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Cross posted at The Progressive Zionist

So today is the day for the Israelis. The elections are up and running and many wait to see the results.

The Polls are due to close at 10 PM Israel time (12 noon PST, 3 PM EST) and then results can start being reported. As of now, Turnout is looking to be at it's highest point since 1999 with The Times of Israel projecting a possible 70% turnout was at 55% as of 4 PM Israel Time.

On social media and throughout the nation one thing I am hearing is that Likud-Betainu is NOT going to get the mandates they thought they were (Assaf called this one on Sunday). Haaretz is running a "liveblog". Sources there are saying Likud-Betainu may get as few as 31 Mandates (down from 42 they currently hold though it is still way to early to tell)

According to Haaretz:

7.52 P.M. Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu officials are trading accusations, imputing the responsibility for the electoral failure of their joint ticket.

5:33 P.M.  Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tells Haaretz  that voter turnout in Likud strongholds in Israel are low, highlighting the growing fear within his party that it's heading for collapse. As the evening wears on, Netanyahu is continuing his efforts to awaken Likud voters across the country.

5.27 P.M. Likud is concerned with low turnout at the party's traditional bastions. "We're lucky if we get 31 seats," one party official said.

On some other interesting notes - Yesh Atid is claiming that polling from Channel 10 shows that they will be the # 2 Party in Israel. This is of course complete speculation but it does pose some interesting questions if true.

Other stories seem to be Arab Turnout which was around 10% in some places was starting to pick up and in Nazareth has hit 44%. The Arab parties are working hard to get out the vote and in an unusual move the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Michael Sabbah has urged Arab citizens to get out to vote.

Along with this turnout on the IDF bases are also high with 60% turnout (up 13% from 2009) with five hours to go.

What will happen here is anyone's guess and depending on vote totals things could shift in the country dramatically.

A few days ago I wrote a diary based on possible coalitions... Now.... with what I am hearing. Who knows?

I will be posting updates throughout the day. I seriously hope our Israeli friends will come in and comment and share what they are hearing as well.

IMPORTANT NOTE: THIS DIARY IS AN INFORMATION DIARY. SPECULATION ON THE ELECTION IS WELCOME. WHAT THIS IS NOT, IS THAT IT IS NOT AN ADVOCACY DIARY ON I/P. I AM NOT TAKING A POSITION HERE ON POLICY. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS THEN PLEASE WRITE YOUR OWN DIARY AND LEAVE IT OUT OF HERE. HOWEVER, IF YOU HAVE COMMENTS / QUESTIONS ON POSSIBLE COALITIONS AND/OR PROJECTIONS REGARDING THE ELECTION. THEN I HOPE YOU WILL CONTRIBUTE.
And let the Parodies begin...
LOL Image of Jeremy Gimpel from HaBayit HaYehudi who said he would like to see a Third Temple built where a "blown up" Dome of the Rock was

10:20 AM PT: From the Times of Israel: 20:12

The Twittersphere is awash with purported leaks from the TV exit polls which, based on initial small samples, ostensibly show why Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is sounding worried.

The leaks purport to show the Likud doing less well than even the more pessimistic final polls, falling below the 30-seat mark, and Jewish Home and Yesh Atid competing to be the second biggest party with 16 or so seats each. The leaks still show a right-wing/Orthodox bloc managing to win more than 61 seats, but only just.

BELOW 30 SEATS... WHOA.... And where is Avodah and Livni (HaTanuah)

10:25 AM PT: From Haaretz:     8.08 P.M. Tzipi Livni says will pursue attempts to join forces with Labor and Yesh Atid.

8.06 P.M. Netanyahu calls on supporters: "The Likud government is in danger, go vote for us for the sake of the country's future."

11:13 AM PT: From the The Times of Israel:

21:03

A source close to the prime minister confirms that Benjamin Netanyahu is truly anxious about the initial exit poll projections, Channel 2 reports, dispelling the suspicion that Netanyahu’s Facebook post was a last-ditch plea to get out the vote.

