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It's time.

It's time to have a real national conversation about gun control, and it's time to enact policies on a federal level that prevent the mass slaughter of innocent citizens.

The Hartford Courant:

We are in this life, it's been said, to help each other get through it. We do this with ritual and process. In the next days and week, there will be the rituals of wakes and funerals, memorial services and assemblies. They are there for a reason — they help, they are what we have, we must embrace them. There are few occasions as emotionally painful as a child's funeral, and few as necessary.

And then there will be process, starting with the law enforcement and medical investigations, and perhaps leading to changes in public policy. Or — looking at recent mass shootings — talk of change but no actual new laws or policies.

The first response to mass shootings usually has to do with gun control. With the country awash in handguns — 300 million by one estimate — it's not clear if guns can be controlled any longer. The National Rifle Association and other gun lobbyists can take great pride; they've brought gun ownership within reach of every psycho and wing nut with a crazed rage to kill.

Yet we must try.

The New Haven Register:
There is no explanation, only heartbreak at the massacre of innocent children, many in kindergarten, at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. Once again we have been reminded of the horror that the hateful and deranged can wreak upon the innocent. All too often it is a lone male who has lost touch with himself and the world who has the power with a gun to express his demented rage in the death of others. [...]

Calls for stronger gun control laws have been shrugged off after past mass shootings. In the past, President Barack Obama has avoided the political volatile issue of gun control. After Friday’s shootings the White House again brushed off questions about tougher gun measures. But, then the president spoke, not so much as the nation’s leader but as the father of two daughters. This time he promised action to stop such future slaughters. Again, he did not specify any specific action. But millions of parents hope he will act to try and make schools, movie theaters, offices a little safer. Children have a right to grow up, not be shot down in their classroom.

The New York Times:
Mr. Obama talked about the need for “common sense” gun control after the movie theater slaughter in Aurora, Colo., and he hinted during the campaign that he might support a new assault weapons ban, presumably if someone else introduced it. Republicans will never do that, because they are mired in an ideology that opposes any gun control. After each tragedy, including this one, some people litter the Internet with grotesque suggestions that it would be better if everyone (kindergarten teachers?) were armed. Far too many Democrats also live in fear of the gun lobby and will not support an assault weapons ban, or a ban on high-capacity bullet clips, or any one of a half-dozen other sensible ideas.

Mr. Obama said Friday that “we have been through this too many times” and that “we’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.”

When will that day come? It did not come after the 1999 Columbine shooting, or the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting, or the murders in Aurora last summer.

The more that we hear about gun control and nothing happens, the less we can believe it will ever come. Certainly, it will not unless Mr. Obama and Congressional leaders show the courage to make it happen.

Steve Lopez at The Los Angeles Times:
In this country, you can legally buy assault weapons. What does that say about us?

Think about it. We have a national legislative body that fears the clout of the National Rifle Assn. more than it worries about the consequences of allowing people to buy weapons designed for war.

The concealed carry ban in Illinois was thrown out by an appellate court this week in another NRA victory. In Chicago, where violent crime has soared and shootings every weekend take the lives of children, The Chicago Sun-Times pens two editorials in the wake of the shooting, one about how "this is a moment that should shake America to its core" link and another about taking on the pro-violence lobby:
Yes, the pro-gun forces have been winning lately.

But their promises of a safer America based on more and more guns are proving to be empty.

Big change often starts with small battles, and we need to get aggressive about those smaller battles now.

We can approve an assault weapons ban.

We can write a stiff concealed carry law in Illinois in response to a judicial ruling tossing out our outright ban.

And we should keep going, developing and implementing new solutions until our nation is as safe as we can make it.

As Tom Mauser, father of a student killed in the Columbine High School shootings, says, “If you don’t start now, you’re not going to get anywhere.”

The editorial board at USA Today looks at the "moral imperative" of tightening gun laws and strengthening access to mental health care:
There are also ways to isolate and help those among us with delusional, threatening or violent behavior, even though only a tiny fraction will become killers. Laws in most states allow authorities, or even friends and family, to ask a judge to have someone like that treated. There are databases designed to keep deranged people from buying guns, but they only work if they are maintained and updated.

America is grieving this weekend. As the president said, every parent will hug his or her children a little tighter. Nothing can truly comfort the parents in Newtown who can no longer do that. But the country can take steps, however imperfect, to make it more difficult for another Newtown to occur. After Friday, that is a moral imperative.

The Washington Post:
...we will argue again about guns, or, rather, about why our politicians are hardly even arguing about guns any more. There are those who will object, who will say gun policy has nothing to do with any single event, that tragedies should not be exploited for political purpose. We know many of our readers are among this group.

And then there will be others, ourselves included, who will say, whatever the facts of this case, that the country would be safer with fewer guns, that mass killings are more difficult with knives, that it is not the Second Amendment but political cowardice that precludes sensible regulation. That we are not supposed to exploit tragedy to talk about this issue, but that in the absence of tragedy it never gets talked about at all.

In the meantime new names will be inscribed on that peculiar American roll call of grief: Newtown, Connecticut. Sandy Hook Elementary School. Names so ordinary, so American, so unthreatening, that in their very recitation they refute what we all would like to believe: It couldn’t happen here.

Please sign the petition asking President Obama to help start a national conversation about gun control.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:33 AM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  My conservative peers have been thoughtfully (15+ / 0-)

    engaging on the subject on facebook, which makes me hopeful. It's taking virtually all of my self-control to remain polite and pleasant and calm when discussing it in the presence of their families - the older conservatives are coming out swinging with statements that range from passive-aggressive to just flatout aggressive.

    Still, I think having this happen so soon after Aurora and the Sikh Temple and Clackamas and oh god, how can this list just keep going on? has broken the strength of the walls around the subject.

    •  My wingnut fb friends are silent (5+ / 0-)

      Many of their past posts, like reactions to Obama's reelection, could be submitted as evidence of derangement.  That's the problem with the idea of getting help for the deranged a la the USA Today excerpt.  Where's that line?

      Dementia, you better treat me good. ~Conor Oberst "Slowly (Oh So Slowly)"

      by NotActingNaive on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:53:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why don't you unfriend them? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic, davidkc, missquested

        Just curious.

        "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

        by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:12:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll hazard a guess: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geez53, skohayes

          It helps to know what they're saying.

