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No one really listened to him anyway
No one could have imagined that an institution that took three and a half centuries to admit Galileo was right about the Earth not being the center of the universe might not have its finger on the pulse of its people. But a new New York Times/CBS News poll shows that's exactly what American Catholics think.

The poll has all sorts of interesting findings, all of which make it pretty clear that Catholics—even devout, practicing Catholics—don't share the views of their Church and don't follow its edicts. And while the Church would obviously like everyone to forget about the decades it has spent protecting its pedophile priests from the law, the laity hasn't exactly gotten over that yet:

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican have done a poor job of handling sexual abuse, a significant rise from three years ago. A majority said that the issue had led them to question the Vatican’s authority. The sexual abuse of children by priests is the largest problem facing the church, Catholics in the poll said.
In fact, 69 percent of respondents said the Vatican has done a poor job of dealing with its abuse problems. That's not very surprising, considering the recently resigned pope spent his pre-papal years directing the cover-up. It's not just the Church's refusal to deal with its widespread abuse problem, though, that has made American Catholics cover their ears and sing, "Lalalalala, we can't hear you."
Even Catholics who frequently attend Mass said they were not following the bishops’ lead on issues that the church had recently invested much energy, money and credibility in fighting — artificial birth control and same-sex marriage.
We already know that the majority of Catholic women, like the majority of all American women, have used birth control. When it comes to the Catholic bishops' all-out war on the Obama administration, with outrageous claims and coordinated lawsuits declaring that insurance coverage of birth control is a major and unprecedented attack on their religious liberty, well, once again, that's not how the laity sees it:
But when asked what the debate is about, only 40 percent of Catholics polled said “religious freedom,” while 50 percent said “women’s health and their rights” — an indication that Mr. Obama’s framing of the issue is holding sway even among many Catholics.
The other big organizing principle for the Catholic bishops has been its opposition to marriage equality. Just last week, the bishops officially endorsed the "March for Marriage," organized by the hate group National Organization for Marriage, to protest outside of the Supreme Court on the day it hears oral arguments on California's Proposition 8. Once again, though, the Church is way out of step with its followers, with 62 percent favoring marriage equality—which is actually higher than the 53 percent of all Americans who now support it. But of course the leadership isn't listening to the laity, which might have something to do with why they don't really listen to the leadership. They don't even hold much reverence for the papacy anymore. Almost 80 percent said when it comes to "difficult moral questions," they're "more likely to follow their conscience" than the pope's teachings. Even so, Catholics still think, as the cardinals gather for their super-secret pope-picking conclave, they should select someone who will "bring people back to church, modernize the church, unify the church, and do something about sexual abuse."

And sure. Maybe in another 350 years, that's exactly what they'll do.

Originally posted to Kaili Joy Gray on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 12:42 PM PST.

Also republished by Street Prophets and Daily Kos.

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  •  Tip Jar (193+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli, Themistoclea, cyncynical, viral, catwho, phonegery, michelewln, blueoasis, anodnhajo, BobTheHappyDinosaur, tardis10, CayceP, teknohed, tejanablue, enhydra lutris, leftykook, kevinpdx, implicate order, MRA NY, blackjackal, glitterlust, allergywoman, wintergreen8694, antooo, lgmcp, sobermom, avsp, gizmo59, Aunt Pat, Fishtroller01, Noddy, SixSixSix, tommyfocus2003, irishwitch, Dretutz, GeorgeXVIII, legendmn, Brown Thrasher, Pompatus, Youffraita, rmonroe, CwV, vcmvo2, Vatexia, Betterthansoap, Siri, Livvy5, arizonablue, Kaina PDX, OIL GUY, Senor Unoball, linkage, commonmass, BachFan, jeff in nyc, createpeace, Blue Bell Bookworm, Rogneid, dmhlt 66, Elizaveta, Shadowmage36, onceasgt, howabout, blue muon, stlsophos, marleycat, DaveInTheBox, ExStr8, TigerMom, Sylv, Bill in Portland Maine, econlibVA, Wreck Smurfy, Pat K California, Kinak, GrannyRedBird, cybersaur, gramofsam1, wu ming, FogCityJohn, LSophia, SchuyH, Its a New Day, mslat27, StrayCat, MartyM, skrekk, dpc, Mayfly, CS in AZ, Cassandra Waites, thomask, doraphasia, belinda ridgewood, ruleoflaw, WearyIdealist, Dobber, Steveningen, dejavu, DJ Rix, CoyoteMarti, Norm in Chicago, PeteZerria, madgranny, tb92, skohayes, zooecium, Brooke In Seattle, luckylizard, Kombema, Chi, kevin k, Jollie Ollie Orange, howd, Jane Lew, BadKitties, No one gets out alive, CoExistNow, PaDemTerry, pixxer, Persiflage, MadRuth, Nebraskablue, kerflooey, Munchkn, randallt, Involuntary Exile, Hastur, sturunner, Shrew in Shrewsbury, Smoh, Voiceless, Alice Venturi, wader, Throw The Bums Out, aargh, mama jo, northerntier, 207wickedgood, petulans, BYw, river0, Fe, LilithGardener, johnosahon, pat bunny, SherwoodB, Sharoney, bleeding blue, rbird, tofumagoo, pimutant, Leftcandid, pdx kirk, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Catkin, moonbatlulu, kaliope, Caddis Fly, edsbrooklyn, the good witch, schnecke21, evilstorm, countwebb, srelar, Gemina13, millwood, prfb, maf1029, HarpboyAK, the fan man, Byron from Denver, Oh Mary Oh, Penny GC, cocinero, OLinda, wild hair, Heart of the Rockies, sandblaster, Eyesbright, Pandoras Box, devis1, hopi13, Remediator, unclebucky, MI Sooner, Tennessee Dave, Ahianne, diggerspop, Going the Distance, flycaster, OrdinaryIowan, Ohkwai
  •  Like everyone else (38+ / 0-)

    Catholics pick and choose what they want from the dogma. I have many Catholic friends who had to use birth control for "acne," "PMS," "cramps," and other medical conditions which had NOTHING to do with birth control. LOL!!!

    Eric Cantor can kiss my big old Missouri butt!

    by cyncynical on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 12:48:51 PM PST

  •  Good. nt (10+ / 0-)

    More: Some men think the Earth is round, others think it flat; it is a matter capable of question. But if it is flat, will the King's command make it round? And if it is round, will the King's command flatten it?

    by blueoasis on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 12:50:08 PM PST

  •  Yep - boyfriend's parents are both Catholic (46+ / 0-)

    and over the holidays his mother even said - "I mean honestly, I never cared what people did for birth control, it isn't as if we didn't ALL use it."

    You said the air was singing / it's calling you, you don't believe / These things you've never seen / Never heard, never dreamed.

    by CayceP on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 12:58:23 PM PST

  •  who would let their kids be alone with a priest? (21+ / 0-)

    I don't think I'm a particularly over-protective kind of parent but I can't imagine if I were Catholic, I would ever let my kids out of my sight at church.  I'm know it is a small percentage of Priests that are predators, but knowing the history of just shuffling them around or ignoring the problem, I don't see the point of risking it with my kids.  

  •  What else do you expect (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glitterlust, Rogneid, wu ming

    When faith is the only requirement for eternal, forever-ever, awesome bliss? Good deeds? Pfffftt, who needs 'em?

    •  Isn't That More of an Evangelical Belief Than (20+ / 0-)

      Catholic?

