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legal vs illegal guns involved in deaths
via Ezra Klein, Washington Post
When many people in Newtown count the victims in last week’s massacre, they tally 20 children in Sandy Hook Elementary School, plus six adult faculty and staff members. Few count shooter Adam Lanza’s first victim: his mother, Nancy. Police said that before he attacked the schoolhouse, Adam Lanza pumped four bullets into his mother’s head as she lay in bed.
A raw fact of life in Newtown: The number is 26, even though 28 died. Two don't get talked about.

Another raw fact: you don't go into the middle of town for errands unless you have to. Streets are jammed at certain times of day. First thing in the morning, you check the funeral schedule. They are happening all this week, with nine events (funerals or wakes) Wednesday alone, 11 today. Support from police and firefighters as well as townsfolk has been solid. But the impromptu signs on lamp poles and lawns (Pray for Newtown; We are love; Stay strong) break your heart.

If you want to plan a rational response, read this from Ezra Klein:

When we first collected much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”

Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.:

Maureen McDermott Gill:
None of the weapons Lanza carried into the Sandy Hook Elementary School are for hunting. They are for quickly and efficiently killing people. Not deer, not quail, not even big game like elephants – the Bushmaster, Glock and Sig Sauer are military and police weapons intended to take down human beings. They are weapons that show no mercy; they use ammunition that destroys tissue and internal organs – ammo that is expressly made to drop people in their tracks. Repetitively firing these bullets into human flesh will literally macerate and tear apart the human body. Think about it: They are not used to hunt game animals because they are so destructive to tissue. Connecticut Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver, knows of what he speaks, and he said the bullets “are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in.” Dr. Carver described the wounds that killed the children and teachers at Newtown as a “very devastating set of injuries.”

Gun advocates say these weapons are for “sport.” I want to repeat that: “Sport.” Well, I suppose that’s true if you’re sport-hunting humans.

One the one hand, Doyle McManus:
If you're thinking that last week's tragedy in Newtown, Conn., makes it likely that Congress will soon pass stricter federal gun laws, remember this: People thought the same thing in 2011, after a gunman shot into a Tucson crowd, killing six and injuring others, including Gabrielle Giffords, one of the House of Representatives' own members.

Public support for gun control tends to swell after a mass shooting. But then, just as quickly, it tends to ebb, and opponents are happy to wait the process out.

On the other hand, WaPo:
While the NRA devoted most of its national campaign efforts this year to supporting Republicans and opposing President Obama, the group has historically gained its clout in Washington by nurturing close ties to lawmakers in both parties, particularly those from rural areas who have counted on the NRA’s blessing to get elected.

But several recent factors have altered that calculus. And, with the horror of the Newtown school shootings forcing gun control back onto the national agenda, a decline in the NRA’s traditional bipartisan strength provides gun-control advocates with what they see as their best prospects in nearly two decades.

Andrew Rosenthal:
Of course these positive indicators aren’t proof that Mr. Obama has learned how to muscle through his agenda. The fiscal cliff proposal that led to Mr. Boehner’s Plan B was full of significant, arguably unnecessary concessions that the Republicans—predictably—ignored.

And did Mr. Obama really need to bother with a task force? Politicians love special commissions and blue ribbon panels, because they make them look serious. But the solutions these groups identify are generally obvious. Here’s a tip for Mr. Biden: Google “Bloomberg” and “guns” and then read Mayor Mike’s “6 ways to stop gun madness” Op-Ed  in USA Today.

Christian Science Monitor:
We only take notice when gun violence is sufficiently spectacular, such as at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. But on a typical day in the US, 33 people are murdered by guns, and 50 die in gun-related suicides. It's time to regulate.
There's a fiscal cliff, too. I'll get back to it when folks are finished posturing.

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Comment Preferences

  •  A study in 1998 (30+ / 0-)

    The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

    by Brit on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:33:10 AM PST

    •  Watch for an increase in the number of successful (10+ / 0-)

      "defense" events of home and person by NRA members in which no attacker is identified and police can find no evidence there was an attack.
      Know what I mean?

      Oh, and it will probably be a "gang" of semiauto wielding attackers who are deterred by a "bushmaster".

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:56:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then there this from only yesterday (14+ / 0-)
        Loaded gun, left in Tillamook theater, found by seventh graders

        When Kolton McKinney, 12, unfolded the seat in a Tillamook movie theater Wednesday morning and heard a "plink," he thought a part of the seat might have fallen out.
        Then the boy heard his friend say, "Dude, there's a gun."

        A loaded Beretta 9mm semi-automatic handgun, that is. One bullet in the chamber. The safety off.

        The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

        by Brit on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:09:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course. Weapons provided for customer (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Heart of the Rockies, Mary Mike

          convenience in case a shooter enters through an exit at the rear of the theater and needs to be taken out.  Right?  Soon the holsters will be integrated into the cupholders.  

          Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

          by judyms9 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:20:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My first thought (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            was that it might have been left for a shooter who decided not to go through with it...

            Either he left it...when he decided to be sane...or, less likely, someone left it for him and he never showed.

            Unlikely someone would have accidentally dropped and not noticed a concealed that's really unlikely.

            When we have so many guns that they're just laying around to be picked up by kids...

        •  And on Monday, a sixth grader took a .22 to... (9+ / 0-)


          The unidentified little boy said his parents told him to bring the unloaded .22 pistol to school for protection...

          ...One girl said the unidentified 11-year-old pointed the pistol at her..."At recess, he pointed a gun to my head and said he was going to kill me...”

