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In answer to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings NRA president Wayne LaPierre suggested assigning armed guards in our public schools. When attempting to figure out logistically and financially a viable solution to provide that kind of force in our schools let’s investigate further what that would look like. Recently, talk radio “entertainers” like Rush Limbaugh have suggested putting a retired police officer in our schools. Despite the obvious differences in training, cool-headedness and age, the gun bearers may or may not have, there are some legitimate questions we must ask.
Who will pay the retired police officers’ salaries? How will the officers be armed? Who will pay for their weapons, who will pay for their ammunition and who will pay for their ongoing training?  Are we asking the already financially encumbered public school districts to foot the bill for all of this?

Most police officers are issued a service weapon. For example, the LAPD uses a 22 40 caliber Glock. It varies on the police department. Most use the Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig Sauer or possibly the H & K. Approximately 65% of police departments in America issue this grade of pistol. These are handguns not rifles.

The Newtown and Aurora shooters carried the Bushmaster AR-15. The AR-15 is a lightweight, 5.56 mm, magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle, with a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long/short stroke piston operation. The Standard issue magazines are 20 or 30 round staggered-column magazines, traditional box magazines exist in 40 and 45 round capacities, and usable magazines have been constructed from a variety of materials including steel, aluminum, and high-impact plastics. Drum magazines with 90 and 100 round capacities exist, such as Beta C-Mags.

Most police officers carry the G30S pistol. The G30 combines the full capacity .45 Auto round count with a slimmer slide. This pistol offers a lighter, more easily concealable option for Law Enforcement. Being able to conceal a weapon while walking the hallways of a public school has been an important concern for officers who are already in schools.

LaPierre’s call for a “National School Safety Shield” falls under criticism because Columbine High School had two armed guards. Virginia Tech had a whole armed campus police department and Ft. Hood was a heavily armed military facility.

On a personal note; my father was a police officer. He served for close to thirty years. He won many sharp shooter awards and was an impeccable marksman. Dad was also a war veteran. Even with all this experience and expertise Dad and his service pistol would not have stood a chance against a shooter with an assault rifle.  The assault rifles have longer range capabilities. They have a faster delivery system and their magazines carry many more bullets.

We need a ban on assault rifles, reduced magazine clips, universal background checks and a better mental health system.
We need gun safety. That is what will make our communities and our schools safer.

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Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:42 PM PT: We also need to consider where the armed security officer will be during the school day. Will he be outside at 1st or 2nd recess where the students are most vulnerable? Will he be in be in the cafeteria where large numbers of students are assembled?  Will he be roaming the hallways all day long?  I think the idea of an armed officer makes us all feel better but, in my opinion it won't secure the student population. We must have a conversation about gun control and mental healthcare. Please.  

Originally posted to Weezerr1 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:03 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Even IF an assault weapons ban passes, armed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, annecros, nextstep, Weezerr1

    security in schools is not a bad idea.

    The mass shootings you listed in your diary involved either sociopaths or lunatics (or a combination of the two).

    Just because a Bushmaster has more firepower than your father's service revolver, it doesn't mean it wouldn't provide an added level of protection against said killers.  I would point to China, where the knife or machete seems to be the weapon of choice for school yard mass murderers.

    Providing armed security at all of our schools might be too expensive an undertaking, but that doesn't mean that if implemented, it wouldn't be more effective than no security at all (which was the case at Sandy Hook)

    Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

    by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:21:08 PM PST

    •  School Security (0+ / 0-)

      In my school district, the high schools and middle schools already have on duty police officers in their buildings. It all started as part of the DARE program and one officer traveled from one school to another.  They now have officers on site every day at all the higher ed schools. The elementary schools have similar security to what Sandy Hook had. The only way to enter is by passing your DL through a kyosk that immediately identifies your past offenses. My school IDed a cola distributor who was a felon. Just like Sandy Hook, all of this special security would do no good if the front glass doors are blasted by gun fire.