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:13:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (9+ / 0-)

        Fudnies beleive you are saved by faith and grace alone--works do. Even this Pope admitted it's faith and works--and that faith doesn't have to be Catholic, as we were taught during my 17 years of Catholic education.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:26:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does it surprise you that it was Benedict and (0+ / 0-)

          not John Paul II who admitted that? The latter was nothing but a resentful and vain troglodyte; the former is an accomplished scholar who unfortunately has backward views because he's a Christian believer who comes from southern Germany. ;-)

          American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

          by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:42:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong again. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alexandre, Sharoney, tobendaro, corvo

            It was J2P2 (as my Catholic best friend calls him) actually reasserted it. Benny 16 tried to pull back on that.  He also managed to  alienate Muslims and Jews quite a bit with his obnoxious comments. Once upon a time, Ratzinger had some cred as a scholar--but as the Grand Inquisitor, he spent most of his time  either hiding the pedophile scandal or doing his damnedest to destroy other scholars far greater than him--like Hans Kung, the greatest livng theologian in the eyes of everyone but the ancient, decrepit cardinals in the Vatican.  They also silenced the other greatest theological mind 't had an independent thought since the  late 70s.

            Alexandre, for a lot of reasons I follow church developments very closely. I also know Catholic theology pretty well--I had a minor in it in college and I was taught by some pretty damned fine scholars, mot of them silenced by good ol Paul VI and JP2, one laicizsed at his request to marry.  I follow it with the kind of fascimation ex-Mormons and Scientologists do their former faith.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:16:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Benny 16 tried to pull back on the idea that the (0+ / 0-)

              faith by which one is justified can be Protestant? Can you give a reference for that? (Also, I'd like to know what he had to say about the Eastern Orthodox, since that's what I was raised into. Ecumenism is more of a concern to me that interfaith relations.)

              Since I'm a Germanophile, the relationship between the Catholic church and (German) Lutherans/Calvinists interests me (since in religious terms, Germany is divided between the Protestant north and the Catholic south, as I'm sure you know).

              I don't follow RC church developments closely at all. I do have an interest in Lutheranism though, since because of my Germanophilia, I believe that Luther got Christianity right. (I also try to have a minimal understanding of American evangelicalism, because of its impact on American politics.)

              American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

              by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:39:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No I can't. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, Ahianne

                I remember reading it. JP2 said it around 200 give or take a couple of years.  Benny 16 kinda pulled back saying, "Well, yeah, but we're better than anyone else and we can guarantee it and none of those others can."  It surprised me because "Baptism of Desire" which is what I was taught from a young age was carefully restated by JP2 to say that if you ove Deity in whatever form you know him,  and try to lead a life in the spirit of Christ (which I took to mean a decent, loving, human life), you will go to heaven and thus are saved.  Ratzinger, whom I despise, said  he guessed ti was true but all other paths had som falsity in them and people could be led astray....kinda epulling back.  I was appalled.

                I think he  sees Protestants--the original ones like Lutherans--and Anglicans as next in line, along with the Orthodox--I believe some of the fundier Protestants are further down,. then Jews and Muslims.  He didn't go into real detail.

                I am not a Germanophile--but then I have a Jewish grandmother. Whether or not my father would have made it into the camps depended what mood they were in that day.  My Dad's mother's family immigrated from Russia ahead of the pogroms. I've known  Holocaust survivors.   DOesn't mean I dislike Germans but the culture that led up to WWI and WWII really encouraged blind following of leader and never questioning, which made the country sitting ducks for the Nazis in many waya. I went on a kick of reading about the time peior and the culture in the 90s, including the difference between perpetraots and recuers. Fascintaing stuff there.  I live in the aMerican SOuth, which has a similar attitude in many ways--people in fundy churches are raised never to question, and to just accpet., I worry about the abundance of Christian schools springing up around here.

                The LUtheran church--NOT Missouri Synod__ in some of its incarnations isn't all that different from Catholic--and the oens I knew emphasized works as well as faith--just beleiving isn't enough; youi have to put your money where your mouth is--whch is why they're so big on social services.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 08:24:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Pity (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Ahianne

                  It's hard for someone who's not well versed in Papal pronouncements to know what to make of them anyway.

                  This is off-topic, but Luther, even though he came up with sola scriptura, never thought that that doctrine means that you interpret the Bible without reading it from the point of view of the tradition of the (Roman Catholic) church. But in the English speaking world, sola scriptura eventually gave rise to the monster of fundamentalism, according to which it is possible to interpret the Bible without adopting the perspective of any tradition at all.

                  American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

                  by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 08:49:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Fundamentalism is only 100-150 years old. (4+ / 0-)

                    For me, the problem isn't reading the Bible according to a particular tradition, but reading it without any knowledge of historical context.  THe Southern Baptist Convention actually has seminaries or colleges where people study for ordination. Most of the  wild-eyed churches don't. You can self-ordain.  Their preachers are just as ignorant as their congregation.  It's the blind leading the blind. Their preachers never study the Bible with a knowledge of the original languages in which it was written--just in the kKV which anyone who knows something about history realizes is seriously flawed because the schoalrs translating it had to please the king, who had some serious hangups on certain subjects.

                    Troutfishing and dogemperor have some excellent diaries on this subject of American fundamentalism.

                    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                    by irishwitch on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:22:39 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Luther didn't want to discard the need for (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  irishwitch, Ahianne

                  Christians to do good works just because they were justified through faith.
                  He said that faith without good works is a dead faith.
                  Lutherans are always reminded of that component of faith.

              •  Not entirely sure that I would agree that Luther (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ahianne

                got Christianity right.
                He was horribly anti-Semitic.

      •  It goes back to Luther (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, Sharoney

        It's not specifically evangelical.

        Sola fide

        American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

        by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:14:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually... (18+ / 0-)

      That is more of a protestant belief than a Catholic one - ironically.  Catholics believe you must have good works too.

      'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

      by RichM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:41:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  American Catholics aren't nearly all (14+ / 0-)

    the world's catholics.

    U.S. homes only around 6% of the world's catholics.

    Hell, Mexico has many more than we do.


    "Just because you win the fight, don't mean you're right," - Funkadelic

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:06:13 PM PST

  •  Seems to me that anyone truly interested (11+ / 0-)

    in spirituality, can put two and two together:  whatever it is that God is, or wants, it can't possibly be centered on the importance of interfering with other people.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:13:59 PM PST

  •  I am one of those Catholics (35+ / 0-)

    I'm very active in my parish.  I'm on the parish council, serve as a lector at Mass, and I taught CCD for 4 years.  I also served on the Child Protection team in the parish for 7 years.  And I have never hidden that I'm a staunch liberal and stand in opposition to every political stand the Church takes.  The powers that be are totally out of touch with the people in the pews.

    For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

    by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:14:36 PM PST

    •  I'm not Catholic but what you said (14+ / 0-)
      The powers that be are totally out of touch with the people in the pews.
      agrees with everything I've read -- especially about American Catholics.

      I think the nuns are more in tune with the people, and that's why the hierarchy needs to shut them down.

      Men.  feh

      Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

      by Youffraita on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:33:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the nuns... (20+ / 0-)

        Are totally besides themselves with this Pope.  I have an aunt by marriage who is a nun.  She was given a 'test' to determine just how 'catholic' she was.  And they were told that their mission was to stop contraception, abortion and teh gay - not to minister to the poor in their community.  She is a conservative Catholic and she was totally pissed about this.

        'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

        by RichM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:45:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah...what you said is (9+ / 0-)

          basically what I've read elsewhere.

          I think the nuns are great.

          Irony takes a worse beating from Republicans than Wile E. Coyote does from Acme. --Tara the Antisocial Social Worker

          by Youffraita on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:47:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So are all the nuns (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites, sobermom, LSophia

          I saw the Nuns on the Bus tour last summer when they were going around the country presenting their "Faithful Budget" as a rebuke specifically to the Ran Budget. They were great. They spoke across the street from a long-running hunger center. That wasn't accidental. One of our Ohio congresspeople has proposed the leader of that tour, Sister Simone Campbell, for Pope. In his dreams.

