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1) In his manifesto, alleged copkiller Christopher Dorner states that he had a TS/SCI clearance.  News reports indicate that he was a Naval Intelligence officer.   If so, then the FBI --not the LAPD --needs to investigate Dorner's claims about the LAPD.    If Dorner's claims about being framed are true, then LAPD's management has deliberately  damaged national security and needs to be held accountable.  Because they may have provoked Dorner into giving classified information to our enemies.   Moreover, the FBI needs to intercede and prevent Dorner from being killed outright by the LAPD before he can be interrogated and the damage determined.

2)  If Dorner had a TS/SCI clearance, then it gives credence to --but does not prove -- his claims.   I have had four of the clearances in the past.   They require a deep background check and strict  standards for character --  what many people would consider minor infractions can be the basis for denial.

They also require periodic polygraph tests and that would have put Dorner in a deep bind if his claim that his  LAPD supervisor  Sgt Evans  kicked the suspect was true.   He had to prepare --and sign --the report of the arrest.  Submitting a false and deceptive report -- even if encouraged by LAPD culture -- would  have caused him problems on the poly and --once revealed -- could have cost him his clearance.

Security officers in the Intelligence Community have a strong intolerance of deceit and dishonesty --  for the lower ranks at least.    News report, for example, indicate that in 2002 Dorner turned in a bag  of $8000 cash that he had found on a highway (he was not a policeman at the time.)

3) Conversely, having to sustain a TS/SCI clearance would have strongly deterred Dorner from filing a false report against Sgt Evans -- the offence for which LAPD fired him.   Such a false report would also have shown up on the poly and been grounds for revoking the clearance on which his service in the Navy Reserve depended.  

4) Police officers are also subject to polygraphs and the FBI should administer them to Sgt Evans and to the LAPD commanders/officers cited by Dorner  as part of its investigation.   After all,  the LAPD would  certainly pressure any  criminal suspect to take the polygraph exam and the FBI  demands the same of any suspect in a national security investigation.

5) People who argue that investigating Dorners claims is supporting a murderer are wrong.   Christopher Dorner  is a dead man -- he will either die from a bullet "resisting arrest" or he will die from the needle after a trial.  I see nothing that can stop that.    

Dorner  will be held responsible for his actions -- but his LAPD commanders should be as well.  This is a man who was apparently honest and who gave almost a decade
of his life to protecting his fellow Americans --both as a police officer and in Iraq as a Navy officer.  To have  met the standards of those demanding professions -- at the same time -- called for a lot of hard work and dedication.    

If he was put in an impossible situation and driven insane by bureaucratic deceit, then
the people responsible need to pay.   Conversely, if LAPD is innocent then they deserve to have their name cleared by an independent investigation.

6) Those of us here at Daily Kos have a moral obligation to ask our political leaders to have the FBI look into this.  We work to elect Democratic politicans and some of those politicans voted for an unnecessary war that pulled Dorner out of his civilian police job shortly after he left the Academy and sent him to Iraq.   His reentry to LAPD under probation --after a year's military service -- is reportedly what made him vulnerable to Sgt Evan's alleged intimidation.  

LAPD commanders thought that also gave Dorner incentive to file a false claim against Sgt Evan --which may be true.   However, neither LAPD commanders nor the California court judges who heard Dorner's case apparently know what strong compulsions are placed on TS/SCI holders to be honest.

7) Currently returning Iraq veterans are rewarded for their service with  a 9.1 percent unemployment rate-- military service provides few skills valued by the commercial marketplace.   That rate will probably soar in the coming years with the massive cuts planned for the military.

Since Dorner is a black male, his situation upon losing his Navy career due to LAPD's firing was even more bleak -- black unemployment has been around 16% in the four years since we elected a Democratic President and gave the Democratic Caucus a huge majority in the House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Dorner was unlikely to find another police job after being fired by LAPD and police work is one of the few job areas in which military veterans can find employment.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Excellent Points (5+ / 0-)

    Sadly I am not so sure I trust the FBI these days.