        •  If there's one constant among the gun advocates (16+ / 0-)

          who post on forums such as this, it's the extreme reverence at the trustworthiness and responsibility of people who (are so unable to deal with the stress of life that they) have obtained a concealed carry permit to give them peace of mind. Note that the parenthetical is my interpretation, they like to portray it as being "responsible for one's own safety."

          You see it in other forums as well.  Concealed carry people are responsible. They're not the criminals. They have to pass all kinds of qualifying tests. They're not the problem.

          Regarding the incident Brit posted above, a bit more about the story:

          On Wednesday evening, Gary Quackenbush, 61, turned up at the theater seeking his missing gun, "like it would be in the lost and found with lost eyeglasses and other things," said (Tillamook County Sheriff Andy) Long.

          "He has a concealed handgun license," Long said. "That will be revoked tonight. The law says if you are a danger to yourself or the public, it can be revoked."

          When the reporters for The Oregonian called his house for comment, they were brushed off with a comment to "Get a life."

          Yep, just another adult, serious, responsible concealed carry owner.

          We're all so proud.  

          •  See, now if there were only open carry permit - (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            instead of concealed carry, someone around him, or with him, might have noticed, and said, "'Scuse me, Sir, weren't you wearing a gun when you came in? Did you, by any chance, leave it in the rest room?"

            /snark (kind of)

            Like, Sir, I think you left your hat.

          •  Luckily that episode ended as it should. However, (0+ / 0-)

            just the fact that their are more guns out there floating around, means that there will be more accidents or incidents as a result.
            Just as an increased number of ladders in a community will result in an increased incidence of falls.
            It's a no brainer.
            The gun industry is banking on more Newtowns as a justification for more Quackenbushes.

            (I won''t make fun of the name as I know some very nice Quackenbushes, but it's hard not to make something of it.)

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:21:53 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Generally, yes, you could say that certified (0+ / 0-)

            carriers are responsible.
            However, the more you make outrageous, racist, hysterical appeals to the vulnerable disgruntled paranoids out there with a hum-drum life or with Walter Mitty fantasies of being a hero, or with wacky conspiracy theories, etc., the more you will have unhinged or incompetent people waving guns around or dropping them in theatres where a child can pick it up and play with it.

            They can't have it both ways.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:26:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  it gets worse (0+ / 0-)

            He's a federally licensed firearms dealer:

        •  Wiki says a child dies every three days (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          by gunfire.  That means Sixty-Six Sandy Hooks-worth of children have been killed since 9-11.  Sixty-six!  

          And if the Christian Science monitor numbers are correct (83 gun-caused deaths per day in the general populace), then that means a third of a million people have been killed since 9-11.  That roughly Sixty-Six Iraq Wars worth of U.S. soldiers.  

          That's sick.

          Gun ownership is a disease. Cure the disease. Rid the guns.  

      •  NRA bullshit counteroffensive underway (10+ / 0-)

        Look up Pearl River Mississippi.  I guess a kid went on a rampage, killed 2 people and shot 7 others and was stopped on the way out by the assistant proncipal who had a .45.  

        That's their justification for having guns.  He only killed 2 people with guns before he was stopped with one, ON HIS WAY OUT.  

        Fucking pathetic.  People actually buy this bullshit.

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:12:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  that's not what the study said (0+ / 0-)

      If you follow the link, those are the numbers for actual shootings - that is, for every justifiable or self-defense shooting, there are 4 accidents, etc.

      What this ignores is that, in the vast majority of self-defense events in which a firearm is used, no shots are fired. The presence of the weapon in itself is enough to deter the attacker.

      While our firearms laws are way too lax in this country, that doesn't mean that self-defense is not a legitimate reason for owning a firearm. Also, we need to be careful that in pushing for tighter gun laws in the wake of this tragedy, we don't overlook the crucial need for overhauling mental health care in this country, which quite frankly would do a lot more to prevent tragedies like this and lesser ones than any futile attempt to ban firearms.

      •  I don't believe it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Sorry, but this seems to be just another NRA wet dream.  How does one even begin to assess a situation and conclude that "Well, if i didn't have my gun on me, he would'a shot me"???

      •  That's what the study says (0+ / 0-)

        Now you can speculate about the virtues of gun proliferation. But all the stats say the Americans are 100 times more likely to die by gunshot than a Brit.

        You feel safer?

        By your logic, proliferation is good. So why not allow every nation to amass as many nuclear weapons as it likes?

        The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

        by Brit on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 11:19:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Studies also... (0+ / 0-)

          ...say pretty much the same thing about the Swiss, Germans, Norweigians, Canadians, French and Icelanders - all of whom have from one-third to one-half the private gun ownership levels we do. So if they have one-third the guns but less than one-percent of the gun violence, it's obvious there's more to this that mere gun ownership.

          Sure, the gun laws in this country are way too lax but the main problem is cultural. If you want to make a real impact, address the dismal state of mental health care in this country and the whole cultural attitude that says you're a nobody unless you're an alpha who imposes his will on the world. That's the fundamental problem.

  •  My hope is that ... (6+ / 0-)

    ... the Biden group can focus the debate on concrete ideas that may help stem the flood of guns, quell the disturbing rants from the cold dead fingers crowd and quiet the concerns of resposible gun owners.

    Then, we may accomplish some good.

    It is the season of hope, isn't it?

    •  Cold dead fingers. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      megisi, Melanie in IA

      In light of recent events, I'm envisioning cute little, some pudgy, cold, dead fingers.

      I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

      by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:50:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  gun found by 7th grader in theater (6+ / 0-)

      I used to Live in Tillamook. these kids literally dodged a bullet this time.

