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  • China announced that police forces in the southern province of Hainan will now board ships travelling through the disputed waters of the South China Sea:
    The South China Sea is Asia's biggest potential military trouble spot with several Asian countries claiming sovereignty over waters believed to be rich in oil and gas.

    The shortest route between the Pacific and Indian Oceans, it has some of the world's busiest shipping lanes. More than half the globe's oil tanker traffic passes through it.

    New rules, which come into effect on Jan. 1, will allow Hainan police to board and seize control of foreign ships which "illegally enter" Chinese waters and order them to change course or stop sailing, the official China Daily reported.

    A carrier strike group led by the USS George Washington cruised through the disputed waters in October. For more info on the dispute, click here.
  • Colombia and Nicaragua exchanged sharp words over their dispute for oil-rich waters:
    So far, the two countries have engaged in a bureaucratic chess game as the government leaders flex their political muscle, with military ships from both countries being sent to the disputed area.
    While the International Court of Justice at The Hague ruled on November 19 that Colombia does in fact own the regional islands of San Andres, Providencia and Santa Catalina, it gave the expanse of some 120 square kilometers of oil-rich ocean to Nicaragua. Colombia, which has long fought to keep the area, has rejected the decision and officially left the Bogotá Pact, a 1948 treaty which recognizes ICJ rulings to find peaceful solutions to these types of conflicts.  
  • Tanzania and Malawi are disputing the border at Lake Nyasa:
    The most threatening time was last August when the war of words between the two countries took a turn for the worse after the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation Bernard Membe issued what appeared to be the official statement of the Tanzania government.

    It followed the revival of a long time claim by Malawi that the border with this country in the Western side is the shores of Lake Nyasa that includes Mbamba Bay and other areas around the lake. In fact the former Malawian leader, Dr Hastings Banda once claimed Njombe, Songea and Mbeya to be part of Malawi!

  • South Korea is angry at Apple Maps for using the Japanese name for a set of islands disputed between the two countries. Seems like everyone is mad at Apple Maps.
  • Belize and Guatemala are making progress on their territorial dispute.
  • Canada and Denmark settled their artic circle dispute.
  • Finally, in Redwood Falls, MN, a brutal battle over six inches of land:
    That six inch strip of land was Jones’, had been his or his father’s for as long as they’d been alive, and he didn’t care what some new surveyors claimed.
    Those metal pins had been in the ground of Jones’ lawn for longer than anyone in that council chamber had been alive, had priority, and should be respected. Jones claimed that if the city abided by the new survey and legally recognized the six inches of grass belonged to Smith, there would be consequences. There would be a lawsuit, and Jones would demand the city reimburse him for all the property tax he and his ancestors had paid on that six inch strip of grass going back for decades. At that point, the city council members basically threw up their hands, admitted they didn’t know what to do and would have to refer the matter to the city attorney for study.
  • Fighting over territory. The human condition. Are you engaged in any territorial disputes?


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Comment Preferences

  •  Pretty soon the GOP will be asking (4+ / 0-)

    "Who lost the Spratly Islands?"

    I'm not sixty-two—I'm fifty-twelve!

    by Pragmatus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:33:34 PM PST

  •  when i was a child (14+ / 0-)

    i often battled for territory in the back seat of my parents' cars.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:34:23 PM PST

  •  Fighting over land (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, Eikyu Saha

    All land is stolen land.

    •  Stop OTIM. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There is a basic human behavioral pattern, when we encounter something that no one else owns or firmly controls, to say "Oh, This Is Mine," and just pluck it.  

      We need to teach people that this is unacceptable.  When you go to a national park, you are told many times over that just because you see a shiny rock, it doesn't mean you can take it. This message needs to be applied globally.  

      Even when land isn't pre-owned, when people say "Oh, This Is Mine," they deny access to it by others.  It is theft.  

      It is probably not realistic to try to undo a thousand years of such theft, but we might have a chance at reducing new instances of theft, whether in Palestine, the South China Sea, or the many new fracking sites in the U.S. and elsewhere.

      Stop OTIM.  

  •  I guess we're all a bit touchy... (4+ / 0-)

    Pardon our dust. Sig line under renovation.

    by Crashing Vor on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:37:04 PM PST

  •  Misspelling in post - Colombia not Columbia [eom] (4+ / 0-)
  •  last year, Nicaragua and Costa Rica were arguing (9+ / 0-)

    a territorial dispute that was actually pretty interesting.  As I understood it, part of the border between the two countries was set in the 19th century at a particular river. Well, in the 200 years since then, the river has shifted course by a number of miles, leaving a strip of very fertile agricultural land that both countries are now claiming as theirs. One country (I forget which) claims that the border is where the river is NOW, while the other claims the border is still where the river USED TO BE.