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          by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:25:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  People are complex. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, Amber6541

          One of the wingnuttiest people I know is also the most passionate about stray animal rescue. We also share a hobby. And finally, as kestrel points out, it's good to keep a finger on the pulse.

          Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. --Mark Twain

          by Debby on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:56:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I would say the line should be drawn (7+ / 0-)

        whenever threats to kill people are verbalized and taken seriously by those who hear the threats.  Most mass murderers talk about their intentions before the act is carried out, and alerting authorities to threats considered serious and viable should be investigated.  If the authorities are hamstrung by laws prohibiting or minimizing the investigation of such threats, then those laws need to be changed.

        And please don't allow the proliferation of guns in this country to be compared to Switzerland or accept the comparison with cars ("Cars cause more deaths each year than guns.  Are you for outlawing cars?").

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:32:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You always hear the right wingers (6+ / 0-)

          talk about "It's a mental health issue, not a gun issue."
          Yet red state legislators and Congress keep cutting spending on mental health.
          Brownback slashed the money to assisted living homes by millions of dollars. Many will probably have to close.

          “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

          by skohayes on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:08:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've had that argument thrown at me, about cars. (6+ / 0-)

          My response:

          The primary purpose of cars is to transport.  They were not designed as weapons.

          The primary purpose of guns is to kill.  They are designed to kill.

          If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. John F. Kennedy ( inaugural address, January 20, 1961)

          by Outraged Mom on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:10:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Switzerland/Canada do not pump up paranoia. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Debby, Smoh, Mistral Wind, Amber6541

          The mix you have to worry about is one the most severe of the psychiatric illnesses: paranoid schizophrenia. 17 per 100,000 presenting with psychotic breaks, hallucinations, full blown threat to self and others.

          17 per 100,000 times 300,000,000 yields 50,000 people in America -- people you don't want to see anywhere near a Glock 9 or a Bushmaster.

          And if these weapons are generally available, you've no hope of keeping them away from these 50,000 psychotics. This boy Adam Lanza seems to have bought his guns in his mother's name.

          What on earth would Mrs. Nancy Lanza have wanted with an arsenal ??? It doesn't seem likely that she would have known about what he was doing.

          Psychotic breaks usually present over time, slowly building up to take over perception.

          The waking nightmares are rarely diagnosed before truly bad things happen. Only a reported 30%  of mass murderers have been diagnosed with delusional mental illnesses prior to their crimes.

          We cannot find them. We cannot prevent them from going off the edge. You know there's 50,000 of them out there that will present grave risks. You know we'll never identify even a third of them. All we can do is limit how lethal they can be when they go psychotic.

          We need to crank back on the semi-auto weapons, particularly the hand guns. Do it asap.

          There is no use for these hand guns hunting. You'd have to be out in the Glades hunting boar to use one, at which point what you really want to have is a 12-guage shotgun. Nobody needs these weapons day by day -- nobody but police, armed guards and military.

        •  Tiresome isn't it? Shall you and I have the entire (0+ / 0-)

          conversation and get it over with?  Bet we can do it without belittling each other too.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:29:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  cars (0+ / 0-)

          A good response to that is:

          We don't outlaw cars, but we DO require education and testing before you can drive one. And we do outlaw speeding. And we do take away your license to drive if you break the laws a few times. And we do fund enforcement of the laws that limit your "right" to drive. And so on.

          We don't need to "outlaw guns" (though that would be nice). But we do need to limit access to them.

        •  Insurance (0+ / 0-)

          We require insurance on cars. Maybe we can require the same on guns. Or they can surrender them to avoid insurance?

      •  Wingnuts I know are also silent (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, Smoh, Mistral Wind, Amber6541

        They are posting forwarded prayers without any attached comments, and nothing about guns at all. Usually they rant on about guns and about how Obama is going to take them all away.

        There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

        by OHeyeO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:22:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  One woman I know (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gramofsam1, Smoh, Mistral Wind

          went into overdrive not to acknowledge. Posts all afternoon sprinkled among reactions to the tragedy but they were things like, "Ooh, look at this pattern I found!" or "I need to try this recipe." It made me wonder what her newsfeed looked like. Is she among people who were desperately trying to ignore?

          Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. --Mark Twain

          by Debby on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:00:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  What can you say? (9+ / 0-)

    If anything's done, it will just be nibbling around the edges.

    It's a gun crazy country.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:38:05 AM PST

    •  National Tragedy (7+ / 0-)

      I can't think of many things that were more horrific in this country since 9-11 than what happened yesterday.

      But the terrible events of yesterday, underscored the growing cancer in this country of mass murder using a tool that is way-too-easy to obtain.

      After 9-11 this country came together and passed historic legislation, went into war, and generally gave a president carte blanche for some time to come. Some personal liberties were given up and continue to be affected.

      While people may certainly argue that this is no way approaches the terribleness of 911, it can't be argued that yesterday will leave a lasting scar in this country.

      After the events of yesterday, will we see this country come together and do the things to address the proliferation of weapons that will allow this type of event to happen again and again again?  

      Sadly, the right in this country has gone too far off the rails where they will allow an event as yesterday to prompt them to do the right thing.  They will not give up on a maniacal obsession with the 2nd amendment and the need to accumulate more and more guns.

      If we choose to do nothing, it says volumes about this country and its future direction.

      "Self-respect is the keystone of democracy"

      by neverontheright on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:27:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  anything (7+ / 0-)

      will be a start.  The whole conversation in this country has moved to the point where guns have become a third rail in politics, babies conceived in rape are a blessing, paying taxes is unpatriotic, and Michigan is a right to work state.  

      We have to move the conversation back to a place where there is a sane middle ground.  

    •  It's a start (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, Smoh, Amber6541

      Just like climate change legislation or health care legislation is not perfect when first crafted, it at least begins to address the problem.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:10:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gotta start somewhere (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dharmafarmer, gramofsam1, Smoh, Amber6541

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:18:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  NRA (10+ / 0-)

    appears to have all but removed their facebook presence.
    One user has reported they have taken down heir blog and twitter feed.

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    by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:38:22 AM PST

  •  Gotta love WaPo. (8+ / 0-)
    ...we will argue again about guns, or, rather, about why our politicians are hardly even arguing about guns any more.
    How often do they talk about gun control when there's not a tragedy to prod them?

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:41:28 AM PST

  •  Rupert Murdoch (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kestrel9000, Onomastic, Smoh, Amber6541
    Terrible news today. When will politicians find courage to ban automatic weapons?As in Oz after similar tragedy.
    I wonder if FOX will now pick up the ball for gun control. Will Murdoch finally do something good?