  •  Nonsense (7+ / 0-)

    The high rate of fire of "assault weapons" is only actually useful for laying "suppressive fire", ie. making somebody seek and stay behind cover while somebody else moves in on them. In an actual one-on-one engagement accuracy is FAR more important than theoretical rates of fire. A one-on-one firearm engagement requires exactly one accurate shot to end decisively.

    At Fort Hood the troops don't walk around armed, I happened to have been stationed there twice. Unless they are in the field their weapons are secured in the arms room, and when they ARE in the field they are strictly prohibited from having live ammo. The ONLY time weapons and live ammo come together at Hood are on a range, under close supervision.

    Finally, assuming your Father's qualifications are accurately represented, no asshat with an "assault rifle" shooting up a school or theater would have stood a chance against him.

    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

    by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:22:33 PM PST

    •  Unless they are shooting into a crowd . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SuetheRedWA
      Finally, assuming your Father's qualifications are accurately represented, no asshat with an "assault rifle" shooting up a school or theater would have stood a chance against him.
      A shooter doing 3 rounds bursts vs a shooter doing one round ...
      A shooter with a few 30 round magazines vs a shooter without the same ...
      They arm combat soldiers with select fire for a reason ...

      I read a study , the grouping when under fire goes to hell .
      They went to scenes where officers were under fire and looked at where the officers hit . The grouping at the range were much much better , out in the real world where someone was shooting back , the grouping went wild .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:37:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But Bushmasters don't have select fire or (4+ / 0-)

        three round bursts.  The service revolver and the Bushmaster have the same rate of fire, how fast you can pull the trigger.

        At close range I would put my money on the cop with a revolver over the nut with a long gun.  Now if the shooter is shooting from long range, the response would have to be with a long gun as well.

        Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

        by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:43:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh really ? (0+ / 0-)

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:47:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just posting links? Lazy writer n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kentucky Kid

            Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

            by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:51:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did you just insult me because you didn't read ? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, jsfox

              Do you want me to repost the diary as a comment so you don't have to click on a link ?

              How would you have me post the youtube so that you don't have to click on a link ?

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:57:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I did read, which was just more links. Lazy. Actu (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kentucky Kid, annecros

                Actually, you doulbed down on lazy.

                Of course, I'll admit it didn't take much reading to get your point (even though you didn't actually state your point) that you believe the Bushmaster has select fire.

                I'm not a gun owner, and don't proclaim to be a weapons expert, but I did serve in Iraq and carried the military versions of the Bushmaster (variants of the M16, followed by the M4, which do have burst and auto modes)

                I did follow the link to your diary, which led to a collection of links you assembled.  There's an old adage, "don't believe everything you read on the internet".  I try to tell that to my mother when she sends me links to articles about President Obama's "foreign student ID card".

                In your case, I decided to stop reading your diary when I saw one of the links included the phrase "30 round burst".  Again, I'm not an expert on weapons, but when I read a claim of a "30 round burst", my bullshit radar goes on full alert.  For all I know, you are an expert, but the way you presented your source info, inclines me to believe otherwise.

                Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:09:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your not interested in finding out , (0+ / 0-)

                  that makes you ...

                  "30 round burst" google search
                  "About 26,800,000 results (0.23 seconds)"
                  https://www.google.com/...

                  AR-15 30 Round Burst - YouTube
                  ► 0:21► 0:21
                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRFkKHiro
                  Oct 6, 2012 - Uploaded by speedgtr92
                  The Best 30 round burst in less than 2 seconds. Reply ... Rounds Per Minute | G&G LR300 (Re-Upload)by ...
                  AR-15 30 round burst - YouTube
                  ► 1:03► 1:03
                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=D08zwTv_Jsw
                  Nov 22, 2012 - Uploaded by dirttruck22k
                  Slide Fire AR-15 (wait till end)by CBURN86165 views · Slide Fire 30 round burst 1:57. Watch Later Slide Fire ...
                  45cal MAC 10 30 round burst - YouTube
                  ► 0:07► 0:07
                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyFWUUmY9-U
                  Apr 17, 2011 - Uploaded by KansasCityPrepper
                  45cal MAC 10 30 round burst ... 0:27. Watch Later Mac 11 with Silencer in Full Auto with 30 Round Magazineby ...
                  Slide Fire 30 round burst - YouTube
                  ► 1:57► 1:57
                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9l1Cc203Kg
                  May 29, 2012 - Uploaded by vortxx
                  30 rounds from an AR rifle - full auto using Slide Fire stock - filmed with Contour Roam mounted at the barrel ...

