing well there, and also wanting to see an apartheid state rise out of the rubble to have their own autonomy, culture, and economic control. Just to be clear on this point. I am chagrined at the US vote during the UN meeting, and I hope that the settlement retaliation prompts us to see that the Israeli Government is behaving irrationally in dubious faith. Thus said, I don't want Israel to suffer or anything. I do want the Israeli Government to be chequed, however. And I want to see Palestine flourish and succeed.

          I am also not interested in blame. To me, that winds up subverting the entire issue of how to move forward toward peaceful negotiations.

          I cannot begin to understand how the U.S. feels justified here even when Germany abstained. The news from SoS Clinton (below) feels like maybe a turning point. But again, I'm not sure. I am sure that I feel like taking action right now and telling my Government that they are NOT speaking for me at this point.

          "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:06:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then I was just being overcautious, lest I step on (3+ / 0-)

            your feelings. And not reading your comments carefully enough, since you do express your views.

            "I cannot begin to understand how the U.S. feels justified here even when Germany abstained"

            Do they feel justified? Or constrained? I mean, when Obama attempts an I/P balance, we have votes in congress saying there's no daylight between the US and the Israel position. Then there's the constraint of standing tough by our number one ally.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:37:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, overly cautious and understandably so (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OllieGarkey, Brecht

              given how contentious this issue is for many. That's why I spelled my views out as clearly as possible. Not a problem. I may not have been clear enough previously (I'm used to being subtle in my thought as well as my presentation and sometimes am subtle to the point that people miss my position, sorry. Very common on this site).

              Scary to think we're being constrained. If so, who's calling the shots? Sigh... Congress is horrible on this issue. I hope that there is a bit more nuance in the executive branch because we will not find it elsewhere. All those fundies,  neocons, and GOP? Nope.

              "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 09:18:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  People don't even laugh at my jokes, I'm so subtle (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                or something.

                It's too nuanced for me to understand; I haven't been keeping up enough. But I enjoy reading the discussion.

                "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                by Brecht on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 10:34:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ditto! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brecht

                  My classes find me deadpan sense of humor hard to interpret, but they laugh instead at the most curious things, like my accent! :D

                  I'm an analytical person. I'm also very Philosophical. Persuasion, I can do well, but I have no investment there. Feelings? I keep mine guarded usually unless they serve some greater purpose.

                  As the indomitable Steven Wright once said, "There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."

                  "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

                  by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 10:52:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Steven Wright is right again. He is sharp. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mahakali overdrive

                    Jung was right too, at least in his Psychological Types (which Myers-Briggs derives from). One of the hardest things is to be philosophical and emotional, conscious on both axes, without getting a head/heartache from the interference.

                    "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                    by Brecht on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:49:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Clinton has vocally opposed settlements before.. (0+ / 0-)

            although seems to have toned it down over the last couple years, perhaps because of the 'Obama = anti-Israel" meme that got too much traction--not quite sure.

            The U.S. won't support any unilateral move--even a symbolic one--by the Palestinians because of the huge diplomatic message it would send to Israel.  If they did approve the move, then they could have approved the fulll statehood move last year--but it wasn't going to happen.  I see both sides--on one hand, it's a ridiculous impediment that Palestine can't get UN recognition b/c of the U.S.--but at the same time, it is a purely symbolic move to a UN that is pretty staunchly anti-Israel.  So pretty much all I/P manoeuvres in the UN are really just political grandstanding.

  •  Shame! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lepanto, Celtic Merlin

    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

    by Lefty Coaster on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 06:27:51 PM PST

  •  This reads as very balanced to me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, OllieGarkey, Brecht

    It's true that there is a definite and distinct disrespect to the International community with this move, which is in violation even of Israel's agreement with the U.S. (although other than a sternly worded letter, I'm not seeing any further condemnation from the U.S. about these settlements, which are a big deal in that they blockade an implementation of a two-state solution).

    The Israeli Government is deeply at odds with Israeli citizens on this. From every statistic that I've read, there is a majority level of support from Israeli Jews for a two-state solution, period, other than from the increasing farther Right-Wing.

    Moreover, Israel is a good nation with great people and has been successful, a model of democracy in so many ways, with exemplary education. In short, I admire Israel's development. But I cannot -- CANNOT -- say that imperiling this by painting themselves into a corner with the support of a few tiny nations in Oceania, and only three major nations otherwise, is a wise idea.

    I also disrespect Hamas, for the reasons that you've indicated. But I do not disrespect Palestinians, and I feel that under more moderate leadership, such as we're seeing with even Abbas, it would be beautiful to see them develop from the ash and rubble. At least they would have an existential autonomy. With that, and with development, perhaps they could reject Hamas outright and perhaps they would.