Jewish Home leader Naftali Bennett writes on his Facebook page that according to the information his party has gathered thus far, Netanyahu will be the next prime minister. No surprises there. But “the big question is who will be his No. 2, Naftali Bennett, Shelly [Yachimovich], or [Yair] Lapid,” he writes

A government official is telling confidantes, meanwhile, that Yesh Atid is faring exceptionally well, closing in on as many as 20 seats.

11:28 AM PT: And from the U.S.:

9.21 P.M. The White House said that regardless of the results of the Israeli election, the U.S. approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would not change.

"We will continue to make clear that only through direct negotiations can the Palestinians and the Israelis ... achieve the peace they both deserve," said spokesman Jay Carney. He said the complexity of the conflict, not Obama's relationship with the Israeli leader, was the main impediment.


12:03 PM PT: AND THIS FROM HAARETZ:

9.50 P.M. Labor officials: we're not ruling out endorsing Lapid for PM.

12:06 PM PT: FIRST PROJECTIONS ARE IN:

First projections (ch. 2): Likud 31, Yesh Atid 19, Labor 17, Shas 12, Jewish House 12, Meretz 7, Livni 7, United Torah Judaism 6, Arab parties (combined) 9 -- ch, 2 calls it 61-59 for the right.

3:25 PM PT: Revised figures from Channel 2:

The new prediction: Likud-Beytenu 33, Yesh Atid 18, Labor 16, Shas 12, Jewish Home 11, Hatnua 7, United Torah Judaism 7, Meretz 6, and the combined Arab parties 10.

That puts the right-wing/Orthodox bloc at 63, leaving the center-left-Arab bloc at 57.

3:57 PM PT: Lapid calling for a Left - Right Broad Coalition http://www.ynetnews.com/...

Lapid said, "There is a possibility to create a true and fair Center that listens to the other, that remembers that we are together; not at the expense of one another, but together.

"I urge the senior members of the political system to form as broad a government as possible that would unite the moderate forces from the Left and Right, so that we will be able to bring about real change in the State of Israel," he said.

4:58 PM PT: And now... Labor is down to 15 Seats, Kadima enters the Knesset with Two

As of 2:47 AM Israel time: The seats are as follows: Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu 31, Yesh Atid 19, Labor Party 15, Shas 12, Habayit Hayehudi 11, Hatnuah 7, United Torah Judaism 7, Meretz 6, United Arab List – Ta'al 4, Balad 3, Hadash 3, Kadima 2.

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:00 AM PST.

Also republished by Team Shalom.

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's probably harder to get excited about (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    parliamentary elections than when you can (mostly) directly-elect a head of state. Also, I wonder how it's determined that 'turnout is low' vs. 'there are a lot less of us'?

    I see what you did there.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:07:08 AM PST

  •  Foreign Policy mag (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, GoGoGoEverton

    seems to think that re-election for Netanyahu is a near certainty.

    High turnout but not breaking for Likud? Thanks for the diary by the way.

    Look, I tried to be reasonable...

    by campionrules on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:09:16 AM PST

    •  Well Likud-Betainu will probably hold the most (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      campionrules

      seats (maybe), but, their ability to form a coalition will be hampered particularly if the Center (Yesh Atid or HaTanuah) show large numbers. IF Avodah does the same, this will get very interesting.

      As for this....

      High turnout but not breaking for Likud?
      Yep... Apparently their turnout is low, and the populace is breaking away from them.

      One thing is that this is all speculation. No one will know until after the polls close.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:15:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  bookmarking so can keep checking back for updates (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, aargh

    of course that means u better keep updating  :-P

    T&R

  •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, aargh

    Pretty heartening to see the infernal Likud/YB alliance sputtering on twitter, even if it may not be borne out by the final results.

    (Hi old DK I/P folks!  Hope the last several years have been good to you...)

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:26:46 AM PST

    •  WHOA look who the cat dragged in! (or should I say (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jay Elias, Hey338Too, aargh

      dog)...

      The last few years have been good and it is nice to see you. Welcome back if even for a few minutes!

      Oh and yes, I agree with you. I am really heartened. I am planning on going to Israel in June with the family. I hope I can see a new directions.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:31:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This looks to be one messed up election (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aargh

    Yisrael Beiteinu should NEVER have merged with Lukid.  This weakened Yisrael Beiteinu far too much.