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:44:23 AM PST

  •  Nope (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA, lcj98, doc2, Dogs are fuzzy
    If he was put in an impossible situation and driven insane by bureaucratic deceit, then the people responsible need to pay.
    There are no excuses.  

    He alone is responsible for his actions.  

    "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier." Rudyard Kipling

    by EdMass on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 10:58:11 AM PST

    •  there can be multilple levels of responsibility (8+ / 0-)

      he is definitely responsible for the actions he is taking.

      there still may be criminality in the way he was treated by the LAPD. They are also responsible for that.

      If this man had any mental illness, along with his very rigid honor framework, which he was trained to have for his military standing, and they pushed him into insanity, we need to hold them accountable. We don't them to continue doing this to others.

      •  Your mistreatment (0+ / 0-)

        in Boston, is I do believe, was criminal on the part of the BPD.

        This is not the same, imho.

        "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier." Rudyard Kipling

        by EdMass on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:48:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think the two are comparable. (0+ / 0-)

          He was on the force, after having been in the military, and felt that he was treated dishonorably and that he could not condone the mistreatment of suspects. Everything he identified with as defining who he was was taken away and everything he felt he was called to do in this life was put into question by what he witnessed the police force really being about.

          That's so different from me.

          If, for instance, that homeless man really was kicked in the face by the other cop, the fact that the force, as an institution, would ruin his career over wanting justice, left him nowhere to go and nothing to be.

          I don't have those issues. I knew, up front, that the police were not my friends in the action I was taking. I harbored no illusions about what they were capable of and who they were really serving. I wish it weren't so. I wish we would all stand up and make it not so.

          The police forces around this country are the greatest bastion of racism we have. They are brutal about it and they are continuing to be trained as military units, desensitizing them to humanity. We need to stop this. If we don't, there will be more Dorners. Men and women who have a honorable warrior in them who want to be of service with a high value on ethics and justice, who take the training and the propaganda of why they are being trained so seriously that when they find out that the system isn't what they thought was and the culture of the police force betrays them, they snap and go on a rampage.

          It will happen again. Especially because there is so much resistance to even talking about this. Just look at how those who bring this up are treated right here on DKos, the supposedly progressive community. Why is everyone so unwilling to question "authority" here?

          It isn't a matter of supporting what Dorner ended up doing. It's not an either/or proposition on who is in the wrong. The great tragedy is that everyone is in the wrong. Everyone.

    •  No argument (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee, Neuroptimalian

      If indeed he was driven crazy by workplace abuse (not proven of course) then the people who did it are also responsible for their actions.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:14:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why would he be concerned about (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    maintaining a military security clearance after discharge from the military?  Is that even possible?

    •  Dorner says LAPD firing destroyed his Navy (5+ / 0-)

      Reserve career as well:

      From his manifesto:

      "“The LAPD has suppressed the truth and it has now lead to deadly consequences. The LAPD’s actions have cost me my law enforcement career that began on 2/7/05 and ended on 1/2/09. They cost me my Naval career which started on 4/02 and ends on 2/13. I had a TS/SCI clearance(Top Secret Sensitive Compartmentalized Information clearance) up until shortly after my termination with LAPD,” Dorner wrote. “This is the highest clearance a service member can attain other than a Yankee White TS/SCI which is only granted for those working with and around the President/Vice President of the United States. I lost my position as a Commanding Officer of a Naval Security Forces reserve unit at NAS Fallon because of the LAPD.”

    •  Because it opens doors to jobs (8+ / 0-)

      All sorts of Beltway Bandit and civilian government jobs require clearances and it's a royal pain for them to wait for someone off the street to get cleared.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:16:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Plus losing SCI one makes even lower ones (9+ / 0-)

        hard to get.   I seem to recall that even the application for the low level non-SCI Secret clearance asks if you have ever had a clearance denied.

        LAPD really buggered Dorner in a way many people won't understand.    Every career open to him  with his past work experience/training was now closed -- not only police work but military and defense contractor work as well.   Which left the night shift at McDonalds for the next 35 years.

        Possibly LAPD was justified -- but if not, someone needs to be held accountable.   Which in no way lets Dorner off the hook for the killings.