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:42:16 AM PST

    •  There were no (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, Onomastic, skohayes, Smoh

      automatic weapons used in this crime.

      •  Apparently handguns used and the mother sure (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Desert Scientist, Amber6541

        owned quite an arsenal of guns. Was she afraid and bought all of these guns because of that? Did she inherit a lot of guns , as I know that happened to my cousin who inherited a lot of guns from his deceased father who was a gun collector. Was the woman a gun collector? As she owned something like 5 guns and that is considered a lot in my family ...I knew very few people that own more than one or two guns.

        Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

        by wishingwell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:58:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  hate to say this but I have substantially more (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kestrel9000, Amber6541

          than 5 guns and bought a couple this past week as a matter of fact; one was with an eye to trading with a relative so as to remove the Saturday Night Special from their home to be replaced by a more substantial weapon with both a trigger lock, double safeties and a gun box to keep it in.  My only regret is it did not come with a gun cabinet as well

          •  Are you a collector, I assume if you have more (0+ / 0-)

            than 5?  As I am thinking most who own more than a few guns are collectors or they are investments or they buy and sell guns or own a gun business or something similar?

            Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

            by wishingwell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:41:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  dunno what I am: some guns are heirlooms (0+ / 0-)

              from father and grandfather while others were purchased for me by father and grandfather.  Still others, such as a .50 black powder are  specialized.  Since I tend to purchase PRN I am not sure I rise to the level of a collector (though I do collect 19th Century African edged weapons and there am very particular about the items I purchase and do extensive research on items I consider purchasing)  

              •  CNN reported the mother of the shooter was an (0+ / 0-)

                avid gun collector. Now I understand why she owned so many guns. Her good friend told CNN that the mother was an avid gun collector plus liked to go to the shooting range and often took her sons there.

                The mother told her good friend she was worried about the mental stability of her son but perhaps she did not see him as violent and she was not worried about her guns. As it is true that few mentally ill people are ever violent.  It is more often that any anger is turned inward and it is depression as the main component.

                Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

                by wishingwell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:34:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  lots of misinformation out there still on the (0+ / 0-)

                  shooting; it appears she owned 4 guns and her estranged husband 2.  3 guns were recovered at the scene, a .223 Bushmaster rifle and a Sig Sauer and  a Glock (9MMs ??) pistols.
                  From memory the guns not used were a shotgun, a Henry rifle and an Enfield rifle but there is still a lot of misinformation out there as reporters try to ferret out facts, any facts from any source.  For example, there were reports the father had been killed as well, that the brother had been arrested, that there were 2 shooters involved, and that the mother had additional guns in addition to the ones mentioned.

                  At any rate, the possession of a rifle, a shotgun and 2 handguns hardly makes the mother a collector.  A collector chooses a certain niche and then collects within that niche, trying to have a complete and comprehensive inventory as possible.  For example, I have an interest in colonial coins and also collect 18th and 19th Century African artifacts.  It started out as an interest in SubSaharan but now includes Northern African pieces.  In addition, I have a fair sized library of books on the provenance and history of such items.
                  The mother appeared to be a gun enthusiast but not a collector (for example, I own a matched pair of S&W Lemonsqueezers with sequential numbering which I inherited from my grandfather.  Unfortunately they have been fired while collectors generally like items in pristine condition if possible    

                  •  The ex sister in law was on last night and said (0+ / 0-)

                    she was a gun enthusiast but also bought and kept the guns for protection in case because if the economy crashed, she wanted to protect herself.

                    But I take that for what it is worth, it is an ex sister in law who says they still emailed and were close but one never knows.  She did say her brother was paid 200k per year support to her and the son and the mother of the shooter did not have to work. So she may also have an ax to grind so ex in laws not always reliable sources even if they claim to still be friendly.

                    Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

                    by wishingwell on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 03:53:07 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yep it seems she was real friendly with all of her (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      wishingwell

                      neighbors, discussing her son's psychiatric and medical history in detail and also boasting about her gun collection, even with people who lived quite a few doors away from her residence.

                      From personal experience, all I can say is that families with a member with mental health issues usually try to cloak that from the community and even become somewhat paranoid about what information gets into the community, for fear that gossip may trigger an investigation by authorities

        •  I used to have a .22 single shot when I was young. (7+ / 0-)

          Took pot shots at cans and bottles.  Later inherited a batch of guns from my father.  Got rid of everything long ago.  If I was living on the border on a ranch I'd arm myself.  I see gun ownership for defense as situational.  As things stand now I live in a neighborhood where I can walk at midnight and only worry (in summer) about running into a skunk.  In such situations guns only complicate things.

          I really don't want to live in a world where everybody has to be armed to the teeth to feel safe. If I wanted to do that there are countries to which I could immigrate. It sounds like a futuristic hell.  Right to arms, yes.  Right to own automatic weapons and assault rifles, NO!  Need to make as sure as possible that the person owning a gun is not criminal or unstable, yes. Requiring locks on stored guns, yes.  We got along fine with an assault rifle ban, as we did with higher taxes on the wealthy.  The NRA has become a terrorist organization in my book because they object even to complete background checks and want to make it easier for nut jobs to carry.  Just read some of the editorials in their magazine!

      •  Take what you can get when the opportunity comes (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, Smoh, Amber6541

        Just because there were no automatic weapons in this incident doesn't mean that issue can't be addressed if our chicken politicians get a backbone after this.

        There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

        by OHeyeO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:22:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Split hairs... (0+ / 0-)

        Why don't you? The difference is a technical detail not worth noting.

    •  Nah. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, condorcet, ConfusedSkyes

      He supports action on climate change too, but he dare not order Roger Ailes to try to sell it to the rubes.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:43:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This isn't quite correct (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Im with Rosey, Onomastic
    The concealed carry ban in Illinois was thrown out by an appellate court this week in another NRA victory
    It was more than a concealed carry ban.
    By a lot.
    It was a ban on any firearm outside the home at all for almost any reason if there was ammunition present.
    Illinois was the only state in America with a restriction of such severity.

    Moore vs Madigan (pdf warning)

    If we're going to discuss this issue, we need to be accurate.

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    by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:48:23 AM PST

    •  this is one reason I am renewing my CWP (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, Onomastic

      after having to convince a cop that I was permitted to transport a pistol, in a box in the toolbox of the truck,  picked up from the gunsmith, along with ammo purchased from Walmart and stored in a bag in my glove compartment (gun was .32 and ammo was .38).