    I hope that a late GOTV puts Yisrael Beiteinu/Lukid back on top.  I would prefer that Yisrael Beiteinu was apart from Lukid and therefore be able to have a more prominent voice and be the leader of the coalition, instead of Lukid.

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:29:22 AM PST

  •  Livni ...pursue ...join forces w Labor & Yesh Atid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, aargh

    liking that

  •  Hmmm... wondering if BiBi borrowed ORCA... (3+ / 0-)

    ... from Mitt.  BiBi sounded pretty confident a couple of weeks ago.

    I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

    by Hey338Too on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 11:15:09 AM PST

  •  Well now... Here is an intriguing possibility (4+ / 0-)

    A Center Left Coalition...

    Yesh Atid - 19 seats + Labor 17 Seats + Ha Tanuah 7 Seats + Shas 12 seats + Meretz 7 seats -

    GIVES THE CENTER 63 SEATS!

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:14:12 PM PST

    •  Whoops 62 seats.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TLS66, DEMonrat ankle biter, aargh

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:15:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  But would Yesh Atid (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1, aargh

      agree to be in a colaition in which Shas is a member?

      "Valerie, why am I getting all these emails calling me a classless boor?"

      by TLS66 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:54:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, livosh1

        Shas is a religious party, but one whose voters are primarily modern Orthodox who serve in the military.  Shas has also shown a willingness over time to compromise on social issues (except for gay rights issues) to promote Sephardic issues and more recently, to support the settler movement and the occupation.  Yesh Atid is a party primarily concerned with social issues, particularly those relating to the middle class, and while they support a two-state solution in their platform, they also state that they support the rentention of the larger settlement blocs.  The possibility for compromise between the two is quite real (although not one that would significantly serve American interests in Israel).

        The reality is that while Atid and Shas could join in a coalition somewhat easily, the odds aren't very good that it will happen, and probably Netanyahu will retain power for the time being.  The problem is less getting Atid and Shas together than it is getting these parties together with Meretz and Hatnuah.  The odds are that a Likud/Bayit Yehudi/UTJ/Shas coalition will simply be easier to form.  And if the right wing bloc improves on its results when military votes are counted, this will become even more likely.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 01:32:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Which coalition would be more ameniable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    to the Obama administration?

    •  Well I would bet some form of Centrist (4+ / 0-)

      Coalition.

      This one is going to be very, very interesting in the next few days. The Rightists can't do it without the fascists controlling things. For the Center or Center Left to do it, they have to bring in either non-Zionist Arab parties which has less chance of happening than I have of becoming King of the World, or they can bring in Shas (a religious party).

      But, a Lapid, Livni, Yachimovich coalition is far more amenable to the U.S. than a Likud, Habayit Hayehudi, Shas, UTJ, Otzma Yisrael group.

      Far More.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:34:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks so much...I don't know much (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        about the politics/coalition/parties over there but I do know Bibi & Pres. Obama has had a very difficult relationship.  I much prefer Pres. Obama's approach to Bibi so.....

      •  I'm predicting centrist as well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        Likud-Beiteinu, Yesh Atid, Labor (I don't think Yachimovich will hold her position), Hatnuah.  Maybe even with Habayit Hayehudi in there.  I suspect this is going to be a coalition that listens and does nothing regarding the Palestinians, but which might get a strong push regarding religious matters, including drafting Haredim and easing conversions (probably finding a way to get Rabbi Stav in as Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi).

    •  one sans Bibi and Lieberman nt. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1
  •  Wow (4+ / 0-)

    Quite surprised Yesh Atid did as well as it did...just shows how powerful the desire for a universal draft has become.  Lapid's definitely having a meteoric rise.

    Hey you, dont tell me theres no hope at all Together we stand, divided we fall.

    by marcvstraianvs on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:39:11 PM PST

  •  Yay parlimentary elections! (3+ / 0-)

    I'm such a junkie.  I love multiparty elections with all the coalition jockeying and deal making.  As long as they are someone else's messy election.

