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I have a friend who is brilliant, talented, highly creative.
We usually agree on most things even political issues.
He recently launched a Facebook page called Molon Labe.
Loosely translated as used by the NRA crowd and the Patriot Movement it means:
"Come and take them."
It comes from the Spartans' response to Xerxes' merciful offer to let them live if they laid down their weapons and surrendered.
They didn't.
They said: "Molon Labe!"
They all were then slaughtered by the Persians.
The last seems to be lost on my friend and his supporters.
They seem to think the Spartans were heroes for fighting for a lost cause and imagining they were fighting for a noble one.
updated to:
They seem to think they are like the Spartans.
They seem to think they too are fighting against all odds for a noble cause.

They seem to think they are fighting for Freedom and against Government Oppression and Totalitarianism.

When I told them they were enabling Fascism they thought I was crazy.

Here is what I wrote to him in response (straight off the top of my head):

“When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and waving a Bible.”
and shouting Molon Labe!

The current Fascists aka the Oligarchy of Militarists, Corporatists, Plutocrats, and Banksters want to overthrow our Legitimate Representative Democratic State in which the public still has an illusion of power and a voice, through voting, and thus still a tiny possibility of exerting some control and power and regulation over them and their profits.

They wish to instead install a totalitarian authoritarian Right Wing regime that would grossly favor their interests.

To accomplish this they need to first discredit our current system.

They do that by accusing it of exactly that which they intend to install.

And simultaneously corrupting it by every means possible...bribery, extortion, redistricting, voter suppression, fraud, etc.

They do it by creating an incessant drumbeat of propaganda and conspiracy theories that the current government is corrupt, is not serving the people, has been infiltrated by a mysterious and hard to identify “other” such as Communists, Socialists, Liberals, Progressives, ACORN, George Soros, New Black Panthers, Muslims, Terrorists, Unionists, welfare chiselers, the 47%, etc. etc.

The message is basically: “All of the previous are bound and determined to take away your rights and freedoms. This is going to happen any second now! Be Prepared! Fight Them! Protect YOUR Freedom and YOUR Guns!!!”

They create a massive media propaganda machine to deliver this message over and over no matter what actually happens or what the reality of events are.

They create deep division and outrage over “wedge issues” such as: abortion, gun control, welfare, collective bargaining, government bail outs, imaginary wars on Christmas and "Christian Values," etc. with “The Government” always held up as the target of all blame and evil.

"The Government" represented in this case by the scary black man with the funny foreign name, Barack Hussein Obama and backed by his secret hordes of socialist commie leftist fascists of course. They are everywhere! Be Afraid!!!

They then wait for a flashpoint event such as New Oppressive Gun Laws!!!

(In this case, lucky for them, ‘forced’ on the country by widespread popular demand in response to a national tragedy of epic proportions, the murder of 20 children, you know like Democracy is supposed to function.)

Horrors! It’s Oppression! Its Here! they scream far and wide, and this event is blamed once again on Obama and “The Government."

Then they point to the event and say “See we told you so, we told you’d they’d take your guns, now do you believe us? Go get 'em loyal Patriots! Fight, Fight, Fight For Freedom.” (Um, you don't mind if we just sit over here and watch do you? this suit cost a $1000 bucks, don't want to get any blood on it. I'm a job creator.)

(If such an event doesn't arrive as result of all the fear and rage they deliberately create through corrupting/obstructing the government from functioning and sabotaging the economy and increasing stress on the populace to the breaking point, they simply create one 'cough' Reichstag Fire).

They thus rally support around the cause in the name of Patriotism and Defense of Freedom! (this is where your Molon Labe! fits in) to support any possible violence or other action they have planned to seize control of the current legitimate government and depose it.

This will typically be a Military Coup (which is my guess this time if they’ve got enough support embedded among the top brass and ranks and are stupid and/or crazy enough to try it).

Other possibilities include getting the Red States controlled by Republican governments en masse refusing to enforce or allow Federal Authority and using the state and private militias to resist. Maybe even forming a new Confederacy...or some other means yet to be seen.

Once the Coup is successful they then hold mock trials for “Treason” and execute publicly any of the former government leaders they can get their hands on.

We Got The BAD Guys! Yeah for Us! We Are The Champions!

They also start a purge and search for more hidden supporters of the “other” causing panic and fear and terror and unquestioning obedience among the populace, rounding up and incarcerating 100,000s in the process. (I will be in Canada I hope by this time.)