    An interesting question.

    So far as I know, the international courts are still arguing over it.

    There's been tension between the two countries ever since the 80's when the Contras were using Costa Rica as a haven during the US war against the Sandinistas, but also recently because a lot of desperately poor Nicaraguans are illegally crossing into Costa Rica to take shit-jobs on the coffee and banana plantations.

    •  There's a similar situation in the US (7+ / 0-)

      between the states of Arizona and California, where the southern reaches of the Colorado River have wandered quite a bit over the years.  Every so often there is a commission which redraws the official boundary.  The last one was (I think) about ten or twelve years ago.

      Incidentally, the two states very nearly went to war over Colorado River water in the early part of the 20th Century.  Both had state militias drawn up on each side of the river, ready to fire--the federal government had to intervene.

      I'm not sixty-two—I'm fifty-twelve!

      by Pragmatus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:49:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Northern Islands of Japan/Russia (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Japan couldn't have cared less about the islands until the late 19th century.  But nations get greedy. Japan invaded Taiwan, Korea, China, areas throughout the South Pacific, and even set up its own dream colony in Manchuria.  But in the last days of WW2, seeing that Japan could not defend Hokkaido and the Northern Islands, Russia pounced (Truman drew the line at Hokkaido).  Now Japan wants the islands back -- because it wasn't as if, prior to 1945, they had been, like, playing for keeps.  Of course they would have given all that stuff back that they conquered!  Of course!  And so should Russia.  

        Last year, Medvedev was willing to make a concession.  He didn't give them the islands, but he did give them a nicely plump middle finger.  

      •  Look at the Mississippi River.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ....where Kentucky, Missouri, and Tennessee meet.

        It looks like the Mississippi is trying to make an oxbow lake by making a direct path - the border between Missouri and Kentucky/Tennessee is in the middle of the channel, but the Kentucky/Tennessee border is a line.

        9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

        by varro on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:42:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see how this is in dispute (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It should be based off of where the river was.  Otherwise, one side could make a land grab by doing something to purposely redirect the river.  

        •  This is the problem. (0+ / 0-)

          Say Farmer Jones has a nice piece of arable land next to a big river.  Suddenly the river changes course and flows over Jones's property instead of its old course, while creating another piece of dry, arable land where it used to flow.

          By your recommendation, Farmer Jones would be out of luck.  His land would remain exactly what it was, only now it would be under x-number of feet of water and no good to him.

          Boundary commissions are set up to deal with these very issues.  In this case, the newly-dry land would probably be deeded to Farmer Jones in place of his old land, because otherwise who would own the new land?

          I'm not sixty-two—I'm fifty-twelve!

          by Pragmatus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:54:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Wiki on the river dispute, a new ocean one up (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

      by divineorder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:53:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Remember, Dec is SAD. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSzymeczek, roadbear

    December is Seasonal Affective Disorder Month. If you're a caregiver or know someone who is, remind 'em to be sure to have complete information for any doctor who might see their loved one to make a diagnosis.

  •  Good one BBB, you seem to be on a roll these days! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, OLinda

    Climate Change on my mind as we cruise back from Navajo country to Santa Fe, NM.

    See why:

    On The Lands of the Navajo, Ancient Ruins, and Our Civilization's Imminent Collapse

    Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

    by divineorder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:44:17 PM PST

  •  engaged in any territorial disputes? (13+ / 0-)

    The Orange Cat has decided that he owns my computer chair. He has the range of the rest of the place, but this tiny island is worth fighting over. His dastardly incursions include sliding into the space between me and the chairback, working a wedge action as I move, annexing more territory, inexorably. Eventually he has occupied most of the chair and my very hegemony is threatened.
    My massive military advantage can be brought to bear, of course, all options are on the table, but I'd rather exhaust diplomacy before exploring that route.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:46:02 PM PST

    •  Only at night (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      in bed, when Mr. PSzymeczek tries to encroach on my space.

      You can't keep a mighty tree alive (much less expect it to thrive) by only spritzing the fine leaves at its tippy-top. The fate of the whole tree depends on nurturing the grassroots. - Jim Hightower

      by PSzymeczek on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:23:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lord Horatio Nelson, my devon rex, has claimed... (0+ / 0-)

      the charger for my new laptop to warm his ass. Later, he'll conduct a boarding action on my lap to get me to carry him upstairs for a nap with mommy.