    •  He was only just discharged from the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Navy recently. This all happened in 2007-2009.

      "Mitt Romney looks like the CEO who fires you, then goes to the Country Club and laughs about it with his friends." ~ Thomas Roberts MSNBC

      by second gen on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:20:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The fix is in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    There is no way there will be a finding, either by the LAPD or by the FBI, that the report filed by Dorner was correct and that he was framed, regardless of the truth of the matter.  There may be some token “mistakes were made” conclusion, but no more than that.

    Now some might argue that even if Dorner were vindicated, that would not justify his going on a killing spree.  True enough.  Vindication and justification are independent considerations.  But not two people in ten are capable of making such a subtle distinction.  So, vindication is out of the question.

  •  Maybe But Not Publicly Acknowledged Any Time Soon (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CaliSista, Lujane

    after the shootings.

    Otherwise we've demonstrated to all potential terrorists who have grievances that they too might get the change they seek by perpetrating violence.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:27:25 AM PST

  •  ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, emobile

    Why are you trying to find validation of this lunatics actions?

    The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing online commenters that they have anything to say.-- B.F.

    by lcj98 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:32:44 AM PST

  •  the federal government has a conflict of interest (5+ / 0-)

    because they were supposed to monitor the LAPD after the Rampart scandal.

    A federal judge Friday lifted the controversial consent decree that for more than eight years had guided an independent monitor overseeing sweeping reforms of the Los Angeles Police Department imposed after the Rampart corruption scandal.

    U.S. District Court Judge Gary Feess said the LAPD had sufficiently complied in reforming itself to no longer require the oversight of monitor Michael Cherkasky.

    ...Feess replaced the consent decree with a transitional agreement hammered out by attorneys for the LAPD and the U.S. Department of Justice and proposed to the court last month.

    If the FBI were to investigate the LAPD, they might find evidence that the LAPD had not abided by the terms of the transitional agreement (the text can be found here).

    That would embarrass the DOJ and tough questions might be asked about whether the feds had fulfilled their responsibility to exercise oversight. Perhaps there might even have been complicity or negligence on the part of the federal government, who knows.

    So out of self-preservation, the FBI will not do an investigation into the LAPD. They are very motivated, however, to lend their resources to hunting down Dorner. And they are.

    If you were looking for impartial justice, you won't find it from the federal government, I'm afraid.

    "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

    by limpidglass on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:35:53 AM PST

  •  Let me check. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, TheLizardKing
    Are you SURE you want to hide this comment? Community guidelines for hide rating only when the comment is so disruptive or damaging to the community that it should be deleted from the discussion.  Hide rating merely out of disagreement is inappropriate.  If you abuse your ratings privilege, you may lose it. Do you want to proceed?
    Yes, yes I do.  I think this diary is an apology for, and a reward to, killing people.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 11:42:03 AM PST

    •  I do not agree with you, Rich in Pa (6+ / 0-)

      I believe this is an exploration into some aspects of our own humanity that is not always just so black and white. The more we understand about this and others involved will only bring us to a better place along the road to  living in the world and community.
      I will regret that the police find him and as probably will happen, shoot him dead, so that he will not have a chance to tell us why he snapped. His history certainly indicated an intelligent dedicated individual who had been well screened. For those reasons alone, he should be studied so we can learn from this experience. He is after all, a human being, as we are.

    •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheLizardKing, EdMass

      Lets see, he's killed some people? Check. Ok, then lets look into his grievances, give them more weight than if he hadn't killed anybody. Lets reward him for his murders.

      I have 5 HRs a day to give to people who write diaries in support of this man or his claims. Imagine that his targets are YOUR children, people. Still think he's a wronged man deserving of our support?

      •  he's been quite clear who his targets are (6+ / 0-)

        police, and family members of those police he believes are corrupt. And so far, he's apparently attacked only the people he said he would.

        The LAPD, OTOH? They mistook a couple of short, older Hispanic women for a 270-pound thirtysomething black man, and lit up their truck. Which looked nothing like Dorner's truck.