    •  How does history look at this? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener, belle1

      From the standpoint of future historians, how will they look at a nation that allowed 350 million guns that are such efficient killing machines into the population?  Will they look back at Charlton Heston's famous speech to the NRA?  Will they examine the political action committees who used fear and loathing to promote sales and the political support for guns?

      And how will they look upon Democrats who gave up the fight on guns for about 15 years?

      I think this is a very dark stain on our history--one that deeply effects Mexico as well--and in hindsight we will see it as one of our largest failures.

      •  History will be cruel (0+ / 0-)

        We live in a nation that invaded a foreign country for no reason, tortured and slaughtered their people. Our political leaders have done everything they can to ensure that homicidal maniacs can gun down scores of people in mere seconds. A child murderer is celebrated by one political party as a hero! We have become that which we once abhorred. We are "the good Germans" that stood by and allowed atrocity after atrocity to happen.

        --- Keep Christian mythology out of science class! @cybersaur1

        by cybersaur on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 07:50:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  ha! (14+ / 0-)
    There's a fiscal cliff, too. I'll get back to it when folks are finished posturing.
    don't hold your breath

    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

    by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:38:45 AM PST

  •  Maya Angelou Public Charter School - where I teach (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    perhaps you will understand why I came out of retirement to teach if you examine this post</> which has a video of the school and a few additional comments by me

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:41:35 AM PST

  •  Memo to GOP/NRA.......when you're stuck in a box (6+ / 0-)

    canyon.....try reversing your steps to get out.

  •  Borked (17+ / 0-)

    The Rude One
    Guns and the Constitution: "Keep and Bear," Not "Buy and Sell":

    In 1989, now-deceased conservative megahero and Amish bearded fucksack Judge Robert Bork said, "I'm not an expert on the Second Amendment, but its intent was to guarantee the right of states to form militia, not for individuals to bear arms." In the same lecture, he added that "assault weapons could be banned under the Constitution," and that other restrictions on guns were constitutional. In 1991, he went at the gun rights' lobby: "[T]he National Rifle Association is always arguing that the Second Amendment determines the right to bear arms. But I think it really is people's right to bear arms in a militia. The NRA thinks that it protects their right to have Teflon-coated bullets. But that's not the original understanding."

    "The Second Amendment was designed to allow states to defend themselves against a possibly tyrannical national government. Now that the federal government has stealth bombers and nuclear weapons, it is hard to imagine what people would need to keep in the garage to serve that purpose."

    White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

    by BOHICA on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:44:36 AM PST

  •  Memo to PBO.....Louie Gohmert will NEVER vote with (5+ / 0-)


  •  A recent shooting in NYC near the empire state bld (12+ / 0-)

    resulted in innocent civilians caught in the cross fire being shot by NYC police. So arming teachers kinda sounds really dumb in that context

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:45:39 AM PST

  •  Yesterday was a busy day for testifying (16+ / 0-)

    Crist testifies in Senate that there was voter suppression in Florida

    Sen. Bill Nelson and Charlie Crist say Florida tried to disenfranchise voters

    In a nation with a growing number of laws restricting voting practices, Florida stood as exhibit A in a hearing Wednesday by the Senate Judiciary Committee.
    In a surprise visit to the hearing, Nelson offered what he said was proof that changes in Florida law were designed to affect the outcome of the election.

    Nelson introduced into evidence a deposition unearthed by The Palm Beach Post. It showed that the Republican attorney who engineered the 2000 Florida felons list, which African American leaders said purged thousands of eligible blacks from voter rolls, drafted Florida’s controversial law that restricted early voting and voter registration campaigns in 2012. Nelson also included into the Congressional record a story by The Palm Beach Post on so-called voter suppression efforts.

    And a busy day for flip flopping:  Scott calls for "bipartisan" plan to fix Florida's elections
    Gov. Rick Scott said Wednesday that the state should extend its early voting period to avoid long lines and other chaos at the Florida polls, abruptly reversing a position he vigorously defended before and after the tumultuous November general election.

    As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them. John F. Kennedy

    by JaxDem on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:46:09 AM PST

  •  Someone should do a diary on (6+ / 0-)

    what our allies think of us at a time like this, not that it would hold any sway over the anti-gun control folks.

    To make matters even worse, I saw a post on facebook yesterday by a woman who claims to have a heightened ability to detect conspiracies afoot.

    Did you know our own government slaughtered those children in order to build momentum for gun control?

    I had to delete my response. I was so angry, it bordered on deranged. One nut per comment thread is enough.

    I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

    by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:48:07 AM PST

  •  Thanks Greg. Hope you are okay. Up here in (13+ / 0-)

    West Hartford, there was a meeting at the high school last night and one this Sunday at the Episcopal Church. Both about grieving and support.

    My hope is that this time will be different.

    It ain't complicated. I agree with all the calls for banning semi-automatics and making clips smaller,etc. But I think what they did in Australia was very smart. Huge buy back program. Huge.

    It'd be a start.

    What I want will never happen. No guns at all. Hunt those deer w bow and arrow if you must.

    Hugs to you. Wanted to come down w my old Newfie to give solace, but her gentle ways might be better for later. When the  media and everyone else is gone. Then she and I will come down and hang out and she can give comfort.