    There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

    by slothlax on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 12:56:44 PM PST

  •  RE: on Labor poss endorse Lapid, he is atractive (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aargh

    tangent / lighter note and a goofy opinion here

    But hey, "silver fox" with very nice thick eyebrows (like thick eyebrows) came to mind when googling

  •  It's a TIE!!!! It's a TIE!!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, DEMonrat ankle biter

    You have to remember that Lieberman is just as anti-herudi as he is anti-arab. Bibi may be gone as leader.

    This is good, but not great news. Great News would be a Labor majority, but that's not going to happen.

  •  I've just remembered that the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, DEMonrat ankle biter

    election was today so I immediately looked for this post.

    Thanks for doing it.

    I'm going to sleep soon but this will be the first place I check for results and analyses when I wake up.

    I'm counting on all of you for the results and your analyses. :)

    Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

    by InAntalya on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 01:56:24 PM PST

  •  From the Jerusalem Post: (4+ / 0-)

    and I quote:

    Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's Likud Beytenu list did even worse in Tuesday's election than public opinion polls predicted last week, winning 31 seats according to exit polls on three television networks and only 29 in a Smith Research exit poll conducted for The Jerusalem Post.

    In a clear shift away from the Right, the polls found that the Center-Left bloc, which won only 55 seats in the 2009 election, had risen to 58-59 seats in the polls on TV. The Smith poll, which predicted a fight between Kadima and Strong Israel over the last three seats, found that the Center-Left bloc could still win a majority.

    this is more fun than last november!!!!
  •  any new updates or r the groups still negotiating (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    is it finalized that Netanyahu is PM or r the center-center, center, center-left, labor, etc still trying to see if they can cobble together enough seats for PM spot/control?

    I must say, parliamentary systems though confusing are very interesting

    •  No.. there are lots of updates but there (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mannie, DEMonrat ankle biter

      are a lot of negotiations now going.

      The final total is this:

      Likud-Betainu - 31 (Down from 42)
      Yesh Atid - 19 (new party)
      Labor - 15 (Up from 8)
      Shas - 11 (unchanged)
      HaBayit HaYehudi - 11 (up from 7)
      United Torah Judaism - 7 (up from 6)
      HaTanuah - 6 (new party)
      Meretz - 6 (up from 3)
      United Arab List - 5 (up from 3)
      Hadash - 4 (unchanged)
      Balad - 3 (unchanged)
      Kadima - 2 (Down from 28)

      So the split is Righists = 60, Center/Center Left Zionist = 48 and Arab Parties =12 (though Hadash is a mixture of Arab AND Jewish but it is non-Zionist).

      For the Center to get to 60 they need to pull in one of the Religious Parties as there will be no alliances with the Arab Parties. Most likely the Prime Minister will get his coalition but, I cannot see it being particularly long lived.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 09:28:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would like to see (0+ / 0-)

        Lukid-Betainu (31) + HaBayit HaYehudi (11) + Shas (11) + United Torah Judaism (7) = 62

        Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

        by Mannie on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 10:19:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  um Mannie... your math is off (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DEMonrat ankle biter

          That is only 60.

          Funny, I would like to see almost the opposite -

          Yesh Atid (19), Labor (15), HaTanuah (6), Meretz (6), Kadima (2), Shas (11), and UTJ (7).

          Honestly I would rather not have Shas or UTJ but that is the only way to get it done.

          BUT my way is probably (well certainly) not going to happen.

          What will probably happen is that Likud-Betainu will hold out a nice carrot for Lapid (Lieberman is saying they should give him the Finance Ministry), and Lapid (like Kadima and Labor before him) will go into coalition with Bibi actually thinking they are going to come away with something... And then - POW!!!! The Bibi pool of bullshit will swallow them, and NOTHING will get accomplished. Not Social Justice, not economic reform, not talks with the Palestinians. NOTHING. BUT Lapid will get the Finance Ministry.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 10:39:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  darn, you are correct on my bad math (0+ / 0-)

            make a concession to Kadima (2) (plush Ministry spot) to up my want to 62

            Lukid-Betainu (31) + HaBayit HaYehudi (11) + Shas (11) + United Torah Judaism (7) + concession to Kadima (2)

            And I don't understand why you stand for the parties that are much WEAKER on Israeli security and land.