Turn in your neighbor, your mom, your little sister, get a cool uniform and a free gun! Fun! Fun! Fun!

This naturally results in both a longing for order and a strong and powerful police state as well as fervent allegiance to the new “Protector” State, aka “The Homeland” aka “The Fatherland” as it quickly takes total control of all aspects of society.

Voila! Fascism.

All in the name of Patriotism and Freedom.

History repeats itself for the umpteenth time.

The instruction manual is well worn and practiced.

The same guys who created Pinochet in Chile, D'Aubuisson in El Salvador, The Contras in Nicaraugua, The Shah’s Iran, so many more, have this down to a science.

Step by step.

Your ‘Molon Labe’ aka ‘Patriotic Revolution Against Authoritarian Oppression’ will get you just what you feared.

Have a nice Facism, my dear Friend.

========

Now one hopes I'm wrong more than me. But this IS the playbook. Right?
I wrote this from memory of lived history.
Whether it will happen here or not is anyone's guess.
But I'm damn sure that playing Patriot and shouting "Moulon Labe!" at the Feds if they're crazy enough to try to disarm the militias is not going to help restore Freedom.

What do Kossacks think?

9:37 PM PT: correction: where I said "lost cause" above, I did not mean the war against Xerxes. a careless comment unclear and clouding the debate. I meant to suggest simply that they the Spartans who fought so valiantly were doomed, as a commmenter points out, it was a suicide mission. that was the lost cause I meant. they had no chance of coming out of it alive themselves. bad choice of words. I did not intend to refer to the overall war or what was at stake.

9:48 PM PT: correction part 2: looked at it again. was moving too fast and really messed this up completely: "They seem to think the Spartans were heroes for fighting for a lost cause and imagining they were fighting for a noble one."

looks like I accidentally conflated two ideas I had in my head or something. Just delete it from your mind.

I can't remember what I meant to say, but I do admit it was not a lost cause and they were noble to do what they did for their country.

but my point was: the Patriot militias bear no resemblance to Spartans or their cause, nor do any other modern day would be Patriots and co-opting the slogan is inappropriate misleading bullshit


Originally posted to srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 05:40 PM PST.

Also republished by Anti-Capitalist Chat.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, Smoh, JayRaye, dorkenergy

    no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

    by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 05:40:23 PM PST

  •  Why are some gun people so afraid that they will (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh, jan4insight

    have their guns taken from them?  They say they will kill us first.  How strange the people with the fire power are the most afraid of the government.  How sorry I am for them because their guns have not made them feel safe, only blood thirsty.  Perhaps they should try living gun free to experience life without these killing devises.  They seem to have lost their capacity to value their own human vulnerabiltiy and prize it for what it is, the shield of the mighty after all is said and done many Americans live gun free.

  •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    Guns, like abortion, are a cultural wedge issue. Yes, these wedge issues can be used to whip people into a frenzy and justify just about any action.

    The NRA is doing this right now to the pro-gun side.

    The anti-gun side, meanwhile, is equating gun owners with serial killers and dishonestly claiming that an assault weapons ban is somehow not a gun ban.

    Neal Pollack calls this part of a cold civil war. I'm inclined to agree. Unfortunately, sanity is hard to come by right now, so my role in it is to lay relatively low and hope things cool down before they blow up.

    ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
    My Blog
    My wife's woodblock prints

    by maxomai on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 05:56:58 PM PST

    •  um, no they're not IMHO (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, Sharon Wraight
      The anti-gun side, meanwhile, is equating gun owners with serial killers and dishonestly claiming that an assault weapons ban is somehow not a gun ban.
      they're saying lets make assault weapons harder to obtain and see if that cuts down gun violence.

      but I do agree with the idea of a cold civil war. (will read the link thanks)
      that is the purpose of wedge issues, to divide and conquer.

      don't know either if this one -guns control- will make it hot.

      but this article is about gun control.

      its about mistaken ideas of what fighting for freedom is.

      and being sure which side your fighting for.

      me I already built a cabin in Canada, just wrapping up life here, hope it doesn't blow up in the next 3 months.

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:10:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know what side I'm fighting for (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hangpilot

        I'm in a little island in the middle.

        I like everything that Obama has proposed except for AWB and the magazine ban. And I can't stand either one of those. Making them impossible to purchase, which is what is being proposed, is a ban. You can't spin that any other way except by denying it exists.

