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NY post and Daily news headlines castigating NRA as loons

Public opinion via Newseum

The New York Times is tired of the bizarro logic driving gun legislation over the last two decades.

Over the years, states have made it increasingly possible for almost any adult to carry a concealed handgun in public, including on college campuses, in churches and in state parks — places where people tend to congregate in large numbers and where, in a rational world, guns should be strictly prohibited.

...

Whatever the reason, the regulatory landscape has changed enormously in the last few decades. In 1981, 19 states prohibited individuals from carrying a concealed gun in public, and 28 states plus the District of Columbia gave law enforcement agencies discretion to issue permits only to people who had a real need to carry a hidden gun. All but a few states took this cautious approach.

Nowadays, however, there are four states that require no permit at all to carry a gun, and 35 states have permissive “shall issue” or “right-to-carry” laws that effectively take the decision of who should carry a weapon out of law enforcement’s hands.

And since more is better, that's led to perfect harmony and safety. If you think the answer is "yes," read the rest of the editorial.

Maureen Dowd is also done with the wait, forget, repeat tactics in DC.

For decades, when the public has grown more sympathetic to gun control after an attempted assassination or a spike in gun murders or a harrowing school shooting, Wayne LaPierre and his fellow N.R.A. officials have hunkered down to wait for the “emotional period” or “hysteria,” as they call it, to pass.

They rule in the back rooms on Capitol Hill and rein in panicked senators and congressmen who fret that they should support some measly legislation to pretend they are not pawns of the gun lobby.

...

The press conference, where the press was not allowed to ask questions, played like an insane parody: a tightly wound lobbyist who earns a million or so a year by refusing to make the slightest concession on gun safety, despite repeated slaughters by deranged shooters with jaw-droppingly easy access to firearms.

See, Maureen, you talk about something other than lazy back-room gossip, and you get back on the front page.

Ross Douthat provides the defense. Such as it is.

For a week after the Newtown shooting, the conversation was dominated by the self-righteous certainties of the American center-left. In print and on the airwaves, the chorus was nearly universal: the only possible response to Adam Lanza’s rampage was an immediate crusade for gun control, the necessary firearm restrictions were all self-evident, and anyone who doubted their efficacy had the blood of children on his hands.

...

It’s an assumption that cries out to be challenged by a thoughtful center-right. ...

But instead of a kind of skepticism and sifting from conservatives, after a week of liberal self-righteousness the spotlight passed instead to ... Wayne LaPierre. And no Stephen Colbert parody of conservatism could match the National Rifle Association spokesman’s performance on Friday morning.

Buddy, when even Douthat can't cough up the standard line in praise of your right wing nuttery, you're in trouble. In fact, in the NRA statement, Douthat admits the true state of our politics more clearly than... maybe ever.
Unfortunately for our country, the Bloomberg versus LaPierre contrast is basically all of American politics today. Our society is divided between an ascendant center-left that’s far too confident in its own rigor and righteousness and a conservatism that’s marched into an ideological cul-de-sac and is currently battering its head against the wall.
So why do you spend most weeks rallying the head-butting?

Phillip Caputo says that before we look at the motivations behind gun violence, we might do well to look at the instruments, based on his experience investigating Patrick Purdy, the man behind the 1989 mass shooting at a Stockton, CA elementary school.

If you look into the backgrounds of mass murderers, you’ll find very few who gave signs that they were capable of a heinous crime. Many of them were “grievance killers” — the laid-off employee who is to all appearances normal, up to the moment he barges into the office with guns blazing.

...

Since the Newtown, Conn., massacre, there has been a good deal of vague chatter suggesting that people like Purdy or Lanza or Jared Loughner can be identified before they act on their monstrous fantasies and can be prohibited from purchasing firearms. A kind of early-warning radar will detect a disturbed personality on a trajectory toward slaughter.

How would this be accomplished? Are disgruntled workers, loners or anyone who says or does bizarre things going to be examined by psychiatric boards? If it’s determined that they are potential dangers to themselves or others, would they be placed on some sort of national watch list? Compelled to undergo treatment? Locked up?

Even if such a system had been in place, it would not have stopped Lanza, who, as we all know, obtained his weapons by stealing them from the collection of his gun-enthusiast mother.

Libertarians and gun-rights lobbyists say that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. That is, they assert that the problem isn’t the proliferation of ever more lethal weapons, the elimination or gutting of gun-control laws, the passage of concealed-carry regulations that exceed the ridiculous (in eight states, it is permissible to pack heat in a bar, something that was illegal even in Wild West towns like Dodge City). No, these advocates say, the problem is that the guns end up in the wrong hands.

Leonard Pitts is blunt.
Come, then. Let us weep for the 20 children shot to pieces by the young man who invaded their elementary school wielding semiautomatic weapons. Let us mourn for the six adults who could not save the children, could not save themselves, who died as the children died, shot multiple times at close range. Let us whisper our sorrows and shed our tears. Let us stagger against one another in our mountainous grief. Let us light our candles and leave them at makeshift shrines to be cared for by the uncaring sun and rain.

But let us also understand these as acts of moral masturbation, in that they satisfy some need, yet have no chance of producing anything of lasting consequence. Let us not pretend our sorrow in this moment means a damn thing or changes a damn thing, because it doesn’t and won’t. Not until or unless the American nation is finally willing to confront its unholy gun love.

Dana Millbank looks as the fine week the Republicans had in the House, and even then...
As Thursday night’s vote approached, Republican leaders, realizing they didn’t have the votes, shut down the chamber, canceled plans to be in session Friday and sent members home until after Christmas. In a private meeting, Boehner bid them good riddance with a prayer: “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.”

A beaten Boehner stood before the cameras Friday morning to give a postmortem. “It’s not the outcome that I wanted,” he said, but “that was the will of the House.”

...

Thursday night’s rebellion, by shifting responsibility to the White House and the Senate, actually increases the likelihood of tax hikes, but the rampaging Republicans weren’t contrite on Friday morning. “The speaker has been talking about tax increases — that’s all he’s been talking about,” Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-Kan.) said on MSNBC. “That’s been the frustration.”

As if to demonstrate just how unreasonable he could be, Huelskamp added a gratuitous opinion that those seeking stricter gun control after the Newtown shooting are “politicizing the issue.”

... finds that no matter where you start, you can't get away from how badly the right has played gun issues in the wake of Sandy Hook.

Chris Cillizza does manage to stay on topic, but doesn't exactly surprise anyone with his "worst week in Washington"

When you make a public threat, you’d better be able to back it up.

John Boehner learned that lesson the hardest way possible this past week.  ...

As the vote went down before it even came up, one message came through loud and clear: Boehner doesn’t have control of his conference. Politically speaking, that’s a tough reality to recover from.

Thomas Friedman makes a rare appearance on this page.
The political obsessions of the Republican base — from denying global warming to defending assault weapons to opposing any tax increases under any conditions, to resisting any immigration reform — are making it impossible to be a Republican moderate, said Carville. And without more Republican moderates, there is no way to strike the kind of centrist bargains that have been at the heart of American progress — that got us where we are and are essential for where we need to go.

Republican politicians today have a choice: either change your base by educating and leading G.O.P. voters back to the center-right from the far right, or start a new party that is more inclusive, focused on smaller but smarter government and market-based, fact-based solutions to our biggest problems.

In other words, even the most deeply embedded inside the beltway pundits are having an increasingly hard time pretending that the current Republican Party is anything other than a gathering of kooks. Won't someone at least provide a little cover?

New Scientist looks at stem cells that aren't exactly embryonic. In fact, they're kind of the opposite.

Dead bodies can provide organs for transplants, now they might become a source of stem cells too. Huge numbers of stem cells can still be mined from bone marrow five days after death to be potentially used in a variety of life-saving treatments.

Originally posted to Devil's Tower on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:33 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sorry, folks (26+ / 0-)

    Somehow I managed to fumble the publishing queue this morning, pumping out my 8AM CST article at 6AM CST and generally screwing up the stack.