          Jon Husted is a dick.

          by anastasia p on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:50:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only thing that makes me hold back (7+ / 0-)

            from really trashing the Catholic Church in America are the nuns.  I was very fortunate to know Pat Farrell, who was the president of the nun's union (Conference of Women Religious?).  She earns and is due a great deal of respect.  It's truly offensive that she is not at least the equivalent of a priest, and she'd be a better archbishop than any of that whole lot.

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:01:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Joan Chittister (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sobermom, tobendaro

              would also make an awesome Cardinal.  

              It's incredibly irritating that the RC church doesn't ordain women.  It would solve a huge amount of their problems if they did - and if they allowed priests (of either gender) to marry.

              •  She is all kinds of amazing n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LSophia, tobendaro

                For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

                by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:31:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's extremely irritating (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LSophia, Remediator

                ..to a lot of us Catholics too.

                Years ago we had a pastor who wrote a letter that was published in the Columbus Dispatch, urging the Church to consider resuming allowing priests to marry. When I congratulated him on that, he said that he was in favor of ordaining women too. He later left the priesthood to marry. We now have a pissant priest who's been harassing a gay member of our choir.

                Cogito, ergo Democrata.

                by Ahianne on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:28:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I worked for nuns at my first paycheck-job, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            millwood, tobendaro, sobermom, Ahianne

            washing dishes in a retreat center.

            A fishbone set of religious women who helped the poor directly - not only by providing food and clothing but by teaching job-interview skills and the like. One was a goldsmith who made her money by making chalices for wealthier parishes - but provided engagement rings and wedding bands for whatever her poor constituents could pay (one traded a bag of Blue Chip Stamp books).

            In the immortal words of Henry Blake on M*A*S*H, "they don't come any nunner."

            (I later gave them a wee bit of immortality by writing a story about a convent in Hell, providing comfort to the damned.)

            Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

            by gardnerhill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 09:25:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why do they stay?? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sobermom, Pandora

          Why not break off? What's keeping them?

          •  Even Luther didn't want to break away (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sobermom, BigOkie

            from the Church. He wanted to reform it.
            One of his hymns has the verse:
            "Give Thy Church, Lord, to see/Days of peace and unity."
            He seemed to really have wanted unity.
            Luther broke away when he realized there was no more he could do without betraying his beliefs--"Here I stand, I can do no more"--and was excommunicated.
            I think most reformers love the Church and the Christian message and aren't willing to surrender it to the corruption of its leaders.

          •  A Catholic splinter church run by nuns? (5+ / 0-)

            Now that might bring even me, and my children who have never seen the insideo f a church, back into the fold!

            If you want something other than the obvious to happen; you've got to do something other than the obvious. Douglas Adams

            by trillian on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:51:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's my question too ~ (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            If the leadership is so morally bankrupt, why would anyone want to continue to be associated?  It's not like it (the leadership) is going to be reformed anytime soon.  Maybe my question or lack of understanding is totally stupid, but I truly don't get it.

            •  Probably several things (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sobermom, BigOkie, Ahianne

              ... 1) the essential message of the Church, in terms of approaching an individual's relationship with God, self and others rings true, 2) the liturgy and sacraments support and enhance the message described in #1 and 3) there's both moral and social support to be gained from belonging to a group of fellow believers.  Those are part of what keeps me a member.

              And I think that the title of this diary is an overstatement. Disagreement with the church hierarchy over which issues are most important doesn't mean that people don't care what they say.  Apply the same analysis to the corporatist Democratic party structure and ask if you get the same result.  Yes, they are out of touch, but they are certainly important and relevant.

              "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

              by gsbadj on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 03:03:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  My very elderly in-laws (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sobermom

      are FDR New Deal democrats, and devout Catholics.  They ignore the political BS and seem to be far more immune to it than either my wife and I.  We both get outraged.  They never seemed to care - they spent eight decades accepting what's good about the church, and rejecting what's bad.  Seems like a pretty good way to deal with it.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:43:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "a pretty good way to deal with it."??? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LSophia

        Bill, if they,and all concerned Catholics, really want "2 deal with it" just stop donating money 2 the church. Yes, it is likely that hoi paloi Catholics may have 2 suffer as church monies fall, but hit the big wigs in the church wallet and see
        how fast it gets their attention.
        And yes, Catholic Charities may also suffer as a result of a church that is undergoing financial depletion . All I can offer 2 U in response 2 my understanding about that suffering is that I seem to recall that the glorified Mother Teresa herself
        ...glorified suffering.

    •  Please answer a question for me. (8+ / 0-)

      I am truly curious, but my Catholic friends can't seem to answer. Why do American Catholics keep supporting these men? If you know your church has been taken over by those who do evil, doesn't God require that you speak out and refuse to aid them in any way? Why not break off and reform the Church in the hands of true men of God? It seems to me that the second it was known that the Pope had hidden child rapists, all the Catholic people should have fought back to save their Church from evil. Why doesn't that happen?

      "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

      by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:12:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please, any Catholics, I would love to hear (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sobermom

        your reasoning. I've been told that some stay because of the good things the Church does, but couldn't a reformed Church do the same good deeds without defending the bad?

        Anyone?

        "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

        by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:19:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You posted this as I was writing my response (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tobendaro, TRsCousin

          What reformed church are you talking about?  Who would start it?  I used to go to Dignity but then they brought in liturgical dance and I was done.  It's ridiculous.  And eventually you end up with the same problem as now, who is to say that whatever reform church you're thinking of doesn't get taken over by crazy lay people?  It isn't like some of the evangelical churches that pop up here and there run by a minister who puts himself in charge.  The faith doesn't work that way.  I know that it is hard to understand from the outside.  But that doesn't mean that those who choose to reform from within are there supporting the hierarchy and the abuse of children.  Hardly.

          For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

          by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:30:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I respect what you said in your other comment, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sobermom

            and I don't mean to suggest that you start a new Church. I'm wondering what would happen if a hundred million American Catholics stood up, said "We will not allow evil in our ranks," and simply refused to acknowledge the authority of anyone who had done evil. If you only keep good, honest leaders, fight for control of the wealth, and take back your church. Of course, such a thing could go wrong, but if you are truly doing God's will, it would be bound to be better than what you currently have. I know it wouldn't be easy, in fact I assume it would be one of the greatest fights of human history. But isn't it the right thing to do?

            Fighting individually is good, but how much farther must the Church slide before it becomes clear that the cleaning that needs to be done must be on a huge, systemic scale?

            "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

            by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:54:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Our archdiocese isn't perfect (6+ / 0-)

              but it is much improved.  We rid ourselves of the cardinal who allowed the child abuse to happen.  We had many priests defrocked.  We have strong institutional support for both the victims of sexual abuse by clergy, and for the prevention of further abuse.  We were able to rewrite the policies and procedures on how to handle any reports of sexual abuse by a priest.  I believe that much of that came from the day where the active members of parishes gathered together to make it clear that we were done with our former cardinal.  We presented such a clear and united front that our current cardinal came in knowing that the archdiocese was speaking as one voice regarding the protection of children rather than priests.

              I also have the current issue in my parish where, after being in the parish for 21 years, there has been turmoil in the past year with a couple who moved to the parish and want to take over everything.  They have caused a lot of problems in the parish and it has become divided in a way that it never was before.  So I'm living the experience currently of power-seeking-driven-by-ego-and-self laypeople.  Which is why I'm not hot for the prospect of a church run by laypeople, or wackos like William Donahue, any more than I'm thrilled with Rome.

              The Church also has a long history of corruption, which then is transformed by people who stay and fight the good fight.  It happened in the time of St Francis and it happened more recently in the time of Dorothy Day.

              And I see it in other institutions as well.  I have great Senators and Representatives who were elected by the people, but should I not vote because they have to work with assholes like Ryan, Boehner, and McConnell--should we all just form a new government because they're power-seeking-driven-by-ego-and-self lunatics?  I have limited power to have a say in who represents other states.  I also have limited power to make changes in the Church.  But just as it has been people who are corrupting a perfectly fine system of checks and balances, it is also people who are corrupting a perfectly fine religion of sacraments.

