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No matter what your opinion of the NRA, one thing you have to admit is that their marketing is second to none.

Think about the audacity of the NRA for a second. You'd think it might be considered in bad taste to use Sandy Hook to push for more guns.

But they're so confident of their ability that they did it anyways. While the nation is still trying to figure this out, the NRA is out there pushing guns for teachers, principals, and administrators. A gun in every pocket.

I'm actually surprised they haven't argued that kids should have guns. I can almost picture the marketing department meeting: What about kids with guns? Too early, Jim ... but I like how you think.  

In the wake of the NRA's latest statement after meeting with President Biden yesterday, I wanted to take a second to break down how their marketing works to shift the argument away from what happened to how gun owners are the real victims of gun attacks.

The statement in full is posted here on Slate.

Let's parse this out sentence by sentence as it truly is a work of art.

The National Rifle Association of America is made up of over 4 million moms and dads, daughters and sons, who are involved in the national conversation about how to prevent a tragedy like Newtown from ever happening again.
Translation: Families own guns. Moms own guns. Daughters and sons own guns. It's perfectly normal to be cooking an apple pie at home with a gun in one hand.

Nothing to see folks ... no nutbags here. No Columbine. No Aurora. No Sandy Hook. Moms and kids shooting together in perfect harmony.

We attended today's White House meeting to discuss how to keep our children safe and were prepared to have a meaningful conversation about school safety, mental health issues, the marketing of violence to our kids and the collapse of federal prosecutions of violent criminals.
Translation: We attended this meeting because Sandy Hook is a publicity disaster for gun makers. We have to get in front of this and change the narrative.
We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment.
Translation: Let's bring the children back into this. That would be a good start. Is there any way we could be protectors of puppies too? Hmmm. We'll have to think about that.

We've got to change the narrative so we'll need another victim. The real victims here are gun owners. This is a war on the Second Amendment. And puppies.

While claiming that no policy proposals would be "prejudged," this Task Force spent most of its time on proposed restrictions on lawful firearms owners — honest, taxpaying, hardworking Americans.
Translation: The people under attack here are honest, taxpaying, hardworking Americans being attacked by the government. Not some kids who died in Connecticut.
It is unfortunate that this Administration continues to insist on pushing failed solutions to our nation's most pressing problems.
Translation: The government is to blame! Even though we don't believe the government should be acting, someone else needs to be blamed.  
We will not allow law-abiding gun owners to be blamed for the acts of criminals and madmen.
Translation: We've got to make gun owners feel angry, like it's an attack on them. If you own a gun, you're being blamed!

Remember, the real victims here are gun owners.

Instead, we will now take our commitment and meaningful contributions to members of congress of both parties who are interested in having an honest conversation about what works — and what does not.  
Translation: Do you hear that Congress? We'll donate to you if you tow the line. Which means you shouldn't even be talking about this.  

Now I'm not arguing one way or another for gun control. This is a discussion about marketing.

What I do know, however, is that this isn't a war on moms and pops who own guns and/or the Second Amendment.  

Can we have a conversation about what happened though? Can we even talk about things like high capacity magazines? Or about how to keep guns out of the hands of "criminals and madmen"?  

When even Antonin Scalia suggests that there are limits to gun ownership under the 2nd Amendment - an obvious one that comes to mind is the illegality of machine guns - shouldn't we be able to have this conversation?

We're able to talk about car regulations without the emotion. And we should be able to talk rationally about gun ownership. However, this might impact gun sales. Especially of assault style weapons and high capacity magazines.  

I'm sorry NRA, but it's pretty obvious what you're doing. You're trying to shut down any conversation on the issue. You're changing the subject so we can't even have a calm discussion about what the Second Amendment means. You're pumping people full of anger and fear in order to sell more guns.

I suppose if we buy it, however, we deserve it, right?


Originally posted to akadjian on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:06 AM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The NRA is only effective (8+ / 0-)

    because of our craven and corrupt political system.

    When their members don't agree with them, the public doesn't agree with them .... indeed, no one with any credibility agrees with them yet they still appear to have influence.

    If we continue to sell our representatives to the highest bidder, and they continue to willfully abandon their oaths of office with no one prepared to call them on it, then we will continue to get the laws we deserve.

    Thanks for the Diary.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:23:44 AM PST

    •  Why the Congress is so afraid of the NRA (5+ / 0-)

      is beyond me.

      Rachel Maddow showed how their return on the money they spent in this past election got them .83% return (that is POINT Eight Three Percent).

      Which I believe means one person they supported got elected.