    So I'll leave this floating over here a bit, then promote it to the FP, then possibly do a little bump on the other piece at 8CST.

    And then I shall await the great fly-swatter from above for all this sloppiness.

  •  When they went into Purdy's hotel room (7+ / 0-)

    they found everywhere, everywhere: plastic army men.
    Seriously.
    I remember reading there was one in the fridge guarding the bologna.
    I was at Cleveland School that day, by the way. The first news came over the phone at the beauty shop where my mother was a hairdresser. There was a stylist there who had a child at that school. She'd been dropped off that morning; her car was in the shop.
    I took her to the school.....or, more correctly, to the church next to it. I remember asking a Stockton cop on the perimeter, "You get that son of a bitch yet?"
    The cop said, "No, he got himself."
    Triage teams were still packing up on the front lawn of the school. The torched hulk of Purdy's car was still sitting next to the curb.

  •  Friedman has no 6 month solution? (10+ / 0-)

    That IS a surprise.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:59:26 AM PST

  •  Do I remember correctly, that doctors have been... (11+ / 0-)

    disallowed from asking if there is a gun in a household with children in it?

    The thought occurs to me this morning that, rather than trying to criminalize mental healthcare, we reconsider this prohibition and let doctors recommend or at least supply info on locks and safes and safe handling procedures.  Include mental health professionals in this practice, to add awareness and best-practice to households with both firearms and persons who are in any way at risk of emotional or hormonal instability.  If necessary, allow health care professionals to recommend to law enforcement situations that can be legally deemed a danger to public safety.

    It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

    by Murphoney on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:04:03 AM PST

  •  I've said it elsewhere: Today is David Gregory's (16+ / 0-)

    moment to restore his credibility as a journalist, and take apart LaPierre's stance, as he interviews him on MTP.

    Allowing LaPierre to rant & carry on, without being seriously challenged, will diminish any reason to even having LaPierre on in the first place.

  •  Theme of the week: a right wing gone extreme (8+ / 0-)

    The past week really shows it as Friedman states it here:

    The political obsessions of the Republican base — from denying global warming to defending assault weapons to opposing any tax increases under any conditions, to resisting any immigration reform — are making it impossible to be a Republican moderate, said Carville. (...snip)
    Republican politicians today have a choice: either change your base by educating and leading G.O.P. voters back to the center-right from the far right, or start a new party that is more inclusive, focused on smaller but smarter government and market-based, fact-based solutions to our biggest problems.
    And it looks like the GOP will not be making either of those choices, not yet anyway.  Forecast calls for more rounds of defeat and head-butting in their own ideological cul de sac.  
    •  Do not expect the current GOP to even pass that (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skohayes, Torta, sawgrass727, Amber6541

      smaller stop-gap fiscal cliff measure that Obama put back out on Friday---protecting the 98%.....won't happen; because of the 2%....

      We must remember all this in 2014...

    •  GOP: Our problem is our messaging......yep.....so (7+ / 0-)

      was the Whigs.

    •  Michael Tomasky wrote a similar column (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skillet, Torta, sawgrass727, Hillbilly Dem
      And it’s on process far, far more than on policy that the Republican Party has gone nutso. You know this story, too, so I needn’t rehearse the details, except to describe the current end point, which is that to the GOP today, the Democrats must be denied any victory by any means necessary. The Republicans unwilling to vote for Plan B weren’t in the main loathe to give Boehner a win. The problem was that that particular Boehner win might have led to an Obama win. That was the issue that drove them.

      In that sense, all these people saying they learned no lesson from the election are completely wrong. They learned a lesson, all right, but the lesson they took away is just the opposite of the kind of lesson normal small-d democrats would learn. Normal small-d democrats would learn that you’ve lost twice now, and while you should still stick to your principles of course, it was also time to play a little ball. But these Republicans learned that they have to be even more obstructionist. Their ideas are unpopular, their America is dying. But by God, they’re standing until the last man! They’re Paulus’s soldiers at Stalingrad, surrounded by an enemy that embodies evil—and is fated to outlast them. This is how they’ve been trained to think.

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/...

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:28:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama was never legitimate...and never will be. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Egalitare, Hillbilly Dem, skohayes
      •  I'd like Obama to make statement on not shoving (7+ / 0-)

        dried pinto beans down deep into one's ears.  It's a vital issue and it's high time we hear from President Obama on it.

        Then see how many Republicans have to make a trip to the doctor or the ER, in the following week.

      •  Since the columnist invoked Paulus (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skohayes

        I guess it would be instructive if the GOP were to realize Paulus army at one time numbered 600,000 men, which was some 200,00 at the time the encirclement began with some 100,000 surrendering and 8000 or so eventually being repatriated to Germany  (numbers are from memory)

        •  Hitler forbade Paulus giving ground, declared the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          llywrch, glorificus, skohayes

          city a "fortress" to be held at all costs with the result roughly as you note. Here we have a kind of Norquist/LaPierre directive to hold at all costs that we may hope will have a similar long term result on the TP/GOP army ravaging the nation.

          Of course one little problem is that, being a political "battle" instead of a real one, we likely have to wait two more years. According to BBC Home, On This Day 2 February, that battle also had this lesson:

          The Soviet government never released accurate figures. A conservative estimate is that at least 500,000 Red Army soldiers died in the fighting.

          Civilian casualties are thought to have been even higher.

          The population of Stalingrad - now Volgograd - fell from 850,000 to just 1,500 at the end of the war.

          We "the people" are the civilians in this idiocy. Lots of us are likely to suffer privation from job loss, loss of unemployment insurance and so on before this little ideological army of nutters is soundly crushed.

          The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

          by pelagicray on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:44:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think the total Soviet toll in troops and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes

            civilians was 1M or some better.  Stalin ordered his troops not to retreat either, with rear ranks instructed to shoot any front ranks who ran.  The tank factory was a hot spot with tanks rolling off the production line even as Germans took positions in the factory and were driven back time and time again.  Despite fighting in its walls (it is still standing or was a few years ago, with the shell holes still evident in its walls), the production of tanks never ceased

            •  Notice a similarity? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              salamanderempress, skohayes
              Stalin ordered his troops not to retreat either
              A common denominator with the rump TP component of the TP/GOP that got the Speaker?

              It fits the ideologue "unreality" pattern in which good sense, tactical or strategic retreats that could save a situation are discounted for the hot poker up the ass of "NO RETREAT! Stand and die" of absolutists and dictators.

              There is a point at which retreat, or compromise, is simply defeat and loss of all one counts worth while. A Democratic cave on the safety net would be such. Still, some here fall into the trap of "no retreat" as well and seem to abandon elections because some pet course isn't taken or gets less than full support.

              The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

              by pelagicray on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:23:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  GOP moderate? It is impossible to be a (2+ / 0-)

      GOP conservative as the wingers of today would reject Bob Dole or even St Ronnie

      •  Dole's "friends" in the Senate did just that (5+ / 0-)

        recently. Dole came to the Seante floor in a wheelchair to support passage of a treaty that urges all nations to (basically) get in line with the U.S. legislation re the disabled.
             Dole's Rethug ex-Senate colleagues smiled, praised him and then voted it down. You see, we would be letting the evil United Nations govern America if we did that. The John Birch Society is now running the show. Gawd.

        The Republican motto: "There's been a lot of progress in this country over the last 75 years, and we've been against all of it."

        by Hillbilly Dem on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:52:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  irony is treaty is based on our ADA (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wintergreen8694

          but wingers are convinced that signing the treaty will mean UN troops in our streets and Shariah law in our courts (I asked a winger recently if the UN had as many divisions as the Pope and was amazed when he got it right with his response "'bout the same number")

    •  Why SHOULD the GOP turn moderate? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Van Buren

        Obama already does everything they want him to do.

      "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

      by Buzzer on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:56:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  GOP Hostage Kabuki....Day 22.....still trying to (4+ / 0-)

    decide who's a hostage and who's not.