              I do what I can in my corner of influence fighting the good fight.  Just as I do with voting and working for candidates in my state, I show up and speak up and do what I can to facilitate change in my archdiocese.  And I do know that I have made a difference.  My archdiocese is far better than most on being transparent about the sexual abuse of children by clergy.  They still suck on choice, marriage equality, and focusing too much on conservative political causes.  But I'm not going to lose out on something meaningful because they're problematic.

              For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

              by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 09:15:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I stay for the sacraments (9+ / 0-)

        And I will not let men drive me out of the Church.  I believe in the sacraments and they feed my spirituality in a way that other religious practices don't.  And I have spoken out.  There are plenty of ways to reform.  I choose to do so from within.  I served on the Review Board for my archdiocese where I was quite outspoken on behalf of the victims and the need for strong consequences for priests who abused children.  

        I will also tell you that while I haven't been to Rome, I did attend a day in our archdiocese, called by the Cardinal, where he wanted to hear from active Catholics in the parishes.  I was sitting close enough to see his reaction close up, and to see the shock on his face when group after group stood up and called for his resignation.  We were who he considered to be his people, and none of us were having it.  He was absolutely stunned and his face went white with shock.  He did resign.  Unfortunately, Rome moved him into a position there.

        I'm not interested in starting a new church.  I'm interested in reforming the one I'm in.  I give to my parish collection, because it keeps the heat on and the parking lot plowed.  But I haven't paid a cent to the Archdiocese or to the American Catholic Church collections.  I don't trust them.

        But I'm also not about to let them win.  Why should I lose connection with what enhances my spirituality and makes my life better just because they're assholes?  I made a decision decades ago that I was not going to allow them to win and to deprive me of something that feeds my soul.

        So I stick around and speak truth to power and speak up in lay groups so that others in the pews know that there are other pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro all things Democrat sitting beside them.  And the priests know it as well.  When this newly resigned awful Pope was appointed, I received a condolence call from a priest friend to see if I'd heard the news.  I told him I was surprised he hadn't heard my screams across the city.

        So we do fight back as much as we can, and we have made some differences.  In the meantime, they are not going to rob me of the sacraments.

        For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die--Ted Kennedy

        by sobermom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:21:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. That is a wonderful reason. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sobermom, tobendaro

          Not being Catholic, the sacraments had never even occurred to me. Fighting from the inside is something that all of us at DK should understand. I can only hope that there are many more like you. I wish you all the best. The world will be a much better place if you succeed.

          "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

          by tb92 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:36:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  sobermom I am a "None" no, not a Nun... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Penny GC, sobermom

          ... Ur "G-d" does not play a part in my daily life other than as a concept of idle interest 2 me BUT I would like U 2 kno that I greatly admire U and what U do.

          As a DK writer says in his sign off "tell me what U do & I will
          tell U what U R"... 4 me U R are a good person seemingly of brave heart.

          Take comfort from UR Sacraments & Rituals. We R all entitled, IMO, to comfort in our lives ( that includes lower animals than man also) as long as we do not harm others 2 get it.

  •  Church members need to speak up.... (11+ / 0-)

    It's frustrating to see the Church swinging its dick around, wading into policy and government issues that effect all people, when so many Catholics seem to ignore or disagree with Church philosophies and edicts in their own day-to-day lives. I get that the Church is a hierarchy and questioning leadership can be seen as a sin, but the Church holds sway because of the support and financial contributions of its members. If the Church sees its disconnect with its members as an existential threat, it's hard to believe they wouldn't adapt.

    I think I've read before that 98% of Catholic women have used birth control. That the Church still considers birth control to be a sin and injects itself into what is, essentially, a public health issue, is outrageous given how many Catholic women and men depend on it.

    •  In an odd sort of way (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SixSixSix, Cassandra Waites, tb92

      they don't see it as an existential threat.  This is what amazes me about Catholicism, and for family reasons I've gotten a closer look than I'd ever intended.  

      The priests blather on about religious freedom and the evils of birth control, and it seems to have no effect whatsoever on the people in the pews.  

      This seems strange to me, as a non-believer.  If the priests have authority, and if they are right about God's intentions, then how is it that someone can blithely accept these contradictions, remain a Catholic, and ignore some teachings while embracing others?  I'm glad people are exercising judgment, but I kind of don't get it.  Maybe I'm a bit too anal... if they keep telling you things that are patently false or ridiculous, at what time to you start questioning whatever else they are telling you?

      But cognitive dissonance doesn't seem to be an issue.  Certainly the Catholic Church is not confronting an existential issue over their position on birth control.  I think the real threat is their historical and ongoing inability to deal with child sexual abuse, but that's another story.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:49:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, as an Atheist, I don't get it either. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        207wickedgood

        Though that sort of picking and choosing isn't exclusive to Catholicism by a long stretch.

        The Church takes a lot of heat (rightfully) for prohibiting birth control and condoms in places where poverty and AIDS are epidemics. Seeing how many Catholics here in the U.S. go ahead and use condoms and birth control anyway, I'd be curious to know how much of a difference lifting the prohibition would actually make in those regions. Certainly, it wouldn't hurt, but would it make that much of a difference?

        Again, I'm a heathen non-believer, but if sex outside of marriage, homosexuality, prostitution, etc. are already sins, how does using condoms make them worse?

      •  because there are things that matter (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro, SixSixSix, Ahianne

        and things that don't. Love matters. The rest doesn't. Priests don't have infallibility by virtue of their position; they make mistakes, laypeople can disagree, that's never been an issue. Just because they talk bullshit about homosexuality and birth control doesn't mean that everything else they say is automatically disqualified--at the heart of the faith is the injunction to love your fellow man, and real Catholics get that.

        •  No, but that's my point... (0+ / 0-)

          If so many Catholics are against the Church's teachings on sexual and public health issues, why isn't here more pressure on leadership from the Church's membership?

          Catholics do a lot of good. Having traveled to some awfully poor places, I see that they have charity infrastructure in place that provides a lot of life-saving services to people. Most Catholics are (rightfully) proud of this service to their fellow man. That's a good thing. But membership can also push the Church to adapt its teachings, or to stay out of political matters. Seems like they could, anyway, and I'm curious why there doesn't seem to be a big push in that direction...

          •  Which membership? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ahianne

            The Roman Catholics and Anglicans form the left flank of Christianity in most of Latin America, Africa and South Korea.  Evangelicals and Pentecostals are on the rise, and they tend to be of the fire-and-brimstone variety, or at least the Rios Montt variety (diddling with Reagan's CIA).  You may remember the witch hunter at Sarah Palin's church.  

            The Evangelicals and Protestants may even be the Religious Center in parts of Africa, with Saudi-influenced Islam on the right.  Pagan practices still extant vary greatly, and not all of them are conducive to the full development of every human being.

            So American voices that pull in a liberal direction are probably drowned out by voices from the global South that demand that "every jot and tittle of the law be fulfilled".  

            "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

            by Yamaneko2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:47:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The men (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Penny GC, Ahianne

        and their rules are not the Church. I am, and everyone else who participates in the sacraments.  We go to be fed in our search, to continue, to grow, to learn.  We ignore the evil because we cannot do much but keep the pressure on and starve them finacially although, that is a small prick in their skin.  In the end they will lose. I am canstantly swinging between leaving and staying.   One of my biggest reasons to stay is to not let the men chase me out.  I am not one to give in or give up.

        Everyone! Arms akimbo!

        by tobendaro on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 05:28:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  When my daughter was attending (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        diggerspop, tobendaro

        Catholic school, the president of the parents' association got up to talk about a fundraiser after returning from having her fourth child.  She started her talk by saying," I just had my fourth child, my son, and I am here to say that I have done my Catholic duty.  I am done.  And will, therefore, be back to help with fundraising."  She looked over at our pastor and turned red as a beet because she realized what she had just admitted in front of him.  Good man that he is -- he just smiled and applauded with everyone else.