        Nor do I believe these bans will have anywhere near the impact on gun violence of the anti-trafficking proposals. The trafficking proposals address handgun violence, which has been the big issue all along. These proposals shut off the flow of handguns into the wrong hands without going overboard.

        I do believe that the AWB and magazine bans have the potential to make the cold war hot, although I wouldn't give it good odds.

        ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
        My Blog
        My wife's woodblock prints

        by maxomai on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:18:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  damn, no article at the link: cold civil war (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye

          tricked me...good meme tho.

          and yep its a ban. don't dispute that.

          you may be right it may not work.

          and yep the blowback on the far right might make the cold war hot. but maybe only if the feds are stupid enough to play into their hands and try to go take them and we get a super Waco or something.

          Canada. out of line of fire if the shooting starts.

          so where is that island? does it have good surf? women? can I come visit in the winter?

          no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

          by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:27:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  damn! meant its NOT about gun control (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JayRaye, dorkenergy

        where did that NOT go in the bold sentence.
        proofread it 3 times too.

        no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

        by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:20:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Is an RPG ban an "arms ban"? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 07:29:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes people take a stand (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz, JayRaye

    ...where life is no longer worth living without the principles they hold dear.

    Consider our soldiers.

    Or, Aaron Swartz, for that matter.



    Denial is a drug.

    by Pluto on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:04:51 PM PST

    •  my friend is also reacting to Aaron Swartz (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pluto, Smoh, JayRaye, wenchacha

      and the blaming the government thing is coming out of that too.
      that's a tough one. since it looks that way doesn't it?

      but I wonder who had a dog in the fight over internet freedom? who's been trying to shut it down for the past few years? who's been trying to do that in order to silence the last means of communication amongst those who might oppose them ~the oligarchy~ cough~ cough~
      who might use it to rally opposition as unlikely as that might be?

      "they" don't like Daily Kos much, or Media Matters, or MoveOn.org or...

      He is also a strong military supporter with many friends who served and are serving.
      I respect that.
      those guys have been used too. Iraq, Afghanistan...
      my high school advisor's son, a SEAL commander in Afghanistan just committed suicide. heartbreaking. one wonders if he couldn't do what he'd been asked to do anymore...

      and in my day, Viet Nam

      same bad guys.

      that's who we need to focus on.
      we need to somehow get them out of OUR government and make it OUR government again.
      not play into their hands by fighting to tear it down,
      just so they can waltz in take full control.

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:19:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wanted to tell you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srfRantz, JayRaye

        ...your first Diary is one of the best I've ever read here.

        You should put it through again sometime as a new Diary. Leave out the Mill play, beyond the first mention.

        It contains an important piece of human code.



        Denial is a drug.

        by Pluto on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:28:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  thank you. I did move the play to its own diary (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, Smoh, JayRaye, dorkenergy

          with the intro as a stand alone diary, but that was after it'd already hit the rec list.

          didn't know I could republish. I'll wait a little bit tho.

          maybe after I've put some more installments up.

          you been reading the play installments?

          the last one has some insights into the local 'gun culture'

          but HEY EVERYONE THIS CURRENT DIARY ISN'T ABOUT GUNS OR GUN CONTROL.

          sorry I think that needs to go in a new comment.

          I think this diary is much better IMHO.

          I'm still finding my voice here.

          but thanks for the support.

          I'll keep trying.

          no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

          by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:33:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I've always told the wingnuts that the guns will (6+ / 0-)

    be taken away by the right wingers to keep the Liberals from getting their hands on them, in the name of keeping people safe from terrorism.

    That's how it starts.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:21:40 PM PST

  •  Xerxes lost that war. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz

    The Spartans were betrayed at Thermopylae.

    •  Yup (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye

      The Spartans lost their 300 or so hoplites and took 20k Persian soldiers with them. They bought time for the Athenians and other city-states to pack up and run before their cities were sacked.

      History!

      ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
      My Blog
      My wife's woodblock prints

      by maxomai on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:28:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes I know (0+ / 0-)

        History.

        so does the history of that war have anything to do with Patriot militias standing up to some potential (and as I said stupid if they try it) Federal agent attempt to seize a cache of banned assault weapons somewhere.

        The Branch Davidians didn't win that war in Waco.

        no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

        by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:38:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  True that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy

          The Branch Davidians didn't win that war in Waco.