                  There's an old adage, "don't believe everything you read on the internet".
                  You can watch with your own eyes , no need to read anything , its all there in living colors , if you have what it takes to actually watch .

                  And you just doubled down on the "lazy" insult ?
                  What do you call a person who thinks clicking on links is to much work ?

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:34:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  No need to repost the diary. It was weak. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:11:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you know PavePusher ? (0+ / 0-)

                  Here is his comment from that "weak" diary .

                  Well, I stand corrected. (7+ / 0-)

                  Looks like one could still get some reasonable accuracy from those accesories.  Thank you for posting some useful information.  

                  I'll have to add that to my "Possible Purchase" list.

                  by PavePusher on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:11:28 PM PDT

                  He also claims "service".
                   I've been in the USAF for 22 years.... (8+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                      KVoimakas, meagert, oldpunk, Otteray Scribe, kestrel9000, theatre goon, ancblu, theboz

                  and I've never hear the term in relation to any issue weapon.

                  And I've spent half my career in Special Ops.  Never heard any operators use it either.

                  Weird, huh?

                  What, by the way, does "assault weapon" mean for you?  You never did go into specifics....

                  by PavePusher on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:20:53 PM PST

                  .......................................................

                  My Pops is the one who first taught me about guns .
                  He was a volunteer for WW-2 .
                  The government sent him to gunnery school
                  as well as flight engineering school .
                  He was a top turret gunner in B-24s . Ma Duce .
                  He flew all his missions and was there on Okinawa at the very end .

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:51:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  So been a jerk long? (0+ / 0-)

              Or is this a recently added personality  trait.

              Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?

              by jsfox on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:20:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  There's at least one video of somebody (0+ / 0-)

            bump-firing a semi-auto handgun, too:

            Moderation in most things.

            by billmosby on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 10:21:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Officers Are Useless in a Firefight (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annecros, freerad

        Actually, they are pretty useless most of the time except for doing paperwork.

        And the main thing these twerps shooting up schools and theaters have going for them is THEY ARE UNOPPOSED. All the posturing in front of a mirror they do will not prepare them for one committed, capable armed opponent.

        No matter what firearm that opponent is armed with.

        Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

        by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:01:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Indy, Indy, Indy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1

        IF you try that "Bump Fire" crap into a "crowd" what you'll end up with is one or two people with a bunch of bullets in them. Mass killers of the Sandy Hook type don't do that, never have. They select individual targets, one at a time, shoot that one once or twice, then move to another target. In the Sandy Hook case it appears he then went back and reshot most of the kids a final time for whatever reason. I didtinctly remember the live coverage of Columbine, listening to the easily discernible individual shots while screaming at the TV "Get your asses in there" in reference to the fucking cops standing around outside listening too. Still inexcusable.

        Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

        by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:42:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not nonsense, but I would agree that had a (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1, Weezerr1, freerad

      a retired police officer, armed with a service revolver, been on scene at Sandy Hook, some of those innocent lives would have been saved.

      That said, the diarist's analysis of the Bushmaster's capabilities does have some merit, and is informative for readers not familiar with weapons.  

      Agree with your point about Fort Hood though.  There is more gun control on a military installation then you'll find in Mayor Bloomberg's New York City.  The difference being in New York City there are lots of bad guys with guns, whereas on that fateful day at Fort Hood, it only took one bad guy, and he was bent on mass mayhem.