      They are only there to sell more guns, prop up the gun industry and kill Americans all across the country.

      Thanks NRA, such a family oriented group of folks.

      -6.13 -4.4 Where are you? Take the Test!!!

      by MarciaJ720 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:44:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Doesn't sound reasonable. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mindara, Words In Action

        The trouble is that Congress lives in a bubble that is an endless round of fund-raising and peddling influence. They share it with the media.

        So they generally hear only what they want to hear, or what scares them the most.

        That would be Grover Norquist and the NRA.

        Yes, it's an illusion, but it works because we allow unlimited funding, and lobbying.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:52:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  They're afraid of being primaried. And if they (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, twigg, Words In Action

        lose (Mitch McTurtle) they lose their place at the feeding trough that's filled with taxpayer dollars.

        What they have failed to realize is that the longer this delusional game of chicken goes on and the more they keep introducing bills to repeal Obamacare (what is it, 34 of the same exact fucking bill introduced in the last 2 years??), bills to further restrict abortion rights, bills to defund Planned Parenthood, fetal personhood bills and introduce not one other piece of legislation like a jobs bill, refuse to pass a clean Sandy relief bill (for fuck's sake...hurricane, drought and tornado season are coming up soon, red states) and keep threatening to default on the debt that they, the GOP, authorized to spend LAST YEAR and regarding the sequester, threaten to shut the government down....the more marginalized, out of touch and insignificant they are percieved to be as a party.

        And you know, we just had 20 first grade children slaughtered in their own elementary school and you have the Teabaggers/GOP, the NRA and republican voters who won't even consider a ban on assault weapons and extended magazine clips. No one needs to have military style assault weapons with 30 round clips or 100 round drums. It's insanity to even suggest that that these weapons are necessary to hunt or to defend yourself.

        "Enough" Gabby Giffords

        by mindara on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:07:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The NRA is effective because paranoia (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      twigg, Words In Action

      is an easy sell.

      Also, because they apply the usual bribery-and-blackmail lobbying system to coerce legislators.

      They have deep roots in the Far Right political machinery. This goes back to the 1930s. Their political efforts went 100% Far Right in the 1950s.

      Richard Hofstadter wrote "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" to explore the Far Right in the 1950s, then updated in 1965.

      It could have been written yesterday.

      All you miss is Paul Weyrich and his Powell System upgrades to the flaws in the Birch Society. And modern propaganda techniques.

      Otherwise, paranoia is the key to all of it.

      "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

      by bontemps2012 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 09:54:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey, LaPierre (6+ / 0-)

    See if you can get this image out of your brain.

    I can't.

    Every American, both pro- and anti-gun, needs to have the mental motion picture of 20 babies and 6 adults being systematically executed in cold blood, in rapid succession, looping through their brains at 24 frames per second until we get to a point in this country when such an incident is no longer possible.  

    The events of December 14th, 2012 in Newtown, Ct. are not abstract, though they become so when the debate is sanitized.  We cannot, as a country, afford to sanitize the picture in this instance.  There needs to be a true visual shock to the national consciousness.  And then we need to move past shock.

    Anger and resolve on a national scale are the key emotions that will be required in order to force some rational decision making.  The path forward needs to lead to an end point where no single civilian citizen in this country has the capability of creating death-by-gun on the scale of Sandy Hook.

    The second amendment does NOT confer the right of a single person to possess the capability of mass slaughter.  If such a person has a Muslim sounding name, we call them a terrorist.  While "LaPierre" is not an Islamic surname, the organization he fronts is developing the characteristics of a large jihadi cell.

    "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

    by Richard Cranium on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:26:07 AM PST

  •  PRESIDENT Biden? (4+ / 0-)

    "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

    by kestrel9000 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:28:24 AM PST

  •  After the gun jammed at the mall sheooting, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I was watching for the NRA to put out a consumer warning about the quality of the firearm he used.


  •  The NRA are assholes with a microphone. (0+ / 0-)

    And people are paying them an awful lot to spout complete bullshit.

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:39:28 AM PST

    •  Remember, it's the marketeers ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There are a lot of good people who are NRA members.

      Be careful making the distinction. I know a lot of very responsible NRA members who are actually in favor of better regulating the industry.

      Just a quick warning to make sure we're addressing the right people.

      •  If you believe that, you believe the marketing. (0+ / 0-)

        Which you claim is brilliant.

        I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

        by detroitmechworks on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:32:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heheh. Not at all ... (0+ / 0-)

          I have friends who are NRA members who would fully support a ban on assault rifles and high magazine clips.

