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Earlier today, I Pinned the excellent picture from the front-page diary by Greg Dworkin .  Naturally, said Pin was cross-posted to my Facebook account.  Also naturally, it rattled the bars, and everyone came out to play.

And it's the same old semantic, pedantic, and fearfully frantic debate changing no one's mind.

I know most of my FB friends.  (Odd, I realize, but hey.)  And I don't like seeing them fight.  Especially, I don't like seeing them having the same old fight all the time.  So, I had to say something.  Peek below the Dread Liberal Beignet of Doom to find out what!

God, I have to keep saying this.

Okay, friends -- and you all are definitely my friends -- let's get a few things straight right now, please:

I don't mind if you guys go at it on here, as long as you remember two things -- one, PLEASE be civil (which, so far, you are all doing, but it's starting to get a little close to the edge).  Also, realize that no one is going to change anyone's mind here.  We all believe what we believe, and one or two details one way or 'tother aren't going to change an ideological bent.  Hell, one or two Big Sweeping Themes aren't going to change it.  Believe me, I've tried.

I am very much in favor of gun control.  I want universal background checks, at least as much insurance and licensing as they have on motorcycles, serious controls on quantity purchases of ammunition, ten cartridges or less to a clip, and a civilian ban on certain automatic and semi-automatic weapons.  No, I don't know the precise details of makes and models of guns, nor of ammunition.  If you start playing those semantic games, I will think less of you.  That's the worst kind of hair-splitting (wastes my time and annoys the pedant).

I understand hunting and target range firing; I understand personal protection.

I do NOT understand walking into grocery stores with an AR-15, as has been done once or twice recently, just because you legally can.  That's not making a legal point; that's intimidation.

I do NOT understand taking a gun into a church, or a school, or a day care center, or a national monument, or a park.  If you want to Kill The Bad Guys that much, join the police or become a security guard or enlist in the French Foreign Legion or something, because you do not GET the concept of church, school, day care, or monuments and parks.

I do NOT understand the notion that we might have to RED DAWN ourselves from an evil government that Takes Over Everything.  They already have, they're called the oligarchy, the corporations, the 1%, and it's too fucking messy and too much trouble for them to come at us with weapons -- they have our money, resources, and the job market.

If you think there's a chance of you winning some kind of armed confrontation with the United States Armed Forces, I hope you've made out your will.  If you seriously think Kim Jong-Un, or Barack Hussien Obama, or anybody else is going to start sending people to reeducation camps, and somehow only you can save the country, you need to step away from the Hannity and Beck and Limbaugh and switch Fox News over to something comparatively soothing.  Like Hell's Kitchen.

As Bill Maher put it recently, "... they actually believe that what protects their rights isn't laws, or courts, it's that they have a gun.  They think that's what keeps the government from going too far.  Without guns, Obama would become an emperor and force everyone to gay marry, but he can't because a guy in Kentucky named Skeeter has a .22".

(He also noted, "It's not your second amendment rights that are under attack, it's all the other ones.")

Finally, I pinned that pic because it touches on something I've thought for pretty much my whole life.  There are, broadly, several different types of gun.  But they ALL are designed to do their job by doing physical damage to someone else.  You can't get away from that.  Even a gun designed specifically for personal defense is, at core, something intended to injure or kill the other guy.  And, given how contemptuous most gun folks I've listened to are about weapons with little stopping power, that means intent to kill.

(he whole thing about woundings rather than killings?  More hair-splitting.  Sheer luck.  Bad design, bad aim, whatever.  In panic situations, you're simply not going to consistently make the other guy take an Arrow In The Knee.)

A hunk of my childhood was spent in a not-so-great part of Detroit.  A pretty darn bad part was just across the Southfield Freeway, a place called Herman Gardens.  Last time I lived out there was 1985-86.  On New Year's Eve, at the stroke of midnight, I lay in my bed, listening to the gunfire.  A lot of it.  I saw all the shot-out windows in my schools.

Anyway.  We can talk about guns until we're all blue in the face, but we're not going to change each other's minds.  I wish that were not the case, but there it is.  Now, at least, you know where I'm coming from.

Love you all.  Carry on.

Originally posted to Music To Save The World By on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 03:26 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Is there any chance that something might change your mind about guns?

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| 61 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    -----
    Tom Smith Online
    I want a leader who shoots for the moon. The last time we had one, we got to the moon.

    by filkertom on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 03:26:47 PM PST

  •  Great summation of the gun issue. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MRA NY, filkertom, Bisbonian

    I must say this:  if guns make you safe than America is the safest country in the world because we have more than any other country.  

  •  one small suggestion to your excellent (8+ / 0-)

    demarcations on acceptable gun control.  I agree with your points except when it comes to your dismissal of arguments over nomenclature.  While some of the argument is semantic in nature, other times, it is essential to hash out exactly what is being proposed.

    An example was a call to ban all guns with magazines.  Except for single shot, double barreled and pepperbox firearms, all multi shot guns have what could be termed magazines or clips. (magazine vs clip is a war unto itself) The tech is old tech, dating to 1866 or earlier, if you are referring to what I call internal clips or magazines (my terms) vs detachable clips or mags.  

    Anyone who is going to propose a measure designed to reduce gun violence would do well to understand the nomenclature well enough to make sure the proposal is spot on.  As with everything else, the Devil is in the details and a poorly worded proposal can lose support even among people who basically agree with you  

    •  This is exactly what happened with the last AWB. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      filkertom, gfv6800, annecros

      The legislation was so poorly worded that it became essentially worthless.  It's vital to fully understand that which you would control.