  •  Neighbours (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda, sagesource, JeffW

    Neighbours is an Oscar-winning Canadian short film from 1952, depicting the escalating territorial rivalry of two neighbours over a small flower that appears on the property line between them.

    Psst! Meet me at the Electoral College campus. The baggers will never find it!

    by lotac on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:47:38 PM PST

  •  I have territorial disputes (4+ / 0-)

    with my cat all the time.

    The reason the "Silent Majority" is silent is because they don't exist.

    by cjenk415 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:48:18 PM PST

    •  I am having territorial disputes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      with Angus, the rather large Maine Coon cat, Minnie & Ruby (two Siamese) and Max (Boston Terrier) while I am recuperating from knee replacement surgery.

      They keep pushing me off the 48 inch wide bed as I work on my laptop.

      They are winning.

  •  China (5+ / 0-)

    ... they claim everything. Next they will be claiming the western half of the US because there are so many Chinese people there and because maybe Admiral Zheng He might have visited.

    Someone needs to put a stop to this Chinese nonsense. Whether it is the islands that are Japanese (look at any pre 1960 map), Taiwan (an independent country) or the areas of ocean far from China now claimed (YIKES!),  (not to mention Tibet and XinJiang) China is being, shall we say ... an asshole.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:50:21 PM PST

    •  meh. no different than the co-prosperity sphere (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JML9999, JeffW
      The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere (大東亜共栄圏 Dai-tō-a Kyōeiken) was a concept created and promulgated during the first third of the Shōwa period by the government and military of the Empire of Japan. It represented the desire to create a self-sufficient "bloc of Asian nations led by the Japanese and free of Western powers".

      yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

      by annieli on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:57:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The difference being... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        se portland, JeffW, ayoosilver

        ...that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere is dead as doornails except in the over-excited minds of a few Japanese extreme right wingers, while Chinese imperialism is alive and well.

        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

        by sagesource on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:18:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  in the minds(sic) of anti-communist Sinophobes (0+ / 0-)
          Chinese imperialism is alive and well

          yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

          by annieli on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:41:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  If it's wrong for China to claim Taiwan now, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      … it was always wrong to support Chiang Kai-Shek's invasion of the island (and slaughter of the people there — do a web search on "February 28, 1947").

      The Kuomintang wiped out a generation of Formosan / Taiwanese leaders in the period following February 28, 1947. And right up until the early 1970s, the U.S. was right there along with them, insisting that this regime was China.

      If Taiwan is not China, why did it hold China's seat in the United Nations up through 1971?

      The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

      by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:14:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  These are pointless and trivial arguments (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The only thing that matters is the opinion of the people of Taiwan today. How many of them actually want to be part of China the way that, say, Hong Kong is now? Very few -- I believe around five per cent.

        If the people of Taiwan ever decide by majority vote that they want to be another Chinese province, then there will be no arguing with them. But as of today, they haven't, which means that Chinese territorial claims on Taiwan are imperialism pure and simple.

        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

        by sagesource on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:21:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  oxymoron: the KMT and majority vote (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The question of "Matsu and Quemoy" became an issue in the 1960 American Presidential election when Richard Nixon accused John F. Kennedy of being unwilling to commit to using nuclear weapons if the People's Republic of China invaded the Nationalist outposts.....The PRC fired around 450,000 shells at the Quemoy islands in the conflict. The shells have become a recyclable resource for steel for the local economy. Since the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, Quemoy has become famous for its production of cleavers made from PRC bomb shells. A blacksmith in Quemoy generally produces 60 cleavers from one bomb shell and tourists often purchase Kinmen knives as souvenirs together with other local products.

          yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

          by annieli on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:45:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  No — history counts. Consistency too. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Facts and principles are important. Unless one simply wants to stir up resentment and hate against a particular country or ethnicity, for political convenience of the moment.

          Fact: to create today's Taiwan, mainlanders crushed and replaced the original people of Formosa. Mass murder still matters.

          Selective historical forgetfulness may be convenient, but it's unconvincing. So many disputes boil down to, "History doesn't count, except when (I say) it does."

          Legitimizing, rewarding, incentivizing crush-exterminate-replace is evil. Even as realpolitik, it's a recipe for things getting messed up and staying messed up for generations.

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

          by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:46:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  HUH???? (0+ / 0-)

            "the original people of Formosa"? Who were they? the aboriginals??? the Chinese who came over 300 years before???