          But imagine they had to do that block by block.

          ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
          My Blog
          My wife's woodblock prints

          by maxomai on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:49:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and who will that buy time for to get away? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JayRaye

            the entire population of America?

            and what would that gain anyone?
            would it gain the valiant resistors their precious freedom?
            would it gain anyone at all any kind of freedom?
            would it gain America back its lost innocence?
            would it bring jobs back from China?
            would it make all girls virgins again?

            ok I'm getting giddy. and this getting pointless.

            can we get back to the point of my diary now?

            know who you're fighting. and why. be sure they're the enemy. and the enemy is not you.

            no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

            by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 07:41:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  yes I know (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, JayRaye, Pluto

      they still all were slaughtered.

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 06:29:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Only the Three Hundred. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pluto

        By fighting to the end they saved Sparta and bought the citizens of Athens time to get away.

        •  yes, I know that. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye, dorkenergy

          as I commented above, does that have anything to do with co-opting that phrase of defiance, just to stir up the Patriot Militias, and anyone else with a cache of automatic weapons to armed resistance should the Federal Agencies try to confiscate those weapons? (which I think would be stupid as well.)

          the population of America isn't going to escape anywhere while the Corporatist/Fascists sack the country oops they already have! in the wake of whatever chaos, violence or inevitable martial law results from such "bravery."

          so they can then come back and throw them out and restore Truth Justice and the American Way!!!

          so who will the militias and patriotic gun owners be buying time for? the only thing they'll do is give cover to the Fascists to take control and overthrow our current government...such as it is.

          do you think that there is any chance in hell that after any rebellion that occurs by whatever forces, if by any chance they were to succeed against all odds, that anything other than a police state would result?

          Restoration of Freedom? Democracy?

          you see these beans I have here? they are magic beans. if you hold them tight and close your eyes you can make all your wishes come true!

          and this is not a thread about wars, or courage, or warrior ethos, or standing up, or patriotism, or taking away guns, its about being conned into fighting largely imaginary straw men only to help create exactly what you are afraid of.

          no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

          by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 07:33:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Everyone needs to read about (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz, side pocket

    Salvador Allende and the Pinochet coup.

    What we are hearing from the raving right wing these days reminds me of that history. I might argue that a right-wing authoritarian form of government is what they are after rather than fascism, but clearly they are up to something, and not for our benefit.

    American Democracy, such as it is, will last only as long as we keep the far right wing of the ruling class and their poor white racists allies in check. Please understand, I am not calling all poor whites racist.

    But there they are, the ones that give their loyalty to  Wealth and Privilege rather than to the multi-ethnic working class, and when their masters whistle, the dogs do bark.

    WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For Jan: USW Local Mourns Fallen Brother

    by JayRaye on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 07:15:37 PM PST

  •  I wish we were as powerful as RW thinks we are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz

    Some progressive juggernaut rolling over the country destroying everything conservatives know and love and leaving behind a beautiful and gentle society of liberalism triumphant forever.

    Something's wrong when the bad guys are the utopian ones.

    by Visceral on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 07:55:48 PM PST

  •  Pronunciation key... (0+ / 0-)

    You can read of the entire concept, brilliantly elucidated, here:
    http://madogre.com/...
    By the way, the way to say it is thus: Imagine the son of a French father and a fiercely-ethnic, Irish mother...  "Malone LaVeigh".
    Double points would accrue, I should think, for anyone who could pull-off a successful, pro-wrestling career, using this as your alias.
    Also, as I recall, "Cookie", on the old TV series, "Rawhide", used to yell; "Molon Labe!" whenever the meal being served was made up of individual items like: Rocky-mountain oysters... eggs or Cookie's, unforgettable raspberry-buttermilk scones...  or cookies.
    Also, the guy who ran the salad bar for him was named Malone LaVeigh, as I recall.
    I just envision the term as: "Moron Labia" so I don't have to worry about pronunciation.
    Final humorous note:
    If you follow the link that The Ogre provided to clarify "molon labe", you'll find the proper pronunciation.
    It's the same as the one he presents but with no ethnic baggage.
    Let's check his out.
    "LaVeigh". One word, two distinct capital-letters and a second syllable carrying the dread stamp of the: "ei" or "ie" conundrum.
    Given the "gh" I'm guessing it falls in the jurisdiction of: "i-before-e-except-after...".
    This is what clarification looks like to this crowd.