      He was adamant that in order to have both present in a vehicle and to not be hunting, required a CWP.  I had my hunting license on me so I convinced him a judge would throw the case out in any case as he could not prove I was on my way to hunt.  In any case, he advised me to renew my CWP ASAP so as to prevent future confusion.

      This gave rise to my question if sword canes were legal under a CWP and I have found no single answer to this question to multiple attorneys, police and couple of judges

  •  Nothing is going to happen on gun control (6+ / 0-)

    Sadly. It hasn't happened after other tragedies, so I don't see any reason to believe it will happen after this tragedy.  We lack any kind of strong political leadership to make it happen (and that includes President Obama), the NRA is too strong, and our country has now become ingrained with a sick, sick gun culture. Too many powerful people make too much money off of guns and death for things to change.

    •  I think the NRA (8+ / 0-)

      may well incur some serious damage this time.

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      by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:51:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Start the war from right here" (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DRo, NancyK, Smoh, Amber6541, One Opinion

      That's a quote of Teddy Roosevelt, Jr. a commander of troops on Utah Beach. Some units on Utah landed more than a mile from their targets and there ensued a discussion of the officers of attempting to meet the original Operation Overlord objectives. Roosevelt convinced everyone to press forward to the enemy positions directly ahead of them (and who were firing at them as they deliberated).

      Yes, we who have been advocates of effective and reasonable gun control are DECADES late in asserting our ideas and beliefs. But if we wait for the NRA and its enablers to get less powerful, we've forfeited any moral authority we might claim.

      Facing armed people is scary. Let's face it: fear is what keeps us silent. For politicians the fear of being overwhelmed in a Primary or General Elections by "legions" of RKBA activists. For us regular citizens there are a range of fears: of not being "open minded enough to accommodate" an extreme interpretation of the 2nd amendment is the least of these fears. I am certain that some people have received death threats for being assertive in public forums about the need to explore limits on weapons, especially in densely populated areas.

      The NRA is I am certain "membered" by many thousands of reasonable people who use information to improve their marksmanship and gun safety practices. But their leadership and executive staffing has been off the deep end for decades. Weapon "best practices" cannot be the same in the hills around Buffalo, WY as they are in any place that is even marginally more densely populated. And yet that slipperly slope fear of gun confiscation has kept their revenues up and their political clout formidable for decades.

      What if it is just a paper facade waiting for a steady wind to push it over?

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:27:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is time to wrest the assault weapon (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh, Amber6541, Friend of the court

    from Charlton Heston’s cold dead hands.

  •  Gun Control....we're going about it the wrong way. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    condorcet, Smoh

    The insistence should be that EVERYBODY in the USofA have at least three guns. Then watch the anti-gun laws flow. Time for some out-of-the-box thinking on this stupidity.

  •  I began a diary this morning (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Im with Rosey, DRo, SueDe, skohayes, Smoh

    hopeful that it would be possible to affect change from inside the NRA by joining the enemy, and voting for a change in leadership.

    What I learned in the diary writing process in a couple of hours is disheartening. Only board members vote for leadership. The board members are a who's who of Republican policy makers and Congressmen.

    On the positive side, I found that they spent big on Congressional races and lost 7 out of 8 they backed.

    They spent $13 million on Romney for a 0.00% return on that money.

    This is the NRA:
    Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com
    Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com

    and, let's not leave out the future of the NRA:
    Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com

    Adorable, isn't he? About 4 years old and already filled with enough hate and vitriol to anxiously anticipate his next visit from Santa that will allow him to put the brakes on something that moves after he graduates from stomping on ant hills.

    We've been spelling it wrong all these years. It's actually: PRO-GOP-ANDA

    by Patriot4peace on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:57:31 AM PST

  •  small note on assault weapon ban (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exterris

    (being a person who owns gun but who also has no problems with laws and regulations governing their ownership) is that in the public debate there is a great deal of confusion as to what constitutes an assault weapon.
    This is seen in the lexical definition: " : any of various automatic or semiautomatic firearms; especially : assault rifle"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    For example, the 1994 ban classed semiauto shotguns with 2 of the following characteristics as being an assault weapon:
            Folding or telescoping stock
            Pistol grip
            Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
            Detachable magazine.
    A pistol grip is not an unusual feature for a long gun so that leaves only one more feature before a long gun is an assault weapon.  Detachable magazines are not as common in shotguns as in rifles and pistols but exist in many permutations.  Taking into account, "one in the chamber" a magazine capacity of 5 is not that unusual.

    The idea is, as I understand it,  to separate hunting guns from guns which are not usually used for hunting
    For example of hunting shotguns with large magazines:
    http://www.fabarm.com/...
    http://www.grahamsonline.co.uk/...
    It seems  a common problem with many control laws is a lack of specificity

    •  I think the gun makers would have to adjust (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      exterris, skohayes, Debby, Smoh

      Rather than congress writing the laws to suit the gun makers' products, the gun makers' products are going to have to be redesigned to meet the laws.

      Will they lose some cool features? Maybe. Consumer protection regulations ban cool features on cars all the time in the interest of public safety.

      (I say "would" because I don't think anything will happen.)

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:20:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When are people going to demand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dhshoops

    that Congress not the President take action. Why is there no petition to idiot Boehner or Harry Reid on this site. Until we force Congress to take responsibility for their continued obstruction of any legislation designed to rationally deal with gun violence we will continue to loose our children.
    Americans should surround the Capitol and force the smug legislators who enjoy the privileges, and perks of their office while all the rest of us have to worry about our children`s safety every time they go to school, the movies or the mall. Call your Congress person. Call your Senators. Call idiot  Boehner, Call Harry Reid. Demand they take action.

    Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. ~Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler

    by Tchrldy on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:00:33 AM PST

  •  We need to amend the Second Amendment (5+ / 0-)

    so that it explicitly allows gun control.

    This nonsense has to stop.  We have to stop it.

    And we have to do it now.

    When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

    by litho on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:01:01 AM PST

    •  We need to define (10+ / 0-)

      the modern equivalent to an 18th century Militia.

      You want to own a Second Amendment protected firearm? Join the Army. Learn how to own it safely. Learn how to keep it away from your children. Hone your marksmanship skills.

      The NRA conveniently avoids printing everything before the first comma.