        This wonderful pastor -- who is brilliant and compassionate -- allowed me to screen an Inconvenient Truth for the parish -- was the priest the bishop sent in to investigate and heal other parishes after sex abuse charges were made public.  When he returned from his last round of those duties, he looked at me and several others in a meeting and said that the charges made about Father Kelly abusing an altar boy were not valid.  I believed him.

        Last year, after Father Kelly fled to Ireland, after yet another round of charges, it was reported in our local paper that the Diocese, when Mahoney was our bishop here in Stockton, knew about Father Kelly and had sent him out for rehabilitation.  I had left the Church before last year for a long list of reasons, including the American Bishops' weekly crazy statements, Prop 8, and the botched handling of peadophelia throughout the country, but this revelation slammed the door shut for me forever -- although I miss Mass.  I will never know if our wonderful pastor knew about Father Kelly and lied, or if the truth was hidden from him (the pastor) by the bishop.

        "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

        by Going the Distance on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:32:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  They are happy with a smaller, more hard line (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      207wickedgood, Sharoney, maf1029

      church in the US. They want to cull out the progressives. They're going gangbusters recruiting in Latin America and Mexico so they don't need to futz around humoring us Vatican II Libs anymore. There's no existential worry about the empty US pews. The hardliners who fill the pew with 9 kids and vote Republican keep opening their wallets so they're satisfied.

      •  That strategy won't get them far. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CoExistNow, SixSixSix, Ahianne

        Third world peoples don't like their children attacked any more than we do.  With the communication we have today their honey pot won't be sweet for long.  I understand the discontent has already begun.

        Everyone! Arms akimbo!

        by tobendaro on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 05:35:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, Latin America is changing on social issues.. (0+ / 0-)

        You're seeing liberalization on social issues in Latin America as well. Many of those countries are relaxing their laws on consensual crimes, or had lax laws in the first place (prostitution, drug possession, gambling). I think Mexico state has legalized gay marriage (not sure about mother Mexican states), and homosexuality seems to be pretty widely accepted in most urban areas throughout the country (I saw a ton of gay bars in Tijuana in December). Brazil is kind of famous for being a Catholic country that's also pretty open, sexually. Central America, having been to Guatemala, I'm not sure homosexuality and abortion would be so acceptable there, but Guatemala is also more evangelical than most other countries in Latin America. No idea about other countries in Central America. I'm pretty sure Daniel Ortega has taken a hard stance against legal abortion since he's resumed power in Nicaragua.

        So I'm not sure they can gain much traction when movement seems to be heading in the right direction.

    •  Speak up, I've started many years ago by walking (6+ / 0-)

      out of a mass as the priest was speaking.  Doing this alone while everyone was sitting listening to him wasn't easy.  This lead me to letting go of the Catholic church and all other religions.  I am free.

      Do not adjust your mind, there is a flaw in reality.

      by Shrew in Shrewsbury on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:37:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ANd the other 10% have ALzheimer's... (11+ / 0-)

    ADVANCED ALzheimer's.

    I'm 63. EVERY SINGLE CATHOLIC WOMEN I knew used birth control--which is why none of them have mroe than 3 kids, unlike the parents of my friends who often grew up in families where there 6+ children.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:22:18 PM PST

  •  I don't have much time (11+ / 0-)

    I am involved in a lot of things.  I grew up in the RC church.  Love my former teachers, many nuns and priests.  No longer do I care what they think.  The church has become irrelevant.  Being gay, and being essentially a socialist/Progressive American, I do not give a fuck what the Pope thinks.  Unless.  Unless, the new Pope is progressive and oriented toward the future.  He must be.

    How I love the future.  I am over sixty and not in great health.  I have a son, daughter-in-law and two grandchildren.  The earth is theirs.  They are not Catholic.  There was a time when I regretted that my grandchildren were not baptized Roman Catholic.  I no longer care.

    •  Brotherly advice (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      schnecke21

      coming from a non-believer.  The church is more than the hierarchy.  If you want to be a Catholic, and you are clear with your own conscience, then be a Catholic and don't let them tell you that you are not. I have quite a few very close Catholic friends (and some relatives) and the authoritarian conservatives don't get to define the religion or keep it for themselves.  As far as being gay and Catholic, if you miss the church or still find yourself a believer, you might want to read Andrew Sullivan, who seems to negotiate that pretty well.  Like I say, I'm not Catholic but it offends me when those who are get forced out of something meaningful for themselves.  With all the manifest failings and flaws of the leadership, they don't have standing to push you out of your church or away from your beliefs.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:07:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What does all this say about someone who (16+ / 0-)

    belongs to an institution, gives money to it, knows it's corrupt and doesn't follow its rules?

    Why stay in it? Why enable the corruption? What is the hold this institution has over people that would cause them to behave so irrationally?  

    I think it's fear. Fear that if they leave the church, they will die unblessed and go to hell.  If that isn't a classic example of brainwashing and cult behavior, I don't know what is.

    How can anyone of good conscience continue to participate in, expose their children to, and tithe to this monstrousity of an institution?

    Liberal Catholics need to realize that they will NEVER change this institution and walk out the doors... fast!

    •  I ask this question all the time... eom (4+ / 0-)

      'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

      by RichM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:47:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed. I 'voted w/ my feet' decades ago (8+ / 0-)

      and have never regretted it--very happy in my Unitarian Universalism!

      [Take the Belief-o-matic quiz....]

      "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

      by bartcopfan on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 02:56:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The RCC is openly sexist and homophobic. (6+ / 0-)

      Like you, I also wonder why anyone remains in the Roman Catholic Church.  What's more, I fail to understand how anyone who considers himself a progressive can remain part of an institution that is openly and rabidly sexist and homophobic.  Would these same people remain members of other organizations with similar beliefs?  If not, why do they make an exception for the church?

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 02:59:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What... (0+ / 0-)

        What's the basis for all that moral authoritarianism and objective truth-speak on your part? Lot of moralizing for someone that, I presume, doesn't really like pontificating.

        •  So you have no answers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FogCityJohn, Voiceless, Fishtroller01

          to FogCityJohn's questions?

          Good to know.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 06:59:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fishtroller01

          "Moral authoritarianism"?  Would you care to define your term?  I mean, it sounds really scary and all, but I was really just asking what I think are pretty obvious questions.  As a so-called "libertarian Catholic," perhaps you'd like to provide some answers.  

          If you continue to be a member of the Catholic Church, how do you justify your support for an organization that makes no secret of its homophobia and sexism?  How can you continue to support an organization that has been involved in a decades-long attempt to obstruct justice in the now infamous sexual abuse cases?

          But perhaps asking such tough moral questions of you is what you consider "moral authoritarianism."

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:28:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Cultural identity, connection, (0+ / 0-)

        longing to connect with the divine, a love of the Mass, Catholic art, music, and the idea that embracing the divine is the source of loving service to others.

        That's why I stayed in as long as I did.  It's the hierarchy, and the large percentage of mean, conservative Catholics  where I live  -- and the history of the priests who abused children and were still serving Mass fifteen months ago that drove me out.

        I miss being a Catholic.  And while I have flirted with other Churches, they don't feel the same.  But I will always live my life in service to others as my way to give thanks to the divine for my wonderful, albeit challenging, life.

        "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

        by Going the Distance on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:05:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good for you. You made a hard (0+ / 0-)

          choice.  I'm not sure what you mean by "the divine", but it seems to me that the feelings you get about that are all generated by your own brain. Therefore, wherever your brain goes, so goes your connection with that "divine" thing. Actually all that is just imaginary, you know, but whatever floats your boat.

          •  Imaginary? Neuroscience is actually (0+ / 0-)

            tracking the faith part of the brain.  I would say more tuned-in, like a quality radio receive.