            Facts on the ground matter the most. Taiwan is a country. It has every prerequisite to be called a country (money, central bank, self government, military, ............) The only thing stopping the international recognition is the pigheadedness of Beijing. It is an international disgrace./

            There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

            by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:14:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Either way... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It doesn't appear to me that China has any claim to Taiwan.  

        The reason it held China's seat instead of China is because it's a different country.  Arguably the wrong country was recognized as being China, but that doesn't make China and Taiwan the same country.

        •  Taiwan officially calls itself "Republic of China" (0+ / 0-)

          … even today.

          All during the period it held China's seat, it claimed that it was China, and the U.S. agreed.

          It was a one-party dictatorship under the KMT. The rubber-stamp legislature allocated seats for all the mainland provinces, filled with KMT cronies (whose positions were permanent, elections not being possible in the places they purported to represent).

          Official maps that still show the ROC as all of China even include areas the People's Republic long since ceded to neighbors or otherwise gave up claim to.

          That's history. Those are the facts.

          Now, people and societies do change their minds over time. Certainly there is a case that can be made for independence and various alternative routes to it.

          The case just shouldn't be based on a "we have always been at war with Eastasia", down-the-memory-hole view of things that turns the true reality and history upside down and denies known facts.

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

          by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:27:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Case (0+ / 0-)

            ... how can you make any case ... except for international recognition?

            There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

            by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:15:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fact: Taiwan situation is a result of a civil war. (0+ / 0-)

              KMT regime and Communists were not two countries fighting, they were parties to a civil war inside one country.

              Formally, it could be argued that Taipei and Beijing must first lay the technical state of "civil war within one country" to rest, before anything else can happen. No one else can change that status for them.

              Time alone doesn't make technical states of war or civil war go away — even if many years go by, eventually they have to be resolved diplomatically with some kind of treaty.

              For example, World War II ended in 1945. Yet the status of Germany wasn't fully settled until 1990–1991, when a treaty was finally signed by the two German states and the four victorious Allies.

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

              by lotlizard on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 12:37:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  What planet do you live on????? (0+ / 0-)

        Taiwan is an independent country. China has no right legally, or morally, to Taiwan. The people of Taiwan want no part of China. (if you allowed a free vote with no Chinese intimidation tactics)

        Interestingly letting Taiwanese go to the Mainland in the late 1980's resulted in an increase in support for independence as people saw for themselves that the KMT propaganda of the time was BS, and that Taiwan society was actually quite different. Now Chinese visiting Taiwan are seeing the same thing.

        China is only using a racist view of "Chineseness" to make its claim, something that we should abhor ... It would be like arguing that Canada and the US should be one country because they both have lots of white people.

        Taiwanese society has made remarkable progress since the KMT dictatorship finally ended. Unfortunately Chinese society has yet to make similar advances.

        There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

        by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:10:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It use to be "What is red turns to purple" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      China seemed content to wait for America and the West to fade. Red is a pure color, purple is muddy. But recently, whether it is ports in Pakistan and Africa, or hard lines on islands that are little more than rocks, they seem to have be taking a more active role.

      I agree, it is something to watch out for. But they have internal economic problems that worry me more. What happens if China implodes? And I think it could happen. Most of the population is "still fucking peasants as far as I can see," to complete the lyrics referenced in you sig.

      If this is a sign of what the new party leaders have in store, hold on to your hats, we are in for a bumpy ride.

      It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

      by se portland on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:26:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just reverting to tradition.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      se portland

      I'm worried that they will want Brunei one day because of the existence of the Lanfang Republic. But maybe they don't want to remember the Lanfang Republic, because it was a democratic state headed by an elected president, and so makes nonsense of authoritarian Chinese government claims that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix.

      As Dutch imperialism encroached upon modern-day Indonesia, Luo [Fangbo] established the Lanfang Republic (with its capital in East Wanjin) to protect the Chinese settlers and other indigenous peoples from Dutch oppression. The settlers subsequently elected Luo as their inaugural president. Luo implemented many democratic principles, including the idea that all matters of state must involve the consultation of the republic's citizenry. He also created a comprehensive set of executive, legislative, and judicial agencies. The Republic did not have a standing military, but had a defense ministry that administered a national militia based on conscription. During peacetime, the populace mostly engaged in farming, production, trading, and mining. Lanfang's administrative divisions included three tiers (province, prefecture, and county) with the people electing leaders for all levels. [Wikipedia]

      "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

      by sagesource on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:30:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The ocean claims are truly ridiculous... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      taonow, roadbear

      There are a bunch of other countries closer to that ocean than China.  They seriously believe they have a legitimate claim to all of that sea?