    What's happening is a bad feedback loop with two groups both learning to hate the other group with increasing efficacy. That cannot help Israel. Israel cannot build a wall of housing developments to try to ensure a one-state solution when its international standing for this is alienating.

    I want to see Israel thrive. I want to see Palestine thrive. And for this, I am very angry with how this is being handled by the Israeli and American Governments both. This doesn't promote peace. It promotes further dispute and tension. It is reactionary and isolationist and frankly really juvenile. For those who want the best for all of the citizens of both Israel and Palestine, we ought to return to pressuring the American Government to rethinking its views here.

    No one gains with this eleventh-hour move.

    "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:04:13 PM PST

    •  Thanks! It's important to recognize the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht, mahakali overdrive

      complexities. I appreciate your comments upthread, too.

      I think the United States has an important role to play in helping both nations grow and thrive, and in helping move the peace process forward.

      And that means trying to see both sides, which is what I'm trying to do here.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:31:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  BIG - SOS Clinton to Israel: "Support Abbas" (6+ / 0-)

    Big update, IMHO. Diary-worthy:

    http://www.haaretz.com/...

    Speaking at the 2012 Saban forum at the Willard InterContinental Washington DC Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that without progress towards peace Israel will be forced to choose between "preserving democracy and the Jewish identity of the state." ‫Clinton rejected Lieberman's pessimism on concerning the Palestinian Authority's capability to govern its territory and bring about a lasting peac.e

    "With very little money, no natural resources, they have accomplished quite a bit, building a security force that works every single day with the IDF. They have entrepreneurial successes. They are nationalistic - but largely secular. Israel should support them."

    "Some Israelis claim Abbas is not a partner for peace", Clinton continued, possibly with the Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman, who sitting just several feet away, in mind. "Well, I think that should be tested."‬

    "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:29:33 PM PST

    •  Quoted. (3+ / 0-)

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:57:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I need to get my tech issue resolved (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht, OllieGarkey, dkosdan

        I've been not able to write diaries easily due to a tech issue :/ Elfling's been helpful, but I have to be more on top of it (I've gotten used to it...)

        If I could, I would diary on this in a heartbeat.

        I feel like as U.S. citizens, this is a moment where we might want to take action and tell our Government what we think of SoS's point of view here. I am aghast about the settlement building: I feel like that's like flipping the bird at us because, as I understand it, we were told last week that this would not be an issue, period. And now, boom, final hour, and this. Either we're bluffing or Israel is. We both look foolish unless we clarify that.

        "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 08:10:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I tried to build a settlement (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SCFrog, Lepanto, ZenTrainer, Celtic Merlin

    in my neighbor's back yard once. He got pretty mad.

    I told him that my holy book clearly states that my ancestors lived there 3000 years ago but he just wandered off muttering something about getting his shotgun.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 07:48:54 PM PST

  •  3000 settlements? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lepanto, Celtic Merlin

    Then they don't need any aid from Uncle Sugar if they can afford that.  Let's keep the $3 billion and use it here.

  •  When Clinton speaks.... (0+ / 0-)

    When Clinton speaks, and 'is highly disappointed' in Israel, compared to 'condemning, Palistinians...we see the only semantics.

    We see that 'insuring Israel's security, while ignoring Israel killing children in the middle of the night as they sleep in thier homes.

    We see the destruction of churches and masjids by bulldosers to remove and disinfranchise a semtic community...well...sort of wrong, while marking up a Synagoge built by Russians in an occupied land is horrid and unspeakable.

    Of course, there is the rights of women...well, some women anyway...the ones who lose thier sons to Israeli bombs, or American drones are collateral damage, while those women who lose thier sons to men who fight back against the occupation of thier land is deplorable.

    So...we kind of see the woman with forked tounge.

    Oaths and alleginaces only become valid after being tested in adverstity.

    by Nur Alia Chang on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:00:24 AM PST

    •  She told Israel to support Abbas and recognize (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan

      the PA. No forked tongue there. It was a direct statement. Clinton said, in regard to the PA, in front of A. Leiberman, "Israel should support them." She also said that, despite some thinking Abbas couldn't be a partner in peace, test it out and see because the PA is entrepreneurial, secular, and essentially able to engage in the peace process. That is what she said to A. Lieberman, reported just yesterday evening in Haaretz.

      "Counsel woven into the fabric of real life is wisdom" - Walter Benjamin

      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 08:25:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Settlements map - West Bank and Jerusalem (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OllieGarkey

    Here's a map showing how fragmented the Palestinian areas have become by the building of settlement homes since 1986. It also shows barriers, present and proposed as well as restricted roads

    http://peacenow.org.il/...

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