            "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

            by Going the Distance on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 06:06:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, there is a sort of "faith" area of the brain, (0+ / 0-)

              but is it not "receiving" any information from outside. When that area of the brain is destroyed by stroke or other reasons, the person loses their ability to "believe" or conjure up the "faith" feelings and emotions they had before.  This has been documented.

    •  My Episcopal church (5+ / 0-)

      is packed with gay people who got tired of the Catholic church telling them they were "intrinsically disordered."

      Jon Husted is a dick.

      by anastasia p on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:53:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm a former RC Episcopalian now (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LSophia

        Not gay, just sick of it all. Italian-American, raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through high school. Almost at my 20-year anniversary of being re-confirmed in TEC. I've always loved being part of a spiritual community and I've found one that embraces me, so I am lucky.

        The braying sheep on my TV screen make this boy shout -- make this boy scream -- I'm going underground...

        by jamfan on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 05:15:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

        Considering Episcopalian, Anglican and mainstream Protestant communities are floundering. Guess yours is the exception.

        •  Of course they're floundering. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          devis1, Fishtroller01

          They're only waystations on the path from superstition to knowledge and understanding.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:00:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hey Libertarian... (0+ / 0-)

          I sense a bit of arrogance on your part.  Catholicism is the biggest floudering fish in the world.  Can't happen fast enough for me.

    •  The distinctiveness (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites, tobendaro

      & dailyness of Roman Catholic practice is difficult to duplicate outside of the Church. More & more Catholics are inclined to to disregard  these practices anyway (& many were when I was a kid), & for them I doubt Catholicism means much except as a family inheritance they no longer much value.   But those who do,  & derive great spiritual comfort from them, several Catholics I know, find ways of steering their financial contributions into programs & missions they support. It is very important to listen to Catholics & ex-Catholics. They have stories to tell. Some have had their hearts broken. Others have found ways of adapting, & of raising children as responsible, progressive, compassionate Catholic human beings, of using the Church to act with love & charity.

      "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

      by DJ Rix on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:56:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I understand much of that, as my journey from (0+ / 0-)

        Protestantism to atheism was a long hard slog. What I learned on that journey is that compassion is not related to religion, it's related to humanism. Some people have good hearts and some don't. While they may feel that it is religious teachings that made them behave that way, I think they would have been good charitable people no matter what they were taught.

        For Catholics (I have many Catholic friends) part of the difficulty is that it is almost a cultural identity, like being Irish or German or even Jewish.  It is hard to leave when that is so engrained as a personal identity.

        I encourage people to walk out the doors for a couple of reasons.  One, they are suffering from institutional humiliation. Two, as long as the Catholic church gets their money, it will continue to make life miserable for the rest of us.  Look at all the holds that church has on our laws and our lives. All over this country, women are denied their reproductive rights because this country allows the Church to own hospitals.  

        I truly do want to see this institution fail and fade away, and it won't happen unless thinking Catholics walk out.

        •  I do not encourage Catholics (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TRsCousin

          to walk away, & I am familiar with Catholicism in a way few protestants are, & value the cultural "distinctiveness,"  which had rich ethnic qualities when I was growing up.   A protestant-turned-atheist has zilch credibility. It is arrogance to presume Catholics are unaware of the institutional failings,  ignorant of the options, mistaken in their beliefs because one does not share those beliefs,  & unable to make choices. Your "hard slog" is your experience.

          "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

          by DJ Rix on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 01:51:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The cultural "distinctiveness" (0+ / 0-)

            that you feel trumps the "protestant turned atheist" experience is simply an example of the fact that the Catholic church has woven a tighter web of fallacies and nonsense around their adherents brains. In other words, they are better at brainwashing than most Protestant churches.   It's not "arrogance" to make the observations I make about people who stay inside of something that is so incredibly corrupt and destructive. It's concern and sympathy. The same one would feel for anyone else who's mind is captured by a cult and who can't even see what it is doing to them and to the world.

            "Rich ethnic qualities" is a meaningless description of a community if that community is formulated by an institution based on lies and immorality.

            •  "Rich ethnic qualities" DJ Dix says (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fishtroller01

              IMO ,not that it would be likely to change his opinion, he needs to read "Constantine's Sword" written by an ex priest
              and certainly gives the lie to Catholic understanding of what Cultural Distinctiveness is and respect for it if it is someone elses cultural distinctiveness.

            •  I think you need to back off (0+ / 0-)

              & demonstrate the best example of true tolerance, which is listening. Your "concern" & "sympathy" may be from arrogance.

              "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

              by DJ Rix on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:07:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, because there is absolutely (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                DJ Rix

                no arrogance in the belief that your religion has the only keys to heaven.

                However, you are right. I have absolutely no sense of tolerance for the Catholic Church.  Note I said the Church. I "tolerate" my Catholic friends all the time by just listening to the angst and interior conflict this religion is bringing them.

    •  My thoughts on this have changed (5+ / 0-)

      I don't think its fear.  Like so much of human behavior, I think it has to do partially with identity - someone raised within a church finds that a fundamental aspect of their personality, and membership in a community is a powerful thing.  I also think it's partially aesthetic.  Religion can give one a context within which not just to explain the world, but to appreciate the world.  

      Now, I was blissfully raised without religion and don't have a shred of faith in me.  I don't frankly see religion as a useful way to explain the world. But strangely enough, while I've become more sceptical of those who use religion to explain the world I've become more... well, empathetic... to those who see religion as a way to appreciate the world.  Any honest (or intelligent) religious person will tell you that doubt is actually central to faith.  It does seem to me at the end of the day, religious people may have doubts but take an aesthetic choice to err in favor of belief.  Anyway, with thoughtful religious people, I don't think faith is easily reduceable to motives of fear or rigidity.  At least not in the religious people I know.  

      Perhaps that contrast between skepticism in the 21st century about religion's explanatory value versus embrace of its aesthetic value explains why so many can remain Catholic while ignoring so much of the Church's teaching.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:21:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a 2000 year old institution, or so. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cgvjelly, Sharoney, evilstorm

      Why don't you renounce your citizenship if you don't want to participate in and pay taxes for things our government does that you disagree with? Or denounce the nation as a whole. for the "sins" of your political opponents.

      A lot of people are Catholic because they are born and raised Catholic and that identity supersedes what other individuals, whether in the clerical hierarchy or lay people, say or do.

      I went to a secular high school where sexual abuse of students occurred. I was educated at that school. That's just a fact. It occurs quite prevalently outside the confines of the Catholic church.

      Being a Catholic is just a fact sometimes. And despite what people may think, it's very much an individualized experience.

      Also what is newsworthy about the Catholic church makes up a tiny proportion of what the Catholic Church consists of.

      My particular church is very liberal. Very liberal priests. I don't want to change them.

    •  Why stay in? Why enable? (0+ / 0-)

      Reminds me of how I felt as an American during the Bush Administrations.

      If you want something other than the obvious to happen; you've got to do something other than the obvious. Douglas Adams

      by trillian on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:57:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  FishtrollerGiven wha U sa Here ma B place 4 SNARK (0+ / 0-)

      Noting a comment way above saying," belief in whether the Holy Spirit proceeds with the Father and the Son or through the Father and the Son.
      I must wonder: If the Holy Spirit were elected to head the Catholic Church, coming through the Father & the Son would it possibly be referred to as THE POOP?

  •  Well, that's a relief! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CoExistNow

    I'd hate to think that the Pope and the RC church actually held sway in America.
    We're better than that.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:40:11 PM PST

  •  Gee, maybe some of those people who disagree (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glorificus, Southern Lib, CoExistNow

    could stop giving the catholic church money that they use to cover up sexual abuse and attack gay people, birth control, and women's health care.