            Bibi while not perfect by any means (i.e. endorsing Shit Romney), is not as bad as you make him out to be.

            Also I don't see Bibi (unlike the parties you mentioned) making another Oslo Accord mistake. (Which is why I favor a party like [name in English] ISRAEL OUR HOME who will stand up for the tough but needed choices)

            Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

            by Mannie on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 10:53:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I gotta disagree with you 100% here on a few (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DEMonrat ankle biter

              points.

              First:

              And I don't understand why you stand for the parties that are much WEAKER on Israeli security and land.
              I would say the same to you.

              The Habayit Hayehudi or Feiglin wing of the Likud propose a One State Solution that will radically change the very character of Israel and destroy whatever Jewish Majority there may be. UNLESS they either A. Carry out a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing or B. Simply disenfranchise most of the Arab populace in the West Bank. Either way, this is completely wrong and will lead to the eventual destruction of the State of Israel.

              I am not sure how you can say that being isolated completely internationally (because that is what will happen, if Bennett or the Hard Right of Likud get their way), or pissing off BOTH the U.S. and the E.U. makes Israel safer.

              In today's world, Israel is much safer with secure borders and a maintenance of its national values surrounding Jewish Democracy.

              Now before you tell me all the things that the Arabs have done wrong and their maximalist demands (and I get that part of things), tell me how Israel is safer as a State that carries out either massive ethnic cleansing OR massive disenfranchisement. In the short run (5 years) maybe... but not in the long run.

              As far as this:

              Bibi while not perfect by any means (i.e. endorsing Shit Romney), is not as bad as you make him out to be.
              I gotta disagree here as well... Bibi IS that bad. He has absolutely taken no stand on anything - the Occupation or anything else. Right now he is pulled in about three different direction and while he may talk a good game about some things, he does fuck all when it comes to doing them.

              After the J14 rallies he talked about social justice and economic reform. How'd that work out? Oh right... it didn't. He just keeps tossing more and more to his rich friends.

              After Bar-Ilan, he talked about a Two State Solution... So where is that at? He just keeps building and building, and his party moved to the Hard Right with One Staters Danon, and Feiglin.

              When aligning with Kadima, he talked about spreading the "burdens" of society more equally. More a long the lines of the Haredi exemption from the IDF. How'd that work out? Oh Right... Kadima pulled out of the coalition and got exactly nothing.

              Bibi, is that bad. He is isolating Israel internationally, he is not building up the economic side of things for all Israelis (so while numbers look OK, the wealth is concentrating at the top), and he is making no effort to solve some of the Social Justice problems his nation faces

              And I most disagree here:

              Also I don't see Bibi (unlike the parties you mentioned) making another Oslo Accord mistake. (Which is why I favor a party like [name in English] ISRAEL OUR HOME who will stand up for the tough but needed choices)
              I don't think Oslo was a mistake. In my mind there has to be at least an attempt at negotiation. I recommend you read my piece I put up at Progressive Zionist a few days ago - it's long and you will probably disagree with it but that is how I feel.

              Mannie, simply put, we are on different sides of the Israeli equation. I supported Labor and HaTanuah this election. Most of my friends supported Yesh Atid (who are about to go into coalition with Netanyahu and therefore make themselves irrelevant). / HaTanuah / Meretz.

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 11:28:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You have a good heart, but reality sucks (0+ / 0-)
                I gotta disagree here as well... Bibi IS that bad. He has absolutely taken no stand on anything - the Occupation or anything else. Right now he is pulled in about three different direction and while he may talk a good game about some things, he does fuck all when it comes to doing them.
                Due to the nature of parliamentary rule, the leader will always be pulled in 3 or more directions.  Why single Bibi out for this?
                After the J14 rallies he talked about social justice and economic reform. How'd that work out? Oh right... it didn't. He just keeps tossing more and more to his rich friends.
                That is the nature of a politician. I can show you waht many here think are good democrats, yet they are beholden to Wall Street.  In this regard Bibi is no more better or worse than 90%+ of politicians.
                The Habayit Hayehudi or Feiglin wing of the Likud propose a One State Solution that will radically change the very character of Israel and destroy whatever Jewish Majority there may be. UNLESS they either A. Carry out a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing or B. Simply disenfranchise most of the Arab populace in the West Bank. Either way, this is completely wrong and will lead to the eventual destruction of the State of Israel.
                No one wants ethnic cleansing, but should the Palestinians choose to start something, you can NOT blame the defender (Israel) for winning a fight that the other one started.