          I want these people on our side. So I make sure I distinguish between people who might support reasonable regulations and the actual NRA organization and their marketing arm.

          That's all I'm trying to say.

  •  It is somewhat a war (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, mindara

    on people who own guns though.

    I am pretty sure many are talking about bans on AR's and other semi auto shotguns/pistols.

    That very much is a war on those gun owners and the second admendment.

    I think the gun grabbers at least need to be honest when discussing their plans.

    If the discussion would only stick to banning high capacity magazines, mandatory background checks even on person to person sales, and stiffer penalites for straw purchases, you could most gun owners behind you.

    Instead you demand our guns and alienate us.

    •  We want the shooting to stop. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nogo postal, bhut jolokia

      And you say you at war. And you have guns.

      Yeah, we might need to consider taking some guns out of circulation. And, if need be, let's talk about an amendment that will replace the 2nd amendment.

      4 Million NRA members? That isn't a majority. That isn't democracy.

      This better be good. Because it is not going away.

      by DerAmi on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:10:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No I demand you keep your guns and alienate you. (0+ / 0-)

      If you lose control of you gun, you say oopsie, and leave me to pick up the pieces.

      If the bad guys take your gun, then I have to pick up the pieces not you.  It's not your fault.  

      It's ok I'll take care of it.  NOT

      If you were a responsible gun owner, you would sign my petition because it would make no difference to you.  You would keep your gun and what happened when the bad guys took it, wouldn't be an issue.

      Sign my White House Petition Enforce the KEEP in the Second Amendment We don't have a problem with gun control, we have a problem with gun owners controlling their guns.

      by 88kathy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:29:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't believe I could sign that (0+ / 0-)

        because your law doesn't discharge me from penalty even if it isn't in my possession.

        They same could be true of a car.  If someone steals my car and then kills someone else with it, you are saying I should be liable.  Not going for that at all.

        Furthermore, does your law allow me to sell my firearms and buy different ones?  Being able to buy and sell personal property is kinda of big deal in America.

        •  That is the point. Your gun is your gun (0+ / 0-)

          not mine.  I cannot control your gun, only you can do that.  And when you fail you expect society to pick up the pieces.


          The 2nd Amendment doesn't say the right to keep and bear carriages,  It DOES say the right to keep and bear arms.

          And yes you can legally sever your connection with any given gun by legal means.  This is where the gun show connection comes in, no you can't walk around a gun show and sell it to some yayhoo, that doesn't sever you legal connection to the gun, this is where background checks come in, no you can't transfer your legal connection to the gun unless you have a background check on the new bearer.

          And yes, you can establish a legal connection with any gun you want, just keep me out of the loop and take responsibility for keeping it,  Don't come crying to me with the bad guys took my gun, silly me, someone might get hurt.  That is totally your responsibility criminally and civilly.  Restitution and prison.

          Sign my White House Petition Enforce the KEEP in the Second Amendment We don't have a problem with gun control, we have a problem with gun owners controlling their guns.

          by 88kathy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 02:13:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Legally it can't be the fault (0+ / 0-)

            of a property owner if a burgler steals their proporty and uses said property to hurt someone else.  It is complete nonesense actually.

            Furthermore, if I accidently hurt someone with my own firearm, my current liability insurance already covers it.

            What you are proposing is the make me liable for things other people may do with my private property.  American law doesn't work that way thank God!

            •  You don't have the responsibility to keep any item (0+ / 0-)

              other than arms. This is clearly worded in the 2nd Amendment.

              It is not the right to keep and bear carriages.It is not the right to keep and bear property.

              It is the right to keep and bear arms.

              Is keep a merely decorative word?  

              Why didn't they just leave it out then.  The right to bear arms.  Why did they say the right to keep and bear arms?  

              I think they might have meant that you would be keeping them.  Not just when it was convenient, and then giving them to society to care for like some kind of stray cat.  But to actually keep them.

              Sign my White House Petition Enforce the KEEP in the Second Amendment We don't have a problem with gun control, we have a problem with gun owners controlling their guns.

              by 88kathy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:40:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Gun grabbers (0+ / 0-)

      Interesting - guess I'd rather be a gun grabber than a gun nut.

      As far as I'm concerned it is a war on those who are so selfish as to put their hobby above innocent lives. It really is that simple.

      •  In America (0+ / 0-)

        We are lucky enough to have this thing called the bill of rights which is supposed to protect me from people like yourself that want to disarm everyone.

        Your idea that guns are a hobby can be valid but that isn't the reason it was included in our bill of rights.  Gun collection is only a tiny fraction of the people who own and use guns.