      I don't think anyone outside of China is going to see that as reasonable.  It would be like if we claimed all of the sea in the Gulf of Mexico, including that which was closer to Mexico and other countries, and also included the water around Cuba, Jamaica and other countries.  

    •  Xinjiang (Uighurstan).... (0+ / 0-)

      ....should be given observer status at the United Nations, and they don't shoot rockets into Chinese territory.

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:45:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oregon Supreme Court (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, JML9999

    weighs in in eyewitness testimony.

    This week, in an opinion that attempts to raise the bar on how eyewitness identifications are handled in court, the Oregon Supreme Court ordered a new trial for Lawson and set comprehensive new guidelines on the admissibility of such identifications — standards that recognize new scientific research on the fallibility of human memory in pointing to the perpetrators of crimes.

    Under the new standards, applicable only in Oregon, the prosecution now bears the burden of establishing first that eyewitness testimony meets admissibility standards under standard rules of evidence, and that the identification is rationally based on the witness’ own perceptions.

    “We think we’re sort of ahead of the game now,” said Matthew McHenry, a Portland lawyer who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the Innocence Network. “My understanding is we are one of the first states to have this kind of science recognized by our highest court, and I think what [the Innocence Network] hopes to do with it is use Oregon as an example of what should be when they file these kinds of cases in other states.”

    I'd love someone to start the ball rolling on jailhouse snitches.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:56:03 PM PST

  •  It's Canada and Denmark (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, winsock, Thor Heyerdahl

    Not Canada and Norway. There are no Canadian and Norwegian territories within a few thousand kilometers of each other.

  •  Buddy Hackett on territorial dispute (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    skipping over damaged area

    by Says Who on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:58:14 PM PST

  •  Jones owns the six inches of land. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RLF, East Village Blue, bronte17, agoldnyc

    Minnesota surely has a law of adverse possession and, from the scant facts given, it clearly applies.

    The electoral college was my safety school.

    by Fiddler On A Hot Tin Roof on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:58:57 PM PST

  •  You don't want to mess wiht Costa Rica (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "Costa Rica's "army" display at 190th Independance Anniversary. Since 1948 this small country abolished army and military budget is used in education"

    It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

    by se portland on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 12:59:32 PM PST

  •  My dad got sued recently. (6+ / 0-)

    He bought a piece of land that was subdivided from a larger piece.  They had taken 60 acres along a lake shore, and divided it up into three 20 acre parcels.  He bought the middle parcel.  

    He and the neighbor to the south both built homes on their land, and built a road they both could use to access their properties.  And it was that way for years.  The person who bought the third parcel to the north never built.  Never even visited the place at all.  

    One day, my dad and the neighbor to the south were served with summons to appear in a lawsuit in which they were named as defendants.   The mysterious owner of parcel #3 was suing them for an easement to build a road to his parcel of land.  

    The lawsuit was the first they had ever heard of it.  

    My dad's reaction was "WTF?  Why didn't he just ask?  I would have granted him the easement and welcomed him to the neighborhood."  Of course, now that he's being sued, my dad decided the best thing to do is vigorously defend himself.    He had his very expensive, forty-seventh floor downtown law firm hit the guy with a truckload of motions and pleadings.

    The guy eventually will get his easement, but it's gonna cost him tens of thousands in legal fees, and take a couple years.  Fees and delays that could have been avoided if he had just stopped by, introduced himself, and asked nicely.  


  •  The human condition (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orlbucfan, PSzymeczek, betson08

    More accurately, the animal condition.  You don't need to look far (your own backyard) to see evidence of territoriality among other species.

    "The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago. The second best time is now." - Chinese proverb

    by VALuddite on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:03:48 PM PST

  •  I don't care who wanders through my land (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dube, sow hat

    as long as they don't destroy anything.  

    In fact, a bunch of neighbors and their guests have easement rights to a strip of my property.  In my state, I'm in no way obligated to maintain it--or even keep it at all passable--but I still feel guilty because I can't afford to fill a couple of foot deep pits with gravel.  Srsly, during the spring snow melt I joke about stocking them with bluegills.

    Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn

    by Ice Blue on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:07:29 PM PST

    •  this brings back memories (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ice Blue

      when we sold our old house that was in a cluster of five formerly family-owned acreage, all of a sudden the lawyers had to get involved creating all sorts of hell because we didn't have an official easement for our water lines.  If we had had to put in new ones, that would have involved digging up our mutual and commonly-maintained one-lane road, thereby inconveniencing everyone.  Fortunately the neighbor in front agreed readily to sign an easement right.  To top it off, the road was never officially approved by the county government.  Took forever to sell the house because of this.