    "And each simple wreck In the way-path of might Shall yet be a rock In the temple of Right" Fr. Abram Joseph Ryan

    by crazy old coot on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 08:05:39 PM PST

    •  Ancient vs. modern pronunciation of beta (0+ / 0-)

      The ancient pronunciation of beta is the same as our letter b, the v pronunciation is modern greek. Molon labe being Ancient Greek, specifically Doric as I recall, the proper pronunciation for beta is indeed the same as b and not v.

      The book Vox Graecae covers this in more detail, but IMO it makes for a fairly dense read.

  •  For the record, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz, dorkenergy

    Thermopylae was more or less a suicide mission by design.  Its primary purpose was to delay the Persians in a place where their advantage in numbers would be largely neutralized by the lay of the land until the rest of the Greek city-states could mobilize.  Subsequent engagements, including Themistocles' victory over the Persian fleet at Salamis and the decisive Greek victory at Plataea, enabled the Greeks to drive the Persians from the western world and deal Xerxes the same humiliation his father, Darius, had endured at the Battle of Marathon a decade earlier.

    Had Greece not stood her ground, there is little to no chance that what we call the golden age of Classical civilization would ever have occurred.  No Plato's Republic, no democracy, no poems of Sappho, none of it.  This would be a very different world today.  You wrote that the Spartans were fighting for a lost cause.  This is absolutely not true; they were fighting to save Greece from being absorbed into the Persian Empire, and in that, they were both noble and successful, even if they did not live to enjoy the fruits of the final victory.  But about ten years after the Persian defeat, a child named Socrates was born.  It's hard to say how different his life might have been had Athens been a vassal state to the Persian king.

    Now, all of that said, I agree with you that the gun nuts equating themselves with the Spartans and their allies who fell at Thermopylae are absolutely full of it, and laughably so.  But you make the same mistake in reverse by suggesting that those Greeks were somehow on the same level as our gun nuts, and that they would have been smart to just surrender to Xerxes.  There is no meaningful comparison between our gun control debate and the ancient Greeks; they are not Spartans and Obama is not Xerxes.  I have friends who like to twist history like this, and I've found it's better not to even dignify that game by playing along.

    "Forecast for tomorrow? A few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" -Stewie Griffin

    by quillsinister on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 08:38:53 PM PST

    •  that is actually the point I was trying to make (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dorkenergy, quillsinister

      this one

      There is no meaningful comparison between our gun control debate and the ancient Greeks; they are not Spartans and Obama is not Xerxes.
      thanks for catching my careless comment meant to suggest simply that they the Spartans who fought so valiantly were doomed, as you said a suicide mission. that was the lost cause I meant. they had no chance of coming out of it alive themselves. bad choice of words. did not intend to refer to the overall war or what was at stake.

      I will make a note in my OP

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 09:34:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the clarification. :-) NT (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srfRantz

        "Forecast for tomorrow? A few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" -Stewie Griffin

        by quillsinister on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 03:45:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you da man. (0+ / 0-)

          gracias.

          DKos is good that way. and I like it.

          I f'cked up. I was on a roll. a fevered mission to write out a thought I had. sometimes I type the first part of a sentence and then finish it with the second half of the sentence I was planning to type next. I usually have to proof 16 times, cause my mind races ahead to composing what I'm planning to change something I caught to, while I'm still reading the next thing, so I miss the next thing and catch it on the next read through. sometimes. not always.

          maybe I am nuts.

          is this a thing? not dyslexia, but some other thing?

          no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

          by srfRantz on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 06:41:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Μολων λαβε (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dorkenergy

    I wanted to mention that "come and take them" isn't a loose translation, it's what the phrase means. You might be able to shoe-horn into a better form as "in coming, take them". Molon is a participle, and English doesn't use participles in quite the same way Ancient Greek does. Labe is an aorist imperative, the aorist refers to a simple action as opposed to something that is ongoing.

    There's also a pretty big gap between Leonidas and those who are freaking out about gun control today. Leonidas represented the Spartan government. This wasn't a spunky band of revolutionaries fighting their own government, this was a well-trained and coordinated military fighting for the state.