      •  So word it to encompass, rather than exclude (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mythatsme, Bisbonian, Noddy

        And I do hear exactly what both of you are saying.  My point is, the legislation must be crafted so it's much harder for gun manufacturers to create weapons and tech that will slip through loopholes in said legislation.  Defining and nailing everything down is in fact vital, but it's not going to help if we start obsessing on those details, again, to the detriment of the overall effect, i.e., getting guns off the streets.

        -----
        Tom Smith Online
        I want a leader who shoots for the moon. The last time we had one, we got to the moon.

        by filkertom on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:41:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  yep so a pistol grip was one of the two aspects (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldSoldier99

        necessary for a weapon to be an assault weapon when pistol grips are absolutely ubiquitous.  I think a barrel shroud was also another possible factor (I am working from memory) so a pistol grip and shroud would kick a gun into the assault category, if I remember correctly (which happens less and less frequently)

    •  I understand, exactly what you're saying, but, no (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, Nance, Bisbonian

      Reason being, every time something like this comes up, and the gun control debate starts again, the... let's say, the highly enthusiastic and opinionated gun defenders pummel everyone with that terminology.  Is this gun or that magazine or those rounds conforming to this specific definition of what a gun/magazine/round is?

      With the end result that, again, nothing gets done.

      The idea, I think, is to very deliberately get to a few broadly defined types of weapons tech for civilian use, and to say that anything else is non-civilian and therefore you can't damn have it.  And if the gun experts on both sides can argue about which particular devil is in what particular details, then, by crackie, let's have 'em start with arguing about Heaven, Hell, and Earth first.

      -----
      Tom Smith Online
      I want a leader who shoots for the moon. The last time we had one, we got to the moon.

      by filkertom on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:38:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  if I may suggest that is where you beat them on (0+ / 0-)

        their own ground; if you don't know, there are Kossacks around who are very knowledgeable and who are interested in discussion and not pummeling.  That way you can be precise.  Any law that is written will have to be complex simply because there are so many different configurations of firearms out there and so many times, a poorly written law is worse than no law (Prohibition comes to mind along with TX sodomy laws for an odd pair)

        Also, I would hope that other Kossacks would assist you in parsing the problem that your pummeler is having.  From RKBA to IP to obesity diaries etc., it seems that there is more shouting than listening, more heat than light and more determination to be right rather than to learn.

        For example, the pie fight over round vs bullet is easily resolved by a quick search of gun sites
        http://guntoters.com/...  

  •  Remember, there was no such thing as an American (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    filkertom, Glen The Plumber

    ...until after the invention of the gun.

    Wide spread genocide to seize this nation was impossible before then.

    Guns brought wealth and protection from revenge.

    This is the essence of the American Culture.



    Denial is a drug.

    by Pluto on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:13:55 PM PST

    •  That is to say: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      Such discussions, in America, are coming from lower areas of the brain connected with flight or fight. They are not processed in higher critical-thinking lobes, which might be the case with older cultures who have histories that predate explosive murder weapons as a form of conflict resolution.

      This is why conversations and other left-hemisphere activities cannot address this uniquely American issue.



      Denial is a drug.

      by Pluto on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:42:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Guns helped. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, Bisbonian

      But it's not at all certain it would have been possible without the introduction of "Old World" diseases. Check out the book, 1491 by Charles C. Mann. Amazing reading.

      And remember: At the Battle of the Little Big Horn, Custer's men were out-gunned.

    •  There was no such thing as an American until (0+ / 0-)

      after the invention of the Constitution of the United States of America.

      1232: The Chinese who invented gunpowder (black powder) first used it in a weapon - gunpowder filled tubes aka rockets.
      1364: First recorded use of a firearm - shooter lit wicks by hand that ingnited gunpowder that was loaded into the gun barrel.
      1400s: Matchlock guns - first mechanically firing of guns. Wicks were now attached to a clamp that sprang into gunpowder that was placed in a "flash pan".
      1509: Wheel lock guns - wicks were replaced the wheel lock that generated a spark for igniting the gunpowder.
      1630: Flintlock guns - the flintlock did two things mechanically, it opened the lid of the flash pan and provided an igniting spark.
      The widespread genocide from germs was way more effective, even though basically accidental, than guns available to those who came from a horizontal axis continent to a vertical axis continent.  You really need an AR15 for genocide or kindercide.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 04:54:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  One problem with that image. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annecros, mlbx2

    They go by a few different names. Feral pig. Feral hog. Wild pig. Wild boar is the most recognizable.

    Texas has such a problem with them. They destroy thousands of acres of our food each year. They kill people. And eat people. And Texas has relaxed hunting restrictions on them to the point of nonexistence. Seriously. No restrictions on hunting those wild boar. Daytime, night time, any time is a good time to kill wild boar. With a rifle, from a car, from a jeep, from a helicopter, anything is fine to use to kill wild boar. Spring summer autumn or winter, wild boar is always in hunting season.

    And yet, Texas can't kill enough of them to get the population of that invasive species under control.

    Texas can't shoot their way out of the problem!

    And that evil black rifle is a necessary tool, with the standard 30 round magazine because wild boar travel in herds called "sounders".

    Why is it necessary? Because those things are big, and they will eat you if they can catch/kill you.

    And those wild boar don't keep to the ranches either. Sure, you won't find one rooting around downtown houston, but folks don't have to go to the wilderness to come across a group of them or even just one alone.

    Those things were brought over pre-1700, and exist in most states.

    So, is that image accurate when it says there is no alternate use? Nope.

    It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink. The answer is not more gun control, it's people care.

    by JayFromPA on Sun Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13:52 PM PST

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