      Oh, for Pete's sake!

      by sow hat on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:38:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Something like that's my worst nightmare. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sow hat

        I already have one pain in the ass neighbor.  He's a man who thinks the anal retentive ordinances from his big city are federal law or something.  I tried telling him that's not the way we do things out here but he won't listen to me or anyone else unless they're wearing a badge.  He's already yelled at me a couple times for not keeping my 100 yards of dirt road clear of snow.  And, OMFG, I thought he was going to pop an artery when he saw my dog  poop across from his house, even though that half belongs to another guy.  If it was just him living back there I'd be tempted to leave my old junker of a red truck up on blocks in the road and snap a pic of him driving around it so I could get him cited.   Actually, if I pulled a stunt like that, LE would know full well I was badgering the guy and they'd be pissed at me.  One deputy told me that fully half their calls were for urban-rural clashes.  One of them was shot to death a few years ago over some damn trees.  They don't need any escalation.

        Other than him, the rest of my neighbors are tolerant.  When we get a dumping of snow they chip in and hire someone to plow it for us all.  They all know I'm destitute so I get plowed out for free.  In return, I don't care if they want to drive their snowmobiles through my backyard.

        Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn

        by Ice Blue on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 04:09:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Fighting over sheets is my territorial dispute (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSzymeczek, JeffW

    a couple times a week.

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power" (with snark of course)!

    by dopper0189 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:13:14 PM PST

  •  my family in MI (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sow hat

    is battling over a bypass road to some property that my step-dad gave one of my brothers.

     The uncle who refused to allow passage is now dead. But his sons have taken up the battle.

     My mother, who famously said 'WTF John, it's a dirt road about 50 feet long to Buster's camp' is now dead.

     My brother Buster is the master of fucking it up for the cousins but cousins have money and the law.

    And, a brother (my step-dad) and his sister, the wife of the now dead uncle won't step in and stop this utter BS over a passage at φ  45.71017 λ 87.14097.

  •  Interestingly, yes, we had a very minor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sow hat

    territorial dispute this morning.  First, the set-up:

    Our property consists of 3 acres, approximately half of which is wooded.  Our house was once owned and lived in by the owner of a large tract of farmland adjacent to what became our property.  When the matriarch of the farming family died readied the house for sale by sectioning off 3 acres for the house.  So this farming family still owns the property adjacent to ours on two sides.  Property on the third side is owned by our next-door neighbor.

    On July 3 this year, a powerful storm blew through and knocked down many trees in our area.  We only lost a few trees, but our next-door neighbor lost about 40.  As you might imagine, he's still in the process of clearing the mess.

    So, this morning, we were very surprised to see two men ringing the doorbell.  (One of them was dressed in blaze orange and carrying a rifle.)  One was the next-door neighbor and the other (the one in blaze orange) was the youngest son of the previous owner of our house.  There was a downed tree back in the woods, a huge old cherry tree, and there was a certain amount of uncertainty about whose property it was on.  The blaze-orange guy wanted to use the wood to build something.  As it turned out, it was on our property, so we gave him permission to do whatever he wanted with it.

    Really, not much of a dispute, but there you have it.

    -5.13,-5.64; If you gave [Jerry Falwell] an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox. -- Christopher Hitchens

    by gizmo59 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:35:55 PM PST

    •  We had a next door neighbour, (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, gizmo59, Chi, roadbear, GayHillbilly

      at our old place, who wanted to do something similar.  Only she never asked.

      Just sicced a tree guy on our tree (which hadn't fallen down; she just didn't like it there) without asking us.

      When I told the tree guy (who I discovered while walking the dog in the back 40) to get the eff off my lawn, she (the neighbour) threatened to go to city hall to force us to clean up the mess i.e. the woodland in the back 40.

      I told her to go right ahead, and phoned city hall first.  Whereupon one of the fellows at the engineering department volunteered the information that same neighbour had had a dispute with the previous owners of our home because "somebody" had moved the surveryor's metal peg over three feet, to that neighbour's advantage.

      When this was discovered, the neighbour was forced to move their garage back by 3 feet because they had actually encroached on the previous owner's/our property.

      Guy from City Hall sent me a copy of all the paperwork regarding his dispute.

      But it gets better.

      Same neighbour then demanded I clean out the drainage swale on our property because she didn't have drainage on hers.