      We've been spelling it wrong all these years. It's actually: PRO-GOP-ANDA

      by Patriot4peace on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:20:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The very minimum should be (4+ / 0-)

        Mandatory gun use and safety classes which would be prerequisite for licensing which would be necessary for gun ownership. And I'm not talking about a two hour bullshit class. I mean a few weeks or months of training, including history and graphic video. On top of that, gun safes should be required for every home with a gun. Period. Every person who drives a car in this country has to be licensed and to attend some training class. Automobiles can be used as weapons but their primary use is transportation. We don't we require licensing for operators of machinery whose primary use is killing?

        "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

        by MargaretPOA on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:30:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  In Switzerland, all males 19-30 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh

        years old are drafted into canton militias and are issued an assault weapon by the military.  However, each militia member must go through three months of training  by the Swiss army, be proven fit (mentally and physically) for militia duty, and may not carry the weapon outside the home except to attend shooting competitions (a national sport) or in case the military is called up to defend against the country's invasion.  

        Although the information is now about 10 years old, here is a rundown of Swiss gun control information.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:02:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  (There are no commas) (0+ / 0-)

        Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

        by Smoh on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:34:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh? (0+ / 0-)
          A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
          As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State.

          We've been spelling it wrong all these years. It's actually: PRO-GOP-ANDA

          by Patriot4peace on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:52:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks to Georgia for putting this together (26+ / 0-)

    That was a task beyond me this morning (Newtown is where I live).

    Want to do something for Newtown? Please sign that petition.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:02:24 AM PST

  •  I do wonder if the son, the older brother of the (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    litho, maryabein, Smoh, Debby

    killer, will shed some light on why the mother owned so many guns.  As i believe I heard on MSNBC that all the guns belonged to the mother and he had 4 guns with him ..either on his person or in his car and there was another gun or two at the house. They were all legally owned by the mother. If the mother knew her son had issues, problems, was either suicidal or violent or had violent thoughts or whatever....did she have all of these guns to protect herself or was she a collector? Maybe she had a key hidden and he found it ....or something going on there.

    The number of guns some own always astounds me. I had an old friend who owned an arsenal but he was a collector who stored them, had no kids, ...but still that always astounded me why this guy struggling financially had so many guns.

    Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

    by wishingwell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:02:24 AM PST

  •  Support for gun control - a question (3+ / 0-)

    Is there, in the opinions of readers, a per-eminent group supporting gun control legislation through which one might donate/act on this cause; a sort of anti-NRA, if you will? Sound leadership from the public sphere will be important going forward on this and people will need a focus that is politically & legally savvy and able to act and interact with legislators  beyond the protest phase. Also, who are likely to be the best legislative allies in this?

    Where are we going and what am I doing in this handbasket?

    by gelfling545 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:03:06 AM PST

  •  Mental health care needs be free and plentiful (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fabiano1, wishingwell

    This is the root of the problem. While I personally have no issue with sensible gun control, it would be about as effective as preventing suicide by banning rope.

    Kill them with kindness. If that fails, just kill them.

    by JesusQ on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:03:40 AM PST

    •  mental health also needs to be de-criminalized (0+ / 0-)

      I think I heard the stat correctly the other day that as many as 75% of all inmates eventually re-offend.  However at the same time, there are very few or no vocational or educational or mental health services available to inmates in many states.

      We should examine the Scandinavian model to determine why their recidivism rates, even among violent offenders, are so low compared to ours

    •  The very same people who want to (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, Debby, TheDuckManCometh

      eliminate all restrictions on guns are the ones who keep cutting funds for mental health care.  As with so many issues for the right wing, there is a fundamental contradiction in their position.

      For other examples:
      --pro life  v. pro death penalty
      --balanced budget v. no taxes
      --freedom of religion v. attacks on mosques

      I could go on and on, but in this case, we have "guns don't kill people, crazy people kill people" v. "cut funds for mental healthcare."

      “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

      by SottoVoce on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:12:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There Is No Evil (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PowWowPollock, One Opinion

    As an atheist, I don't believe in nonsensical explanations of things. I don't believe in gods or ghosts or witchcraft or magic or anything that doesn't fit the way the universe works. Evil is one of those easy to spout idiot words that means nothing in the context of the real world. The person who killed these people suffered from a severe mental disorder that made doing these killings the only thing that made sense at that moment. Why this happens is up to scientists and psychiatrists to figure out and up to society to do something about.

    There is no evil. There is no Devil. There is no bogeyman. It's easy for people to want to make this sort of horror the fault of the "other" but it is in fact the act of a human being who at least once was like everyone else.

    This head movie makes my eyes rain.

    by The Lone Apple on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:04:32 AM PST

    •  it's a metaphor and doesn't have to be taken (7+ / 0-)

      literally, just as neighbors can go to a vigil at a local church without being Catholic or Episcopalian. That's what happened last night.

      It doesn't require dissection.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:13:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  As another nonbeliever (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Egalitare, geez53, Smoh

      I take exception.
      There is certainly such a thing as evil.

      █████████████████████████████████████████

      by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:30:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This shooter may well have been the act (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1

      of a clinically-definable mentally disturbed person.  But many of them aren't.  The man who shot at the boys in the car because their music was too loud earlier this week had never been seen as mentally disturbed; the boys who shot up Columbine High School had never been accused of being mentally disturbed, just weird and anti-social.  

      The shooter at Virginia Tech had been diagnosed with severe anxiety disorder, but no one had followed up on the diagnosis, and that diagnosis, whether or not it was reported to authorities, resulted in no action being taken.

      There is a breakdown somewhere between realizing that a person represents a legitimate threat of violence, reporting it to authorities, and action being taken to preempt it.  From most reports, even when authorities are alerted to potential violence, they do not become involved until after the threatened violence has actually occurred.  This needs to change.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:24:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stop saying we need a conversation (5+ / 0-)

    We need gun control.  There's nothing to talk about.  Get it done.

  •  Unfortunately these Op/Eds will have but 1 result: (6+ / 0-)

    Driving up gun sales as people get nervous about hypothetical legislation that can't pass a teabagger House of Representatives.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:10:41 AM PST

  •  We have one party who is a wholly owned (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kestrel9000, DRo, Smoh

    subsidiary of every nutcase in America. They wear their chains of servitude with pride: The tbaggers, the NRA, Rush Limbo, Grover Norquist, and the kooky Koch Bros. There is no shame within them in their bowing down to these lesser gods but something they tout as THEIR badges of honor.