        I personally don't have more guns than I use because I really am not into the gun.  It is merely a tool I use to mostly hunt with, but also protect my home/property, and occassionally use on the range.

        Demanding I give up that right and my guns simply because someone else committed a crime is nonesense.  I did nothing wrong so why go after me?

    •  it's just a discussion. really (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      why are machine guns illegal, for example?

      •  Machine Guns (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        aren't illegal.

        Get your facts straight at least.

        •  heavily regulated (0+ / 0-)

          Ok. Why are machine guns heavily regulated then?

          •  Because they require (0+ / 0-)

            a higher degree of gun knowledge and training to properly use them safely.  Pulling a trigger and having a gun continue to shoot is something a rookie shooter would struggle with and cause everyone near them to be in danger.

            The same is not true for semi-autos like an AR-15.

            •  because they were gangster weapons (0+ / 0-)
              •  Shotgun's and Pistols (0+ / 0-)

                are also used by gangs.  Should we ban them as well?

                •  no one said 'ban' (0+ / 0-)

                  I think we should look at sensibly regulating assault weapons and high capacity magazine clips.

                  I'm open to ideas though ... how would it be best to better keep these out of the hands of nutjobs?

                  •  Assault Weapon Ban (0+ / 0-)

                    Pretty sure it is being said over and over right now.

                    I am with yoiu on high capacity magazines.  Anything holding more then 20 rounds serves no great purpose.  Reduce it from 30 down to 20 and I doubt you loose many people.

                    Not sure what you mean by sensibly regulatin assault weapons.  In my world, that means have background checks for purchase even if it is person to person but that is about it.  Assault rifles are merely semi-auto long rifles afterall.  I have my grandpa's old .30-06 in my gun safe.  It too is semi-auto and would be much more lethal than any assault rifle.  Hell, it could be classified as such simply because it is a rifle and is semi-auto.  Then again it isn't black so I am probably fine.  If the gun doesn't look scary to the gun grabber crowd they generally don't grab.

                    •  interesting about 'scary' guns (0+ / 0-)

                      Hadn't even thought of that. My only point here is that the people in charge at the NRA are trying to shut down any conversation around regulation of guns.

                      Not NRA members mind. I know a lot of people here in Southern Ohio who are NRA members and the majority seem pretty cool talking about it.

                      I'm not claiming I know what the answers are. Hell, I'd want to bring in folks like yourself who know more about guns than me.

                      I just don't see why we can't have this type of conversation. My beef is with the marketing people at the NRA. I also don't agree with anyone who is trying to characterize NRA members as gun-toting nutjobs. This doesn't fit with the people I know in the NRA.

                      •  I am not an NRA member (0+ / 0-)

                        I simply will not take part in any discussion involving any idea of banning semi auto rifle, pistols, and shotguns.  If the conversation sticks only to limiting the size of magazines and background checks for all purchases (even person to person) I am all in.

                        I have nothing to discuss when people demand a ban on AR's.  It is simply not happening.  Ar's are simply the modern version of American classics.  Semi-Auto rifles have been around for over 50 years.  THe idea that someone wants to simply ban a certain kind based on looks isn't logical so I won't discuss it.  Attempting to discuss something with people that are basing their ideas on emotions is pointless.

        •  p.s. it's just a discussion (0+ / 0-)

          no need to be so angry

    •  yes it is... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mindara, akadjian

      a war on irrational fear..I have lived my adult life in areas where there are gangs and drugs..we raised our two children in these areas..never even considered owning a gun...
         We have known people with guns.. a few had them in safes..a few had combination trigger locks...
        Probably 10-15 had their guns stolen by teenage kids during a B&E
         Our next door neighbor's 5 year-old son discharged his "daddy's gun" into a wall.

          My wife and I spent two years traveling and working in London..Germany..and Spain...they don't need guns...

        If anyone believes they need a gun to protect their family from someone who is going to come in their home and shoot them..then yes that same non-logic is to have guns everywhere..schools..churches..

      This kind of logic will take a few generations to dramatically change...but we start...
         Not wearing a seat belt kills people..but far less than 30 years ago...
         Drunk drivers kill people but far less than 30 years ago...

      •  I personally don't believe (0+ / 0-)

        everyone everywhere should be required to have a gun.  I also believe it should be our choice as free Americans to protect our house the way we see fit.  You deciding that I don't need a firearm to protect my family is nonesense.  That isn't your choice to make.