    "Say little, do much" (Pirkei Avot 1:15)

    by hester on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:48:25 AM PST

    •  Newfies are cool......Looks like you're going to (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JML9999, hester, skohayes

      be be needing a Dog Food Supply Store....;-)

    •  I agree with your sentiment, hester. (9+ / 0-)

      I'm a non-hunter, but a rural person for most all of my life. Bow-only doesn't work for me. I dodge deer with my car on a daily basis.
      Because we have killed or chased off their natural predators, deer herd numbers in my part of NY can be a problem. Hunting them needs to be as efficient as possible.
      I hunt with my camera in the off-seasons. I love wildlife. But Man's part of the natural order tends to disrupt or radically alter the food chain. We kill off what would hunt and kill us, thus eliminating common adversaries for larger game animals.
      One of the reason the DEC has allowed revival of coyotes in my area is to help cull the herds. Unfortunately, when I took my dogs out for their nightly duties last night, all hell was breaking loose. It sounded like the coyotes had found one of my neighbor's free-roaming dogs.
      It was a very unpleasant sound. Such is rural "bliss". With the quiet and the beauty, you gotta be able to accept some not-so-idyllic aspects as well.

      I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

      by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:01:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sounds like newtown (literally) (8+ / 0-)

        small dogs don't go out alone at night.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:03:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Against a coyote, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          even big dogs should not. And coyotes might hunt at night, but they also are about in the daylight hours. If a dog is allowed to roam the fields...

          When I was growing up, all dogs in my town roamed free. It was just what dogs did. They hunted, wandered, played... but there were no coyotes around then. Now, I hear them so often at night that the novelty has worn off.

          I'm not sure of the truth of it, but I've heard it said that a single coyote will "befriend" a dog and lead it back to its pack for slaughter.

          Coyotes are not like dogs. They are bigger, with longer jaws and bigger teeth. They lope instead of trotting. Their brains are more advanced. They're cunning. You almost never see a healthy one. I've only seen a live one once in the wild, trotting across a barren corn field in broad daylight, about an eighth mile from my house. It must have been sick to be so close in broad daylight. There is no mistaking one for a dog. Their movement is distinctive.

          I've heard them traveling and calling to one another over distances while they hunt. They can really move.

          I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

          by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:18:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We have coyotes all over (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            One Opinion, Onomastic

            the place out here. It's not unusual to see one in the day time, as that is their natural hunting time. They are not nocturnal, though the ones closer to suburban and urban areas might stay hidden to avoid people.
            Coyotes don't befriend domesticated dogs to lure them off to the pack- most one on one encounters will end up with the coyote running away, because coyotes are not aggressive animals. When they're in a pack (usually only during breeding season) is when they will attack dogs.
            I love being out on the high plains in the spring and hearing them "sing".
            Truthfully, Florida loses many more dogs to alligators than are taken by coyotes out here in their natural habitat.

            “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

            by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:00:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Fair point. Tyvm. I guess it depends upon where (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gentle Giant, Sharon Wraight, mmacdDE

        each of us lives. And that's okay too. Make the laws broad enough to include the rural areas, but strict enough to prevent another slaughter.

        "Say little, do much" (Pirkei Avot 1:15)

        by hester on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:07:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We have plenty of coyotes, (5+ / 0-)

        and some cougars as well, so where I live, out away from town, we have a modest number of deer that present no problems.  

        In town, however, is another matter.  They are a scourge.  It is possible to see a herd of 50-70 deer at dawn or dusk.  They are in people's yards and on their porches. How to regulate their numbers is a thorny problem, as it has been in the East for a long time.

        Last week we saw a pair of robust coyotes chasing a doe at dusk.  For a number of reasons, we think she survived.  It is upsetting to see, but I always tell myself, "Coyotes need to eat, too."  And most people consume domestic animals as part of their diet.

  •  I'm about to suggest something dramatic (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, cybersaur, BachFan

    and horrific:  Let the television networks broadcast unretouched photographs of every bullet-ridden body whenever and wherever there is a death, pixelating the faces, of course.  We seem to think that photographs of diseased lungs on cigarette packages will deter people from smoking, so why wouldn't pictures of bodies with gaping wounds force people to recognize how necessary it is to control firearms in the US??  I know it's a disturbing and disgusting thing to suggest, but aren't we to the point where desperate acts require desperate measures??  This must stop.  But once the dust has settled, the funerals are over, and the media have found other more "important" things to cover, I'm desperately afraid we'll be back to where we were before.  The NRA and their worshippers will not go down without a fight.  

    -7.13 / -6.97 "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -- Edmund Burke

    by GulfExpat on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:48:40 AM PST

    •  It is a problem (0+ / 0-)

      The voting public is shielded from the horrific effects of the policies so many of them support.
      I fully agree with you that the mutilated bodies of the victims should be shown to the public. This is even more important during all the wars we fight for no reason. The visceral reaction people would have if they could see the evil such policies unleash would go a long way to stopping those things from being done in the first place.
      How many people could keep supporting wars and gun nuts after seeing the mangled bodies of children slaughtered by those policies? No human being with any empathy could.

      --- Keep Christian mythology out of science class! @cybersaur1

      by cybersaur on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 08:01:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Charles Blow has an interesting chart on guns (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, marykk, skohayes

    violence, etc. in his column this morning.

    Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. Harry Truman

    by ratcityreprobate on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:50:34 AM PST

  •  Well, sorry for the posturing about the fiscal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg Dworkin, LilithGardener, paradox

    cliff but when the rug get's pulled from under you, you may find it's bad for your posture.

    Slow thinkers - keep right

    by Dave the Wave on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:51:07 AM PST

    •  what rug? (3+ / 0-)

      Boehner is more interested in saving his job than in saving Americans from a tax increase.