    We need to point out over and over and over again the servile nature of their bondage and the mental illness that seems to accompany it.

    American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

    by glitterscale on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:17:06 AM PST

  •  "Names so ordinary, so American, so unthreatening" (8+ / 0-)

    What I think the Washington Post really means: These were white children, living in the kind of nice suburban/ small town community that could well have voted Republican, hence "people like us" to the media pundits.

    The drip-drip-drip epidemic of black youth killed by gun violence -- which adds up to way more than 20 a year in any city in America, and likely thousands overall -- somehow doesn't seem as urgent. They're treated as somehow deserving it.

    And that's not to mention the children in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, killed by US-made and controlled drones and missiles. I am not a big fan of "God did this to punish us for X" reasoning, especially when the victims had nothing to do with the original crime. But I do have to say that when a country spends decades killing other people's children as "collateral damage" for some misguided warmongering, there's a certain karma in having that violence reverberate at home. I personally hope that the President can begin to make that connection, and reconsider the expansion of drone warfare.

    •  this observation is first cousin to the previous (0+ / 0-)

      observations as to the number of African American children murdered annually but if you were to survey the MSM you would assume that blue eyed blonde coeds were the population most at risk in our nation

  •  okay, here's my question with all due respect. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davidkc, dhshoops, skillet, DSPS owl, Smoh

    Who needs a hand gun?

     Humor me for a second, as I imagine the unimaginable.
    What if no one had a gun. No one. Would hand gun owners still need one?

    Hunters can use hunting rifles. Who needs a handgun?

    And semi-automatic? That's just nuts.

    "Say little, do much" (Pirkei Avot 1:15)

    by hester on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:18:42 AM PST

  •  from july 23 of this year (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kestrel9000, DRo, Smoh
    NRA: A lobby for criminals

    The NRA is a twisted, paranoid organization whose main achievement is to have made law enforcement harder

    it is part of a 3 part series.
  •  It's time to have a national conversation about (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SueDe, condorcet, Debby

    Americans killing each other, and sensible regulation of firearms is part of that conversation.

    Check out:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

    Number 5: America is an unusually violent country.

    In a violent country, people with access to guns will use them to kill other people.  Eliminating that access would save lives, but not fix the problem.  The worst mass school killing in American history (Bath school killings) was carried out with bombs, as was the worst mass killing by an American (Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City).

    Yes, there are reasonable actions that can and should be taken.  Even gun-happy Texas manages to regulate gun ownership at least somewhat.

    But it won't be enough if we don't look deeper.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:23:06 AM PST

    •  we've had enough talk about this (0+ / 0-)

      we need action on gun control. period.

    •  Yes, America is a violent country. (0+ / 0-)

      It would not necessarily make the country less violent, but some reasonable control of the ownership and public carrying of guns could make this country far less deadly.  

      People who think they should be allowed to own a hand gun should be able to buy and own one.  But why should they be able to carry it outside their home - or at least off their own property?  People who think they should be able to own an assault rifle should be told no, you don't have the right to own as assault rifle.  People who think they should be able to own an arsenal should be told no, you don't have that right, and if you amass an arsenal you will be locked up.  Of course that's all "shoulda, coulda, woulda" idealizing.

      Until we get a SCOTUS that is willing to overturn the Heller decision, we don't stand much chance to enact reasonable and rational gun control that would actually make much difference in the firearms death toll.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:58:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know what the regulations look like, (0+ / 0-)

        but yeah.

        Overturning Heller doesn't excite me because I think the Court got it right, and right in McDonald as well. The country's founders intended to protect our right to bear arms.  If that right is now archaic and inappropriate, the proper avenue is to amend the Constitution.

        I realize that it's unfashionable to want the Constitution to have meaning, but that same Constitution is the basis for some very important rights such as freedom of the press, protection against unreasonable search and seizure, the presumption of innocence, even the right to vote. It is, of necessity, a guideline more than a rulebook, but it isn't and shouldn't be infinitely plastic.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:25:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Heller decision (0+ / 0-)

          ignored the opening phrase of the 2nd Amendment dealing with a "well-regulated militia."  The only well-regulated militias today are the states' National Guard units.  Individuals not members of the National Guard should not be in possession of loaded weapons anywhere but their own private property or in a legally defined hunting area.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:33:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  i expected there would be fairly big regional (0+ / 0-)

      differences.

      i wonder how much of the correlation between tighter gun control and less gun violence is just a matter of the south vs the northeast.

      •  Good question. (0+ / 0-)

        It's also interesting to ask if the places most likely to regulate firearms are also the places with the smallest firearms problems.

        Odd, though, to see both California and Nevada all hashed in, even though the shades of yellow/orange are very different.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:07:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  How about... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo

    ...treating the cowards who insist on carrying concealed weapons like we do sex offenders? It looks like those of us in Illinois will have to deal with armed cowards whether we want to or not, so why not post the names of those who have concealed carry permits as well as where they live on a handy Internet page? I'd like to know of one of these crazy bastards is living next door to me.

    Further, is there any reason concealed carry permits couldn't be priced at, say $500, and good for only one year at a time? The proceeds could be used for anti-gun public relations campaigns.

    I've come to the conclusion that we really do need a national anti-gun effort, modeled on the anti-smoking campaign, in order to take the romance out of gun ownership. Having gun buyers fund it makes good sense.

    •  This (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh
      why not post the names of those who have concealed carry permits as well as where they live on a handy Internet page
      is unhelpful.
      Many people who have concealed weapon permits have them because they were victims of domestic violence or witnesses against organized crime, or because they routinely carry large sums of cash.
      You would place lives in material danger to assuage your own fears?

      If we are to have this discussion, both sides need to calm down....and we need to figure out a way to deny the NRA a seat at the table.

      █████████████████████████████████████████

      by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:37:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Breaking snark from the NRA and J. Carney: This is (0+ / 0-)

    not the time to talk about gun control.

    "A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere ". C. S. Lewis

    by TofG on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:36:24 AM PST

    •  you've really got it in for Carney, don't you? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      In every thread, you're speaking of him as if he's in charge of policy.

      I don't understand the focus on him.