      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

      by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:37:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Interesting points you raise.... (7+ / 0-)

      "At Fort Hood the troops don't walk around armed, I happened to have been stationed there twice. Unless they are in the field their weapons are secured in the arms room, and when they ARE in the field they are strictly prohibited from having live ammo. The ONLY time weapons and live ammo come together at Hood are on a range, under close supervision."

      I wonder if there is some reason for all of that?

      I wonder why Joe Sixpack should be seen as more reliable when carrying around his personal weapon?

      When banjos are outlawed, only outlaws will have banjos.

      by Bisbonian on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:47:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What a bunch of crap. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SuetheRedWA, Sandino

      The diary is righteous.

      Do you remember that case from 1997 in California where some extremely heavily armed bank robbers got into a firefight with police?

      That's called the North Hollywood Shootout.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      The shooters came close to overwhelming the police, and before they were killed, 11 police officers and 7 civilians were wounded.  More than 2,000 rounds were filed.  The shooters had automatic assault rifles with giant drum magazines and were wearing body armor.

      A shooter or two like that is definitely likely to defeat a single retired police officer with a revolver.

      So your comment is a fail.

    •  When is the NRA going to notice? (0+ / 0-)

      That weapons and ammo are not allowed in the barracks and various military installations.

    •  Base Civilian Police and Military Police (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Weezerr1

      Aren't they armed?

      •  Yes, they are. I think that (0+ / 0-)

        the diarist imagined that there were plenty of armed people on the base at the time of the massacre at Fort Hood, and Bakulum King corrected him.

        Yes, there are armed police at Fort Hood, as there were armed police in Newtown.

        Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

        by cks175 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 09:01:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Except in Aurora, that dark theatre was... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, Weezerr1

      ...filled with tear gas and a panicked crowd trying to escape. Such chaos adds a good deal of chance to even an expert's ability to take out a moving target. Police officers routinely fire full magazines at moving targets without once hitting them.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 11:27:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Chief (0+ / 0-)

      I assure you that I represented my father's qualifications accurately. I inherited his badges, marksmanships medals and his chrome-plated 1910 Colt Police issue .38. Mom had had it chrome-plated as a gift. He would have never done that. He used the gun during a sharp-shooter challenge to advance his rank. He had to blacken the sights to keep the glare down. His marksmanship was so accurate that he won the challenge and was made a sergeant. Before Dad retired he advanced to lieutenant and was eventually made captain and then chief.

    •  Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Chief (0+ / 0-)

      I assure you I represented my father's qualifications accurately.  I inherited his badges and his marksmanship medals, as well as, his chrome-plated 1910 department issued Colt .38. My mom had it chrome-plated as a gift. Dad would have never done that. His buddies kidded him and called him General Patton. He had to blacken the sights with shoe polish to cut down the glare. He used it during a sharp shooting challenge to advance as a Sergeant. He won! Through the course of Dad's career he won many medals. He advanced to Lieutenant, then to Captain and eventually was made Chief of Police. I failed to mention that during WWII he brought home a German Lugar.  His marksmanship helped him obtain the pistol. You can fill in the rest of the story as to how he got it.

  •  Weezerr1 - engage with our community (6+ / 0-)

    You are newbie and off to a start that will label you as a HIT AND RUN author, someone who posts diaries here but does not engage our community. Rather than publishing so many diaries it is much more important to engage with our community. One of your diaries was very well received, had lots of RECs and 45 comments, but not a single comment from you. No engagement in the comment section, no answering the questions people asked, nothing. So far your only comments are the tip jars for your diaries. I would encourage you to stop posting diaries and write a few hundred comments in the diaries of other authors. At that point you will have some limited engagement with this site. In any event you have an affirmative duty to monitor your diaries and to engage with the people who leave comments.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:38:24 PM PST

  •  The element of surprise (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karl Rover, Timaeus, Sandino

    when a person is armed with a weapon like this makes any defense improbable at best, even if you are armed similarly.

    Especially when the perpetrator is prepared to die in the attempt, we're simply looking at another 'arms race' that no one would ever win.