      But it would appear that the House Republican caucus wasn’t all that impressed with Boehner’s dance moves. Plan B is a huge step backward, a retreat away from negotiation and onto the safe but counterproductive territory of the ultimatum. After the House passes Plan B, he said Wednesday, “Then the president will have a decision to make. He can call on the Senate Democrats to pass that bill, or he can be responsible for the largest tax increase in American history.”
      He knows that the Senate isn’t going to pass the bill, and he knows Obama won’t sign it. If this is where the Republicans stop the dance, then it’s obviously going to be the case that he’ll be right in a sense come Jan. 1, when there is no deal and marginal tax rates from bottom to top revert back to the higher Clinton-era rates...

      But that was when Boehner was negotiating. Now that he’s apparently not, it’s just a decoy. He’s walking away. It may save his speakership, but it’s going to harm his party, to say nothing of the country. The American people are unlikely to be confused on these points.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:09:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •   Worth a mention is Harold Meyerson's (13+ / 0-)

    "Why does America have so many guns?" with:

    And yet, I’ve never heard even the staunchest gun advocate make the case that Americans are inherently more homicidal than everyone else. They repeat ad nauseum that people, not guns, kill people; but they don’t argue that there’s something about Americans that make them kill more than their counterparts in other nations.

    Meanwhile, look at the numbers. In the United States, there are 3.2 gun homicides per 100,000 residents every year. Switzerland has the next highest rate of any advanced Western democracy, at 0.7 per 100,000. After Switzerland, the rate drops to 0.5 in Ireland and Canada; 0.4 in Sweden and Finland; 0.2 in New Zealand, Spain and Germany; 0.1 in France, Britain and Australia; and a flat 0 in Japan.

    Want to argue that we have 32 times the rate of dangerous mental illness that they have in Australia? That Americans are characterologically 16 times more murderous than Spaniards or Germans? I thought not.

    May as well say "people, not tractors, plow fields" while it is clearly evident a man with a tractor will plow one hell of a lot more field in minutes than a man with a hand plow or even a mule. That trite NRA/fetishist defense of nearly unrestricted availability has long been pure logical bullshit.

    The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

    by pelagicray on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:52:17 AM PST

  •  Capitalism Kills (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gentle Giant

    After horrible shootings, there is a big surge in people who want more regulations against guns. But this always fades and the moneyed opposition never relents. They will payoff politicians to undo any victories of the opposition, and their timeframe is never give up. This is why previous ban on assault weapons was not renewed.  Activism to do the right thing has a difficult time competing with corporations who profit from doing the wrong thing.  This is the sad, sad story in America. Capitalism literally kills.

    PBO is doing a competent job, but he needs to be more liberal.

    by jimgilliamv2 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:57:18 AM PST

  •  Gary Hart came out in support of what I've been (9+ / 0-)

    proposing for a while... an alternative to the NRA for responsible gun owners that doesn't oppose common sense regulations.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:57:52 AM PST

  •  I live in Kentucky and My husband owns (6+ / 0-)

    a concrete construction business and employees 6 guys including our son.  This is what happend last year while they were working at a condo complex pouring new concrete in the roadway of the complex in Wilder, Ky.

    They call the guy Columbine when they tell the story.  They were working in the road, and this guy drives by real fast and my husband yells for him to slow down.  The guy leaves the complex and a little while later comes back and zooms past them again.  Again my husband yells for him to slow down. The kid was about 19-22 years of age, dyed black hair and dressed in Goth attire.

    The guy comes back with a loaded M16 and says, "You want to tell me to slow down now?"  My son called 911 pronto and 5 cop cars showed up rather quickly.  They did arrest the guy and took the weapon.  My son was clearly shaken for an hour or so after the incident.

    A couple of months later my husband receives a letter that they plead down to misdemeanor.  Now that guy can go down the street and just buy another M16.

    "Laura Ingraham and the other narcissistic Fox hosts want to tell you that you’re only allowed to talk about issues when and where they decide, to their advantage. " Jon Stewart (Their outrage to Bob Costas)

    by Paddy999 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:59:30 AM PST

  •  Dear Joe Scarborough......How screwed up is your (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    party?.......We'll find out when they vote on 'Plan B' today.

    •  I can't wait (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      One Opinion

      for all these Republicans to vote for a tax increase.

      Even though House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) vowed Wednesday that his plan to raise taxes on upper-income Americans will pass, he was seen doing something later in the day that he rarely does: Glad-handing colleagues on the House floor. Though his conversations were inaudible to reporters in the House gallery, Boehner's body language said it all: He was eagerly seeking out wavering colleagues that might not join him tomorrow in voting for the plan

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:14:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder how many of the people who insist they (5+ / 0-)

    need these types of guns for protection really mean they need them to repel the swarm of invaders coming to get their gold and seeds during the imminent collapse of society?  Because it seems to me there has been an alignment of the survivalists and those gun enthusiasts that doesn't really include real sportsmen or hunters.  Sadly those two interests met in the Sandy Hook case. The fanatics I know whose fanaticism about guns is strong all seem to believe that they need them for the upcoming "times of troubles". It seems that one thing that we should do is to stop tolerating the fearmongering of Glen Beck and his fellow secessionists.  There is no need for those types of weapons unless you believe in a very bleak future. The problem is that for some of those people, once they have their guns and their seed kits they get impatient to begin. I guess what I'm wondering is when did we start acting like that kind of behavior--gun hoarding, gold collecting seed starting survivalism, was normal?  Wasn't there a time when neighbors wouldn't have said the mother was a very nice, normal woman who also happened to be a "prepper"?  And if we accept survivalism as normal behavior then don't we accept those kinds of guns as normal as well?