  •  now can we PLEASE have a discussion on the topic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dorkenergy

    raised by my diary?

    is any possible invocation of "Molon Labe" in today's political environment anything other than an attempt to co-opt the Spartans' heroism to encourage the faux patriotic delusions of the Patriot Militias who have adopted it as their rallying cry?

    would such an action of rebellion, armed resistance to an actual attempt to confiscate weapons, serve any constructive purpose at all?

    or will it serve, if successful in instigating an actual coup and ouster of the current regime (unlikely as that may be, but to which outcome my friend and his supporters apparently seem to cling) to complete a key piece in the standard timeline of a Fascist takeover?

    and is it specifically designed to be just that piece?
    by whomever is backing the 'vast right wing propaganda machine' that cooks this stuff up, has wound these nuts up for decades, and funded and armed them, and thinks they can pull this off?

    or will a successfull Right Wing rebellion against our truly oppressive and corrupt government result in a new and glorious democratically restored bastion of freedom and rainbows?

    or am I the one divorced from reality as my friend claims?

    no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

    by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:11:57 PM PST

    •  From GW Bush's "heart"-patting to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      srfRantz

      "Molon Labe", these strike deep, faux chords.

      The "whomever is backing" is been clear -- it's our "Heritage" Foundation</>.

      Security (from foreigners) and protection (from the domestics aka serfs).

      The form of government(s) or lack thereof is not as important -- for Peterson (no social security), the Kochs (no environmental security), and the Waltons (no job security) -- as the goal in the prior sentence.

      We might not know how this play will unfold. But we know who is pulling the strings, and why.

      United We Understand

      by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:35:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  typos (0+ / 0-)

        The "whomever is backing" has been clear -- it's our (aptly-name) "Heritage" Foundation.

        United We Understand

        by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:36:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  yeah I know, didn't want to go there (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dorkenergy

        here.

        with all the other digressions.

        this one trying to keep dedicated to showing the How

        then on to the Who

        no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

        by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:44:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Phrasing it that way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          srfRantz

          The "How" focus brings to mind some "systems-speak".

          The dynamics are complex and it's important to go through the simulations.

          That will help foster appreciation of the complexity.

          And that is helpful context to bring everyone into the discussion so they can then learn who controls the levers and, then, how we can change that.

          United We Understand

          by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 11:00:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Your paras, in this wonderful diary: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srfRantz, JayRaye
    The current Fascists aka the Oligarchy of Militarists, Corporatists, Plutocrats, and Banksters

    … corrupting it by every means possible...

    They create a massive media propaganda machine to deliver this message over and over

    include in them, what might at last, be the key uniting focus for wide swaths -- not just Progressives.

    Mr. Potter sucks. Everybody knows that.

    The Banksters control the levers.

    Time to break the myths that give them that leverage.

    With Mr. Potter de-myth-stified and vanquished, the dam will crack, and we can then move on to daylight the other issues.

    That's my thesis.

    e MMT unum.

    United We Understand

    by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:12:00 PM PST

    •  I can count on your support for my overall thesis (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dorkenergy, JayRaye

      then?

      thanks old friend.

      Seriously am I the one losing my grip on reality as I am being told by these people?

      I love this guy. really do. I don't know what he's going for with this Molon Lobe thing other than throwing in with the Patriot RWingnuts who have raised it as their rallying cry.

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:16:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're right that it feels like (0+ / 0-)

        Germany in the '30s.

        These are turbulent times.

        And the turbulence generates foam.

        Wish I was wiser.

        United We Understand

        by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 11:11:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srfRantz
        is any possible invocation of "Molon Labe" in today's political environment anything other than an attempt to co-opt the Spartans' heroism to encourage the faux patriotic delusions of the Patriot Militias who have adopted it as their rallying cry?
        is spot on.

        Whether the rest of the dynamics will play out in any of the ways you indicate, I haven't a clue.

        But it's at least a distraction that serves "their" higher purposes, as we both recognize.

        United We Understand

        by dorkenergy on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 11:45:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  thank you for confirming that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dorkenergy

          that was the contention I held that my friend who put the page on facebook titled Molon Labe and posted a bunch of articles on freedom and standing tall etc. disputed. saying I'd completely lost touch with reality. adamant that wasn't what he was doing at all. well maybe, but if he's doing something else, what? and why use this slogan? it associates him with nuts.