  •  APR (5+ / 0-)

    I think it's called Abbreviated Professional Opinion Spewers now.

    ;)

  •  the saturday after the newton massacre... (13+ / 0-)

    spotted two old men walking around the mall sporting hats which say ' N R A ' in big letters.  One was sitting in the middle of a busy cafe, by himself.   The other person was walking around, also by himself.  In both instances they were looking around.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out the NRA sent a mass email to 'be seen and be proud'.  More like tone deaf and egomaniacs.  

    When we got into office, the thing that surprised me most was to find that things were just as bad as we'd been saying they were. -JFK

    by optimusprime on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:30:44 AM PST

  •  I see you included MoDo. (13+ / 0-)

    She may have had something more important to talk about today other than her usual Mean Girls Style Notes, but even so, she couldn't resist bashing the President in her final paragraph:

    President Obama, who should have been alarmed that his re-election inspired a boom in gun sales, seems daunted at the prospect of taking on gun lovers, having handed the matter off to Joe Biden to study. The president seems to be setting the table for defeat. If only he had the visceral outrage of a Bloomberg. Who knows what could happen?
    The combative Biden, with a solid legislative background in violence and gun issues, is the perfect leader for this team.  Had the President himself taken the lead, he would only have opened the door for Dowd to lambaste his efforts.

    Sigh.

    “If we, citizens, do not support our artists, then we sacrifice our imagination on the altar of crude reality and we end up believing in nothing and having worthless dreams.” ~ Yann Martel

    by SottoVoce on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:33:10 AM PST

  •  Good morning and Happy Holidays (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skillet, Hillbilly Dem, belle1

    from Florida, warm tropical breezes (except it was 45 degrees this morning), and waving palm trees!
    The perfect place to spend Christmas!

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:39:08 AM PST

  •  the media continues to find new lows in reporting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eeff

    the Sandy Hook incident, one article referring to the shooter as "slithering down the halls" when he was in HS.

    For what it is worth, here is another consideration of Nancy Lanza:
    http://crooksandliars.com/...

    •  Susie is just wrong (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DRo, wintergreen8694

      The actual treatment of Nancy Lanza within Newtown is based on is uncertainty. In Friday's candlelight vigil in Newtown she was included. Her name was read along with 26 others.

      Sometimes the number of victims is 26 (it is nationally) sometimes 27 but never 28. Newtowners are grappling with it, but to describe it as blame is incomplete (some do, for not locking up the guns, not everyone does).

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:05:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Having trouble with this line. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wintergreen8694
        Well, she grew up on a New Hampshire farm. Guns are a big part of life in rural communities -- or so people tell me.
        Didn't she just start collecting guns within the past couple years?

        "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

        by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:08:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can't verify that (4+ / 0-)

          here's a comment from the parent of one of the kids:

          Robbie Parker, the father of one of the victims, spoke out within 24 hours of the shooting and said to Adam Lanza’s family, “I can’t imagine how hard this experience must be for you, and I want you to know that our family and our love and our support goes out to you as well.” His spirit of building community instead of reciprocating hatred presents humbling evidence of a bright heart. It also serves a pragmatic purpose.

          My experiences in Littleton suggest that those who saw the tragedy as embracing everyone, including the families of the killers, were able to move toward healing, while those who fought grief with anger tended to be more haunted by the events in the years that followed. Anger is a natural response, but trying to wreak vengeance by apportioning blame to others, including the killer’s family, is ultimately counterproductive. Those who make comprehension the precondition of acceptance destine themselves to unremitting misery.

          http://www.nytimes.com/...

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:24:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Here's a "should." (6+ / 0-)
      For these and other reasons, I will not use the word "should" regarding Nancy Lanza. I have no idea what she "should" have done. I wish everyone would put down the heavy weight of their judgment.
      You should not teach your emotionally disturbed son to shoot automatic weapons and then make said weapons easily available to him.

      Hope I'm not going out on a limb with that one.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:12:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Man....that C&L column is really poor. (4+ / 0-)

      I can't help but find things to pick apart, just on a cursory glance.

      It doesn't seem to have occurred to people that maybe she kept the guns because she was afraid of her kid. Mothers can't say things like that, so we'll never know.
      So, that's why she taught him to shoot? She was afraid of him?

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:16:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  and this part... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bush Bites, ConfusedSkyes, belle1
      And there's your nasty little underbelly of this scenic little New England town:
      is both insulting and insensitive.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:30:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  In Saturday's FL Sun Sentinel....the paper printed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hillbilly Dem, bontemps2012

    A lot of the Tweets they received following this so-called Don't Ask Us Questions NRA Press Conference on Friday.  My mother read me some of them yesterday.  They were scathing for the most part against the NRA.

  •  CHEERS to the NRA (7+ / 0-)

    DATELINE CHICAGO: DEcember 23, 2012
     a 15 year old boy accidentally shot himself in the head yesterday, playing with a gun he found at his mother's home. The NRA issued a statement that only had his mother been armed at the time, she could have shot the gun out of her son's hand, saving his life.

    DATELINE  TEXAS: November 15, 2012
    A man accidentally shot himself as well as three others, including an infant, when his gun accidentally discharged at a Walmart checkout line.

    DATELINE DES MOINES: September 19, 2012
    A three year old accidentally shot itself in the leg after someone left a loaded pistol there as collateral for a loan.

    DATELINE Nacogdoches: October 19, 2012
    A 8 month old was shot in the face while being held by his mother. Her boyfriend was trying to unload his pistol when it discharged hitting the infant and three others.

    DATELINE Padukah: April 30, 2012
    a 13 month old toddler was shot and killed when his 3 year old brother was playing with a loaded gun his father left on a table.

    DATELINE Indiana: July 17, 2012
    A 3 year old shot his father to death while playing with a loaded gun his dad left on the table. Dad had been previously warned about leaving loaded weapons within reach of his children.

    The NRA insists that in each case, more guns, with larger cailber ammo, would have prevented these accidents.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:50:22 AM PST

  •  I was surprised LaPerierre (8+ / 0-)

    did not propose a 21 gun salute for the Newtown children and teachers.

    ...and who, disguised as rambler american, mild mannered commenter for a great Democratic web blog, fights a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.

    by rambler american on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:51:02 AM PST

  •  The "liberals are oppressing the rights of gun (7+ / 0-)

    owners" is a well entrenched meme and it is the operating story that our politicians (even many Democrats) use, except in the aftermath of carnage.  The NYT editorial show how much easier/lax gun laws have become in contradiction with the much promulgated NRA PR campaign about gun laws oppressing responsible gun owners.

    Sadly, after the New Year most Americans will have forgotten about Newtown and politicians will again go back to their shameless SOP of allowing the NRA to get away with whatever they want.  Sure some of the outrage will carry (since a lot of people are becoming aware that our Country is fast becoming a place where the law of the land is arm yourself to the hilt and might is right) and it's even possible that Congress may pass an Assaults Weapon Ban - much watered down so that it does nothing and probably even written by the NRA.  Of course we will hear again about oppression of the responsible gun owners by the NRA and all the 2A absolutists.

    Since the NRA has so much power (their power over Congress may be huge, but it's nothing when compared to its growing power over state legislatures) we will see more carnage and it will happen more frequently.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:53:15 AM PST

    •  Yet they are fewer of us (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution
      A decreasing number of American gun owners own two-thirds of the nation's guns and as many as one-third of the guns on the planet -- even though they account for less than 1% of the world's population, according to a CNN analysis of gun ownership data.
      The data, collected by the Injury Prevention Journal, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the General Social Survey and population figures from the U.S. Census Bureau, found that the number of U.S. households with guns has declined, but current gun owners are gathering more guns.
       

      CNN piece
      This seems to suggest that the NRA is basically hyping current membership to purchase more weapons rather than facilitating even an anemic growth rate of weapon owners in this country. That is at the same time reassuring AND frightening.