    "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

    by stellaluna on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:02:58 AM PST

    •  I've never accepted survivalism as normal. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stellaluna, skohayes

      It just isn't.
      And the prepping mentality helps move the prophecy toward fulfillment.

      I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

      by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:07:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  many preppers are just people who keep extra food (7+ / 0-)

        and water for natural disasters. CDC and FEMA agree it's a good idea.

        Don't confuse preppers with survivalists.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:24:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're right. Thanks. (0+ / 0-)

          I wasn't thinking of the precise definition of the terms.

          I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

          by Gentle Giant on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:37:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  the "Prepper" website I went to (because I had (0+ / 0-)

          never heard the term) seemed to be more along the lines of what I would call "survivalist". That is, more geared toward a long term, societal changing event where people would be in competition with others for limited resources and would not be able to eat or clothe themselves beyond their own capacity to do so.  I agree that being prepared for likely but sporadic events is a smart thing. Fashioning an entire lifestyle around prepping doesn't seem healthy to me. Though honestly, it seemed like another way for snake-oil salesmen to make money playing off of the fears of others.  And the fetishization of guns among that crowd is frightening.  I know some of them here in the South but they don't call themselves "peppers".  I do know that their obsession with "the end" is frightening in its intensity. And it's naïveté. But that is another comment. I do think this culture will be a huge impediment to meaningful gun control as "the Government" coming to take their guns is always part of "the end" scenario.

          "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

          by stellaluna on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:59:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  here's a different scenario (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:


            These are preppers who keep their eye on flu because of pandemics.  I know them well, I started the site.

            They are preppers not gun nuts. The discussions generally are around how much is enough food and water?

            Having lost power for 8 days x 2 last year (Irene, snowmageddon), and 4 days this year (Sandy) I am sympathetic.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:11:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Especially now (0+ / 0-)

      with the Mayan apocalypse scheduled tomorrow.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:20:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think that's it (0+ / 0-)

      They just think there are gangs of Mexican drug lords around every corner, and the cops aren't going to come if they call.

      And they think they're crack shots, immortal, and braver than any navy seal.

      I don't care if they think those things, I just don't want them armed with high powered guns if they do.

  •  Gun Culture (9+ / 0-)

    Free Image Hosting at
    Clay Bennett, Chattanooga Times Free Press

    Free Image Hosting at
    Phil Hands, Wisconsin State Journal

    Free Image Hosting at
    Tim Eagan, The Press Democrat

  •  divestiture: an idea (7+ / 0-)

    that avoids endless gun debates.  Move your money.  

    Charles Pierce raised this point a couple of days ago.  A few hours later, Cerberus Capital announced its sale of Freedom Group (Remington®, Bushmaster®, etc®)

    This was prompted by the California state pension funds announcement that they would divest all investments in firearms manufacturers.

    Yesterday, a second Perce column:

    The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of schoolchildren.

    by ygdrasl on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:05:20 AM PST

    •  Problem with that is (0+ / 0-)

      that every time a Democrat is elected president or a massacre like this happens, these kinds of guns fly off the shelves. Some people think they'll be outlawed, some people take the efficacy of the guns as a testimonial. I suppose there really is no such thing as bad PR.

      •  he was suggesting something like (0+ / 0-)

        the boycott of South Africa over apartheid- many aspects, and it took a while.  

        Guns and ammo may be flying off the shelves, but the stocks are down over the past week.

        The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of schoolchildren.

        by ygdrasl on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:54:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  In another diary (5+ / 0-)

    here by political junquie who followed up on a brilliant suggestion byNada Lemming

    Propose a liability insurance requirement for ownership?   It would have a limiting affect without violating the constitution.

    "Say little, do much" (Pirkei Avot 1:15)

    by hester on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:05:27 AM PST

  •  Run for guns in Idaho (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but we always have a run on gun sales. Less than one week later and the whole "they are coming for our guns" mentality is seeping back in & I will be surprised if any control measures pass Congress. Ever. How folks can turn off the deep sorrow and immediately become defensive about assault weapons is beyond me.

    I'm pretty tired of being told what I care about.

    by hulibow on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:08:21 AM PST

  •  Yeah, it's Florida - "America's Mentor": (6+ / 0-)

    Man shot at St. Pete pizza joint had been complaining about slow service

    Not kidding.

    ST. PETERSBURG — Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law has been cited in hundreds of cases. People have used it to justify shooting, stabbing, killing and maiming would-be intruders, romantic competitors and rival gang members.

    And on Sunday, at a pizza joint in St. Petersburg, a man tried to use it as justification for shooting another customer who was yelling at workers because he wasn't getting his order fast enough.

    Republicans did to Michigan what Apple did to iTunes.

    by here4tehbeer on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:08:31 AM PST

  •  Has anyone noticed that Ms. Lanza owned (9+ / 0-)

    at least four guns and they did not protect her from her own son.

    So I see only tatters of clearness through a pervading obscurity - Annie Dillard -6.88, -5.33

    by illinifan17 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:10:22 AM PST

    •  IMHO that's an effective retort to people who (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes, LilithGardener

      go on and on about how innocent gun owners/enthusiasts shouldn't be punished with increased gun control legislation just because every now and then some whackjob goes off and kills a bunch of people.

      Simply point out that, a week ago, Ms. Lanza could have written the exact same comment.