    Republican threats amount to destroying the present if we don't allow them to destroy the future too. -MinistryOfTruth, 1/1/2013

    by sleipner on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 02:51:56 PM PST

    •  I wonder if it would even matter if the people (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tobendaro

      in the pews gave less.  There is an unlimited pot of $$$ to buy the political backing of the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

      “The future depends entirely on what each of us does every day.” Gloria Steinem

      by ahumbleopinion on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:56:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "an unlimited pot of $$$"? (0+ / 0-)

        then why is the hierarchy letting old long firmly established Catholic Churches with very old parishioners close because they, the old ones,  can no longer financially support the financial needs of that church at a needed financial level as I understand that to be occurring?

  •  the laity needs a better clergy n/t (5+ / 0-)
  •  Can I just say (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nocynicism, houyhnhnm

    That guy, that Ratzinger pope, is really scary looking.

    Goblins ain't in it.

    “Good things don’t come to those who wait. They come to those who agitate!” Julian Bond

    by Dvalkure on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:08:15 PM PST

  •  This is the "secret sauce" of Catholicism at work. (5+ / 0-)
    Once again, though, the Church is way out of step with its followers, with 62 percent favoring marriage equality—which is actually higher than the 53 percent of all Americans who now support it.
    The "secret sauce" of Catholicism, at least as practiced by most Catholics in this country, seems to be "love everybody and leave them alone."  They also have a cultural memory of persecution and discrimination at the hands of Protestants, and prefer to do unto others as they would be done by.  It's reasons like this that makes me want to go back to the Roman Catholic Church at times.  

    But then their teachings come back:  the funding of an organization is collaboration with that organization.  The works of the hierarchy have been exhaustively discussed and denounced, so funding them may be collaboration with evil.  

    The diocese and the bishop will get their cut -- if you write "For Parish Use Only" on the check, the diocese will take its cut from cash in the collection basket.  If the diocese does not get its cut, then your parish risks closure.  There are parishes run by orders, but they are few and far between and they report to the order, which reports to the Vatican.  

    Simply not giving to the collection plate doesn't seem right, either.  A parish is an organization, and if you wish membership, you should support it with money and time if you can.  How can one hold oneself from a congregation, then present oneself for Communion (whose root word is the same as that for "common"?  

    "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

    by Yamaneko2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:26:09 PM PST

  •  Sounds like a 1960's headline - not really news. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fisheye

    "The" church is the people, not the clergy. People not in religions seem to inform clergy with an authority nonexistent in the actual religion, members, or dogma. A cardinal can say whatever he wants but his authority over members is restricted to administering the sacraments and the administrivia of church property. There is no commandment to obey pastors.  

    •  That sounds more like Protestantism to me n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      houyhnhnm, kck

      Also, the RC church hierarchy tries to change the secular law and influence the government so that its vision of morality gets imposed on everyone, not just Catholics.

      American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

      by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:24:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They're free as any individuals to be political... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alexandre

        ...and as a group the RC clergy has always been pretty political. But then so what, no one either in the secular realm or in the church is compelled to convey any other power to their views as any other individual. We all try to influence here too. The church hierarchy will surely take whatever power they can get away with. They're no more influential than a union or political group.

        IMHO, the laws regarding tax exemption for religious should be way more exclusive to actual churches and the restrictions on mixing politics and religion at the altar should be far more strictly enforced. But again, clergy will breach any boundary they can get away with to be as influential at they can muster. But that's not their job. Nor do they care if it pleases the members.

    •  Not quite. The Pope, cardinals, and bishops (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharoney, Gooserock

      get to say what being Catholic means. The peeps on the ground don't. It's 100% nonsense, but that is indeed the rule of the organization.

    •  That (0+ / 0-)

      That might be your opinion but it is not Catholicism. GK Chesterton said heretics are usually right in what they affirm but miss the other half. The Church is both mystical (invisible; 'the people') and hierarchical. This is in the New Testament, the early Church, and developed organically in history.

      Your take on 'obedience' to due church authorities is a gross mischaracterization of canon law.

  •  It was only about 10 years old but I never forgot (6+ / 0-)

    My mother, British subject never did convert to my Father's Catholic religion.  His large Irish Catholic family of 10 kids was a very devout one wasn't too happy to welcome her into the family.  
    One day my mother just came back from visiting my fathers's brothers wife and she told me that my Aunt Mary who had 5 daughters that she also 4 miscarriages.  She told my mother that she just couldn't get pregnant again she just couldn't go through it again.  She went to see her parish priest in desperation and some shame to try and get him to understand that she wanted to use birth control, that her mental and physical health could not go through with another loss.  The Priest was outraged and said she thought she was above gods law, he called her a whore.  Only a whore would use birth control.
    That is a big reason my mother never converted and there were others.

    "Republicans are the party that says that government doesn't work, then they get elected and prove it."-- PJ O'Rourke

    by nocynicism on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:52:36 PM PST

  •  Every time I see the sickening opulance, (7+ / 0-)

    the huge gold ring, the crosses of gold, the obscene palaces, I want to say to those men:

    The Jesus you claim to follow was a carpenter who wore plain robes and washed the feet of the poor.  
    I think of the scene from the third Indiana Jones movie where Indy has to pick the Holy Grail out from more than a dozen other chalices, and he picks the hand-carved plain wooden cup; the cup of a carpenter.

    I was raised Catholic, but by the time I was a teenager it was quite obvious to me that the Catholic Church of today is an invention of the Dark Ages, with the Pope as King. No, I can assure you that most American Catholics do NOT care what Rome says.

    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

    by bigtimecynic on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:06:33 PM PST

    •  As a recovering Catholic, (0+ / 0-)

      the opulance never bothered me.  Dorothy Day loved those big gaudy churches as a source of inspiration.  For me, it is the same.  It was all the hypocrisy that drove me away -- and the scandal-- and the lack of love for all people.

      "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

      by Going the Distance on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:46:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We should always use (7+ / 0-)

    the word rape and not sexual abuse whenever we have the option, i.e., instead of : "In fact, 69 percent of respondents said the Vatican has done a poor job of dealing with its abuse problems." Use : "In fact, 69 percent of respondents said the Vatican has done a poor job of dealing with its RAPE AND SEXUAL TORTURE OF CHILDREN problems." Abuse sounds so benign for what the truth is.

    •  Exactly. nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LSophia, corvo

      Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

      by sturunner on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:54:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry I saw this ^^^ to late to rec it. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:02:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Probably Catholic forever..... (9+ / 0-)

    I have left "my" church on the outside, but it hasn't left me on the inside. My heart breaks every day over the hierarchy's lack of real concern for abuse victims, cover-ups protecting the abusers, lack of respect for women as priests, lack of respect for the nuns (my aunt, Sr. Corine, was faith-filled and would have been a wonderful priest), and on and on...

    But I will probably always be Catholic inside. I can't seem to choose another church. My heart and soul feels a great loss. So, I am "unchurched" and sad about that.

    •  Me too. It left us, didn't it? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LSophia, tb92, evilstorm

      I cannot support the organization in any way anymore because I believe that doing so is contrary to Christ's teachings. But it taught me to put the poor above all others, to know our connectedness to all people and nature, to respect other faiths, and to never think I'm doing enough for others.

      Try Unitarian Universalist. They respect all and you can stay Catholic on the inside if you'd like.

    •  Both the Lutheran and Episcopal churches are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LSophia

      liturgical, and are closer to the RC church than other Protestant denominations in other ways as well.

      I come from the fourth main liturgical church, Eastern Orthodoxy. Even though Protestantism is further removed from Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism is, Anglican and Lutheran worship comes across as more "natural" to me than RC worship.

      American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

      by Alexandre on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:49:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes Lutherans call themselves (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alexandre

        JV Catholics.
        Only as a joke, though.
        I have often sung along with the Pope when he does Christmas Eve masses, and fit right in with C of E Services at St. Paul's in London--the tunes and liturgy scarcely differ among the three churches.