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:29:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your note about the states applies nearly across (3+ / 0-)

      the board on where the right is concentrating.

      As it becomes evident they cannot win nationally in unrigged elections they are going to focus more and more on state and local politics where dollars go further and many "progressive" and "liberal" voters, particularly the young and minority, are just too busy to turn out. We have to change that dynamic by constantly educating our side that ultimately all politics is local.

      Wins on the national level can be sabotaged at the state level and, eventually, even reversed. Look no further than purple and even somewhat blue states are seeing with efforts to apportion electoral votes by Congressional District—gerrymandered districts cooked up in post 2010 legislatures—that if in effect in 2012 might have seen President Romney arriving next month.

      My adult kids get tired of hearing it, but do turn out most of the time. Each of us aware of the trend and need must become gentle pests for those we know on our side when these elections come due and in every political discussion in between.

      The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

      by pelagicray on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:58:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Terrific quote (The only foes that ...) that (0+ / 0-)

        captures what is going on in this country.

        Whether someone owns a gun is a more powerful predictor of a person’s political party than their gender, whether they identify as gay or lesbian, whether they are Hispanic, whether they live in the South or a number of other demographic characteristics.  And, the better educated you are, the less likely you are to own a gun.  AND, the more religious you are the more likely you are to own a gun!

    •  They'd rather die than go Australian. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wintergreen8694, mmacdDE

      The 800-pound gorilla, here, is that these attacks on groups of strangers are perpetrated by one small group of the mentally ill: paranoid schizophrenics.

      This is an organic disease. It afflicts 17 per 100,000. Total of 50,000 such individuals in the United States.

      Separating these individuals from guns is the core problem. Australia did it.

      Like this:

      White House petition: Adopt Australia's gun laws which have eliminated 100% of gun massacres since adoption in 1996 with no effect on hunting

      Australia inflicted a measure of inconvenience on its hunters and target shooters. Not a lot. And they zeroed in on the more dangerous mental illnesses -- depression, too, because of suicides.

      Aussie MP Kelvin Thomson offers the details of what they did on his blog.

      Results ??? The big attacks on strangers have disappeared from Australia. They've only had one gun attack (back in 2005) by a mad man -- he had to break in to a shooting range and break the gun vault to get his hands on weapons.

      Suicides and murders have fallen by a half and two-thirds.

      Australia ??? They'd rather die. Frankly I'd like to see the Republican Party die as a political party over this issue. Let them suck the NRA and die from the poison.

      "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:49:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  One of them actually admitted it. (3+ / 0-)
    ...... an ascendant center-left ....

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:56:21 AM PST

  •  Shocking to me at least (4+ / 0-)

    was the Twin Falls, Idaho Times-News front page yesterday, which was devoted to a single column regarding gun control and included a list of the folks killed in Connecticut.
    http://www.sfgate.com/...
    Yes, I said Idaho.

    I'm pretty tired of being told what I care about.

    by hulibow on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:57:01 AM PST

  •  Kansas is in training to be a Deep South state. (4+ / 0-)
    “The speaker has been talking about tax increases — that’s all he’s been talking about,” Rep. Tim Huelskamp (R-Kan.) said on MSNBC. “That’s been the frustration.”

    As if to demonstrate just how unreasonable he could be, Huelskamp added a gratuitous opinion that those seeking stricter gun control after the Newtown shooting are “politicizing the issue.”

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 05:59:51 AM PST

    •  Huelskamp is a new idiot to watch (4+ / 0-)

      I guess with West and Walsh leaving there are slots to fill as the loudest and dumbest members of the teabaggers and he's making a strong case to fill the hole left by their departures.

      That appearance on "Morning Joe" was very interesting to see. Scarborough was so disgusted with him that if they were in the same room, he might have gone off and punched him in the face.

    •  Huelskamp say "jack-booted government thugs" (0+ / 0-)

      at some point in his rant ??? Go off on a scream at ATF and the FBI ?

      Does he have LeRouche tattooed on his dick ?

      "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

      by bontemps2012 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:56:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Friedman still crying out for a third way. (8+ / 0-)

    Which, basically, is a government that won't be evil but will still protect his wife's tax dodges.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:03:17 AM PST

  •  Uh Oh...LaPierre speaking for the Merician pipples (0+ / 0-)

    again.

  •  I expect Homeland to have chase scenes... (0+ / 0-)

    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / Netroots Radio podcasts of The After Show with Wink & Justice can be found on Stitcher

    by justiceputnam on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:12:29 AM PST

  •  Re: the Tom Friedman quote (0+ / 0-)

    Friedman and the rest of the mouthpiece class are starting to realize that the Tea Horde is an existential threat to all intellectual influences, even conservative ones.

  •  A Once Near Civil Society and also Once U.S. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hillbilly Dem, wintergreen8694

    Gun sales once again skyrocketing, one gun shop owner very recently said reasons were 1} Christmas 2} Obama got re-elected 3} School shooting, in that order. Now State legislators, still dodging what they've run on the past couple of cycles and people actually hired them, jobs and the economy, find another dangerous distraction, like the already many, showing their mentality and it's state of!!!

    Gun dealers see sales surge with prospect of new restrictions on ownership
    After school shooting, some states move to ease gun rules
    After the Connecticut shooting, some state legislators aim to let school staff members come to work armed.

    These are the LaPierre 'good gun owners' in this once civil country, or seeking to be, should Really Worry About as their mental disorders grow from just once individual quirks into even deeper group think paranoia and more!!

    Vets On FLOTUS and SLOTUS, "Best - Ever": "We haven't had this kind of visibility from the White House—ever." Joyce Raezer - Dec. 30, 2011

    by jimstaro on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:19:41 AM PST

    •  Note that there are very few "new" owners (3+ / 0-)

      Current gun owners are buying more. The number of what LaPierrre calls "good gun owners" is shrinking relative to the overall population.

      I get it that sports enthusiasts have multiple weapons. I've only hunted a couple of times, but I know enough that you can't use the same "toolbox" for deer hunting as you do for water fowl, and that different genres of target shooting involved different "tools." I understand the collectors as well, and we can easily accommodate ALL the needs and virtually all of the desires of those subsets of multiple gun owners.

      I am much less sympathetic to my fellow citizens who want to "stock up for the coming troubled times."  Yet those are probably the bulk of the "market growth" in weapon sales.

      It's a problem we must eventually come to grips with.

       

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:02:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the excellent roundup, Mark! (4+ / 0-)

    Ross talking sense for a change?  I douthat.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:19:58 AM PST

  •  Occupy the NRA? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CwV, wintergreen8694

    Occupy changed an entire nation's attitude toward the 1 percent and the public welfare we give them.

    Now we need a parallel movement to destroy the NRA. Realize, it is NOT an organization of hunters and sportsman. It's a front group for very rich gun dealers, interlinked with the other very rich, taking advantage of "good ole'" folks who again vote against their own self interest.

    Yes, we need better gun control laws and more open access to health care, and some general disdain for the violence in the media. But will really change this country is if a new organization of hunters and sportspersons arises that has a sensible and socially responsible mission, and a million gun owners resign from the NRA to form an entirely new organization.

    •  You go first. (0+ / 0-)

      (sorry, couldn't resist)

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:58:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, they don't have my money (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe 30 years ago I worked on hunter safety with them. But since then it is very obvious that they haven't represented anything that I thought was valid.

        An interesting study in extinct ideas is the very ancient emphasis on environmental issues that the NRA used to have--when they actually listened to hunters.

        •  If the NRA... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mmacdDE

          ...would have adhered to its original purposed when it was founded, we would be better off. Its purpose was to teach gun safety and marksmanship. That is simply a front now. It is now a PAC that uses trumped up 2nd Amendment fears to steer its membership into voting for candidates that support the far right wing agenda; NRA, Tea Party, Religious Right, Grover Norquist, Koch brothers, Carl Rove, Heritage Foundation, etc., they're all the same animal.
          Just as with the last election, your vote is more powerful than their money, and in the case of the NRA, their guns.