  •  The local news was at my Safeway (6+ / 0-)

    day before yesterday; the Safeway where Gabby Giffords and 18 others were shot.  Places take on a life of their own after events like this.
    I hope you and Newtown neighbors can find some peace from the media circus that follows these terrible shootings.
    And I hope my representative, Ron Barber, who was also shot at the Safeway, will be a strong voice for common sense regulations regarding guns.  So far, he seems a little tepid on the issue, treading lightly, because Arizonans love them some guns.

    Research Shows Poverty Creates the Biggest Achievement Gap.

    by Desert Rose on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:11:33 AM PST

  •  Defeat the NRA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Nothing has changed in our political discourse since the shooting. Politicians and lawmakers are still beholden to the gun lobby and its stash of campaign cash. In fact, we have heard even more disturbing and extreme responses from pro-gun nuts in the wake of Newtown, suggesting all sorts of insane theories to back up their deadly obsession with assault weapons. The only hope for saving kids like those in Connecticut rests with the people of America. We have changed. We see the need for common sense regulations in this country. We know madmen able to buy military guns and 100-round ammo clips at Walmart cannot be tolerated.  -  progressive

  •  It's a crazy country when you can't by too much... (11+ / 0-)

    ...pseudophed without authorities getting suspicious of your intentions, but you can accumulate an arsenal of rapid-firing, large caliber firearms.  

    What makes this even more insane is that our lawmakers, the "responsible" leadership of this nation, rush to protect us from ourselves when it comes to taking drugs--even painkillers when we are in terminal excruciating pain, but they determinedly and cowardly refuse to address the consequences of gun policies that allow sickeningly routine mass murders.  


  •  I love it how (4+ / 0-)

    assholes like Joe Lieberman, our outgoing senator, propose banning fake guns in video games but don't ever consider banning the REAL guns that you know actually kill real people and not people in some video game.

    This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

    by DisNoir36 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:23:48 AM PST

  •  A normalization of the sound of gunfire in (0+ / 0-)

    residential neighborhoods? Does it reflect a break down in law and order? (The sound of gunfire in a city neighborhood certainly reflects a breakdown in law and order).

    A question I haven’t seen addressed is whether anyone in that quiet residential neighborhood reported hearing 4 gunshots early that Friday morning? Or did Adam have some kind of silencer on the gun when he killed his mother?

    My thinking is still evolving on a question about the unlicensed target practice in and around Newtown and whether the sound of gunfire was “normalized” in property that was zoned residential.

    A local gun range had been destroyed in a fire 2 years ago. There was more demand than local capacity for shooting legally.

    NY Times reports long waiting lists to join licensed shooting ranges, as one reason for the illegal shooting ranges,

    According to the NYTimes article, hearing gunshots in the morning was only a little bit out of the ordinary, in Newtown. Could it be that someone heard pop, pop, pop, pop that morning and didn't even think to call the police?

    It seems too easy to distance ourselves from the pain, by blaming Nancy Lanza as an irresponsible gun owner, who kept weapons in her home, which she shared with her son, who turned out to be capable of premeditated murder. I'm sure she thought she was taking reasonable precautions to minimize her risks.

    IF lawful gun owners did not stand up against things like private target practice at unlicensed ranges, or if the police wrote citations and then looked the other way, and if the town could not pass reasonable ordinances that prohibited firearms discharge in residential areas, then they (collectively, gun owners and those who didn't own guns, along with law enforcement) may have effectively normalized the sound of gunfire in a residential neighborhood (where it doesn't belong).

    Would that be a tragedy or is that a scandal? Rhetorical question – it’s both - but to people with a growing frustration and fear of gun violence it just adds to the "randomness" aspect of the perceived danger.

    IMHO, the sound of gunfire in residential areas of Newtown reflects a breakdown in law and order, long before the massacre, as much as the sound of gunfire in any city neighborhood reflects a breakdown of law and order.

    Before anybody flames me, please read the NYTimes link above.

    This comment is a synthesis of parts of two comments I posted yesterday – about one of the central questions that I haven’t seen addressed.

    Prior comments in thread, with discussion:

    •  That neighborhood has houses pretty far apart (0+ / 0-)

      And the shots might not have sounded like much of anything.

      Assuming the sound even carried that far. It might not have. And assuming that if anybody did hear something, they recognized what it was.

  •  What's next for the NRA and its sicko membership, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    a nursery school?

  •  Boehner's Plan B (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    One Opinion

    would raise taxes on the poor and give a tax break to half of the 1%:

    The working poor, on average, would see taxes go up between $1,000 and $1,500 dollars. Barely anyone making over $100,000 would see a tax increase, and as a percentage of income, middle and upper middle class people making between $40,000 and $100,000 a year would see taxes go up less. But low income families earning $10,000 to $30,000 a year really take a beating under Boehner’s plan. Of course, if we do nothing, then the 2001 provisions expire as well and poor families are really in for a bruising.

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:28:49 AM PST

  •  Dueling Banjos (2+ / 0-)

    Norquist says yes:

    The powerful anti-tax advocacy group Americans for Tax Reform said Wednesday that it would not consider a vote for House Speaker John Boehner’s “Plan B”  a violation of the Taxpayer Protection Pledge many Republican members of Congress have signed.

    Republicans supporting this bill are this week affirming to their constituents in writing that this bill—the sole purpose of which is to prevent tax increases—is consistent with the pledge they made to them,” ATR said in a statement.  “In ATR’s analysis, it is extremely difficult—if not impossible—to fault these Republicans’ assertion.”

    Club for Growth says NO:

    The anti-tax group Club for Growth is warning lawmakers not to vote for House Speaker John A. Boehner’s proposal to raise taxes on Americans making more than $1 million annually, because the bill is “a bargaining tactic.”