        Sounds like it's much more likely we'll get shot by paranoid, trigger-happy police than the fugitive they're hunting.

        Evidently, if you look like Dorner, you need to watch out for the cops. If you don't look like Dorner--you really, really, really need to watch out for the cops.

        But that's OK, right? They have a badge, and whatever they do, whomever they harm, even if they beat the shit out of or kill someone, it's explained away as "collateral damage"--regrettable, but necessary. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it"--that's the warped logic that prevails in modern American law enforcement.

        If only Dorner had stuck to lawless brutality against the poor and powerless, rather than engaging in lawless brutality against his fellow officers and their families, he'd have been fine. Maybe even make captain someday.

        The problem, viewed from the perspective of The System, isn't that he's a lawless killer. It's that he's a lawless killer killing people that The System deems important.

        "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

        by limpidglass on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:30:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, he's been clear that his (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          targets are the children of his numerous enemies. But go ahead, compare him favorably to others.

          •  They were not children. Using the term for (0+ / 0-)

            emotional purposes doesn't make your case any more valid. He killed loved ones. That was his purpose. They.were.not.children.

            "Mitt Romney looks like the CEO who fires you, then goes to the Country Club and laughs about it with his friends." ~ Thomas Roberts MSNBC

            by second gen on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:23:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Two definitions of child (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              doc2, Darmok

              One based on age, one based on relationship. The phrase "adult children" is not uncommon.

              I have known a couple of people who have lost adult chidlren to early death. They were their children, regardless of age. Dorner did, in fact, already kill one of his "enemies" children, and seeming indicated he had plans for more.

              "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

              by Catte Nappe on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:45:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wrong. The woman killed was the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, Darmok

              child of a police captain. And in the manifesto the creep specifically says he will kill the children of the people on his list. So what is your quibble, that the murdered people were not under 18 (yet)?

        •  my BIG concern is, for now, primarily drone (0+ / 0-)

          doing "elimination."
          seeking links, power here flickering, appreciate assistance.

          There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

          by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:51:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No one is rewarding him (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KenBee, FarWestGirl

        we are discussing what could be a very real problem.

        This guy has now blazed a trail that others could follow. That is not a good thing.

        I am sorry you think that what he has accused LAPD of doing never happens because it does. Often it leads to death for someone or many someones when the protected cop(s) finally goes one step to far because after all they have gotten away with it before.

        He has left and easily followed trail complete with documentation of names dates and times. That is all a journalist should need to get to the bottom of it.

        If in fact they did what he said how many more are out there that haven't done anything.

        So HR away you may count on me to uprate. See I lost a good friend to one of these protected cops who not only kept his job he got promoted all the way to cheif of police.

        It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is not what he has -Henry Ward Beecher

        by PSWaterspirit on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:57:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh bullshit. If you didn't already (0+ / 0-)

          know this about the LAPD you havent been paying attention. This murderer has taught us nothing. He murders innocent people, and he says a bunch of things, some of which are true, but none of which are revealing of anything we didn't already know. So all you are left with is a murderer.

    •  I "reward" nothing (7+ / 0-)

      I don't see how anyone can reward Dorner -- as I noted, he is a dead man.  

      But simple concern for the national interest says the federal government should discover what caused a LAPD police officer --and Navy Lieutenant with a TS/SCI clearance -- to declare war on the LAPD.

      I also think that we owe it to Dorner --given his past service -- to have the FBI investigate his complaints.  

      •  National interest yes, Dorner no (0+ / 0-)

        I don't agree that we owe Dorner anything more than a fair trial and a painless execution.

        Investigating the LAPD is something we owe ourselves.

        Dissecting his brain is something we owe to future generations.

        Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

        by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 12:22:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think (0+ / 0-)

        Dorner is "owed" anything.

        •  IF not the Dorner of today then the Dorner of (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FarWestGirl, nancyjones

          5 years ago -- if his claims are true.   For what he was, not what he became.  

          One could argue , of course, that "Duty , Honor, Country" is for fools.   That the smart man adopts the Republican Ethos:  "Look out for number one -- and find a Rich Man's butt to kiss".  