          I didn't think I'd gone nuts. I even looked it up in wikipedia. and sent the quote to him. the slogan is clearly identified with the Patriot Movement and used by them as a rallying cry (to commit treason). he still denied it. I'm at a loss. I really upset him and he's a very dear friend. I can't sleep which is why I'm still here at 4:40 am and still rambling on about this.

          this movement is treason. without any doubt. I hate to see him associated with something even resembling it even if he has other and very good intentions.

          couldn't even get him, or anyone here for that matter, other than you, to address how that all fits into the overall standard well-documented blueprint to achieve the coup and enable Fascism/RW Dictatorship. and is thus extremely dangerous. which is the real crux of the matter.

          no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

          by srfRantz on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 01:44:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe try this tack (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            srfRantz

            [starting with some preliminaries]

            Prompted by your diary, I glanced through the dKos "Recommended Diaries" list and came across The Baculum King's "The Stunning Ignorance of Kossacks About Guns" where the author, after establishing these bona fides:

            I am qualified on this subject as follows: I owned guns continuously from the time I was 8 until I was past 50 , got training from my Father, the Boy Scouts, Army Basic Training, the Unit Armorer's Course at Fort Hood, and the Army Sniper School at Fort Benning. I have fired something well over a million rounds, and as many as 10,000 in a day.
            says, quite matter-of-factly:
            The first thing to understand about guns is that almost NO categorical statements are true; there is an exception to EVERYTHING.
            Well, then, how about this statement as a test of that diarist's claim:
            With the "exception" of personally-manufactured guns, would it reasonable to say that all guns are sold for money? that they are made by businesses? that many of those businesses are of significant size? that those businesses have, as businesses, more political influence than people?
            Is that statement true?

            I remembered seeing that the NRA had voiced its opposition to an "Arms Trade Treaty". Wayne LaPierre, appearing before the UN last July, said:

            Mr. President, thank you for this brief opportunity to address this conference.  I am Wayne LaPierre and for 21 years now, I have served as Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association of America.

            The NRA is the largest and most active firearms rights organization in the world, with four million members who represent 100 million law-abiding Americans who own firearms.

            On behalf of those 100 million American gun owners, I am here to announce NRA’s strong opposition to anti-freedom policies that disregard American citizens’ right to self-defense.

            No foreign influence has jurisdiction over the freedoms our Founding Fathers guaranteed to us.

            We will not stand idly by while international organizations, whether state-based or stateless, attempt to undermine the fundamental liberties that our men and women in uniform have fought so bravely to preserve – and on which our entire American system of government is based.

            For six years, the NRA has closely monitored this effort for an Arms Trade Treaty.

            We have watched with increasing concern and, one year ago, I delivered to the Preparatory Committee our objections to including civilian arms in the ATT.  I said then … and I will repeat now … that the only way to address NRA’s objections is to simply and completely remove civilian firearms from the scope of the treaty. … [emphasis added]

            What are "civilian firearms"? A google search for
            define:"civilian firearms"
            does not offer a definition for the term. (None of its sources, the "Free Dictionary", Answers.com, Reference.com, or Wikipedia have an entry for it.)

            To your friend, does "civilian firearms" mean "firearms owned by civilians" or does it distinguish a particular type or characteristic of firearm or than ownership?

            It might be curious to get an answer to that before proceeding to the below.

            LaPierre, at the end of his address to the UN, states:

            On behalf of all NRA members and American gun owners, we are here to announce that we will not tolerate any attack – from any entity or organization whatsoever – on our Constitution or our fundamental, individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms. [emphasis added]
            That seems to quite clearly indicate the NRA defines "civilian firearms" solely on the basis of ownership.

            Your friend might or might not have stated similarly.

            It's just an interesting question, and one that seems to have no established, broadly recognized (much less "standardized") definition.

            And, then, one might ask, who benefits more from the lack of any distinction of firearms on any basis other than ownership.

            Is it "individuals" or is it "corporations"?

            [extended pause in conversation]

            You might start with that.

            United We Understand

            by dorkenergy on Sat Jan 19, 2013 at 06:31:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  and how about that poll? kickass answers or what? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dorkenergy

      can I do this with the best of them or what?

      Gold, I tells ya, gold!

      also notice the number of votes for 'cold dead hands?'

      I think those might be visitors from the Facebook page where I posted a link back to my response. wonder if any of them actually read my diary?

      besides my friend, he reads everything. you still here DP?

      but I'm losing it, don't listen to me.

      and its way past my bedtime.

      no man is completely worthless, he can always be used as a bad example.

      by srfRantz on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 10:25:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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