    “The bill is anti-growth,” the group’s vice president of government affairs, Andy Roth, wrote in a letter sent to Capitol Hill Wednesday, adding that the group will score how lawmakers vote on the bill.

    Boehner’s proposal “increases tax rates for those making over $1 million while also raising taxes on capital gains and dividends. We don’t buy into the Washington-speak, suggesting that these are actually tax cuts. Also, it’s no secret that this bill is not a final product, but a bargaining tactic to make a larger deal even worse. As such, we cannot support it just on substance, but also the procedure which dictates its consideration. Therefore, we are urging all members to oppose the rule,” Roth wrote.

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:34:50 AM PST

  •  Re: Ezra - a major quibble (0+ / 0-)

    The opponents of gun control don't want nor are working towards the status quo.  Since the Colorado theatre shooting, they have continued to work behind the scenes with ALEC and other groups to lessen gun control.  So their politicization of the issue is far more nefarious than a desire to keep the status quo.

  •  What you said, Greg (4+ / 0-)
    There's a fiscal cliff, too. I'll get back to it when folks are finished posturing.
    Many condolences to you and others in Newtown.

    I grew up not too far from there and know what those little towns are like. Can't imagine having had to go through this then, though.

    The truth is rarely pure and never simple. -- Oscar Wilde

    by Mnemosyne on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:18:26 AM PST

  •  I just joined the NRA (0+ / 0-)

    Something I have never considered doing before. But with journalist such as Maureen McDermott Gill posting woefully inaccurate information, I believe they are the only option I have left to help defend my 2nd amendment rights.

    The arguments that Ms Gill postulates leads me to believe that she has never so much as touched a firearm.  It is the same with many others on here that think that banning firearms is the solution to violent acts.  There is no way to know what the perpetrator was thinking prior to or during this heinous act. We can only speculate. His weapon of choice was a semi-automatic firearm, it could have just as easily been a  shotgun, a club, knife, sword, a molotov cocktail or some explosive device.  The results would have been much the same or perhaps even more atrocious.

    One thing that needs to be asked is: How was he able to access those classrooms so easily?  Schools should have a secure area for the general public to access and the rest of the building secured so that only authorized personnel are allowed.

    According to Ms Gill "the Bushmaster, Glock and Sig Sauer are military and police weapons " - The same could be said for Ford, Chevy and Dodge sports cars. They are used by the police as well.  Why do we allow sports cars on the road? They are not practical and are designed to do one thing - go fast. Everyone who drives them is only interested in breaking the speed limit laws.  Shouldn't the public be content with a mid-sized sedan or truck?

    The arguments between sports cars and gun control are fundamentally the same.

    •  the perp shot his way through a locked door (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Blew it open with his Bushmaster.

      that's the answer to your question.

      Your 2nd amendment rights need to be respected but not at the price of 20 dead children.

      What are you afraid of?

      The results would have been the same with a knife? get real.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:57:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the door should have been stronger! (0+ / 0-)

        Did you see this ?

        22 children stabbed "outside" of a school and if you read the article, that was not the first incident of its type.

        As far as being afraid, I am afraid of misinformed people making hasty reactionary judgments and  pushing for our government to ban something that was guaranteed by the founders of this country. The politicians will go along with whichever side either makes the most noise or has the most money or both.  This is how we ended up with the TSA who mandated that fingernail clippers were a weapon that terrorists could use to hijack a plane.

        How will any type of "law" prevent this from happening?  It hasn't worked on the drug trade yet.  It certainly didn't prevent the Columbine shooting which happened during the previous assault weapon ban.

        As I stated previously, this was a horrible, senseless and hideous act of violence. If we are to base laws in this country over sheer numbers of killings, why isn't everyone alarmed at the 98,000 people who are killed each year by preventable medical errors or the estimated 80,000 deaths caused each year by alcohol.

        •  assault weapons were not envisioned by the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lost and Found

          founders. They have no purpose in civilian life. Assault weapons and high capacity magazines should, and will, be banned. By doing so, less deaths (not prevention of all deaths) are more likely without impacting hunters and gun owners, most of whom agree with the ban:

          Sixty-three percent of Americans support banning assault rifles, only 32 oppose. That includes a majority of conservatives and gun owners. But of course, the NRA is opposed.

          Sixty-four percent of Americans support banning magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, including a majority of conservatives and gun owners. Too bad the NRA opposes that too.

          I live in Newtown, CT.

          There must be sensible policy that involves and includes gun owners. Your suggestions are not that.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:51:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  and the alcohol and medical errors stats (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lost and Found

          are a dodge to avoid gun policy. Won't work. You want to address that, start a blog.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 04:52:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  stay warm tonight Greg (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Greg Dworkin

      its really getting cold.  here is a recipe to help out:

      4 cups  Whole milk
      1 cup   Valrhona Le Noir 61% or Le Noir 68% or Caraibe 66%
      1 Tbsp   Cocoa Powder

      Bring the milk to a boil.
      Pour hot liquid slowly to the cocoa powder into a bowl and whisk vigorously until theres no more lumps.
      Melt the chocolate in a bowl. (How to temper Chocolate)
      Pour 1/3 of the liquid onto the melted chocolate. Mix so as to obtain a smooth, elastic and shiny texture then pour the rest of the liquid while making sure to preserve this texture, and strain into a pan.
       Heat the chocolate mixture just to a boil, whipping vigorously to obtain a light and creamy forth.

      all the best to you and yours. love & solace.

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