    •  That is all we want (0+ / 0-)
      If the discussion would only stick to banning high capacity magazines, mandatory background checks even on person to person sales, and stiffer penalites for straw purchases, you could most gun owners behind you.
      No one wants to ban ALL guns....and shame on the NRA and their shills for continuing to propogate that bald faced lie. They have been doing nothing but fear mongering and spewing out paranoia and hysteria and they know it's a goddamned lie, but they get gun owner's all freaked out that we're coming for your guns and you all go out and buy more and more guns. The gun manufacturers (who the NRA represents) have been making record profits the last 4 years. The American people have gotten nothing out of this deal but 12 mass shootings over the last 12 years. And an average of 87 Americans dying everyday from gun violence.

      Please, please don't listen to the people telling you that anyone wants to ban all guns. It's just not true.

      "Enough" Gabby Giffords

      by mindara on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:24:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  NO (0+ / 0-)

        many are demanding a ban on AR's, semi-auto pistols, and even semi-auto shotguns.

        That is the problem.  The gun grabber crowd doesn't just want what I proposed.  They want many of the guns Americans currently have and use.  That is a HUGE problem for many of us.  Do you not understand that?

        I hunt coyotes with my AR.  I hunt pheasents with a semi-auto shotgun.  I shoot my semi-auto pistol at targets in my woods and at ranges.  Demanding on ban on any of these items from people like me is a huge loser.  You will loose many votes from hunters over talk like that.

        •  You'd vote for a Republican (0+ / 0-)

          and get your wallet gang-raped year after year, to avoid swapping over to a pump ???

          This is a top tier super-issue with you?

          "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

          by bontemps2012 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 10:01:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Actually hardening the target is a very proven (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Texas Lefty

    defense when there really is a danger. Israelis do it, I've seen it on busses in the third world that are often a target of insurgents. What makes it not so useful in the US is that statistically school shootings are so rare that it makes little sense to go to all the effort. One could say similar about airport xray screening. But reality and mass media events don't always jive.

    Because there is little to be done to protect against a madman people feel helpless, so they ask for armed guards or demand that all guns disappear or whatever.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:19:35 AM PST

  •  Part of the solution to the bearer's control of (0+ / 0-)

    arms is to enforce that the bearers of arms KEEP their arms.

    No excuses, no oopsie.

    Please sign my petition.  We don't need to keep our vocal chords dry.

    Sign my White House Petition Enforce the KEEP in the Second Amendment We don't have a problem with gun control, we have a problem with gun owners controlling their guns.

    by 88kathy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:22:02 AM PST

  •  The fact that the NRA strategy (3+ / 0-)

    is so successful says more about Americas general lack of critical analysis skills than anything else. No other country has anything even remotely similar to the NRA on any issue - this is not random.

    •'s so frustrating. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      "Enough" Gabby Giffords

      by mindara on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:26:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I actually disagree with this (0+ / 0-)

      I don't think Americans lack critical skills any more than people from any other country.

      The differences I see between our country and other countries are a couple fold.

      1. The large conservative lobbying organizations in this country including FoxNews, the entire AM dial, and numerous other conservative e-mail & print channels.

      2. A corporate media (outside of these traditional channels) which is afraid of offending business interests and therefore often simply repeats the claims of both sides.

      I really don't think people in America have a higher or lower level of critical skills. Often, however, they have only heard one side of the story. And it is often a very slick marketing message.

  •  I enjoyed reading this breakdown of the NRA (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mindara, bontemps2012

    statement.  It is true on many levels, and your conclusion:

    I'm sorry NRA, but it's pretty obvious what you're doing. You're trying to shut down any conversation on the issue. You're changing the subject so we can't even have a calm discussion about what the Second Amendment means. You're pumping people full of anger and fear in order to sell more guns.
    Your conclusion is spot on.

    Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

    by Ohiodem1 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:49:16 AM PST

  •  Riddled (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    akadjian, mindara, bontemps2012

    It was Biden who created an image for me.. for the first time

    (bold mine)

     "There is nothing that has gone to the heart of the matter more than the visual image people have of little 6-year-old kids riddled - not shot with a stray bullet - riddled, riddled, with bullet holes in their classroom,"

    42 years ago..far away from here I saw the bodies of 3 children "riddled" with bullet holes...

    Thank you Vice-President Biden for your efforts..
    Fuck the NRA and the goddamn Gun Manufacturer hose they ride...

  •  If this doesn't work - the big guns come out (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Kittens. Adorable little kittens..

    Poor people have too much money and vote too often. Republican platform plank, 1980 - present

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 08:51:33 AM PST

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