          I knew she was the gal for me as soon as she laid her eyes on me. Right on me shoulder, she did. Popped the buggers right out her head, and laid em on me shoulder. She's a sweet heart, that gal.

          by glb3 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:16:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  A better model would be MADD (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wintergreen8694, mmacdDE

      Occupy, as an organizational model is a mess. It completely ignores the most effective channels for making change and relies on media stunts to get it's message across. It worked in a limited sense but did not and cannot achieve the broad reforms they seek.
      MADD focused on a single issue and did a decade worth of organizing and PR work that built a single issue pressure group that got legislation written all over the country. On the way, they raised the issue of drunk driving nationally, pumping up the Conventional Wisdom Machine and that made moving legilation, state by state, much easier.

      If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

      by CwV on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:05:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  *phshaw* liberal media (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo, wintergreen8694

    Liberal Socialist NY Post and Daily News. ;-)

    So what if Rupert Murdoch owns the NY Post, Murdoch calls for Australian-type gun-control, so he must be a Socialist, too.

    </snark>

  •  Wow, Leonard Pitts! (0+ / 0-)

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 06:57:37 AM PST

  •  Leonard Pitts: (0+ / 0-)

    Along with a change in the gun laws, America needs a change in gun attitudes.
    I remember seeing a demonstration by Tenshishiro Obata, (he played the heavy in the Mutant Ninja Turtles and is an accomplished martial artist).
    He did a demonstration with the live sword and did "test-cutting" on bundles of bamboo. He talked about the training his students went through. A long period with non-lethal wood and then metal swords.
    Then a long period of training in just unsheathing the sword one inch. He said that cuts to the webbing between the thumb and index finger on the left hand were common among careless practitioners.
    Then drawing the sword slowly. If the sword is not drawn out properly, it can split the lightly glued halves of the scabbard and cut the student.
    The next level of care had to be to not cut the inside of the left armpit or arm .
    He said care had to be taken not to cut one's own ear off, or the scalp.
    Then one had to assiduously take care not to cut the knee or one's toes.
    Finally,  the kata movement that students learned was designed such that one never cut into an area of which they were certain another student was standing. In turning cuts, they would move such that they vacated the  space and then cut into it.
    He stressed in most emphatic terms the level of seriousness, "shin-ken" or "mind-sword", "sword-mind" that all students must maintain. The level of self-discipline that had been developed over centuries of careless people injuring themselves or others. Within that culture, the highest ideal of swordsmanship and warrior ethic is symbolized by the "sword that remains sheathed", and this is borne out by a millenia of literature on the subject.
    I'm not familiar with professional trainers at gun ranges, but I'm pretty sure a similar mindfulness is demanded by all competent teachers and practitioners.
    However, that is just whistling in a hurricane of irresponsibility in society at large, judging by the statistics and newspaper accounts.
    It was rough enough on Andy of Mayberry when Barney pulled out his pistol. Today in America it's like Otis and Ernest T. Bass and everyone they represent are out running around with AR-15's.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:01:13 AM PST

  •  Just say no...to the NRA (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    6ZONite, wintergreen8694

    The NRA has lost whatever shred of credibility it had in the wake of their outrageous media appearances. These cowards, all shills fro gun manufacturers, blame everyone and everything but guns for mass murders. How can any organization stand up and protect the "right" to own and use 100-round ammunition drums, only designed for mass killing and nothing else? America is awash in an epidemic of gun violence because we have the most lax and reckless gun control laws in the civilized world. Cities are dealing with waves of shootings and terrorism at the hands of criminals with easy access to legal guns.  -  progressive

  •  I can't believe I'm in agreement with (0+ / 0-)

    even one line of a Doubthat screed:

    conservatism that’s marched into an ideological cul-de-sac and is currently battering its head against the wall
    but that's the most succinct description of their current predicament.
    And this from Friedman:
    either change your base by educating and leading G.O.P. voters back to the center-right from the far right, or start a new party
    YES!!! Because the first half of that line is not happening, the second half is how we finally rid ourselves of the scourge known as the GOP.
    And the sooner the better.
    So keep it up RWNJs, luv ya, don't ever change....

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:12:11 AM PST

  •  Why so serious?!?! (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know what anyone expected this guy to say but maybe we should all look at what his position is about and why we didn't get the response we felt was right.

    He is a shill for the gun industry.
    He is a promoter of gun sales and use.
    He is a lobbyist for gun manufacturers and sellers.

    His job is to see to the proliferation of sale to all markets possible.
    That means public as well as private, military and non-military.

    This is about MONEY.

    Once the pursuit of that artificial instrument becomes the driving force, there is no 'sense' to be made from anything other than knowing it is about greed.

    They do not Care about the deaths otherwise they would not be such proponents of the manufacturing of weapons.

    No other response can be made by the N.R.A. to convince anyone of intelligence otherwise.

    There is no compassion for others in what they do.
    Putting more guns into the hands of people is not promoting safety, security or liberty.

    It is promoting the use of them!
    It is making sure we all find an excuse to use them.
    It is a manner of seeking profits at the expense of those who would buy them.

    Once purchased, they wipe their hands clean claiming they didn't pull the trigger or whatever excuse they manufacture to suit the circumstance of the incident.

    So, why is everyone so serious about the response from the head of this organization?
    Because we all know it's implications. We understand that it is no longer them we need to look to for any kind of resolution to the continuing crisis's that we have seen committed so frequently.

    Over 100 people have died in gun related deaths since Sandy Hook and the N.R.A. is still pushing gun laws and sales and rights.

    Human rights are no where to be found except when they use them to justify putting a loaded gun into the hands of someone with the supporting claim that it is now a deterrent.
    The ignorance of that statement is baffling because even with all the gun safety courses and training, no one is ever really ready for a situation involving guns that doesn't deal with it daily as a matter of their career similar in law enforcement or military.

    So what can we take away from this mans speech.
    They are not going to help! That is it.

    So, we must look to doing what has been a forbidden issued among all the gun owners and 2nd amendment freaks...regulating gun ownership and instituting laws that will bring the death toll down to zero.

    The second amendment guarantees the citizens the right to bear arms and that the militia's are well regulated.
    People can keep their arms: in their homes. Bringing them out into the public should be considered a criminal act.

    Take the 'gun show rhetoric and shove it back up into the holes you dug it out of.
    Do it online with photos but the gun must stay inside where it was meant to be by the 2nd amendment to defend your property.
    You don't need to 'take' it anywhere to show it off or otherwise promote the fanaticism of death it is made to inflict!
    That is what is wrong with us. We are fascinated with inflicting death and for those who don't have control over their faculties, have been recently tormented or pissed off, they become the instrument of their wrath and fulfillment of inflicting that death!

    We need to keep these weapons out of the public, out of the hands of those who can buy them without checks at gunshows.

    Regulating guns is the next step.

    Making gun owners responsible for their use is paramount.

    Gotta hunt!?!?!
    File a hunting itinerary for the day and where you will be going with the local authorities.
    Take a gps locator with you strapped to your ankle.
    Stray from that itinerary and you are in trouble.

    That is regulating gun use!

  •  What a surprise. Tuned into MTP (0+ / 0-)

    and Gregory is going after LaPierre. I had hoped he might but to actually see it is a surprise.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:19:25 AM PST

  •  NRA foaming at the mouth (0+ / 0-)

    Meet the Press interview is not going well and Wayne is literally foaming at the mouth

  •  Maybe I need a gun. Should I carry a gun? (0+ / 0-)

    Our small business  fired a guy a while back for disappearing from work for hours at a time.  Given his history he was probably visiting a lady who was not his wife.  He loves shooting and thinks 'they' might come to take his guns.

    More recently a guy resigned.  I hear that he has money problems now.  He loves shooting and thinks 'they' might come to take his guns.  I happen to know that he has been treated for severe psychological problems.