      “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

      by SottoVoce on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:15:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Poor word choice. (0+ / 0-)

        We've been told, over and over, "Now is not the time." The obvious question then is "when?" I think people of good conscience have felt the need to give some berth, to provide a time of mourning, before charging in to the debate but as we reel from one tragedy to another, "Now is not the time," delivered with authority from on high, is unwelcome. He probably should have said something like, "I can't speak to that right now," to sound less authoritative and to give ground to the possibility that we may, at last, have the conversation and make some moves toward limiting these tragedies.

        Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. --Mark Twain

        by Debby on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:01:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK quibble with his word choice. That (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Debby

          I understand.  But this poster has been all over the site for the past two days casting the blame on Carney as if he were responsible for all the unpassed gun laws of the last decade.  I think it's weird, and certainly the wrong focus.  

          I agree that it's long past time for serious gun laws.  But before the names of the dead kindergartners were even released, or any kind of complete information gathered, to expect the spokesman for the President to launch into a specific plan (before the President himself had weighed in) is beyond unreasonable.  

          “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

          by SottoVoce on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 10:15:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Here's some food for thought on this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo, Herodotus Prime, Smoh

    I'm working on a Senseless Tragedy edition of Top Comments for tonight about the search for a sensible gun policy in this country. Think Progress posted a list of 29 mass (well, more than one death) gun incidents since Columbine, and 14 of them (roughly half for those of you who haven't had your coffee yet) happened after the election of 2008.  Why the acceleration?

    -7.75, -8.10; All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:41:24 AM PST

    •  Fox "news" fear factory (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dave in Northridge, SottoVoce

      Started in 1996(?). I would bet that the mass shooting numbers go up as the level of crazy bs that they are pumping out increases.

      The conservative media complex is a web of falsehood but for those afflicted by it, the picture it paints is terrifying. In Bowling for Columbine there is an entire section on how the fear industry gets cranked up in America.

      Fox "news," the conservative entertainment complex, and Wayne Lapierre create the demand. As they've refined their techniques, the get better "results." Fear sells more guns. It really is that simple.

      Wanted: New sig line. Must be insightful with a good sense of humor. Non-smoking, no pets.

      by Herodotus Prime on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:34:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is it in a nutshell (0+ / 0-)
        Fear sells more guns.
         

        “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

        by SottoVoce on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:17:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Hartford Courant pretty much summed up (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NancyK

    my thoughts this morning.  We can throw up our hands and lament that nothing can be done and it's too late, or we can dig in and do our best to change things before Sandy Hook becomes just another tear stained page in America's scrapbook of shame.

  •  Look at all those Congresscritters... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davidkc

    bathing in NRA blood money.

    And the Democrats on that list need to find a new party.

    ~Doc~

    -7.88 -8,77 Just a wine sipping, brie eating, $6 coffee drinking, Prius driving, over educated, liberal, white, activist, male New Englander for Barack Obama.

    by EquationDoc on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:47:23 AM PST

  •  Huckabee one the race to the bottom on this night- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh

    mare. Claimed this stuff happens because we have driven god from our schools or some such bullshit. Why do mean spirited, disgusting people like him grab the mantle of the pious, urinate on it and they glue it to their skulls?

  •  The Courant is correct (0+ / 0-)

    yesterday's event, just up the road from me in Connecticut, has changed me. I don't care what it takes, semi-automatic assault rifles must be limited to the military and hand gun ownership must be severely restricted.

    Nationally, it's going to be difficult, but my guess is here in Ct we can get something done.

    I was wrong before yesterday. I'm gonna try and get involved.

    Victory is sweet-November 6, 2012

    by al23 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:49:54 AM PST

  •  Deja vu all over again (0+ / 0-)

    I posted something similar to what I am writing here after one of the last mass shootings.  This current one will follow the now all too familiar script.  Many will ask "How could this happen?" and others will say "We need to do something!"  But nothing will get done.  In time the shock of this will wear off and we will go back to life as usual (except for those who lost children or other loved ones in this massacre...life will never be normal again for them).  Time will pass and we will go through this all over again.  Another massacre and the script will play over again.  The question in my mind is how many more of these will have to happen before we, as a People, say "Enough!" and demand that our spineless, gutless politicians stand up the NRA and make some changes?

  •  NRA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    The killer lobby in America.

  •  NRA = Terrorist Organization (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    They have aided and abetted the killing of more Americans within our Nations birders than al Qaeda.

    Think about it.

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:57:58 AM PST

    •  It's not even close. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      US Blues

      Guns kill 35,000 a year. Every year. Majority suicides, where situational depression is not all that hard to treat. 15,000 homicides. None of it necessary.

      al-Q is well under 10,000 total. That's including the nutty Bush43 responses to 9/11.

  •  How can you askfor common sense when half the (5+ / 0-)

    country thinks Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Rush, Michael Savage, and the rest of the wingnuts are actually sentient human beings who want what is best for the country and her people? These people LOVE their guns. Sarah was shown shooting wolves from a chopper. A right wing acolyte, Ted Nugent, is famous for his camo-wearin', gun-totin', shoot an Uzi at anything in the woods persona and wishes he could stick a gun rod up Hillary Clinton's "glory hole."
    THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT SANE.
    And it's what those of use who are sane have been crying and they yelling and then screaming about for years as the Democrats and "progressives" have bent over backwards to make the crazies happy.
    Want to stop violence? Stop appeasing the right. Stop acting like they actually have ideas, or that there really are two sides to every opinion.
    Stop selling video games that have the players roaming the streets killing every pedestrian and driver they can, with rivers of blood and sounds of screaming.
    The music and entertainment industry could help by not banning, but discouraging misogynistic, sexist, racist, homophobic, violent crap in favor of real music and real stories. Pander to the base instincts of man and you will get his (or her) base instincts.
    Which brings me to Fox. Yeah, Fox. The station that nightly denigrates 50% of the nation as un-American, lazy, wrong, and, worst of all, dangerous. When you have a "news" outlet that is allowed to call for the death of an American, and that American is shot and killed inside his church, there is something wrong with that news organization. We wonder where those who denigrate Obama as a monkey, a Kenyan-nazi-socialist-facist-Nword get their ideas. Turn on Fox. Turn on right wing radio. 30-40 years of lies, propaganda and hate have done an awful job on our nation identity and divided us into two groups who hate each other. If they do not serve the public interest, yank their licenses.
    How about putting more money into mental health and social services? Let's try to help those who have been falling through the cracks. The guy in Newtown used guns legally registered to his mother. But he was mentally ill. He needed more help than she could probably give him on a nursery school teacher's salary. And yet all the right wants to do is cut social services, welfare, and throw the mentally ill on the streets where they become the homeless mentally ill. Let's try helping people so they either can't or won't snap.
    Legalize drugs. Marijuana absolutely - right now. But look at other drugs. Figure out a way to pour money into drug programs for addictive drugs - after all, is heroin any worse than oxycontin addiction? We're failing at drug regulation whether legal or not. And stop spending wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on eradicating a weed. Since 75% of the drug cartels' profits come from weed, it'll take a huge bite out of their operation. It may even affect gun running, since that has a lot to do with cartels and gangs whose major profits come from drugs, again, mostly marijuana.
    Finally, regulate guns. Ensure that people can't sell them out of their trunk at a gun show. Have federal gun laws so we don't have "border bleed" that results in real blood. Background check anyone and everyone who wants a gun. Set limits on the size of arsenal one person can have. Have education about safe handling. And if you screw up and leave your sig sauer unlocked and something happens, you lose you right to own a gun...forever.