    •  I'm so sorry (0+ / 0-)

      and I respect your grief.  But please know that the Episcopal Church would love to have you, if you're ever interested.

  •  Here's a clue Vatican boys... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alexandre, LSophia, 207wickedgood

    According to the latest polls, You ain't as bad as the folks in the US congress, but it is damn close.  

    Bread and circuses for the public.... Has worked perfectly for 2000 years to keep the great numbers of those with little power, ignoring those tiny few that have almost all of it.

    by Nebraskablue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 05:45:39 PM PST

    •  Might be hard for the left to understand (0+ / 0-)

      But public opinion polls don't tell you anything beyond what people, sometimes stupid and sometimes very wrong, believe.

      •  Except when they don't. (0+ / 0-)

        Instead of shooting sophistic spitwads at the opinion, why not articulate some honest objections to it?

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:03:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well (0+ / 0-)

          I don't know what to say. He's simply implying they're wrong because they, presumably, have low favorability ratings. But this is actually contrary to the public opinion polls we have received, where the Holy Father, the bishops AND local parish priests are all relatively popular; far more popular than Congress, and more popular than most politicians.

          The 'honest objection' is this -- when 'Catholics' are polled, sadly, 3/4 are not practicing Catholics anymore. So why should someone that never goes to Mass, doesn't believe in the Real Presence, etc., be polled as if they matter? I wish they mattered, but it's their choice not to.

          •  Short answer. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            devis1, corvo

            The 3/4 you qvetch about are still counted by the RCC.

            They are not permitted to defect, and an annullment is way easier than a debaptism.

            So, if they are still counted, they still "vote".

            There.

            Ugh. --UB.

            "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

            by unclebucky on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:01:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  sadf (0+ / 0-)
            But this is actually contrary to the public opinion polls we have received, where the Holy Father, the bishops AND local parish priests are all relatively popular; far more popular than Congress, and more popular than most politicians.
            1. Who is this "we"? Is it royal or papal?
            2. Not setting the bar terribly high, are "we"?

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 06:25:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Naw. (0+ / 0-)

        You can do better than that snippy little post.

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

        by unclebucky on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:58:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  As I said before.... (0+ / 0-)

    It's all about the SHOW.

  •  It's not gonna take 350 years (0+ / 0-)

    When the dystopian Republican Nirvana: 99% of the GDP held by 1% of the people comes to pass, the poor and downtrodden will once again turn to religion.

    The Catholic church like all organized religions is a business and doesn't have much to do with "doing unto others". They can just keep the costumes and the name and change their policies.

    •  hey look (0+ / 0-)

      It's another brainwashed post-French Revolution anti-clerical leftist. Haven't seen that before. And we're the confirmists. Dude, you are so original, and oh-so profound.

      •  I think that Luther had it right. (0+ / 0-)

        At least at the beginning. Maybe not so much later one, but no one is perfect.

        We need a Luther today to nail some theses on the door of St. Peters.

        The Cardinals need to be truthed.

        If you don't think so, that's your privilege.

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

        by unclebucky on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:03:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Three negatives in the first sentence. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kriski

    "No one could have imagined that an institution that took three and a half centuries to admit Galileo was right about the Earth not being the center of the universe might not have its finger on the pulse of its people."

    Don't believe everything you think.

    by BrianParker14 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 06:43:05 PM PST

  •  All very nice, but wake me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unclebucky

    when they stop tithing.   I know revenues are down, but surely Holy Mother Church should be on the ropes by now?

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 06:52:38 PM PST

  •  Catholic Church Sucks Bigtime... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unclebucky

    I was raised in the Catholic Church including education up to 8th grade. These days I think...Fuck the Catholic Church!
    Who cares what they demand. They are full of Shit.
    I am no longer Catholic. I'm Agnostic.
    They are in the Stone Age.

  •  a correction (0+ / 0-)

    "insurance coverage of birth control" is not what the Church is fighting against. Paying for it is.

  •  And this is why it's wrong to bash the Catholic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra Waites, Ahianne

    Church as a whole, when one actually means to call out members of the hierarchy.

    The Catholic Church isn't just the Pope (when we have one), bishops, cardinals, priests, and so forth.

    The Catholic Church is everyone who calls themselves Catholic - nuns, myself, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, etc.

    Which is why it would be correct to say that the Church as a whole is more progressive than the hierarchy.

    If life was fair, we wouldn't need unions.

    by ScottyUrb on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:02:07 PM PST

  •  Wow. The Catholic haters are out in force tonight. (0+ / 0-)

    All I know is that my parish is great.  I support my parish and will continue to do so.  

    There are plenty of progressive Catholics, and this one is getting tired of the hate here.  If the Catholic Church doesn't work for you, leave it and find something that does.  Otherwise, do like me, and work to change the things you don't like.  You don't turn around a Church overnight.  

     

    Many hands make light work, but light hearts make heavy work the lightest of all.

    by SpamNunn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:07:00 PM PST

    •  I think the criticism is aimed (4+ / 0-)

      squarely at the boys at the top in the Vatican and not at anybody in your parish or anybody else's parish.  

      The Vatican dishes out discrimination and exclusion with whatever authority it believes it still has.

      If they're going to dish it out, they better learn to take it.

    •  NO, I think it's those who disagree vehemently (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Remediator

      with the clergy and with the laity who sheepishly grovel to them.

      If your parish is great, let's hear how.

      But: "You don't turn around a Church overnight."

      It was nice in 1964. We were still recovering from years of Catechism. Finally the Vatican II things started to trickle in. Pizza and Pepsi Mass. Retreats. Action rather than Faith.

      Then came the big kabosh. That happened relatively fast. And then in the 80s and 90s, it was the big reversal. Especially after the renunciation of Liberation Theology and the murder of Oscar Romero.

      I stopped liking the RCC when it started to go back to the middle ages. The final straw symbolically was the change from "R/. And also with you." to "And with your spirit."

      Enough. And they won't even let us defect.

      Ugh. --UB.

      "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

      by unclebucky on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:10:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This hate is God. Damned. Righteous. (0+ / 0-)

      You're supposed to hate the perpetrators of evil acts - and those that commit the sin of omission by failing to stop them if not outright enabling them.

      Real Catholic-bashing is the shit done to those good Catholics (women and girls as well as kids) for decades, for centuries - not the act of finally talking about these atrocities.

      And I speak as the former youngest lector in my parish (at the age of 5, for my first grade's Mass).

      Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

      by gardnerhill on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:42:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Correct. I don't care what the RCC says... (0+ / 0-)

    about anything.

    Including architecture. Our parish church replaced a smaller and very intimate building, our quonsett hut.

    The new one is one of those wrap around versions where everyone is the same far distance from the action. It's boring and humdrum.

    And the RCC approved it.

    I'd rather have the quonsett hut.

    Ugh. --UB.

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

    by unclebucky on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:55:19 PM PST

  •  Mechanical Christians (0+ / 0-)

    This is a wonderful term I have encountered several times over the last several years. Catholics believe that the road to salvation requires faith and good works. The Catholic church has been mechanizing the faith portion over the last centuries through its rituals and dogma. Not being swift on the uptake, it just recently occurred to me that it also  has done the same thing on the good works side of the equation. Donating to the Catholic church fulfills the good works requirement. Hence, mechanical Christianity on both fronts.

    If you don't want to be kept in the dark and lathered with horse dung, stop acting like a mushroom.

    by nomorerepukes on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 05:30:47 AM PST

  •  Roman Polanski for Pope - he's the perfect choice. (0+ / 0-)

    He's old, he's Polish, and he seems to represent just what the church is about, without any pretense or subterfuge.

  •  I love American Catholics (0+ / 0-)

    They love their church but know their pope's full of .............

    People thinking for themselves, how refreshing.

    The church is lucky they love it so much.

    I ask him if he was warm enough? "Warm," he growled, "I haven't been warm since Bastogne."

    by Unrepentant Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:06:40 AM PST

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