    Within the past few weeks we had a new hire put his hands on one of the women work here.  We suspended him pending investigation but he walked out on the spot, screaming threats against us.  I have no idea whether he is a shooter.

    Any business faces these risks, but I feel them keenly right now.  Every well-publicized shooting tells the weak minds among us that shooting up the place is not crazy, it is something that people do, an option to be considered.

    We can't hire armed guards for both of our offices.  Should I get a carry permit?  Should my branch manager get a carry permit?

    Or am I over-reacting to a tragedy that will soon pass?

    Or am I nuts?

    A new birth of freedom..

    by docterry on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:24:29 AM PST

    •  how is having a gun going to protect you? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lurkyloo, mmacdDE

      the element of surprise is always on the side of the perp. They take out the guy with the gun first.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:36:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  NRA is an easy target, but not the big problem. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg Dworkin

    Let the NRA blather.  It's their members that matter.

    Yeah, sure, NRA reps say stupid things, represent bad people, and spread a bunch of money around, but they wouldn't have an impact if their message didn't resonate with a lot of voters.

    If there is  a silver lining in the timing and nature of the Aurora and Newtown shootings, and I am loathe to find silver linings in such awful happenings, it is that a lot more people will be open to reasonable restrictions and more willing to see some of the stupid things coming out of NRA mouths as -- ummm --- stupid things.

    I believe that the vast majority of NRA members are responsible people -- that's one reason for joining the NRA.  Most of them will recognize the difference between the things they do and the activities that we seek to prevent.

    There is a real win to be had here...and it sounds like the administration is talking the right talk so far. No notable infringement on the ability to hunt or to defend one's person and home.  Nothing that seems like a second amendment violation.

    Admittedly, the whole "assault weapon" thing is kind of silly, banning guns because they look scary, but limitations on magazine size and ammunition types are real wins.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:30:32 AM PST

    •  look at the polls (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kovie, wintergreen8694

      conservatives and hunters support common sense assault weapon control. The NRA speaks for manufacturers, not gun owners.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Ninety-two percent of Americans support background checks. Of course, the NRA opposes them.

      The National Rifle Association (NRA) is calling on its membership to help repeal a 1989 law that created the Virginia Firearms Transaction Program (VFTP).   A state-of-the-art database that is second to none in the nation, the VFTP works in conjunction with the FBI’s National Instant Background Checks System (NICS) to check the background of those purchasing firearms in the Commonwealth of Virginia [...] In an August 18 alert to its members, the NRA described the VFTP as “obsolete and unnecessary.” [...]
      This is not the first time the NRA has attempted to undermine the background check system for firearm purchasers.  After the Brady Act was signed in 1994, the NRA funded lawsuits in nine different states that sought to have the law struck down as unconstitutional.  The NRA argued that states could not be compelled to submit records to the federal background check system maintained by the FBI.  The Supreme Court agreed with that principle, but rejected the NRA’s argument that “the whole statute must be voided.”  In large part because of this litigation, millions of records are missing today from NICS that otherwise would be stopping dangerous individuals from buying guns.

      Sixty-three percent of Americans support banning assault rifles, only 32 oppose. That includes a majority of conservatives and gun owners. But of course, the NRA is opposed.
      Sixty-nine percent of Americans support banning internet sales of guns and ammo. The NRA is financially vested in such sales.

      Seventy-six percent of Americans support closing the gun-show loophole, only 19 percent oppose. Seventy-one percent of conservatives agree. Logically, the NRA sits with the 19 percent fringe.

      Only five percent of Americans oppose banning gun ownership for convicted violent felons. Naturally, the NRA sits with that five percent fringe. Heck, they're even okay with potential terrorists buying and owning guns!

      Sixty-four percent of Americans support banning magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, including a majority of conservatives and gun owners. Too bad the NRA opposes that too.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:39:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are responsible gun owners (4+ / 0-)

        And there are gun nuts. The former support a ban on certain kinds of weapons that no responsible gun owner needs or should want or have any reason to own and use, and the latter do not. We need to drive a wedge between them.

        It seems to me that the standard is clear. If a firearm or accessory serves none of the nearly universally recognized legitimate uses for firearms, e.g. hunting, self-defense, target shooting, historical collecting, family heirloom, etc., then it should not be legal for private citizens to buy, own or use one.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:07:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What? You can't hunt with a 50 caliber sniper (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kovie

          and armor-piercing rounds?

          You never know when those deer will start using tanks.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:34:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I love that people (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kovie, dinotrac, annieli

            think it's fun to shoot at exploding targets.

            i promise you none of the deer in town explode when hit with bullets. Nor do the turkeys or coyotes.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:38:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm no gun person (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mmacdDE

            But I'm fairly certain that hunting licenses prohibit the use of such weapons and ammo for hunting under any circumstance, perhaps not even on your own land as it's cruel to wildlife (even if you keep them stocked).

            Nor do you need them to do these other things that I listed. Therefore, you don't need them, period. Therefore, they should be illegal for private people, given that they're extremely dangerous and their ONLY purpose is to kill a lot of people fast. Or should cluster bombs be legal too?

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:42:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It was a joke. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Greg Dworkin

              I'm pretty sure deer will not be taking to tanks any time soon.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:43:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  well... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                annieli, dinotrac

                This one's a green beret

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:00:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I realized it was a joke (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dinotrac, mmacdDE

                I was just taking the underlying point further, that guns are very dangerous tools that should only be ownable by individuals for legitimate purposes, and that assault weapons have no legitimate civilian purpose (aside from, perhaps, limited forms of target shooting, but only on licensed gun ranges, to be safely stored on site and never allowed to be taken home).

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:40:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ah. The sniper rifle, by the way, is a more clear (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kovie

                  case than so-called assault weapons, which turn out to be a very mushy category.

                  The 50 cal sniper rifle to which I referred -- specifically, a Barret M82 (though the M107 probably qualifies) can hit a target a mile away (not a hunting thing as it allows a wounded animal to suffer for a long time before the hunter might reach it) and fire armor-piercing rounds.

                  I'm not even sure the police need that one.

                  I hope that our friends in Congress get a little smarter this time around than they were with the original assault weapons ban.  Instead of a list, perhaps they can define a set of characteristics or capabilities that simply have no place in civilian hands.  Like -- who in the Hell needs a 50 caliber slug?

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:53:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Which is why I'm not limiting the ban list (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dinotrac

                    to assault weapons (which is kind of a nebulous term since it could include military-grade shotguns, flashbangs, RPGs, etc.), but to any weapon that has no valid civilian use, , or accessory that can turn a legitimate weapon into one.

                    There's a reason, after all, that sawed off shotguns are illegal.

                    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                    by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:18:07 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  PS I live in Newtown CT (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kovie, annieli, Amber6541

      this is very personal.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:40:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Personal or not, it's also politics. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg Dworkin

        And there's a real win to be had here.

        There's also a chance to dispel notions that the administration is coming for people's guns.  A thoughtful approach in the wake of such horror should calm the nerves of all but the most-rabid lead heads.

        And, as is usual in politics, those whom you cannot influence do not matter except as a source of occasional inconvenience.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:57:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yep (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dinotrac

          and there's room for that kind of apporach.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:59:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thinking further on your connection to this event. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marsanges, mmacdDE, Noelle in MPLS

            There have been a few comments on this site and elsewhere to the effect that everybody gets excited when white kids get killed, but don't care about all of the children of color getting killed on a daily basis.

            I don't believe for a moment that race has anything to do with the reaction to this event, but it does give one pause.

            As horrible as the Newtown shooting was, it really was an isolated event made remarkable only by the circumstances.

            Last month, there were 192 shootings in Chicago.
            The city is closing in on 500 murders for the year.  A single neighborhood -- the Austin neighborhood -- has suffered nearly 3 dozen of those.

            We have young kids shot on front porches and promising high school students shot on the way home from school or nights out.