    You see, it's not just guns. It's everything. Those who perpetrated Columbine, Newtown, Aurora, VA Tech and shot Gabby Giffords were clearly mentally ill. How and why were they able to buy weapons of mass destruction?

    We've got to have the conversation. But it needs to be about more than handguns. A lot more.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:58:09 AM PST

    •  Anybody who assembles an arsenal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MA Liberal

      just out of the blue... go visit them.

      How hard is that ?????????

      These crazy young shooters follow the same pattern. All of them.

      -- Put up a nickel-and-dime database with data on gun purchases.

      -- Run a dollar's worth of queries a day to backtrack arsenal building.

      -- Handle arsenal-building like it was somebody screaming bloody murder at the start of a domestic violence incident.

      These young males can get crazy from paranoid schizophrenia, extreme paranoia, effects of mind altering drugs such as PCP. But they all go buy several guns prior to shooting up the kindergarten/movie/temple.

      This is a less than $500,000 project to build it for national support.

      A determined shooter could avoid the system. He could do burglary to get guns. But remember... he's likely borderline psychotic, well into insane.

      The shooter is not thinking. Not normally.

  •  It's time to address the gun issue (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debby

    Hell with the fiscal cliff crap.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:17:20 AM PST

  •  killing kids (0+ / 0-)

    I wonder if Obama makes the connection to this tragedy and his continual murder of innocent foreign children by drones?

    The hypocrisy is disgusting.

  •  probably (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh

    Probably the mass murderer showed signs of psychological illness before this incident-- and was not properly treated.  States starting saving money in the 1970s by releasing insane people from state supported institutions--saved money--basically it was cheaper to have the sick destroy a family by harboring them in their houses--or by letting the ill become homeless.  Such neglect leads to insane acts--and at some level--it's wrong to blame a bleeding man for staining your environment.

    Apres Bush, le deluge.

    by melvynny on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:49:18 AM PST

  •  Minor Sensibility - temporary? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh

      Over on the Gov. website there are numerous petitions re: gun law discussion.
        Wax and Wane poetically here?  How hard is it to sign a petition?
         The only thing that I say was that MI - Senate withdrew their law yesterday....will it be permanent?  

         Less we forget: who eliminated Fed Mental Health funding - historically it was Reagan - using the faux and often repeated tag-line by the GOP:  It is better left in the hands of the States.
         How about not being baffled by BS - because this will be the talking point by NRA - when it comes out from hiding.  That and recognize that the NRA lobbying has a different POV and power than do the rank and file members (TRMS last night).   Why not start there, with NRA member's.

        Those are my garbled /rambling thoughts on this.

         

  •  Or how about... (0+ / 0-)

    this?

    A screwdriver shaped like a revolver. The gift that everyone needs.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:06:34 AM PST

  •  There's a question not being asked... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missquested, FloraLine

    ...what's wrong with young white men?  If the mass killers were comprised of any other demographic such as latino, asian, black, female, imagine the outrage.  It would be the subject of national headlines, talk shows, congressional hearings, calls for profiling, psychological studies...yet, these perpetrators are getting a pass on that level.  Shouldn't some attention be paid to the category of these mass killers in order to fully address this crisis? Why are young white men attempting to kill groups of people in schools, restaurants, malls and movie theaters?  Why are we ignoring that question?

  •  Really, nothing like demonizing the mentally ill.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh

    ...as the predictable response to all of this.

    There is no explanation, only heartbreak at the massacre of innocent children, many in kindergarten, at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. Once again we have been reminded of the horror that the hateful and deranged can wreak upon the innocent.
    Lock them all up!  Why haven't we thrown them all into prison yet, permanently? Has it ever occurred to most people talking about this that the reason so few of these shooters have mental health histories is because there are so many obstacles to mental health care, and such a stigma attached to it, such a risk of profound civil and social isolation? One doesn't know, but one can't help but ask how much suffering and tragedy could be averted if we got serious about providing universally accessible, short and long term mental heath care in this country.
  •  No Amount of Gun Control can STOP This (0+ / 0-)

    It only takes ONE gun for someone to commit an act like this.

    Argue all you want about "making it harder to get one", but it will never be impossible.

    Given that we can't reduce the probability to zero, we need to come up with better ways to prevent or minimize the outcome.

    1 - Better security measures at schools.  Reportedly he broke in threw a window, that should set off alarms and immediate lockdown procedures

    2 - Armed security. The Principal responded and reportedly was killed attempting to disarm the shooter.  The body count may have been lower, perhaps much lower, if she'd been accompanied by an armed guard.

    It's easy to jump on the "ban guns" wagon after something like this; the shootings are always highly sensationalized.  It should be news, but we should also be made aware of when people successfully defend themselves and others.

    Those stories are rarely known outside of the immediate local area.  Check out some of documented Armed Citizen reports at http://www.nraila.org/...

    The LA Times reported that the Toll in Oregon mall shooting could have been higher citing the Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts [who] said the body count in the rampage could have been higher. The sheriff then stated:

    "A variety of things" helped reduce the loss of lives, he said, including the gunman's weapon jamming.
    While he mentioned a "variety of things" the article only specified one - the gunman's weapon jamming. Perhaps included, but not reported in this article, was the presence of an armed citizen.

    As reported in Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter

    Nick Meli ... who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

    "I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli.  "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself.

    I agree that we should have a debate on gun control - but it should be an INFORMED debate; not a one-sided discussion with a pre-determined outcome.

    Unless we look at all of the facts, we can't make an informed decision.

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