                Like I tell the anti-semetic repug at work about this issue (who only pretends to care about the Palestinians as long as they only kill those of us who would not belong to his countryclub).  If I walk up to you and suckerpunch you, then you beat me down mercilessly, did I deserve it? Yes!  Do I have a right to complain? NO!

                Disenfranchise most of the Arab population & give them a territory without sovergn rights.  This can work without violence. Examples: Plenty of them, go visit a reservation. But in the case of the USA, we have it backwards. The USA put the true owners of the country in reservations & the thieves (and their descendents of which we are among those) have control. The solution proposed by the right in Israel would have the true owners of the land in control.

                I am not sure how you can say that being isolated completely internationally (because that is what will happen, if Bennett or the Hard Right of Likud get their way), or pissing off BOTH the U.S. and the E.U. makes Israel safer.
                The Muslim population in the EU is growing. As such there will come a time when unless Israel lays down and surrenders, there won't be any support from the EU for Israel anyways. As for the US this issue will always be up/down depending on the politicians we elect.
                I don't think Oslo was a mistake. In my mind there has to be at least an attempt at negotiation.
                Oslo let more weapons into the PA, and as such they were used to fire at Israelis. Concessions were made by Israel, and all the PA did was take those, escalate violence, and demand more.

                In my mind Oslo was an abject FAILURE.  If this is what is to come from negotiations, then I favor a unilateral move by Israel looking out for its best interests!

                Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

                by Mannie on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 12:24:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I completely disagree with this except for the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DEMonrat ankle biter

                  part about my good heart ;-)

                  I wrote a really long response and my computer crapped it out. SO rather than write another one, I will just tell you that I disagree with almost every single thing you wrote here. Almost everything.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 01:09:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wish I could've read it (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, DEMonrat ankle biter

                    I wrote a really long response and my computer crapped it out.

                    Garbage in garbage out, that is why your computer crapped it out! LOL :-P

                    Seriously, while it is obvious we don't agree, I do respect your opinions.  While they may be far from my own, you do put up well reasoned thought behind your opinions.

                    I disagree with almost every single thing you wrote here. Almost everything.
                    Even my part about politicians beholden to money?

                    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

                    by Mannie on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 01:23:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well there was even a point there. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DEMonrat ankle biter

                      I agree that all Politicians are beholden to money, but, unlike your example of Democratic Politicians, I think Bibi is all fine about lining his folks pockets and doesn't care one whit for the poor. He is a classic Republican. I don't like them here and I don't like them for Israel.

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 01:33:11 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  hmm no alliance doesnt mean cant vote for new pm (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        though right?

        I mean the center center left could just say look arab bloc... we can't give you any political offices, power, whatever BUT better Us and our PM choice than how netanyahu will treat you

        not sure im wording what im thinking properly/ making sense

  •  I am so heartened by the election results. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    {fingers-crossed}

    •  I am not... I was until Lapid (0+ / 0-)

      announced that he can't wait to join with Netanyahu and the Right. Of course, he wasn't elected to do that, but, heck when did that stop anyone.

      As I said on another blog.. Lapid just consigned himself to another series of "One hit wonder" candidates and by next election should have Yesh Atid down to 2-3 seats (if he is lucky).

      What I wonder, is just how long it will take him to renounce everything he ever stood for in return for the Finance or Education Ministry.

      We have a "roadmap" here. Labor took it first, then Kadima took used it. They both went off the cliff. hat is exactly where Yesh Atid is heading as well and unless they have a flying car... They are going to follow the same results as Kadima and Labor.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 at 01:50:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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