            It's good -- very good -- that we try to make mass horrors like Newtown and Aurora harder to do, but it would be so much better to get some honest talk and action on the much larger and deadlier question of Americans killing each other.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:12:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  indeed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dinotrac

              kids die in bridgeport and hartford every day.

              the ultimate discussion is about gun violence, but there's no easy fixes to poverty and gangs.

              do what you can, then move on to something else.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:24:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Coming for their guns, not necessarily (0+ / 0-)

          But willing to buy their guns, sure. A buy back program needs to part of any serious gun bill.

          We have to get the number of guns down somehow. A buy back will help do that. Especially if the amount is decent.

          And we also gave to make it clear that if you don't sell them to the govt, you're likely to wind up in jail when they're banned.

  •  Missed seeing an open thread... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    ...time limited today, so here's what I was hoping to share & draw attention to:

    HTML Magic for Diarists - Image Mapping with Anchors or Links

    Skill level: Advanced (but learnable by code-friendly novices & moderate coders)

    Mumsie (a.k.a. Georgia) saying Alzhimer's Association site Her Final Year book website My Amazon AuthorCentral page Image Map
    Georgia, a.k.a. "Mumsie"
    So - who wants to learn how to create an image map for diaries on Daily Kos?

    Do you know what an image map is? It's when you embed an image, then make different parts of it clickable so that clicking on different regions of the image will take you to different places. As an example, I've taken an image of Mumsie from the dKos image library and added a URL to it (fairly standard technique, so that clicking the image goes to a site or to the image source) plus I've added an image map - if you mouse-over Mumsie's head or hands, you'll see that they each point to a different location - while the rest of the image itself points to the original location that I want the image linked to.

    Neat, eh?

  •  Douthat--even the name sounds dubious (0+ / 0-)

    How does he square this with the many voices calling for a ban on assault weapons on the right and center (Bloomberg is most decidedly not a leftist):

    For a week after the Newtown shooting, the conversation was dominated by the self-righteous certainties of the American center-left. In print and on the airwaves, the chorus was nearly universal: the only possible response to Adam Lanza’s rampage was an immediate crusade for gun control, the necessary firearm restrictions were all self-evident, and anyone who doubted their efficacy had the blood of children on his hands.
    He strikes me as the sort of milquetoast armchair conservative who finds guns masculating, and is able to dispassionately argue for conservative positions in a purely cerebral manner, like his obvious idol William Buckley.

    I.e. not quite as stupid and offensive as Limbaugh, but still.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:03:29 AM PST

    •  but still, barely able to admit when he's wrong (0+ / 0-)

      or worse, when conservatives or republicans are wrong.

      no admiration.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:26:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's one of the new generation of cons (0+ / 0-)

        Who grew up unself-critically idolizing Reagan and Buckley and all those clever liars and fools and absolutely convinced of their infallibility. They've come to be a bit more critical of what can only be called their ideological faith, but clearly, they're incapable of truly leaving the nest and thinking on their own.

        And that, to me, is a hallmark of modern conservatism, uncritical and smugly self-satisfied and self-contained doctrinaire thinking independent of, unreliant on and unresponsive to reality, not to mention blithely unconcerned with the welfare of others, especially those less well-off than oneself. It's the ideology of those who don't care and don't want to share.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:35:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  ignore them (0+ / 0-)

    Just stop paying attention to these NRA Hucksters. Turn them off like any other stupid sales pitch. Imho

    Rakoff for president! "An application of judicial power that does not rest on facts is worse than mindless, it is inherently dangerous..." -- Medicare for All -- "Justice delayed is justice denied" for the 99%

    by EquityRoy on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:04:57 AM PST

  •  LaPierre on MTP: Me So Crazy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, mmacdDE

    LaPierre: If It’s Crazy To Put More Guns In Schools, Then Call Me Crazy

    Let all the Bush tax cuts expire

    by Paleo on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:05:38 AM PST

  •  Wow, Friedman actually made sense (0+ / 0-)

    Every now and then he gets it right.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:21:33 AM PST

  •  Leonard Pitts ! Wow ! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    big badda boom : GRB 090423

    by squarewheel on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:21:41 AM PST

  •  I am fed up and ready to put some money and energy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    into fighting the NRA and the gun lobby.  Does anyone know the most effective organization to do this?  My incoming representative is a Perry crony and I expect zip out of Cornyn and Cruz, so, although I am going to write them, I would like to do more in the most effective way.  
    If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.  Thanks

  •  Wayne LePetithomme n/t (0+ / 0-)

    I knew she was the gal for me as soon as she laid her eyes on me. Right on me shoulder, she did. Popped the buggers right out her head, and laid em on me shoulder. She's a sweet heart, that gal.

    by glb3 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:42:03 AM PST

  •  "Pre-Crime" Caputo? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, mmacdDE

    This article sounds like part of the Tom Cruise script pages that fell on the floor. There is no way we are going to start locking up people for "thinking" about killing little kids. That's just not the way our justice system works. So the next best thing is to limit to damage these people can accomplish and improving our health care system so that people can get preventative care they need to stave off that suicidal rage moment.

    Perhaps one cause has been overlooked to much of the violence we see in today's world. It might be time to look at our current economy as a prime indicator of high stress situations. Bosses that demand longer hours, lower pay, no benefits, and higher than possible productivity. Our jobs lately have stressed everyone out beyond what is normal. How many violent crimes have occurred because someone got fired, laid off, lost their home, or just got fed up with the latest request from the boss?

    There is no way to measure if someone is going to commit a crime. And we cannot restrict someone's rights on what the MIGHT or MIGHT NOT do. But we can and should improve the livelihoods of everyone to the point where the stress is no longer contributing to the violence in our society. It's just something that CAN be done instead of trying to follow a bad sci-fi movie script.

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 08:58:41 AM PST

    •  And the latest mass murderers (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wynter

      Might have had problems, but they weren't criminals. They hadn't been treated for any mental health problems. If you require reporting of those that do get treated, you're just going to make people LESS likely to get help, not more.

      Of course you want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but these people WEREN'T criminals.

      •  Couldn't agree more... (0+ / 0-)

        I always go back to the idea we all learned while parenting.

        We can't stop our children from getting into trouble, nor should we because that's how they learn. But we can mitigate the damage by putting things out of harm's way.

        Ever baby-proof your house? lol...

        "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

        by Wynter on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:11:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Shoots Self In Foot...Again (0+ / 0-)

    "I don't buy your argument for a minute," LaPierre said. "There are so many different ways to evade that, even if you had that."
    This wasn't a comment about LaPierre's "invinsible" shield he wants to put in every school, but about banning 30 round mags.
    Clueless.

    I knew she was the gal for me as soon as she laid her eyes on me. Right on me shoulder, she did. Popped the buggers right out her head, and laid em on me shoulder. She's a sweet heart, that gal.

    by glb3 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:41:05 AM PST

  •  And to raise another topic . . . (0+ / 0-)

    This will be too late and too long to be notice by much of the DK universe, but that's OK, I'm used to being ignored.

    What this discussion leads me to is a larger question that I have thought about in the past, but is simply ignored by those who simply assume that what is, is the way things must be.

    Here it is:  The fundamental, unstated assumption of the American -- and pretty much any other -- legal system is that courts, judges, and the system in general can and should judge people.  In a criminal procedure, the end result is a judgement of the person who is being prosecuted, and not of the acts that person has committed.

    I submit that this assumption is both wrong and arrogant.  We have moved away from a world in which phrenology or physiognomy are used to evaluate the sum total of a person's character, but not that far.  In trials, in punishment decisions, in parole boards, in the entire criminal justice system, the working assumption is that someone can evaluate the inner workings and character of an individual, and decide whether that individual is a "good" person or a "bad."

    This extends to the ridiculous questions that the nattering class always asks when horrific acts are committed, as to whether there were "warning signs" that could have helped someone -- no idea who -- "predict" that the perpetrator was planning or even capable of the often unimaginably awful acts that then took place.