      You can guess what happened there.....that's right, nothing. When she phoned City Hall they told her she'd have to put in her own drainage and stop draining into mine.

      I don't think she realized I used to work with the Engineering Dept. at City Hall quite frequently in my capacity as an Engineering Tech for a large utility company.

      Other than that, she was a delightful neighbour.

  •  The squirrels have claimed the roof of my (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sow hat

    screened porch.  And the possums the underside of the deck.  I have no oil or (hopefully) gas reserves, but I get very little of the blueberry crop even though the plants are on my property.  My neighbor and I aren't sure where the property line is, so we landscaped the area to look good from both sides and left that battle for future generations - we got the idea from Congress.

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

    by Most Awesome Nana on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:36:30 PM PST

  •  Colombia and Nicaragua will eventually... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08 the disputed piece of ocean.,,that's my guess, educated by my uneducated-guess standards.  Nicaragua under Ortega can't secure any foreign investment for that kind of thing even in non-disputed territory, except maybe from Venezuela whose recent ability to develop new production is unproven and then some, and Venezuela wouldn't risk conflict with Colombia at this point.  Maybe in 2009 but not now. Nicaragua has, tenuously, the (new) sovereignty but they can't do anything useful with it without Colombia.  That's got deal written all over it.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:47:34 PM PST

  •  We were worried about this years ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I retired from the military six years ago and we were worried that this was going to be a hot-spot back then.

    Most of the imagined scenarios involved China vs one or more of the other regional players.

    The "shift to the Pacific" predates the current administration and was being talked about as far back as 2004.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:52:15 PM PST

  •  China is really looking for problems with this (0+ / 0-)

    and they have a big military to enforce this. Next big problem in the world, depending on the resources that are shipped through the area.

    Helping a food pantry on the Cheyenne River Reservation,Okiciyap." ><"

    by betson08 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:56:51 PM PST

  •  My territorial dispute is over my rent controlled (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ... apartment.

    The law in San Francisco, for buildings such as the one I've lived in for nearly 18 years, is that as long as I pay my rent and not violate any of the legal reasons to trigger evictions, that my apartment is mine in perpetuity.

    The only way that I can be forced to give up my home is if the building is taken off the rental market through a legal process known as the Ellis Act.  However, this means the building may never again be rented or the units sold as condo's, which greatly diminishes the value.

    To avoid the Ellis Act restrictions, landlords skirt the law by offering to buy your tenancy rights, giving you cash to willingly surrender your apartment back to them free and clear to do anything they want with it.

    However, as is so often the case in the world of financial capitalism, whenever the powers-that-be look like they are offering a piece of the action to the little guy (see stock market, real estate bubble, 401k service fees, etc.) hang on to your wallets!

    Once you open the negotiation you are prey, and their expensive lawyers and the rigged courts and enforcement agencies will see to it that the property-owning class will have its way at your expense.  

    For every dollar that is seemingly offered to you upfront, they are stealing five from you behind your back.  Even though this is supposed to be a negotiation between equals, the overwhelming firepower on the other side is there to wear you down with endless haggling and threats until you are too beaten down to resist any more.

    There are legal protections to prevent tenants from being harassed and abused by landlords.  But the second you accept any compensation the system tilts against you--and you, the little guy who has faithfully paid his rent for decades, and maintained the property when the cheap landlord wouldn't, are now the greedy moocher who expects something for nothing.

    And so through quasi-legal extortion your home is taken from you by lawyers patting each other on the back while they make plans for golf next Wednesday.  The landlord, who hasn't spent a dime on the place in two decades, now reaps the 10X appreciation in real estate values (the power of free markets enriching the bold job creators!).  And you are patted on the bottom, given a few ducats and sent on your way to god knows  where--hopefully not to under a freeway overpass, as those few ducats sure can't afford anything looking like real housing in this market.

    Oh, and this occurred with what was alleged to be a good tenants rights attorney.  But when the negotiations got tough he folded like a house of cards, helped intimidate us by spreading the landlord's lies and threats, and was clearly more interested in preserving his working relationship with opposing counsel rather than getting his clients the best deal possible.  And this saintly defender of the rights of the downtrodden walks away with more cash out of the deal than 4 out of the 5 people losing their homes.

    Rapacious financial capitalism is the destruction of human society.  Too much is never enough for the greed heads, and if putting another dollar in their pocket means destroying your life, well, hey, it's just business, ya know?  The free market defends the landlord's right to his property, but when it comes to getting anything like the true value of surrendering your tenancy rights, you are the greedy bastard trying to cheat the fine upstanding pillar of the community.  Take your candy and the shiny dime, Little Johnny, and get out of the way, because the adults have real business to do.