    This is what the NRA hopes for, an 'arms race', to sell more yet more guns. Innocent people caught in the middle of this arm's race would pay the price, as they always do.

    With 300M guns in circulation, it's sort of like shutting the barn door after the horse got out, but taking the profit motive out of any sale of firearms or ammunition might be a good place to start dismembering cult of these death manufacturers.

     

    Republicans totally abandoned conservatism in the 1980s ..

    by shpilk on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:44:58 PM PST

  •  has anyone asked.. (4+ / 0-)

    those RETIRED Police Officers if they're interested in standing around a school all day, at most likely crappy pay, and occasionally having an ambush by some psycho with an assault rifle?

    Naw, what will happen is that Wackenhut rent-a-cops or Blackwater mercenaries will be in the schools, harrassing students and teachers.

    The "cure" is just a different disease. The real cure is what the President started today, only more is needed.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:48:46 PM PST

    •  Will Work For Food! (0+ / 0-)

      Just like teachers, police officers and fire fighters for that matter are all poorly paid. Most teachers have second jobs as do police officers and fire fighters. There will probably be some off duty officers looking to make an extra buck. They often work in shifts and might be able to stand guard at a school one day a week.

  •  What's the Breakdown on Shootings At Schools? (0+ / 0-)

    Are they mostly these causeless student massacres, or are many of them one-on-one (or two) because of grievances?

    I'd think that the situation we're mostly trying to control might influence the discussion. Maybe not.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:49:25 PM PST

  •  Thank you for raising some interesting points. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Weezerr1

    When I heard Mr. LaPierre's solution to Sandy Hook, I doubted he'd every spent any time in an elementary school. The logistics of most school days involve large groups of people moving around a large building, including in and out of it at recess and the beginning and end of the school day. Reducing the threat from rapid fire capability, as President Obama seeks to do, seems a more workable and educationally sound solution.  I'd rather not teach students how to put on a flak jacket for recess, or run in a zigzag pattern on their way to the bus home.

    •  Kindergarten (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tkirkland, Sandino

      Have you heard production has started on bullet proof backpacks for kids? As a kindergarten teacher I know that most backpacks are stored in hallway cubbies during the school day.  I also question how an armed guard can be expected to cover so much ground? During the run of the mill school day, kids are in classrooms, the library, cafeteria and hallways.  They are in the bathrooms and in P.E. and last but not least; they are on the playground. Imagine what an assault weapon could do when the entire student population is on the playground.  I shutter to think.

  •  Handguns vs. rifles (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Weezerr1, Meteor Blades, Sandino

    There was an infamous incident when the FBI tried to arrest a pair of seriously rotten people. The FBI outnumbered them four to one. The bad guys were not wearing body armor. The FBI had the initiative and the bad guys had not planned the confrontation. A school guard would not have these advantages.

    The results were horrible: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    A wounded agent did end the fight using a handgun, eventually, but it was a near thing.

    A retired officer with a handgun might be enough to make a mass murderer choose an easier target. Hoping for him or her to win a gunfight is desperation talking.

    The NRA recommendation is close to bonkers.

  •  I dunno, Dogs are fuzzy: a retired officer (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shigeru, Meteor Blades, Weezerr1, freerad

    has a certain knowledge base. One familiar with his campus and its community, rather than hostile to them, has more advantages.

     But I'm inclined to think a resource officer should be in good training and physical shape, and able to respond quickly in an emergency -- many of which, I think, will fall into the "rescue" category rather than the "return fire" category.

    Community policing should make a comeback. We ought not sacrifice public safety to the false gods of tax cuts.

    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 08:19:18 PM PST

    •  Well said! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1

      My Dad started his career as a police officer walking a beat. He knew everybody on the streets and all the store owners.  He shook shop doors at night and by day he provided a presence.  It was good for security but also it was good for community morale and attitudes toward the Force.

  •  RIP Richard Myers (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for your leadership, Richard. We are on it!  We have picked up the banner. Your colors wave proudly, before your troops.

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