    We, as a society, as a political system, as a legal system, need to get real.  We need to recognize that the future is an open system.  We can gauge probabilities, but anyone who claims to be able to accurately and reliably predict the future is both delusional and lying.  (Nate Silver, you don't count.  You weren't predicting; you were just analyzing polling data.)  We need to not just ignore them; we need to laugh them off the national stage.

    Well, as usual I haven't stated my point very well, but I got it off my chest, and maybe one or two of you will chance to look at this and at least think, question, and wonder.  That's all I expect.

    For that I thank you.  And maybe someday I'll actually put these thoughts down in a coherent form . . .

    In Washington, whenever anyone does something wrong, everyone else gets punished.

    by Noziglia on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:02:39 AM PST

  •  A theological question of major importance... (0+ / 0-)

    ...along with," How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" may well occupy the allegedly valuable time of Christian apologists and talking heads - namely: when you all know 'who' comes drifting down on that cloud will the stem cell less corpses be left with the where with all to rise from the dead?

  •  It's time to get serious about killing machines (0+ / 0-)

    The quotation from Phillip Caputo speaks of "Libertarians and gun-rights lobbyists" who "say that guns don’t kill people, people kill people." This is based on the extreme individualist theory that there are only individuals, there are no groups.

    They claim that all decisions are made by individuals, so you cannot use society and social groups to solve social problems. Groups are somehow formed by individual decisions to join them and to act in concert with others.

    Yeah, right. As an infant each of us looked around for compatible fellow individuals, found a family and decided to join it. It was going to be a rational decision to find others who would teach us to talk, to learn a culture we would join, to ride bicycles and join churches. It should be perfectly clear that the radical individualist is hogwash. Families, churches, and other groups like schools all have major impacts on our personalities and on the ways we deal with perceived problems.

    But the Libertarians and gun-rights lobbyists want us fooled because we cannot actually see the pressures that groups put on us. As long as we cannot see the group pressures and claim that they do not exist then the Libertarians and gun-rights lobbyists are free to use those techniques to manipulate us.

    They manipulate us by teaching us that we owe no loyalty to any group. We only decide which one to go with out of pure self-interest. The core of this philosophy is built into the theory of modern economics, but it ignores the social side of our lives.

    If Wayne La Pierre can use the killings in Newton, CN to make everyone afraid and if he can convince us there are no effective group measures that can minimize or prevent those kinds of killings, then they can sell us that the only protection we each have is to buy a gun and be ready to shoot to kill whenever necessary.

    That is the theory of the NRA and of ALEC. It is intended to increase the size and demand of the market for small arms in America. America is the place where individuals own over half the small arms that exist in the world. America is also the place where over two-thirds of the mass killings by gunmen in the world have occurred. All those firearms sure helped the kids and teachers in Newton, CT, didn't they?  

    It's time to outlaw the private ownership of firearms and confiscate the ones that are floating around. That is the only protection we will get from the crazies like Lanza, Laughner, and Wayne La Pierre. Take away their tools for killing.

    Leonard Pitts is completely correct.

    Let us not pretend our sorrow in this moment means a damn thing or changes a damn thing, because it doesn’t and won’t. Not until or unless the American nation is finally willing to confront its unholy gun love.
    Until we decide to remove the useless tools for killing, people are going to be killed by crazies using those tools. The killings will inspire fear and anger, just as the killings in Newton have done.

    But the actions of the individual crazies cannot be predicted. Our only protections are either to hope it's people down the block getting shot and not us, or to remove access to the tools for killing.

    It's time to remove the firearms from society and limit their use to the trained police and military. As a society we have some control over those people, and we already screen the recruits for the kinds of insanity and the kinds of attitudes which lead to such senseless killings. The second amendment applies to militias, not to unorganized individuals and other crazies.

    And no, there is no property right to machines intended to kill people. Confiscate them to protect the rest of us.

    The US Supreme Court has by its actions and rhetoric has ceased to be legitimate. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

    by Rick B on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:45:11 AM PST

  •  Let's make it clear (0+ / 0-)

    What the NRA is advocating is nothing less than asking parents to support either an increase in taxes or a cut in other services to hire police to make a snap decision as to whether or not to shoot their children when they get out of line.

    Does anyone, including members of the NRA really believe that this is going to reduce shootings in our schools and foster a healthy environment for the development of children?

    No other civilization on earth, even the most totalitarian ones have ever been so insane as to believe that putting policemen in every classroom and at every school door will make anyone safer.

    Let's face it, the NRA's argument is yet again one more excuse to sell more guns.  They have no other agenda and evidently no other purpose.

  •  Stem cells from bone marrow (0+ / 0-)

    There are problems with immune rejection of allogeneic stem cells, which is iPSCs made from a patient's own cells are the holy grail of stem cell therapy.

  •  More on stem cells (0+ / 0-)
    Unlike other tissue transplants, MSCs taken from one person tend not to be rejected by another's immune system. In fact, MSCs appear to pacify immune cells. It is this feature which has made MSC treatments invaluable for children with graft-versus-host disease, in which transplants aimed at treating diseases such as leukaemia attack the child instead.

    Stem cell therapies require a huge numbers of cells though, and it can be difficult to obtain a sufficient amount from a living donor. Could cadavers be the answer? After death, most cells in the body die within a couple of days. But since MSCs live in an environment that is very low in oxygen, Gianluca D'Ippolito and his colleagues at the University of Miami, Florida, wondered whether they might survive longer than the others....

    While only limited amounts of bone marrow can be taken from a living donor, a cadaver represents a plentiful source of cells, says D'Ippolito. "From one donor, you could take the whole spine, for example. You are going to end up with billions of cells."

    Paolo Macchiarini, who researches regenerative medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, describes the work as an excellent advance but says that the cells may not be as healthy as they seem. Their DNA may be affected by the death of surrounding tissue and exposure to cold temperatures. "We need to make sure the cells are safe," he says.

    from the New Scientist article

    There's no such thing as a free market!

    by Albanius on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:37:51 PM PST

  •  LePierre Unmasked... (0+ / 0-)

    INNOCENT’S SONG

    Who’s that knocking on the window,
    Who’s that standing at the door,
    What are all those presents
    Lying on the kitchen floor?

    Who is the smiling stranger
    With hair as white as gin,
    What is he doing with the children
    And who could have let him in?

    Why has he rubies on his fingers,
    A cold, cold crown on his head,
    Why, when he caws his carol,
    Does the salty snow run red?

    Why does he ferry my fireside
    As a spider on a thread,
    His fingers made of fuses
    And his tongue of gingerbread?

    Why does the world before him
    Melt in a million suns,
    Why do his yellow, yearning eyes
    Burn like saffron buns?

    Watch where he comes walking
    Out of the Christmas flame,
    Dancing, double talking:

    Herod is his name.

    ~ Charles Causley (1917-2003), English poet and writer

  •  Designate the NRA Domestic Terrorist Organization (0+ / 0-)

    It's time to stand up to the gun nuts and purveyors of senseless violence! Please sign and share this petition to the Obama administration to designate the NRA a Domestic Terrorist organization:

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/...

    We need 150 signatures to get this petition to appear visible on the White House website and 25,000 signatures within a month to move this petition into consideration by the Obama administration.

    Michael Ostrogorsky The Zen Parrot www.thezenparrot.com

    by The Zen Parrot on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:58:18 PM PST

  •  Not a whole lot (0+ / 0-)

    left to the political right anymore.

    The diarist is totally accurate:

     they are fast being labeled as a gathering of kooks.

    The Onion says----scholars have discovered---the Mayan word for "Apocalypse" in fact---translates more accurately as: "Time of pale obese gun monsters."

    by lyvwyr101 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:24:50 AM PST

  •  More gun-deaths- (0+ / 0-)

    The Onion says----scholars have discovered---the Mayan word for "Apocalypse" in fact---translates more accurately as: "Time of pale obese gun monsters."

    by lyvwyr101 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 09:08:02 AM PST

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