    Lives ruined.  Communities shredded.  Cultures trampled.  The very things that made a place special sold off to the highest bidder.  All so that the rich can get a little richer, and the rest of us all be damned.

    "It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

    by wonkydonkey on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:57:25 PM PST

  •  The most ridiculous one.. (0+ / 0-)

    Argentina's claim for the Falkland Islands - which they even extended to South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands which the UK had lumped in with the Fallkland Islands for administative conveniance.

    Next year's referendum should settle it once and for all - but it probably won't.

  •  40% of $ for China's Navy pocketed (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry I don't have a link but I've seen that number in the Financial Times and I believe the source was in China's government. So all around the disputed area nationalist fervor is whipped up and budgets for navies are increased. That may be all these countries really want and they don't want a war. But this brinksmanship can be turned into a war by a single trigger happy sailor or fisherman.

  •  Elementary School Rezoning Can Get Nasty. (0+ / 0-)

    I am waiting for the protest marches.

    " we could go all day with the issues "

    by East Village Blue on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:32:40 PM PST

  •  I have friends up canyon that have been in a (0+ / 0-)

    dispute over about 6' of property with a neighbor for over a dozen years. It's still a mess, though it appears the other side is finally getting penalized for repeatedly not obeying court orders. In this case, it's the difference between one of the two properties having parking--or not.

    Because we were subdivided so very long ago, most just rely on physical property markers (old walls and fences) to determine property lines. I have problems with an up-hill neighbor, and hope it won't come to something like court. It's an easement problem and those are always horrible.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:33:27 PM PST

  •  I'm a mother of two boys 16 mos. apart in age (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    and I kept reading, waiting for the next story to be about them.

  •  The Yuba River, upstream from Marysville, 50 (0+ / 0-)

    miles north of Sacramento, was forced a mile north and into a channel by the Army Corps, decades ago.

    That created 10,000 acres of new lands, covered with a billion dollars worth of high-grade gravel, washed down from the hydraulic gold mining on the 1800s.

    California said that was state lands, since it was river bottom at the time of statehood.  The USA said you couldn't navigate the Yuba, so that rule didn't count, and it was federal lands.

    Meanwhile, in the legal confusion, a Texas-based mining company took countless millions of dollars worth of government-owned gravel.

    Its called the Yuba Goldfields.  The Yuba River still boasts several runs of wild salmon and other endangered fishies and eels.

  •  I've been playing Crusader Kings 2 (0+ / 0-)

    And like most historical-based strategy games, territorial disputes are a great way to expand.  As is fabricating territorial claims.

    It's nice to remember that today most territorial disputes are over uninhabited islands or pieces of oceans with resources under them.  Compared to the mess of conflicting claims that makes for great video games but sucked to live through, humanity's come a long way.

  •  When countries and peoples respect each other, (0+ / 0-)

    … even the most complicated border situations need not lead to friction.

    The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

    by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:37:33 PM PST

  •  Territorial disputes (0+ / 0-)
    Are you engaged in any territorial disputes?
    Constantly. Mostly involving two or more of my grandchildren who want to sit, stand, lie down or just be in the same place at the same time.

    If you can't say anything nice about the GOP, please post here more often.

    by Omir the Storyteller on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:38:17 PM PST

  •  U.S./Canada can't afford another "Pig War" (0+ / 0-)
    The Pig War was a confrontation in 1859 between the United States and the British Empire over the boundary between the US and British North America. The territory in dispute was the San Juan Islands, which lie between Vancouver Island and the North American mainland.

    Globe & Mail has a list of Canada/U.S. territorial disputes.

    The Beaufort Sea

    Who: Canada vs. U.S.

    What: A triangle-shaped section of the Arctic Ocean north of the Alaska/Yukon border.

    How big: The area in question is roughly 21,000 square kilometres shaped in a triangle that extends from the Alaska-Yukon border to the edge of the U.S. and Canada’s exclusive economic zones.

    BTW, 21,000 km2 is slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey.
  •  Most ridiculous international territorial dispute (0+ / 0-)

    Currently five separate nations all claim territory they cant access in the arctic circle. What makes this really sad is that the interest comes from the fact that the ice cap is melting opening the possibility that resources may be extracted in the future. Essentially world leaders have embraced a policy of looking for the silver lining in global warming

    PS up the tread somewhere, one of the commentators said Norway and Canada don't have a territorial dispute, ah well...

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