          Certainly Dorner's life would have been easier and more comfortable if he had taken that path.   What , after all, was he fighting for -- the wages of a LAPD policeman?   A vacation in sunny Iraq?

          I myself think we should respect military service and protect whistleblowers.  

  •  The fact that the LAPD and Torrance PD shot (11+ / 0-)

    innocent people for the crime of sorta kinda looking like a shooter they were looking for deflates the argument that there's "nothing to" the idea that the LAPD is badly out of control. They are, and need oversight. The fact that the person drawing attention to them is a killer is NOT a reason to discount his allegations. He's not going to get a "reward" if the LAPD is investigated; his only "reward" will be "going to his reward" which will probably happen at the time of his capture.

    Those of you talking about "rewarding bad behavior" need to think about how the LAPD's bad behavior has been "rewarded" by lack of oversight. Do you think the abuses of the Ramparts period are over? Do you think Raymond Chandler's LAPD is totally a thing of the past?

    I'd also like to know if Dorner has PTSD from his military days.

    I'm tipping and recc'ing this diary. It is balanced and does not excuse killing- by anyone.

    •  I don't believe it's about rewarding (0+ / 0-)

      him since he'll likely be dead. I worry about setting a precedent that murder and mayhem will get your grievances a more serious hearing.

      "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

      by CaliSista on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:17:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think there should (0+ / 0-)

    necessarily be an FBI investigation into his particular grievances. I do feel that would be rewarding murder and negotiating with terrorists.

    However, I do think the LAPD needs to reflect on their culture and seek improvement. Parts of his "manifesto" ring true and mirror the type of complaints that minority communities have had for decades. Although completely undeserved, I believe that is the reason he has garnered support by what seems to be a large number of people.

    "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

    by CaliSista on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:11:02 PM PST

    •  LAPD would have reformed already if they were (0+ / 0-)

      going to without pressure. I'd like the FBI to look for a whole pattern of abuses, using Dorner's original complaint as the tip of a wedge to get at the underlying patterns of misconduct, rather than to "reward" violence. So from a public relations point of view, it's very important to move beyond Dorner very quickly so as not to give the impression of rewarding violence, and find the homeless man for starters, and other abuse victims, letting them become the focus. Then move on to focus on the police officers who are doing the abuse. I guarantee you that although there will be a pattern of abuses department-wide, that certain officers will prove to be outliers who do way more than their share of the bad stuff.

      I'm using Oakland's "Ramparts" investigation as my model for what to expect here. By all means take the focus off Dorner, but put the focus on LAPD. Start with the innocent folks they shot by mistake thinking they were Dorner.

  •  Uprate Tip Jar because of the Yahoos (3+ / 0-)

    who continually use HR for disagreement of someone's thoughts on a national story.

    "Mitt Romney looks like the CEO who fires you, then goes to the Country Club and laughs about it with his friends." ~ Thomas Roberts MSNBC

    by second gen on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:20:16 PM PST

  •  ? add/insert update on drone search/eliminate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    status i was looking into yesterday ...
    power flickering here, hard to keep abreast.
    very serious issue to me.
    links appreciated if you reply.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Mon Feb 11, 2013 at 01:48:16 PM PST

  •  UK Express reported drone use but unconfirmed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, limpidglass

    LAPD refuses to confirm or deny.

    The Atlantic notes that a drone had already been used by US law enforcement in earlier case:

  •  Thanks for diary and comments but (0+ / 0-)

    I completely missed the beginning of this saga to start with.

  •  Given that the FBI was tightly caught up (0+ / 0-)

    in the manhunt for Dorner (and may indeed have contributed personnel or materiel to the hunter-killer teams allegedly deployed in SoCal to track Dorner down), even the FBI cannot be trusted to investigate.

    I think at this point only the UN's Human Rights raporteur has the credibility and disinterestedness to mount a credible investigation into Dorner's allegations and his treatment by SoCal's law enforcement.

    Yeah, pipe dream, I know. But the larger point is that the FBI is at least partially compromised in L'Affaire Dorner.

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